When the going gets tough, the tough... get frustrated.

[hethoran]

Hey all, I'm a DM of a number of years now(6 I think), but in that time I have yet for a campaign to happen at high levels yet. Mostly this is because I often have players switching out, and the group hasn't pushed for it. My preference is for lower levels anyway for reasons just like the problem I am about to share.

As a few extra details, I am currently working with a group of 4 players, two are relatively new and the other two have been players with me since I started playing. They are all level 7 at the moment and I haven't been throwing anything more than 1-2 CR above their level for the
occasional Boss.

I've noticed that my players do not take well to any enemies that have powerful abilities. The kinds of times that I notice this include high damaging abilities(meaning more than 10 in a single hit), High AC enemies (Higher than 21), Spell Resistance (Any amount), or saving throw abilities that take players out of a fight.

Any time I have an enemy do one of these things, my players will grow frustrated almost immediately and obviously display feelings of defeat or hopelessness. I am certainly not a DM out to kill my players, but with them starting to branch out into higher levels these kinds of enemies need to show up more and more often. I'm not sure whether I am doing something wrong, or if I should be somehow better easing my players into it. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

[EvulOne]

There are ways around just about every challenge that any monster/encounter might have. It may help them if you provide them with the means at least once, to get them to start thinking outside the box. AC too high? Make sure their spell casters have touch attack spells or items.

Don't give them the key to the challenge too often...just enough to get them to think....maybe once a session or every other session. After a while they'll start doing it on their own and come up with their own methods.

[Alcore]

Well.... They say the game breaks down at 10 or so. Your not quite there yet. So i guess instead is to attack the problem this way;


How do the characters deal with it? We hear of the players and even a lack of a TPK but not what actual hardship they face. (edit: do they just rush in d20s rolling?)

Is there foreshadowing of said monsters? Do they use any time to prepare or do they look for the exit?

What do they want out of this? I could see some of my characters retiring at 7. They might not want to save the world.

I noticed two are veterans of your style. If assume 'low level' means 1-5 then how well did older players handle former end game bosses? They likely were strong enough to equal the current party individually.

Lastly... What have they been facing? Orcs and goblins are a poor training tool for future battles against succubi and imps. Start recording the basic monster types and if you have old records go over them. They might not of faced anything close in fighting style to what they presently face.

[Kaleph]

Hey all, I'm a DM of a number of years now(6 I think), but in that time I have yet for a campaign to happen at high levels yet. Mostly this is because I often have players switching out, and the group hasn't pushed for it. My preference is for lower levels anyway for reasons just like the problem I am about to share.

As a few extra details, I am currently working with a group of 4 players, two are relatively new and the other two have been players with me since I started playing. They are all level 7 at the moment and I haven't been throwing anything more than 1-2 CR above their level for the
occasional Boss.

I've noticed that my players do not take well to any enemies that have powerful abilities. The kinds of times that I notice this include high damaging abilities(meaning more than 10 in a single hit), High AC enemies (Higher than 21), Spell Resistance (Any amount), or saving throw abilities that take players out of a fight.

Any time I have an enemy do one of these things, my players will grow frustrated almost immediately and obviously display feelings of defeat or hopelessness. I am certainly not a DM out to kill my players, but with them starting to branch out into higher levels these kinds of enemies need to show up more and more often. I'm not sure whether I am doing something wrong, or if I should be somehow better easing my players into it. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

It doesn't look like you're doing something wrong per se, but consider that the best master is the one, who gives the players the adventures they're happy with.

As a rule of thumb, first of all try to avoid SoD and SoL, because they can easily cause frustration - and rightfully so.

If I understand correctly, you deal with casual players; if so, there's nothing necessarily wrong in keeping the challenge rating artificially low, if the PC's are not up to the task: the important is that they are actually challenged, not that the CR is adequate according to the MM.

Now, if instead your players simply like "easy wins" and hate to have to think on their feet / respectively, to carefully plan in advance their strategies, you may try to ask them for some more commitment (while remaining still friendly as a DM, as I explained above). This is applicable, for example, if the players seem to refuse any-possible-complication, added up to the basic, flat combat routines. Complaining about difficult terrain since they cannot charge is another example that comes to mind, and has nothing strictly to do in the first place with CR.

In this case, try to speak to your players, and explain them different approaches to combat. Recommend them to use spells that ignore spell resistance. Let them find a mantle of second chance, to re-roll failed ST. Point them to BFC strategies, that may limit the enemies' effectiveness. Run a session 0 when creating the PC', and steer them away from the traps that make them unable to hit the monsters (I mean, AC21 at level 7 isn't that much of a challenge, I believe).

[Godskook]

I've noticed that my players do not take well to any enemies that have powerful abilities. The kinds of times that I notice this include high damaging abilities(meaning more than 10 in a single hit), High AC enemies (Higher than 21), Spell Resistance (Any amount), or saving throw abilities that take players out of a fight.

The hard answer, to tell your players: Git gud scrubs

Seriously, 10 damage in a single-hit is absolutely *TRIVIAL* for CR 3s. 22 AC is non-trivial, but not exceedingly difficult to come by at CR 3. A potion of Shield of Faith, Cat's Grace and Breastplate gets 19 AC. Getting +3 AC from Dex, Shield, and other stuff isn't really asking much. As far as saving-throw abilities go, I'm not a fan of long-duration CC, because that effectively sidelines a player during an entertaining moment of the game, but there's no *OTHER* reason to object to them. And Spell Resistance shouldn't be anymore of a problem than base saving throws in the first place. Do they have a problem with not being treated like snowflakes?

The soft answer: Talk to your players, and figure out what kind of game you all want to play, and then play that game. Do they want to play a game where build-skill and strategy matter? Or do they just want to use combat as a backlight for their stories?

[Starbuck_II]

As a few extra details, I am currently working with a group of 4 players, two are relatively new and the other two have been players with me since I started playing. They are all level 7 at the moment and I haven't been throwing anything more than 1-2 CR above their level for the
occasional Boss.

I've noticed that my players do not take well to any enemies that have powerful abilities. The kinds of times that I notice this include high damaging abilities(meaning more than 10 in a single hit), High AC enemies (Higher than 21), Spell Resistance (Any amount), or saving throw abilities that take players out of a fight.

Cribbed it to these facts:
Are any full BAB?
At level 7, 21 AC is not hard, heck 28 isn't hard.
Say a Barbarian: we expect 7 BAB, +1 enhancement weapon minimum, Rage +2 hit/dam (+4 Str), maybe 21 Str (+2 Belt, 17 Starting strength, +1 level maybe) =7+1+2 5 from Str= Hit +14 hit.
So he hits a 28 on a 14, around a 30% accuracy.
Not counting Weapon Focus, Buff effects like Bardic Music, Good hope, Bless/Prayer, Haste, Flanking, etc.
This is potions are expected and tactics like flanking.

Now, 28 is mid tier AC for CR 9, Mid or full boss fights. Not a true tank, who might reach upwards of 30 or higher.
Against CR 7, this Barbarian faces at most 25 at most normally (28 for true tank). Meaning he will hit on a 11 (again no buffs).

Now, Barbs are the best hitters, Fighters have higher AC to make up for their flaws. Fighters need buffs to get close to Barb's awesomeness.

So a Fighter is looking at WF (he has feats to spare), 7 BAB, 21 BAB (+2 Belt, 17 to 18 Str, +1 Level), +1 weapon minimum= 9 + 4=13 , again a 30% vs AC 28.

Tripping builds help as they are target touch AC in 3.5 D%D. And prone enemies lowering AC by 4.

[atemu1234]

Cribbed it to these facts:
Are any full BAB?
At level 7, 21 AC is not hard, heck 28 isn't hard.
Say a Barbarian: we expect 7 BAB, +1 enhancement weapon minimum, Rage +2 hit/dam (+4 Str), maybe 21 Str (+2 Belt, 17 Starting strength, +1 level maybe) =7+1+2 5 from Str= Hit +14 hit.
So he hits a 28 on a 14, around a 30% accuracy.
Not counting Weapon Focus, Buff effects like Bardic Music, Good hope, Bless/Prayer, Haste, Flanking, etc.
This is potions are expected and tactics like flanking.

Now, 28 is mid tier AC for CR 9, Mid or full boss fights. Not a true tank, who might reach upwards of 30 or higher.
Against CR 7, this Barbarian faces at most 25 at most normally (28 for true tank). Meaning he will hit on a 11 (again no buffs).

Now, Barbs are the best hitters, Fighters have higher AC to make up for their flaws. Fighters need buffs to get close to Barb's awesomeness.

So a Fighter is looking at WF (he has feats to spare), 7 BAB, 21 BAB (+2 Belt, 17 to 18 Str, +1 Level), +1 weapon minimum= 9 + 4=13 , again a 30% vs AC 28.

Tripping builds help as they are target touch AC in 3.5 D%D. And prone enemies lowering AC by 4.

Those are pretty high expectations for the magical objects in the possession of a level three character. Heck, +4 strength mod at that level is big for most groups. Magic weapons are a -maybe- at that level, though it's assumed if you're fighting shadows or allips. Not every group has a dedicated buffer, and most people on these forums agree weapon focus isn't worth the feat unless you need it for a prereq. You'll be lucky, at that level, if you have +8 to hit or +9.

[denthor]

Hey all, I'm a DM of a number of years now(6 I think), but in that time I have yet for a campaign to happen at high levels yet. Mostly this is because I often have players switching out, and the group hasn't pushed for it. My preference is for lower levels anyway for reasons just like the problem I am about to share.

As a few extra details, I am currently working with a group of 4 players, two are relatively new and the other two have been players with me since I started playing. They are all level 7 at the moment and I haven't been throwing anything more than 1-2 CR above their level for the
occasional Boss.

I've noticed that my players do not take well to any enemies that have powerful abilities. The kinds of times that I notice this include high damaging abilities(meaning more than 10 in a single hit), High AC enemies (Higher than 21), Spell Resistance (Any amount), or saving throw abilities that take players out of a fight.

Any time I have an enemy do one of these things, my players will grow frustrated almost immediately and obviously display feelings of defeat or hopelessness. I am certainly not a DM out to kill my players, but with them starting to branch out into higher levels these kinds of enemies need to show up more and more often. I'm not sure whether I am doing something wrong, or if I should be somehow better easing my players into it. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Ok so they do not like a 3rd level thief doing a sneak attack out of invisibility with a 14 strength for a bonus of +2.

damage 1d8 +2 (4 average+2 for strength= 6) + 2d6 7 average 6+7= 13?

did I read that right?

[Baby Gary]

Those are pretty high expectations for the magical objects in the possession of a level three character. Heck, +4 strength mod at that level is big for most groups. Magic weapons are a -maybe- at that level, though it's assumed if you're fighting shadows or allips. Not every group has a dedicated buffer, and most people on these forums agree weapon focus isn't worth the feat unless you need it for a prereq. You'll be lucky, at that level, if you have +8 to hit or +9.

I think that you read that wrong. First @Starbuck_II was talking about 7th level character, and without buffs and things like weapon foucus. Also +4 str is not a lot at 7th level, Its super easy to get at least +6, almost every melee character has that (17 str, +2 because of race, +1 @ 4th level +2 belt).

[atemu1234]

I think that you read that wrong. First @Starbuck_II was talking about 7th level character, and without buffs and things like weapon foucus. Also +4 str is not a lot at 7th level, Its super easy to get at least +6, almost every melee character has that (17 str, +2 because of race, +1 @ 4th level +2 belt).

The only PHB core race with a strength buff is half-orc, which most avoid out of spite. Typically I've seen 16 from point buy, +1 at fourth and a +2 belt at that point is reasonable.

[Baby Gary]

The only PHB core race with a strength buff is half-orc, which most avoid out of spite. Typically I've seen 16 from point buy, +1 at fourth and a +2 belt at that point is reasonable.

LA 0 races with str buffs:Azerblood, Lesser; Bakemono; Cyclopean, Feral-Kind; Darfellan; Dwarf, Aquatic; Dwarf, Arctic; Dwarf, Earth; Elf, Wood; Genasi, Earth, Lesser; most half-orc variants; Hengeyokai, Raccoon Dog (Hybrid Form); Minotaur, Krynn; Neanderthal; all orc variants; Para-Genasi, Magma, Lesser; Shalarin; Zenythri, Lesser. Those are not all the races with + to str (some have greater than +2), if you want the books of any of them just ask.

LA 0 templates:Proto-Creature and Wild (AKA Wilderness-Dweller)
(link (https://web.archive.org/web/20170217191257/http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1281.0) to page with all the races and books)

also a barbarian (or fighter) with 32 point buy can easily get at least 17 in str (so at 4th level the mod will increase) with plenty to spare for con and dex (dex is not as important for a fighter so you would probably put the points into int).

[Starbuck_II]

Those are pretty high expectations for the magical objects in the possession of a level three character. Heck, +4 strength mod at that level is big for most groups. Magic weapons are a -maybe- at that level, though it's assumed if you're fighting shadows or allips. Not every group has a dedicated buffer, and most people on these forums agree weapon focus isn't worth the feat unless you need it for a prereq. You'll be lucky, at that level, if you have +8 to hit or +9.

Why did you think they were 3rd level? He said they 7th now.

Now, not doing more than 10 means they are dump Str character like Dex focused Weapon finesse types? Hard to say what OP means.

[ATHATH]

Just for future reference, if you prefer lower-level gameplay, check out the E6 variant. Long-story short, after level 6, PCs get feats whenever they would normally gain levels. See here (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?206323-E6-The-Game-Inside-D-amp-D) for more details.

[ngilop]

I am confused beyond explanation on how dealing more than 10 damage per attack is too much damage.

that what guys do at first level on average. 2d6+4 or is normal for a melee brute so 11 damage on average.

it just kinda goes up from there.

[Florian]

Any time I have an enemy do one of these things, my players will grow frustrated almost immediately and obviously display feelings of defeat or hopelessness. I am certainly not a DM out to kill my players, but with them starting to branch out into higher levels these kinds of enemies need to show up more and more often. I'm not sure whether I am doing something wrong, or if I should be somehow better easing my players into it. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Sorry, there´s no help for that. Best be very clear and up front about the fact that encounters will get more difficult when leveling up. As been already stated: "Git gud or git out!". Higher level encounters can actually be quite similar to puzzles as you have to figure out what options work and which not, so this will probably frustrate your players even more.

[Sam K]

What kind of party are they running? Are they extremely sub-optimized, to the point where these challenges are actually too difficult for them?

Also, do they have access to the gear they need to overcome the challenges? As the examples above show, AC 28 can be hit somewhat reliably by a barb with base str 16, a +1 weapon and a str boost, but depending on optimisation level the party beatstick could be a fighter with str 13 and no buffs!

In my experience, if I have access to tools to beat tough challenges (through build, tactics or equipment), OR if I have had a reasonable chance to figure out what I will be up against and make preparations, challenges are fun. If I'm facing things where I just have to throw a lot of D20s and hope some of them roll high, before the enemy rolls high, I get frustrated.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Do not, under any circumstances, adopt a "git gud" attitude. Your job isn't to be a drill sergeant teaching your victims how to survive in fantasy land, it's to be an enabler for your friends to have fun pretending to be elves.

Save-or-lose abilities are, obviously, a frustration for anyone. D&D has far too many ways to get taken out of a fight with a single roll; avoiding them is entirely reasonable. The rest-- damage, AC, SR-- seem to be an optimization levels question. So... important questions:

How optimized are your players? What are their builds and stats like? AC 21 at 7th level sounds low to us, but I can see it being daunting for, say, a low-op Monk.
Did you guys start around this level, or did they work their way up from low ones? If they're used to fighting things like Goblins and Ogres, they might just be getting thrown off by the numbers being bigger than they're used to.
Do they have the items they need? High-level D&D does start to get highly dependent on WBL, especially for non-magic characters. If you don't have your stat/save/AC boosting items and your magic weapons, your numbers aren't going to be right at all. If you don't have healing wands and the like, attrition will bite you in the ***. That sort of thing.


As for suggested solutions... the first round is talking, obviously. Figure out what sort of game they want and why they feel panicked at not-actually-that-high-for-the-level numbers. You might gently check to make sure they've been doing their own math right, that sort of thing-- especially the newbies. AC 21 looks a lot scarier if, say, you forgot to add your BAB; 10 damage is a lot if you're a d8 melee who forgot they get their Con in hit points every level. You might also rely on minion-type encounters more often. It sounds like they find single large threats scarier than death-by-a-thousand-cuts type deals? It can certainly be fun to slaughter waves of goblins...

[Maximum Carnage]

This is going to seem extremely harsh, but that kind of behavior needs to be discouraged... It would seem as though they're trying to condition you to play in the manner that THEY want. If every time you throw a tough monster at them, they piss and moan, then before you know it, you're going to stop giving them tough monsters.

So in my opinion, next time they start to whine and complain about a frustrating encounter, make it harder right before their eyes. (IE: More hit points for the monster instantly.) Let it be known that whining will get you nowhere. If they want to engage in civil discourse, that's different. But if they let out a heavy sigh, roll their eyes, or scoff at tough combat situations, show them you can make an encounter impossible.

With your 6 years of experience in DMing, I assume you have a good handle on what CR monsters your PCs should be facing, so don't be afraid to pull rank on them. Without you there is no game, and they don't seem to appreciate that.

[Grod_The_Giant]

With your 6 years of experience in DMing, I assume you have a good handle on what CR monsters your PCs should be facing, so don't be afraid to pull rank on them. Without you there is no game, and they don't seem to appreciate that.
There's also no game without them. It's a two-way street, and I promise you that being an authoritative, vindictive **** behind the screen is far more toxic than sticking to an easy and/or low-level game.

[Florian]

There's also no game without them. It's a two-way street, and I promise you that being an authoritative, vindictive **** behind the screen is far more toxic than sticking to an easy and/or low-level game.

Hm... I partly agree. It should be a given that you have to work with your players, not against them, as this is a cooperative game on more levels than some people seem to realize. That also means gauging their abilities and adapting the system to fit.

But.... This game also has a constant learning curve, needing the players to adapt to new toys and tactics while leveling up. That´s the part where players have to invest time to do their research and know the rules and if they don´t want to do that, they will suffer.

[Maximum Carnage]

There's also no game without them. It's a two-way street, and I promise you that being an authoritative, vindictive **** behind the screen is far more toxic than sticking to an easy and/or low-level game.

You're correct, but let's not pretend for one second that he couldn't find replacement players in no time. There are FAR more PCs than DMs.

You seem to have omitted a section of my post, because I said civil discourse is different altogether. BUT, if your players are too busy bitching and moaning to talk to you about the level of difficulty, they aren't worth your time.

I'm a no nonsense, no bull**** kind of DM, because this system has made me cold. I'm not telling him how to run the game, I'm giving my two cents.

[BearonVonMu]

You're correct, but let's not pretend for one second that he couldn't find replacement players in no time. There are FAR more PCs than DMs.


Some games happen in smaller towns or less populated areas. I would be intensely hard pressed to repopulate my table if the players here left.

[Maximum Carnage]

Some games happen in smaller towns or less populated areas. I would be intensely hard pressed to repopulate my table if the players here left.

I suppose if you have a house game going, that would be a different story. However, people are clamoring to get into games on websites such as Roll20. Supply < Demand on the internet.

[Florian]

Some games happen in smaller towns or less populated areas. I would be intensely hard pressed to repopulate my table if the players here left.

Too true. I´m living in a capital city and I´m having problems finding/replacing players in my age category.


I suppose if you have a house game going, that would be a different story. However, people are clamoring to get into games on websites such as Roll20. Supply < Demand on the internet.

Personally, I´ve zero interest in gaming online or using a PbP format. I´ve tried, as a player in a Dragonlance campaign and as gm hosting a Battletech/A Time of War game and it´s simply not the same experience.

[Quertus]

Unless you are then to each play multiple characters - and sometimes even then - So_ effects are frustrating. It's no fun sorting out 3d4 rounds, watching to see if whoever is still conscious can defeat the Illithid.

[Florian]

Unless you are then to each play multiple characters - and sometimes even then - So_ effects are frustrating. It's no fun sorting out 3d4 rounds, watching to see if whoever is still conscious can defeat the Illithid.

Well, part of the learning process is finding ways to use your resources to deal with just that. You learn to wear armor or cast a buff spell at first level, you should learn to use different kind of "armor" when facing later challenges. That´s the difference of a Medusa being a killing encounter to be dreaded or something you can handle. The only solution to not go there would be E6.

[Alcore]

I suppose if you have a house game going, that would be a different story. However, people are clamoring to get into games on websites such as Roll20. Supply < Demand on the internet.

Pbp doesn't work for everyone. I like to play and when I'm good I'm good getting a dozen posts a day if possible. But i get 'bad'. I lose interest, i wake up one morning and say 'not today' or 'I'm not feeling it'. Well too bad, i have an obligation of one post a day. Or a week and then attrition will make the game a boring slog. It becomes work. I hate working.


I live in a place that is still a bible belt. I think i know more real devil worshipers than dnd players.



But i digress. Anyone hear from the OP? :smallconfused:

[hethoran]

Wow, sorry to post and disappear like that. This week has been more busy than I imagined it would be. That being said, Thanks all for the great ideas. You've given me some good stuff to chew on.

[hethoran]

Well.... They say the game breaks down at 10 or so. Your not quite there yet. So i guess instead is to attack the problem this way;


How do the characters deal with it? We hear of the players and even a lack of a TPK but not what actual hardship they face. (edit: do they just rush in d20s rolling?)

Is there foreshadowing of said monsters? Do they use any time to prepare or do they look for the exit?

What do they want out of this? I could see some of my characters retiring at 7. They might not want to save the world.

I noticed two are veterans of your style. If assume 'low level' means 1-5 then how well did older players handle former end game bosses? They likely were strong enough to equal the current party individually.

Lastly... What have they been facing? Orcs and goblins are a poor training tool for future battles against succubi and imps. Start recording the basic monster types and if you have old records go over them. They might not of faced anything close in fighting style to what they presently face.

Largely the types of creatures that start frustrating them most recent was an Ice Devil, a watered down Inevitable(End Boss they fought at 8), Fallen Angel, and a Lich. My two Vets were mostly at the low levels because we often have problems with out of game stuff causing a campaign to derail and leading to a new one. The one vet isn't very talkative but does keep trying things. The other was a pretty basic Rogue, and did the same thing the newbies did and just kind of threw up his hands in defeat when stabbing it didn't work too well. I've tried to forshadow most of them, but the players don't tend to pick up on it and often do just go rushing into a fight.

[hethoran]

Do not, under any circumstances, adopt a "git gud" attitude. Your job isn't to be a drill sergeant teaching your victims how to survive in fantasy land, it's to be an enabler for your friends to have fun pretending to be elves.

Save-or-lose abilities are, obviously, a frustration for anyone. D&D has far too many ways to get taken out of a fight with a single roll; avoiding them is entirely reasonable. The rest-- damage, AC, SR-- seem to be an optimization levels question. So... important questions:

How optimized are your players? What are their builds and stats like? AC 21 at 7th level sounds low to us, but I can see it being daunting for, say, a low-op Monk.
Did you guys start around this level, or did they work their way up from low ones? If they're used to fighting things like Goblins and Ogres, they might just be getting thrown off by the numbers being bigger than they're used to.
Do they have the items they need? High-level D&D does start to get highly dependent on WBL, especially for non-magic characters. If you don't have your stat/save/AC boosting items and your magic weapons, your numbers aren't going to be right at all. If you don't have healing wands and the like, attrition will bite you in the ***. That sort of thing.


As for suggested solutions... the first round is talking, obviously. Figure out what sort of game they want and why they feel panicked at not-actually-that-high-for-the-level numbers. You might gently check to make sure they've been doing their own math right, that sort of thing-- especially the newbies. AC 21 looks a lot scarier if, say, you forgot to add your BAB; 10 damage is a lot if you're a d8 melee who forgot they get their Con in hit points every level. You might also rely on minion-type encounters more often. It sounds like they find single large threats scarier than death-by-a-thousand-cuts type deals? It can certainly be fun to slaughter waves of goblins...

To answer this, and others wondering about the group make-up, I'm currently looking at this, keep in mind they all did a point buy of around 32 and started at level 4. They aren't super optimized, but I would say they can all do one or two things pretty well that you'd expect from their class. I do give them a decent amount of items. No one is decking out half their body slots or anything, but everyone has at least a couple, and I tend to make the ones I do give medium items more than lesser magic.

lvl 7 Paladin who is a necropolitan(Undead traits), the one who throws the biggest fit about big damage since she can't drop below 0 without dying, newbie
Lvl 6 Rogue, Lvl 2 Assassin, a vet who seems to feel like he can't do anything when something doesn't take sneak damage
Lvl 8 Wizard, does a lot of damage and feel confident in his spells, was the one who immediately shut down in the face of SR, newbie
Lvl 8 Favored Soul, very quiet but has a firm grasp on what he is doing personally, a buffbot mostly, my other vet.

[hethoran]

There's also no game without them. It's a two-way street, and I promise you that being an authoritative, vindictive **** behind the screen is far more toxic than sticking to an easy and/or low-level game.

Yeah, I am definitely not the fan of the punishment style. I don't need to be vindictive to get good play out of my players.

[Alcore]

”Lvl 6 Rogue, Lvl 2 Assassin, a vet who seems to feel like he can't do anything when something doesn't take sneak damage”

Might not fix all your problems with them (sounds like a case of "if all you have is a hammer" kind of thing) but this came to mind hearing lich and assassin. Still no sneak attack but it's something;
http://dnd-irregulars.livejournal.com/20647.html

And

http://www.realmshelps.net/magic/items/ravages.shtml



I hope i can link these. I am not too sure what the giant allows for these links.

[Grod_The_Giant]

To answer this, and others wondering about the group make-up, I'm currently looking at this, keep in mind they all did a point buy of around 32 and started at level 4. They aren't super optimized, but I would say they can all do one or two things pretty well that you'd expect from their class. I do give them a decent amount of items. No one is decking out half their body slots or anything, but everyone has at least a couple, and I tend to make the ones I do give medium items more than lesser magic.

lvl 7 Paladin who is a necropolitan(Undead traits), the one who throws the biggest fit about big damage since she can't drop below 0 without dying, newbie
Lvl 6 Rogue, Lvl 2 Assassin, a vet who seems to feel like he can't do anything when something doesn't take sneak damage
Lvl 8 Wizard, does a lot of damage and feel confident in his spells, was the one who immediately shut down in the face of SR, newbie
Lvl 8 Favored Soul, very quiet but has a firm grasp on what he is doing personally, a buffbot mostly, my other vet.
Mmm... so, if you're willing to bend the rules a little bit to address things, here's what I suggest:

You can remove the "die at 0" bit of the undead type for the Paladin. In fact, you could use later-edition rules and extend everyone's window of opportunity to -Con (4e) or "can't drop below zero but still need to make rolls to stabilize" (5e); that makes the experience somewhat more forgiving without really stopping you from feeling like you're in danger.
The Rogue kind of has a point about being ineffective without Sneak Attack; you should offer them the chance to take the Penetrating Strike ACF (Dungeonscape; it replaces Trap Sense with the ability to do half sneak attack damage to normally immune foes when you flank them). Death's Ruin is a potential alternative (Complete Champion; only works for undead, but doesn't need you to flank). And/or drop some wands or weapon crystals that enable sneak attacks.
The Wizard, being a newbie, may just not have a good handle on SR. Drop some SR: No spells, and maybe either you or one of the vets can give them some advice.

[hethoran]

Mmm... so, if you're willing to bend the rules a little bit to address things, here's what I suggest:

You can remove the "die at 0" bit of the undead type for the Paladin. In fact, you could use later-edition rules and extend everyone's window of opportunity to -Con (4e) or "can't drop below zero but still need to make rolls to stabilize" (5e); that makes the experience somewhat more forgiving without really stopping you from feeling like you're in danger.
The Rogue kind of has a point about being ineffective without Sneak Attack; you should offer them the chance to take the Penetrating Strike ACF (Dungeonscape; it replaces Trap Sense with the ability to do half sneak attack damage to normally immune foes when you flank them). Death's Ruin is a potential alternative (Complete Champion; only works for undead, but doesn't need you to flank). And/or drop some wands or weapon crystals that enable sneak attacks.
The Wizard, being a newbie, may just not have a good handle on SR. Drop some SR: No spells, and maybe either you or one of the vets can give them some advice.


Hmm... well the Paladin doesn't actually have a con due to the undead type, but I could definitely do something along those lines. Never had a problem with rule bending before.

That rogue suggestion actually sounds really great! I tend to only use the Material I can get physically in my hands, so I was not aware of such an ability, but it certainly seems perfect.

Yeah I let him know that his character would know that magic missile goes through SR so that he wasn't completely fumbling in the dark, but I now realize that maybe I should help him get into the habit of trying to do other things than directly hit the SR enemy. Like use a spell to knock free something from above to hit it or some such.

Thanks for the tips!

[stanprollyright]

Yeah I let him know that his character would know that magic missile goes through SR so that he wasn't completely fumbling in the dark, but I now realize that maybe I should help him get into the habit of trying to do other things than directly hit the SR enemy. Like use a spell to knock free something from above to hit it or some such.

There's a ton of spells that don't use SR. Summoned creatures, for instance. Or really anything from the Conjuration school. Or a Polymorphed Familiar.

There's also feats like Spell Penetration and Arcane Mastery for dealing with SR that he likely doesn't know about, so be sure to point those out to him.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Mmm, yeah, now that I think about it, Necropolitan on a melee type isn't a great bet. You're only one step up from the d10 you start with...Maybe offer Undead Toughness (Cha to HP)? That should reduce the pressure.

A wand of Assay Resistance might make the Wizard happy too.

[Telok]

Assay resistance is pretty pricy. There's a first level spell in one of the completes that's pretty much True Strike for SR.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Assay resistance is pretty pricy. There's a first level spell in one of the completes that's pretty much True Strike for SR.
True Casting, from Complete Mage. Right, thank you; I blanked on the name.