Two weapon fighting viable?

[Blackplaga]

So in a gestalt game I am playing I am going to try and get two weapon fighting in some shape "viable" compared to a 2 handed smasher. Gonna be doing a Rogue Scout Ranger with fighter levels and barbarian on the otherside (to pick up pounce give me a moment to explain).

All right so going to be taking swift ambusher to get Skirmish damage and sneak attack damage up there and using the fighter levels to get me two-weapon fighting things. and of course taking Swift Hunter as well to be able to sneak attack skirmish all the things.

So the plan for two weapon fighting and getting it to work with sneak attack things and being semi spring attack like is by using pounce and than taking additional movement abilities like heroic surge and other things for additional movement should an enemy actually live through each attack dealing an additional 13d6 or so in sneak attack skirmish charge cheese.

Now my question is, is there some mechanic that I am forgetting or something in pounce that wouldnt allow this to work?

[DeTess]

This would likely work fine. Do remember that two weapon fighting is rather feat intensive, so you might have trouble getting movement-related feats in there.

I'd try and get 2 levels of swordsage somewhere in this build. 'Assassin's stance' gives an extra 2d6 sneak attack damage, while the 'distracting ember' and 'cloak of deception' maneuvers allows full-round sneak attacks when you are adjacent to an enemy (one creates a flanker, the other makes you invisible for a round). Note that your second level of Swordsage has to be your 9th level or higher if you want to take assassin's stance. This becomes less if you take more levels of swordsage.

[Blackplaga]

oh yeah thats right thought i was forgetting something. Was planning on waiting a little bit to pick them both up at the same time that way can get as many feats as possible as well as getting that additional few d6s and the miss chance is nice in the lower levels and its something afterwards.

[Kaleph]

Arcane strike works perfectly with the 2wf style. Since you're gestalt, you may try to pack into your build some gishy features, whereas duskblade would be probably the best option.

This is somehow complicated in the backbone you are thinking about (scout/ranger), but you may want to take only 1 lvl barbarian, and replace fighter levels with duskblade.

[Pugwampy]

Its as viable as playing without feats . Not that bad . Nerfed or not , a veteran player can make 2 weapon the star of the show .

Perhaps the number crunchers are unsatisfied with that fact but its the truth .

[noce]

A viable TWF build I've seen in actual play uses a two handed weapon coupled with "kicks", that is unarmed strikes.
This way you keep all the two handed benefits (increased strength, increased power attack), while getting more attacks.

This is not the only way to do it, for example you could use armor spikes as the secondary weapon.
The unarmed strike choice is better though, because you cannot power attack with light weapons: unarmed strikes are the only weapon attack I'm aware of that counts as light for TWF penalties and gets to use power attack (and that works with a two-hander).

[Mikemical]

There's also Bloodclaw Master, which allows you to ditch the -2 attack penalty when TWF, as well as gives you 2d6 extra damage from hitting an opponent with both weapons. And it isn't really Feat heavy to get into, you only need 9 ranks in jump, TWF, and kniwing three Tiger Claw Maneuvers.

[Darrin]

So the plan for two weapon fighting and getting it to work with sneak attack things and being semi spring attack like is by using pounce and than taking additional movement abilities like heroic surge and other things for additional movement should an enemy actually live through each attack dealing an additional 13d6 or so in sneak attack skirmish charge cheese.

Now my question is, is there some mechanic that I am forgetting or something in pounce that wouldnt allow this to work?

Pounce works just fine, although if you're going to rely on Skirmish for bonus damage, you're going to need a method to move away from an adjacent opponent so you can charge back in to activate Skirmish and Pounce. Heroic Surge has a limited number of uses per day, so it's not an ideal method. Travel Devotion with a Cloistered Cleric dip would give you more uses per day, and you can load up on Nightsticks to get more uses, but it's still a finite number of uses.

Ideally, if you could work Monk 2/Drunken Master 2 into the build, you could use Stagger to charge around the battlefield all day, looping back to your original opponent if you like. Unfortunately, there's an alignment conflict with Barbarian, although a lawful Barbarian can still Pounce if he likes.

Obligatory Plug: TWF OffHandbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?279079-3-5-The-TWF-OffHandbook).

[Telonius]

Obligatory mention of the Craven feat. It's a must for improving sneak attack damage.

[stanprollyright]

I'd skip Swift Ambusher, take Scout 3/Rogue 17 on one side, Barb 1/Fighter 2/Ranger 17 on the other with Swift Hunter. Full BAB, full Skirmish, nearly full sneak attack, Ranger spells, and 8 skills/level every level. Use Ranger for the TWF feats, the Fighter dip for whatever else you want, and the Barb dip for pounce.

[Fouredged Sword]

If ToB is on the table I do suggest considering a martial based build. Go scout 3 / rogue 17 on one side and balance it with Barbarian 1 / warblade 5 / Bloodclaw Master 5 / Warblade X.

Blood in the Water is a really fun stance for someone who is wielding two keen high threat range weapons. You can have a 25% chance to get a stacking +1 to hit and damage every time you swing a weapon. Tiger Claw has some good free movement very early with sudden leap and with pounce from barbarian levels you can do good things.

[Grod_The_Giant]

You can't stack Swift Hunter and Swift Ambushed. Not only does SA not touch all those Ranger levels, it only works backwards-- it gives a Rogue Skirmish, but not vice versa. (To say nothing of the general prohibition on theurge type in gestalt).

On the other hand, you also don't need Swift Hunter-- the big benefit is full BAB+Skirmish, which you can do in gestalt by simple slapping FULL-BAB classes on the other side. So I'd probably go Rogue 17/Scout 3 on one side (possibly detouring for a Cleric dip for Travel Devotion), and stack your Barbarian, Fighter, and suchlike on the other.

TWF is perfectly nasty if you can find a reliable damage source. Stacking Sneak Attack and Skirmish will certainly give you plenty of punch, though you might have trouble getting both to work simultaneously.

[DEMON]

You can't stack Swift Hunter and Swift Ambushed. Not only does SA not touch all those Ranger levels, it only works backwards-- it gives a Rogue Skirmish, but not vice versa. (To say nothing of the general prohibition on theurge type in gestalt).

On the other hand, you also don't need Swift Hunter-- the big benefit is full BAB+Skirmish, which you can do in gestalt by simple slapping FULL-BAB classes on the other side. So I'd probably go Rogue 17/Scout 3 on one side (possibly detouring for a Cleric dip for Travel Devotion), and stack your Barbarian, Fighter, and suchlike on the other.

TWF is perfectly nasty if you can find a reliable damage source. Stacking Sneak Attack and Skirmish will certainly give you plenty of punch, though you might have trouble getting both to work simultaneously.

DM's call when it comes to gestalt (or anything, really), but Swift Hunter should be available if you keep your Scout and Ranger on the same side of your build. And I'd say it's hands down a better option than Swift Ambusher.

Anything that gives extra damage is a 2-weapon-fighter's friend and there's a boatload of things available out there, especially in gestalt.

Sneak Attack, Skirmish, Hit-and-Run Tactics, Insightful Strike, Craven, Shadow Blade... you should be able to get all of these with ease.

Scout 3 / Ranger 17 // Barbarian 1 / Fighter 2 / Swashbuckler 3 / Rogue 14

BAB: 20
Saves: too drunk to do the math, but will save is kind of terrible for sure
HD: d12, 4x d10, rest d8, I guess
Skill points: 8+INT mostly

Swift Hunter: full skirmish progression; favored enemies are susceptible to skirmish
Daring Outlaw: near full SA progression, same for Grace and Dodge bonus
Craven, Shadow Blade: never say no to even more extra damage

Barbarian will get you pounce (Lion Totem) and an extra attack (Whirling Frenzy)
Fighter will get you a feat and DEX to damage (Hit and Run tactics) and another feat or a Will save boost
Swashbuckler will get you a feat and INT to damage
Ranger will get you the 2WF feats and other stuff (a ton of ACFs to take, btw), including spellcasting (never say no to spellcasting)
Scout will get you... a lot of stuff (don't forget to trade your Rogue's trapfinding for poison use)
Rogue will get you... everything you ever wanted, except that hot readhead next door, and then some

PS: If you need more feats and are skilled at DMG dodging, cheesing it up with Sneak Fighter 3 and Feat Rogue 13 (qualifying for more SA through Daring Outlaw) is the way to go.

[Blackplaga]

Scout 3 / Ranger 17 // Barbarian 1 / Fighter 2 / Swashbuckler 3 / Rogue 14

BAB: 20
Skill points: 8+INT mostly

Swift Hunter: full skirmish progression; favored enemies are susceptible to skirmish
Daring Outlaw: near full SA progression, same for Grace and Dodge bonus
Craven, Shadow Blade: never say no to even more extra damage

Barbarian will get you pounce (Lion Totem) and an extra attack (Whirling Frenzy)
Fighter will get you a feat and DEX to damage (Hit and Run tactics) and another feat or a Will save boost
Swashbuckler will get you a feat and INT to damage
Ranger will get you the 2WF feats and other stuff (a ton of ACFs to take, btw), including spellcasting (never say no to spellcasting)
Scout will get you... a lot of stuff (don't forget to trade your Rogue's trapfinding for poison use)
Rogue will get you... everything you ever wanted, except that hot readhead next door, and then some

PS: If you need more feats and are skilled at DMG dodging, cheesing it up with Sneak Fighter 3 and Feat Rogue 13 (qualifying for more SA through Daring Outlaw) is the way to go.

Ahhhhhhhhh that Feat Rogue cheese is diiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiirty . . . but I like it sooooooo much

Also sorry all for not getting back to this quicker have been working. And yeah with a few alternate class features making sure things arent stacking on each other. Like trading the improved uncanny dodge of Rogue for Greater Invisibility. Oh also all official Wizards of the Coast material is allowed not sure if I mentioned that in the first.