What's the best entry into Chameleon?

[Soranar]

I'm trying to find something that will contribute to the chameleon chassis, so far this is what I noticed

-Factotum 8 = -extra actions
-INT to skills

-Spellthief 8 = boosted caster level through master spellthief (and it's a significant boost)

Problem, both of these either delay chameleon entry or get you an ability at a much later date (level 18)

-human paragon = extra feat, stat, skillpoints

-Maybe Marshal level for some of the better auras?

-Rogue 3 for the ACF that lets you sneak attack anything

-Barbarian dip for pounce

Maybe a wildshape ranger could finagle the skillpoints to enter by level 6 somehow

I'm open to suggestions

[evedgebah]

Neither Factotum nor Spellthief should Delay Chameleon Entry if I recall their class skills correctly. Both are good entries in my opinion - is the concern for delayed other class abilities?

[prototype00]

I was just thinking about the Factotum entry myself, how do you happen to feel about a Factotum 5 entry instead? It maps to regular spell progression better, I feel.

Plus the floating feat is a real boost to power at 7th level.

[Soranar]

Neither Factotum nor Spellthief should Delay Chameleon Entry if I recall their class skills correctly. Both are good entries in my opinion - is the concern for delayed other class abilities?

You only get the factotum ability at level 8 so you don't start chameleon until level 9 or

you enter chameleon at level 6 and then you continue factotum from level 16+

In the first case you get the extra standard action earlier but you have less to do with it
in the second case you get the extra standard action so late it might never see play (level 18)

[prototype00]

You only get the factotum ability at level 8 so you don't start chameleon until level 9 or

you enter chameleon at level 6 and then you continue factotum from level 16+

In the first case you get the extra standard action earlier but you have less to do with it
in the second case you get the extra standard action so late it might never see play (level 18)

Well, my personal preference was to stagger things somewhat. So Factotum 5 / Chameleon 7 / Factotum 3 / Chameleon 3 / Factotum 2

The 7th Level of Chameleon gives you a lot of goodies to play with and up to 5th level spells and dual focus.

Extra actions comes online at 15th which is late but hopefully still in reach for PCs.

[Soranar]

I was just thinking about the Factotum entry myself, how do you happen to feel about a Factotum 5 entry instead? It maps to regular spell progression better, I feel.

Plus the floating feat is a real boost to power at 7th level.

I'm not sold on the factotum entry when I compare it

After 5 levels you don't get much more than a bucket of skillpoints, INT to every skill you need

You really need the extra standard action to justify more than Factotum 3

A rogue entry would do something similar and give me sneak attack

A marshal dip is great for certain auras and would give me CHA to certain skills instead


And there's always the ranger idea

Say I play a silverbrow human (adds disguise as class skill)
and I play a criminal apprentice (adds bluff as a class skill)

then I can get Ranger 5 /Chameleon 10

-I can get wildshape from ranger
-Full BAB, 2 good saves, x6 skillpoints (and able learner is a requirement anyway so cross class skills is not much of an issue)
-The wildshape is really quite useful for versatilty and it mostly fixes my STAT problems (letting me concentrate on WIS and INT)

I haven't check incarnum or binders yet, maybe they'll bring something interesting to the table

Finally an initiator class might be a better option altogether

[Griswold]

My favorite entry into Chameleon is to go crazy with multiclassing to get as versatile a character as possible:
Changeling Rogue 1/Cloistered Cleric 1/Binder 1/Totemist 2


Being a Changeling lets you change appearance at will.
The Rogue substitution level gives you a ton of skill points.
Cloistered Cleric gives you turn attempts. Get Travel and Knowledge devotion, then whatever third domain you like.
It also gets you a caster level, this plus Practiced Spellcaster so can get item creation feats with your Chameleon floating feat.
Binder 1 + Improved Binding gives you access to every 1st and 2nd level vestige. This can get you armor and weapon proficiencies, a natural attack, telekinesis, unarmed strike, invisibility, at-will benign transposition, and more.
Totemist 2 gets you the totem bind, which gives you another pile of access to at-wills. Teleportation, natural attacks, etc.


At this point you can pretend to be practically anything with one day notice.

[Rebel7284]

My favorite entry into Chameleon is to go crazy with multiclassing to get as versatile a character as possible:
Changeling Rogue 1/Cloistered Cleric 1/Binder 1/Totemist 2


Being a Changeling lets you change appearance at will.
The Rogue substitution level gives you a ton of skill points.
Cloistered Cleric gives you turn attempts. Get Travel and Knowledge devotion, then whatever third domain you like.
It also gets you a caster level, this plus Practiced Spellcaster so can get item creation feats with your Chameleon floating feat.
Binder 1 + Improved Binding gives you access to every 1st and 2nd level vestige. This can get you armor and weapon proficiencies, a natural attack, telekinesis, unarmed strike, invisibility, at-will benign transposition, and more.
Totemist 2 gets you the totem bind, which gives you another pile of access to at-wills. Teleportation, natural attacks, etc.


At this point you can pretend to be practically anything with one day notice.

I'll second all of this. While Factotum 8/Chameleon 10 looks great on paper, there is no non-awkward way to do it outside of gestalt. Cloistered Cleric also opens up the possibility of Divine Metamagic[Persistent Spell].

[Nifft]

Factotum is a poor entry choice -- you really want to start Chameleon ASAP, which means class level 1 at character level 6.

I'd prefer:

Cloistered Cleric (Knowledge, Trickery, +1 domain) => 1 to 5 levels, grants the skills you need, plus a real caster level for Item Creation feats during downtime, and real Turn Undead attempts for DMM shenanigans.

More Cleric shenanigans:
- Initiate of Olidammara from Dr#342 (which fits the Chameleon's flavor but maybe not your campaign setting): add Gather Information, Sleight of Hand, and Tumble to your skill list; gain the ability to prepare 3 levels of Bard spells by spending a 2nd level Cleric slot (!!!). Yeah you can cast Glibness at Cleric level 3, and that never stops being useful.
- Initiate of Obad-Hai also from Dr#342 (which does not fit the flavor at all): you can convert prepared spells into SNA just like a Druid. Does not seem to specify that it's divine-only but even if it is, it means you can get good use from your divine Chameleon slots even when you guess wrong about what the day will bring. You can't take this until after Cleric 5 (so character level 6) but it's still pretty sweet.

Binder => 1 level (for Naberius); your voice is gravely but you heal ability damage very quickly, so say hello to Vile and Sanctified spells. Also you can take 10 on Bluff & Diplomacy, which is hella powerful.

Marshal => 1 level for Motivate Charisma if you want to be a Diplomancer.

Rogue => 1 or 2 or 3 levels, the Chameleon racial sub levels are great.

Ranger => 1 to 2 levels. The Chameleon's promiscuous spell list includes a bunch of Ranger spells that key off of Favored Enemy, so having one is nice.

=====

So some concrete combos would be:

- Cloistered Cleric 5 / Chameleon 10 (standard uber-caster)

- Cloistered Cleric 3 / Binder 1 / Marshal 1 / Chameleon 10 (sanctified liar -- er, diplomancer)

- Changeling Rogue 4 / Cloistered Cleric 1 / Chameleon 10 (street preacher)

- Cloistered Cleric 3 / Ranger 2 / Chameleon 10 (divine infiltrator)


EDIT: ... dang. While I was typing, I got Rogue'd.

[bekeleven]

I've always liked cloistered cleric into human paragon.

[Nifft]

Ooo, one more:

Cloistered Cleric 1 / Totemist 2 / Swordsage (unarmed) 2 / Chameleon 10 / Master of Nine 5

With delayed entry into Swordsage, you'll have IL 3 by class level 2, so you can pick a 2nd level Maneuver known (good picks are Mountain Hammer or Cloak of Deception; both will serve you well across many levels).

Your Domains are Knowledge, Trickery, and whatever domain gives you either Blind-Fight or Improved Initiative.

To qualify for Master of Nine, you need:
- One maneuver each in six different disciplines (which Swordsage can do at level 1)
- 10 ranks in 4 discipline skills (not a problem by level 15)
- Feats: Adaptive Style, Dodge, Blind-Fight, Improved Initiative, Improved Unarmed Strike

Unarmed Swordsage gets Improved Unarmed Strike free (yay), and you want Adaptive Style anyway because it's better than the Swordsage refresh mechanism.

Take Midnight Dodge (MoI) instead of Dodge, and use the Essentia for your soulmelds.

When you take Mo9 1 (at character level 16), you'll have an initiator level of 2 Swordsage + (13/2) non-IL + 1 Mo9 => initiator level 9, which is a good place to shop for maneuvers.

This is a very juicy bag of tricks, and it brings a lot of spellpower and non-spell utility to your build.

[Kaleph]

Basically, try to define the role and the modus operandi of your PC, and take as many dips as you want in oder to frontload you with goodies that you'll find useful later on.

I give you a list of obvious dips (they're so obvious that sone of them havs been already suggested).

- cloistered clerics to open the road to DMM and get as many feats as you can through domains.
- rogue for skills and SA (or feats).
- barbarian for pounce, and possibly improved trip at level 2.
- monk (including UA variants) for feats; if I recall correctly, you don't need to qualify for them.
- swordsage for manoeuvres / stances (and then you get the weapon enhancement that boosts your to hit when you're in a stance).

For the race, not only illumians may fit thematically to a chameleon, but with the naenhoon sigils they open up to DMM for arcane spells.

[danielxcutter]

Totemist and Incarnate are beautiful for a Chameleon entry:


Incarnum in general is front-loaded; which meshes well with the rear-loaded Chameleon

You have essentia, so you can use that floating feat for either Shape Soulmeld or an Incarnum feat that you need. This cranks up the versatility up a lot.

You can copy Open X Chakra from either the arcane or divine focus, allowing you access to chakra binds. Some are extremely good, such as Shedu Crown to the crown chakra(I'm not even talking about Mindsight; if you can't abuse 100 ft. range telepathy somehow you're not trying).


Take one and you have something to do before Chameleon casting really kicks in. Take both, and you have enough essentia to fill at least one soulmeld, and more soulmelds that you can choose from in the morning than most casters have spell slots. Rogue 1/Totemist 2/Incarnate 2 is quite solid.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Danielxcutter just gave my favorite entry, yeah. (Though using Binder instead of Rogue is an interesting idea, now that I think of it...) The basic issue is that Chameleon takes a few levels to really get going in terms of spellcasting punch, and you generally have a weak offense throughout, so you need your entry source to be strong enough to carry you through to ~Chameleon 3-5. You get bonus points if your entry continues to scale with total character level.

All of which is why I recommend Totemist 2+. If you can scrape up the extra essentia through feats, race, and early levels, your melds will continue to scale at almost full power, and Totemist gives you some PHENOMENAL offensive melds. Things like Sphinx Claws and Manticore Belt will be lethal pretty much 1-20. Incarnate melds aren't usually as strong, but they're still interesting and highly useful.

For a more conventional option, Pounce/Whirling Frenzy Barbarian with Extra Rage gives you a pretty solid combat chassis to work with, if you're looking at gishing it up. Craven means a Rogue dip continues to scale, at least a little bit. Factotum, I'd argue, is a poor choice-- combining two high-option-but-low-offense classes is not a recipe for fun.

[Zaq]

Binder/Incarnate. Hands down my favorite entry. Use City Slicker to get the relevant class skills. You get to completely shift your abilities along three separate axes every day. It's a ton of paperwork to do it right and not take up too much time at the table, but it is GLORIOUS when it works.

MADder than a hatter, though. I think I ended up with 14s and 15s across the board when I played that character. But that was still one of my favorite characters ever.

[danielxcutter]

Binder/Incarnate. Hands down my favorite entry. Use City Slicker to get the relevant class skills. You get to completely shift your abilities along three separate axes every day. It's a ton of paperwork to do it right and not take up too much time at the table, but it is GLORIOUS when it works.

MADder than a hatter, though. I think I ended up with 14s and 15s across the board when I played that character. But that was still one of my favorite characters ever.

Oh gods that's hilarious... what about power?

[Fouredged Sword]

I have had a lot of fun with a Duskblade 3/ rogue 2. Craven and and channeling with any arcane spell 1-6th level. The dusk blade channeling + sneak attack helps with your lack of offense at the early chameleon levels. Best rogue 1 / duskblade 3 / rogue 1 / chameleon 10. Finish with trapsmith for more casting.

[remetagross]

Being a Silverbrow Human gives Disguise as a class skill for all classes, which makes qualification easier.

[noob]

joke/cloistered Cleric all the way?
There is surely a way for that.
then take only one level in chameleon and then take again levels in cleric./joke

[ATHATH]

Binder 1/Bloodline X 3/Changeling Rogue 1

Pls no bloodline debates.

[denthor]

If your evil look at skulk. +10 to hide at starting level born. No level adjustments to pay off. Good even with a full run action.

[Lazymancer]

If you are not interested in combat efficiency, Martial Rogue 5 (UA 58) is quite good. Frankly, I'm not impressed with sneak attack (especially, when it doesn't progress), but this option allows to get 3 Fighter feats instead.

Also, Factotum isn't that bad (with flaws). It's mostly psychological problem of wanting that damned 8th level ability.

[Kaleph]

If you are not interested in combat efficiency, Martial Rogue 5 (UA 58) is quite good. Frankly, I'm not impressed with sneak attack (especially, when it doesn't progress), but this option allows to get 3 Fighter feats instead.

Also, Factotum isn't that bad (with flaws). It's mostly psychological problem of wanting that damned 8th level ability.

Martial rogue is indeed good - and for a psychological reason: trapfinding isn't that good to steer any player into playing a rogue, but at the end in many campaigns there's always someone taking it. With the chameleon, you turn it instead into some theurge gish, that really pays off in terms of power and flexibility.

Seconding what you've said, I'm not partial to SA and to any ability that requires some convoluted way to function, I prefer a basic option that fits many challenges, and an array of secondary, situational features that cover everything else. In this direction, I still propose illumian barbarian 2 cloistered cleric 1 feat rogue 2 chameleon x.

At level 7 you have enough feats (maybe getting EWP through an affiliation or similar trick) to wield a spiked chain, pile up improved trip, leap attack and shock trooper, plus already extend / persist spell to boot. At that point, though, I'd probably still keep the melee focus, and switch to divine and arcane at level 8/9.

[DEMON]

Martial rogue is indeed good - and for a psychological reason: trapfinding isn't that good to steer any player into playing a rogue, but at the end in many campaigns there's always someone taking it. With the chameleon, you turn it instead into some theurge gish, that really pays off in terms of power and flexibility.

Seconding what you've said, I'm not partial to SA and to any ability that requires some convoluted way to function, I prefer a basic option that fits many challenges, and an array of secondary, situational features that cover everything else. In this direction, I still propose illumian barbarian 2 cloistered cleric 1 feat rogue 2 chameleon x.

At level 7 you have enough feats (maybe getting EWP through an affiliation or similar trick) to wield a spiked chain, pile up improved trip, leap attack and shock trooper, plus already extend / persist spell to boot. At that point, though, I'd probably still keep the melee focus, and switch to divine and arcane at level 8/9.

A Changeling Rogue can ditch trapfinding for a slew of social skill masteries (with some extra goodies).

That said, friends don't let friends take 5 levels of feat Rogue... that last level is pretty much empty.

Cloistered Cleric/Barbie/SA HnRT Fighter/Warblade are all better options for that 5th level spot. You could also go Feat Rogue 2 and dip up to 3 classes.

[Lazymancer]

A Changeling Rogue can ditch trapfinding for a slew of social skill masteries (with some extra goodies).

That said, friends don't let friends take 5 levels of feat Rogue... that last level is pretty much empty.
Pardon. I forgot we houseruled that bit - made bonus feats coincide with the levels sneak attack would've been given.

[Gruftzwerg]

warlocks make good chameleons too.
In downtimes you can use the floating feat to either craft or Raise Dead with Extra Invocation. On adventures you switch it out for a more combat fitting invocation.
Warlocks 24 buffs and at-will abilities are good tools for chameleons imho.

[danielxcutter]

warlocks make good chameleons too.
In downtimes you can use the floating feat to either craft or Raise Dead with Extra Invocation. On adventures you switch it out for a more combat fitting invocation.
Warlocks 24 buffs and at-will abilities are good tools for chameleons imho.

You're not wrong, but if you do go this way, Practiced Spellcaster to bump up your Eldritch Blast is advised.

[Gruftzwerg]

You're not wrong, but if you do go this way, Practiced Spellcaster to bump up your Eldritch Blast is advised.

Only works with DM fiat: Since by RAW Eldritch Blast dmg is "warlock lvl" (incl. PRC spell progression) related and not "warlock caster lvl", Practiced Spellcaster doesn't do anything for warlocks. (unless DM houserules it).

edit: added spell progression to clarify further.

[danielxcutter]

Only works with DM fiat: Since by RAW Eldritch Blast dmg is "warlock lvl" related and not "warlock caster lvl", Practiced Spellcaster doesn't do anything for warlocks. (unless DM houserules it)

The Warlock Handbook does include a FAQ which rules that Practiced Spellcaster works, but I admit that it isn't RAW; and thus nobody is required to use it. If the DM rules that way, though...

[Gruftzwerg]

The Warlock Handbook does include a FAQ which rules that Practiced Spellcaster works, but I admit that it isn't RAW; and thus nobody is required to use it. If the DM rules that way, though...

It just mentions that it possibly wouldn't break the game to rule it that way or give warlocks an altered version. But still not an actual rule. Just mentioning a possible houserule and thus relying on DM fiat.

[danielxcutter]

It just mentions that it possibly wouldn't break the game to rule it that way or give warlocks an altered version. But still not an actual rule. Just mentioning a possible houserule and thus relying on DM fiat.

M'kay. I guess you're right.

[Soranar]

Ok, after some consideration here's my thoughts on all the suggestions

Factotum: Definitely not the best option though it works if only to supply the requirements, it doesn't provide enough oomph until Chameleon starts to shine

Spellthief: Same as above

Wildshaper ranger: Ok at first but simply using alter self and polymorph can provide fighting forms eventually

Rogue: Not bad, the social rogue substitution level for changelings is awesome. I would ignore the feat rogue idea simply because sneak attack works well with spells (especially when you have access to all spells).

A changeling rogue dip is quite good at level 1.


Barbarian: Pounce for very little investment. Can also trade rage for rapid shot and improved trip if I'm willing to take the right ACF. 1 or 2 levels max

Marshal: Again a dip can be pretty good, going all the way for a 2nd minor aura might be worth it (motivate DEX until you need to motivate CHA maybe?)

Crusader: Good recovery method. Might be ideal to dip warblade just to make an idiot crusader built around insightful strike. It's very easy to optimize skill checks when you have access to all spells and it completely ignores your physical abilities... might be worth optimizing this strategy.

Warblade: some synergy with INT but I prefer the crusader recovery method.

Totemist : with a 2 level dip you get +1 essentia, another +1 from a feat and +4 from levels. That's potentially 6 volley attacks through manticore belt or such. Not great for sphinx claws since you normally lack innate natural weapons as a human to abuse through sphinx claws. Wisdom archery might alleviate some of your MADness too.

Binder: good to great support with improved binder. You can only get 2 binds by level 8 though (which brings back the whole factotum/spellthief issue) but just getting a 2nd ability ain't bad

Warlock : taking 10 on UMD is great but a chameleon has access to every spell anyway, simply not necessary

Cloistered Cleric: Great at first then mostly redundant, debatable choice though turn undead is definitely nice


Maybe a paladin of tyranny or an hexblade entry could boost my spellcasting since they lower saves.

So far the best options I see are this

A insightful strike optimization

Undead Marshal 1 (motivate charisma) , Warblade 1, Changeling rogue 1, Sneak attack Hit and run fighter 1, idiot crusader 1

you have an initiator level of 3 by level 5
at level 9 you take insightful strike. Being undead your concentration checks are keyed off CHA, with motivate CHA you get CHA to damage x2 and you can use many ways to take 10, 12 or even 15 on concentration checks
by level 15 you get greater insightful strike (if I counted right)

or

Decisive strike monk 1, Paladin of tyranny 4 for an AoO build with buffs

or

sneak attack optimization (spellthief 1, sneak attack fighter 1,rogue 1, ninja 1, rokugan ninja 1)

or

an archery ranger build instead of wildshape. Trade the useless animal companion for an urban companion (familiar + basically) and use it mostly for the chassis

or

make a Iaijutsu focus build (maybe using human paragon)

or

binder 5 has some merit to be honest

[Zaq]

Oh gods that's hilarious... what about power?

It's passable. I'd call it high T4 before you get hardcore Chameleon spellcasting mojo (and even then, you're behind on spell levels, so you're never going to be a Wizard). It definitely encourages creative problem solving, and it's a lot of fun fitting the pieces together to see just what you can pretend to be. In the campaign where I actually played as one of these things, I was fairly consistently among the most useful folks in the party (behind the Druid, but what else is new)—but aside from the Druid, we didn't have too many high-op characters, so there's some skew there.

Absolute blast and a half to play, though. Especially if you don't tell the party what your deal is. One day you're a "Wizard" with a familiar (Soulspark Familiar), wreathed in flame (Aym, Mantle of Flame) and throwing around energy damage with reckless abandon (Lightning Gauntlets), possibly even making good arcane-based skill checks if you have room for the Mage's Spectacles. The next day you're a "Cleric" stomping around in full plate (from your buddy Savnok, so you didn't have that full plate yesterday—though in your version of events, you've had it the whole time, and you don't know what they're going on about) and passing out blessings (Lucky Dice) and healing (Lifebond Vestments). But the day after that you're a "Ranger" making all kinds of awesome shots with a bow (Leraje, Bluesteel Bracers, Chaotic Incarnate Avatar if your GM lets you not look like a slaad while doing it). And so on. And that's before you even add in Chameleon, though the respective focus to use is always pretty obvious.

[danielxcutter]

That sounds like a very good build; not enough power to flat out break the game without trying, but incredibly fun to play. Such builds are very hard to make...

[Thurbane]

-Spellthief 8 = boosted caster level through master spellthief (and it's a significant boost)

Unfortunately I don't think Master Spellthief works with Chameleon, for the same reasons that you can't use "+1 caster level" PrCs to advancer Chameleon "casting".

If I understand correctly, Arcane/Divine focus Chameleon don't let Chameleon count as a spellcasting class as such.

[Grod_The_Giant]

The problem with suggestions like Marshal is that Chameleons are already slightly MAD, requiring both Int and Wis for your casting, plus any physical ability scores. Your Cha is almost certainly going to be low.

[Fouredged Sword]

Well, sorta. A chameleon can SUPER boost a single stat fairly easily and your ability focus can heavily offset the MAD. The idea would be to make charisma play double duty for skills you want so you can put an emphasis on charisma rather than, say, dex, and still be able to sneak around.

I know chameleon is a class all about flexibility, but I have always found it most powerful when you ignore that for the most part and focus on one or two of the ability sets and just run with that and only use the other sets as needed.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Well, sorta. A chameleon can SUPER boost a single stat fairly easily and your ability focus can heavily offset the MAD. The idea would be to make charisma play double duty for skills you want so you can put an emphasis on charisma rather than, say, dex, and still be able to sneak around.

I know chameleon is a class all about flexibility, but I have always found it most powerful when you ignore that for the most part and focus on one or two of the ability sets and just run with that and only use the other sets as needed.
If you just want the skill boost, I'd say go Factotum 3 instead of Marshal 3. Brains Over Brawn affects three stats at all times, rather than choosing between one or two like Marshal makes you do, and it has better synergy with Arcane Focus.

[Nifft]

The problem with suggestions like Marshal is that Chameleons are already slightly MAD, requiring both Int and Wis for your casting, plus any physical ability scores. Your Cha is almost certainly going to be low.

At low levels, what Marshal does is give you access to all armor and martial weapons, and the minor aura's Charisma bonus stacks with the free Skill Focus (Diplomacy) for a decent Diplomacy bonus. It's not game-breaking (yet) even if you only give yourself another +2 to all charisma checks.

Marshal also gives you Bluff and Sense Motive as class skills -- so you can do something clever like play a Silverbrow human and not take the Trickery domain.

At high levels, you'll have access to a lot of buffs & boosts to your Charisma score, and the minor aura doubles the effect of those buffs & boosts. This means you may be one of the best demon-binders in the game. You can do great and terrible things with extract gift, and not only do you get to dominate demons with your ego, you also get caster level 20 at character level 15, which means the juiciest bonuses are available 5 levels early.


Physical ability scores? A Chameleon generally gets access to alter self at level 1, so you can dump Str and Dex yet still be combat-relevant (part-time).

Plus, if you go this route, you're doing it because you want to be a Diplomancer. That means you have the option to solve some encounters through dice-enforced friendship.


EDIT:

If you just want the skill boost, I'd say go Factotum 3 instead of Marshal 3. Brains Over Brawn affects three stats at all times, rather than choosing between one or two like Marshal makes you do, and it has better synergy with Arcane Focus.



Brains over Brawn (Ex): At 3rd level, you gain your Intelligence bonus as a modifier on Strength checks, Dexterity checks, and checks involving skills based on Strength or Dexterity, such as Hide, Climb, and Jump.


IMHO those checks are far less valuable than doubling every Charisma buff (on a Diplomancer build).

Hide, Climb, and Jump can be replaced with low-level spells.

[Grod_The_Giant]

At low levels, what Marshal does is give you access to all armor and martial weapons, and the minor aura's Charisma bonus stacks with the free Skill Focus (Diplomacy) for a decent Diplomacy bonus. It's not game-breaking (yet) even if you only give yourself another +2 to all charisma checks.

Marshal also gives you Bluff and Sense Motive as class skills -- so you can do something clever like play a Silverbrow human and not take the Trickery domain.

At high levels, you'll have access to a lot of buffs & boosts to your Charisma score, and the minor aura doubles the effect of those buffs & boosts. This means you may be one of the best demon-binders in the game. You can do great and terrible things with extract gift, and not only do you get to dominate demons with your ego, you also get caster level 20 at character level 15, which means the juiciest bonuses are available 5 levels early.


Physical ability scores? A Chameleon generally gets access to alter self at level 1, so you can dump Str and Dex yet still be combat-relevant (part-time).

Plus, if you go this route, you're doing it because you want to be a Diplomancer. That means you have the option to solve some encounters through dice-enforced friendship.


EDIT:




IMHO those checks are far less valuable than doubling every Charisma buff (on a Diplomancer build).

Hide, Climb, and Jump can be replaced with low-level spells.
On a Diplomancer build, sure, Marshal 1 is great. I just question that Chameleon is the right path to travel for that. Also...

You retain your own ability scores. Your class and level, hit points, alignment, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses all remain the same. You retain all supernatural and spell-like special attacks and qualities of your normal form, except for those requiring a body part that the new form does not have (such as a mouth for a breath weapon or eyes for a gaze attack).
Emphasis mine.

[Nifft]

On a Diplomancer build, sure, Marshal 1 is great. I just question that Chameleon is the right path to travel for that. Also... It's one valid path. Makes really good use of everything Naberius can offer, for example.

Optimizing requires a goal -- there is no single "best Chameleon".


Emphasis mine. Huh. I wonder why I've been doing that wrong for so long.

Anyway, thanks for the correction.

[bekeleven]

Unfortunately I don't think Master Spellthief works with Chameleon, for the same reasons that you can't use "+1 caster level" PrCs to advancer Chameleon "casting".

If I understand correctly, Arcane/Divine focus Chameleon don't let Chameleon count as a spellcasting class as such.Chameleons are a casting class, they just can't use casting (among many other class features) to qualify for anything. This means they can benefit from master spellthief so long as they can cast second-level spells from another source.

[Fouredged Sword]

See, I have seen a Factotum 3 / Marshal 2 / chameleon 10 who did a Int/Cha/Dex hybrid who was really fun looking.

[Soranar]

Unfortunately I don't think Master Spellthief works with Chameleon, for the same reasons that you can't use "+1 caster level" PrCs to advancer Chameleon "casting".

If I understand correctly, Arcane/Divine focus Chameleon don't let Chameleon count as a spellcasting class as such.

That's why I said you need to be a spellthief level 8. You qualify for the feat through your own spellthief spellcasting


And the feat is worded weirdly enough to work with the arcane side of a chameleon due to this

Your spellthief and arcane spellcaster levels also stack when determining your caster level for all arcane spells

And yeah I agree that marshal is hard to use due to the inherent Madness but I find the aura to be far superior to the factotum ability since that only pumps the Factotum's stuff while the aura affects everyone. + CHA to initiative/ hide and move silently is a big deal when it applies to all party members within 60 ft instead of just you.

[Lazymancer]

sneak attack works well with spells (especially when you have access to all spells).
Is that your opinion or experience?

In my experience sneak attacks with spells are quite hard to consistently benefit from and don't have enough of an impact.

1) Sneak attack doesn't work on many creatures.
2) Sneak attack must be made within sufficiently close range.
3) Sneak attack with spells doesn't deal ability damage nor level drain.
4) Sneak attack with spells works only on the first target.

You also need to have level-appropriate amount of sneak damage. +10d6 from Factotum remains noticeable for some time, but +3d6 doesn't do much once you get close to level 10.

[Thurbane]

You also need to have level-appropriate amount of sneak damage. +10d6 from Factotum remains noticeable for some time, but +3d6 doesn't do much once you get close to level 10.

That's if you go by the reading that Factotum can ever do more than 1d6 Sneak Attack with Cunning Strike.

That's a can of worms in itself, debated to death and back around the time Dungeonscape came out. I'm not going into it, because I don't think I ever saw one side successfully convince the other of their stance.

FWIW, I think that Sneak Attack with spells can be very effective (though somewhat situational):
- It's usually a touch attack.
- It will generally do a specific kind of energy damage, which may be helpful in the case of elemental vulnerabilities or high DR.

[Fouredged Sword]

The reason a lot of people like to have a dip of sneak attack in their build is because of the Craven feat. 10d6 sneak attack does about 35 damage. 1d6 sneak attack and craven does 23.5 damage, so about 2/3rds of an unaugmented rogue's sneak attack damage.

[Soranar]

Is that your opinion or experience?
1) Sneak attack doesn't work on many creatures.
2) Sneak attack must be made within sufficiently close range.
3) Sneak attack with spells doesn't deal ability damage nor level drain.
4) Sneak attack with spells works only on the first target.


1 : with access to golem strike and grave strike you can use it against a fairly wide array of enemies, if you take the rogue ACF it works against anything you flank (usually use a thunderlance spell to ''melee'')

2: again you have access to sniper's shot

3: no it just kills. the point isn't to battlefield control it's to do damage

4: it only works with the first target of each spell. Cloud of knives gives you a free attack every round. Spells like thunderlance give you iteratives but long attacks are usually a single touch attack

So far I've only used 1 sneak attack caster build and it was a psychic rogue usiing dual dorje of crystal shard to deal damage. Because touch attacks are basically auto hit it worked pretty well compared to a normal sneak attack build. You hit so much more reliably and your base damage tends to be higher than a bow when you attack at range.

I'm not sure it's worth the investment in a chameleon build but having access to every divine and arcane spell means hunter's eye, sniper's shot, touch attack spells, cloud of knives, grease, greater invisibility, etc. Basically everything you need to function and triicks when sneak attack doesn't work.

[danielxcutter]

1 : with access to golem strike and grave strike you can use it against a fairly wide array of enemies, if you take the rogue ACF it works against anything you flank (usually use a thunderlance spell to ''melee'')

2: again you have access to sniper's shot

3: no it just kills. the point isn't to battlefield control it's to do damage

4: it only works with the first target of each spell. Cloud of knives gives you a free attack every round. Spells like thunderlance give you iteratives but long attacks are usually a single touch attack

So far I've only used 1 sneak attack caster build and it was a psychic rogue usiing dual dorje of crystal shard to deal damage. Because touch attacks are basically auto hit it worked pretty well compared to a normal sneak attack build. You hit so much more reliably and your base damage tends to be higher than a bow when you attack at range.

I'm not sure it's worth the investment in a chameleon build but having access to every divine and arcane spell means hunter's eye, sniper's shot, touch attack spells, cloud of knives, grease, greater invisibility, etc. Basically everything you need to function and triicks when sneak attack doesn't work.

This is also why Chameleons make excellent archers. The archery/ranged combat-friendly spells are spread out across not only multiple classes, but both arcane and divine lists. A Chameleon, however, is able of using most of them, especially after you can get both foci at once.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Almost forgot; did anyone call out Duskblade? Duskblade 2 is pretty nice to throw in there. Lots of fun options to channel.

[DEMON]

Almost forgot; did anyone call out Duskblade? Duskblade 2 is pretty nice to throw in there. Lots of fun options to channel.

You mean Duskblade 3.

Fouredged Sword suggeseted Dusky 3 / Rog 2 entry.

[Gildedragon]

I'm partial to Factotum 3/Binder1/SSage2 it delays chameleon by one level but it gives one a fair few goodies. Int and Wis (both high scores, probably) to AC, Int and Dex to damage, and sundry vestiges.

[Lazymancer]

1 : with access to golem strike and grave strike you can use it against a fairly wide array of enemies, if you take the rogue ACF it works against anything you flank (usually use a thunderlance spell to ''melee'')

2: again you have access to sniper's shot

3: no it just kills. the point isn't to battlefield control it's to do damage

4: it only works with the first target of each spell. Cloud of knives gives you a free attack every round. Spells like thunderlance give you iteratives but long attacks are usually a single touch attack
You don't have many spells until Chameleon 7 (about ~2 spells per combat). Burning spell to deliver +3d6 bonus damage is suboptimal, to say the least. It would make sense to spend spells on Factotum alpha-striking with +12d6 damage, but with Rogue SA you don't do enough damage (especially with ability/drain attacks, since two different areas are damaged) to justify this - spells have other uses (especially if you can take them from Trapsmith spell list). So you'll have to stick to the wands and it's a question if you'll need to UMD them.

Additionally, there will be less obvious limitations, like action economy (you are not persisting cloud of knives) or dissipation of charge for touch spells.

You can make sneak attack work, but you'll need to invest just as much as rogue - and you'll be getting less of a bang for buck. I.e. you are not playing to your strengths.