Scry and die inventiveness

[nintendoh]

You found the generic bad guy. Congratulations, how do you kill him?

[ColorBlindNinja]

What level are we talking about?

[Goladar]

Finger of Death to the face.

[evedgebah]

Magic Aura-ed Gemstone Foci for Trap the Soul to read as non-magcal, delivered to him (you stated him) as tribute. No chance of resurrection or him bargaining with demon lords, just my eternal prisoner.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Magic Aura-ed Gemstone Foci for Trap the Soul to read as non-magcal, delivered to him (you stated him) as tribute. No chance of resurrection or him bargaining with demon lords, just my eternal prisoner.

Magic Aura does allow a Will save if he casts Identify on the gem. That could be a problem if he's a caster.

If you get him to fail the Will save, Imprisonment is pretty good too. It requires a specific 9th level spell to free him.

[nintendoh]

How are you able to cast that from way out of range and such?


Any level.


Not a wizard player so i may be familiar with the concept, but the the execution.

[ColorBlindNinja]

How are you able to cast that from way out of range and such?


Any level.


Not a wizard player so i may be familiar with the concept, but the the execution.

You generally teleport under the effect of Time Stop and then unleash your arcane furry.

[nintendoh]

Are there any spells you can cast through a scrying pool without being physically present. Take that scene from order of the stick when roy is dead and with his pops spying on the team. No teleport just cast?

[ColorBlindNinja]

Are there any spells you can cast through a scrying pool without being physically present. Take that scene from order of the stick when roy is dead and with his pops spying on the team. No teleport just cast?

I'm pretty sure you need epic magic to actually attack people through a scry pool.

[ryu]

Are there any spells you can cast through a scrying pool without being physically present. Take that scene from order of the stick when roy is dead and with his pops spying on the team. No teleport just cast?

Depends. Does sending minions count?

[rel]

That's odd. All the scrolls in this scroll case just read
'I prepared explosive runes this morning.'

[Malacandra]

You generally teleport under the effect of Time Stop and then unleash your arcane furry.

If it was me I'd unleash arcane fury, but your way works too.

[nintendoh]

What are some really odd or funny wait to effectively use this tactic

[javcs]

Magic Aura-ed Gemstone Foci for Trap the Soul to read as non-magcal, delivered to him (you stated him) as tribute. No chance of resurrection or him bargaining with demon lords, just my eternal prisoner.


Magic Aura does allow a Will save if he casts Identify on the gem. That could be a problem if he's a caster.

If you get him to fail the Will save, Imprisonment is pretty good too. It requires a specific 9th level spell to free him.

You've both misread Trap the Soul.

If you use the Trigger Object method, the gem stays with you, and the Trigger Object (the focus component) can be basically anything else - like a letter addressed to the target.


Also, if something doesn't read as magical, and there's no particular reason it should be reading as magical or reason to doubt the lack of a magical aura, then there's relatively little reason to spend an casting of Identify on it - what with the arcane material component and, more importantly, the hour-long casting time.

This works well with those that are extremely well defended and hard to kill, if somewhat slower than most, as the trigger object needs to get to the target. In addition, this method bypasses pretty much any form of contingent revival or return from being killed/destroyed/eliminated until/unless someone steals the containment gem away from you.



Alternatively, if I'm on the evil side, Mind Rape or Programmed Amnesia (or any other form of full memory editing) on someone (probably expendable/not a party member/friend/ally) to make them believe that they are madly in love with the target and Love's Pain until the target dies.
Unfortunately, this does not get around, bypass, or otherwise forestall most means of contingent revival or return from being killed/destroyed/eliminated.


Get a piece of Thinuan into contact with them before killing them. I think it's Thinuan - the special material that can trap the soul of someone who dies while in contact with it.



But, realistically, the Trigger Object-method Trap the Soul is straight up one of the best ways to take someone out of the game permanently - if you can pull it off.

Bonus points with any method that ends up with their soul under your control - it can be used for XP costs, to create magic items or cast spells (realistically, craft items), which means that their allies have no chance of stealing away whatever means you used to contain their soul and releasing them.

[Segev]

Create a simulacrum or otherwise send a minion to his lair with a packet of documents proposing an alliance, possibly including intel on my party and whatever other organizations this bad guy opposes of which I am a member. When he accepts the documents, the trigger word for trap the soul inscribed on one of them activates and traps him in a gem sitting in my office.

[ColorBlindNinja]

You've both misread Trap the Soul.

If you use the Trigger Object method, the gem stays with you, and the Trigger Object (the focus component) can be basically anything else - like a letter addressed to the target.


Also, if something doesn't read as magical, and there's no particular reason it should be reading as magical or reason to doubt the lack of a magical aura, then there's relatively little reason to spend an casting of Identify on it - what with the arcane material component and, more importantly, the hour-long casting time.

This works well with those that are extremely well defended and hard to kill, if somewhat slower than most, as the trigger object needs to get to the target. In addition, this method bypasses pretty much any form of contingent revival or return from being killed/destroyed/eliminated until/unless someone steals the containment gem away from you.



Alternatively, if I'm on the evil side, Mind Rape or Programmed Amnesia (or any other form of full memory editing) on someone (probably expendable/not a party member/friend/ally) to make them believe that they are madly in love with the target and Love's Pain until the target dies.
Unfortunately, this does not get around, bypass, or otherwise forestall most means of contingent revival or return from being killed/destroyed/eliminated.


Get a piece of Thinuan into contact with them before killing them. I think it's Thinuan - the special material that can trap the soul of someone who dies while in contact with it.



But, realistically, the Trigger Object-method Trap the Soul is straight up one of the best ways to take someone out of the game permanently - if you can pull it off.

Bonus points with any method that ends up with their soul under your control - it can be used for XP costs, to create magic items or cast spells (realistically, craft items), which means that their allies have no chance of stealing away whatever means you used to contain their soul and releasing them.

Maybe I'm paranoid, but if I was a BBEG I would spam divination on anything remotely suspicious. You don't survive to high levels by being careless.

[javcs]

Maybe I'm paranoid, but if I was a BBEG I would spam divination on anything remotely suspicious. You don't survive to high levels by being careless.

A BBEG's time is valuable. While paranoia is a survival trait, taking it too far keeps you from getting anything done, because you're letting the paranoia occupy too much of your time/actions/activities. And then you're not actually in the BBEG club anymore, because they're actually out carrying out their plans, and you're hiding in your secure location.


There are practical limitations on just how much divination spam can be done, as such, one would need to prioritize.

Identify has an hour long casting time. You're not going to spend an hour checking everything you touch before you touch it.


The Trigger Object-method of Trap the Soul works because it's on a mundane, entirely nonthreatening object that isn't suspicious and/or something that the target desires enough or is sufficiently interested in to take despite any unchecked for/unmitigated potential risks involved.


Most of the time, if you're going to check a letter for hazards, I'd expect checking for poisons, explosive runes, other magical glyphs/runes/sigils, and other active magics. If a letter scans clean for poison, and doesn't have a magical aura on it, and nothing happens to the guy who held it/took it out of the envelope ... justifying taking an hour and casting Identify on it just to maybe get a Will save against a Magic Aura on it that's any other magic on it is kind of difficult.

[ColorBlindNinja]

A BBEG's time is valuable. While paranoia is a survival trait, taking it too far keeps you from getting anything done, because you're letting the paranoia occupy too much of your time/actions/activities. And then you're not actually in the BBEG club anymore, because they're actually out carrying out their plans, and you're hiding in your secure location.


There are practical limitations on just how much divination spam can be done, as such, one would need to prioritize.

Identify has an hour long casting time. You're not going to spend an hour checking everything you touch before you touch it.


The Trigger Object-method of Trap the Soul works because it's on a mundane, entirely nonthreatening object that isn't suspicious and/or something that the target desires enough or is sufficiently interested in to take despite any unchecked for/unmitigated potential risks involved.


Most of the time, if you're going to check a letter for hazards, I'd expect checking for poisons, explosive runes, other magical glyphs/runes/sigils, and other active magics. If a letter scans clean for poison, and doesn't have a magical aura on it, and nothing happens to the guy who held it/took it out of the envelope ... justifying taking an hour and casting Identify on it just to maybe get a Will save against a Magic Aura on it that's any other magic on it is kind of difficult.

I'd think not dying would be worth the time. Uncanny Forethought also can reduce that hour long casting time to 6 seconds.

I realize not every DM is going to run the BBEG as an absurdly paranoid hyper-competent genius. But it's not hard in 3.5 to stay holed up in your lair while sending powerful minions to do your dirty work for you.

[ryu]

I'd think not dying would be worth the time. Uncanny Forethought also can reduce that hour long casting time to 6 seconds.

I realize not every DM is going to run the BBEG as an absurdly paranoid hyper-competent genius. But it's not hard in 3.5 to stay holed up in your lair while sending powerful minions to do your dirty work for you.

And besides, the identify needn't be cast by you. That's grunt work. further still if the item appears non-magical to common arcane sight there's no reason it should be harmed by a simple dispel magic specifically for magical aura tricks. This isn't even hard.

[The_Jette]

And besides, the identify needn't be cast by you. That's grunt work. further still if the item appears non-magical to common arcane sight there's no reason it should be harmed by a simple dispel magic specifically for magical aura tricks. This isn't even hard.

Is it possible to build an Unhallow affect around your main war office, or whatever, with the added ability to casting dispel magic on anything entering into the area of effect? Because, that would take care of it, and be a really useful tool against buffed adventure parties.

[Anthrowhale]

"Mass Make Manifest" can hit very hard unless the BBEG has multiplanar defenses. The basic strategy is that you go to the place on a coexistent plane (e.g. the plane of shadow) where the BBEG is, then prepare your ambush, then cast Mass Make Manifest. This is a save:no spell that transports the BBEG into your ambush and disables the BBEGs ability to do planar escape.

[ryu]

Is it possible to build an Unhallow affect around your main war office, or whatever, with the added ability to casting dispel magic on anything entering into the area of effect? Because, that would take care of it, and be a really useful tool against buffed adventure parties.

I mean... I'd rather have minions I can direct do it. That way I can have magical things in my own damn office so long as I had constant supervision on them.

Edit: Teleportation contingency, possibly wish based. Nice try though. Or simply have an active lock on planar travel you only disable when you intentionally leave.

[The_Jette]

I mean... I'd rather have minions I can direct do it. That way I can have magical things in my own damn office so long as I had constant supervision on them.

I just meant dispel, not disjunction. It wouldn't affect permanent magic items, just buffs and things like magical traps. At least, that's how I think it works...

Edit: I just checked the SRD. It wouldn't affect magic items, but items that are under the affects of a spell, such as a scroll that is the focus of a Trap Soul spell, would be affected. And, creatures entering the area under the affects of spells would be affected, too.

[ryu]

I just meant dispel, not disjunction. It wouldn't affect permanent magic items, just buffs and things like magical traps. At least, that's how I think it works...

It can still cause the magic item to be suppressed for a number of rounds and the resurgence of magic could be argued to be reentering. Remove the fiddly bits.

[The_Jette]

It can still cause the magic item to be suppressed for a number of rounds and the resurgence of magic could be argued to be reentering. Remove the fiddly bits.

Check out my edit. The spell flat out says it ignores Magic Items. :smallbiggrin:

[ryu]

Check out my edit. The spell flat out says it ignores Magic Items. :smallbiggrin:

False. It actually targets the item and makes a roll against the caster level check used to create it. If successful it's suppressed for 1D4 rounds. Have a nice day and thank you for calling the SRD hotline. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dispelMagic.htm)

[The_Jette]

False. It actually targets the item and makes a roll against the caster level check used to create it. If successful it's suppressed for 1D4 rounds. Have a nice day and thank you for calling the SRD hotline. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dispelMagic.htm)

Dude, that's the targeted affect ability. The area affect does not target any magic items at all. Look again.

Area Dispel

When dispel magic is used in this way, the spell affects everything within a 20-foot radius.

For each creature within the area that is the subject of one or more spells, you make a dispel check against the spell with the highest caster level. If that check fails, you make dispel checks against progressively weaker spells until you dispel one spell (which discharges the dispel magic spell so far as that target is concerned) or until you fail all your checks. The creature’s magic items are not affected.

For each object within the area that is the target of one or more spells, you make dispel checks as with creatures. Magic items are not affected by an area dispel.

[Segev]

The proper defense against trigger-item trap the soul is to never accept gifts. Always have a stand-in do it for you. Simulacra of yourself are good for this.

[ColorBlindNinja]

The proper defense against trigger-item trap the soul is to never accept gifts. Always have a stand-in do it for you. Simulacra of yourself are good for this.

I like it. Such a villain should be out to destroy Christmas.

"You fools! Don't celebrate a holiday centered around gift giving! You'll lose your souls!"

[javcs]

And besides, the identify needn't be cast by you. That's grunt work. further still if the item appears non-magical to common arcane sight there's no reason it should be harmed by a simple dispel magic specifically for magical aura tricks. This isn't even hard.

Ah, but then you're pitting your underling's caster level and Will save against the caster level and save DC of those pesky PCs for your security. Also, it means you need to trust the minions enough that they're handling everything you might touch.



The proper defense against trigger-item trap the soul is to never accept gifts. Always have a stand-in do it for you. Simulacra of yourself are good for this.

Then you need to either regift it or stick it somewhere you'll never touch it, much less use it, yourself. A simulacrum of yourself wouldn't clear it for future safe handling. A Body Outside Body clone copy might. A Trigger focus remains the trigger focus until activated.

[ryu]

Dude, that's the targeted affect ability. The area affect does not target any magic items at all. Look again.

Area Dispel

When dispel magic is used in this way, the spell affects everything within a 20-foot radius.

For each creature within the area that is the subject of one or more spells, you make a dispel check against the spell with the highest caster level. If that check fails, you make dispel checks against progressively weaker spells until you dispel one spell (which discharges the dispel magic spell so far as that target is concerned) or until you fail all your checks. The creature’s magic items are not affected.

For each object within the area that is the target of one or more spells, you make dispel checks as with creatures. Magic items are not affected by an area dispel.

Why the hell are you using area dispels on suspect items when dangerous magic items via cursed or similar are like half of what you're defending against? That's like having specifically only see invisibility instead of true seeing.

Edit: and your point Jav? I don't use minions that aren't expendable and after they've read it they'll simply destroy it, then pass on what they read to other expendable minions. Chains of redundancy.

[The_Jette]

Why the hell are you using area dispels on suspect items when dangerous magic items via cursed or similar are like half of what you're defending against? That's like having specifically only see invisibility instead of true seeing.

Well, I assumed that putting Dispel Magic on an area spell immediately defaulted to the area affect ability of the spell. But, I'd think the bad guy would also like to be able to have his own magical items in the area that he spends the most of his time. And, I wouldn't think that cursed items would be the thing that the bad guy would be worried about. Enemies attacking while invisible? Yes. A Cleric with Divine Power? Yes. Trap Soul? Yes. Cursed Items? Probably not.

[javcs]

Edit: and your point Jav? I don't use minions that aren't expendable and after they've read it they'll simply destroy it, then pass on what they read to other expendable minions. Chains of redundancy.
And what if there's a hidden message on the paper? Say in invisible ink, or a message encoded based on how it is written on said paper (ie, punctuation, other forms of hiding messages in text)?

Using minion chains means each and every minion in that chain needs to be completely trustworthy at an extremely high level. The kind of paranoia that would have you using minions to examine a message so you avoid any potential traps on it would also make it difficult to find sufficiently reliable and trustworthy minions, IMO.

[Braininthejar2]

if you can get a line of effect to his window to cast a summon - my last player made me like the idea of surprise wolverines.

depending on how well he's warded, earthgliding monsters might get him.

if he's in a tower, send thoqquas through load-bearing walls to bring it down.

if he's underground, see if you can flood the place. or drop a deathcloud in and wait.

rebuke a shadow and send it to kill him in his sleep

[ryu]

Well, I assumed that putting Dispel Magic on an area spell immediately defaulted to the area affect ability of the spell. But, I'd think the bad guy would also like to be able to have his own magical items in the area that he spends the most of his time. And, I wouldn't think that cursed items would be the thing that the bad guy would be worried about. Enemies attacking while invisible? Yes. A Cleric with Divine Power? Yes. Trap Soul? Yes. Cursed Items? Probably not.

Very much yes actually. Have you seen the full list of cursed/dangerous items? They're terrifying. I once had a deck of many things delivered disguised as a simple deck of playing cards, and I'm sorry but no. Just no. Never again.

Jav: This is why the smart kids create their own minions then program them with mind rape so they act in defined, predictable ways.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Very much yes actually. Have you seen the full list of cursed/dangerous items? They're terrifying. I once had a deck of many things delivered disguised as a simple deck of playing cards, and I'm sorry but no. Just no. Never again.

I will never touch a deck of cards again. :smalleek:

[ryu]

I will never touch a deck of cards again. :smalleek:

Luckily we caught that one before... things... happened. Still total nightmare fuel though.

[The_Jette]

Very much yes actually. Have you seen the full list of cursed/dangerous items? They're terrifying. I once had a deck of many things delivered disguised as a simple deck of playing cards, and I'm sorry but no. Just no. Never again.

Jav: This is why the smart kids create their own minions then program them with mind rape so they act in defined, predictable ways.

I don't think that an artifact level magic aura can be covered with Nystul's. And, yes, I've seen the list of cursed items. I'm not sure what you mean by "dangerous" items, though. A normal dagger can be dangerous, depending on who's using it. Still, it doesn't really matter much, given that the scenario was a plausible defense against someone casting a spell that can be delivered by someone else and cause instant death. I think an area affect dispel is good enough. If you don't, there's nothing I can say to change that.

[Calthropstu]

Actually, the best way to conduct day to day business, such as reading letters, accepting tributes etc would be to do so within an AMF or dead magic zone. It defeats all powers and abilities that could trap or kill you from afar.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Actually, the best way to conduct day to day business, such as reading letters, accepting tributes etc would be to do so within an AMF or dead magic zone. It defeats all powers and abilities that could trap or kill you from afar.

Make it a Selective AMF and you're golden. Of course, that's probably too high OP for most groups.

[ryu]

Actually, the best way to conduct day to day business, such as reading letters, accepting tributes etc would be to do so within an AMF or dead magic zone. It defeats all powers and abilities that could trap or kill you from afar.

And then someone finds a way to get at you with an item hiding an invoke magic trap while you're guard is down because you think you're safe. Let me tell you something. If you think you have no enemies you do, and if you think you're safe they're coming for you.

[ColorBlindNinja]

And then someone finds a way to get at you with an item hiding an invoke magic trap while you're guard is down because you think you're safe. Let me tell you something. If you think you have no enemies you do, and if you think you're safe they're coming for you.

While that's an interesting idea, I'm pretty sure Invoke Magic only allows you to cast a spell.

I guess you could argue the line, "You cause a flicker of magic to momentarily exist in a place where magic cannot normally function, such as within the area of an antimagic field, a dead magic area, or a null-magic plane.", might allow a magic item to function.

It would only last one round though, and magic items/traps should be detected by Arcane Sight or its Greater cousin. Unless you used Magic Aura. Or would Arcane Sight detect that? :smallsigh:

[ryu]

While that's an interesting idea, I'm pretty sure Invoke Magic only allows you to cast a spell.

I guess you could argue the line, "You cause a flicker of magic to momentarily exist in a place where magic cannot normally function, such as within the area of an antimagic field, a dead magic area, or a null-magic plane.", might allow a magic item to function.

It would only last one round though, and magic items/traps should be detected by Arcane Sight or its Greater cousin. Unless you used Magic Aura. Or would Arcane Sight detect that? :smallsigh:

I think you're starting to get a feel for exactly how deep this rabbit hole goes. High level caster to caster combat is all about information gathering as offense, with paranoia as defense. Creativity bolsters both. I have been personally involved in a lot of such combat, and am thus paranoid so hard it's actually a forum meme among people who know of me. Like.... Have you ever seen the old spy versus spy cartoons? Imagine that only... more.

[nintendoh]

This was very enlightening and resulted in some cursing.