Erfworld Thread X: A Series of Unfortunate Cliffhangers

[TheWombatOfDoom]

Erfworld (www.erfworld.com) is an online comic about a table top gamer named Parson Gotti that is summoned from our world to the world of Erf, a world based on its own rules that function similarly to a table top game. This makes Parson, very experienced in gaming, becomes a valuable player in a game that may very well threaten his life. Does he want to go back to his own world at all, or is this world the perfect place for a gamer such as himself? Is he really dreaming? Will he be there forever? Who knows! What we DO know is that in this world, the pieces are living things, and the stakes cannot be higher. Join Parson on this wild ride filled with real world (or to the Erfworlders - Stupid World) references and puns, gaming homages and glory, fate and chance.

Previous incarnations:
GitP: Erfworld Forum section (Locked) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=47)
Erfworld thread I (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=178724)
Erfworld thread II: Finally thinking with portals, over a year later (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=268156)
Erfworld thread III: As the Erf Turns (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=313967)
Erfworld thread IV: In Memory of King Saline (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?374757-Erfworld-thread-IV-In-memory-of-King-Saline)
Erfworld thread V: Baddie Will Not Post In Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?416285-Erfworld-thread-V-Baddie-Will-Not-Post-In-Thread)
Erfworld Thread VI: +10 vs Fat Guys From Ohio (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?461437-Erfworld-Thread-VI-10-vs-Fat-Guys-From-Ohio)
Erfworld Thread VII: No Consensus, Left Unsealed (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?480954-Erfworld-Thread-VII-No-Consensus-Left-Unsealed)
Erfworld Thread VIII: VIIInnie, VIIIdi, VIIIci (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?495031-Erfworld-Thread-VIII-VIIInnie-VIIIdi-VIIIci)
Erfworld Thread IX: By the Flower and Gray Skull (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?510568-Erfworld-Thread-IX-By-the-Flower-and-Gray-Skull)

Currently we are on page 269 of Book 3.

Also, please SPOILER your comments for the first three posts about an update that has occurred.

[Welf]

I felt artsy today.

http://i.imgur.com/AC8vzeP.png

[DigoDragon]

If they go that route, it needs to be with a "Status Revok-ed" sound effect.

Yes, I do agree that would be the way to go. :3


Charlie can see through that little action figure in the minecart, right? Wonder what he thinks of Isaac.

[stsasser]

Will any be resolved before 'Erfworld Thread XI: ?" ?

[-D-]

Will any be resolved before 'Erfworld Thread XI: ?" ?
Sadly, only god knows that. I'm pretty sure Rob is as confused as we are :smalltongue:

[Cazero]

Charlie can see through that little action figure in the minecart, right? Wonder what he thinks of Isaac.
It's very likely that Isaac "killed" it at some point. Possibly at the same time he killed the archons.

[DigoDragon]

It's very likely that Isaac "killed" it at some point. Possibly at the same time he killed the archons.

Hmm, I suppose that's possible, but I would like to get confirmation. Maybe Isaac wants Charlie to "see his handiwork" from the temple collapse. Shake up the guy and scare him into making a mistake.

[eschmenk]

It's very likely that Isaac "killed" it at some point. Possibly at the same time he killed the archons.

That makes sense, but whether or not he did, Charlie suffered a major setback and presumably will be reacting very badly as a result. The thought of loosing Tondy was enough to make him cry earlier, and now she's gone. Even if he doesn't know about Isaac, he probably suspects that his attack on the GMs didn't stop them somehow. He might even worry that he's got some unknown powerful enemy. Knowing that it was Isaac might actually help Charlie narrow his focus.

[halfeye]

Tondy is a huge loss to Charlie, and potentially a huge gain for GK if she can be decrypted, but for that Wanda would need the pliers, and that means getting to a useable portal.

[DigoDragon]

I'm expecting Charlie to "use the nuclear option" and outright obliterate the MK with some kind of secret weapon. We know he can replicate explosives. Portal in a bomb that will shatter the portal and cause a chain reaction at the park?

[eschmenk]

We know he can replicate explosives.
Do we know Charlie can do that? I thought Ivan was required to make explosives.

[DigoDragon]

Do we know Charlie can do that? I thought Ivan was required to make explosives.

I would be surprised if he didn't have a stockpile. Charlie's got guns piled up in places around the tower, including a rocket launcher which went to fun use. :smallbiggrin:

[Anteros]

It's very likely that Isaac "killed" it at some point. Possibly at the same time he killed the archons.

I kinda doubt it. Despite it making perfect sense to kill it, nothing important ever happens off-panel or is implied to happen. It would have gotten its own update.

[eschmenk]

I kinda doubt it. Despite it making perfect sense to kill it, nothing important ever happens off-panel or is implied to happen. It would have gotten its own update.

I wouldn't go that far. We weren't shown Parson and Caesar working out their gems-in-trust plan, which I think could turn out to be important. Nor did we see what sort of agreement was reached between Isaac and Wanda and Claud nor if they joined Isaac an in the same way that Ivan did. And no, croaking the doll probably wouldn't get its own update. It could have been handled easily by adding an eighth string to the seven Archon strings that Isaac cut and maybe adding another little yarn doll to that image on page 264. If Isaac croaked it a little later, it would have needed just one or two panels at most.

Since the number of strings cut corresponded exactly to the number of Archons, I doubt Isaac cut the doll's string, at least not initially. Logically, even if Isaac didn't find out some other way, Isaac would probably have needed to be warned to not step in the tar and would probably notice the doll while trying to avoid doing so, but by that point it would probably already be too late to keep Charlie from finding out about Isaac.

[Anteros]

I wouldn't go that far. We weren't shown Parson and Caesar working out their gems-in-trust plan, which I think could turn out to be important. Nor did we see what sort of agreement was reached between Isaac and Wanda and Claud nor if they joined Isaac an in the same way that Ivan did. And no, croaking the doll probably wouldn't get its own update. It could have been handled easily by adding an eighth string to the seven Archon strings that Isaac cut and maybe adding another little yarn doll to that image on page 264. If Isaac croaked it a little later, it would have needed just one or two panels at most.

Since the number of strings corresponded exactly to the number of Archons, I doubt Isaac cut the doll's string, at least not initially. Logically, even if Isaac didn't find out some other way, Isaac would probably have needed to be warned to not step in the tar and would probably notice the doll while trying to avoid doing so, but by that point it would probably already be too late to keep Charlie from finding out about Isaac.

You're assuming that most of those things don't still have an update coming. We'll definitely get updates about at least some of that stuff in much more depth.

[halfeye]

I wonder whether Charlie would be ready to pay to get a decrypted Tondy back?

[DataNinja]

I wonder whether Charlie would be ready to pay to get a decrypted Tondy back?

I mean, he was ready to pay for Lilith, so, I'd probably say yes. The bigger question, I'd say, is if that did happen, whether he'd be willing to attempt to tear her apart like Lilith.

[eschmenk]

You're assuming that most of those things don't still have an update coming. We'll definitely get updates about at least some of that stuff in much more depth.

Please be careful of what you are accusing me of assuming. I actually do think that we will probably find out more about the trust arrangement and about what is going between Wanda and Isaac and maybe Claud and Isaac. Still, I doubt that we will retroactively see the actual negotiations and planning take place between Parson and Caesar, for example. We'll probably just find out what the results were later. If that strategy is important, the negotiations and any planning for it were also important, but were skipped. Yes, that's a narrow point, but I was specifically addressing what you had said earlier.

I'll also note that you seemed to ignore the possibility that we would find out about something later. Specifically, you apparently concluded that Isaac probably hadn't killed the doll already because we hadn't seen it happen yet. You seem to have thougth it was unlikely that we would find out later that it had been killed. Personally, IDK, but I wouldn't rule that out. Your accusation seems a bit ironic in light of that, though.

I acknowledge that at one my sentences, "We weren't shown Parson and Caesar working out their gems-in-trust plan, which I think could turn out to be important," could be interpreted two different ways. I had meant that the negotiations could turn out to be important, but it could have been read as me saying that I expected the plan to be important, but that second interpretation is the worse interpretation. It would probably have been a mistake for me to have assumed that we wouldn't find out more about the plan, so I probably wasn't talking about the plan itself. Please don't jump to the conclusion that I made such a mistake.

[guttering flame]

In page 165, Ivan warns Wanda not to load guns into the cart in case the doll steals one and shoots them.

[Anteros]

Please be careful of what you are accusing me of assuming. I actually do think that we will probably find out more about the trust arrangement and about what is going between Wanda and Isaac and maybe Claud and Isaac. Still, I doubt that we will retroactively see the actual negotiations and planning take place between Parson and Caesar, for example. We'll probably just find out what the results were later. If that strategy is important, the negotiations and any planning for it were also important, but were skipped. Yes, that's a narrow point, but I was specifically addressing what you had said earlier.

I'll also note that you seemed to ignore the possibility that we would find out about something later. Specifically, you apparently concluded that Isaac probably hadn't killed the doll already because we hadn't seen it happen yet. You seem to have thougth it was unlikely that we would find out later that it had been killed. Personally, IDK, but I wouldn't rule that out. Your accusation seems a bit ironic in light of that, though.

I acknowledge that at one my sentences, "We weren't shown Parson and Caesar working out their gems-in-trust plan, which I think could turn out to be important," could be interpreted two different ways. I had meant that the negotiations could turn out to be important, but it could have been read as me saying that I expected the plan to be important, but that second interpretation is the worse interpretation. It would probably have been a mistake for me to have assumed that we wouldn't find out more about the plan, so I probably wasn't talking about the plan itself. Please don't jump to the conclusion that I made such a mistake.

I feel like you're more concerned with picking at my words and starting an argument than the comments themselves here. Quit being pedantic and nit-picking.

[eschmenk]

I feel like you're more concerned with picking at my words and starting an argument than the comments themselves here. Quit being pedantic and nit-picking.

What else was there to address? Your previous comment contained only two sentences. One was an accusation that I had supposedly assumed something and the other merely stated something obvious as if I didn't already know it. There was nothing decent about the comic itself for me to respond to. I have been going out of my way to avoid wording things in ways that would seem too argumentative. From my point of view, it seems that you're the one who is being rather rude and provoking arguments, not me.

As far your implied accusation that I was being "pedantic and nit-picking," you had said earlier, "...nothing important ever happens off-panel or is implied to happen." Yet, on the current page, a couple of important things are implied to have happened, but we didn't see them. It's hardly nit-picking to point out that something you said never happens happened twice on the current page.

[Anteros]

What else was there to address? Your previous comment contained only two sentences. One was an accusation that I had supposedly assumed something and the other merely stated something obvious as if I didn't already know it. There was nothing decent about the comic itself for me to respond to. I have been going out of my way to avoid wording things in ways that would seem too argumentative. From my point of view, it seems that you're the one who is being rather rude and provoking arguments, not me.

As far your implied accusation that I was being "pedantic and nit-picking," you had said earlier, "...nothing important ever happens off-panel or is implied to happen." Yet, on the current page, a couple of important things are implied to have happened, but we didn't see them. It's hardly nit-picking to point out that something you said never happens happened twice on the current page.

I'm tired of arguing with you. I'm sorry if I offended you, but I don't have any interest in continuing this argument.

[Zalabim]

New Page (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/270)
So Claude makes golems in the MK, sends them through CC's broken base portal, GK pays a 500K gem for invading CC, the golem trips one or more traps and CC pays 5M for each hit. Ivan knows where the traps are, Big Think read Parson's notes, and figured out how to give their casters enough juice to keep up the assault. I assume Roger was supposed to call Ivan and tell him when they're ready to go forward with the plan.

This reveal also voids the unspoken plan warranty.

[DigoDragon]

New Page (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/270)
So Claude makes golems in the MK, sends them through CC's broken base portal, GK pays a 500K gem for invading CC, the golem trips one or more traps and CC pays 5M for each hit. Ivan knows where the traps are, Big Think read Parson's notes, and figured out how to give their casters enough juice to keep up the assault. I assume Roger was supposed to call Ivan and tell him when they're ready to go forward with the plan.

This reveal also voids the unspoken plan warranty.

Wow that's complex juggling of contractual elements to make everything even out. Parson should be a lawyer by the time he's done with Erfworld. :smalltongue:

[eschmenk]

New Page (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/270)
So Claude makes golems in the MK, sends them through CC's broken base portal, GK pays a 500K gem for invading CC, the golem trips one or more traps and CC pays 5M for each hit. Ivan knows where the traps are, Big Think read Parson's notes, and figured out how to give their casters enough juice to keep up the assault. I assume Roger was supposed to call Ivan and tell him when they're ready to go forward with the plan.

This reveal also voids the unspoken plan warranty.

I don't think Parson has contacted Isaac or learned anything about him (or the other things going on under the MK) since the time Isaac merely said, "Deiform." My interpretation is that Parson is expecting to contact Ivan via Roger and explain this gambit to him for the first time. I don't expect Parson to wind up going ahead with the gambit--I think it will wind up being hijacked by Isaac.

[Doran]

So I was wrong then - they aren't gems containing magic juice, but 500K gems.

I wonder if each major gem amount has a different size?

Like charlie has a few enormous 100 million gems in his account. I wonder who the moneymancer is Charlie uses to make them? Maybe some kind of secret signamancy contract to go along with it.

[halfeye]

Wow that's complex juggling of contractual elements to make everything even out. Parson should be a lawyer by the time he's done with Erfworld. :smalltongue:

Parson is about to (hopefully, if Roger doesn't try to kill Ivan and Claude without talking or otherwise mess up communications) find out that Charlie already thought of all of that, and Parson is just getting up to speed with what Charlie was thinking when the contract was written.



So I was wrong then - they aren't gems containing magic juice, but 500K gems.

I wonder if each major gem amount has a different size?

Like charlie has a few enormous 100 million gems in his account. I wonder who the moneymancer is Charlie uses to make them? Maybe some kind of secret signamancy contract to go along with it.


I don't remember Charlie having big 100 m gems, I remember him having 600+ million schmuckers worth of gems, which might be big ones, but it could equally be lots and lots of small ones (but it's perfectly possible I forgot).

[Doran]

I wonder if you could make regenerating gem golems that use up bits of themselves for healing?

Maybe a dirtamancer/moneymancer link, since a dirtamancer can heal his golems.

[Jasdoif]

I wonder if you could make regenerating gem golems that use up bits of themselves for healing?

Maybe a dirtamancer/moneymancer link, since a dirtamancer can heal his golems.Some sort of "restore hits at the cost of max hits" special?

[Doran]

Some sort of "restore hits at the cost of max hits" special?

More like the golem has its own personal huge purse, which means it pays it's own upkeep, but it can also heal itself, at the cost of the gems downgrading over time.

Should a caster have a bonus against units made by the same type of caster? Turn/rebuke undead for a croakamancer for example.

[Anteros]

More like the golem has its own personal huge purse, which means it pays it's own upkeep, but it can also heal itself, at the cost of the gems downgrading over time.

Should a caster have a bonus against units made by the same type of caster? Turn/rebuke undead for a croakamancer for example.

Sounds pretty expensive considering how ridiculously expensive gems are. You'd be looking at what? A few million a unit? Better be a darn good unit. Also, other sides would probably just capture them for profit.

[Doran]

Yes, might work better if you always lead it.

I wonder if a dollamancer can make animated suits of armour? So it's simultaneously an enhancement magic item and a golem? That way if you get incapped during a battle it can autopilot you back for healing? Or if you die it can keep fighting and send you back for uncroaking/decryption.

[Zalabim]

I don't think Parson has contacted Isaac or learned anything about him (or the other things going on under the MK) since the time Isaac merely said, "Deiform." My interpretation is that Parson is expecting to contact Ivan via Roger and explain this gambit to him for the first time. I don't expect Parson to wind up going ahead with the gambit--I think it will wind up being hijacked by Isaac.
Well, now that the plan's been revealed, of course it won't go off like this. But I do recall that Isaac has read Parson's book somehow.


So I was wrong then - they aren't gems containing magic juice, but 500K gems.

I wonder if each major gem amount has a different size?

Like charlie has a few enormous 100 million gems in his account. I wonder who the moneymancer is Charlie uses to make them? Maybe some kind of secret signamancy contract to go along with it.

It's probably easier to just only have each moneymancer convert a certain amount to gems, possibly spaced at different times, so that none of them ever even know how much his treasury could really be.

It's also possible that all those gems are just part of his payments from a long time in business and he's never used a moneymancer for himself at all. Just to be extra sure.

[eschmenk]

Well, now that the plan's been revealed, of course it won't go off like this. But I do recall that Isaac has read Parson's book somehow.

Yes, it's just that Parson wouldn't know that Isaac had read it. The idea is something that Parson thought of recently in TV (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book+3/247), so he wouldn't have had a chance to show it to Isaac. I assume Isaac used some advanced Lookamancy to read it. The notebook doesn't seem to be the lookamancy-proof one that Parson got from Janis (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book+3/82).

Actually, as far as we know, the gambit involving the gems and the Iron Man tank could even be two separate plans and maybe Isaac only knows about the tank one.

[Doran]

It's also possible that all those gems are just part of his payments from a long time in business and he's never used a moneymancer for himself at all. Just to be extra sure

Good point - he could always have an archon squad carry hats, and have gem payments at a small discount to direct treasury transfer.

If he also gave out banking loans that would also provide a way to recycle money into gems.

[-D-]

Yes, it's just that Parson wouldn't know that Isaac had read it. The idea is something that Parson thought of recently in TV (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book+3/247), so he wouldn't have had a chance to show it to Isaac. I assume Isaac used some advanced Lookamancy to read it. The notebook doesn't seem to be the lookamancy-proof one that Parson got from Janis (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book+3/82).

Pretty sure it's the same thing. Flower Journal is 247 and flower journal is what they used.

I think DeIsaac, can just tap into strings after the eyes have processed them.

[eschmenk]

Pretty sure it's the same thing. Flower Journal is 247 and flower journal is what they used.

Oh, OK, it says "Flower Journal" in the name of the relevant updates. It artwork on page 247 didn't make it look like it was the same journal, but apparently it was. Still, I doubt that Parson knows that Isaac knows anything about Parson's plan yet. And yes, Isaac probably read Parson's memories when Parson tried to contact him.

[-D-]

Oh, OK, it says "Flower Journal" in the name of the relevant updates. It artwork on page 247 didn't make it look like it was the same journal, but apparently it was. Still, I doubt that Parson knows that Isaac knows anything about Parson's plan yet. And yes, Isaac probably read Parson's memories when Parson tried to contact him.
Yeah, Parson is in the dark regarding DeIsaac's involvement. I just noted, that his notes from Flower Journal are the same as here. I doubt that's a coincidence. That said, you are right and the original Signamancy (aka Flower) Journal looking different. To outsiders it looks like a sketch journal (no lines or margins), to Parson it looks like a notebook (there are lines and margins).

[DigoDragon]

New Page (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/271).

Well I think the best summary of this page came from a comment at the page site itself-- "Yay, now we have two Jacks!" :smalltongue:

I'll admit that I'm curious to see where this is going. Rigging a rigged portal?

[Zalabim]

Wild conspiracy theory time. Charlie has, basically, a VCR or I guess DVR for his 'Dish. It records the thinkamancy conversations he wants to monitor so he can view them later. He needs Ivan to get it working again. It seems like something that could be very useful in sorting out Big Think at the moment. Will Charlie try to tempt them with life? Is that the part of Charlie's operation they need to take over to save themselfs?

[-D-]

New comic.
(http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/272)
Well, that's weird. First part if Parson and then after image it switches to Roger.
I think Parson suspects GM now even more, since if they had magical foolamancy they could have protected GK at any point during battle of Portal Park.

It's moments like this I pity i didn't vote for slow story title :smallsigh:

[halfeye]

New comic.
(http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/272)
Well, that's weird. First part if Parson and then after image it switches to Roger.
I think Parson suspects GM now even more, since if they had magical foolamancy they could have protected GK at any point during battle of Portal Park.

It's moments like this I pity i didn't vote for slow story title :smallsigh:

Yeah, it's an odd switch from Parson, if it's not Parson listening in to a call via Roger, but I think it's actually Bill's point of view, and the voice he's hearing is Roger.

These messed up communication channels are a great way to slow the story down aren't they. :smallfurious:

[DigoDragon]

Yeah, it's an odd switch from Parson, if it's not Parson listening in to a call via Roger, but I think it's actually Bill's point of view, and the voice he's hearing is Roger.

These messed up communication channels are a great way to slow the story down aren't they. :smallfurious:

And confuse the reader. I used to get dinged in writing class for switching pov mid-page.
I can see why here.

[-D-]

These messed up communication channels are a great way to slow the story down aren't they. :smallfurious:
If by communication channels you Ivan being busy, possibly, but he?/they? is in a fragile state. And it's ok for him to Refuse a call.
If by communication channels you mean actual writing - not really :smallconfused: They are only good at confusion.

What slows down is essentially reiterating stuff we know, and not doing anything novel.


And confuse the reader. I used to get dinged in writing class for switching pov mid-page.
I can see why here.
Erfworld, teaching you how to NOT write, since Book 3.

[guttering flame]

I'm guessing Roger didn't even try to contact Ivan and simply lied to Parson about it. He's not there to help them. Why waste juice on this call when he can lie and say he was refused.

[Jasdoif]

And confuse the reader. I used to get dinged in writing class for switching pov mid-page.
I can see why here.The "---" marking the scene change is right there after the image, so if it weren't for the presence of the image in precisely the right location to mask the scene change, it'd probably be fine.

That said, personally I'd establish a new POV character via casual name dropping in the first paragraph after the scene change, if not in the first sentence.


I'm guessing Roger didn't even try to contact Ivan and simply lied to Parson about it. He's not there to help them. Why waste juice on this call when he can lie and say he was refused.Everything Ivan said to Parson through Roger would become something Roger knows to the exact same degree Parson does. It'd be easy recon.

[halfeye]

If by communication channels you Ivan being busy, possibly, but he?/they? is in a fragile state. And it's ok for him to Refuse a call.
If by communication channels you mean actual writing - not really :smallconfused: They are only good at confusion.

I mean the books and hats are useless because Charlie listens in, I mean Jed won't talk common, I mean Parson not having the usual warlord comms channels so he didn't personally learn Charlie's wealth. He still thinks 30 million schmuckers is a lot, but Charlie has over twenty (thirty?) times that and he doesn't know, even though he commands two units that do know it. Maggie having no juice is another channel that's not available for a silly reason.

[eschmenk]

I'm guessing Roger didn't even try to contact Ivan and simply lied to Parson about it. He's not there to help them. Why waste juice on this call when he can lie and say he was refused.

Maybe, but if so it almost backfired. Maggie was trying to go through Jed to get an order to Ivan to answer the next time Roger tried. Parson could have easily found that there wasn't a first attempt if that had worked out.

Roger might have wanted to contact Ivan because that way he could learn more about Parson's plans. Also, it would have been less likely to backfire on him if he did.


Everything Ivan said to Parson through Roger would become something Roger knows to the exact same degree Parson does. It'd be easy recon.

Yes, and probably would have been interested in what Parson would say, too. Even if Parson just asked questions, he might have been able to deduce why he asked them.

[Narkis]

I'm more curious about the fact that Parson apparently forgot about Bonnie's deal with the Great Minds. And wasn't Roger's plan to cut Parson's string as soon as he saw him? What's with the subterfuge all of a sudden?

[-D-]

I'm more curious about the fact that Parson apparently forgot about Bonnie's deal with the Great Minds. And wasn't Roger's plan to cut Parson's string as soon as he saw him? What's with the subterfuge all of a sudden?
Roger wants to kill Maggie, Bill, Parson in one fell swoop.

[Razade]

I'm more curious about the fact that Parson apparently forgot about Bonnie's deal with the Great Minds. And wasn't Roger's plan to cut Parson's string as soon as he saw him? What's with the subterfuge all of a sudden?

Did Parson ever know about the deal Bonnie made? He wasn't told about it after he was repatriated was he? And maybe Rodger doesn't want to be gunned down by all the other people in the room?

[eschmenk]

Did Parson ever know about the deal Bonnie made? He wasn't told about it after he was repatriated was he? And maybe Rodger doesn't want to be gunned down by all the other people in the room?

I couldn't remember that he knew either, but I reread some pages and found it on page 184 (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/184). That's when Jack and Parson had sneaked out of their cells. I think Rob probably forgot, too.

[-D-]

I couldn't remember that he knew either, but I reread some pages and found it on page 184 (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/184). That's when Jack and Parson had sneaked out of their cells. I think Rob probably forgot, too.
Good catch. I suspected that, but was extremely unsure. On one hand I can understand why. It happened a year ago...

On the other hand, I hope people will now believe me, when I'm saying how something that happened years ago might get forgotten by the author :smallsigh:

[Anteros]

How did she manage to tell them all this without penalty anyway? Parson can't even tell Roger his own plans without being afraid of penalty, but Bonnie can give away all of Charlie's secrets and defenses to one of Charlie's enemies with no penalty? That's not very consistent.

[Razade]

How did she manage to tell them all this without penalty anyway? Parson can't even tell Roger his own plans without being afraid of penalty, but Bonnie can give away all of Charlie's secrets and defenses to one of Charlie's enemies with no penalty? That's not very consistent.

She's Decrypted. Decryption seems to break previous deals. She was also not a member of GK when the thing was drafted. She's not under the Deal. The Deal also doesn't specify directly mentioning things Charlie has.

[Anteros]

She's Decrypted. Decryption seems to break previous deals. She was also not a member of GK when the thing was drafted. She's not under the Deal.

No. There's no way that makes sense. She's still a GK unit that is breaking the deal. By that logic they could just create a bunch of decrypted units and form up an assault party on Charlie with no penalties.

Also the Dirtamancer and Dollamancer are explicitly constricted by the deal, so this is obviously wrong.


The Deal also doesn't specify directly mentioning things Charlie has.

Then why is Parson so worried about even mentioning to Roger that he wants to know these things?

[Razade]

No. There's no way that makes sense. She's still a GK unit that is breaking the deal. By that logic they could just create a bunch of decrypted units and form up an assault party on Charlie with no penalties.

Bonnie is not attacking a member of Charlescomm by telling the Great Minds the layout of his city. That isn't part of the Deal.


Also the Dirtamancer and Dollamancer are explicitly constricted by the deal, so this is obviously wrong.

They're restricted from attacking units. Not talking about anything regarding Charlie.


Then why is Parson so worried about even mentioning to Roger that he wants to know these things?

He's not. Parson is blocked from talking about the contents of the deal with anyone. Much like Wanda, Jack and Jillian were with the deal they worked out with Charlie in the past. A fact that stopped for Jack when he died and came back to life.

[Anteros]

Bonnie is not attacking a member of Charlescomm by telling the Great Minds the layout of his city. That isn't part of the Deal.



They're restricted from attacking units. Not talking about anything regarding Charlie.



He's not. Parson is blocked from talking about the contents of the deal with anyone. Much like Wanda, Jack and Jillian were with the deal they worked out with Charlie in the past. A fact that stopped for Jack when he died and came back to life.

You're moving the goal posts here. You said she wasn't under the deal, when it's clearly incorrect. It doesn't really matter in the context of the larger conversation, but still.

The deal with Jack was with him as an individual. It's pretty clear that it's a different situation than a deal with an entire side. If they ended GK as a side and re-founded it to get out of the deal it would be more similar.


"Well...Charlie stuff. The layout of the Charlescomm's portal room and their traps" he said, kind of wincing. He half expected it to cost him one of these gems for saying even that much.

If talking about it can't incur penalties then this part of today's comic makes no sense. He should be able to talk about it all day with no penalty.

[Razade]

You're moving the goal posts here. You said she wasn't under the deal, when it's clearly incorrect. It doesn't really matter in the context of the larger conversation, but still.

No I'm not.


She's Decrypted. Decryption seems to break previous deals. She was also not a member of GK when the thing was drafted. She's not under the Deal. The Deal also doesn't specify directly mentioning things Charlie has.

The others are just conjecture. I said from the start that talking about things Charlie has does not incur a penalty. Obviously it doesn't. No one's been pinged talking about the forces of Charlie. The details of the deal are spelled out.


Charlescomm:
30 turns truce with Gobwin Knob.
Pay 227,800 Shmuckers to Gobwin Knob.
Secure release of the 21 Gobwin Knob units being held prisoner by Faq.
Release Gobwin Knob from all prior agreements.
Provide full details of the Dismiss Perfect Warlord scroll in Parson's possession.
Non-disclosure of the details of the agreement, until 90 turns after its end.
Gobwin Knob:
30 turns truce with Charlescomm.
30 turns unilateral non-aggression against Faq, except in self-defense.
Even in cases of self-defense, no harm or destruction of Jillian specifically.
Non-disclosure of the details of the agreement, until 90 turns after its end.
The agreement also provides for the following penalties:

For breaching the truce: half of the breaching side's treasury, to a maximum of 5,000,000 or a minimum of 500,000 Shmuckers.
If unable to meet the 500,000 Shmucker minimum, an equivalent value in units and/or cities.
For violating non-disclosure: one city of the other side's choice.
For Charlescomm failing any of its special obligations: 500,000 Shmuckers or an equivalent value in units and/or cities.


The deal with Jack was with him as an individual. It's pretty clear that it's a different situation than a deal with an entire side. If they ended GK as a side and re-founded it to get out of the deal it would be more similar.

Actually no. It was the side of Faq, any who were present at the trial of Olive Branch. It's ending was different however, not by turns but by croaking which is how Jack got out of it.



If talking about it can't incur penalties then this part of today's comic makes no sense. He should be able to talk about it all day with no penalty.

You're conflating two things.

Talking about the Deal (its terms etc) incurs a penalty. (This is covered by "Non-disclosure of the details of the agreement, until 90 turns after its end.")

Talking about Charlie's forces does not incur a penalty. (Note above that no such thing is spelled out anywhere in the contract)


Bonnie is doing the latter. Not the former. Parson doesn't know the latter and can't talk about the former. That's why no penalties are being wracked up by Bonnie but would be by Parson. They're two separate things.

[Anteros]

Ok, most of this is besides the point so I'm going to ignore it. All this brings us back to my original point of WHY IS PARSON WORRIED ABOUT BEING PENALIZED FOR SAYING HE WANTS INFORMATION ON CHARLIE?

It's either a part of the deal, or it's not. So either it's bad writing earlier where Bonnie gave out all the information without penalty, or it's bad writing now because rules against sharing that kind of information was never part of the deal. I agree with you that it's not part of the deal, but it seems like Rob forgot what the deal actually entails when he wrote this.

[Douglas]

He's worried about losing one of the gems if he says too much. Going over the list of penalties, that means he's worried it might count as breaking the truce. I... think that would be quite a stretch of interpretation of the contract. The wording forbids "material harm", and goes on to specify to units, cities, property, or other assets. No CharlesComm units, cities, or property are in any possible danger here. I could see Charlie considering his hold on his secrets to qualify as "other assets", but if so Bonnie talking to the Great Minds would have triggered penalties.

Best (in character) explanation I can come up with is that Parson's memory is a bit hazy on the details (it is a four page document of legalese, after all) and he's wary and cautious after having been outplayed by Charlie so many times.

As for Jack, his deal was described as "The Deal of a Lifetime", and was presumably worded appropriately - the deal itself specified that it would last until he croaked. He has now croaked, so that deal is over. That he effectively came back to life afterward was not a possibility the deal considered or accounted for.

[eschmenk]

Ok, most of this is besides the point so I'm going to ignore it. All this brings us back to my original point of WHY IS PARSON WORRIED ABOUT BEING PENALIZED FOR SAYING HE WANTS INFORMATION ON CHARLIE?

I think the idea is that what information Parson wants to know is closely related to why he wants to know it and saying anything about the why part would trigger a penalty. Yes, he could (and did) say what he wanted to know (information about the traps and portal) without incurring a penalty. However, he couldn't say that the contract would let him trigger payments by sending expendable units through the portal to set off those traps (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/184). I think Rob played that up a bit too much, though.

Granted, this seems rather weak, but maybe Parson was worried that even if Parson limited himself to what he wanted to know, it would be so easy for Roger to figure out the basics of the contract terms from that information that a payment would be triggered. The thing is that there have been a number of examples where people deduced some aspects of the contract without a penalty being charged, so it's not clear why Parson was particularly worried this time.


He's worried about losing one of the gems if he says too much. Going over the list of penalties, that means he's worried it might count as breaking the truce. I... think that would be quite a stretch of interpretation of the contract. [snip]

I realize that violating nondisclosure is supposed to cost a city instead of smuckers, but IMO the text made it sound as if a nondisclosure violation was what Parson was worrying about. I don't trust my memory, but I don't think this would be the first time it seemed that a nondisclosure violation would have penalty of smuckers, rather than a city, despite what the text of the contract actually says. Maybe the contract has been retconjured in Rob's mind? Also, it seems that a city, especially since the other side gets to choose which one, is a ridiculously high penalty to pay.

I guess it could be that Parson was worrying about a break of the truce, but as you said that seems like a huge stretch. Could the contract be interpreted so that an attempt to invade CC begins as soon as Parson asks for the necessary information to plan it? Granted, no penalty occurred, but that seems like nothing Parson should have even been worried about.


Best (in character) explanation I can come up with is that Parson's memory is a bit hazy on the details (it is a four page document of legalese, after all) and he's wary and cautious after having been outplayed by Charlie so many times.

Or maybe Parson is worrying excessively because he's already nervous about more-or-less giving GK's entire treasury to TV?

[guttering flame]

Ok, most of this is besides the point so I'm going to ignore it. All this brings us back to my original point of WHY IS PARSON WORRIED ABOUT BEING PENALIZED FOR SAYING HE WANTS INFORMATION ON CHARLIE?

It's either a part of the deal, or it's not. So either it's bad writing earlier where Bonnie gave out all the information without penalty, or it's bad writing now because rules against sharing that kind of information was never part of the deal. I agree with you that it's not part of the deal, but it seems like Rob forgot what the deal actually entails when he wrote this.

Maybe Parson doesn't remember the contract word for word. After the fiasco in portal park he became paranoid about hidden consequences from the contract. If he heard about Charlie conversation with Wanda he'd run around screaming right now.

[Anteros]

Maybe you're all right and he's just not clear on the contract. It's pretty irresponsible of him if that's the case, but ultimately it's a pretty nit-picky complaint on my part anyway.

[DigoDragon]

The "---" marking the scene change is right there after the image, so if it weren't for the presence of the image in precisely the right location to mask the scene change, it'd probably be fine.

Yeah, the image is poorly placed because the dashes didn't even register to me until much later.



Maybe you're all right and he's just not clear on the contract. It's pretty irresponsible of him if that's the case, but ultimately it's a pretty nit-picky complaint on my part anyway.

I dunno, I was thinking that question myself. I thought 'Perfect Warlord' meant he'd of found a loop hole ages ago on this contract. Loop holes was this thing back in Book 1. :3

[Doran]

Maybe you're all right and he's just not clear on the contract. It's pretty irresponsible of him if that's the case, but ultimately it's a pretty nit-picky complaint on my part anyway.

Well, he doesn't have a photographic memory. Does he have his eyebook / notebook on him, or is that back at GK?

[eschmenk]

Well, he doesn't have a photographic memory. Does he have his eyebook / notebook on him, or is that back at GK?

Parson has his flower journal (Lookmancy-proof notebook given by Janis) with him. I'm not sure he can write down any notes about the contract, though. If he did write down notes at the time, they wouldn't be in the flower journal because he didn't have it yet.

https://wiki.erfworld.com/Declaration_of_Non-Aggression_Between_Charlescomm_and_Gobwin_Knob

neither Party may disclose the details, conditions, or terms of the agreement, in whole or in part, to any unit not of that Party's own side, nor may they copy or transmit these terms and conditions in writing, by any means.
Would that keep Parson from writing any notes about it, even if he doesn't show anyone else?

[Anteros]

Well, he doesn't have a photographic memory. Does he have his eyebook / notebook on him, or is that back at GK?

You shouldn't need a photographic memory to memorize one page of text if your life literally depends on it. Especially when he doesn't even seem to recall what the contract does or does not entail. It doesn't need to be word for word.

If nothing else he should just be able to ask another unit like Jack or Maggie given their ability to sense whether or not certain actions will hurt the side.

[eschmenk]

If nothing else he should just be able to ask another unit like Jack or Maggie given their ability to sense whether or not certain actions will hurt the side.

Are you sure Jack or Maggie have that ability? Lilith obviously didn't.

Duty would affect them, but I don't think that's sufficient. A unit's duty keeps them from hurting their side intentionally, but AFAIK it doesn't keep them from making a mistake. Duty applies to Parson, so he wouldn't need to ask about that. He (well, Benjamin, actually) could ask his bracer, though.

[Anteros]

Are you sure Jack or Maggie have that ability? Lilith obviously didn't.

Duty would affect them, but I don't think that's sufficient. A unit's duty keeps them from hurting their side intentionally, but AFAIK it doesn't keep them from making a mistake. Duty applies to Parson, so he wouldn't need to ask about that. He (well, Benjamin, actually) could ask his bracer, though.

Well, the dirtamancer and dollmancer somehow knew how to avoid breaking the contract when interacting with Charlie's units, despite having no way of even knowing it existed. There's some sort of mechanic there.

Or maybe it's just more inconsistent writing.

[Xihirli]

Well, archons don't have a treasury sense, so maybe a treasury and treaty sense are linked in some way.

[eschmenk]

Well, the dirtamancer and dollmancer somehow knew how to avoid breaking the contract when interacting with Charlie's units, despite having no way of even knowing it existed. There's some sort of mechanic there.

Or maybe it's just more inconsistent writing.

I don't think so. Somehow Claud knew about the truce and ruled out harming the action figure immediately after they were decrypted (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book+3/225). It didn't seem that a mechanic was responsible because he wasn't completely certain. He knew that it depended on whether or not they had been croaked long enough for the contract to have expired, but he wasn't sure of that. The only way I can think to explain that is that they were told about the non-aggression contract as agents of CC. It makes some sense that they needed to know that if they harmed GK units, CC would incur a penalty. Granted, there wasn't an indication that Ivan knew already during the battle in portal park.

[Doran]

Charlie also might have told them the full details because he planned to use them in some future scheme against Charlescomm, and without decryption there was no way they'd work for Goblin Knob

[Anteros]

Charlie couldn't have told them about it before they turned because he can't tell 3rd parties about the terms without incurring a penalty. You linked that bit earlier yourself eshmenk.

He also couldn't have told them about it after they turned because we saw everything he said to them between turning and them being killed, and it was only like 5 words that had nothing to do with the truce. They died pretty much immediately.

http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/210


It's either that casters have some sort of innate sense about whatever treaty their side is under, or Rob just forgot they didn't know when he wrote it. At least that's all I can think of.

[Doran]

Charlie couldn't have told them about it before they turned because he can't tell 3rd parties about the terms without incurring a penalty. You linked that bit earlier yourself eshmenk.

He also couldn't have told them about it after they turned because we saw everything he said to them between turning and them being killed, and it was only like 5 words that had nothing to do with the truce. They died pretty much immediately.

http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/210


It's either that casters have some sort of innate sense about whatever treaty their side is under, or Rob just forgot they didn't know when he wrote it. At least that's all I can think of.

Maybe... he told them before or as he was negotiating the truce contract, so they knew before it came into effect.

[Anteros]

Maybe... he told them before or as he was negotiating the truce contract, so they knew before it came into effect.

That seems very unlikely considering how spur of the moment the truce was, and how closely Charlie keeps his secrets. I'll concede that it's possible though.

[eschmenk]

Charlie couldn't have told them about it before they turned because he can't tell 3rd parties about the terms without incurring a penalty. You linked that bit earlier yourself eshmenk.

Yes, I know about that. I assume that it wasn't a problem, though. Perhaps, as agents, they count as being on the same side for the purposes of confidentiality. Perhaps Charlie communicated enough information for them to figure it out without saying too much. Perhaps carnymancy was somehow involved. I don't know why it wasn't a problem; it just didn't seem to be one and I wouldn't expect it to be one. I would find it hard to believe that Charlie would write a contract that could result in agents costing him schmuckers and him being unable to tell his agents to not do the things that trigger those costs.

I suppose another possibility is that freshly decrypted units are given an initial brain-dump of information so they can be effective immediately. In that case, it would be a bit odd that Claud wouldn't have known whether or not the contract was still in effect, though.

If you don't like my idea, do you have any ideas that would explain Claud's behavior on that page that would be consistent with their being a game mechanic informing Claud?

I didn't mention it earlier, but the conversation on this page (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/242) also seems inconsistent with your idea that there is a game mechanic. There Claud and Ivan are having to ask each other if something would count or not and they seem to be using their own expertise to figure it out, rather than relying on a game mechanic. I don't think Maggie or Jack would have more expertise regarding the costs of confidentiality violations (what we were originally talking about) than Claud had regarding what dirtamancy tricks might trigger penalties. If a mechanic wasn't telling Claud what he wanted to know, why would it tell Maggie or Jack what Parson needed to know?

[Anteros]

No, I'm not going to sit here and try to reason out a completely proven and internally consistent way they could know everything because my entire point was that there might not be one. You've offered an explanation that makes no sense and asked me to either prove an alternative or accept it. It wouldn't be the first time Rob forgot something or messed something up. Heck, there's even an entire canon brand of magic in Erfworld to cover for mistakes like that.

"Maybe they count as part of Charlie's side despite explicitly not being part of Charlie's side" is not a compelling argument. I'm honestly not even going to take the time to point out the holes in that reasoning.

Also, the page you linked is Claud asking for clarification of different Dirtamancy things and what would count as an attack. It had literally nothing to do with him not being aware of the contract terms. He's not asking because he doesn't know the contract. He's asking because he doesn't know Dirtamancy.

[eschmenk]

No, I'm not going to sit here and try to reason out a completely proven and internally consistent way they could know everything because my entire point was that there might not be one. You've offered an explanation that makes no sense and asked me to either prove an alternative or accept it. It wouldn't be the first time Rob forgot something or messed something up. Heck, there's even an entire canon brand of magic in Erfworld to cover for mistakes like that.

My explanation makes perfect sense.


"Maybe they count as part of Charlie's side despite explicitly not being part of Charlie's side" is not a compelling argument. I'm honestly not even going to take the time to point out the holes in that reasoning.

It obviously wasn't written to be a compelling argument. It was just one of several possibilities.


Also, the page you linked is Claud asking for clarification of different Dirtamancy things and what would count as an attack. It had literally nothing to do with him not being aware of the contract terms. He's not asking because he doesn't know the contract. He's asking because he doesn't know Dirtamancy.

Somehow I missed the fact that you switched from talking about an "ability to sense whether or not certain actions will hurt the side" to "some sort of innate sense about whatever treaty their side is under." I was still arguing against the first one.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

New strip!

Welp, another caster is added to the Isaac Fire.

[Doran]

Another reminder that Wanda is not a nice or particularly sane person

[-D-]

Another reminder that Wanda is not a nice or particularly sane person
New comic: Wanda is an a-hole.

In other news: The water is wet.

[guttering flame]

Hey! Wanda is a cool Player.

Dollamancer is an aware meat puppet NPC with low loyalty stats.

For the Mistress! :smallamused:

[-D-]

Hey! Wanda is a cool Player.

Dollamancer is an aware meat puppet NPC with low loyalty stats.

For the Mistress! :smallamused:
Wanda is working on alienating as many other people as she can. Which I guess is good for Parson/GK. Lots of defectors.

[eschmenk]

Rob got a lot of use out of Kafka quotes.

[DigoDragon]

Wanda is working on alienating as many other people as she can. Which I guess is good for Parson/GK. Lots of defectors.

Also, linking up may expose her personal secrets to Isaac and she probably doesn't want that.

[lord_khaine]

Wanda is working on alienating as many other people as she can. Which I guess is good for Parson/GK. Lots of defectors.

The alienating part hardly matters when its done by pushing people off a cliff..

And yeah its a jerk move, Wanda has shown to care even less about those under her command than regular Rulers.


Also, linking up may expose her personal secrets to Isaac and she probably doesn't want that.

I suspect she mainly dont want to because that linking seems to be permanent. And involve a large loss of personal identity.

[-D-]

I suspect she mainly dont want to because that linking seems to be permanent. And involve a large loss of personal identity.
It does? Both Ivan and DeIsaac have distinct speaking voices. What I suspect is that detangling DeIsaac and caster reeks of death.

[DigoDragon]

It does? Both Ivan and DeIsaac have distinct speaking voices. What I suspect is that detangling DeIsaac and caster reeks of death.

I'm under the impression that joining up isn't any more permanent than usual caster links are, but it's decoupling the casters that'll become messy for deIsaac since he's not a 'single' caster anymore. Reeking of death indeed.

[guttering flame]

I'm under the impression that joining up isn't any more permanent than usual caster links are, but it's decoupling the casters that'll become messy for deIsaac since he's not a 'single' caster anymore. Reeking of death indeed.

Also, no Thinkalikes to safely decouple the link. Only Maggie, Bunny and Traitorjudge.

[DigoDragon]

Also, no Thinkalikes to safely decouple the link. Only Maggie, Bunny and Traitorjudge.

And at the moment Bunny is "nursing a sore throat".

[Leewei]

Wanda wants Charlie dead, and wants it a lot. The GMtTA backstabbed her and GK very recently. She will give Isaac what (er, whom) he needs to mess with Charlie, but she (with very good cause) does not trust him enough to link with him.

[JavaScribe]

The GMtTA backstabbed her and GK very recently. She will give Isaac what (er, whom) he needs to mess with Charlie, but she (with very good cause) does not trust him enough to link with him.
Was she ever informed of the deal and backstab?

[Leewei]

Was she ever informed of the deal and backstab?

That's a very good question. Bonnie is decrypted. As such, anything she witnesses may also be known to Wanda. There's no assurance that this is the case, though.

[Anteros]

Does he even have to listen to Wanda? Obviously the pliers give her some sort of leverage, but she's not a warlord, and not even a chief caster. She doesn't even have the pliers. I'm not even sure she can disband him.



It does? Both Ivan and DeIsaac have distinct speaking voices. What I suspect is that detangling DeIsaac and caster reeks of death.



I don't know. I definitely got a "join the collective" vibe as well. I also suspect it may be permanent and involve a loss of individualism.

[eschmenk]

Well, since it's Wanda, I just assumed that she's probably reserving herself for whatever she expects Fate to want her to do.

[Zalabim]

She certainly doesn't look like she wants Claude to join either, but maybe she's been convinced that he has to.

As to disbanding him or not, I think Wanda just means that she can destroy Claude with a thought, since he's Decrypted and she's the Croakamancer and Attuned that made him. She said earlier that she couldn't do anything about Lilith in CC, but Claude is right in front of her. Even though he has a gun, I'd put my money on Wanda winning any fight between them. It doesn't look as though Claude wants to use that thing either, or he could shoot Isaac.

[eschmenk]

Does he even have to listen to Wanda? Obviously the pliers give her some sort of leverage, but she's not a warlord, and not even a chief caster. She doesn't even have the pliers. I'm not even sure she can disband him.
I think she's probably bluffing, but it's still a very powerful thing to say to Claud. Since he's decrypted, emotionally he lives to serve her. The idea that she wouldn't want him at all if he didn't agree to join would be a huge deal for him.


I don't know. I definitely got a "join the collective" vibe as well. I also suspect it may be permanent and involve a loss of individualism.

There wasn't a complete lost of individuality for Ivan. "You are bound to us, but separate. You remain discrete." (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/267) That said, if the Big Think unraveled, Ivan wouldn't survive. No one seems to be even thinking about spinning Ivan or Claud loose at some point. Partially for meta reasons, I wouldn't expect them to survive permanently, but I don't really know.

[lord_khaine]

There is a very large loss of identity though. Ivan stopped using his own name, and became Dirtamancer.


"Then you croaked... "began Dirtamancer. He could not say us, but he remembered a little more about that Ivan Poe character he were distantly related to. "you croaked Charlies Hackers"

From page 267 also does seem to indicate, that from Dirtamancers point of view Ivan Poe is dead and gone.

[eschmenk]

I don't know how much to read into that. Yes, on one hand it's as if Ivan has changed so much that he might not be able to be changed back to what he was before even if Big Think tried to set him free. OTOH, on the current page, Ivan called Claud and Wanda "Dollamancer" and "Croakamancer," even though they haven't changed yet. That would seem to indicate that the terminology might not mean much.

[Yuki Akuma]

They're linked. When linked, Casters are always referred to by class rather than by name. Treating them as individuals is a bad idea.

[lord_khaine]

The important bit is that even in the privacy of its own mind, Dirtamancer still only think of itself as distantly related to Ivan.

[halfeye]

The important bit is that even in the privacy of its own mind, Dirtamancer still only think of itself as distantly related to Ivan.
Yeah, but the important and so far (IIRC) unanswered question is did Dirtamancer think of himself as Dirtamancer or Ivan post decrypting but before joining?

[lord_khaine]

Yeah, but the important and so far (IIRC) unanswered question is did Dirtamancer think of himself as Dirtamancer or Ivan post decrypting but before joining?

Seriously? :smallconfused:
How can that even be a question, let alone an important one? We have seen that decryption dont leave any meaningful changes on peoples personality. We have seen Ivan did not change in any meaningful way after decryption. We have seen that he changed a LOT after joining.

[halfeye]

Seriously? :smallconfused:
How can that even be a question

I forget stuff. I'm not sure whether the internal dialog going up to meet the minds said who Ivan thought he was. All the decrypted could be like Greg, look the same on the outside, different inside. Which would make Jillian right about something, which would be interesting. I'm not saying I think it's true, but I don't remember anything canon that says it's definitively false.

[Anteros]

Let's just all agree that it's still a bit ambiguous and could go either way before we devolve into a big argument again.

[Xihirli]

I think she's probably bluffing, but it's still a very powerful thing to say to Claud. Since he's decrypted, emotionally he lives to serve her. The idea that she wouldn't want him at all if he didn't agree to join would be a huge deal for him.

Have any Decrypted casters shown signs of emotional dependency on Wanda? I don't remember any "I love Wanda" from Jack, Ace, Marie, or the Beans. Not from Ivan or Claude either. It might be that casters keep most of their free will post-decryption, excepting their sense of Duty to the pliers.

[Razade]

Have any Decrypted casters shown signs of emotional dependency on Wanda? I don't remember any "I love Wanda" from Jack, Ace, Marie, or the Beans. Not from Ivan or Claude either. It might be that casters keep most of their free will post-decryption, excepting their sense of Duty to the pliers.

Marie flat out says she has no change in her at all. Unless someone wants to argue that she may have been altered in a way she doesn't know I think we should take the word of a Decrypted who openly declared their intention to turn to another side without any lack conviction over...internet arguers.

[Douglas]

I'm pretty sure casters in a link referring to themselves by discipline rather than name is just a part of how links in general work. Why else would addressing them by name risk breaking the link?

[stsasser]

Let's just all agree that it's still a bit ambiguous and could go either way before we devolve into a big argument again.

Before? After? We will devolve into a big argument either way.:smallsigh:

[NEO|Phyte]

It's well established that a link comes with a large degree of losing one's Self while in the link. Ivan is still in there somewhere, but the linkself sort of stuffs him into a closet or something so it can work without distraction.

[Anteros]

Have any Decrypted casters shown signs of emotional dependency on Wanda? I don't remember any "I love Wanda" from Jack, Ace, Marie, or the Beans. Not from Ivan or Claude either. It might be that casters keep most of their free will post-decryption, excepting their sense of Duty to the pliers.

Ansom outright says his love of Jillian transferred to Wanda after decryption. Jack considers her a sister, and he certainly didn't before.

[eschmenk]

Yes, and GK's decrypted units, like Bonnie and Ace, were the most upset that more wasn't being done to rescue Wanda.


They're linked. When linked, Casters are always referred to by class rather than by name. Treating them as individuals is a bad idea.
But Wanda and Claud weren't linked.


Marie flat out says she has no change in her at all. Unless someone wants to argue that she may have been altered in a way she doesn't know I think we should take the word of a Decrypted who openly declared their intention to turn to another side without any lack conviction over...internet arguers.

I don't know if Marie is an exception or is downplaying it or what, but she seems to be an unusual case. She apparently views her ultimate loyalty as being to Fate, but her loyalty apparently goes through Wanda (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/262). I'm not sure what to make of that yet, but I think if she views Wanda as Fate's agent, she'll still be incredibly loyal to Wanda.

I'll note that Jillian seemed to think that all decrypted are only loyal to Wanda.

[Razade]

I'll note that Jillian seemed to think that all decrypted are only loyal to Wanda.

Jillian is just demonstrably wrong about the Decrypted on every front really, mostly clouded by Ansom.

[keybounce]

I don't know. I definitely got a "join the collective" vibe as well. I also suspect it may be permanent and involve a loss of individualism.

So, a bit of a cross between "Join Petey and the FleetMind", and "Attention attorney, the drone collective wants you"?

[Rockphed]

So, a bit of a cross between "Join Petey and the FleetMind", and "Attention attorney, the drone collective wants you"?

Is it fair to compare Schlock Mercenary to Erfworld on any front? I now feel the need to do an archive trawl of the former. I don't have time to do so. :smallfrown:

[-D-]

The biggest news is that deadline is very soon or broken and no Erfworld. Welp. Perhaps we need a Rob update that moves target zone to GMT +24.

[DataNinja]

New Update

Well, Charlie might be soon getting an AI. Whether it's the helpful or homicidal kind... who knows? Heck, since the 'Dish is on the Tower, well, it might just take that for itself.

Edit:
Posted 45 minutes prior to this post on Facebook was this:
"Been trying for an hour to post the comic but getting a 504 at the site. Web team is on it."

[Anteros]

Does anyone remember when Erfworld was a comic?

Honestly, I can't even bring myself to read these giant poorly written blocks of text anymore. I just kinda skim them and follow the forum conversation to get the general idea.

[smuchmuch]

i enjoy text updates when they gave a better insight in the head and motivation of characters or into the lore and devellop the settings in way that would have been superfluous in the comic. I like it less when they are vital to the plot but too long.

That and Deeisac (I normaly dislike using the expression 'deus ex machina', I've seen it overused and in context when it doesn't apply, but i think it does to a point here. ithe fact that the great mind could reist death by melding in one superpowered individual even despite the fact their death came as complete surprise and therefore they shouldn't have been able to react to it, came out of nowhere with little justification, little foreshadowing and it fixes abput everythign int he storry with little effort involved from other chaarcters) apprently fixing everything make it hard to care about the ongoing.. conflict ? If it can ever still be called that. Pretty much since it killed all the archon arpound wanda withoput apprent effort, if feel there's little siituation it can't just magic away, especialy if it has decrypted casters to link with. Kinda whish they'd stop pretending there's still tensiopn and finish this.

[Kantaki]

Giving Charlescomm a awakened Tower strikes me as a terrible idea.
Especially since we already know they don't reallly take orders like regular Golems do.
Oh well, maybe they are lucky and it will help them against Charles.
Only to take the City for itself.:smallamused:
Erfworld would get ist own Skynet.

[guttering flame]

This page could be shortened, no doubt, but it's got some interesting ideas. Charlie as the main threat seems less and less likely. I'm guessing he'll become irrelevant in short order and the new opponent will be Charlescomm Tower/Gate. Which sounds interesting.

[-D-]

This page could be shortened, no doubt, but it's got some interesting ideas. Charlie as the main threat seems less and less likely. I'm guessing he'll become irrelevant in short order and the new opponent will be Charlescomm Tower/Gate. Which sounds interesting.
Wat.

That's terrible writing. That's like saying we set up this fight between a hero and Mastermind villain, only the villain has been defeated by his sentient house, so now the hero fight the sentient house.

Charlie has been set as Mastermind villain, having him defeated by a tower would be... Stupid. I suspect you are 100% right.

Why can't they just call a Carny and mindwipe him/her afterwards? Have Isaac call Parson, sort the ****ing Roger issue... And Carny yourself a suit of armor.

[guttering flame]

Wat.

That's terrible writing. That's like saying we set up this fight between a hero and Mastermind villain, only the villain has been defeated by his sentient house, so now the hero fight the sentient house.

Charlie has been set as Mastermind villain, having him defeated by a tower would be... Stupid. I suspect you are 100% right.

Why can't they just call a Carny and mindwipe him/her afterwards? Have Isaac call Parson, sort the ****ing Roger issue... And Carny yourself a suit of armor.

Charlie was set as Mastermind villain... kinda. What has he really done since the battle over Spacerock? He doesn't feel like the Mastermind villain.

An inhuman opponent is problematic of course but this direction can easily streamline the story. Overpowered Thinkamancers wiped by turn's end, pathetic villain/opponent Charlie replaced, widespread ignoring of protagonist and his side (by the other kindgoms and casters) stop at the appearance of the new threat, eldrich abomination added. It's not the story we started with but it could be a solid RPG game story.

[DigoDragon]

I found myself skipping texts on this one. Dunno if I'd be on board with a sentient comm tower. I guess Jed needed a worthy opponent. Dunno.

[lord_khaine]

I dont really think Jed is active enough to need that. Or that a sentinent com tower would do to much on its own.

[Otomodachi]

. Kinda whish they'd stop pretending there's still tensiopn and finish this.

I agree with most of what you said but sooooooo much with this.

Get on with it! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1YmS_VDvMY)

[Kantaki]

I wouldn't say that the problem is a lack of tension- although there isn't very much of it at this point.
My problem with Erfworld is that there is a interesting story, that there could be actual tension, but the countless meandering plot-lines are drying it up.

[-D-]

Charlie was set as Mastermind villain... kinda. What has he really done since the battle over Spacerock? He doesn't feel like the Mastermind villain.

An inhuman opponent is problematic of course but this direction can easily streamline the story. Overpowered Thinkamancers wiped by turn's end, pathetic villain/opponent Charlie replaced, widespread ignoring of protagonist and his side (by the other kindgoms and casters) stop at the appearance of the new threat, eldrich abomination added. It's not the story we started with but it could be a solid RPG game story.
He was set up as a villain only Parson could defeat. A person who could only be mentally matched by Parson.

If Erfworld maybe setup itself earlier as a sort of twisty/meta-narrative style of story, that might work. But we already know Parson is Fated to defeat Charlie, and not some Skynet wannabe. While going off the beaten path, might sound interesting, it would require another 300 comics.

Solid RPG game story, is in my opinion still a ****ty story, since RNG and dice rolls have sooo much influence over everything. Your low powered companion just managed to crit and kill the Slayer sent to destroy you with a weapon he barely knows how to hold.

[eschmenk]

This was mostly about how a dollamancer would experience deiIsaac in a link. It was a pleasant enough read, but most of it didn't advance the plot much.


I found myself skipping texts on this one. Dunno if I'd be on board with a sentient comm tower. I guess Jed needed a worthy opponent. Dunno.

There wasn't anything in the update about a sentient com tower. There was talk about possibly making CC's portal sentient, though, and a brief mention of Jed. If you want to know what's in the update, it's best to read it. :smallsmile:

[Razade]

{Scrubbed}

[lord_khaine]

It really was a very interesting read, giving us a much greater insight into both Claud gauntlet and the Isac collective. And honestly, i will pick a good read over boring plot advancement any day of the week.

[Anteros]

Wat.

That's terrible writing. That's like saying we set up this fight between a hero and Mastermind villain, only the villain has been defeated by his sentient house, so now the hero fight the sentient house.

Charlie has been set as Mastermind villain, having him defeated by a tower would be... Stupid. I suspect you are 100% right.

Why can't they just call a Carny and mindwipe him/her afterwards? Have Isaac call Parson, sort the ****ing Roger issue... And Carny yourself a suit of armor.

I think Charlie is ultimately small potatoes in the grand scheme of the Fate/bring peace to Erfworld plot.

It's just that we've been on this subplot for a decade so it feels like the main story.

{Scrubbed}

[Kantaki]

This was mostly about how a dollamancer would experience deiIsaac in a link. It was a pleasant enough read, but most of it didn't advance the plot much.



There wasn't anything in the update about a sentient com tower. There was talk about possibly making CC's portal sentient, though, and a brief mention of Jed. If you want to know what's in the update, it's best to read it. :smallsmile:

The Isaac-Entity did compare it to Parson's cheat though, in a way that implies they will do the same there.
So assuming that CC's tower will get a A.I. too kinda makes sense.

Besides, is the Portal even a distinct, independent structure?
I was kinda under the impression it was part of the Tower itself.
Considering Jed can provide Maggie with Juice it seems to have at least some access if we take recent revelations into account.
So awakening the Portal might very well have a influence on the greater superstructure it is part of.

[eschmenk]

They are accessing the portal column from under the MK, so I'm not sure it's really located in CC's tower.

[Razade]

{Scrubbed}

[Emperor Demonking]

He was set up as a villain only Parson could defeat. A person who could only be mentally matched by Parson.

If Erfworld maybe setup itself earlier as a sort of twisty/meta-narrative style of story, that might work. But we already know Parson is Fated to defeat Charlie, and not some Skynet wannabe. While going off the beaten path, might sound interesting, it would require another 300 comics.

Solid RPG game story, is in my opinion still a ****ty story, since RNG and dice rolls have sooo much influence over everything. Your low powered companion just managed to crit and kill the Slayer sent to destroy you with a weapon he barely knows how to hold.

We do indeed know that Parsn is fated to kill Charlie, so isn't it more interesting to put him up against a threat that - we do not know otherwise - he is not fated to defeat. It also shakes up the fate if he is still going to kill Charlie who is no longer threat.

In this bok Charlie has already been resolutely defeated at every turn. I had been thinking that the book would end on him scoring a spectacular victory, but I'm thinking that it might end up with losing his dsh, tower and archons instead.

My guess is that just like this book brgan with Jed its going to end with CharCom Tower. No guesses with what the Jillian/Marie will be, and I'm still intruiged.

[Darkspear]

They are accessing the portal column from under the MK, so I'm not sure it's really located in CC's tower.

Is it too much to hope that because they're accessing the MK's portals they'll accidentally make all the portals in the MK self-aware? We know the system don't like being broken as we see with Claud's dislike of so much cheating and that could be read as hostility to Charlie when they awaken the MK portals.

That way we no longer have portal hacking and we'll begin to detangle this mess by losing instant travel and capital city jumping/rushing.

[DigoDragon]

There wasn't anything in the update about a sentient com tower. There was talk about possibly making CC's portal sentient, though, and a brief mention of Jed. If you want to know what's in the update, it's best to read it. :smallsmile:

I know there's nothing in the update about a sentient comm tower. I was musing over a comment someone else said earlier about the idea of Charlie getting his own sentient comm tower. :smalltongue:

[guttering flame]

What does a sentient portal even mean?

[Razade]

What does a sentient portal even mean?

I imagine it will be explained if and when it happens.

[Kantaki]

I imagine it will be explained if and when it happens.

That might take a while.
Aren't we due a scene change?:smalltongue:

[Braininthejar2]

In Soviet Russia, the Portals think with themselves?

[TheWombatOfDoom]

What if due to charlie being hooked into the tower, it means that he...becomes the tower...like a GlaDos type thing. He's currently in GlaDos' potato form, after all. :smallbiggrin:

[Anteros]

{Scrubbed}

[keybounce]

In Soviet Russia, the Portals think with themselves?

I'm sorry, but somehow, with Parson portrayed as a gamer, I want him to start thinking with portals :-)

[Aquillion]

That might take a while.
Aren't we due a scene change?:smalltongue:Aaaand it looks like we're due for a hiatus! At least they explained why in detail.

Also, I'd have put "I need to get married" a bit higher up on the post, it's just sort of tucked away in there.


I'm sorry, but somehow, with Parson portrayed as a gamer, I want him to start thinking with portals :-)He tried that one, but they said it couldn't be done.

[stsasser]

Aaaand it looks like we're due for a hiatus! At least they explained why in detail.

Also, I'd have put "I need to get married" a bit higher up on the post, it's just sort of tucked away in there.

I've suspected that Rob has to keep changing artists because he insists upon revision after revision, pressing the deadlines. He just about admitted that its that way with his text updates, so I believe that 'other projects', 'moving on to develp art style' etc amount to 'giant pain in the ass and will do greeting cards rather than put up with it any more.'

As for the quality not suffering from the 'put up anything as long as it's on time'? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAA no.

Finally, splitting a book demonstrates that he is channeling George RR Martin in overpopulating his work with subplots and characters, without even Martin's limited skill set. (Yes, I think Game of Thrones and it's sequels are tiresome drivel.)

[guttering flame]

We get a two month hiatus just after I said the comic is about to get interesting again. Does Rob hate me?

[Rockphed]

We get a two month hiatus just after I said the comic is about to get interesting again. Does Rob hate me?

Of all the people Rob hates, I suspect he hates himself the most.

[Anteros]

Oof. I do not like the new inker's style at all. At least not in the tiny bit we've seen of it.

http://www.erfworld.com/blog/view/47411/new-art-team-in-place-kickstarter-launched

Her work is the top image on the page.

Maybe it will be better once she adjusts to the style.

[-D-]

Finally, splitting a book demonstrates that he is channeling George RR Martin in overpopulating his work with subplots and characters, without even Martin's limited skill set. (Yes, I think Game of Thrones and it's sequels are tiresome drivel.)
Splitting book at pg 141, reminds me of a YouTube WH40k video where the Emperor of mankind says - we'll split the book into two parts, for double the profit.

If you look at pg 141, it's just an unnatural point to break. Next page requires you to know what happened in previous scene. Book one and two started with an intro, this book starts in middle of a previous scene.

Say you are new and you read pg 142. Here is the stream of consciousness of newbie. What's leadership? Did those guys beat up the glow girl? Why is she helping them? Our ruler? They are same side? Hell is Dollamancy. And, so on.

This move seems to be addressing the criticism of book 3 being too long, by essentially cutting it in two. That's how an engineer would solve a solution of the prose being too wordy. That or extracting more money.

Also full agreement on GRR Martin. I thought I was the only one.

[guttering flame]

Splitting book at pg 141, reminds me of a YouTube WH40k video where the Emperor of mankind says - we'll split the book into two parts, for double the profit.

If you look at pg 141, it's just an unnatural point to break. Next page requires you to know what happened in previous scene. Book one and two started with an intro, this book starts in middle of a previous scene.

Say you are new and you read pg 142. Here is the stream of consciousness of newbie. What's leadership? Did those guys beat up the glow girl? Why is she helping them? Our ruler? They are same side? Hell is Dollamancy. And, so on.

This move seems to be addressing the criticism of book 3 being too long, by essentially cutting it in two. That's how an engineer would solve a solution of the prose being too wordy. That or extracting more money.

Also full agreement on GRR Martin. I thought I was the only one.

That's going too far. How many people do you expect to start reading the comic from a middle book? A new book should still contain some intro/reminders for readers who last read the comic a while ago though. I suppose he can add a "What has gone before" wall-of-text at the beginning of this Book 4. Is there a better breaking point do you think?

[-D-]

That's going too far. How many people do you expect to start reading the comic from a middle book? A new book should still contain some intro/reminders for readers who last read the comic a while ago though. I suppose he can add a "What has gone before" wall-of-text at the beginning of this Book 4. Is there a better breaking point do you think?
My point was, it makes no sense to split the book into two. And all books so far had introductions.

Titans created the worlds, yada yada, last Chief Warlord dies.
After winning a decisive battle, Stanley keeps Parson in capital
Three casters and Parson begin their plan to stop Charlie
Parson is captured, Wanda is captured, Decrypted are captured, Charlie is crying, Bonnie is Decrypted, **** is hitting wall left and right.

If I had to visualize pg 142 as "start" of Book 4 it would be this: http://i.imgur.com/NLUkAEj.mp4


It just throws you straight away into plot. To me that reeks of last minute measures. If you want new readers of your books, you kinda have to think how each book will be received by new readers, no?

As for the point at which it should break? I really don't see one. If I was Rob, I'd continue with the plot tumor that is Book 3, admit fault, and try better in the future. Maybe by not having so many characters/arcs/plot/fates running at the same time?

[eschmenk]

I think that what you are complaining about is pretty typical among webcomics. To put things in context, some other successful webcomics don't do better job of splitting the story into books, although normally they don't retroactively split a book so late. One example is Girl Genius. Here (http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20160912) is the last page of one book and here (http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20160914) is the first page of the next book, which is also the current one. There is a scene change there, but no particular break in the action. Several books ago, the Foglios even retroactively adjusted a break by shifting a few pages from one book into the other and forcing a renumbering of pages in the latter book.

For several years, it seemed pretty obvious that the Foglios were attempting to split things so they could publish one book per year. The story arcs lasted much longer than that, so the breaks simply occurred throughout the arcs.

I know you like Unsounded. In that case, the break between the first and second books corresponded to the break between Chapters 3 and 4. The really wasn't much of a break in the story there, though. Chapter 3 ended with Sette and Duane avoiding a couple of Peaceguard. Chapter 4 began possibly the next morning with the Peaceguard locating were Sette and Duane had stayed the night and walking into a trap there. There wasn't anything at the beginning of Chapter 4 to set the context for that, although there was a flashback a couple of pages in. Still, a reader wouldn't want to start there. The next break was at the end of Chapter 6. Again, it corresponded to a change from one day to the next morning.

I'm wondering if Rob has thought much about how his page numbers will correspond to physical pages, though. I think his text updates would often require several physical pages to include all of the words.

[-D-]

I think that what you are complaining about is pretty typical among webcomics.
And I'm not reading Girl Genius. I guess it might be ok if it's one of those 2 book 1 book, like GoT or Harry Potter (IIRC).

So the defense is, everyone is awful at it, so it's ok?
My points was things in Erfworld story structures/overall experience have degraded.



I know you like Unsounded. In that case, the break between the first and second books corresponded to the break between Chapters 3 and 4. The really wasn't much of a break in the story there, though. Chapter 3 ended with Sette and Duane avoiding a couple of Peaceguard. Chapter 4 began possibly the next morning with the Peaceguard locating were Sette and Duane had stayed the night and walking into a trap there. There wasn't anything at the beginning of Chapter 4 to set the context for that, although there was a flashback a couple of pages in. Still, a reader wouldn't want to start there. The next break was at the end of Chapter 6. Again, it corresponded to a change from one day to the next morning.

It's still a more natural break than between pg 141 (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/141)/142 (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/142). Unsounded chapter starts more slowly, while pg 142 is essentially hit the ground running after jumping out of a car.

Also between chapter 3 and chapter 4, Duane and Sette were poisoned and scammed. It's a much longer period than between pg 141/142.

[DigoDragon]

I'm sorry, but somehow, with Parson portrayed as a gamer, I want him to start thinking with portals :-)

"Speedy thing kipi's in, speedy thing kipi's out."

[Aquillion]

Oof. I do not like the new inker's style at all. At least not in the tiny bit we've seen of it.

http://www.erfworld.com/blog/view/47411/new-art-team-in-place-kickstarter-launched

Her work is the top image on the page.

Maybe it will be better once she adjusts to the style.It's not that bad. I mean, yeah, it's not as good as the current one (which is hardly a surprise given that she was second place!), but she's way better than the one before that, who I think we can all agree was so bad near the end that it was actively interfering with the comic.

It's interesting to look back at that comparison and get a sense of how different artists could change how we see Erfworld. Lauri's use of shading and added lines to make Wanda and Jack more expressive stands out in particular. It also shows something else they mentioned in that post about the advantage of Lauri being a longtime fan - he emphasized the openness of the Portal Park as a clearing and the fact that the forest stops there, presumably since he knew more about the canonical layout of the MK. (OTOH now that I look at it, he gave GK way too many soldiers in that column. They never had THAT many in the MK.)

[eschmenk]

So the defense is, everyone is awful at it, so it's ok?
Well, you have to be realistic. And no, I don't think it's awful.


It's still a more natural break than between pg 141 (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/141)/142 (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/142). Unsounded chapter starts more slowly, while pg 142 is essentially hit the ground running after jumping out of a car.

I don't know where you get that. In Erfworld characters are trying to figure out how to deal with the aftermath of something.


Also between chapter 3 and chapter 4, Duane and Sette were poisoned and scammed. It's a much longer period than between pg 141/142.

What are you talking about? Sette and Duane didn't even interact with anyone else! There was some sort of a time break there, but it just seemed to be overnight. Granted, there wasn't any time between 141 and 142.

[-D-]

What are you talking about? Sette and Duane didn't even interact with anyone else! There was some sort of a time break there, but it just seemed to be overnight. Granted, there wasn't any time between 141 and 142.
Book 1 bonus material (Sette, Duane and the priestess of Tirna short story)l? You don't have it?!


In Erfworld characters are trying to figure out how to deal with the aftermath of something.
Yeah. But usually after some time passes. Not like right this minute. Even Book 3 happens some time after Book 2 (enough to make a link). Book 4 happens, right the **** now.

[eschmenk]

Book 1 bonus material (Sette, Duane and the priestess of Tirna short story)l? You don't have it?!

I do, but I don't recall reading it and I forgot that it even existed. I don't care for Ashley's prose. Also, normally I look at the PDF, which doesn't include it.

[Welf]

Splitting book at pg 141, reminds me of a YouTube WH40k video where the Emperor of mankind says - we'll split the book into two parts, for double the profit.

http://i.imgur.com/BIn8O3J.png

Yep, feels right.
Death to GamesWorkshop! Also money!


And I'm not reading Girl Genius. I guess it might be ok if it's one of those 2 book 1 book, like GoT or Harry Potter (IIRC).

So the defense is, everyone is awful at it, so it's ok?
My points was things in Erfworld story structures/overall experience have degraded.

I agree with that. Page 141 could work as end for a book. I don't like it if books end on a cliffhanger, since it doesn't resolve something. But page 142 doesn't work as first page. Maybe a few extra pages are added in the book version to make it feel more natural or at least less artificial.

[Rockphed]

"Speedy thing kipi's in, speedy thing kipi's out."

And now I know what voice the mind of Charlie's tower will take. "I am CharDOS!"

[DataNinja]

And now I know what voice the mind of Charlie's tower will take. "I am CharDOS!"

Alternatively...

"All right, I've been thinking. When Fate gives you lemons? Don't make lemonade. Make Fate take the lemons back! Get mad! I don't want your damn lemons! What am I supposed to do with these? Demand to see the Titans! Make Fate rue the day it thought it could give Charlie lemons! Do you know who I am? I'm the tower who's going to smash your city down! With the lemons! I'm going to get my Archons to invent a Lemon Golem that'll smash your city down!"

[stsasser]

Splitting book at pg 141, reminds me of a YouTube WH40k video where the Emperor of mankind says - we'll split the book into two parts, for double the profit.

If you look at pg 141, it's just an unnatural point to break. Next page requires you to know what happened in previous scene. Book one and two started with an intro, this book starts in middle of a previous scene.

Say you are new and you read pg 142. Here is the stream of consciousness of newbie. What's leadership? Did those guys beat up the glow girl? Why is she helping them? Our ruler? They are same side? Hell is Dollamancy. And, so on.

This move seems to be addressing the criticism of book 3 being too long, by essentially cutting it in two. That's how an engineer would solve a solution of the prose being too wordy. That or extracting more money.

Also full agreement on GRR Martin. I thought I was the only one.

One thing Rob could do is just publish the rule-book. It's not like he is going to lose any Tools, since every D&D comic that I have seen, readers will fight like rabid animals over RAW vs. House Rule vs. Rule of Funny. Of course, that would make all the text updates demonstrating the inner turmoil of a Dirtmancer that had his crapgolem commit suicide by using an MK toilet redundant.

[-D-]

One thing Rob could do is just publish the rule-book. It's not like he is going to lose any Tools, since every D&D comic that I have seen, readers will fight like rabid animals over RAW vs. House Rule vs. Rule of Funny. Of course, that would make all the text updates demonstrating the inner turmoil of a Dirtmancer that had his crapgolem commit suicide by using an MK toilet redundant.
What makes you think there is a rulebook? I suspect rules are being added as convenience dictates.

[DataNinja]

One thing Rob could do is just publish the rule-book.

I have a feeling it'd suffer from the Brockian Ultra Cricket problem. Collapsing into a black hole once they're all bound into a single volume. :smallamused:

[stsasser]

What makes you think there is a rulebook? I suspect rules are being added as convenience dictates.

I think somewhere in the early days Rob said that the entire game system was mapped out.
If it never existed or he's deviated from it, he should write one and publish it.

[Narkis]

What the hell just happened?

[stsasser]

What the hell just happened?

[Looks like Charlie's Golem got sent to the Roach Motel.

[halfeye]

What the hell just happened?
I refer the honourable gentleman to the title of this thread.

[eschmenk]

[Looks like Charlie's Golem got sent to the Roach Motel.

I don't think we see what happened to it. Presumably the string connecting it to Charlie was cut, but as far as I can tell, we don't see it after the fifth panel. I think what's in the last panel is what's left of the tar baby, not Charlie's golem. I think Isaac used the wonky wrench to remove the tar from the tar baby.

Looking at it again, I changed my mind. The body shape makes it look like the tar baby (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/242), but rather than covering a doll with tar, the tar baby golem was apparently made just from pitch and was completely turned back into pitch by Claud. There wouldn't have been anything to remove the tar from nor anything other than the pitch to throw away.


I refer the honourable gentleman to the title of this thread.

There is no cliffhanger, so what does it have to do with the title of the thread?

[halfeye]

There is no cliffhanger, so what does it have to do with the title of the thread?
There isn't? we don't know what's happened, we don't know what's going to happen, and there's a nearly two month hiatus inbound. Seems like a cliffhanger to me.

[eschmenk]

I edited my earlier comment because I decided that Isaac probably threw away what's left of the action figure rather than what's left of the tar baby.


There isn't? we don't know what's happened, we don't know what's going to happen, and there's a nearly two month hiatus inbound. Seems like a cliffhanger to me.

With a cliffhanger, you usually know what happened and more importantly you know what you're afraid will happen. As you pointed out, we don't know those things, so it's not a cliffhanger.

In this case, we see that Isaac is about to ride off in a cart with the wonky wrench. We don't know if it's a good thing or a bad thing. If we don't know that much, how can it be a cliffhanger?

I don't know why the thread got the title, anyway. There were a couple of things that could have counted as cliffhangers, but most of the time the scenes just switched without anything that could count as one. Rather than Erfworld being a series of cliffhangers, they are rather rare.

[Razade]

For those not familiar with the reference in the final panel, it's from a game called The Binding of Isaac. Named after the biblical mythology of the same name with...a similar opening premise. Isaac in the game is offered up to a schizophrenic mother because he has been tainted by the wicked world. Thus making Isaac a sacrificial lamb.

I imagine that's what Rob was referencing. That Isaac (our Isaac) is going to sacrifice himself.

[guttering flame]

What a ridiculous place to halt the story. So if it's not a Cliffhanger, Eschmenk, what is it? A mysteryhanger? A ridiculouhanger? Or maybe just an empty hanger?

[-D-]

With a cliffhanger, you usually know what happened and more importantly you know what you're afraid will happen. As you pointed out, we don't know those things, so it's not a cliffhanger.

In this case, we see that Isaac is about to ride off in a cart with the wonky wrench. We don't know if it's a good thing or a bad thing. If we don't know that much, how can it be a cliffhanger?

If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck.

This ending is pretty bleak. Isaac decided to **** off somewhere. He took the Wonky Wrench, the rest of casters are catatonic, trapped under a layer of bedrock they can't dig without the Wrench. And Isaac took Tondy's corpse.

Not to mention, the fact Isaac doesn't want to cheat, makes me worry for Parson. They consider what he does cheating. They consider summoning him here cheating...

[DigoDragon]

What a ridiculous place to halt the story. So if it's not a Cliffhanger, Eschmenk, what is it? A mysteryhanger? A ridiculouhanger? Or maybe just an empty hanger?

Puts the anger in cliffhanger? :smallamused:


Hmm, maybe Isaac thought of a better way to 'cheat' and leaves Wanda behind for her own protection. Telling her not to cheat is just his odd backwards way of saying stay loyal to Parson rather than her goal of uniting the Arkentools?

[Iain]

the rest of casters are catatonic, trapped under a layer of bedrock they can't dig without the Wrench..

They aren't trapped - there's a portal right there.

I'm sure Charlie would welcome them with open arms...

(Or they could maybe switch sides to FAQ then go through.)

[-D-]

They aren't trapped - there's a portal right there.

I'm sure Charlie would welcome them with open arms...

(Or they could maybe switch sides to FAQ then go through.)
Gun arms? You know, I think you are right :smallsigh: Wanda is destined to serve Queen Jillian of Bat****.

I mean, I guess Charlie could leave Wanda alone because Fate says so, but after being a thorn in the side, I'm thinking he'll be willing to punish her in some way. Maybe just killing Claud/Ivan.


Hmm, maybe Isaac thought of a better way to 'cheat' and leaves Wanda behind for her own protection. Telling her not to cheat is just his odd backwards way of saying stay loyal to Parson rather than her goal of uniting the Arkentools?
Right now, I suspect Isaac considers even himself a cheat. And in previous update it mentions suit is Parson's cheat.

[eschmenk]

I imagine that's what Rob was referencing. That Isaac (our Isaac) is going to sacrifice himself.


Hmm, maybe Isaac thought of a better way to 'cheat' and leaves Wanda behind for her own protection. Telling her not to cheat is just his odd backwards way of saying stay loyal to Parson rather than her goal of uniting the Arkentools?

The Kafka quotes make it hard to figure things out, but I think Razade may be right. Perhaps the "cheating" he was talking about meant keeping himself alive because he said something about siding with the Grand Cosmos against yourself. He also said something about allowing the world to win rather than cheating, so perhaps he intends to die. He could have been filling himself with shockomancy in the first panel, so maybe he intends to blow himself up in a way that saves Wanda from the other casters or something. At least that's one idea.

[halfeye]

With a cliffhanger, you usually know what happened and more importantly you know what you're afraid will happen. As you pointed out, we don't know those things, so it's not a cliffhanger.
In a cliffhanger, we the audience are supposed to be kept in suspense until the next episode. I think that's what's just happened. Maybe you don't like my usage of cliffhanger, that's fine, I can live with that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cliffhanger


The two main ways for cliffhangers to keep readers/viewers coming back is to either involve characters in a suspenseful, possibly life-threatening situation, or to feature a sudden shocking revelation.

I'd say Wanda's current situation is suspenseful and threatened. With a two month hiatus, there's an obvious need for something.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

In any case, its an unfortunate situation for us, the viewers, even if most of it is for happy things like weddings, so I still vote that the title for this thread is accurate. A little too accurate....we gotta stop making these titles stop coming true, or at least make them be used to our advantage.

[DigoDragon]

The Kafka quotes make it hard to figure things out, but I think Razade may be right. Perhaps the "cheating" he was talking about meant keeping himself alive because he said something about siding with the Grand Cosmos against yourself. He also said something about allowing the world to win rather than cheating, so perhaps he intends to die. He could have been filling himself with shockomancy in the first panel, so maybe he intends to blow himself up in a way that saves Wanda from the other casters or something. At least that's one idea.

I suppose that's a fair argument. Perhaps the cosmos' victory is that Charlie's side ends, but Isaac cannot cheat his role in this victory.

I wouldn't mind seeing an Erf-shattering kaboom.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

I wouldn't mind seeing an Erf-shattering kaboom.

You mean a KRAAAKAAAKOOOM?

[DigoDragon]

You mean a KRAAAKAAAKOOOM?

Is that a... walnut? (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book+1/126)

[Emperor Demonking]

In a cliffhanger, we the audience are supposed to be kept in suspense until the next episode. I think that's what's just happened. Maybe you don't like my usage of cliffhanger, that's fine, I can live with that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cliffhanger



I'd say Wanda's current situation is suspenseful and threatened. With a two month hiatus, there's an obvious need for something.

She's watching Isaac go non-chalently away without an enemy in sight. Indeed the tarred doll seems to have just been neutralised. She's been in less threatening situations, but not recently. (Probably not in this book)

[Jasdoif]

If you look at pg 141, it's just an unnatural point to break. Next page requires you to know what happened in previous scene. Book one and two started with an intro, this book starts in middle of a previous scene.
As for the point at which it should break? I really don't see one.I think 141/142 is probably the best spot to insert a split, regardless of whether a split is a good idea. It wouldn't work as is, but 141 is already a set of single-panel summaries at the end of the Battle for Portal Park (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/141); decomposing it into wrapups of Book 3 and/or intros of Book 4, with additional material as needed, could make it viable.


There is no cliffhanger, so what does it have to do with the title of the thread?It's an unfortunate place for a cliff, and an unfortunate place for a hanger.

[Razade]

The Kafka quotes make it hard to figure things out, but I think Razade may be right. Perhaps the "cheating" he was talking about meant keeping himself alive because he said something about siding with the Grand Cosmos against yourself. He also said something about allowing the world to win rather than cheating, so perhaps he intends to die. He could have been filling himself with shockomancy in the first panel, so maybe he intends to blow himself up in a way that saves Wanda from the other casters or something. At least that's one idea.

I just don't see why he'd reference a fairly obscure Indie Video game otherwise if that wasn't the message. Not that the Binding of Isaac is obscure to people who play video games but it's certainly not a banner name like CoD or that style of game.

[Emperor Demonking]

131 seems almosy ideal for a split. 142 is perfect for the start of an alterntive comic where Bonnie, Sizemore, Ace and Antium are major characters (although everyone getting a promotion is almost too on the nose), but that's not this one.

[eschmenk]

In a cliffhanger, we the audience are supposed to be kept in suspense until the next episode. I think that's what's just happened. Maybe you don't like my usage of cliffhanger, that's fine, I can live with that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cliffhanger

I'd say Wanda's current situation is suspenseful and threatened. With a two month hiatus, there's an obvious need for something.

From the quoted Wikipedia article.


A cliffhanger or cliffhanger ending is a plot device in fiction which features a main character in a precarious or difficult dilemma, or confronted with a shocking revelation at the end of an episode of serialized fiction. A cliffhanger is hoped to ensure the audience will return to see how the characters resolve the dilemma.

Note that the first sentence can be reduced to, "A cliffhanger or cliffhanger ending is a plot device...at the end of an episode of serialized fiction. I don't see any attempt by Rob to resort to a plot device specifically at the end of the page that would be intended to ensure that the audience would return. He's just telling the story. Yes, there is some suspense, but Rob is not raising the level of suspense to an unusual level at the end of the page. I could see someone considering the previous ending where Charlie ordered the archons to shoot Wanda to be a cliffhanger, but the threat to Wanda is much less obvious now.

[halfeye]

the threat to Wanda is much less obvious now.
She doesn't have the pliers, which are her best tool. She is under bedrock in the magic kingdom, it's not clear that there's air circulated down to her. The only portal within reach is Charlie's, which is hostile. If Claude and Ivan are alive, they don't have the Wonky wrench, which is necessary to get out of the bedrock (except through Charlie's portal). If she does get out of the bedrock, she's in the Magic Kingdom, where she is under sentence of death, and the friendly portal is guarded. So no imminent threats, but a lot of more distant ones, and nowhere to go to dodge them.

[keybounce]

And now I know what voice the mind of Charlie's tower will take. "I am CharDOS!"

So it's an 8 bit tower? Is that Red Mage coming next?

[Rockphed]

So it's an 8 bit tower? Is that Red Mage coming next?

I was thinking the "Genetic Lifeform And Disk Operating System" from Portal.

[keybounce]

Yes, but if it's a Char-DOS, then it's only an 8 bit version of Glados.

Heck, I did see a version of portal for the apple 2 ...

[Leewei]

I just don't see why he'd reference a fairly obscure Indie Video game otherwise if that wasn't the message. Not that the Binding of Isaac is obscure to people who play video games but it's certainly not a banner name like CoD or that style of game.
Isaac's reference to the gate ("This dear little mother has sharp claws") seems to also be a reference to the game. The signamancy of the doll suggests the gate would kill it, given the chance, although I'm not sure why it'd want to do so.

[Razade]

Isaac's reference to the gate ("This dear little mother has sharp claws") seems to also be a reference to the game. The signamancy of the doll suggests the gate would kill it, given the chance, although I'm not sure why it'd want to do so.

I don't see it. I guess Isaac's mom but there's no gate or anything in Isaac and going through doors is usually good.

[Ubiq]

Considering the last update and then this one,


I think they actually went through with the plan to make Charlescomm a living tower, it not only refused to cooperate after that creation but tried to strike back (hence the claws remark), and wound up imprisoned in that doll for its troubles. Both attempts to cheat failed and they must move on from there.

[Officer Joy]

I don't want to read the post from Rob, because those tend to make me angry/annoyed. But when are new updates expected?

[Jasdoif]

I don't want to read the post from Rob, because those tend to make me angry/annoyed. But when are new updates expected?The news post says Rob doesn't "expect to return to our normal update schedule until Friday, September 1st."

[Officer Joy]

So there might be updates before then, but who knows when.

I'll delete my bookmark, and check here for updates.

Thanks.

[lord_khaine]

That sounds kinda lazy. What the heck is the excuse? :smallconfused:

[Razade]

That sounds kinda lazy. What the heck is the excuse? :smallconfused:

They've been working for an entire year without missing an update and the artist they hired is moving on to another, better paying, job so they're getting his replacement up to speed on everything and taking a (unpaid) vacation to do it.

[DataNinja]

They've been working for an entire year without missing an update and the artist they hired is moving on to another, better paying, job so they're getting his replacement up to speed on everything and taking a (unpaid) vacation to do it.

Also, there's going to be a wedding.

[lord_khaine]

Alright those two things does make the rather long break very reasonable.

[Razade]

Also, there's going to be a wedding.

Yeah, in another country no less.

People are allowed to take breaks even just for mental health reasons. There shouldn't really need to be any other reason than "I need some mental health time". The fact that Rob has soiled his good will with a lot of readers makes it hard, I completely understand. But telling someone they're lazy for wanting a vacation for any reason especially when they've been consistently working...seems rather cruel to me.

[keybounce]

I know Rob has said that he doesn't like to consider his failure to produce a page on time the cause of other people's income loss, but that is the way it is. So, he pushes for another page.

I like Amber's method. She allocates 12 missed updates a year, 6 for sick days, and 6 for "time off". Rob could just as easily say "Our target is 80 pages per year, plan your salary expectations around that".

---

Meanwhile: I just learned something today. Does Wanda's coakamancy give her control of frogs and toads? If so, can she control what the dwarves do?

[Rockphed]

Meanwhile: I just learned something today. Does Wanda's coakamancy give her control of frogs and toads? If so, can she control what the dwarves do?

Is the connection here "Toady One The Great", creator of Dwarf Fortress? Because otherwise I am completely lost.

[keybounce]

Yep :-)

Did you know this forum has a 10 character minimum post length?

[Wayson]

I know Rob has said that he doesn't like to consider his failure to produce a page on time the cause of other people's income loss, but that is the way it is. So, he pushes for another page.

I like Amber's method. She allocates 12 missed updates a year, 6 for sick days, and 6 for "time off". Rob could just as easily say "Our target is 80 pages per year, plan your salary expectations around that".

Ashley from Unsounded does something that to my mind is even better. She release one chapter at a time and then takes a few months off in between chapters. Gives her time to decompress, write the next chapter, take vacations, etc, and once she starts again she meets the schedule without issue. When she chooses to release two or three pages at once because the scene flows better when it's not broken up over multiple days, she simply doesn't release any additional pages for the days that were 'accelerated', giving her a one week break sometimes.

[Anteros]

I'm always amazed by the sheer volume some artists can put out in comparison to another. When you look at things like Tower of God where the artist is basically putting out 10-15 well drawn comics every week and then compare it to something like Goblins or Erfworld where they constantly struggle to maintain a fraction of that pace.

That said, if Erfworld has to take a break to get a new artist or whatever then so be it. It's not like they can update without one. I think they probably could have avoided this current backlash if they simply gave the fan base a bit more warning that the hiatus was coming up though.

[lord_khaine]

Do think the artist behind unsounded is the one that maintains most impressive ratio between quality of drawins and speed of updates though. ToG does have more pages, but i dont think they have nearly the same quality as Ashley.

[Anteros]

Do think the artist behind unsounded is the one that maintains most impressive ratio between quality of drawins and speed of updates though. ToG does have more pages, but i dont think they have nearly the same quality as Ashley.

I don't follow Unsounded so I don't really have grounds to say. I'm sure both are good.

[eschmenk]

I'm always amazed by the sheer volume some artists can put out in comparison to another. When you look at things like Tower of God where the artist is basically putting out 10-15 well drawn comics every week and then compare it to something like Goblins or Erfworld where they constantly struggle to maintain a fraction of that pace.

Most people would be so bad or slow at it that they wouldn't even try. To me, those who can turn out pages slowly are merely somewhere on a continuum between those who can create good pages quickly and those who can't do it at all. The people who are really good are kind of amazing to me, but that's true for a lot of careers and hobbies and such.

[Doran]

Most people would be so bad or slow at it that they wouldn't even try. To me, those who can turn out pages slowly are merely somewhere on a continuum between those who can create good pages quickly and those who can't do it at all. The people who are really good are kind of amazing to me, but that's true for a lot of careers and hobbies and such.

In addition, webcomics like Gunnerkrigg Court, Unsounded, or Kill Six Billion Demons are at an advantage over webcomics like Girl Genius or Erfworld - the writer is the artist, so they can be thinking of the plot line while sketching and vice versa, and they don't need to split comic income across two or more households.

Erfworld has had Jamie for Book 1, Xin for Book 2, David for the first half of Book 3, Xin+Lauri, for the second half, and now Xin+? for Book 4.

There's also one misconception I've seen about the $1800 per online update - the team don't get that as a lump sum. Instead it's effectively store credit for the merchandise, so whatever % profit they make off the books etc. would be their real income from it.

[Aquillion]

In addition, webcomics like Gunnerkrigg Court, Unsounded, or Kill Six Billion Demons are at an advantage over webcomics like Girl Genius or Erfworld - the writer is the artist, so they can be thinking of the plot line while sketching and vice versa, and they don't need to split comic income across two or more households.Girl Genius technically merges the jobs of writer and artist, but it's unusual in that respect - it has a professional colorist, Cheyenne Wright, and it also has both Phil and Kaja as full-time writers and artists both, so while that part of the income technically is only going to one "household", it's income for two people (since if they weren't both working on it, one of them could be working elsewhere instead.) Of course, having three people working on it full-time, two of them married, is probably also why Girl Genius is able to update so rapidly and reliably on-time. It doesn't hurt that all three are extremely experienced (they were writing comics all the way back in the 80's.)

Of the others, Unsounded and I believe Gunnerkrigg Court take regularly, lengthy hiatuses, while Abaddon is a fiery demonic machine in an envelope of human flesh and does not need to eat or sleep, stopping only to breathe for an instant every third day.

(More seriously, he has made it clear that he his essentially pouring his entire life into the comic to reach the current levels of output solo.)

[danelsan]

While you can't really compare the quality of the artwork with some of the top webcomics out there, the sheer creative stamina of Zach Weinersmith is just ridiculous. Due to occasional bonus comics, his Saturday Morning Breakfast Cereal updates more than daily! While also making artwork for his occasional books, and a guest comic here and there. AND organizing multiple Festivals of Bad Ad Hoc Hypothesis. While being a father to, if I'm not mistaken, two small children. The dude is a neverending unstoppable engine of illustrated nerdy jokes.

[Anteros]

I think it's probably a whole lot harder to write and draw at the same time than some people are thinking. If anything splitting those responsibilities should speed things up.

SUI from ToG has taken a few hiatus, but it's typically because of health reasons. Also his breaks are typically short and very far between. The guy probably updates several hundred/thousand pages worth of material between breaks.

[DigoDragon]

I'm always amazed by the sheer volume some artists can put out in comparison to another. When you look at things like Tower of God where the artist is basically putting out 10-15 well drawn comics every week and then compare it to something like Goblins or Erfworld where they constantly struggle to maintain a fraction of that pace.

I know that struggle personally. I used to get artwork done at a pretty decent pace years back, but these days I'm barely getting one drawing every 2-3 weeks. I assume most of these big volume artists don't have a lot of family they have to care and feed, or lengthy work shifts at a job unrelated to art. In theory.

Cause then I'll find out one does and I'm like "Welp. Not sure if they robot or I'm failing time." :smalltongue:

[keybounce]

For sheer volume of output, I don't think anything can compete with whatever Hussey is. Homestuck was kinda ... excessive :-).

(AI project? Robot? Some sort of human-idea-maker with automated-inking system? Flood fills to just draw the backgrounds and stamp sprites on?)

[The Glyphstone]

Howard Tayler needs to be mentioned in any list of comic producers with longevity/consistency, of course. Shlock Mercenary has updated daily, on time, for over seventeen years at this point. The only time he had a delay in posting was when his server host site building caught on fire.

[eschmenk]

Howard Tayler needs to be mentioned in any list of comic producers with longevity/consistency, of course. Shlock Mercenary has updated daily, on time, for over seventeen years at this point. The only time he had a delay in posting was when his server host site building caught on fire.

Yet Bill Holbrook (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Holbrook) has about three times Howard Tayler's output. He has two comics that are syndicated in newspapers, plus one webcomic (http://www.kevinandkell.com/) that's been updating online daily for 22 years. He doesn't add additional rows to his comic like Howard Tayler does sometimes, though. Howard Tayler does other things in addition to writing Schlock Mercenary, too. I think it would be too much of a grind for him, otherwise.

[Anteros]

I know that struggle personally. I used to get artwork done at a pretty decent pace years back, but these days I'm barely getting one drawing every 2-3 weeks. I assume most of these big volume artists don't have a lot of family they have to care and feed, or lengthy work shifts at a job unrelated to art. In theory.

Cause then I'll find out one does and I'm like "Welp. Not sure if they robot or I'm failing time." :smalltongue:

I think for most of them drawing is their actual full time job.

[runeghost]

This thread title becomes even more appropriate every time I see it.

[keybounce]

Oh no, now this thread won't hit 45 days idle before the next comic posts :-)

[Atomic Knight]

Remember when Rob was going to give us "backer story updates every Sunday" of the hiatus? Starting in early July? Same.

[hajo]

I assume most of these big volume artists don't have ..
lengthy work shifts at a job unrelated to art.
Mark Stanley, author of Freefall (http://freefall.purrsia.com/) (now with 3000+ strips)
is working as an engineer at some powerplant (https://www.crosstimecafe.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=10177&p=294126&hilit=power%20plant#p294126).

[Kantaki]

Remember when Rob was going to give us "backer story updates every Sunday" of the hiatus? Starting in early July? Same.

He said he woul try. Can you prove he didn't?:smalltongue:
He totally didn't.:smallbiggrin:

[Rockphed]

Mark Stanley, author of Freefall (http://freefall.purrsia.com/) (now with 3000+ strips)
is working as an engineer at some powerplant (https://www.crosstimecafe.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=10177&p=294126&hilit=power%20plant#p294126).

He works (or worked, that post is from 2011) for Detroit Edison? I lived in near Detroit almost all my life. I had no idea we produced one of the best webcomic-ers. I always figured he was an engineer of some sort, but never knew where to look for that information. I guess this explains some of the early jokes in the comic.

[Otomodachi]

While you can't really compare the quality of the artwork with some of the top webcomics out there, the sheer creative stamina of Zach Weinersmith is just ridiculous. Due to occasional bonus comics, his Saturday Morning Breakfast Cereal updates more than daily! While also making artwork for his occasional books, and a guest comic here and there. AND organizing multiple Festivals of Bad Ad Hoc Hypothesis. While being a father to, if I'm not mistaken, two small children. The dude is a neverending unstoppable engine of illustrated nerdy jokes.

Don't forget, he used to have a sketch comedy troupe on youtube, too.

[Jasdoif]

The news post says Rob doesn't "expect to return to our normal update schedule until Friday, September 1st."Or not. (http://www.erfworld.com/blog/view/56965/i-need-more-time) Admittedly, "author's headspace problem" sounds like a very apt description of the current state of the plot.

[Welf]

I completely forgot it was supposed to come back today. Which is good, because expectations mean disappointment.
Also seems serious, he didn't even try to blame a perfect excuse like a massive city levelling hurricane. :smallfrown:

[Razade]

I completely forgot it was supposed to come back today. Which is good, because expectations mean disappointment.
Also seems serious, he didn't even try to blame a perfect excuse like a massive city levelling hurricane. :smallfrown:

Considering he lives in Virginia, not Houston, I don't see why he'd go for that excuse. He did mention it messing with Xin, which...is fair. Glad she's safe.

[Anteros]

Huh...that was actually really respectful and mature. It's way easier to respect "I need more time to deliver the story I want" than just blaming other people for your delays.

If it means the story gets back on track then I'm glad he's taking the extra time. It's been a mess lately.

[Killer Angel]

Huh...that was actually really respectful and mature. It's way easier to respect "I need more time to deliver the story I want" than just blaming other people for your delays.

At least it's a honest approach on the old, known habit.
The inability to keep a decent pace is dishartening.

[Kantaki]

So...
Optimistic estimate we get new Erfworld around January/February next year?:smalltongue:

[Rockphed]

So...
Optimistic estimate we get new Erfworld around January/February next year?:smalltongue:

I'm expecting a Halloween 2018 update.

[-D-]

So...
Optimistic estimate we get new Erfworld around January/February next year?:smalltongue:

What is this... Erfworld... thing?

[Zalabim]

At least it's a honest approach on the old, known habit.
The inability to keep a decent pace is dishartening.

All things considered, I've never felt like commenting on any webcomic's ability to keep a consistent pace. TV series getting canceled, comics on extended hiatus, books going quiet for years, authors dying mid-series, sure. I just can't find it in my heart to be bothered by belated webcomics. Especially not here. I'll read it when it gets here. I'll talk about it when it's interesting. Otherwise, I'm sure I can find something else to do.

[keybounce]

And then, there's things like Futurama or Family Guy that come back after hiatus.

[Otomodachi]

I was already at the point of feeling a good bit of fatigue at the constant twists and turns in Erfworld, no comment on how many of good quality and how many were distracting wastes. It's going to be REALLY hard to maintain any sense of enthusiasm trying to go back in after a month and a half.

[halfeye]

It's going to be REALLY hard to maintain any sense of enthusiasm trying to go back in after a month and a half.

A month and a half? since when?

[Razade]

A month and a half? since when?

It was gone the entire month of August. That's one month. It's now halfway into September and we still don't have a comic. That's a month and a half.

[halfeye]

It was gone the entire month of August. That's one month. It's now halfway into September and we still don't have a comic. That's a month and a half.

Is that all? I thought it ended July or June sometime. I thought I remembered it was supposed to be down for six weeks and then start up at the start of September (so not June), but then it hasn't started yet. It's not alone, there are some other hiatii (Code name Hunter, lately Slightly Damned, Poppy Opposum).

Just checked, last published comic dated 2017.7.4, so that's 2.5 moths.

[Kantaki]

Last update was early July.
So it's closer to two and a half months now..

[Anteros]

At this point I probably won't even bother going back to it when it comes back. At least not until this thread inevitably catches my attention again. I swear I would have quit this comic a dozen times already if it wasn't for the conversations in this thread.

[-D-]

At this point I probably won't even bother going back to it when it comes back. At least not until this thread inevitably catches my attention again. I swear I would have quit this comic a dozen times already if it wasn't for the conversations in this thread.
Same sentiment here. I swear this thread is only thing that keeps me remotely attracted to Erfworld. That and vain hope it will get better.

[Chromascope3D]

Voof. I gotta say, I was always debating with myself if I should drop this comic, but force of habit always kept bringing me back. Guess Rob's cured me of that now. :smalltongue:

[Quild]

I guess it won't be a surprise that I feel the same.
I really liked the first book, but things started being really messy in the second.

[guttering flame]

Maybe (good) inspiration will strike. :smalltongue: