Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold Clerics and PrCs

[Endarire]

Greetings, all!

Let's assume I'm a Venerable Kobold Cloistered Cleric with the Dragonwrought feat (Races of the Dragon). Let's also assume I'm a Loredrake (Dragons of Eberron. Let's also assume that a Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold gets the +2 effective Sorcerer levels from Loredrake. (I'm not debating it here.)

Does this character get +2 effective Sorcerer spellcasting levels? He can't cast any Sorcerer spells, but can cast Cleric spells. Can he qualify for PrCs that require arcane casting? If so, can he progress his Sorcerer casting despite having no class levels?

Benefit: Spellcraft is added to the list of class skills. Once the dragon has the ability to cast spells, his effective sorcerer level is increased by two. For example, an adult gold loredrake cast spells as a 9th-level sorcerer. In exchange, the dragon’s racial Hit Dice are reduced to d10s.

(As an aside, does this mean that a Loredrake must worship Aureon or The Shadow? I could not find a definite ruling on that.)

How (if any) does this situation change if this character also starts as a White Dragonspawn (Dragonlance Campaign Setting 223)?

Thankee!

[Karl Aegis]

Loredrakes can't take the Dragonwrought feat. Sorry, dude.

[Zsaber0]

Loredrakes can't take the Dragonwrought feat. Sorry, dude.

Is this true?

[Remuko]

Is this true?

No its just his roundabout way of starting the debate that the OP said he's not going to have here.

[Zsaber0]

No its just his roundabout way of starting the debate that the OP said he's not going to have here.

Good to know, thanks!

[Gellhorn]

If that's the exact wording, it'd sound like you'd get 2 sorcerer levels to me, yeah.

[lylsyly]

I have always played it has +2 Levels of Sorcerer. Meaning your Cleric just became a Cleric # that also gets the daily spell slots and spells known of a 2nd level Sorcerer. Of course, there are people hear that would tell me I was DEAD WRONG.

And don't bother ... you are not going to change my opinion AND I am not going to debate it.

just my 2 coppers
YMMV

[Endarire]

Does this also mean such a character gets a familiar? What about getting the HP, saves, skill points, and BAB of the effective Sor levels?

[ColorBlindNinja]

Does this also mean such a character gets a familiar? What about getting the HP, saves, skill points, and BAB of the effective Sor levels?

Plenty of monsters get sorcerer casting, and I don't think they get any of those benefits.

[Nifft]

I just straight-up wouldn't allow a Loredrake Cleric due to flavor conflicts.

That's right, I would flavor-lawyer this.

[DarkSoul]

No. Ignoring the fact that taking a sovereign archetype requires you to be a true dragon, which dragonwrought kobolds are not, Loredrake specifically enhances any arcane casting ability the dragon already has; it only grants the effective sorcerer levels once the dragon already casts spells as a sorcerer.

I would rule that it's half of Practiced Spellcaster, with the added benefit of granting you additional spells known and spell slots on top of the increased caster level.

Other than that, what Nifft said. Loredrake Clerics wouldn't happen in a campaign with any semblance of continuity with the source material.

I flavor-lawyer stuff all the time, because I like my worlds to make sense and therefore the characters in them do as well.

[ColorBlindNinja]

No. Ignoring the fact that taking a sovereign archetype requires you to be a true dragon, which dragonwrought kobolds are not, Loredrake specifically enhances any arcane casting ability the dragon already has; it only grants the effective sorcerer levels once the dragon already casts spells as a sorcerer.

RAW, Dragonwrought Koldbolds have age categories. This makes them true dragons.

[DarkSoul]

RAW, Dragonwrought Koldbolds have age categories. This makes them true dragons.Yes to your first sentence, no to your second.


All true dragons gain more abilities and greater power as they age. (Other creatures that have the dragon type do not.) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm)Kobolds, regardless whether they're dragonwrought or not, age through categories (Races of the Dragon pg. 39). However they neither gain more abilities, nor greater power, as a result of aging. This puts them solidly in the "other creatures that have the dragon type" category and therefore not a true dragon.

[Nifft]

In my games, a Dragonwrought Kobold is totally a True Dragon, because it's hilarious (and cheeses off non-Kobold True Dragons).

I have no particular rules-based reasoning behind my personal decision.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Kobolds, regardless whether they're dragonwrought or not, age through categories (Races of the Dragon pg. 39). However they neither gain more abilities, nor greater power, as a result of aging. This puts them solidly in the "other creatures that have the dragon type" category and therefore not a true dragon.

"Abilities" is pretty vague. By that description, feats would count.

[DarkSoul]

"Abilities" is pretty vague. By that description, feats would count.Feats are a function of hit dice, not age. To head this off, what's the only way to gauge the abilities and overall power of a true dragon? Their age chart. Compare a true dragon's age chart to a kobold's, even a dragonwrought one. See the difference? The only difference between a wyrmling kobold and a great wyrm kobold is how close to dying of old age they are. That is absolutely untrue for every true dragon.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Feats are a function of hit dice, not age. To head this off, what's the only way to gauge the abilities and overall power of a true dragon? Their age chart. Compare a true dragon's age chart to a kobold's, even a dragonwrought one. See the difference? The only difference between a wyrmling kobold and a great wyrm kobold is how close to dying of old age they are. That is absolutely untrue for every true dragon.

Each dragon is different. I repeat that "abilities" is very vague. I don't really care to continue this discussion, though.

[DarkSoul]

Each dragon is different. I repeat that "abilities" is very vague. I don't really care to continue this discussion, though.Yes, they are all different. What isn't different is that there are listed increases to nearly every aspect of a true dragon on their age chart. Kobolds just get older, with no increase in ability or power as a result of that aging. The DM is of course free to rule otherwise, but since "RAW" got thrown around, there it is.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Yes, they are all different. What isn't different is that there are listed increases to nearly every aspect of a true dragon on their age chart. Kobolds just get older, with no increase in ability or power as a result of that aging. The DM is of course free to rule otherwise, but since "RAW" got thrown around, there it is.

Arguably, gaining mental stats boosts could count as "gaining power".

[DarkSoul]

Arguably, gaining mental stats boosts could count as "gaining power".I disagree. Compare what's gained at each kobold age category (nothing) versus each true dragon age category (dependent on the dragon of course, but hit dice, base saves, ability scores, spell resistance, spellcasting ability, etc., etc. are all listed). Again, it's up to the DM, but I won't go any further with this either and we can agree to disagree.

[JNAProductions]

For the purposes of this thread, Dragonwrought cheese works.

If you think it doesn't work, go ahead and start a new thread. But for this one, assume it works. That's what the OP asked for.

[ColorBlindNinja]

For the purposes of this thread, Dragonwrought cheese works.

If you think it doesn't work, go ahead and start a new thread. But for this one, assume it works. That's what the OP asked for.

Fair enough.

[DarkSoul]

For the purposes of this thread, Dragonwrought cheese works.

If you think it doesn't work, go ahead and start a new thread. But for this one, assume it works. That's what the OP asked for.Asked for, and answered appropriately in my first post.

[Lorddenorstrus]

I'd have to go with it enhancing existing sorcerer levels. Although the only time I've ever had it used at table was to compensate for the loss of caster levels from Swiftblade.

[ColorBlindNinja]

I'd have to go with it enhancing existing sorcerer levels. Although the only time I've ever had it used at table was to compensate for the loss of caster levels from Swiftblade.

I checked Loredrake's text, and it says it increases effective Sorcerer levels. I'd have to agree with you.

[Fouredged Sword]

I would say it requires you to have a single sorcerer level to start with.

[The_Jette]

Personally, I would say that you need to have at least one level of Sorcerer in order to benefit from the ability. I don't really think that 2 effective Sorc levels is all that ground-breaking. But, the fact that you get that, and the ability to ignore all aging penalties, not to mention access to a whole bunch of dragon only feats, all for a single feat at level one, makes it powerful enough that I wouldn't give access to the enhanced CL unless you actually took the level in Sorc. Then again, with a boost of effective casting levels, why would you go with anything else? Heck, find yourself some ACF's for Sorc, and go hog-wild.

[Endarire]

As mentioned in the original post, how do things change if this character is also a a White Dragonspawn that gets another +1 effective Sorcerer level?

"All dragonspawn gain the ability to cast spells as 1st-level sorcerers. If the base creature already possessed levels in sorcerer, then the dragonspawn's effective sorcerer level increases by +1."

[ColorBlindNinja]

As mentioned in the original post, how do things change if this character is also a a White Dragonspawn that gets another +1 effective Sorcerer level?

"All dragonspawn gain the ability to cast spells as 1st-level sorcerers. If the base creature already possessed levels in sorcerer, then the dragonspawn's effective sorcerer level increases by +1."

That should work, but if I recall dragonspawn has LA+1. I recall a template that subtracts LA, but I can't remember its name...

[javcs]

Use the Web enhancement ritual for kobolds that gives you a level of sorcerer casting that stacks with any you have.

Boom, you have sorcerer casting, so with Loredrake you have 3 effective Sorcerer Levels.

[Endarire]

The intent is to be an ahead of the curve Sorcerer. White Dragonspawn's 1LA from DLCS is OK with me since I can buy it off and it's 1 LA to get 1 Sorcerer casting level plus other good stuff like wings!