No Magic Marts (or their equivalent)

[ad_hoc]

5e is built to not have Magic Marts as the default.

In my group we don't have them or their equivalents such as specifying the items you want and having them show up in the campaign (note that I think this is much better than being vague about what you want, expecting it to show up, and being upset if it doesn't).

We use the random treasure tables. People get excited over getting magic items. I wouldn't say this is because there are a dearth of them, treasure hoards happen fairly often. It's just, there is no guarantee that there will be items.

This is an entirely different mindset than something like 3.x. Don't think of it as taking away things from characters. 5e is built so the default can be no magic items.

The magic items that the characters do get shape them in ways that they didn't plan for in character creation. I think this is a huge benefit.

For example, say a magic polearm was rolled. Magic weapons are great so a character uses it. After a couple levels they take Polearm Master to be even better with their magic polearm. Now, instead of just a generic and unforgettable +1 weapon, the polearm has encouraged and enabled this character to become a famed master of polearms. Instead of a situation where many characters take polearm master and purchase it from the magic mart (or expect to find one), 1 character in the group took the feat and is memorable because of it.

Maybe there are poor rolls and the characters don't get much treasure in that campaign. Then they will have the challenge of needing to make do. This can make encounters more memorable or exciting. For example, if a thief rogue hasn't gotten a finesse magic weapon yet and fights a Flesh Golem maybe they spend their turn putting down oil and lighting it.

On the other hand, maybe weird items show up. The PCs then have the opportunity to use what they have in clever ways to best effect. Especially if weird items show up instead of weapons and armour.

Having random treasure means that treasure feels special. Slot machines are exciting because we don't know the outcome. It is also a tool to have adventures play out in new and exciting ways.

If you haven't played without Magic Marts (or their equivalent) I suggest you give it a try. It can make for a fun and rich campaign.

[Specter]

On the last two campaigns I ran, there were no marts. Magic items either belonged to heroes (those who explored dungeons and emerged victorious), to the king (because un-heroed treasure belonged to the crown by right), or to those who made them (men of magic dedicated to item creation throughout their lives; e.g. creating a +1 weapon would require months, or years, definitely not an absolute science).

These last guys were of noble origin, or people in service of the realm. Making or selling magic items without king or high council consent was high treason.

This fit the D&D mythos quite well; the items you found in a cave were from dead important adventurers, and the ones given to you were because of a very important favor you did to the royalty (like driving the orcs away from the town for good).

[Naanomi]

My current setting is sort of a middle ground... shops specializing in material components for spells and the like exist, and probably sell a few potions or low level scrolls as well... maybe they have something special or unique that happens to be in the store... but no 'custom order' nonsense

[Waterdeep Merch]

I tend to allow some limited purchasing of magic items. Players like getting new toys, and they have a special feeling of ownership when they buy it with their own money.

In my current game, however, any magic item not found out on a quest must be crafted using XP. It's really made them think about when it makes more sense to level up and when they'd prefer to get a new weapon/armor/item.

[Pex]

No magic item exists without the DM's permission. Magic marts are not necessary, but not giving PCs everything they want is not the same thing as never giving them what they want. It's nice for a found magic item to inspire future character development, but there's also nothing wrong with a player having already developed his character to level 20 in his head. If he wants to use a greatsword he will use a greatsword, and it's not the DM's place to encourage him to use something else by never finding a magical greatsword but look at all these magical maces, long swords, tridents, quarterstaves, and daggers to be found. Let him find a magical greatsword already.

[mephnick]

I go inbetween. I do random loot (though my lists are highly customized to suit my setting/preferred power level), but I also offer master smiths that will upgrade weapons for a very high cost.

Therefore, if you use a greatsword, you might find a better one. If you don't want to wait and risk never finding one you can put a very significant part of your overall wealth into having one forged for you. It gets you what you want, but you can probably kiss your personal tower goodbye.

[Unoriginal]

Personally I think magic items should be included in a scenario for narrative reasons.

Magic items serve to show that the NPC who has/had it is rich/powerful, to give a different power to the NPC ("turns out the so-called druid is actually a rogue with a magic wand"), to be used as bait ("apparently there is a flaming sword in those crypts"), or the like.

Minor magic items like low-level scrolls or potions can be found in shops in some places, and even rarer items can be sold by powerful merchants or people who'd rather have a mountain of coins. But I'm not a fan of having them as random loot.

What's the more memorable: a fight against a troll who has flying boots, or a fight against a troll and then you randomly get flying boots while looting his lair?

[Willie the Duck]

This is an entirely different mindset than something like 3.x. Don't think of it as taking away things from characters. 5e is built so the default can be no magic items.

I am going to step in and say, that this is only the mindset of some players who played 3.x. Yes, the books indicated that a city of size X would have available any magic item of up to gp value Y. And yes, that implication lead to a whole lot of gnashing of teeth and forum-discussed 'builds' which were dependent upon a specific expenditure of WBL, etc. However, in my mind, that was simply the writers of 3e being too permissive and not putting in a sidebar about various ways to play the game. My group saw very early on (probably right about 2001 when we saw that wands of Cure Light Wounds cost about 2.7 gp per hp healed, and thus freed up all the cleric's spell slots for non-healing) that pure unlimited magic marts would break the game for us.

As to how we play it in 5e, we've decided that acquiring magic items, whether by purchase, theft, or as treasure, is supposed to be an adventure. Thus the purchase route should require as much effort and decision-making as the other two. Magic items are rare enough that they are bought and sold through high-level diplomacy amongst 'very important people.' If the PCs want to take the time to learn how to move in those circles, they can, just like they can build a keep and try to become a noble, or research lost arts and secrets. But it will be done through effort and decisions and social adventuring. Kinda like we did it in BECMI and 2e and so forth.

[Naanomi]

Yeah the 3.5 WBL expectations were rough on me. I often played characters who would waste money on booze or donating it to churches or the like; yet every copper not scrounged for personal equipment put me 'behind' the 'expectations' of the game

[DivisibleByZero]

I do it the same way as the OP, but I roll the treasure during set-up, prior to game, so if the enemy has a magic item the enemy uses it against the PCs. The PCs reward for defeating an enemy with magic items is that they get to keep the loot (if it isn't expended, like a scroll/wand/potion/etc).

[Âmesang]

I'm not against magic marts, per se, but for me it at least depends on location; I mean, I would be surprised if a metropolis like Greyhawk, Waterdeep, or Sharn didn't have some sort of magic emporium with a randomly generated assortment of items that the owner's collected over the years; he's got connections for custom-made gear… but it would still take some time for the order to come through (and wouldn't necessarily get there safely, either).

Granted I'm also a big fan of planar exploration so I imagine the chances of a magic mart would increase once you start exploring places like Sigil, Union, or the City of Brass; I'm not saying characters should expect a mountain of gear… just that they should expect something; otherwise I feel like I'm playing d20 Modern and the only weapons available are muskets because gun manufacturers went out of business two centuries ago…

EDIT: I suppose to clarify I see it as being a reward for exploration; along with claiming loot from ancient dungeons and terrible monsters, I feel a party should be rewarded in some way once they've taken the opportunity to learn spells like teleport and plane shift to travel to more exotic locales like Sigil.

[Naanomi]

I do it the same way as the OP, but I roll the treasure during set-up, prior to game, so if the enemy has a magic item the enemy uses it against the PCs. The PCs reward for defeating an enemy with magic items is that they get to keep the loot (if it isn't expended, like a scroll/wand/potion/etc).
I mostly do that (when I roll loot that is), but some monster types may not be able to use it (and thus have it stashed somewhere)... and I can envision even some intelligent monsters keeping 'the good stuff' locked away so their peers don't steal it, especially if the party sneaks up on them or bursts in to the lair without time to react.

But yes overall I agree that monsters using their loot (including in some cases using up their loot) makes for better encounters... nothing more fun than a party desperately casting hold monster on the Oni because he keeps casting spells from scrolls and they want the scrolls

[erok0809]

I actually do allow players to purchase magic items, the reason being that a lot if my players like to plan their characters with a certain image in mind. Random treasure can throw a huge wrench into that, if no one gets items they like for their characters. Sure, I can curate the treasure to the party as the DM, but that always seemed too coincidental as a player when I got "random" loot that fit my character perfectly. I'd prefer if the players felt they got to build their characters the way they'd like to. How I do it though, is that first you have to get to one of the biggest cities in town, and then you have to know a guy who knows a guy. The underground can generally get you what you want except for truly legendary things, but it's going to take a ton of time and money. On top of that, if you start looking for some really rare stuff, you can bet someone is going to take notice, which can then introduce another plot point/hook for the group, as now they have to deal with a mob boss in Waterdeep or something to that effect. It ends up working pretty well in my experience.

[DivisibleByZero]

I actually do allow players to purchase magic items, the reason being that a lot if my players like to plan their characters with a certain image in mind. Random treasure can throw a huge wrench into that, if no one gets items they like for their characters.

MMOs have given this mindset to the players, to the detriment of the game.
Before MMOs were a thing, back in the days of AD&D2e, people didn't make "builds," they made characters, because you never knew what treasure might fall your way.
Once certain treasure becomes a part of the character you're building before you actually have that treasure, you aren't building a character, you're building a stat block.

[Naanomi]

MMOs have given this mindset to the players, to the detriment of the game.
Before MMOs were a thing, back in the days of AD&D2e, people didn't make "builds," they made characters, because you never knew what treasure might fall your way
To a degree, though the idea of becoming specialized in long swords because they were so much more common on the loot table has existed a long time

[Unoriginal]

Honestly I don't get the "build a character with an image in mind, so need to buy X magic item" thing.

If you absolutely want a specific magic item, you could probably ask your DM to go on an adventure to find one.

[DivisibleByZero]

To a degree, though the idea of becoming specialized in long swords because they were so much more common on the loot table has existed a long time

Removed redundant portion.
They were more common on the loot table because they were more common as a means of warfare. They are the most common weapons in a fantasy setting, full stop. So it stands to reason that they are also the most common on the loot table.
No one would think twice about someone specializing in the most common weapon. But if you choose a weapon that's more rare, maybe you'll find a magic one and maybe not. Dem's da breaks. Good luck.

[Willie the Duck]

MMOs have given this mindset to the players, to the detriment of the game.

Okay, although I probably agree, let's go back to square one. First off, GP prices were listed for magic items at least as far back as 1st edition AD&D, which inspired Final Fantasy (which also had a mix of found and bought treasure items), which certainly had a huge impact on fantasy RPG computer/video games, which later lead to MMOs. So I'm pretty sure that if MMOs get the blame for this, there's at least some D&D DNA back there in the mix to take the blame. Second, can you expand on how (/whether) this is a detriment to the game, rather than simply a change.


Before MMOs were a thing, back in the days of AD&D2e, people didn't make "builds," they made characters, because you never knew what treasure might fall your way.
Once certain treasure becomes a part of the character you're building before you actually have that treasure, you aren't building a character, you're building a stat block.

People made plenty of builds in 2e. Including magic weapon dependent builds. Of course it didn't hurt that longswords and longbows were some of the best weapons overall, beyond the fact that they were the magic weapons which dropped the most frequently.

Heck, people made builds in 1e as well. If the campaign wasn't going to hit name level, then play an elven fighter-mage (or fighter-mage-thief). They have all the advantages, can cast in armor, and all the serious penalties come after you've stopped playing.

Power gaming has always existed. There have always been people who played sets of stats more than they were playing characters, and there were those who didn't care about stats and just wanted to play a concept they wanted to play. This has never not been the case; although admittedly some editions of the games have been better than others about encouraging one vs. the other (both 5e and TSR-era A/D&D are kinder to the person who doesn't want to learn the rulebooks like the back of their hand and just want to play a character concept than 3e and 4e).

[gameogre]

MMOs have given this mindset to the players, to the detriment of the game.
Before MMOs were a thing, back in the days of AD&D2e, people didn't make "builds," they made characters, because you never knew what treasure might fall your way.
Once certain treasure becomes a part of the character you're building before you actually have that treasure, you aren't building a character, you're building a stat block.

Bah a bunch of hogwash.

Back in AD&D there were plenty of magic item shops and plenty of (builds). Every warrior rocked a 18 strength and a 16+ Dex so they could roll with two weapons and were specialized in dual wielding as well as longswords.

You couldn't throw a D20 without hitting about 5 different character builds, even if nobody called them that.

Feats might not have been in the game but Magic items took their place.

Really that was the difference.

Early on it was all about what magic items you had and your BUILD was mostly that. Ogre gauntlets girdle of giant strength and Hammer of thunderbolt build eh? Nice!

After 3.5 feats became the build and magic items while still important took a back seat.

It's still like that in default 5E.

I have magic item shops in most major cities and even smaller more limited shops in towns. As long as you use them right then I have no issues with them at all. It's just another tool in the DM's belt.

[JackPhoenix]

Running Eberron, I have magic shops. Common items are available in any decent-sized town, and uncommon items can be bought in larger cities. If you want to get rare item, you have to commision it with house Cannith or independent artificers, and bring a lot of money. For very rare items, good luck buying it if you aren't a noble or other influential individual, or otherwise in favor with Cannith. Legendary items generally can't be bought, but they can be crafted by PCs themselves.

All items can be gained through adventuring, either through loot or as rewards, but it is less reliable and needs some work. You'd have to do the Church of the Silver Flame a lot of favor to be gifted one of about five known Holy Avengers on Khorvaire... but you may also risk your life searching for the one that was lost while his bearer was (propably) killed in Demon Wastes (on that note, one of those known Holy Avengers is a greatsword, one is halberd, 2 are longswords, one is scimitar. If you want something else, you're out of luck. Unless you want to go for one of the unknown ones... there should propably be at least one axe from Ghaashk'kala, etc.). I've also changed rarity of some items, to better fit my vision of the world, and added a ton of common and uncommon items with little to no practical uses to adventurers, like self-cleaning and repairing clothes, barrels that keep the ale cold, etc. (and some rarer items too... elemental bound weapons and armor, dragonmark focus items, etc.)

[DivisibleByZero]

Bah a bunch of hogwash.

Back in AD&D there were plenty of magic item shops and plenty of (builds). Every warrior rocked a 18 strength and a 16+ Dex so they could roll with two weapons and were specialized in dual wielding as well as longswords.

You couldn't throw a D20 without hitting about 5 different character builds, even if nobody called them that.

Feats might not have been in the game but Magic items took their place.

Really that was the difference.

Early on it was all about what magic items you had and your BUILD was mostly that. Ogre gauntlets girdle of giant strength and Hammer of thunderbolt build eh? Nice!

After 3.5 feats became the build and magic items while still important took a back seat.

It's still like that in default 5E.

I have magic item shops in most major cities and even smaller more limited shops in towns. As long as you use them right then I have no issues with them at all. It's just another tool in the DM's belt.

Nope. What you just said, all of that is the Hogwash.
In older editions, you didn't build your character around finding a particular piece of loot. You just played your character and rolled with whatever you found.
There's a huge, gaping difference. It's the same difference that the OP is referencing.

[erok0809]

Nope. What you just said, all of that is the Hogwash.
In older editions, you didn't build your character around finding a particular piece of loot. You just played your character and rolled with whatever you found.
There's a huge, gaping difference. It's the same difference that the OP is referencing.

I would rather the players get to play the character they really want to play, rather than having to "roll with" whatever I decide to give them. It makes it more fun for them. As I said, there's a process and consequences for getting the items they actually want, it's not like they're just handed to them on a silver platter, but this way they get to have their character as they like, and I get more plot points to use in my story. Everyone wins.

[DivisibleByZero]

I would rather the players get to play the character they really want to play, rather than having to "roll with" whatever I decide to give them. It makes it more fun for them. As I said, there's a process and consequences for getting the items they actually want, it's not like they're just handed to them on a silver platter, but this way they get to have their character as they like, and I get more plot points to use in my story. Everyone wins.
Full circle.

MMOs have given this mindset to the players, to the detriment of the game.
Before MMOs were a thing, back in the days of AD&D2e, people didn't make "builds," they made characters, because you never knew what treasure might fall your way.
Once certain treasure becomes a part of the character you're building before you actually have that treasure, you aren't building a character, you're building a stat block.

[gameogre]

Nope. What you just said, all of that is the Hogwash.
In older editions, you didn't build your character around finding a particular piece of loot. You just played your character and rolled with whatever you found.
There's a huge, gaping difference. It's the same difference that the OP is referencing.

Nope wrong totally.

I've even have players make characters to use magic items their higher level characters found.

I've had players create characters who's entire adventuring point was to search out and find a certain magic item.


I also notice you didn't refute the fact that there were many builds in AD&D that had nothing to do with magic items. If you gathered 10 AD&D warriors 10+ level like 8 of them are going to be ambidextrous dual wielders lol!

[Joe the Rat]

For by-request items, I have three tiers of access: Shops, Antiquities, and Quest.

Shops are where you get your common consumables and components - healing potions, scrolls, spell components, fancy scroll/book ink, etc. Mind you this is not one-stop shopping: An herbalist or alchemist (tool-based, not a la Artificer 2.0) will have components, and small potions. Big cities might turn up some of the fancier/rarer/expensive items. A Scriptorium or temple is where you need to go if you are looking for new spells, or spell scrolls.

Antiquities are the somewhat rarer items -things that aren't game changing, often more utility or supportive - Wondrous items pop up here most. This takes some time - working the market looking for collectors or dealers who have ONE OR TWO unusual finds they might be willing to part with. Or going to an auction. Or mixing your piracy adventuring with a little burglary.

Quest items are the big ticket permanent items. Legendary (though not necessarily Legendary) items rumored to be in tombs or hoards, fantastic weapons and armor certain warlords or wizards are rumored to have - things that players specifically want placed in adventure loot. I will also sometimes have these as rewards from powerful (and busy) rulers and benefactors. Get me (X), and you can have (Y).

[DivisibleByZero]

I've even have players make characters to use magic items their higher level characters found.

"Hey, DM, you know all that cool stuff that we found on our adventures over all those years? I'm just going to give it all to some new character that I make. Cool?"

It's not my fault that you let that twinking fly, just like in an MMO.
If I rolled up a new character and told my DM that I had W, X, Y & Z magic items, because I'd found them on a different, higher level character, he'd pee himself laughing. If one of my players tried that, I'd wet myself, too.

[Willie the Duck]

Nope. What you just said, all of that is the Hogwash.
In older editions, you didn't build your character around finding a particular piece of loot. You just played your character and rolled with whatever you found.
There's a huge, gaping difference. It's the same difference that the OP is referencing.

I'm sorry, but you are pretending that your personal experience is a universalized truth, and as far as the rest of us can tell, have nothing to back it up except calling opposition responses Hogwash (i.e. the 'nuh-uh' defense).

There are slight variations in the wording of editions on whether one should hand out randomized treasure or not, but really there is nothing in any edition which makes it more of something DMs would do more than others. Perhaps the more system-mastery-heavy editions would allow a build-builder to better capitalize on knowing what magic items they could expect to get than other editions, but honestly that's a unsurprising, since the more system-mastery-heavy editions would allow a build-builder to better capitalize on any kind of predictability than other editions. There is simply nothing about the old days that is demonstrably different, so it is simply a case of game group preference.

So please, link up the survey you're referencing that shows how the game used to be played vs. how it is done now, or polish up your argument, or just sidle up to the bar and we'll poor you a geritol and prune juice cocktail, and you can tell us how much better the olden days were.

[Willie the Duck]

"Hey, DM, you know all that cool stuff that we found on our adventures over all those years? I'm just going to give it all to some new character that I make. Cool?"

It's not my fault that you let that twinking fly, just like in an MMO.
If I rolled up a new character and told my DM that I had W, X, Y & Z magic items, because I'd found them on a different, higher level character, he'd pee himself laughing. If one of my players tried that, I'd wet myself, too.

The apprentice system for having higher and lower level characters was part of the 1e AD&D system, and moving magic items from higher to lower level characters was at least popular enough to be lampooned in Knights of the Dinner Table.

[Reathin]

I recognize the idea of putting a tremendous pile of magical items in a horde to be sold like convention (if very expensive) items is a little absurd, like a store where you could find the Dead Sea Scrolls on a shelf with a few of Muramasa's more refined works, but be careful not to step on Excalibur, it keeps falling over from its case...but I can't help it, personally. Completely ignoring the convenience, the idea of a Magic Item Shop fascinates me. Particularly those "little shops that weren't there yesterday" styles where the store itself is magic. If done generically, turning it into Artifacts-R-Us, yeah, that's boring, but a cozy little wooden shop filled with strange mysteries on every store, where the books whisper their least secrets to catch your ear, or spirits sweep the floor perpetually, and the shopkeeper keeps appearing behind you literally the second a question forms in your head, knowing it before you say it? And looks a bit like you, actually, if significantly older...THAT kind of store writes stories faster than Issac Asimov on energy drinks.

I find the key is to address the crazy questions that a magic-mart raises:

1. Wouldn't that be a huge security risk?
Sure, but the person who owns it has either the personal power to make magic items at a decent rate (which speaks to high level wizards), or has discovered a means of infusing things with power without costing them anything/as much, which means they have little reason not to deck the store and themselves with a vast array of defenses. Neither case is easy to steal from. Plus, they have access to divination, wards, perhaps co-location or magic clones, spirit servants...Lots of ways to keep things from being stolen. That is, if the items aren't themselves cursed to cause mayhem with thieves.

2. Doesn't a high level caster have better things to do?
Maybe not! They might have a cause, appearing where needed to equip heroes who are accomplishing his or her goals (which your PCs just so happen to be doing, likely indirectly and unknowingly). Maybe they made a bargain with a power entity and this is the price it demanded (imagine a cleric of the god of trade deliberately using The Shop of No Consequence as a way to keep the adventuring economy strong, with gold flowing and their own power swelling). What if it's all a trap? Some creature's long-term ploy to control the general power of the forces of good (or law, or chaos or evil, depending on what it really is)? Maybe the wizard really doesn't have anything better to do, and finds it a good use of his perhaps limitless time? Or maybe, just maybe, they actually enjoy it. The look of wonder on people's faces when they look at their collection, the stories they might tell with your creations or acquisitions...Everyone has different priorities, and not all of them are strictly logical.

3. It makes magic items too common or too easily acquired
The shop might not have exactly what you're looking for, or the materials to enchant the thing you want...but who better to know where to go to get those materials, or items? Maybe that's how the wizard keeps things coming in. Adventurers are uniquely equipped to get things in dangerously places, which fuels their business, which fuels further adventures and so on.


Basically, a magic mart is only as interesting as you make it. Make it an actual place, with stories, rather than a place your players visit in downtime, and who knows where you might end up?

[DivisibleByZero]

I'm sorry, but you are pretending that your personal experience is a universalized truth, and as far as the rest of us can tell, have nothing to back it up except calling opposition responses Hogwash (i.e. the 'nuh-uh' defense).

I'm not the one that used the term Hogwash. I merely responded in kind.


So please, link up the survey you're referencing that shows how the game used to be played vs. how it is done now, or polish up your argument, or just sidle up to the bar and we'll poor you a geritol and prune juice cocktail, and you can tell us how much better the olden days were.

So please polish up your own argument, or just slide up to the bar and we'll pour you a nice big cup of reading comprehension to go with your derision.

[gameogre]

"Hey, DM, you know all that cool stuff that we found on our adventures over all those years? I'm just going to give it all to some new character that I make. Cool?"

It's not my fault that you let that twinking fly, just like in an MMO.
If I rolled up a new character and told my DM that I had W, X, Y & Z magic items, because I'd found them on a different, higher level character, he'd pee himself laughing. If one of my players tried that, I'd wet myself, too.

Well this was in 1980's well before mmo(whats your deal with MMO BADWRONG anyway? We don't play them so you kinda need to get over whatever issue you have because its coloring your views of things not realated)

Player characters often had younger brother pc's, wives and kids and ect..


So just what would be your reason for stopping a player from passing a +2 longsword down to his son? Or from the son just taking dads extra magic sword off the wall when the goblins attacked the farm?

You seem to be caught up in mmo's a lot. Do you play tabletop rpg's? Sorry man we just are not into mmo's.

[Naanomi]

I also notice you didn't refute the fact that there were many builds in AD&D that had nothing to do with magic items. If you gathered 10 AD&D warriors 10+ level like 8 of them are going to be ambidextrous dual wielders lol!
You mean using a cestus, the by far optimized build? Well, depends on the era of AD&D I guess... Complete Ninja era Naginata Grand Masters were pretty preposterous as well

[ZorroGames]

Find a magic using NPC in a "Tower/Temple/Deserted Fortress" or equivalent. While First Tier...

Convince him/her there is a, valid to him/her, reason to make such an item.

Go on many quests to pay his price for doing such {"Gold? Pfft! I trade "stuff" with Alvin the Alchemist when I need gold for some mundane reasons."}

Let him/her work on such while you adventure and make Tier 4 or at least top half Tier 3. It is going to take awhile.

Come back and hope he/she is alive, the finished item has not been stolen, and the maker has not reneged on the deal.

Or just talk your DM into a story line adventure with the opportunity to acquire the item.

[Vaz]

You have Polearm Master and rely on a +1 polearm. You now have like 20 other weapons to roll off against. You have a less than 5% chance to roll decent gear.

There is a reason people play Diablo, and that is to get the purposeful gear. It takes 20 minutes to run a GRift, at the highest difficulty. Smashing out 12 Grifts over the course of a 4 hour gaming session nets you 50+ Legendaries (including gambling).

That is a loot grinder game. You specifically run generic dungeons hundreds of times to get an increase of 1% to an items random roll, that increases your overall damage by very lottle, but it is an improvement.

D&D gives you one chance to get maybe 3 magic items within 4+ hours.

I've played Magic Crafters in 3.5 and 5, and my DM has gone to the extent of giving me feats that increase my speed of crafting in order to reduce down time for the rest of the party.

The party has more fun because they have more powerful gear that allows them to fight more dangerous fights, or blow away things that are less of an issue.

[DivisibleByZero]

To the people clamoring on about building a 2e character for a specific weapon:
My entire point was that those option basically didn't exist back then. You *couldn't* build a character around a single item, because character options were much more limited. There was one weapon specialization proficiency, and that's it. Nothing else. And why would you take it if you didn't have that weapon? And if you did take it, but never found a magic item of that type, then you'd use the magic weapon that you found and be no worse off because the magic just granted basically the same bonus (or more) than the specialization did.
So there was no such thing as "building around a magic item" in essence.
Sometimes your character sheet evolved to make you proficient and/or specialized with a new magic weapon that you found as you leveled up, but you didn't plan for it to happen, because you never knew if it *would* happen.
You worked with what you had, and that worked just fine.
Characters weren't planned. Characters evolved.

The moment 3e came out, with all of its feats and options, players suddenly felt entitled, and building around items that you may never even find became the norm. Characters didn't evolve. Characters were planned.
And if your DM didn't give you the items that you planned for then he was a jerk.

That's a backasswards mindset as far as I'm concerned.
That's the MMO mentality that I'm referring to.

[Unoriginal]

You have Polearm Master and rely on a +1 polearm.

Why would you rely on a +1 polearm?

[Vogie]

I mean, that's fine... if your group knows about of it ahead of time. Because if you don't, you risk throwing out perfectly good content. If you hate the supposed "MMO Mentality", you want things to happen the old way, and these other kids need to get off your lawn, but just surprise the group with it, you'll likely be shrinking the group quick. Because if someone wanted to play Indiana Jones, announcing a random loot table and no magic marts means they can't expect to ever find that whip or buy an enchanted fedora, they're the loser in that situation... and no one has left the tavern yet.

Yes, as a DM, you want to make an intriguing game that allows the players to grow their characters and be challenged, and you don't want them to cheese around it using a custom "skip all the puzzles" item. But also, players want to do things as well, even if it is, from time to time, being Batman and having a litany of magic devices for every occasion. Showing up to a game with the Batman build, and realizing they should probably take those daggers because they're not ever going to be able to buy shark repellant (or whatever it is they need).


Why would you rely on a +1 polearm?

Because are they really going to randomly roll another Polearm?

[ad_hoc]

The moment 3e came out, with all of its feats and options, players suddenly felt entitled, and building around items that you may never even find became the norm. Characters didn't evolve. Characters were planned.
And if your DM didn't give you the items that you planned for then he was a jerk.


This is why I made the thread.

This mentality is so ingrained that people are having a hard time understanding what I (we) are even talking about.

The pushback is "why don't you give people what they want?!?!" but the reality at my table is that no one makes builds with magic items in mind.

It's a chicken and egg problem.

I am encouraging people to try out a game where specific magic items aren't expected. I find it to be a lot of fun. It enhances the 5e style of having more game at the table than before.

Like you said, characters evolve during the game. Not only that, but interesting solutions to problems arise as well.


I mean, that's fine... if your group knows about of it ahead of time. Because if you don't, you risk throwing out perfectly good content. If you hate the supposed "MMO Mentality", you want things to happen the old way, and these other kids need to get off your lawn, but just surprise the group with it, you'll likely be shrinking the group quick. Because if someone wanted to play Indiana Jones, announcing a random loot table and no magic marts means they can't expect to ever find that whip or buy an enchanted fedora, they're the loser in that situation... and no one has left the tavern yet.

Indiana Jones' hat and whip weren't magic.

They also didn't define his character. They were just trappings. You can play cool, learned adventurer person and then in your adventures find treasure that is unique to that character and helps define them as a unique character.

I find that much more interesting.

[Willie the Duck]

This is why I made the thread.

This mentality is so ingrained that people are having a hard time understanding what I (we) are even talking about.

The pushback is "why don't you give people what they want?!?!" but the reality at my table is that no one makes builds with magic items in mind.

Well, not all the pushback, since my pushback is very much more, "it was never the case that this is what happened to everyone when 3e came out, and it certainly happened before then."

[DivisibleByZero]

This mentality is so ingrained that people are having a hard time understanding what I (we) are even talking about.

So completely true.

[Vogie]

Indiana Jones' hat and whip weren't magic.

They also didn't define his character. They were just trappings. You can play cool, learned adventurer person and then in your adventures find treasure that is unique to that character and helps define them as a unique character.

I find that much more interesting.

I'm not saying they were magic. The whip would be exotic, and the hat would be mundane and likely sweaty, at best. And to you, those things don't define his character. To you, the archetype is much more unique and interesting... But your player may not be you. In fact, if you're the DM, one would hope that they player isn't you. The things that you find interesting, unique and defining can quite easily be seen as dull, random, and absurd to the person sitting to your left.

It comes down to playstyles. A gambling addict plays poker different than a professional poker player, and both play differently than an average Jo playing with his college buddies. They're all playing poker, with the same cards, and even the same rules, but they're playing three different games.

You're playing D&D. The person trying to stat up Lara Croft is also playing D&D. That's why I stated, straight up, that this is FINE... provided people know about it ahead of time.

[mephnick]

Let's see, I have a "Magic Weapon" as 3 spots on my d100 level 5-10 hoard table (not available at 0-4 at all) and 3 spots on my 10-13 hoard table (world caps at 13).

So I guess that's a 3% chance to find a magic weapon in any hoard after level 5, but if you do, I'll probably make it one someone can use!

[ad_hoc]

You're playing D&D. The person trying to stat up Lara Croft is also playing D&D. That's why I stated, straight up, that this is FINE... provided people know about it ahead of time.

They're not actually, Lara Croft defies genre conventions.

So does Indiana Jones for that matter for the same reason.

He mostly used his whip for exploration. There is no reason why you need a magical whip for that.

In combat he used it to disarm people's guns so that there could be fist fights.

You can of course play however you want. No one is stopping you from putting modern firearms in your game or allowing players to pick out/ask for with the expectation of receiving magic items.

I am of the opinion that playing another way makes for a richer game and I encourage you to try it out.

[Pex]

This is why I made the thread.

This mentality is so ingrained that people are having a hard time understanding what I (we) are even talking about.

The pushback is "why don't you give people what they want?!?!" but the reality at my table is that no one makes builds with magic items in mind.

It's a chicken and egg problem.

I am encouraging people to try out a game where specific magic items aren't expected. I find it to be a lot of fun. It enhances the 5e style of having more game at the table than before.

Like you said, characters evolve during the game. Not only that, but interesting solutions to problems arise as well.



But you're taking the opposite extreme of never giving a player what he wants, and I don't find that a feature of fun. Why would you be so adamant against providing for a magic greatsword if magic weapons are thing in the game and a player likes for his character to use a greatsword throughout his adventuring career?

[Vaz]

Why would you rely on a +1 polearm?

I'm using OP's argument. They got a +1 Polearm so took Polearm master. They're now locked into using Polearms. Ergo, reliant on +1 Polearm until they can do better.

Edit; I don't think anybody really cares what Dividebyzero thinks. He's old school, in the sense that they walked up hill both ways to school.

[Tanarii]

For example, say a magic polearm was rolled.
How, exactly? There are no random tables for specifying what kind of weapon a magical weapon is. Some specific magic weapons are specific types, but even then there's no table to roll on for a specific if it can be one of several. And the DMG even says you may select or roll randomly, although it doesn't give you a method to do the latter. So the DM is already forgoing a valid explicitly stated option by choosing something other than polearm.

Armor would have been a better example. Despite saying if the type isn't specified the DM should either pick or make a random determination, the majority of the tables have specific types.

the DMG explicitly says magic marts an are option, although it also explicitly says the default assumption is they aren't unless you decide otherwise. (DMG 135-136, buying and selling.)

Edit: I skimmed, but I couldn't see the usual tables caveat DMG writers like to include about selecting appropriate items if the random roll doesn't fit. Which I find interesting. Although it could be because they felt it was already covered by spathe tone set in the intro (which I haven't read in a while but I recall setting the tone of the book being suggested tools to help you customize your own world.)

[Saeviomage]

I feel like a world where magic items are completely impossible to buy is every bit as ludicrous as the one 3e proposed where every possible magic item is available.

I prefer a middle ground. Traders in magic (overt or covert) will exist. They won't sell mass-produced items because the rules make mass production infeasible. The bulk of their wares will be at the very, very low end of things: minor skill bonuses, knives that stay sharp, scrolls of a cantrip, that sort of thing. Stuff that could actually be reasonably bought by people who don't qualify for a noble lifestyle. Big ticket items (ie - regular DMG items that aren't total swill) will be rare and will be a "you get whatever I happen to have" deal, not the sort of thing where you place an order.

There's probably going to be people with whom you can place an order... but it's kind of like buying a high end artwork. The more specific you go, the more money and time it will take, and the bigger the likely hood is that you'll end up with something of questionable ownership or credentials.

In short - magic item shops are kind of like hoards that take your money instead of giving it to you, and don't require you to kill a dragon.

[ad_hoc]

How, exactly? There are no random tables for specifying what kind of weapon a magical weapon is. Some specific magic weapons are specific types, but even then there's no table to roll on for a specific if it can be one of several. And the DMG even says you may select or roll randomly, although it doesn't give you a method to do the latter. So the DM is already forgoing a valid explicitly stated option by choosing something other than polearm.

Armor would have been a better example. Despite saying if the type isn't specified the DM should either pick or make a random determination, the majority of the tables have specific types.

the DMG explicitly says magic marts an are option, although it also explicitly says the default assumption is they aren't unless you decide otherwise. (DMG 135-136, buying and selling.)

Edit: I skimmed, but I couldn't see the usual tables caveat DMG writers like to include about selecting appropriate items if the random roll doesn't fit. Which I find interesting. Although it could be because they felt it was already covered by spathe tone set in the intro (which I haven't read in a while but I recall setting the tone of the book being suggested tools to help you customize your own world.)

I'm not making the argument that the way I do it is RAW so it should be the way it's done.

I am making the argument that 5e supports this style of play and my group has found it to work very well and I encourage you to try it out too.

[gameogre]

I'm not making the argument that the way I do it is RAW so it should be the way it's done.

I am making the argument that 5e supports this style of play and my group has found it to work very well and I encourage you to try it out too.

5E supports every style of play so......yeah try out different stuff and see what works for you. Please though after you find out what works for you, don't come back here like your style is best and BETTER than any other style.

It's not. It's just what works for you.

[JAL_1138]

No magic item exists without the DM's permission. Magic marts are not necessary, but not giving PCs everything they want is not the same thing as never giving them what they want. It's nice for a found magic item to inspire future character development, but there's also nothing wrong with a player having already developed his character to level 20 in his head. If he wants to use a greatsword he will use a greatsword, and it's not the DM's place to encourage him to use something else by never finding a magical greatsword but look at all these magical maces, long swords, tridents, quarterstaves, and daggers to be found. Let him find a magical greatsword already.

Hear hear. Well said. There's a big difference between that and the full-on magic mart.


To the people clamoring on about building a 2e character for a specific weapon:
My entire point was that those option basically didn't exist back then. You *couldn't* build a character around a single item, because character options were much more limited. There was one weapon specialization proficiency, and that's it. Nothing else. And why would you take it if you didn't have that weapon? And if you did take it, but never found a magic item of that type, then you'd use the magic weapon that you found and be no worse off because the magic just granted basically the same bonus (or more) than the specialization did.
So there was no such thing as "building around a magic item" in essence.
Sometimes your character sheet evolved to make you proficient and/or specialized with a new magic weapon that you found as you leveled up, but you didn't plan for it to happen, because you never knew if it *would* happen.
You worked with what you had, and that worked just fine.
Characters weren't planned. Characters evolved.

The moment 3e came out, with all of its feats and options, players suddenly felt entitled, and building around items that you may never even find became the norm. Characters didn't evolve. Characters were planned.
And if your DM didn't give you the items that you planned for then he was a jerk.

That's a backasswards mindset as far as I'm concerned.
That's the MMO mentality that I'm referring to.


In practice, it often led to "you practically have no chance of getting any magic weapon except a longsword, because of the way the loot tables are set up, so you'd better take specialization in that rather than something like bec-de-corbin, if you specialize before getting a magic weapon." Which was a bit odd, considering thr weapons table's love of polearms, but nonetheless. I don't think I ever saw a single magical bec-de-corbin, ever.

It was still annoying back then if you couldn't use the type of weapons you favored because they simply never cropped up, or if you discovered you'd functionally wasted your specialization, or if you had rubbish Dex and only ever found magic ranged weapons (unlikely, given the loot tables' love of longswords, but still possible).

Additionally, it's harsher in 5e to have a weapon you can't use well due to stats and that you're locked into certain choices at certain levels, typically early levels before magic weapons become available. Bonuses and penalties to accuracy kick in way sooner in 5e, and proficiency bonus is less of a factor in accuracy than THAC0 was (you didn't start getting damage bonuses 'till 16 Str, or accuracy bonuses 'till 17). If you roll great stats for a ranged combatant with a crappy STR, take Archery style at first level (before you've ever rolled), and your only means to damage a resistant/immune enemy is the +1 greatsword you found because the DM refuses to tailor any loot to the party's actual capabilities, it's going to be really annoying. If you're starting from an 8 Str, you likely don't have room to "evolve" to greatsword use because you don't get enough ASIs to improve your hit chance to anything worthwhile.

Building around a magic item is different than choosing a particular style for a character, too. Building around an item is more akin to "I can dump Int because I'll get a headband of intellect later." Not the same thing as "I'd like to actually find items my character can use worth a dang."

[Naanomi]

And I don't think anyone who doesn't like magic marts is necessarily saying that we don't let characters get the general type of items they want for their characters in either organic or contrived ways.

At the end of the first big adventure path in my current campaign, the Baron used his contacts to get the players their choice or a +1 weapon of their choice or a +1 ring of protection.

Also, I generally set time in adventures for people who want to track down specific items in treasure hoards or in personal collections of potential patrons using contacts or knowledge skills... though honestly it has never been something players choose to do much.

I'm not beyond just 'happening' to find a cool item in a hoard that seems to fit a certain character either... though generally I do this with conceptually cool rather than completely optimized gear... if I have a whip Fighter in the party, I'm more likely to artificially place a +1 whip that does big sonic damage on a critical than just a +3 whip; or a cool utility trick item (a 'glove of holding') rather than a flat mechanical bonus (pickpocketing gloves) for a thief character