Major changes regarding DnD 3.5 Magic in Pathfinder?

[Schattenbach]

To mention that right at the beginning ... As the epic setting I'm working on right now itself is a test about what can be done with D20 modern/D20 future/Pathfinder/DnD3.5 and such OGL material (while using the other DnD3.5 & D20 modern/future/etc. material as minor RAI-specific reference as far as ruling stuff and potential custom stuff is concerned), the options that have to be taken into consideration are limited to just that (though right now I#m at the point where I'm also considering to adapt some of the rulesets of BESM D20 & Mecha D20 due to the toolboxes they provide, but lets put that aside for now as its).

As such, I'm considering using the OGL Pathfinder versions of DnD 3.5 spells (for the purpose of this thread, psionic powers that can effectively - i.e. without being dependend on invested power points - replicated with spells are als On-topic) and metamagics (as well as DnD 3.5 typic epic metamagic & epic spellcasting stuff and such that's somewhat lacking in Pathfinder), Pathfinder-specific metamagic stuff and such (as well as - possibly - other Pathfinder-specific feats/rules/monsters), etc.

As I usually don't play/dm Pathfinder, I'm not all familiar with what major rule changes specific spells might've gone through at this point ... this leaves me with quite a few questions in that regard for which some insight and advice would be very helpful ...

... I'm aware that some SoS/SoL/SoD spells have been modified (like Instant death effects that got reduced in number or, like Slay Living, Destruction and Finger of Death, inflict lots of damage instead, while some battlefield control spells were weakened in one way or another - though I don't remember the exact details in regard to which of these spells got chanced in whatever way they've been changed - or that Forcecage is now much easier to destroy), as well that both Death Ward and Mind Blank lost the blanko immunity they've provided in DnD 3.5, as well as that the Polymorph spells were altered and split up (though I don't remember the details) ... are there any major changes I should take note of?

Now that I think about it ... how well does Pathfinder stuff hold up past level 30 (and up to higher levels, 50 or even higher)?

Thanks in advance.

[Florian]

Now that I think about it ... how well does Pathfinder stuff hold up past level 30 (and up to higher levels, 50 or even higher)?

As practically no-one cares about epic games, we´ll never find out.

[Schattenbach]

As practically no-one cares about epic games, we´ll never find out.

Now that I think about it, I guess it makes sense to change that question a bit ... does Pathfinder as system actually need to escalate to such high level (compared to DnD 3.5 were HDs and skill DC and whatever else sometimes are set as pointlessly high or does sufficiently high end stuff/epic monsters/deities/whatever just fine at levels well below what seems to be the norm of what's been printed in the Epic Level Handbook) to get sufficiently epic stuff done?

[Psyren]

As practically no-one cares about epic games, we´ll never find out.

Yes, especially not high epic. I mean, you might get a handful of games that get to 25 territory to wrap things up. But 30? 50? You're on your own if you need to go that high.


Now that I think about it, I guess it makes sense to change that question a bit ... does Pathfinder as system actually need to escalate to such high level (compared to DnD 3.5 were HDs and skill DC and whatever else sometimes are set as pointlessly high or does sufficiently high end stuff/epic monsters/deities/whatever just fine at levels well below what seems to be the norm of what's been printed in the Epic Level Handbook) to get sufficiently epic stuff done?

I would suggest ditching levels/XP entirely at that point and using Mythic to advance. Or letting the PCs become monsters and then throwing Mythic foes at them.

[Florian]

Now that I think about it, I guess it makes sense to change that question a bit ... does Pathfinder as system actually need to escalate to such high level (compared to DnD 3.5 were HDs and skill DC and whatever else sometimes are set as pointlessly high or does sufficiently high end stuff/epic monsters/deities/whatever just fine at levels well below what seems to be the norm of what's been printed in the Epic Level Handbook) to get sufficiently epic stuff done?

No, absolutely not. Additionally, the "Mythic" rules for PF are very different from the "Epic" rules for 3E, as they work within the regular 20 levels and not on top of it.

[AOKost]

As practically no-one cares about epic games, we´ll never find out.

I, for one, would very much like to see an Epic progression, and ways of developing spells aside from Spheres of Power. I like the way spells are put together and their mechanics and the way you can design them to your personal flavor for a true Magic Missile Mage type build, if wanted.

[Scots Dragon]

As practically no-one cares about epic games, we´ll never find out.

I now suddenly feel like Odysseus poking out the eye of a cyclops.

[Psyren]

I, for one, would very much like to see an Epic progression, and ways of developing spells aside from Spheres of Power. I like the way spells are put together and their mechanics and the way you can design them to your personal flavor for a true Magic Missile Mage type build, if wanted.

There is one, it's just barebones and requires heavy GM involvement. Which quite honestly is a feature, because the GM should be heavily involved at that point.

Beyond 20th Level (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/coreRulebook/gamemastering.html#beyond-20th-level)

[Florian]

I now suddenly feel like Odysseus poking out the eye of a cyclops.

*Shrugs*

You know, the way D&D/PF is build on ever-escalating encounters fit to CR and APL, we do lose the "sense of wonder" for the things we do in-game at times.

[Scots Dragon]

*Shrugs*

You know, the way D&D/PF is build on ever-escalating encounters fit to CR and APL, we do lose the "sense of wonder" for the things we do in-game at times.

This is why they're listed as guidelines, and you should always throw out a few encounters that are way above the party's ability to deal with by the conventional 'stab it until its hp runs out' method, naturally as a non-combat encounter because you don't want to be a total-party-killing jerkhole, or which would usually be way below the party's attention.

Also have stuff that emphasises the Fantastical. Throw in a floating castle, enchanted forest, or oddly ambulatory hut every now and then.

[Schattenbach]

Thanks for the answers thus far. As I'm busy right now and its getting late, anyway, I will likely reply sometime tomorrow.

Regarding spell-related issues ... I've took a glance at the spell lists ... if I overlooked some major change, please point it out.

# Protection from X now provides no blanko immunity against mental control (and no blanko immunity against possession?) and instead allows someone some additional saving throws.
# Death Ward and Mind Blank lose their most important immunity that usually makes them provide to instant death/worse than death stuff and provide somewhat unintersting types of
saving throw boni instead.
# Slay Living, Finger of Death and Destruction now kill through (10 HP per CL) damage (though instant death effects like Wail of the Banshee still exist)
# Implosion also ends up with inflicting (10 HP per CL) damage instead.
# Blasphemy/Dictum/Holy Word/Word of Chaos are now much weaker and allow saves for most of the nasty things they do to someone (at least they are still good at inflicting instant
death to weak stuff).
# Disjunction was weakened so that it isn't that to wreck most equipment by accident
# Wall of Force and Forcecage can now be destroyed with out too much of a hassle.
# Fabricate is now slightly less abuseable.
# Control Undead is much weaker now and with more downsides?
# Knock had some modifications, I guess (would have to check the DnD 3.5 version to compare them)
# Divine Power was nerfed down quite a bit.
# Polymorph spells are now quite a bit weaker (and split up in more versions)?
# Dominate-Type spells are now quite a bit weaker?

# Simulacrum changed to gp costs (makes sense based on the listed EXP per level chart)? (would also mean no costs free with Ignore Material Component?)
# Gate got modified somewhat (but at least it no longer costs any EXP. though that makes sense based on the listed EXP per level chart) (would also mean no costs with
Ignore Material Component?)
# Limited Wish changed to gp costs (makes sense based on the listed EXP per level chart)? (would also mean its cost free with Ignore Material Component?)
# Wish changed to gp costs (makes sense based on the listed EXP per level chart) and can no longer be used for Magic Item creation/etc. (crafting has no EXP component, either?)?
(would also mean no costs with Ignore Material Component?)
# True Creation changed to gp costs (makes sense based on the listed EXP per level chart)? (would also mean no costs with Ignore Material Component?)
# Miracle changed to gp costs (makes sense based on the listed EXP per level chart)? (would also mean no costs with Ignore Material Component?)

# Geas got somewhat less useless?
# Polar Ray got a bit more powerful?
# Fire Storm got a bit more powerful?
# Meteor Swarm got a bit more powerful?
# Interposing Hand & Co. got a bit more powerful but can more easily be destroyed in return?
# Phantasmal Killer & Weird got modified a bit?

# some battlefield control spells and such were changed/nerfed, though I would've to first look which of these were subjected to that ...

Now that I think about it, how does Intensify interact with the former instant death spells and such that are now dealing HP damage?

[Florian]

@Narsil:

You don´t have to remind me. Nonetheless, discussion culture, especially on the formalized aspects like WBL and CR has moved in a certain way that´s not reminiscent on what´s happening at a "real" table.

[Psyren]

This is why they're listed as guidelines, and you should always throw out a few encounters that are way above the party's ability to deal with by the conventional 'stab it until its hp runs out' method, naturally as a non-combat encounter because you don't want to be a total-party-killing jerkhole, or which would usually be way below the party's attention.

Also have stuff that emphasises the Fantastical. Throw in a floating castle, enchanted forest, or oddly ambulatory hut every now and then.

You can do all that without Epic though, and the convoluted bookkeeping it brings.

[Scots Dragon]

You can do all that without Epic though, and the convoluted bookkeeping it brings.

Maybe, but epic's one of those things where even if I don't use it very often, it's nice to have it so that I actually can use it. And honestly it wouldn't really be impossible to make a more simplified and straightforward level 21+ progression.

[Florian]

You can do all that without Epic though, and the convoluted bookkeeping it brings.

Do we want to go there?

Going into the really fantastical is easy and very rewarding. The actual problem is when we try to match "setting" with "spell" and it gets boring.

[stanprollyright]

# Protection from X now provides no blanko immunity against mental control (and no blanko immunity against possession?) and instead allows someone some additional saving throws.

You are still immune to all new mental control, you get another save against mental control that is already in effect.

Glitterdust now gives a save every round.
Flaming Sphere got an extra damage die.
Remove Curse takes a CL check.
Dispel Magic can only dispel one thing at a time.

[Psyren]

Do we want to go there?

Going into the really fantastical is easy and very rewarding. The actual problem is when we try to match "setting" with "spell" and it gets boring.

I think we agree. Fantastical is great; requiring the Epic ruleset to get there is unnecessary, and frequently detrimental.

[Florian]

@Schattenbach:

As a general rule, there´s no EXP cost in PF, everything is paid for with GP and that´s it. You´re right that everything either translates to direct damage or, if that´s not possible, has more saves to stay balanced. There´s next to no way to prevent costly material components, as every feat or class ability that works with component explicitly calls them out to be not affected. Also look at Wish and Miracle and what those can´t do compared to 3E. So, basically you should know now why a lot of old "stand by" spells don´t come up in PF optimization discussions.

[AOKost]

There is one, it's just barebones and requires heavy GM involvement. Which quite honestly is a feature, because the GM should be heavily involved at that point.

Beyond 20th Level (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/coreRulebook/gamemastering.html#beyond-20th-level)

Thanks for the link! I don't remember reading that in the Core Rulebook, or any of the other books for that matter... I'll have to keep that in mind for later games! :D

I usually run or play in games that uses the Custom Characters rule-set, expanded into Epic progression. It actually makes 'Epic' levels on the same keel as throughout the game leading up to Epic. It is true that Custom Characters can be broken, but then again, every system can be if given enough motivation to do so.

[Psyren]

Thanks for the link! I don't remember reading that in the Core Rulebook, or any of the other books for that matter... I'll have to keep that in mind for later games! :D

Yeah that came from the Core Rulebook - CRB pg 406.



I usually run or play in games that uses the Custom Characters rule-set, expanded into Epic progression. It actually makes 'Epic' levels on the same keel as throughout the game leading up to Epic. It is true that Custom Characters can be broken, but then again, every system can be if given enough motivation to do so.

The what? Where is this from?