D&D 3.5 Wizard VS Classic Dr. Strange

[ColorBlindNinja]

I've heard a lot of people say that classic Dr. Strange is capable of taking a wizard in a fight. I admit my knowledge of comics is rather limited, so I thought I'd ask the playground for a consensus on this.

I had two scenarios in mind:

-Wizard at level 20.
- Wizard at level 40 (yeah, including epic spell casting).

Assume TO for the wizard, anything short of Pun Pun and literal godhood is acceptable (Ice Assassins of gods are fair game :smallwink:).

I would encourage anyone who advocates for one side or the other to explain their reasoning for their conclusion.

[noob]

Wizard level 40 can create an infinitely negative dc spell and thus gain infinite level and infinite wealth and get infinitely far into the past.(he could already do that at level 21)
Now the thing is that both have a whole lot of random weird abilities(tons of manuals for the wizard and tons of comic books for dr strange) and that is very hard to compare.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Wizard level 40 can create an infinitely negative dc spell and thus gain infinite level and infinite wealth and get infinitely far into the past.(he could already do that at level 21)
Now the thing is that both have a whole lot of random weird abilities(tons of manuals for the wizard and tons of comic books for dr strange) and that is very hard to compare.

Out of curiosity, how would you achieve infinite mitigation?

Aside from that, I think an epic Wizard could smite Dr. Strange from his demi-plane with an epic scrying spell.

[noob]

Make a spell that needs an infinity of level 9 slots sacrificed by allied casters since you do not need to pay the cost of casting for researching a spell.


Aside from that, I think an epic Wizard could smite Dr. Strange from his demi-plane with an epic scrying spell.
now read all the comics about dr strange there might be a spell for avoiding that in the comic.
anyway if the level 20 or 40 wizard was in the comic then dr strange would have the spell or solution to avoid that situation since he is a comic book wizard.
Basically a comic book character always have a solution and the dnd wizard always have tons of tools both are similar in the fact they solve most of the problems they meet.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Make a spell that needs an infinity of level 9 slots sacrificed by allied casters since you do not need to pay the cost of casting for researching a spell.

Interesting, I never heard of that before. Just another way for epic spellcasters to break the game in half, I suppose.


now read all the comics about dr strange there might be a spell for avoiding that in the comic.
anyway if the level 20 or 40 wizard was in the comic then dr strange would have the spell or solution to avoid that situation since he is a comic book wizard.
Basically a comic book character always have a solution and the dnd wizard always have tons of tools both are similar in the fact they solve most of the problems they meet.

I think what you're describing is more narrative convenience than anything else. I think reading all the comics is a bit much, however the spell that you cast in an epic scry can be just about anything (including epic spells). Doing that from your time accelerated demi plane is a nigh foolproof way of killing almost anything.

[Quertus]

Well, I suspect Wizard 20 could defeat Dr. Strange using nothing more than Simulacrum x NI of Dr. Strange. :smalltongue:

[ColorBlindNinja]

Well, I suspect Wizard 20 could defeat Dr. Strange using nothing more than Simulacrum x NI of Dr. Strange. :smalltongue:

Ice Assassin is basically a Simulacrum 2.0, being at full strength rather than half. There's no HD limit on Ice Assassin either.

[Psyren]

Well, I suspect Wizard 20 could defeat Dr. Strange using nothing more than Simulacrum x NI of Dr. Strange. :smalltongue:

The issue though is that heroes like Strange and Flash aren't actually wizards, they're clerics. Meaning that their power source is ultimately something external to themselves with a will of its own. So you can clone Strange, but what you get wouldn't actually be the Sorcerer Supreme of this dimension, as only one entity can (usually) wear that title. What happens at that point would be up to the writer, but would probably involve any imposters no longer existing and Strange victorious.

Not saying you couldn't beat him - just not the typical TO way of throwing an Aleax or IA at him.

[ColorBlindNinja]

The issue though is that heroes like Strange and Flash aren't actually wizards, they're clerics. Meaning that their power source is ultimately something external to themselves with a will of its own. So you can clone Strange, but what you get wouldn't actually be the Sorcerer Supreme of this dimension, as only one entity can (usually) wear that title. What happens at that point would be up to the writer, but would probably involve any imposters no longer existing and Strange victorious.

Not saying you couldn't beat him - just not the typical TO way of throwing an Aleax or IA at him.

Would Ice Assassin work on a D&D Cleric? RAW I should think so. If it does work, would that be a sufficient precedent for it to create a full fledged copy of Dr. Strange?

It's hardly a huge deal if it doesn't; it's not as if D&D wizards are hurting for options.

[Inevitability]

Assuming there's comic-D&D magic transparency, I don't see why a wizard couldn't just drop an AMF (make it planet-wide at epic levels) and kill Strange using some of the ways to get around AMFs. Even in a straight-up fistfight the wizard might stand a reasonable chance: D&D characters are notoriously resilient after all.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Assuming there's comic-D&D magic transparency, I don't see why a wizard couldn't just drop an AMF (make it planet-wide at epic levels) and kill Strange using some of the ways to get around AMFs. Even in a straight-up fistfight the wizard might stand a reasonable chance: D&D characters are notoriously resilient after all.

- Without some sort of transparency, this match would be kinda pointless.

- I would use selective AMF for extra LOLZ. Unless Dr. Strange has some sort of ability to act Dead Magic Zones, this should work.

[Tainted_Scholar]

Dweomer of Transference should make the Wizard immune to all of Strange's spells.

What kind of protections does Strange have.

[noob]

His cape is definitively a Cloaker monk/a bunch of prcs who have been enchanted(I mean look at how this cape attacks people it is surely a cloaker).

[The_Jette]

Dweomer of Transference should make the Wizard immune to all of Strange's spells.

What kind of protections does Strange have.

Well, his arsenal includes protective amulets gathered over millenia by previous Sorcerer Supremes, plus the ability to call on a few Gods for added protection. Also, Marvel doesn't really handle spells the same way that D&D does. Strange can protect himself from spells in general, not just low level spells. He protected himself, and a number of others, from a spell that altered all of reality during the M-Day event, which removed mutant powers from 98% of mutants. He regularly fights entities that encompass entire realities, and are essentially gods. Plus, his most common enemy is Mephisto, who is essentially the devil in the Marvel universe. Unfortunately, there's no Marvel/D&D comparison sheet that we can look to for classification. So, this question is going to come down to:
"Wizard does x"
"Strange wouldn't even be affected by x. And, he could do y."
"You obviously don't know how powerful x is or you wouldn't say that."
"Your argument is bad and you should feel bad."

[Psyren]

Would Ice Assassin work on a D&D Cleric? RAW I should think so. If it does work, would that be a sufficient precedent for it to create a full fledged copy of Dr. Strange?

You can copy a cleric just fine. But his deity can simply withhold all spells from the copy. It might even immediately fall.


It's hardly a huge deal if it doesn't; it's not as if D&D wizards are hurting for options.

That's basically what I said - it's not auto-loss, you'd just need some other strategy (for a change.)

[ColorBlindNinja]

Well, his arsenal includes protective amulets gathered over millenia by previous Sorcerer Supremes, plus the ability to call on a few Gods for added protection. Also, Marvel doesn't really handle spells the same way that D&D does. Strange can protect himself from spells in general, not just low level spells.

Between Selective AMF and Dweomer of Transference, the wizard is virtually immune to magic too.

How is Dr. Strange's physical resistance? Also, I was under the impression that it takes some time for Strange to bind with some of his god friends. If that's the case how long would that take?

[Nifft]

Player: "Dungeon Master! I've come to bargain!"

DM: "Rocks fall. You die."

Player: "Okay, I make a new character just like the previous one. Dungeon Master! I've come to bargain!"

DM: "God damn it."

[ColorBlindNinja]

You can copy a cleric just fine. But his deity can simply withhold all spells from the copy. It might even immediately fall.
I'd say that falls under the DM's purview, as RAW is ambiguous.



That's basically what I said - it's not auto-loss, you'd just need some other strategy (for a change.)
Ice Assassin spam is kinda boring anyway.

[Florian]

Dr. Strange will always win. Why? he´s a narrative character that will always find a solution to anything, while the D&D Wizard is a rules construct where the player will sift thru available rules options to find a combo that will break the game. The former always wins, as it doesn´t have to care for the rules. Period.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Dr. Strange will always win. Why? he´s a narrative character that will always find a solution to anything, while the D&D Wizard is a rules construct where the player will sift thru available rules options to find a combo that will break the game. The former always wins, as it doesn´t have to care for the rules. Period.

Again, that's narrative convenience.

I want to know if Strange can win with just his preexisting abilities.

[Tainted_Scholar]

Dr. Strange will always win. Why? he´s a narrative character that will always find a solution to anything, while the D&D Wizard is a rules construct where the player will sift thru available rules options to find a combo that will break the game. The former always wins, as it doesn´t have to care for the rules. Period.

That's not how Vs. works. We are suppose to compare the preexisting power and abilities of the characters and determine a victor. Claiming that a narrative character would always win against a rule construct doesn't make sense in a number of scenarios, like if there's a huge power gap between the two characters.

Additionally, Strange has lost fights before, so there's no reason to assume that he would beat the Wizard.

[INoKnowNames]

Rhetorical Question: Why is it that, on this forum in particular, the first thing people want to do when something gets popular is figure out how to kill it or stat it (typically so that it can be killed or used to kill)? :smalltongue:

[noob]

Ice assassin out every entity from the marvel multiverse and then make those new entities help your ice assassin of doctor strange and also ice assassin the authors of dr strange and make them write a comic book of how your dr strange beat the non ice assassin dr strange?

[ColorBlindNinja]

Ice assassin out every entity from the marvel multiverse and then make those new entities help your ice assassin of doctor strange and also ice assassin the authors of dr strange and make them write a comic book of how your dr strange beat the non ice assassin dr strange?

Waaaaay too convoluted.

You'd be better off just dominating the author and having them write a book where the wizard wins.

[Florian]

Again, that's narrative convenience.

I want to know if Strange can win with just his preexisting abilities.

Strange is pretty close to an PF Psychic when it comes to abilities. As this, he´s close to using the full rules based on Occult Adventures, something a regular arcane caster doesn´t have defenses against, especially when Psychic Duels and the Akashic come into it.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Strange is pretty close to an PF Psychic when it comes to abilities. As this, he´s close to using the full rules based on Occult Adventures, something a regular arcane caster doesn´t have defenses against, especially when Psychic Duels and the Akashic come into it.

Wouldn't Mind Blank protect against a psychic duel?

I'm unfamiliar with Akashic, you'll have to elaborate.

Edit: I think you may be underestimating the sheer volume of immunities that wizards can have.

[Tainted_Scholar]

Strange is pretty close to an PF Psychic when it comes to abilities. As this, he´s close to using the full rules based on Occult Adventures, something a regular arcane caster doesn´t have defenses against, especially when Psychic Duels and the Akashic come into it.

Wouldn't Psychic abilities be classified as psionics? Because Dweomer of Transference makes you immune to psionics.

EDIT; Also an AMF should work just fine.

[Psyren]

I want to know if Strange can win with just his preexisting abilities.

His "pre-existing abilities" can literally be anything depending on the writer. More importantly, he has multiple artifacts in his possession that only work for him, which would allow him to ignore defenses like AMF and DoT.

[Florian]

Wouldn't Psychic abilities be classified as psionics? Because Dweomer of Transference makes you immune to psionics.

EDIT; Also an AMF should work just fine.

Missing the point. There´s no psionic-magic divide in PF, but there´re abilities that you can´t have a defense against, as those explicitly call out that nothing can prevent them, ever.

Edit: Psychic Duels are underrated, as is the ability to create Mindscapes with individual planar traits.

[Tainted_Scholar]

His "pre-existing abilities" can literally be anything depending on the writer.

No, his "pre-existing abilities" are abilities he's already been shown to have.


More importantly, he has multiple artifacts in his possession that only work for him, which would allow him to ignore defenses like AMF and DoT.

How?

[Psyren]

No, his "pre-existing abilities" are abilities he's already been shown to have.

Like being able to rewrite reality? Steal the abilities of other spellcasters? Shown abilities like that?


How?

"Artifacts and deities are unaffected by mortal magic such as this."

[Florian]

You don´t have to go as heavy-handed as the artifacts rules, it´s enough to go with Mindscapes that are able to simply shut down stuff like AMF as part of their individual planar traits.

[ColorBlindNinja]

"Artifacts and deities are unaffected by mortal magic such as this."

The term "Artifact" in this context purely a D&D term. In other settings, the tools of the gods may or may not be immune to such things. That also doesn't cover Dweomer of Transference, since the line of text you quoted only refers to AMF.

Has Dr. Strange's gear been shut down of AMFs in his own setting?

[Scots Dragon]

Rhetorical Question: Why is it that, on this forum in particular, the first thing people want to do when something gets popular is figure out how to kill it or stat it (typically so that it can be killed or used to kill)? :smalltongue:

A really fun fact is that Doctor Strange has stats in the old TSR Marvel Super Heroes Role-Playing Game, the one that used the FASERIP system. He can basically reproduce any power you can think of more or less at will by virtue of the fact that he has them as spells.

[Mato]

Artifacts and deities are unaffected by mortal magic such as this.

Dr. Strange can also channel the virtually unlimited energy of nigh-omnipotent mystical and non-mystical beings--known as Principalities--to empower his spells. This can take the form of stating what he wants to occur. This ability to be a conduit to multi-versal power sources has given rise to the phrase "Dr. Strange is as powerful as the god he invokes". He is quite capable of utilizing power that is considered "black magic", though he tends to do so only under extreme exigency. Though he rarely has, he can absorb the power of even a cosmic or semi-deity entity. Doctor Strange has a pact with Eternity possibly allowing him to live as long as the Ancient One and others before him have.

Also Dr Strange has his own version of ice assassin, except he can cast more than two spells every six seconds. He can also, through a force of will and not a spell, steal the powers of any other entity. He uses this ability against Captain Universe as well as against Arioch and Shuma-Gorath in Strange Tales Vol 2 and Strange also uses this to drain the Wrecking Crew of the Asgardian magic they had been infused by Karnilla.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Snip

That doesn't tell me much as "nigh-omnipotent" is rather vague.

Can you give me some more notable abilities that Strange has displayed?

[Tainted_Scholar]

Like being able to rewrite reality? Steal the abilities of other spellcasters? Shown abilities like that?

Yes, but first I'd like a bit more information as to how said powers work. If it's a spell then it would be stopped by DoT.



Also Dr Strange has his own version of ice assassin, except he can cast more than two spells every six seconds.

The wizard can just attack from his fast flowing demi-plane where every Planck second in the normal planes is equal to a billion years in the demi plane.

[Florian]

Has Dr. Strange's gear been shut down of AMFs in his own setting?

No and why should that happen? He could always channel any god and recreate the setting rules all by himself.

[SimonMoon6]

He regularly fights entities that encompass entire realities, and are essentially gods. Plus, his most common enemy is Mephisto, who is essentially the devil in the Marvel universe.

He was also defeated by Plantman. Friggin' Plantman of all people. And it wasn't a long fight. Plant Man one-shotted Dr. Strange. (I think it was in Defenders #37.) Plantman's just a guy with plant-based weaponry. And not, like, cool weaponry or anything.

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/a/img28/2302/defend6.jpg
https://cryptobotanicalfindings.files.wordpress.com/2015/07/defenders-36_003.jpg?w=584

[ColorBlindNinja]

No and why should that happen? He could always channel any god and recreate the setting rules all by himself.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. I meant has Dr. Strange ever encountered an AMF in his own comics.

[Mato]

The wizard can just attack from his fast flowing demi-plane where every Planck second in the normal planes is equal to a billion years in the demi plane.Genesis doesn't let the wizard create his own fast time plane and Dr Strange can freely travel through time, it doesn't even matter if the wizard gets ten quadrillion actions per minute on Earth because Dr Strange can spend an eternity in the moment before them even after they occur.

[Tainted_Scholar]

He was also defeated by Plantman. Friggin' Plantman of all people. And it wasn't a long fight. Plant Man one-shotted Dr. Strange. (I think it was in Defenders #37.) Plantman's just a guy with plant-based weaponry. And not, like, cool weaponry or anything.

So a druid could definitely win then.:smallbiggrin:

[Florian]

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. I meant has Dr. Strange ever encountered an AMF in his own comics.

Yes, and simply ignored it.

Don´t get to hung up on D&D Wizards, that´s not a high-powered game. We talk Dr. Strange, we talk Mage or Ars Magicka.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Genesis doesn't let the wizard create his own fast time plane and Dr Strange can freely travel through time, it doesn't even matter if the wizard gets ten quadrillion actions per minute on Earth because Dr Strange can spend an eternity in the moment before them even after they occur.

Genesis does indeed let the wizard create his own fast time plane.

Can you give me some sort of citation for Strange's time mastery? Can he affect some one while "spending an eternity in the moment"?

Because assassinating someone from a fasting flowing demi plane is easy for a wizard to accomplish. They can even use planar bubble to bring their planar trait with them.


Yes, and simply ignored it.

Don´t get to hung up on D&D Wizards, that´s not a high-powered game. We talk Dr. Strange, we talk Mage or Ars Magicka.

I really don't understand what you're saying. I also think you underestimate just how powerful a D&D wizard is.

[Tainted_Scholar]

Yes, and simply ignored it.

Okay then.

[Malroth]

Or a Megaman Robot

Random text to extend the legnth of this post

[Tainted_Scholar]

it doesn't even matter if the wizard gets ten quadrillion actions per minute on Earth because Dr Strange can spend an eternity in the moment before them even after they occur.

Actually, I believe you could make a demi-plane that's infinitely faster than the normal planes. Which would give the Wizard infinite actions.

[Florian]

Actually, I believe you could make a demi-plane that's infinitely faster than the normal planes. Which would give the Wizard infinite actions.

No. Because the Wizard lacks the ability to use both at the same time.

[Tainted_Scholar]

No. Because the Wizard lacks the ability to use both at the same time.

What do you mean?

[Mato]

Genesis does indeed let the wizard create his own fast time plane.[citation needed] But here, I have it for you. "Unless otherwise noted in a description, every plane in the D&D cosmology has the normal time trait." ~DMG.


Can you give me some sort of citation for Strange's time mastery? Can he affect some one while "spending an eternity in the moment"?His comics and the film that came out last year that made over six hundred million dollars and was kind of a pretty big deal. You should watch it some time, Kaecilius was even able to pull him self into a reverse time stream which if you think about it should be pretty impossible without some kind of temporal sense immune to any form of time manipulation and the ability to instantly jump any another spellcaster's spell effect. And that's pretty mild compared to Dr Strange's comics.

[Florian]

What do you mean?

The ability to create your own no-time demi-plane is worthless compared to the ability to pull someone in a demi-plane with rules of your own choosing (no save).

[noob]

Like I said there is still solutions involving getting the author to write how your wizard beat dr strange.
One simple solution is to just mind control it or replace the author by an ice assassin of him.
Alternatively get him in a basket-weaving contest without magic and win using your stupidly high rank in basket-weaving(in the dr strange comics I am quite sure that dr strange is a super cool doctor and a wizard but was he shown as having a lot of training in basket weaving?)?
It was never said that the vs had to be done by killing the other.

[Tainted_Scholar]

[citation needed] But here, I have it for you. "Unless otherwise noted in a description, every plane in the D&D cosmology has the normal time trait." ~DMG.

Genesis. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/genesis.htm)

"The spellcaster determines the environment within the demiplane when he or she first casts genesis, reflecting most any desire the spellcaster can visualize."

Time is a planar trait.

And then in Psionic Genesis.

"You can’t manipulate the time trait on your demiplane; its time trait is as the Material Plane."

A line which is strangely absent from normal genesis. Meaning that normal Genesis can indeed manipulate the time flow of the demiplane.

[Psyren]

The term "Artifact" in this context purely a D&D term. In other settings, the tools of the gods may or may not be immune to such things. That also doesn't cover Dweomer of Transference, since the line of text you quoted only refers to AMF.

Has Dr. Strange's gear been shut down of AMFs in his own setting?

Hold on now, you can't have your cake and eat it. Either terms have D&D definitions or they don't. So if "artifact" doesn't have its D&D definition, neither does "spell", and so Dweomer won't do jack and perhaps even AMF won't.

Unless of course the parameters of this contest are "everything is defined in such a way as to make the wizard win."

[ColorBlindNinja]

[citation needed] But here, I have it for you. "Unless otherwise noted in a description, every plane in the D&D cosmology has the normal time trait." ~DMG.
Time is a planar trait. Genesis lets you choose whatever planar trait you want. This include fast time.


His comics and the film that came out last year that made over six hundred million dollars and was kind of a pretty big deal. You should watch it some time, Kaecilius was even able to pull him self into a reverse time stream which if you think about it should be pretty impossible without some kind of temporal sense immune to any form of time manipulation and the ability to instantly jump any another spellcaster's spell effect. And that's pretty mild compared to Dr Strange's comics.
D&D wizards are immune to time effects thanks to Selective Temporal Repair. Celerity + Foresight means that the wizard can act before any combatants he faces.


The ability to create your own no-time demi-plane is worthless compared to the ability to pull someone in a demi-plane with rules of your own choosing (no save).
You can attack your opponent from you demi plane or force the rules of your demi plane on the universe you inhabit.


Hold on now, you can't have your cake and eat it. Either terms have D&D definitions or they don't. So if "artifact" doesn't have its D&D definition, neither does "spell", and so Dweomer won't do jack and perhaps even AMF won't.

That's a rather bizarre argument. "Spell" is a pretty general term, while I cannot think of another work of fiction that has the same definition of "artifact" that D&D does.

Edit: This is akin to claiming that D&D gods are immune to disintegration, so all gods in other works of fiction must be too.

[Tainted_Scholar]

The ability to create your own no-time demi-plane is worthless compared to the ability to pull someone in a demi-plane with rules of your own choosing (no save).

How exactly is Strange suppose to drag the Wizard into his Demi-Plane when the Wizard is going to just to use Celerity then Plane Shift to head to her Demi-Plane as soon as the fight starts.


Hold on now, you can't have your cake and eat it. Either terms have D&D definitions or they don't. So if "artifact" doesn't have its D&D definition, neither does "spell", and so Dweomer won't do jack and perhaps even AMF won't.

It really doesn't matter if we use D&D definitions or not. The Wizard can just snipe Strange from her Demi-Plane.

[Florian]

That's a rather bizarre argument. "Spell" is a pretty general term, while I cannot think of another work of fiction that has the same definition of "artifact" that D&D does.

No, you can´t. As Psyren pointed out, you have to go with the standard rules or you play a different game.

Edit: And the answer is still a Psychic Duel. I want to, I do and I set the conditions.

[Psyren]

That's a rather bizarre argument. "Spell" is a pretty general term, while I cannot think of another work of fiction that has the same definition of "artifact" that D&D does.

D&D's definition of artifact is quite widespread actually. "Any magic item that is beyond mortals to make" sums it up. I assure you, there's plenty of fiction that could fit, including that of Strange himself.

[Tainted_Scholar]

What if the reason D&D artifacts are immune to AMf is a trait of the artifact and not the AMF?

[Florian]

D&D's definition of artifact is quite widespread actually. "Any magic item that is beyond mortals to make" sums it up. I assure you, there's plenty of fiction that could fit, including that of Strange himself.

Let´s not dance around the point. D&D uses "in" and "out" mechanics. Artifacts are a case of "out" mechanics that simply are not covered by the rules, because there is no interaction that has to be covered, simple as that.


What if the reason D&D artifacts are immune to AMf is a trait of the artifact and not the AMF?

It´s the other way around. Things like AMF only cover "minor" magic and ignore the rest, while things like Artifacts cover "major" magic that mortals never can reach.

[noob]

So any item who can be made by a god is not an artefact since a mortal can make an ice assassin of a god and since gods get the ability to create artefacts(written in gods and demigods) then there is no artefacts?(since anything a god can make can be made by a mortal who makes an ice assassin of that god)
I guess that means that artefacts is a non issue since they do not exists due to their definition and the ability of gods to make any artefact and the ability of mortals to make copies of gods.

[ColorBlindNinja]

D&D's definition of artifact is quite widespread actually. "Any magic item that is beyond mortals to make" sums it up. I assure you, there's plenty of fiction that could fit, including that of Strange himself.

I was referring to the its interaction with AMFs.

It really doesn't matter that much if we assume that Dr. Strange's gear are D&D artifacts or not.

[Psyren]

So any item who can be made by a god is not an artefact since a mortal can make an ice assassin of a god and since gods get the ability to create artefacts(written in gods and demigods) then there is no artefacts?

You're affirming the consequent here. What if the real answer to your hypothetical is that ice assassins of gods are actually not possible? It's commonly brought up as a TO exercise, but we have no record of any printed wizard actually doing it.


I was referring to the its interaction with AMFs.

I'm aware.


It really doesn't matter that much if we assume that Dr. Strange's gear are D&D artifacts or not.

The text of AMF seems to differ.

[ColorBlindNinja]

You're affirming the consequent here. What if the real answer to your hypothetical is that ice assassins of gods are actually not possible? It's commonly brought up as a TO exercise, but we have no record of any printed wizard actually doing it.

That's irrelevant. We'd have to throw out half the rules if we only accepted printed material.

[Psyren]

That's irrelevant. We'd have to throw out half the rules if we only accepted printed material.

But if you allow homebrew then no contest has meaning.

[Florian]

So any item who can be made by a god is not an artefact since a mortal can make an ice assassin of a god and since gods get the ability to create artefacts(written in gods and demigods) then there is no artefacts?(since anything a god can make can be made by a mortal who makes an ice assassin of that god)
I guess that means that artefacts is a non issue since they do not exists due to their definition and the ability of gods to make any artefact and the ability of mortals to make copies of gods.

Who cares about Ice Assassin? You mention that spell outside theoretical discussions, you ether get a fist to your face or get thrown out of your group, easy as that.

[noob]

Well ice assassins of gods from the manual gods and demigods is definitively possible: they are creatures and they never got any immunity to that spell nor anything suggesting that this spell would not work on them.

"Who cares about Ice Assassin? You mention that spell outside theoretical discussions, you ether get a fist to your face or get thrown out of your group, easy as that. "
well the thread creator did allow TO as long as it was not directly pun pun and beyond.
to quote:


Assume TO for the wizard, anything short of Pun Pun and literal godhood is acceptable (Ice Assassins of gods are fair game ).

[Tainted_Scholar]

The text of AMF seems to differ.

I'm pretty sure he meant it didn't matter in the grand scheme of things.

[ColorBlindNinja]

But if you allow homebrew then no contest has meaning.

I can only assume I misunderstood what you meant by "printed material". Could you clarify?


I'm pretty sure he meant it didn't matter in the grand scheme of things.

This is correct.

[Florian]

I'm pretty sure he meant it didn't matter in the grand scheme of things.

No. AMF just deals with the "small fry" and can't affect the "major league". Go from there.

[Tainted_Scholar]

No. AMF just deals with the "small fry" and can't affect the "major league". Go from there.

Whether or not AMF works doesn't really matter. The Wizard can still win by snipping from her Demi-Plane.

[ColorBlindNinja]

No. AMF just deals with the "small fry" and can't affect the "major league". Go from there.

This is incorrect. AMF can effect epic magic, and it and the dispel magic line are the only spells that explicitly do not work against gods and artifacts. There's also Identify and Co, but meh.

[Psyren]

I can only assume I misunderstood what you meant by "printed material". Could you clarify?

3.5 D&D rulebooks. You said "3.5 wizard" correct?

[ColorBlindNinja]

3.5 D&D rulebooks. You said "3.5 wizard" correct?

In that case it's more of an implication than Ice Assassin coming out and saying that you can create god duplicates. The spell lists no limits, unlike Simulacrum.

[Florian]

Whether or not AMF works doesn't really matter. The Wizard can still win by snipping from her Demi-Plane.

And no. The Wizard simply dies, accelerated with a no-time demi-plane. That´s simply the way it is.

[ColorBlindNinja]

And no. The Wizard simply dies, accelerated with a no-time demi-plane. That´s simply the way it is.

Can you prove that?

[Psyren]

In that case it's more of an implication than Ice Assassin coming out and saying that you can create god duplicates. The spell lists no limits, unlike Simulacrum.

I'm not saying it's totally impossible, just that noob was arguing incorrectly. "I am a mortal who can make Ice Assassins of gods and gods can make artifacts, therefore artifacts aren't real" is faulty logic. There are several places that particular train can go off the rails.

[Tainted_Scholar]

And no. The Wizard simply dies, accelerated with a no-time demi-plane. That´s simply the way it is.

What the Hickel is a No-Time Demi-Plane? Where did it come from? Why is affecting the Wizard? What's stop the Wizard from just plane shifting away to her own demi-plane?

[ColorBlindNinja]

I'm not saying it's totally impossible, just that noob was arguing incorrectly. "I am a mortal who can make Ice Assassins of gods and gods can make artifacts, therefore artifacts aren't real" is faulty logic. There are several places that particular train can go off the rails.

I would agree with that assessment.

Worth noting, having Ice Assassin gods make artifacts for you could be useful, as artifacts can mimic epic spells.

[Florian]

Can you prove that?

Sure. But first read up on the Psychic Duel rules I mention, then we can talk details.


What the Hickel is a No-Time Demi-Plane? Where did it come from? Why is affecting the Wizard? What's stop the Wizard from just plane shifting away to her own demi-plane?

Weird. I´m a Fighter guy and have to hand out tips what a Wizard can do. The gist is to create your own demi-plane with the no-time planar trait, so no time passes and your buffs never run out. You use Astral Projection in this state to be where the action is.

[Psyren]

I would agree with that assessment.

Worth noting, having Ice Assassin gods make artifacts for you could be useful, as artifacts can mimic epic spells.

It's just as valid logic to conclude that either (a) Ice Assassin gods are actually impossible (a debate this thread has precluded temporarily) or (b) that Ice Assassins of gods can't actually make artifacts. Or some other conclusion that upholds the RAW that artifacts are beyond the means of any mortal to make.

[Tainted_Scholar]

Weird. I´m a Fighter guy and have to hand out tips what a Wizard can do. The gist is to create your own demi-plane with the no-time planar trait, so no time passes and your buffs never run out. You use Astral Projection in this state to be where the action is.

But I'm not talking about a No-Time demi-plane. I'm talking about an infinitely fast time demi-plane. The Wizard can just use Love's Pain to attack Strange with infinite actions.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Sure. But first read up on the Psychic Duel rules I mention, then we can talk details.

How are PF rules relevant in this battle? Dr. Strange is a comic book character.

Psychic Duels are supernatural, and thus wouldn't bypass and AMF. Also, the wizard would simply retreat to her demi plane before Strange could act. No duel would take place and, the wizard would simply use the Love's Pain Mind Rape combo to kill him.


It's just as valid logic to conclude that either (a) Ice Assassin gods are actually impossible (a debate this thread has precluded temporarily) or (b) that Ice Assassins of gods can't actually make artifacts. Or some other conclusion that upholds the RAW that artifacts are beyond the means of any mortal to make.

Why? Ice Assassins of gods are still gods. They're the ones creating the artifact, not you.

[Tainted_Scholar]

It's just as valid logic to conclude that either (a) Ice Assassin gods are actually impossible (a debate this thread has precluded temporarily) or (b) that Ice Assassins of gods can't actually make artifacts. Or some other conclusion that upholds the RAW that artifacts are beyond the means of any mortal to make.

The Ice Assassin would have the necessary feat to create an Artifact, so there's no reason why it wouldn't be able to. Also the mortal isn't creating the Artifact, the Ice Assassin is.

[Florian]

But I'm not talking about a No-Time demi-plane. I'm talking about an infinitely fast time demi-plane. The Wizard can just use Love's Pain to attack Strange with infinite actions.

No, he can´t. First, there´s no "infinitely fast time" planar trait, so you´ve got to house-rule than and how it interacts, second you´ve gotta actually be there to cast that spell, as it requires LoS/LoE.

[Psyren]

The Ice Assassin would have the necessary feat to create an Artifact, so there's no reason why it wouldn't be able to. Also the mortal isn't creating the Artifact, the Ice Assassin is.

I think you mean Salient Divine Ability. Also that would be indirect creation by the mortal since the Ice Assassin wouldn't do so on its own.

Regardless, we've covered Ice Assassin itself (you can clone Strange but the clone wouldn't be Sorcerer Supreme), AMF (Strange has artifacts) and Dweomer (Strange has magic that doesn't come from his spells, for example the aforementioned artifacts.) What else you got?

[Florian]

What else you got?

Nothing besides wanting the Wizard to be OP. Pathetic.

[Tainted_Scholar]

No, he can´t. First, there´s no "infinitely fast time" planar trait, so you´ve got to house-rule

No it isn't a house rule. I can decide the speed of the time flow, and there's not limitations on how fast I can make it.



second you´ve gotta actually be there to cast that spell, as it requires LoS/LoE.

I'm not casting Love's Pain on Strange, I'm casting it one the oustider I bound and mind raped to love Strange.


I think you mean Salient Divine Ability. Also that would be indirect creation by the mortal since the Ice Assassin wouldn't do so on its own.

:smallconfused:Huh?

Look the reason mortals can't create artifacts is because they can't qualify for the ability that creates Artifacts.


What else you got?

Snipping him with Love's Pain from a Demi-Plane.

[ColorBlindNinja]

I think you mean Salient Divine Ability. Also that would be indirect creation by the mortal since the Ice Assassin wouldn't do so on its own.

I think this is just semantics, but this argument is going nowhere, so I'll drop it.


Regardless, we've covered Ice Assassin itself (you can clone Strange but the clone wouldn't be Sorcerer Supreme), AMF (Strange has artifacts) and Dweomer (Strange has magic that doesn't come from his spells, for example the aforementioned artifacts.) What else you got?

- With Hide Life (Eschew Materials to bypass the component) the wizard can't die. Add in Favor of the Martyr to bypass the staggered side effect Hide Life may bring.

- The wizard can attack from a fast flowing demi plane with almost zero risk to herself.

- Kissed by the Ages (cast by an Ice Assassin) means the wizard can't die of old age.

-Forced Dream + Teleport Through Time allows the wizard to erase her timeline to prevent Terminator style time travel shenanigans.

That's not including other spells like Mind Blank, Ghost Form, Death Ward, ect.

Edit: Toss in Delay Death and Beastland Ferocity for good measure. They combo beautifully with Hide Life.

[Psyren]

Snipping him with Love's Pain from a Demi-Plane.

Who would qualify? And being immune to damage is trivial for both parties.



- With Hide Life (Eschew Materials to bypass the component) the wizard can't die. Add in Favor of the Martyr to bypass the staggered side effect Hide Life may bring.

There are a ton of fates worse than death as any wizard would know. Dropping you off in the Far Realm without your powers for instance.



- The wizard can attack from a fast flowing demi plane with almost zero risk to herself.

More on this later (see below)



- Kissed by the Ages (cast by an Ice Assassin) means the wizard can't die of old age.

Ok.



-Forced Dream + Teleport Through Time allows the wizard to erase her timeline to prevent Terminator style time travel shenanigans.

Putting the obvious paradox aside, wouldn't that just erase the fact that you teleported through time?



That's not including other spells like Mind Blank, Ghost Form, Death Ward, ect.


Every last one of these has holes and/or is dispellable.


On the fast time demiplane stuff: that tactic really only works if your foe is on the material themselves. Strange is constantly astral projecting (Astral is timeless (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm#theAstralPlane), so no amount of time ratio will beat it), and even if he weren't, his sanctum is on multiple planes at once too, including several with fast time traits of their own.

[Tainted_Scholar]

Who would qualify? And being immune to damage is trivial for both parties.


How is Strange going to make himself immune to Damage?


There are a ton of fates worse than death as any wizard would know. Dropping you off in the Far Realm without your powers for instance.

How is suppose to take away the Wizard's Powers?


On the fast time demiplane stuff: that tactic really only works if your foe is on the material themselves. Strange is constantly astral projecting (Astral is timeless (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm#theAstralPlane), so no amount of time ratio will beat it),

That's the D&D Astral Plane though. Strange's Astral Projection works differently.


so no amount of time ratio will beat it), and even if he weren't, his sanctum is on multiple planes at once too, including several with fast time traits of their own.

Unless any of his sanctums have an infinitely faster time flow, I think the Wizard has the advantage, because every second in the normal planes is equal to an infinite years on her Demi-Plane.

[JNAProductions]

Yeah. Strange is powerful, but he's meant to be challenged and the readers are meant to believe he might fail.

D&D Wizards, at high TO... They're not like that.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Who would qualify?

That's what Mind Rape is for, it can explicitly induce emotions.



There are a ton of fates worse than death as any wizard would know. Dropping you off in the Far Realm without your powers for instance.

How does Strange do that exactly?



Putting the obvious paradox aside, wouldn't that just erase the fact that you teleported through time?
Forced Dream is reality warping, your timeline never existed.



Every last one of these has holes and/or is dispellable.

You can make most of your buffs supernatural. What holes are you referring to?


On the fast time demiplane stuff: that tactic really only works if your foe is on the material themselves. Strange is constantly astral projecting (Astral is timeless (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm#theAstralPlane), so no amount of time ratio will beat it), and even if he weren't, his sanctum is on multiple planes at once too, including several with fast time traits of their own.

Doesn't Strange leave his body vulnerable while he's astral projecting? As Tainted Scholar pointed out, the wizard's demi plane will probably be faster.

Can Strange attack across planes, and if so how does that work?

[Psyren]

How is Strange going to make himself immune to Damage?



How is suppose to take away the Wizard's Powers?

He can take the powers of gods through force of will. He rarely does this as it is considered taboo/black magic, but the option is there.



That's the D&D Astral Plane though. Strange's Astral Projection works differently.

You're having your cake and eating it again. If Strange's Astral is different and his Artifacts are different, his spells must be different too. There's no point to this discussion if every definition is "whichever one favors the wizard."


Unless any of his sanctums have an infinitely faster time flow, I think the Wizard has the advantage, because every second in the normal planes is equal to an infinite years on her Demi-Plane.

No time at all would count as "inifinitely fast."


That's what Mind Rape is for, it can explicitly induce emotions.

You would have to mindrape Strange himself to make him feel emotions that aren't there.



Forced Dream is reality warping, your timeline never existed.

And therefore neither did you?



You can make most of your buffs supernatural. What holes are you referring to?

Death Ward for instance doesn't make you immune to death, merely death effects. Mind Blank doesn't make you immune to will saves. Holes like that.



Doesn't Strange leave his body vulnerable while he's astral projecting? As Tainted Scholar pointed out, the wizard's demi plane will probably be faster.

Can Strange attack across planes, and if so how does that work?

How would a god do it?

[JNAProductions]

Mind Rape any random person into loving Strange, then Love's Pain that person.

No MR on Strange needed at all.

[Scots Dragon]

That's what Mind Rape is for, it can explicitly induce emotions.

Who someone thinks their loved one is by virtue of a spell that explicitly creates falsehoods, and who the actual loved one is, is quite a considerable difference. Especially since these changes can be reversed to normality by use of various methods. I'd personally rule that the creature's original true loved one is whoever would be affected by the spell, because that would fit the themes going on. It's a textbook example of sympathetic magic, and all sympathetic magic requires an actual genuine connection; it cannot be falsified.

Also 35 hit points for 3.5 intelligence points is hardly an efficient way of killing someone.

[ColorBlindNinja]

He can take the powers of gods through force of will. He rarely does this as it is considered taboo/black magic, but the option is there.

So it would be out of character for him to do so.



You're having your cake and eating it again. If Strange's Astral is different and his Artifacts are different, his spells must be different too. There's no point to this discussion if every definition is "whichever one favors the wizard."
His spells might be different. But just because they both have the same name doesn't mean that they're the same plane. Unless there is evidence that Strange's astral plane is timeless, why would we imagine it to be?



No time at all would count as "inifinitely fast."

Then both parties would experience time at the same rate.



You would have to mindrape Strange himself to make him feel emotions that aren't there.

I don't need Strange to feel anything. All I need is to Mind Rape some hapless commoner and then cast the spell on them. Strange will take unavoidable damage.


And therefore neither did you?

No. The caster is unaffected by the disappearance of the timeline. Forced Dream resets everything back to the beginning of your turn. You travel to the universes beginning, head back to the present and then activate it. There's nothing in the power description that would imply paradoxes are an issue. It was all just a dream.


Death Ward for instance doesn't make you immune to death, merely death effects. Mind Blank doesn't make you immune to will saves. Holes like that.

Hide Life does make you immune to death. Between True Seeing and Mind Blank, what will saves are going to be an issue?



How would a god do it?

I'm not sure I understand what you mean.


Who someone thinks their loved one is by virtue of a spell that explicitly creates falsehoods, and who the actual loved one is, is quite a considerable difference. Especially since these changes can be reversed to normality by use of various methods. I'd personally rule that the creature's original true loved one is whoever would be affected by the spell, because that would fit the themes going on. It's a textbook example of sympathetic magic, and all sympathetic magic requires an actual genuine connection; it cannot be falsified.

Also 35 hit points for 3.5 intelligence points is hardly an efficient way of killing someone.

Love is entirely a subjective emotion. Feelings can change on a whim. Mind Rape can induce love, Love's Pain requires the target to be in love. There's no rule basis for your argument.

Love's pain can be powered up with metamagic, and if you use it from a fast flowing demi plane it can deal a ton of damage quickly.

Edit: Also, the wizard is probably replicating the spell with Wish or is immune to ability damage.

[Scots Dragon]

So it would be out of character for him to do so.

Actually no. The fact is that he can, will, and has done it. It's just under the category of stuff he'll pull as a later resort.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Actually no. The fact is that he can, will, and has done it. It's just under the category of stuff he'll pull as a later resort.

So the question is, can the wizard kill him before that?

[Scots Dragon]

So the question is, can the wizard kill him before that?

Survey says probably not. More powerful entities have tried.

[Tainted_Scholar]

Survey says probably not. More powerful entities have tried.

You have to back up your claims with actual reason.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Survey says probably not. More powerful entities have tried.

How would Strange kill the wizard?

Also, I forgot a great combo: regeneration (Shapechange into an Elemental Weird) and Favor of the Martyr. You're immune to damage.

[Scots Dragon]

You have to back up your claims with actual reason.

Respect threads are kinda useful... (https://www.reddit.com/r/respectthreads/comments/30yg2b/respect_dr_strange_the_sorcerer_supreme/)

He's done stuff like going up against and wielding galaxy-shattering forces. You really do need stuff on the level of high-scale Mage: The Ascension tricks to match Strange.

[Tainted_Scholar]

Respect threads are kinda useful... (https://www.reddit.com/r/respectthreads/comments/30yg2b/respect_dr_strange_the_sorcerer_supreme/)

He's done stuff like going up against and wielding galaxy-shattering forces. You really do need stuff on the level of high-scale Mage: The Ascension tricks to match Strange.

A D&D Wizard can literally produce an infinite amount of force.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Respect threads are kinda useful... (https://www.reddit.com/r/respectthreads/comments/30yg2b/respect_dr_strange_the_sorcerer_supreme/)

He's done stuff like going up against and wielding galaxy-shattering forces.

So, what specific tactic are you proposing?

[Psyren]

His spells might be different. But just because they both have the same name doesn't mean that they're the same plane. Unless there is evidence that Strange's astral plane is timeless, why would we imagine it to be?

I'm going to focus on this bit first because nothing else I would say matters without it. Do words/names matter or not? Does text matter or not? Rules As Written doesn't care if "artifact" has different connotations between a rulebook and a comic - an artifact is an artifact. Similarly, it doesn't care if "Astral Plane" implies something different either. RAW only cares if they have the same name. Either you accept that premise, or there's really no point in continuing this discussion as we'll just be comparing apples to apple-shaped volkswagens.

[ColorBlindNinja]

I'm going to focus on this bit first because nothing else I would say matters without it. Do words/names matter or not? Does text matter or not? Rules As Written doesn't care if "artifact" has different connotations between a rulebook and a comic - an artifact is an artifact. Similarly, it doesn't care if "Astral Plane" implies something different either. RAW only cares if they have the same name. Either you accept that premise, or there's really no point in continuing this discussion as we'll just be comparing apples to apple-shaped volkswagens.

RAW deals with D&D. It's silly to claim that a completely different plane of existence named the Astral Plane should be identical to the one in 3.5 just because they have the same name.


Again, this equates to claiming that a god from a completely different work of fiction should be immune to disintegration just because D&D ones are. This a non sequitur.

Certain generalized words may have identical meanings: plane of existence, magic, ect. But specific terms should not. Otherwise, Thor in Marvel would have the same abilities as Thor in Deities and Demigods. That doesn't make any sense.

It's hardly an apples to oranges comparison to say that two terms with the same name aren't equal.

[Psyren]

RAW deals with D&D. It's silly to claim that a completely different plane of existence named the Astral Plane should be identical to the one in 3.5 just because they have the same name.

Again, RAW means Rules As Written. If the written words don't matter, then nothing in your wizard's spells do either and this whole thread is pointless.

[Tainted_Scholar]

I'm going to focus on this bit first because nothing else I would say matters without it. Do words/names matter or not? Does text matter or not? Rules As Written doesn't care if "artifact" has different connotations between a rulebook and a comic - an artifact is an artifact. Similarly, it doesn't care if "Astral Plane" implies something different either. RAW only cares if they have the same name. Either you accept that premise, or there's really no point in continuing this discussion as we'll just be comparing apples to apple-shaped volkswagens.

Except they're shown to be completely different. It doesn't matter if they have the same name if the barely reassemble one another.

This would be like claiming that Smaug can cast as a Sorcerer.

Or claiming that virus zombies are immune to crits (Despite the fact that they die to headshots).

Yes, we need to find equivalents so as to determine how they interact, but just because they have the same name doesn't mean they are the same thing.


Again, RAW means Rules As Written. If the written words don't matter, then nothing in your wizard's spells do either and this whole thread is pointless.

This is like claiming that the Twillight vampires should die to sunlight because they're called vampires. The rules work differently between different franchises. Strange will follow his franchise's rule and The Wizard her's.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Again, RAW means Rules As Written. If the written words don't matter, then nothing in your wizard's spells do either and this whole thread is pointless.

RAW matters in the context of D&D. Marvel Comics are not part of those rules.

[Psyren]

This is like claiming that the Twillight vampires should die to sunlight because they're called vampires. The rules work differently between different franchises. Strange will follow his franchises rule and The Wizard hers.

Great, so Strange wins because he's protagonist and a lynchpin of his universe, while Joe Wizard 20 is a random nobody.


RAW matters in the context of D&D. Marvel Comics are not part of those rules.

Indeed, making this contest pointless, glad we agree.

[Tainted_Scholar]

Great, so Strange wins because he's protagonist and a lynchpin of his universe, while Joe Wizard 20 is a random nobody.

Dude, Strange has lost fights before. Just because he's a protagonist doesn't mean he's going to win.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Great, so Strange wins because he's protagonist and a lynchpin of his universe, while Joe Wizard 20 is a random nobody.

So if we set this in the D&D verse, then the wizard wins?


Indeed, making this contest pointless, glad we agree.

No, VS debates tend to have compatibility issues. It's hardly pointless; these issues can be overcome.

[Psyren]

So if we set this in the D&D verse, then the wizard wins?

The D&D universe has a DM who would answer that question.


Dude, Strange has lost fights before. Just because he's a protagonist doesn't mean he's going to win.

Lost fights sure, but not overall conflicts. Nothing with any permanence, in other words.



No, VS debates tend to have compatibility issues. It's hardly pointless; these issues can be overcome.

That usually starts with agreeing on terms. You can't say "fire means something different in this universe therefore they can't burn each other." Either Magic A is Magic A and we can discuss, or not and not.

[Tainted_Scholar]

That usually starts with agreeing on terms. You can't say "fire means something different in this universe therefore they can't burn each other." Either Magic A is Magic A and we can discuss, or not and not.

A more apt analogy would be if fire was a green gelatin dessert in D&D while it was just normal fire in the Marvel. If that were the case would you be claiming that D&D should burn Strange just because they're both called fire?

[ColorBlindNinja]

The D&D universe has a DM who would answer that question.
D&D games have DMs, the D&D universe doesn't.



That usually starts with agreeing on terms. You can't say "fire means something different in this universe therefore they can't burn each other." Either Magic A is Magic A and we can discuss, or not and not.

Literally no one has claimed that or anything tantamount to that. Objections were raised on two topics: are D&D artifacts and god created items equivalent, and whether or not the Marvel Astral Plane is the same as the D&D one.

I would be willing to accept the bit about artifacts and I could accept that Dr. Strange's spells are fundamentally different from D&D ones. But the Astral Planes being the same and AMF not blocking Stange's (non artifact) magic is where I disagree. Neither of those claims make any sense.

[Psyren]

A more apt analogy would be if fire was a green gelatin dessert in D&D while it was just normal fire in the Marvel. If that were the case would you be claiming that D&D should burn Strange just because they're both called fire?

Depends, does the RAW say "fire?"


D&D games have DMs, the D&D universe doesn't.

Sure it does, he/she is Ao's boss.



Literally no one has claimed that or anything tantamount to that. Objections were raised on two topics: are D&D artifacts and god created items equivalent, and whether or not the Marvel Astral Plane is the same as the D&D one.

I would be willing to accept the bit about artifacts and I could accept that Dr. Strange's spells are fundamentally different from D&D ones. But the Astral Planes being the same and AMF not blocking Stange's (non artifact) magic is where I disagree. Neither of those claims make any sense.

RAW doesn't have to make sense. See also drown healing or a god's toenail being in your pouch so you can Ice Assassin it. Neither of those make sense, but RAW is RAW.

[Tainted_Scholar]

Depends, does the RAW say "fire?"

Are you seriously saying that if RAW referred to green gelatin dessert as fire, you would argue that it would burn Strange?

[Psyren]

Are you seriously saying that if RAW referred to green gelatin dessert as fire, you would argue that it would burn Strange?

Are you seriously saying you have a god's body parts in your spell component pouch?

Ridiculousness cuts both ways.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Depends, does the RAW say "fire?"

That doesn't make them the same thing. They're fundamentally different.


Sure it does, he/she is Ao's boss.
Isn't Ao exclusive to Forgotten Realms?



RAW doesn't have to make sense. See also drown healing or a god's toenail being in your pouch so you can Ice Assassin it. Neither of those make sense, but RAW is RAW.

If RAW describes the Astral Plane as having certain properties, and Marvel's Astral Plane has different properties, then they're not the same thing. RAW is referring to something else entirely.



Are you seriously saying you have a god's body parts in your spell component pouch?

Ridiculousness cuts both ways.

You misunderstand. It's not a matter of being ridiculous, you're just wrong.

Or, are you saying that Marvel Thor be the same as D&D Thor because they share the same name?

I truly think we're arguing in circles at this point. I disagree with you, but I don't think this debate is going anywhere. Perhaps we should agree to disagree?

[Psyren]

I truly think we're arguing in circles at this point. I disagree with you, but I don't think this debate is going anywhere. Perhaps we should agree to disagree?

Seems that way so I'm fine with that.



You misunderstand. It's not a matter of being ridiculous, you're just wrong.


No u, since we're doing the edit-in-snipes thing.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Seems that way so I'm fine with that.

Very well.

[Anthrowhale]

Some details seem a bit off in the arguments so I wanted to comment.

Timeless[magic] (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm#time) is the trait which makes spells last forever. And yes, that can be carried into other planes via planar bubble.
As far as I know every form of Genesis which does not forbid manipulation of the time trait is 3.0 material while every form which does forbid manipulation of the time trait is 3.5 material. Given that 3.0 material can explicitly be adjusted by a DM for use in a 3.5 game, any use of flowing time or Timeless[Magic] is relying on DM fiat in a stronger sense than using 3.5 rules. A consequence of this is that manipulation of other traits than time is implicitly allowed in 3.5.
Astral Projection, by RAW leaves your body on the material plane:
...leaving your physical body behind on the Material Plane.... You can say "that's ridiculous if you start on your pet demiplane", but if you want to live by the RAW you should be prepared to die by the RAW. Either Astral Projection moves your body somewhere random on the material plane (eh?) or it implicitly only works from the material plane.
It's not clear to me that an Ice Assassin of a deity has divine ranks because at least in some cosmologies divine ranks are conserved.

Overall, the hypothetical wizard doing planar shenanigans subject to a critical reading of the rules is not quite so overwhelming, at least when manipulating demiplanes.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Some details seem a bit off in the arguments so I wanted to comment.

Timeless[magic] (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm#time) is the trait which makes spells last forever. And yes, that can be carried into other planes via planar bubble.
As far as I know every form of Genesis which does not forbid manipulation of the time trait is 3.0 material while every form which does forbid manipulation of the time trait is 3.5 material. Given that 3.0 material can explicitly be adjusted by a DM for use in a 3.5 game, any use of flowing time or Timeless[Magic] is relying on DM fiat in a stronger sense than using 3.5 rules. A consequence of this is that manipulation of other traits than time is implicitly allowed in 3.5.
Astral Projection, by RAW leaves your body on the material plane:. You can say "that's ridiculous if you start on your pet demiplane", but if you want to live by the RAW you should be prepared to die by the RAW. Either Astral Projection moves your body somewhere random on the material plane (eh?) or it implicitly only works from the material plane.
It's not clear to me that an Ice Assassin of a deity has divine ranks because at least in some cosmologies divine ranks are conserved.

Overall, the hypothetical wizard doing planar shenanigans subject to a critical reading of the rules is not quite so overwhelming, at least when manipulating demiplanes.

You should be able to move your body to a different plane via Wish.

Also, the SRD reprinted Genesis from the Epic Handbook and has the timeless and fast flowing traits.

[Sayt]

I'm not super familiar with Dr. Strange (never really seemed my thing), or high TO optimization wizard shenanigans(always seemed like abusive, silly ego-stroking), but from what I can tell based on the marvelocity wiki and benchmarks based on spell levels, if represented in a DND game, Dr Strange would likely be a high level wizard (or maybe a cleric). Flight, teleportation, time manipulation, elemental blasting, ageless and immune to disease, plane shifting/banishment, illusions, intangibility, teleather, aND can sense space/time anomalies. He's basically has the wizard kit.

[Anthrowhale]

You should be able to move your body to a different plane via Wish.
While this could be done, it plausibly means that if you die in an astral body you are stuck in suspended animation forever.

... the cord simply returns to your body where it rests on the Material Plane, thereby reviving it from its state of suspended animation.
If your body is not on the Material plane, there is no end to suspended animation.

Also, the SRD reprinted Genesis from the Epic Handbook and has the timeless and fast flowing traits.
You are agreeing with me, right? Epic Handbook was 3.0.

[ColorBlindNinja]

While this could be done, it plausibly means that if you die in an astral body you are stuck in suspended animation forever.

If your body is not on the Material plane, there is no end to suspended animation.
Contingency solves that problem.


You are agreeing with me, right? Epic Handbook was 3.0.

I was more pointing out that they reprinted it.

[Anthrowhale]

Contingency solves that problem.

How? What's the condition and what's the effect?


I was more pointing out that they reprinted it.

Yep.

[ColorBlindNinja]

How? What's the condition and what's the effect?
Greater Plane Shift my body back to the Astral Plane if I die? Something to that effect.

[Anthrowhale]

Greater Plane Shift my body back to the Astral Plane if I die? Something to that effect.

There are 3 problems.

Greater Plane Shift can't be used with Contingency as it is level 8 spell and at most level 6 spells can be used with Contingency.
As a DM, I would not allow Contingency to be used for divination via the clause:
If complicated or convoluted conditions are prescribed, the whole spell combination (contingency and the companion magic) may fail when called on. In particular, I would only allow contingency to work when the 'if' is dependent on personally observable conditions and definitely not based on events on another plane. Since your astral body getting killed has no observable effect on your suspended animation normal body which you have stashed via wishport on your personal demiplane the contingency will not fire.
Your body needs to be on the Material Plane for the death clause of Astral Projection to work.

[khadgar567]

Strange wins dnd wizard needs optimization to be moderately effective against most major league mobs and strange often fights with likes of hulk, dormamu, baroness mordo, doctor doom which each of them is near the epic power range of dnd class
hulk enough strenght to cast fist constanly and can use monk powers to deal more damage
dormamu is basicly asmodeus of marvel
mordo eldricth theurge with 9th level spells like strange
doom basicly 5th edition artificer with again 9th level spells and frequent user of simulcarum to escape
so can any one give vannila wizards serious acomplishments

[ColorBlindNinja]

There are 3 problems.

Greater Plane Shift can't be used with Contingency as it is level 8 spell and at most level 6 spells can be used with Contingency.

Craft Contingent Spell to the rescue!


As a DM, I would not allow Contingency to be used for divination via the clause: In particular, I would only allow contingency to work when the 'if' is dependent on personally observable conditions and definitely not based on events on another plane. Since your astral body getting killed has no observable effect on your suspended animation normal body which you have stashed via wishport on your personal demiplane the contingency will not fire.

Convoluted? It's a simple if then statement. Contingency has none of the limitations you state.


Your body needs to be on the Material Plane for the death clause of Astral Projection to work.


A slight rewording is all that is necessary to fix that.

Honestly, I don't think this issue will ever come up, because Hide Life means the wizard can't die.


Strange wins dnd wizard needs optimization to be moderately effective against most major league mobs and strange often fights with likes of hulk, dormamu, baroness mordo, doctor doom which each of them is near the epic power range of dnd class
hulk enough strenght to cast fist constanly and can use monk powers to deal more damage
dormamu is basicly asmodeus of marvel
mordo eldricth theurge with 9th level spells like strange
doom basicly 5th edition artificer with again 9th level spells and frequent user of simulcarum to escape
so can any one give vannila wizards serious acomplishments

A reoccurring problem I've noticed is that many posters have been asserting that Strange will win while being vague about how he will do so.

I would appreciate if people would give more detailed explanations, maybe with a comic panel or two as evidence.

[khadgar567]

Craft Contingent Spell to the rescue!



Convoluted? It's a simple if then statement. Contingency has none of the limitations you state.



A slight rewording is all that is necessary to fix that.

Honestly, I don't think this issue will ever come up, because Hide Life means the wizard can't die.



A reoccurring problem I've noticed is that many posters have been asserting that Strange will win while being vague about how he will do so.

I would appreciate if people would give more detailed explanations, maybe with a comic panel or two as evidence.
just looking cartoons give good base assumption about each marvel characters powers and good old google can let you take 30 on knowledge check by lets say searching hulk iron fist chi voila you just get the issue number were hulk visits iron fist dojo to learn titular characters fist technique or doom living tribulal tournament arc again here you go arc about doom and stranges tournament to gain boon from living tribunal.It is that easy to get solid info about strange in few combat turns while we have zinch about d&d wizard

[JNAProductions]

just looking cartoons give good base assumption about each marvel characters powers and good old google can let you take 30 on knowledge check by lets say searching hulk iron fist chi voila you just get the issue number were hulk visits iron fist dojo to learn titular characters fist technique or doom living tribulal tournament arc again here you go arc about doom and stranges tournament to gain boon from living tribunal.It is that easy to get solid info about strange in few combat turns while we have zinch about d&d wizard

If it's so easy, provide it for us, please.

And there's a POOPTON of info on what a Wizard can do. Like, over a decade's worth of info.

[ColorBlindNinja]

just looking cartoons give good base assumption about each marvel characters powers and good old google can let you take 30 on knowledge check by lets say searching hulk iron fist chi voila you just get the issue number were hulk visits iron fist dojo to learn titular characters fist technique or doom living tribulal tournament arc again here you go arc about doom and stranges tournament to gain boon from living tribunal.It is that easy to get solid info about strange in few combat turns while we have zinch about d&d wizard

We have precise information from the rules that tells us what 3.5 wizards are capable of. I can tell you exactly how close you need to be for a particular spell to affect you. As long as certain variables are constant, that distance will never change. This is expected because D&D is a ruleset; it needs a degree of consistency.

[Tainted_Scholar]

just looking cartoons give good base assumption about each marvel characters powers and good old google can let you take 30 on knowledge check by lets say searching hulk iron fist chi voila you just get the issue number were hulk visits iron fist dojo to learn titular characters fist technique or doom living tribulal tournament arc again here you go arc about doom and stranges tournament to gain boon from living tribunal.It is that easy to get solid info about strange in few combat turns while we have zinch about d&d wizard


If you use more punctuation it will make your post alot easier to read. Your first sentence is just a giant block of text with not even a comma.

[Anthrowhale]

Craft Contingent Spell to the rescue!
This is a 12Kgp if you are tracking WBL.


Convoluted? It's a simple if then statement. Contingency has none of the limitations you state.

It's not the statement that's convoluted but rather correctly predicting the trigger time. Inferring what's happening on another plane based on local observations is extremely convoluted. That's why it's a 9th level power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/metafaculty.htm).


Honestly, I don't think this issue will ever come up, because Hide Life means the wizard can't die.

Hide Life is a 3.0 spell and hence subject to DM revision to a greater extent than you may appreciate.

[Tainted_Scholar]

This is a 12Kgp if you are tracking WBL.

It's a TO Wizard, WBL means nothing to her. She can just use wish traps to get as much gold as she wants.


It's not the statement that's convoluted but rather correctly predicting the trigger time. Inferring what's happening on another plane based on local observations is extremely convoluted. That's why it's a 9th level power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/metafaculty.htm).

The person with the contingency doesn't need to consciously trigger the contingency. That happens when the circumstances are met. They don't need to be aware that the circumstance was met.


Hide Life is a 3.0 spell and hence subject to DM revision to a greater extent than you may appreciate.

That's not how RAW works. 3.0 materials can be directly ported to 3.5 as long as they haven't been reprinted in a 3.5 book.

[Anthrowhale]

It's a TO Wizard, WBL means nothing to her. She can just use wish traps to get as much gold as she wants.
Ah, so a commoner can also beat Dr. Strange I take it.


The person with the contingency doesn't need to consciously trigger the contingency. That happens when the circumstances are met. They don't need to be aware that the circumstance was met.

I said nothing about the person being aware, so this seems rather irrelevant.


That's not how RAW works. 3.0 materials can be directly ported to 3.5 as long as they haven't been reprinted in a 3.5 book.
No. The PHB and DMG both say things in the "Why a Revision?" section like: "and these [3.0] products can be used with the revision with only minor adjustments". Hence, minor adjustments can (and should) be made. For Hide Life in particular, a DM could make the spell permanent rather than instantaneous.

[JNAProductions]

There's a difference between a commoner (who makes, what, 1 sp a day, and has no magic of their own) and a 20th+ level Wizard (who already has oodles of cash with which to make more).

[Tainted_Scholar]

Ah, so a commoner can also beat Dr. Strange I take it.

What does that have to do with WBL?


I said nothing about the person being aware, so this seems rather irrelevant.

Then what exactly was your objection?


No. The PHB and DMG both say things in the "Why a Revision?" section like: "and these [3.0] products can be used with the revision with only minor adjustments". Hence, minor adjustments can (and should) be made. For Hide Life in particular, a DM could make the spell permanent rather than instantaneous.

The minor revisions they were referring to is for when the 3.0 material doesn't work with the new 3.5 rules. Since that isn't the case with Hide Life no changes are necessary.

[Anthrowhale]

What does that have to do with WBL?
A Commoner 20 can certainly create an infinite WBL loop and use that to acquire any desired item. With all possible desirable items, Doctor Strange shouldn't be much of a challenge.


Then what exactly was your objection?
I don't know how to state it more clearly than I did.



The minor revisions they were referring to is for when the 3.0 material doesn't work with the new 3.5 rules. Since that isn't the case with Hide Life no changes are necessary.
citation needed.

[JNAProductions]

A Commoner 20 can certainly create an infinite WBL loop and use that to acquire any desired item. With all possible desirable items, Doctor Strange shouldn't be much of a challenge.

Yes. 3rd edition RAW is REALLY DAMN ABUSABLE. Anyone with sufficient wealth can set up a wealth trap, make infinite money, and do just about anything.

[ColorBlindNinja]

A Commoner 20 can certainly create an infinite WBL loop and use that to acquire any desired item. With all possible desirable items, Doctor Strange shouldn't be much of a challenge.

And? This isn't a valid objection.


I don't know how to state it more clearly than I did.

You're imposing restrictions on contingency that don't exist.



citation needed.

It was rather obvious from the text you quoted that was the case. This is RAW; there are no DMs to alter 3.0 spells or anything else for that matter.

[Florian]

Yes. 3rd edition RAW is REALLY DAMN ABUSABLE. Anyone with sufficient wealth can set up a wealth trap, make infinite money, and do just about anything.

Oh, don´t say that. That would remind our wizard-lovers that WBLmancy is a thing ....

[Tainted_Scholar]

Oh, don´t say that. That would remind our wizard-lovers that WBLmancy is a thing ....

Are you just here to troll?

[ColorBlindNinja]

Oh, don´t say that. That would remind our wizard-lovers that WBLmancy is a thing ....

The wizard doesn't need WBL to do anything. She can just Shapechange into a Zodar and get free wishes for all her needs.

[Mato]

Just a couple of replies from yesterday, I'll try to play catch up.


"The spellcaster determines the environment within the demiplane when he or she first casts genesis, reflecting most any desire the spellcaster can visualize."
Time is a planar trait.
False equivalence (describing a situation of logical and apparent equivalence, when in fact there is none) over treating the word "environment" differently than D&D uses it.

Yes, you can alter the environment which is defined on page three hundred and two where is brings up temperature, water, suffocation and falling/crushing damage which are all things you can run into based on Genesis's list of things you can alter. But time is a physical planar trait along with gravity, size & shape, morphic traits. Genesis only mentions one of those, size, and does not allow the caster to simply choose to alter it.


And then in Psionic Genesis. "You can’t manipulate the time trait on your demiplane; its time trait is as the Material Plane." A line which is strangely absent from normal genesis. Meaning that normal Genesis can indeed manipulate the time flow of the demiplane.
Argument from silence (argumentum ex silentio) – where the conclusion is based on the absence of evidence, rather than the existence of evidence.

And I think you misread things.

Normal Time: This trait describes the way time passes on the Material Plane. One hour on a plane with normal time equals one hour on the Material Plane. Unless otherwise noted in a description, every plane in the D&D cosmology has the normal time trait.So please, keep telling me what genesis doesn't say. :smallcool:

Besides I'm not even sure arguing a spell from the 3.0 Epic Level Handbook against it's 3.5 counterpart is really the direction anyone should go. Like psionic mindblank or psionic contingency are clearly intended copies of powers but Complete Psionic didn't make a psionic genesis, they printed the 3.5 version of genesis which makes it feel like an update and the inclusion of additional clarification is exactly the kind of thing an update would include. You can dislike the idea, and I expect nothing less out of you, but your method of arguing will not be able to convince me otherwise because you have already discredited your self too much on this subject.


D&D wizards are immune to time effects thanks to Selective Temporal Repair.Actually that spell only prevents time-altering effects from affecting anyone within 50ft and you need a successful caster level check to affect 6th level spells or higher. If you were 51 feet away you could cast time stop on your self even if the other wizard was totally convinced his caster level was higher.


That's irrelevant. We'd have to throw out half the rules if we only accepted printed material.Neat.

And why are you guys still talking about AMF anyway? There even are dozens of optimized D&D builds capable of ignoring an AMF even withing the deity power excuse, AMF is a joke to decent casters in the first place. And as Florian already said,


I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. I meant has Dr. Strange ever encountered an AMF in his own comics.Yes, and simply ignored it.
Don´t get to hung up on D&D Wizards, that´s not a high-powered game. We talk Dr. Strange, we talk Mage or Ars Magicka.


How is Strange going to make himself immune to Damage?By using the damage reflection spell he has used on Mephisto & Satannish, as a white magic specialist he can heal but almost no arcane spells in D&D offer the same. Would you like to rebuild your unstated wizard again with Rainbow Servant?


How is suppose to take away the Wizard's Powers?By focusing his will and just stealing them as he did to Arioch and Shuma-Gorath.


That's the D&D Astral Plane though. Strange's Astral Projection works differently.Well Dr Strange's magic works differently, like his spells don't allow for reflex saves and his bands are capable of restraining the Hulk and prohibiting teleportation so I guess if you want to play that card...


Unless any of his sanctums have an infinitely faster time flow,That is one comment is pretty much the entire point of this discussion. Dr Strange cannot die of old age and can freely manipulate time and even sense when someone else does and react to it, he doesn't need a sanctum.

You need to stop applying the D&D wizard's limitations on Dr Strange.

So don't forget to include Dr Strange having all six infinity gems. Including Reality which can reshape the entire universe so everyone of the wizard's friends hate him like your best examples of using mind rape. But Dr Strange does it all instantly, with one spell, without losing XP, or even needing to be in range or on the same plane as his "target".

But the stones don't add to much, after all Dr Strange can block blasts from the infinity stone of power or even recover from being sent no where and outside of time by the time & space infinity stones His peak power is actually so high he can counter the infinity stones.


This is like claiming that the Twillight vampires should die to sunlight because they're called vampires. The rules work differently between different franchises. Strange will follow his franchise's rule and The Wizard her's.It's like calling environments "planar traits"! :smallwink:


D&D games have DMs, the D&D universe doesn't.Well the wizard needs a DM's permission to create an epic spell and take levels in prestigious classes.

Even if I knew nothing about the characters Tainted_Scholar & ColorBlindNinja's arguments would convince me Dr Strange should win. This is a D&D forum and the best arguments to support the wizard being set forth is logical fallacies, debates on what to ignore, and contradicting statements all coupled with a vague out line of a wizard's possibilities. :smallsigh:

[Florian]

The wizard doesn't need WBL to do anything. She can just Shapechange into a Zodar and get free wishes for all her needs.

No? Because the Zodar has to be an actual thing at a given table?


Even if I knew nothing about the characters Tainted_Scholar & ColorBlindNinja's arguments would convince me Dr Strange should win. This is a D&D forum and the best arguments to support the wizard being set forth is logical fallacies, debates on what to ignore, and contradicting statements all coupled with a vague out line of a wizard's possibilities. :smallsigh:

That´s so. And you´re right that porting Dr. Strange over to D&D rules simply means creating new and fitting rules for his powers, which simply are a league above mere wizardry.

[Tainted_Scholar]

No? Because the Zodar has to be an actual thing at a given table?

What the heck are you even trying to say? Zodars are are creature with stat blocks, and this is a RAW discussion. The Wizard can easily turn into to one.

[Florian]

What the heck are you even trying to say? Zodars are are creature with stat blocks, and this is a RAW discussion. The Wizard can easily turn into to one.

Even the last commoner can turn into one. If you want this to be RAW, than stick to it without arbitrary decisions on what to pick and what to leave out. Call Pazuzu or use a Luck Blade and go from there, it´s not that hard and really anyone can do it.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Just a couple of replies from yesterday, I'll try to play catch up.

False equivalence (describing a situation of logical and apparent equivalence, when in fact there is none) over treating the word "environment" differently than D&D uses it.

Yes, you can alter the environment which is defined on page three hundred and two where is brings up temperature, water, suffocation and falling/crushing damage which are all things you can run into based on Genesis's list of things you can alter. But time is a physical planar trait along with gravity, size & shape, morphic traits. Genesis only mentions one of those, size, and does not allow the caster to simply choose to alter it.
It's a non-exhaustive list. The words "such as" prove this. Give me the D&D definition of environment if you're convinced it's different.



Argument from silence (argumentum ex silentio) – where the conclusion is based on the absence of evidence, rather than the existence of evidence.
You're going to tell me that the specific change made to other version of Genesis to prevent time manipulation isn't evidence that the arcane version can create fast flowing planes? I don't buy it.[/QUOTE]


And I think you misread things.
So please, keep telling me what genesis doesn't say. :smallcool:

I'm far from the only person to think Genesis can manipulate time traits. The Manual of the Planes outright says that some spellcasters abuse time flowing demiplanes to regain their spells.


Besides I'm not even sure arguing a spell from the 3.0 Epic Level Handbook against it's 3.5 counterpart is really the direction anyone should go. Like psionic mindblank or psionic contingency are clearly intended copies of powers but Complete Psionic didn't make a psionic genesis, they printed the 3.5 version of genesis which makes it feel like an update and the inclusion of additional clarification is exactly the kind of thing an update would include. You can dislike the idea, and I expect nothing less out of you, but your method of arguing will not be able to convince me otherwise because you have already discredited your self too much on this subject.

There's only one arcane version of Genesis and it was reprinted in the SRD.



Actually that spell only prevents time-altering effects from affecting anyone within 50ft and you need a successful caster level check to affect 6th level spells or higher. If you were 51 feet away you could cast time stop on your self even if the other wizard was totally convinced his caster level was higher.

Neat.

I already know that. Consumptive Field means that the wizard can boost her caster level to ludicrous heights.



And why are you guys still talking about AMF anyway? There even are dozens of optimized D&D builds capable of ignoring an AMF even withing the deity power excuse, AMF is a joke to decent casters in the first place. And as Florian already said,

Selective AMF is a useful defense VS spells. Combined with Dweomer of Transference makes you nigh immune to magic.



By using the damage reflection spell he has used on Mephisto & Satannish, as a white magic specialist he can heal but almost no arcane spells in D&D offer the same. Would you like to rebuild your unstated wizard again with Rainbow Servant?
Why bother when the wizard is immune to damage. If for some reason she needs to heal, wish is more than sufficient.


By focusing his will and just stealing them as he did to Arioch and Shuma-Gorath.
How long does it take him to do that? How close does he need to be to his target? Can you post examples?


Well Dr Strange's magic works differently, like his spells don't allow for reflex saves and his bands are capable of restraining the Hulk and prohibiting teleportation so I guess if you want to play that card...
What about VS incorporeal?


That is one comment is pretty much the entire point of this discussion. Dr Strange cannot die of old age and can freely manipulate time and even sense when someone else does and react to it, he doesn't need a sanctum.
Can you provide some examples?


You need to stop applying the D&D wizard's limitations on Dr Strange.

I'm not. I just need more information about what he can do.



So don't forget to include Dr Strange having all six infinity gems. Including Reality which can reshape the entire universe so everyone of the wizard's friends hate him like your best examples of using mind rape. But Dr Strange does it all instantly, with one spell, without losing XP, or even needing to be in range or on the same plane as his "target".

Can you please provide citation for that?


But the stones don't add to much, after all Dr Strange can block blasts from the infinity stone of power or even recover from being sent no where and outside of time by the time & space infinity stones His peak power is actually so high he can counter the infinity stones.
Again, can you provide some citations for these claims?




It's like calling environments "planar traits"! :smallwink:

Feel free to provide evidence to the contrary.


Well the wizard needs a DM's permission to create an epic spell and take levels in prestigious classes.

No, in TO permission is always assumed because there is no DM.



Even if I knew nothing about the characters Tainted_Scholar & ColorBlindNinja's arguments would convince me Dr Strange should win.

You'll need to be more specific as to how.

Edit: In regards to Genesis, it's quite apparent that "environment" refers to a subset of items, including planar traits. Thus, why it includes several planar traits as part of "environment".

[Tainted_Scholar]

Even the last commoner can turn into one. If you want this to be RAW, than stick to it without arbitrary decisions on what to pick and what to leave out. Call Pazuzu or use a Luck Blade and go from there, it´s not that hard and really anyone can do it.

Why does this matter?

[Anthrowhale]

And? This isn't a valid objection.
I'm not objecting---just pointing out that allowing infinite wealth makes the question rather meaningless.


You're imposing restrictions on contingency that don't exist.

I've given a citation to text which can certainly cover things. You have not.


It was rather obvious from the text you quoted that was the case. This is RAW; there are no DMs to alter 3.0 spells or anything else for that matter.
That's not obvious to me. There are many official examples of spells transported from 3.0 to 3.5 with much more significant changes.

No, in TO permission is always assumed because there is no DM.

While this may be true for some, I personally respect TO that works when the DM does not give permission. Ultimately, DM permission, like breaking WBL, leads nowhere interesting.

[The_Jette]

In regards to Genesis, it's quite apparent that "environment" refers to a subset of items, including planar traits. Thus, why it includes several planar traits as part of "environment".

Okay, I gotta ask: all of the mentioned environmental features (atmosphere, water, temperature, and the general shape of the terrain) are physical features. So, why is it assumed that planar traits are part of the features that can be determined by the caster? Nothing is mentioned about gravity, positive/negative energy, time, etc. If the spell was meant to be able to determine planar traits, why wouldn't at least one of those things be included. Heck, the spell can't even create grass because it's unable to create life. Why would a spell that can't create the most basic of plant life be able to create an time bubble where time goes infinitely fast? That just doesn't make any sense, imo.

[ColorBlindNinja]

I'm not objecting---just pointing out that allowing infinite wealth makes the question rather meaningless.

Why do you say that?


I've given a citation to text which can certainly cover things. You have not.

No, you have not. "Convoluted" doesn't mean what you claim it does.


That's not obvious to me. There are many official examples of spells transported from 3.0 to 3.5 with much more significant changes.

That's irrelevant. If 3.0 material wasn't updated, it's fair use.


While this may be true for some, I personally respect TO that works when the DM does not give permission. Ultimately, DM permission, like breaking WBL, leads nowhere interesting.

I would disagree.


Okay, I gotta ask: all of the mentioned environmental features (atmosphere, water, temperature, and the general shape of the terrain) are physical features. So, why is it assumed that planar traits are part of the features that can be determined by the caster? Nothing is mentioned about gravity, positive/negative energy, time, etc. If the spell was meant to be able to determine planar traits, why wouldn't at least one of those things be included. Heck, the spell can't even create grass because it's unable to create life. Why would a spell that can't create the most basic of plant life be able to create an time bubble where time goes infinitely fast? That just doesn't make any sense, imo.

The text does say that "reflecting most any desire the spellcaster can visualize". I'd say that covers planar traits.

[JNAProductions]

So you say that allowing infinite wealth makes the question meaningless. But the thing is, it's not just possible, it's EASY for a Wizard of that level to do it.

[Tainted_Scholar]

Fast flowing Demi-Planes are comely excepted TO. I don't understand why it's getting so much push back here when it's excepted everywhere else.

[Anthrowhale]

Okay, I gotta ask: all of the mentioned environmental features (atmosphere, water, temperature, and the general shape of the terrain) are physical features. So, why is it assumed that planar traits are part of the features that can be determined by the caster? Nothing is mentioned about gravity, positive/negative energy, time, etc. If the spell was meant to be able to determine planar traits, why wouldn't at least one of those things be included. Heck, the spell can't even create grass because it's unable to create life. Why would a spell that can't create the most basic of plant life be able to create an time bubble where time goes infinitely fast? That just doesn't make any sense, imo.

The only strong evidence of the ability to set planar traits seems to be given by the 3.5 version of genesis which forbids mucking with the time trait, which implicitly suggests you could otherwise muck with the time trait and can muck with other planar traits.

[Anthrowhale]

Fast flowing Demi-Planes are comely excepted TO. I don't understand why it's getting so much push back here when it's excepted everywhere else.

I don't think 'excepted' means what you think it means :smallsmile:

[The_Jette]

The text does say that "reflecting most any desire the spellcaster can visualize". I'd say that covers planar traits.

"most any" desire could include some grass, but the spell can't do that. So, why take a statement that has literally no value to it when calling out what the spell can do, and try to use it to say that it can do something that the spell doesn't even really touch on? I normally don't call out fluff text, but if anything can be called fluff, that can. Is there anything else that backs up the idea of planar traits being part of what you can manipulate? Anything at all?

[Anthrowhale]

Why do you say that?
I'm bored. I think we are at 'you are interested in a set of rules that I am not'.

[ColorBlindNinja]

"most any" desire could include some grass, but the spell can't do that. So, why take a statement that has literally no value to it when calling out what the spell can do, and try to use it to say that it can do something that the spell doesn't even really touch on? I normally don't call out fluff text, but if anything can be called fluff, that can. Is there anything else that backs up the idea of planar traits being part of what you can manipulate? Anything at all?

The spell specifically prohibits life, it doesn't rule out planar traits.


I'm bored. I think we are at 'you are interested in a set of rules that I am not'.

That's fine. But infinite WBL is perfectly acceptable with the rules I laid out.

[Tainted_Scholar]

I don't think 'excepted' means what you think it means :smallsmile:

By accepted I mean that most people agree that it works. I have seen the fast flowing demi-plane mentioned multiple times and people usually don't object to it.


"most any" desire could include some grass, but the spell can't do that. So, why take a statement that has literally no value to it when calling out what the spell can do, and try to use it to say that it can do something that the spell doesn't even really touch on? I normally don't call out fluff text, but if anything can be called fluff, that can. Is there anything else that backs up the idea of planar traits being part of what you can manipulate? Anything at all?

It can't create grass because it specifically says that can't. It says that you can manipulate your demi-plane however you want with a few restrictions. If it's not under the restrictions than you can do it. The fact that they included time as restriction for the Psionic version supports this.

Also the manual of the planes mentions fast flowing demi-planes IIRC.

[Scots Dragon]

By excepted I mean that most people agree that it works. I have seen the fast flowing demi-plane mentioned multiple times and people usually don't object to it.

The word is 'accepted'.

[The_Jette]

The only strong evidence of the ability to set planar traits seems to be given by the 3.5 version of genesis which forbids mucking with the time trait, which implicitly suggests you could otherwise muck with the time trait and can muck with other planar traits.

Is it really "strong evidence" that a spell, which is essentially the psionic version of Genesis, calls out one specific boundary that isn't called out in the earlier version? It also calls out that you can't make the plane out of "esoteric" material, that you're restricted to dirt and rock. Honestly, it seems like they're just listing out all the obvious limitations on the spell that weren't thought of with the earlier spell text. Of course, that's just my opinion. In my opinion, most of the infinite loops don't actually work, which is why I don't chime in on most of those conversations.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Is it really "strong evidence" that a spell, which is essentially the psionic version of Genesis, calls out one specific boundary that isn't called out in the earlier version? It also calls out that you can't make the plane out of "esoteric" material, that you're restricted to dirt and rock. Honestly, it seems like they're just listing out all the obvious limitations on the spell that weren't thought of with the earlier spell text. Of course, that's just my opinion. In my opinion, most of the infinite loops don't actually work, which is why I don't chime in on most of those conversations.

That's fine, but plenty of people would disagree with you.

[Tainted_Scholar]

The word is 'accepted'.

Fixed.

Also we might want to create a new thread about fast flowing demi-planes.

[The_Jette]

It can't create grass because it specifically says that can't. It says that you can manipulate your demi-plane however you want with a few restrictions. If it's not under the restrictions than you can do it. The fact that they included time as restriction for the Psionic version supports this.

Also the manual of the planes mentions fast flowing demi-planes IIRC.

The manual of the planes does mention fast flowing demi-planes. However, can you find an example of one that was created using Genesis? Or, one that is "infinitely fast"? Also, as much as I'm a fan that if it doesn't say you can't do it, you should be able to, this is not one of those situations. It calls out a specific list of things that you can alter, not things you can't, and says you can alter other things like those mentioned. Altering the flow of time is nothing close to making it a balmy sunny day.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Also we might want to create a new thread about fast flowing demi-planes.

I concur.

Anyway, after some reading on the Marvel Wiki, it sounds like that Strange's power stealing is

A. Magical in nature and thus would be blocked by AMF
B. He's reluctant to use it.


The manual of the planes does mention fast flowing demi-planes. However, can you find an example of one that was created using Genesis? Or, one that is "infinitely fast"? Also, as much as I'm a fan that if it doesn't say you can't do it, you should be able to, this is not one of those situations. It calls out a specific list of things that you can alter, not things you can't, and says you can alter other things like those mentioned. Altering the flow of time is nothing close to making it a balmy sunny day.

The spell places no limits on such things. Nor do the planar traits. Environment is fairly broad, and Genesis' description is even broader.

I do think that this Genesis discussion should be its own thread if anyone wants to continue this debate. I'll be happy to participate. :smallsmile:

[Anthrowhale]

Is it really "strong evidence" that a spell, which is essentially the psionic version of Genesis, calls out one specific boundary that isn't called out in the earlier version? It also calls out that you can't make the plane out of "esoteric" material, that you're restricted to dirt and rock. Honestly, it seems like they're just listing out all the obvious limitations on the spell that weren't thought of with the earlier spell text. Of course, that's just my opinion. In my opinion, most of the infinite loops don't actually work, which is why I don't chime in on most of those conversations.

'strong' was the wrong word. It is evidence but far from air-tight.

[Florian]

Fast flowing Demi-Planes are comely excepted TO. I don't understand why it's getting so much push back here when it's excepted everywhere else.

Simple. There´s no air-tight evidence that you can do it, so no need to accept it as fact and continue the discussion based on it. TO discussion are based on possibilities and tend to break down under close scrutiny.

[Tainted_Scholar]

I created a new thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?527366-Can-you-a-Demi-Plane-s-time-flow) to discuss whether or not altering a Demi-plane's time flow is possible.

[ColorBlindNinja]

I created a new thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?527366-Can-you-a-Demi-Plane-s-time-flow) to discuss whether or not altering a Demi-plane's time flow is possible.

Thanks, I was just about to do that myself if someone brought it up again.

[Tainted_Scholar]

Can't the Wizard just sick an Ice Assassin of a god on Strange and kill him with Divine Splendor? Last I checked Strange isn't a god (I could be wrong about that though).

[Florian]

Can't the Wizard just sick an Ice Assassin of a god on Strange and kill him with Divine Splendor? Last I checked Strange isn't a god (I could be wrong about that though).

Same problem as with the demi-plane question. No air-tight access to the necessary spell component outside pure TO discussions.

Going by the lore, a Sorcerer Surprime is more like a Binder or PF Medium and able to channel Gods.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Can't the Wizard just sick an Ice Assassin of a god on Strange and kill him with Divine Splendor? Last I checked Strange isn't a god (I could be wrong about that though).

A souped up Mage's Disjunction would be useful too.


Same problem as with the demi-plane question. No air-tight access to the necessary spell component outside pure TO discussions.

Going by the lore, a Sorcerer Surprime is more like a Binder or PF Medium and able to channel Gods.

1. Eschew Materials is all that's needed to bypass the component. Wishing for an Ice Assassin Trap/Spellclock works too.

2. Clerics channel the power of gods, but they are vulnerable to Divine Splendor because the aren't gods.

[Tainted_Scholar]

Same problem as with the demi-plane question. No air-tight access to the necessary spell component outside pure TO discussions.

This is a TO discussion.


Going by the lore, a Sorcerer Surprime is more like a Binder or PF Medium and able to channel Gods.

That wouldn't protect him from Divine Splendor.

[Scots Dragon]

Same problem as with the demi-plane question. No air-tight access to the necessary spell component outside pure TO discussions.

Going by the lore, a Sorcerer Surprime is more like a Binder or PF Medium and able to channel Gods.

A good example of what he is would actually be a cleric-warlock-wizard, as he generally has the abilities of all three kind of mashed together. He does have non-specifically-divine spells that draw upon generic magical energies, and casts them fairly frequently, even studying them out of a spellbook in order to do so. Stuff like the Bolts of Bedevilment are in this category. He also has spells that channel various powerful entities in a manner similar to a warlock's invocations and a cleric's spells on top of that however.

[Florian]

A good example of what he is would actually be a cleric-warlock-wizard, as he generally has the abilities of all three kind of mashed together. He does have non-specifically-divine spells that draw upon generic magical energies, and casts them fairly frequently, even studying them out of a spellbook in order to do so. Stuff like the Bolts of Bedevilment are in this category. He also has spells that channel various powerful entities in a manner similar to a warlock's invocations and a cleric's spells on top of that however.

I mentioned it earlier, but D&D is simply bad at handling true power (and no, wizard-lovers will not understand that as they see mixing pre-existing spells for synergy as "power"). Let´s talk Mage and the 10 dot-area and we´re golden.

[Scots Dragon]

I mentioned it earlier, but D&D is simply bad at handling true power (and no, wizard-lovers will not understand that as they see mixing pre-existing spells for synergy as "power"). Let´s talk Mage and the 10 dot-area and we´re golden.

AD&D managed to properly manage high power stunts with a couple of spells, but yeah. D&D 3.5E's optimal way of playing a wizard doesn't even really let you feel like a powerful wizard at times, it makes you feel like someone exploiting specific statements that ought to obviously not count in order to win at a game.

[Tainted_Scholar]

3.5's power lies not in offense but rather in defense. There are no spells which let you nuke a planet when used as intended, however there are plenty of spells that make you nigh untouchable when used as intended.

[ben-zayb]

Somewhere in his pocket demiplane, a certain shirtless emperor is writhing in ecstasy.

[Âmesang]

So… stupid question that was probably asked already, but… does Dr. Strange's Earth have access to Dungeons & Dragons books? :smalltongue: Can this theoretical wizard plane shift/gate/shadow walk to an alternate Earth to pick up Dr. Strange comic books?

Heck, I'm now imagining the two forgoing the magic duel just to argue canon/rules against each other. :smallbiggrin:

[Hackulator]

Has anyone pointed out that Dr. Strange has a name and random wizard does not? Because people with names ALWAYS win against people without names. Now if you asked Dr. Strange vs Elminster that would be more arguable. However regardless, a D&D wizards powers are bound by rules and Dr. Strange's powers are not, so at peak effectiveness he wins EVERY time.

[ColorBlindNinja]

So… stupid question that was probably asked already, but… does Dr. Strange's Earth have access to Dungeons & Dragons books? :smalltongue: Can this theoretical wizard plane shift/gate/shadow walk to an alternate Earth to pick up Dr. Strange comic books?

Heck, I'm now imagining the two forgoing the magic duel just to argue canon/rules against each other. :smallbiggrin:

No, I prefer to avoid that type of meta; it gets really weird really fast.

By the by, a new tactic for the Wizard is Persistent Timeless Body; nothing detrimental can happen to her now.

[Tainted_Scholar]

Has anyone pointed out that Dr. Strange has a name and random wizard does not? Because people with names ALWAYS win against people without names. Now if you asked Dr. Strange vs Elminster that would be more arguable. However regardless, a D&D wizards powers are bound by rules and Dr. Strange's powers are not, so at peak effectiveness he wins EVERY time.

No! Arguments based on narrative conveniences are not a valid argument. The reason Strange won every time was because the writer's wanted him to, however the writers at Marvel are not a factor in the fight. We are going to look at their abilities and power level to determine a winner.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Has anyone pointed out that Dr. Strange has a name and random wizard does not? Because people with names ALWAYS win against people without names. Now if you asked Dr. Strange vs Elminster that would be more arguable. However regardless, a D&D wizards powers are bound by rules and Dr. Strange's powers are not, so at peak effectiveness he wins EVERY time.

So, if I give the Wizard a name she can win? Done. Her name is Weeko (yes it's a real name).

Weeko the Wondrous Wizard! The mightiest spellcaster in all the Planescape!

[Florian]

No! Arguments based on narrative conveniences are not a valid argument..

Aha... says who?

[Tainted_Scholar]

Aha... says who?

Says the fact that this isn't a Doctor Strange Comic Book. Narrative doesn't exist outside of stories and this isn't a story.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Says the fact that this isn't a Doctor Strange Comic Book. Narrative doesn't exist outside of stories.

Indeed, it was my intention that this little match take place in a neutral universe that accommodates both characters.

I apologize for not clarifying earlier.

[noob]

The only universe where their interactions happens logically is an universe without magic nor gods and all that silly things.(an universe with magic can not accommodate both without having tons of loopholes and incoherent stuff)
Now how good is dr strange at using a rifle when compared to someone with 10 bab?(he might be surprisingly good) and which one have the most int without magic?
Also the wizard is really good at craft basket-weaving.

[Tainted_Scholar]

The only universe where their interactions happens logically is an universe without magic nor gods and all that silly things.(an universe with magic can not accommodate both without having tons of loopholes and incoherent stuff)

Why on earth would they be fighting in a Universe without magic!? Additionally, spells like Invoke Magic would let the Wizard cast even in an area without magic.


Now how good is dr strange at using a rifle when compared to someone with 10 bab?(he might be surprisingly good) and which one have the most int without magic?

A. Why on earth would he have a rifle with him?

B. Even if he did have a rifle, he couldn't kill the Wizard with it. A rifle only does 2d10 or 2d8.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Even if he did have a rifle, he couldn't kill the Wizard with it. A rifle only does 2d10 or 2d8.

Even ignoring that, Ironguard means that bullets can't hurt the Wizard.

[noob]

Even ignoring that, Ironguard means that bullets can't hurt the Wizard.

Except if both got placed in an universe where any form of magic is impossible(because else it is way too hard to compute how the spells interacts and it can lead to undecidable interactions)

[ColorBlindNinja]

Except if both got placed in an universe where any form of magic is impossible(because else it is way too hard to compute how the spells interacts and it can lead to undecidable interactions)

Planar Bubble is worded in such a way that Dead Magic Zones wouldn't affect the Wizard.

It's moot anyway; they're not fighting in a universe without magic. That would be kinda silly as they're both mages.

[Tainted_Scholar]

Except if both got placed in an universe where any form of magic is impossible(because else it is way too hard to compute how the spells interacts and it can lead to undecidable interactions)

Listen, you're not the OP. You don't get to decide things like where they fight, or how much info they have on their opponent before the fight starts. And it's pretty clear from the rest of the thread that they both have their powers.

Additionally, even if they were fighting in a place where they're magic didn't work, the Wizard would kick Strange's can. She can survive a ridiculous amount of damage and has pretty good stats (Wish to get a plus five to all stats), whereas Strange would simply get shanked and die. Or she could just use Invoke Magic and blast him with Orb of X

[Darth Ultron]

Dr. Strange does the type of magic that is a near limitless powerful wish effect. So he'd win all the time, unless you could surprise him or distract him somehow.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Dr. Strange does the type of magic that is a near limitless powerful wish effect. So he'd win all the time, unless you could surprise him or distract him somehow.

Can you provide some evidence for this claim?

[SimonMoon6]

The only universe where their interactions happens logically is an universe without magic nor gods and all that silly things.(an universe with magic can not accommodate both without having tons of loopholes and incoherent stuff)
Now how good is dr strange at using a rifle when compared to someone with 10 bab?(he might be surprisingly good) and which one have the most int without magic?
Also the wizard is really good at craft basket-weaving.

From http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Stephen_Strange_(Earth-616) :



Skilled Martial Artist: Dr. Strange is a skilled athlete and was trained in the martial arts used by Tibetan monks in Kamar Taj, proving sufficiently talented to pass down such training to others, such as Clea. These talents have assisted him from time-to-time when incapable of using his sorcery. Strange is a formidable opponent to any skilled attacker and continues to train regularly with Wong. He has in some cases, been known to occasionally spar with other heroes; in one case, Strange was able to evade a kung fu hand-chop by Mantis (the future mother of the Dreaming Celestial) "only three others have ever done" and who has been able to subdue Thor in sheer physical combat, despite his strength nearly hundreds of times superior to her own.

Basically, you can assume that Doctor Strange is a gestalt wizard/monk.

[Hackulator]

No! Arguments based on narrative conveniences are not a valid argument. The reason Strange won every time was because the writer's wanted him to, however the writers at Marvel are not a factor in the fight. We are going to look at their abilities and power level to determine a winner.

I can't tell if your use of an exclamation point is serious or humorous, I hope the latter.

Secondly, it doesn't matter. The only thing we have to describe Dr. Strange's power level are the comics, and in many, many years of comics and hundreds if not thousands of adventures, Dr. Strange has displayed powers that are completely unbounded. A D&D wizard has a specific set of bounds to its power that we have. Unbounded power > bounded power, Dr. Strange wins.


So, if I give the Wizard a name she can win? Done. Her name is Weeko (yes it's a real name).

Weeko the Wondrous Wizard! The mightiest spellcaster in all the Planescape!

The wizard definitely has a better chance now, yes.

[Tainted_Scholar]

Secondly, it doesn't matter. The only thing we have to describe Dr. Strange's power level are the comics, and in many, many years of comics and hundreds if not thousands of adventures, Dr. Strange has displayed powers that are completely unbounded. A D&D wizard has a specific set of bounds to its power that we have. Unbounded power > bounded power, Dr. Strange wins.

A. We have to go by what level of Power Strange has actually shown. You can't say, "oh his power is boundless" you have to use actual showings of Strange's Power.

B. The Wizard can easily produce infinite damage.


The wizard definitely has a better chance now, yes.

You have just destroyed any credibility you had in this debate with this claim. Having a name won't change how powerful the Wizard is.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Secondly, it doesn't matter. The only thing we have to describe Dr. Strange's power level are the comics, and in many, many years of comics and hundreds if not thousands of adventures, Dr. Strange has displayed powers that are completely unbounded. A D&D wizard has a specific set of bounds to its power that we have. Unbounded power > bounded power, Dr. Strange wins.

Can you show evidence of this unbounded power? From the Wiki articles I read through, it would seem that Strange has limits.


The wizard definitely has a better chance now, yes.

I was mostly joking. Having a name has no barring on who would win.

[Hackulator]

A. We have to go by what level of Power Strange has actually shown. You can't say, "oh his power is boundless" you have to use actual showings of Strange's Power.

B. The Wizard can easily produce infinite damage.

Dr. Strange has survived inside the sun, traveled through time under his own power to win fights he had lost or was going to lose, and defeated God in a fight (yes like, the judeo-christian god). He is powerful enough that he can use the Darkhold, which is basically a more powerful version of the Codex of Infinite Planes, without being corrupted by it. He has an insane supply of other incredibly powerful, artifact level items in his sanctum. His spells are powerful enough to affect gods (he once made Galactus scream like a bitch with illusion spells). He's immune to aging, has telepathy, telekinesis, teleportation and every other power you can think of.




I was mostly joking. Having a name has no barring on who would win.

Clearly you have no exposure to modern media.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Dr. Strange has survived inside the sun, traveled through time under his own power to win fights he had lost or was going to lose, and defeated God in a fight (yes like, the judeo-christian god). He is powerful enough that he can use the Darkhold, which is basically a more powerful version of the Codex of Infinite Planes, without being corrupted by it. He has an insane supply of other incredibly powerful, artifact level items in his sanctum. His spells are powerful enough to affect gods (he once made Galactus scream like a bitch with illusion spells). He's immune to aging, has telepathy, telekinesis, teleportation and every other power you can think of.

Yet, that all does nothing VS Divine Splendor from an Ice Assassin.


Clearly you have no exposure to modern media.

That's irrelevant; this is a VS battle not a comic crossover.

[Tainted_Scholar]

Dr. Strange has survived inside the sun, traveled through time under his own power to win fights he had lost or was going to lose, and defeated God in a fight (yes like, the judeo-christian god). He is powerful enough that he can use the Darkhold, which is basically a more powerful version of the Codex of Infinite Planes, without being corrupted by it. He has an insane supply of other incredibly powerful, artifact level items in his sanctum. His spells are powerful enough to affect gods (he once made Galactus scream like a bitch with illusion spells). He's immune to aging, has telepathy, telekinesis, teleportation and every other power you can think of.

Thank you, that's far more useful.


Clearly you have no exposure to modern media.

This isn't a story, there is no narrative and as such tropes and cliches have no bearing on this fight. All that matters here is power and how you use it.

[Hackulator]

This isn't a story, there is no narrative and as such tropes and cliches have no bearing on this fight. All that matters here is power and how you use it.

This is nothing but a story. This is discussing a fight between an established fictional character in one fictional universe and a theoretical fictional character in another completely different fictional universe. We are telling a story and arguing about how the story should go. Please explain to me what other sane way there is to view what we are discussing?


Yet, that all does nothing VS Divine Splendor from an Ice Assassin.




Dr. Strange defeated death to gain immortality, Divine Splendor only affects mortals.

[Tainted_Scholar]

This is nothing but a story. This is discussing a fight between an established fictional character in one fictional universe and a theoretical fictional character in another completely different fictional universe. We are telling a story and arguing about how the story should go. Please explain to me what other sane way there is to view what we are discussing?

Because this is just a Fight. Narrative conventions don't matter, we are going to look at the character's power and abilities and use logic to determine who wins.


Dr. Strange defeated death to gain immortality, Divine Splendor only affects mortals.

In D&D, mortal just means a non deity. Liches don't age and die (meaning they're immortal), yet they are still affected by Divine Splender. Unless you mean that Strange is literally incapable of dying, in which case trap the soul works just fine.

[ColorBlindNinja]

This is nothing but a story. This is discussing a fight between an established fictional character in one fictional universe and a theoretical fictional character in another completely different fictional universe. We are telling a story and arguing about how the story should go. Please explain to me what other sane way there is to view what we are discussing?

As a VS debate.


Dr. Strange defeated death to gain immortality, Divine Splendor only affects mortals.

No. D&D defines "mortal" in this context as not a god. The Wizard is immortal too, but since she isn't a god, Divine Splendor can kill her.

[Hackulator]

As a VS debate.



No. D&D defines "mortal" in this context as not a god. The Wizard is immortal too, but since she isn't a god, Divine Splendor can kill her.

"VS debate" has no meaning without context. A "VS Debate" is nothing more than an exercise in collaborative storytelling.

Where is that definition?

[ColorBlindNinja]

"VS debate" has no meaning without context. A "VS Debate" is nothing more than an exercise in collaborative storytelling.

Where is that definition?

:smallconfused: I've never heard anyone call a VS debate storytelling.

Debate: "a formal discussion on a particular topic in a public meeting or legislative assembly, in which opposing arguments are put forward."

So, a debate regarding two characters fighting each other.

[Tainted_Scholar]

Where is that definition?

Under Divine Rank 0:
"Ordinary mortals do not have a divine rank of 0."

Meaning that if you don't have a Divine Rank, you are considered a mortal.

Additionally, like said, Liches are immortal but Divine Splendor still works on them.

[Hackulator]

Under Divine Rank 0:
"Ordinary mortals do not have a divine rank of 0."

Meaning that if you don't have a Divine Rank, you are considered a mortal.

Additionally, like said, Liches are immortal but Divine Splendor still works on them.

I'm sorry, but your logic is flawed.

A = You are a mortal
B = You have Divine Rank

A->~B (If you are mortal, you do not have divine rank, which is what you are saying with your quoted bit)

Can be true while

~B->A (If you have no divine rank you are mortal)

Is still false, by the laws of logic governing if/then statements. If you don't know logic rules, it's a bit too much to explain here.


:smallconfused: I've never heard anyone call a VS debate storytelling.

Debate: "a formal discussion on a particular topic in a public meeting or legislative assembly, in which opposing arguments are put forward."

So, a debate regarding two characters fighting each other.

One could easily argue that a debate is simply a collection of stories told by wither side. Taken as a whole, the debate is then it's own story about the topic at hand. Look up the meaning of story!

[Tainted_Scholar]

I'm sorry, but your logic is flawed.

A = You are a mortal
B = You have Divine Rank

A->~B (If you are mortal, you do not have divine rank, which is what you are saying with your quoted bit)

Can be true while

~B->A (If you have no divine rank you are mortal)

Is still false, by the laws of logic governing if/then statements. If you don't know logic rules, it's a bit too much to explain here.

It is possible that Divine Splendor can't affect creatures that don't die naturally. I'll check Deities and Demigods and see if it explains this.

It's still not a big deal though, the Wizard can use Trap The Soul.

[ColorBlindNinja]

I'm sorry, but your logic is flawed.

A = You are a mortal
B = You have Divine Rank

A->~B (If you are mortal, you do not have divine rank, which is what you are saying with your quoted bit)

Can be true while

~B->A (If you have no divine rank you are mortal)

Is still false, by the laws of logic governing if/then statements. If you don't know logic rules, it's a bit too much to explain here.

The rules are pretty clear. If you're not a god, you die.


One could easily argue that a debate is simply a collection of stories told by wither side. Taken as a whole, the debate is then it's own story about the topic at hand. Look up the meaning of story!

Semantics. Narrative convenience has no place in a VS debate.

[Tainted_Scholar]

From the Divine Glossary in Deities and DemiGods Page 6.

Mortal: A creature with no divine ranks. Mortals include humanoids, outsiders, and the other creatures in the Monster Manual.

[Hackulator]

It is possible that Divine Splendor can't affect creatures that don't die naturally. I'll check Deities and Demigods and see if it explains this.

It's still not a big deal though, the Wizard can use Trap The Soul.

Dr. Strange has had his soul pulled from his body many, many times. He still ends up kicking ass.

[Tainted_Scholar]

Dr. Strange has had his soul pulled from his body many, many times. He still ends up kicking ass.

Doesn't matter Divine Splendor Works.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Dr. Strange has had his soul pulled from his body many, many times. He still ends up kicking ass.

Except Trap the Soul disallows the ability to kick any ass.

I'd use Imprisonment myself, preceded by Mage's Disjunction and covering him with a Selective AMF.

[Hackulator]

From the Divine Glossary in Deities and DemiGods Page 6.

Mortal: A creature with no divine ranks. Mortals include humanoids, outsiders, and the other creatures in the Monster Manual.

From the Dr. Strange wiki:

This ability to be a conduit to multiversal power sources has given rise to the phrase "Dr. Strange is as powerful as the god he invokes." I would say that means he can, at the very least, simulate a divine rank to avoid dying.




Except Trap the Soul disallows the ability to kick any ass.

I'd use Imprisonment myself, preceded by Mage's Disjunction and covering him with a Selective AMF.

Trap the soul disallows any ability to kick ass except if you have shown the ability to still kick ass when your soul is trapped. A creature could easily have a supernatural ability allowing him to break out of Trap the Soul.

[Tainted_Scholar]

From the Dr. Strange wiki:

This ability to be a conduit to multiversal power sources has given rise to the phrase "Dr. Strange is as powerful as the god he invokes." I would say that means he can, at the very least, simulate a divine rank to avoid dying.


Being more powerful than a god doesn't make you one. He would specifically need divinity to survive.
Also he wouldn't get a chance to act, the god would just use celerity and then Divine Splendor to kill him.

[Hackulator]

If you want to view Dr. Strange as a D&D wizard, think of him as a very high level epic wizard who has access to hundreds of already researched epic spells which cover a VAST number of situations. That comes SOMEWHERE near explaining his power level.


Being more powerful than a god doesn't make you one. He would specifically need divinity to survive.
Also he wouldn't get a chance to act, the god would just use celerity and then Divine Splendor to kill him.

When did this become a fight against a god btw?

[Tainted_Scholar]

If you want to view Dr. Strange as a D&D wizard, think of him as a very high level epic wizard who has access to hundreds of already researched epic spells which cover a VAST number of situations. That comes SOMEWHERE near explaining his power level.

An Epic D&D Wizard can literally give himself infinite XP, and produce infinite Damage.

Also that still doesn't counter Divine Splendor.

[ColorBlindNinja]

From the Dr. Strange wiki:

This ability to be a conduit to multiversal power sources has given rise to the phrase "Dr. Strange is as powerful as the god he invokes." I would say that means he can, at the very least, simulate a divine rank to avoid dying.

Clerics channel their own gods for their powers and that hardly stops them from being killed by it. That's hardly conclusive evidence; it sounds more like a saying to me.



Trap the soul disallows any ability to kick ass except if you have shown the ability to still kick ass when your soul is trapped. A creature could easily have a supernatural ability allowing him to break out of Trap the Soul.

Can you show evidence that Dr. Strange possesses such an ability?

Edit:

Also he wouldn't get a chance to act, the god would just use celerity and then Divine Splendor to kill him.

Supreme Initiative would be sufficient.

@Hackulator: We're using an Ice Assassin of a god.

[Scots Dragon]

So how's the wizard getting the ability to use Divine Splendour on Doctor Strange in the first place.

A scroll of ice assassin would be outside of the ability of a wish spell to create since it would require material components far beyond the abilities of a wish spell to produce, specifically not only the 20,000 gp diamond dust but the specially prepared plus 3,000+ gp to for the materials of the scroll, plus a piece of an actual deity and duplicating anything divine is explicitly beyond. Not to mention that it duplicates a 9th-level spell and wish spells are limited to 8th-level or lower.

So, the wizard would have to go to the deity and... suddenly die by being within 10 ft./divine rank of said deity.

And even if the wizard were successfully able to use a wish spell to create an ice assassin, they'd suddenly die by being within 10 ft./divine rank of the ice assassin of the deity because they themselves are mortal and the spell has a touch range. It's really hard to then order the ice assassin to do anything but go after the original deity. Who'd likely have noticed a duplicate of themselves being created and come and kill you for trying to do so even if you survived that process.

It's really not a sound plan.

[Hackulator]

Clerics channel their own gods for their powers and that hardly stops them from being killed by it. That's hardly conclusive evidence; it sounds more like a saying to me.




Can you show evidence that Dr. Strange possesses such an ability?

Other than memory, no I do not currently have an indexed library of all Dr. Strange comics....cause that would be insane....

[ColorBlindNinja]

So how's the wizard getting the ability to use Divine Splendour on Doctor Strange in the first place.

A scroll of ice assassin would be outside of the ability of a wish spell to create since it would require material components far beyond the abilities of a wish spell to produce, specifically not only the 20,000 gp diamond dust but the specially prepared plus 3,000+ gp to for the materials of the scroll, plus a piece of an actual deity and duplicating anything divine is explicitly beyond. Not to mention that it duplicates a 9th-level spell and wish spells are limited to 8th-level or lower.

Wish for a Trap or Spellclock.

You could just cast it yourself, using Uncanny Forethought to cut the casting time, Wish for the material components (and Eschew Materials) and a Thought Bottle for the XP.


So, the wizard would have to go to the deity and... suddenly die by being within 10 ft./divine rank of said deity.[

And even if the wizard were successfully able to use a wish spell, they'd suddenly die by being within 10 ft./divine rank of the ice assassin of the deity because they themselves are mortal and the spell has a touch range.

Gods can suppress their auras. You can communicate with it telepathically over a fair range.

[Tainted_Scholar]

So how's the wizard getting the ability to use Divine Splendour on Doctor Strange in the first place.

A scroll of ice assassin would be outside of the ability of a wish spell to create since it would require material components far beyond the abilities of a wish spell to produce, specifically not only the 20,000 gp diamond dust but the specially prepared plus 3,000+ gp to for the materials of the scroll, plus a piece of an actual deity and duplicating anything divine is explicitly beyond. Not to mention that it duplicates a 9th-level spell and wish spells are limited to 8th-level or lower.

The Wizard doesn't need a scroll, she can cast the spell herself. Eschew Materials takes care of the needing a piece of the god.


So, the wizard would have to go to the deity and... suddenly die by being within 10 ft./divine rank of said deity.

And even if the wizard were successfully able to use a wish spell, they'd suddenly die by being within 10 ft./divine rank of the ice assassin of the deity because they themselves are mortal and the spell has a touch range.

Except it wouldn't kill her, it would kill her Astral Projection. Or she could just have a contingency that teleports her out when Splendor is used.

[Hackulator]

@Hackulator: We're using an Ice Assassin of a god.

You need a piece of the creature to make an ice assassin.....so there is a god helping you?

Also as soon as you create it you die cause it has divine splendor (blah blah astral projection etc etc we can argue about this).

Also it immediately goes off to fight the god it is a copy off cause that is what ice assassins do.

[Scots Dragon]

Wish for a Trap or Spellclock.

You could just cast it yourself, using Uncanny Forethought to cut the casting time, Wish for the material components (and Eschew Materials) and a Thought Bottle for the XP.

That still doesn't get around the fact that wish cannot reproduce another 9th-level spell without issues. And I'm pretty sure 'portion of a god', is way beyond the gold piece requirements of either wish or eschew materials; they're traditionally in outright artefact territory.


Gods can suppress their auras.

They can, but does the ice assassin have any reason to upon immediately coming to life?

[ColorBlindNinja]

That still doesn't get around the fact that wish cannot reproduce another 9th-level spell without issues. And I'm pretty sure 'portion of a god', is way beyond the gold piece requirements of either wish or eschew materials; they're traditionally in outright artefact territory.

DNA of gods doesn't have a GP value.

Wish is more than capable of creating magic items that have 9th level spell effects.



They can, but does the ice assassin have any reason to upon immediately coming to life?

Just don't stand near the Spellclock in question?


Also it immediately goes off to fight the god it is a copy off cause that is what ice assassins do.

No, it's under the Wizard's absolute control.

[Tainted_Scholar]

That still doesn't get around the fact that wish cannot reproduce another 9th-level spell without issues. And I'm pretty sure 'portion of a god', is way beyond the gold piece requirements of either wish or eschew materials; they're traditionally in outright artefact territory.



They can, but does the ice assassin have any reason to upon immediately coming to life?

Um, you didn't address any of my points.

[Tainted_Scholar]

Also it immediately goes off to fight the god it is a copy off cause that is what ice assassins do.

You can control the Ice assassin.

[Hackulator]

The Wizard doesn't need a scroll, she can cast the spell herself. Eschew Materials takes care of the needing a piece of the god.



Except it wouldn't kill her, it would kill her Astral Projection. Or she could just have a contingency that teleports her out when Splendor is used.

Pretty confident "piece of a god" counts as an expensive spell component.

[Tainted_Scholar]

Pretty confident "piece of a god" counts as an expensive spell component.

It doesn't have a GP value so you have no evidence to back that claim up.

[Scots Dragon]

DNA of gods doesn't have a GP value.

The closest thing we have to rules for that is instances where body-parts of lesser gods have appeared. The Hand and Eye of Vecna are major artefacts, and were severed before Vecna even became a god as far as I recall. They technically don't have gold piece costs for them because it's literally impossible to put a price on how valuable they are. So... yeah, no.

Eschew Materials being used to reproduce pieces of the gods themselves is a complete nonsense reading.


Wish is more than capable of creating magic items that have 9th level spell effects.

Prove it. It says it can create magic items and 8th-level spell effects. The former does not necessarily cancel the latter out.

[Hackulator]

It doesn't have a GP value so you have evidence to back that claim up.

Pretty sure if you asked any DM in any game "if I could theoretically buy a piece of a living god, how much it would cost" the answer would definitely be over 1 gold piece. We could do a poll if you want!

[ColorBlindNinja]

Pretty sure if you asked any DM in any game "if I could theoretically buy a piece of a living god, how much it would cost" the answer would definitely be over 1 gold piece. We could do a poll if you want!

That's irrelevant; this is a TO discussion. What DMs will or won't allow is of no consequence here.


The closest thing we have to rules for that is instances where body-parts of lesser gods have appeared. The Hand and Eye of Vecna are major artefacts, and were severed before Vecna even became a god as far as I recall. They technically don't have gold piece costs for them because it's literally impossible to put a price on how valuable they are. So... yeah, no.

Unless you can list a price, your argument has no rules backing. I'm not using wish for artifacts, I'm wishing for a DNA sample.


Eschew Materials being used to reproduce pieces of the gods themselves is a complete nonsense reading.
It is a RAW reading.



Prove it. It says it can create magic items and 8th-level spell effects. The former does not necessarily cancel the latter out.

Yes it does, they're listed separately in the description. No limits are given on what magic items you can wish for.

[Tainted_Scholar]

The closest thing we have to rules for that is instances where body-parts of lesser gods have appeared. The Hand and Eye of Vecna are major artefacts, and were severed before Vecna even became a god as far as I recall. They technically don't have gold piece costs for them because it's literally impossible to put a price on how valuable they are. So... yeah, no.

Eschew Materials being used to reproduce pieces of the gods themselves is a complete nonsense reading.

No, it's a literal reading of the text. God Parts don't have a listed GP value, therefore they don't cost anything in RAW. Eschew Materials can stand in for anything worth less than a silver piece, and since God Parts aren't even worth that it can stand in for them.


Also, if all else fails the Wizard can just Diplomacy/Bluff Strange into submission with skill buffs.

Strange: "I will defeat you"

Wizard: "Hey could you please surrender? I promise I won't do anything bad."

Strange: "Well when you put it way."

[Scots Dragon]

No, it's a literal reading of the text. God Parts don't have a listed GP value, therefor they don't cost anything in RAW. Eschew Materials can stand in for anything worth less than a silver piece, and since God Parts aren't even worth that it can stand in for them.

Except, the only canonical god parts we have access to — the Hand and Eye of Vecna — are major artefacts, which wish cannot reproduce.

[Tainted_Scholar]

Except, the only canonical god parts we have access to — the Hand and Eye of Vecna — are major artefacts, which wish cannot reproduce.

What does Wish have to do with this? We're talking about Eschew Materials.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Except, the only canonical god parts we have access to — the Hand and Eye of Vecna — are major artefacts, which wish cannot reproduce.

Artifact != god DNA. They're not the same thing. Besides, Artifacts have no GP limit either and are thus game for Eschew Materials.

[Scots Dragon]

What does Wish have to do with this? We're talking about Eschew Materials.

Fair point, sorry.

Eschew Materials can't reproduce them either because the cost would be way, way higher than a single gold piece. They don't have a listed price because it's impossible to recreate them and they are one-of-a-kind items.

[Hackulator]

That's irrelevant; this is a TO discussion. What DMs will or won't allow is of no consequence here.



Unless you can list a price, your argument has no rules backing. I'm not using wishing for artifacts, I'm wishing for a DNA sample.


It is a RAW reading.




Yes it does, they're listed separately in the description. No limits are given on what magic items you can wish for.

That is not RAW, that is rules interpreted how you want them. The exact text of eschew materials is

"You can cast any spell with a material component costing 1 gp or less without needing that component. The casting of the spell still provokes attacks of opportunity as normal. If the spell requires a material component that costs more than 1 gp, you must have the material component on hand to cast the spell, as normal."

or

"A spell cast with Eschew Materials can be cast with no material components. Spells without material components are not affected. Spells with material components with a cost of more than 1 gp are not affected. An eschewed spell uses up a spell slot zero levels higher than (the same as) the spell's actual level."

Simply because the people who wrote the books did not include everything that could ever exist in their equipment tables does not mean things not on those tables have a value of 0. That is an inane reading in an attempt to do something that is clearly outside of the intention of the power.

As for the statement "what DMs would say doesn't matter" yes, I will admit that if you are allowed to stack every ability in the game on your wizard making all the rules calls in your favor as to what you can do, you could probably defeat Doctor Strange, but you have at that point basically taken the Narrative power you denied to me, given it to yourself and claimed some sort of victory.

I feel like I won, I'm good here.

[Tainted_Scholar]

Fair point, sorry.

Eschew Materials can't reproduce them either because the cost would be way, way higher than a single gold piece. They don't have a listed price because it's impossible to recreate them and they are one-of-a-kind items.

Again though, since they don't have a listed price, then in RAW they aren't worth any money. Therefore Eschew Materials can stand in for them. I know it's silly and doesn't make sense but that's how it works in RAW.

[Tainted_Scholar]

That is not RAW, that is rules interpreted how you want them. The exact text of eschew materials is

"You can cast any spell with a material component costing 1 gp or less without needing that component. The casting of the spell still provokes attacks of opportunity as normal. If the spell requires a material component that costs more than 1 gp, you must have the material component on hand to cast the spell, as normal."

or

"A spell cast with Eschew Materials can be cast with no material components. Spells without material components are not affected. Spells with material components with a cost of more than 1 gp are not affected. An eschewed spell uses up a spell slot zero levels higher than (the same as) the spell's actual level."

Simply because the people who wrote the books did not include everything that could ever exist in their equipment tables does not mean things not on those tables have a value of 0. That is an inane reading in an attempt to do something that is clearly outside of the intention of the power.

As for the statement "what DMs would say doesn't matter" yes, I will admit that if you are allowed to stack every ability in the game on your wizard making all the rules calls in your favor as to what you can do, you could probably defeat Doctor Strange, but you have at that point basically taken the Narrative power you denied to me, given it to yourself and claimed some sort of victory.

I feel like I won, I'm good here.

Um, good for you then?:smallconfused:

[ColorBlindNinja]

Fair point, sorry.

Eschew Materials can't reproduce them either because the cost would be way, way higher than a single gold piece. They don't have a listed price because it's impossible to recreate them and they are one-of-a-kind items.

Artifacts aren't really important to this discussion, but unless you can show a GP cost for god DNA, your argument has no RAW basis.

Saying that there are artifacts that contain god DNA isn't enough. This is like claiming that you can't wish for metal, because there's an artifact that is made out metal.


That is not RAW, that is rules interpreted how you want them. The exact text of eschew materials is

"You can cast any spell with a material component costing 1 gp or less without needing that component. The casting of the spell still provokes attacks of opportunity as normal. If the spell requires a material component that costs more than 1 gp, you must have the material component on hand to cast the spell, as normal."

or

"A spell cast with Eschew Materials can be cast with no material components. Spells without material components are not affected. Spells with material components with a cost of more than 1 gp are not affected. An eschewed spell uses up a spell slot zero levels higher than (the same as) the spell's actual level."

Simply because the people who wrote the books did not include everything that could ever exist in their equipment tables does not mean things not on those tables have a value of 0. That is an inane reading in an attempt to do something that is clearly outside of the intention of the power.

That's simply how the rules work.


As for the statement "what DMs would say doesn't matter" yes, I will admit that if you are allowed to stack every ability in the game on your wizard making all the rules calls in your favor as to what you can do, you could probably defeat Doctor Strange, but you have at that point basically taken the Narrative power you denied to me, given it to yourself and claimed some sort of victory.

I feel like I won, I'm good here.

Narrative power has nothing to due with the abilities of a character. I have quoted text from the rules to support my arguments; indeed much of what I've proposed is common TO.

[woweedd]

Hmmm...ON the one hand, a Level 20 Wizard has spells that make them god-level powerful. On the othe rhand, the Doctor has half a century's worth of spells, amassed by dozens of writers, all with different ideas of what "magic" means. I"m not sure there is a concrete winner here. Pretty much any abused feat a D & D WIzard can pull, you can find a panel somewhere of the Doc doing something equally ridiculous.

[SimonMoon6]

Dr. Strange has survived inside the sun, traveled through time under his own power to win fights he had lost or was going to lose, and defeated God in a fight (yes like, the judeo-christian god).

And he was defeated by Plantman.

[Scots Dragon]

And he was defeated by Plantman.

Having not prepared the right spells or taken on unprepared, I'm pretty sure the wizard with its half-BAB, d4 hit dice, and strength-as-dump-stat wouldn't really fare much better.