How do you handle stealth & light sources?

[Tetrasodium]

i have a bunch of players in a game where everyone but the cleric and... the rogue has darkvision.
Granted, the cleric's lack of darkvision makes no particular difference worth really considering, but the rogue will need a light source while scouting around & even if he has something that only emits dim light, it's going to be pretty obvious to any darkvision equipped locals being snuck up on.

perception checks at disadvantage in dim light is normal, but should I give disadvantage for trying to stealth up on darkvision having baddies with a candle or something?

How would you handle this situation?

[Hrugner]

I don't think being in darkness without being able to see is supposed to give disadvantage to hiding. Attacking someone else holding a light source is probably the best situation for the rogue really.

[Thrudd]

i have a bunch of players in a game where everyone but the cleric and... the rogue has darkvision.
Granted, the cleric's lack of darkvision makes no particular difference worth really considering, but the rogue will need a light source while scouting around & even if he has something that only emits dim light, it's going to be pretty obvious to any darkvision equipped locals being snuck up on.

perception checks at disadvantage in dim light is normal, but should I give disadvantage for trying to stealth up on darkvision having baddies with a candle or something?

How would you handle this situation?

I'd say it's impossible to stealth through a dark area while you are carrying a light. How could you possibly avoid notice? If they are in a pitch black place, that does make it rough on humans, but that happens sometimes. This is what a hooded lantern is good for, too. Cover it up while sneaking, open it up when you need to see something.

[Tetrasodium]

I don't think being in darkness without being able to see is supposed to give disadvantage to hiding. Attacking someone else holding a light source is probably the best situation for the rogue really.

The problem is not about what to do when trying to hide in darkness without darkvision... It's more of a situation like:

- Group crashes a goblin lair
- Having darkvision out to 60 feet, goblins aren't particularly concerned about having lights around their lair.
- Rogue with no darkvision tries to use stealth to scout, but with no darkvision he would need a light
- Goblins see a puddle of light even if rogue is being sneaky.

[Tanarii]

Yup., that rogue has a problem. He's not going to be scouting under those circumstances. Or at least, not very effectively. At best, you're staying in the dim light around the periphery of the party light source under those circumstances, and hoping your enemy focuses on the light and doesn't see you. Or being a rear guard using the same tactic.

Or you can carry a candle and sprint back to the party like crazy once the first goblin arrow pincushions you out of the darkness. Technically, that counts as scouting.
"Found 'em!" *points to arrow sticking out of check proudly*

[Sigreid]

Well, even creatures with dark vision are going to be more comfortable in dim light, since they function at disadvantaged perception in total darkness. Most of the time they will have some kind of a light source going to provide that. That's my logic anyway.

[ThurlRavenscrof]

This might help. The whole idea of dark vision and torches is kinda strange irl anyway

torches outdoors
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiuHr5YVJBI

torches indoors
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQZqbGME5HY

[imanidiot]

I don't see any reason that the rogue would need a light source to scout ahead. Not having darkvision doesnt mean that he's completely blind. He's likely going to hear the enemies before he sees them even with darkvision. Just dont give any information the PC couldn't get, the amounts of goblins would be "a few", "some", or "a lot".

The PC could also use a continual flame or gem of brightness and put it in a bag to block the light and only open it a tiny bit up close to avoid shining the light toward potential enemies.

[Sigreid]

This might help. The whole idea of dark vision and torches is kinda strange irl anyway

torches outdoors
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiuHr5YVJBI

torches indoors
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQZqbGME5HY

That is essentially why until the electric light people didn't do much after dark.

[djreynolds]

Question, do creatures using darkvision in the dark have to take some time to readjust their vision when they come into a lit place, and vice versa, when going from a lit place to a dark place.

[Contrast]

Not having darkvision doesnt mean that he's completely blind.

For reference the rules tell you to treat him as effectively blinded when trying to see something obscured by darkness he cannot see through - which for characters without darkvision is all darkness. Of course as you say, the blinded condition doesn't render you completely incapable of detecting things - however he's probably going to get disadvantage on his stealth check because he's stumbling over things he can't see and disadvantage on his perception check because he's mostly relying on other senses, at which point as a party you're probably better off just sending someone with a decent dex and darkvision instead.

I've always been a fan of replacing almost all darkvision with low light vision and/or significantly reducing the range of actual proper darkvision. Still provides an edge but levels the playing field significantly while also making the darkvision spell something much more worthwhile.

[imanidiot]

I don't have darkvision and I can move around in the dark pretty quietly. I don't think that roll should have disadvantage but i could see perception being at disadvantage depending on what it was being used for.

[Vorok]

Not having darkvision doesnt mean that he's completely blind.

From the PHB (183; 290):

"A heavily obscured area—such as darkness, opaque fog, or dense foliage—blocks vision entirely. A creature in a heavily obscured area effectively suffers from the blinded condition (see appendix A)."

"Darkness creates a heavily obscured area. Characters face darkness outdoors at night (even most moonlit nights), within the confines of an unlit dungeon or a subterranean vault, or in an area of magical darkness."

"Blinded
• A blinded creature can’t see and automatically fails any ability check that requires sight.
• Attack rolls against the creature have advantage, and the creature’s attack rolls have disadvantage."

[Contrast]

I don't have darkvision and I can move around in the dark pretty quietly. I don't think that roll should have disadvantage but i could see perception being at disadvantage depending on what it was being used for.

Typically in D&D you'll be somewhere you're unfamiliar with and will likely have uneven footing. Imagine closing your eyes and walk around at a brisk pace (30ft/6 seconds) and see how long it takes you to trip over, stumble or walk into something. If you actually wanted to be 'stealthy' at best, your movement speed would be reduced to a crawl as you'd have to feel out every step, so maybe no disadvantage if you reduce your speed to 5ft a round or something? Even then you're just not making noise - you won't be able to see terrain effectively to keep yourself hidden from someone with darkvision who is just standing there watching you crawl/grope your way down the corridor towards them instead of ducking into a doorway or alcove when you saw them start to turn around. Now imagine how much easier it would be to avoid bumping into that wall or stepping on that branch if you had your eyes open, how you could move easily and normally while still retaining a degree of stealth.

Thats the difference between having darkvision and not having darkvision. If I was choosing who to send to scout I would send the man who has never experienced a days combat in his life over the blind soldier.

To put that in context you get disadvantage to perception checks merely for light fog or trying to see something more than 6m away while holding a burning torch. Seems to me like trying to do most things in pitch blackness is probably of sufficient hinderance to grant disadvantage. What 5E really needs is a light level somewhere between 'sunset' and 'bottom of a mine shaft' of course :smalltongue:

[Tetrasodium]

What 5E really needs is a light level somewhere between 'sunset' and 'bottom of a mine shaft' of course :smalltongue:

I like to give/let players get a "goodlight" from one of the thorn of breland books & tell them it sheds dim light for 10-15 feet since it keeps the lack/presence of darkvision & ability to cast light type spells & cantrips a relevant distinction. The fact that it's not a particularly "good" light is amusing :D. I usually describe it as navigating in the dark by zippo or a birthday candle & players get it easily

[Tanarii]

I don't see any reason that the rogue would need a light source to scout ahead. Not having darkvision doesnt mean that he's completely blind. He's likely going to hear the enemies before he sees them even with darkvision. Just dont give any information the PC couldn't get, the amounts of goblins would be "a few", "some", or "a lot".Others have already pointed out that not having darkvision does mean you're completely blind. That doesn't mean he has any problem moving around though ... 5e in blindness doesn't impair movement unless the DM adds it themselves.

The problem with not using a light source when you don't have darkvision and your opponents do is the same with or without a lightsource: The enemy can see you and you cannot see them. Certainly you can be listening as you scout ahead. But you're going to be in trouble one way or the other when you go around a corner and bump into the enemy, and you don't even know it.

Of course, if your DM doesn't add any kind of navigating or movement impairment to being blinded, then yeah, you're still better off not using light. Because at least you won't give yourself away instantly.

Edit: Also I agree with this. Generally darkvision races are still going to use at least some light sources in their lair.

Well, even creatures with dark vision are going to be more comfortable in dim light, since they function at disadvantaged perception in total darkness. Most of the time they will have some kind of a light source going to provide that. That's my logic anyway.

[djreynolds]

So lets say I'm an wood elf and you are a bard with a torch looking at a lock on the door.

Now for the sake of this 60ft away from this bard and he hasn't spotted me or heard me.

Now a torch gives off 20ft of bright light, and an additional 20ft of dim light for a total of 40ft and then darkness and I'm still 20ft away

Now from me up and to the dim light source, is 20ft darkness, but since I have dark vision it is considered dim light.

Now the next 20ft is the beginning of dim light from the torch is this area treated by me as "bright light"?
And if so is the next 20ft of torch light which is bright light.... brighter?

And if I was a drow instead and I was aiming at this bard with a long bow, because he is in bright light would I be at disadvantage or because I'm still in darkness its okay?

And is there some time limit for players with darkvision needing to adjust to differing sources/areas of light?
Like moving from total darkness to someone with a torch?

[JackPhoenix]

So lets say I'm an wood elf and you are a bard with a torch looking at a lock on the door.

Now for the sake of this 60ft away from this bard and he hasn't spotted me or heard me.

Now a torch gives off 20ft of bright light, and an additional 20ft of dim light for a total of 40ft and then darkness and I'm still 20ft away

Now from me up and to the dim light source, is 20ft darkness, but since I have dark vision it is considered dim light.

Now the next 20ft is the beginning of dim light from the torch is this area treated by me as "bright light"?
And if so is the next 20ft of torch light which is bright light.... brighter?

Correct by RAW


And if I was a drow instead and I was aiming at this bard with a long bow, because he is in bright light would I be at disadvantage or because I'm still in darkness its okay?

You would be okay, but for a different reason: drow only have disadvantage in direct sunlight, other sources of bright light doesn't matter.


And is there some time limit for players with darkvision needing to adjust to differing sources/areas of light?
Like moving from total darkness to someone with a torch?

Not by RAW

[Dmdork]

• A blinded creature can’t see and automatically fails any ability check that requires sight.
. What ability check requires sight? Perception? One could argue that sight isn't required...

[Findulidas]

...drow only have disadvantage in direct sunlight, other sources of bright light doesn't matter.


That drows are blinded by light seems like such a common misconception about them (among newer players that is) that its not even funny. The fact that it keeps people from picking them might be a good reason as to why I shouldnt talk so much about it though.

[Tetrasodium]

. What ability check requires sight? Perception? One could argue that sight isn't required...

Close your eyes and try to chop vegetables, sneak through a forest, climb over rubble, climb a cliff, make your bed, cook steaks on a grill, light that grill, identify what species that animal over there is, so on & so forth. Pretty much anything that involves interacting with objects creatures or places needs sight to some degree. If you've ever done things like walk into a wall groping your way towards the bathroom in a semifamiliar building during a blackout*, you should have no trouble understanding why you need to see when trying to sneak through an unfamiliar structure

*hurricane sent a tree through the roof into generator at work & batteries in the battery room were drained... emergency lights only last so long

[Beelzebubba]

. What ability check requires sight? Perception? One could argue that sight isn't required...

Reading




:smallwink:

[Dmdork]

Close your eyes and try to chop vegetables, sneak through a forest, climb over rubble, climb a cliff, make your bed, cook steaks on a grill, light that grill, identify what species that animal over there is, so on & so forth. Pretty much anything that involves interacting with objects creatures or places needs sight to some degree. If you've ever done things like walk into a wall groping your way towards the bathroom in a semifamiliar building during a blackout*, you should have no trouble understanding why you need to see when trying to sneak through an unfamiliar......
Ok I get it, but to automatically fail? What if I blindly stumble into a room with noisy goblins, I automatically fail my perception?

[Tetrasodium]

Ok I get it, but to automatically fail? What if I blindly stumble into a room with noisy goblins, I automatically fail my perception?
noisy indicates sound & the LSD needed to see sounds is rarely found in treasure ;D

[Dmdork]

So what you're saying is, it's DMs call on whether a certain check relies on sight or not....

[Basement Cat]

If your party has an 8th level transmuter he could trigger Darkvision on his transmuter stone and loan it to the rogue for scouting purposes.

Or you could tap the services of a high level druid, have the rogue suicide or be killed by the party members, then reincarnated as some kind of being with Darkvision. Does that seem over the top? I've roleplayed with people who would consider that perfectly logical.

Feel free to roll your eyes. I certainly did at some of the ideas they came up with. :smalltongue:

[Sir cryosin]

i have a bunch of players in a game where everyone but the cleric and... the rogue has darkvision.
Granted, the cleric's lack of darkvision makes no particular difference worth really considering, but the rogue will need a light source while scouting around & even if he has something that only emits dim light, it's going to be pretty obvious to any darkvision equipped locals being snuck up on.

perception checks at disadvantage in dim light is normal, but should I give disadvantage for trying to stealth up on darkvision having baddies with a candle or something?

How would you handle this situation?

Is there a druid, ranger, Sorcerer, wizard if so one of them can learn the spell dark Vision then they could just cast it on the rogue. Or the rogue can find or have someone craft him goggles of night vision.

[Biggstick]

If your party has an 8th level transmuter he could trigger Darkvision on his transmuter stone and loan it to the rogue for scouting purposes.

Or you could tap the services of a high level druid, have the rogue suicide or be killed by the party members, then reincarnated as some kind of being with Darkvision. Does that seem over the top? I've roleplayed with people who would consider that perfectly logical.

Feel free to roll your eyes. I certainly did at some of the ideas they came up with. :smalltongue:

I mean, how did your Players know about the spell in character? Bringing someone back to life is something I'd expect a Cleric or Druid to be able to do, and something I'd expect to know in character, but knowing you could come back as another race? That seems a bit meta.

[Spiritchaser]

Stealth is a big deal in my campaign, because the players have made it so. Not surprisingly, they have all chosen races with darkvision, or have devil's sight.

For all the bug infested dungeon crawls vs stealthy things that lurk (and there have been more than a few) the fact that they have darkvision has allowed them to survive, even succeed against encounters that a single torch would have turned into horrorshows.

Given how the rules work, I would not advocate a stealthy rogue scout without darkvision. Going forward, I'm going to make it clear that characters without dark vision are likely to find something magically helpful early on, just to open up other races as viable.

[Contrast]

I mean, how did your Players know about the spell in character? Bringing someone back to life is something I'd expect a Cleric or Druid to be able to do, and something I'd expect to know in character, but knowing you could come back as another race? That seems a bit meta.

They asked the druid who presumably knows what their spells do?

It seems like such magic would likely be legendary within the setting in its own right regardless (i.e. tales of a hubristic king trying to bring back his son and him coming back as a goblin).

This is wildly off topic however :smalltongue:

[Basement Cat]

I mean, how did your Players know about the spell in character? Bringing someone back to life is something I'd expect a Cleric or Druid to be able to do, and something I'd expect to know in character, but knowing you could come back as another race? That seems a bit meta.

That wasn't a specific case. I said I've played with people who would have thought up such an idea.

As for how they'd know, well there's Bardic stories characters might have heard in Taverns or even growing up. Don't forget the possibility of History, Arcane, and/or Religion checks available to players who want their characters to possess such knowledge.

P.C.'s: Meta-Gaming since 1975. :smallbiggrin:

[Floopay]

Most places have light sources already. So the rogue just has to be capable of handling low light situations about 90% of the time. You know, most baddies carry torches, or have sconces on the wall in their dungeons and stuff.

If he's outside, there's generally moonlight and starlight. Additionally, if the cleric can memorize a spell to give him dark/infravision, he should be good to go in those rare scenarios where there isn't light around.

Thanks for reading,
Floopay

[imanidiot]

From the PHB (183; 290):

"A heavily obscured area—such as darkness, opaque fog, or dense foliage—blocks vision entirely. A creature in a heavily obscured area effectively suffers from the blinded condition (see appendix A)."

"Darkness creates a heavily obscured area. Characters face darkness outdoors at night (even most moonlit nights), within the confines of an unlit dungeon or a subterranean vault, or in an area of magical darkness."

"Blinded
• A blinded creature can’t see and automatically fails any ability check that requires sight.
• Attack rolls against the creature have advantage, and the creature’s attack rolls have disadvantage."

So RAW if I'm 120ft away from you at night with a lit torch and you have 60ft darkvision you can't see me. It is an obviously incorrect rule that requires a DM to overrule it.

[90sMusic]

You are completely blind in total darkness without darkvision. That is kind of the whole point. If there are no light sources inside a cave or something similar, you simply won't be able to see. Your human eyes will never adjust to complete darkness because there has to be at least some degree of perceptible light.

This is an advantage of darkvision and races that have it. If you're going to give humans and others the ability to see in total darkness, just to a shorter distance or whatever other arbitrary thing you create, it basically makes things like darkvision pointless.

A human rogue will just have to deal with the fact he can't see in total darkness and won't be able to sneak around under those conditions. He will have to have a light source. Furthermore, the way light sources work, not only would he be spotted waaaaay off and stickout like a very obvious sore thumb, but he wouldn't even be able to see anything until his light actually overlapped on top of the creature or object he's looking for meaning he'd have to get incredibly close and shine light directly on something to see it.

So yeah... Using a human rogue as a scout in a place of total darkness will not work without him getting spotted.

You could always give him a belt of dwarvenkind or some other magical item that gives dark vision. Otherwise he is going to be useless in that particular role.

[Contrast]

So RAW if I'm 120ft away from you at night with a lit torch and you have 60ft darkvision you can't see me. It is an obviously incorrect rule that requires a DM to overrule it.

FYI the specific wording of the text you're quoting has been erratad.


A creature in a heavily obscured area effectively suffers from the blinded condition (see appendix A).

Was changed to:


A heavily obscured area doesn’t blind you, but you are effectively blinded when you try to see something obscured by it.

This resolves the problem where standing behind a wall technically rendered you blind to things on your side of the wall. So then the question becomes, does an area of darkness obscure something behind it when that thing is itself well lit. RAW a heavily obscured area 'blocks vision entirely' so yes. I imagine most DMs will rule differently.

[imanidiot]

You are completely blind in total darkness without darkvision. That is kind of the whole point. If there are no light sources inside a cave or something similar, you simply won't be able to see. Your human eyes will never adjust to complete darkness because there has to be at least some degree of perceptible light.

This is an advantage of darkvision and races that have it. If you're going to give humans and others the ability to see in total darkness, just to a shorter distance or whatever other arbitrary thing you create, it basically makes things like darkvision pointless.

A human rogue will just have to deal with the fact he can't see in total darkness and won't be able to sneak around under those conditions. He will have to have a light source. Furthermore, the way light sources work, not only would he be spotted waaaaay off and stickout like a very obvious sore thumb, but he wouldn't even be able to see anything until his light actually overlapped on top of the creature or object he's looking for meaning he'd have to get incredibly close and shine light directly on something to see it.

So yeah... Using a human rogue as a scout in a place of total darkness will not work without him getting spotted.

You could always give him a belt of dwarvenkind or some other magical item that gives dark vision. Otherwise he is going to be useless in that particular role.

The problem is that there is no level of light between "dim light" and "total darkness". The rules in general are far too sparse for a complex topic with many variables. DM judgement on a case by case basis is the only acceptable way to resolve low light situations.