Barbarian/Rogue Shield/Grappler

[Khrysaes]

Hello,

My DM will be starting a new Out of the Abyss campaign in a few months and I was hoping to get a head start on character planning, but I am not sure how to go about this.

I want to make a Barbarian/Rogue with shield master and grapple.

Other than the 1 rogue for expertise athletics, what is recommended for this build type?

I also considered other things my DM has previously approved, like Revised-Spell-less Ranger, which could get me the Riposte maneuver, and some superiority dice, as well as other goodies. Deepstalker/Assassin sounds fun too.

And BattleMaster which does the same

[Sexyshoeless]

Great place to start for any wannabe grappler http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?468737-The-Grappler-s-Manual-%282-0%29-Grappling-in-5th-Edition

Things to watch for: Sneak attack requires finesse weapon, but does not require you use dex. Since you'll be pumping STR for your grapples/shoves, might as well grab a short sword and also shank for STR damage.

I'd recommend 1 level rogue tops early on. Barb str and rage advantage should be plenty to tide you over through the early levels and you REALLY want Extra attack ASAP for grapple and shove in same turn shenanigans. If your group can afford it I might recommend Barb 5 to start going into Rog 1, and then whatever multiclass aberration suits your fancy from there. I might go into fighter from there for Action surge, or continue down the barbarian road for more damage, or rogue to advance sneak attack and mobility.

For subclasses, I like Bear totem myself, but Berserker might be good if the bonus attack from frenzy can be used for your shoving/grappling/to get an additional shot in.

[Findulidas]

Two nice options the guide doesnt mention (unless it has been updated).

If you can pick the UA feats then picking brawny, which gives expertise in athletics, +1 strength, count as if you were one size larger for the purpose of determining your carrying capacity, is a a good choice. Infact if they allow it then just going a straight strength fighter might be the best choice, due to all the extra attacks allowing for more times to grapple/shove. Also picking one or possibly two feats for grappling wont hurt a strength based fighter much, multiclassing is likely to do more harm. You arent likely to actually need the strength advantage in barbarian much if you both have expertise and high strength plus loads of extra attacks as a fighter.

Another good choice is to go lizardfolk due to it having an inherent unarmed attack that does 1d6+strength damage, which is more than what you get from tavern brawler. This means you can grapple two targets and still bite the heads off. Lizardfolk also has several other nice racial features and the stat bonuses are decent, both con and wisdom certainly helps.

[Naanomi]

A deuregar fighter with Brawny can even enlarge themselves

[Citan]

Hello,

My DM will be starting a new Out of the Abyss campaign in a few months and I was hoping to get a head start on character planning, but I am not sure how to go about this.

I want to make a Barbarian/Rogue with shield master and grapple.

Other than the 1 rogue for expertise athletics, what is recommended for this build type?

I also considered other things my DM has previously approved, like Revised-Spell-less Ranger, which could get me the Riposte maneuver, and some superiority dice, as well as other goodies. Deepstalker/Assassin sounds fun too.

And BattleMaster which does the same
I'd say go as far as Rogue 5, or even Rogue 7 because Uncanny Dodge and Evasion are great features (especially paired with Danger Sense).

Then you can either improve further your speed (Mobile feat, Long Death Monk dip although it's MAD), or your Initiative (14+ CHA and go Bard 2 for Jack of All Trades and Rogue's Swashbuckler archetype), or your offense (Battlemaster 3, Spellless Hunter Ranger 3 with Horde Breaker), or your out of rage utility (any caster or Ritual Caster feat).

[Dudewithknives]

I am currently playing in an OOTA game, and playing a grappler in it. Here are things I have learned.

1. Advantage is far more important than expertise with athletics checks.

So far, nothing in the game has even had a check as good as mine, much less a better one.

2. Extra attack is extremely important, so is being able to use your bonus attack for either a grapple or an attack.

3. You have to have one hand free to grapple, and you can't drop a shield as a free action, that can cause issues. So if you want to use the shield you can either use it as an improvised weapon and attack with it while you grapple with the other hand, or play something that has a bite attack. You can make it work but it has issues.

4. No spoiler really, but lizardfolk are great, free natural armor, can make their own weapons and things from dead bodies, bite attack, but they do not have darkvision... that is not good in this campaign. Again you can make it work, but it can cause issues.

5. No matter what class you plan to go with, take a level of barbarian. Rage is just plain gold. Advantage on strength checks is hard to get, that and all the normal rage goodness.

6. If your GM is more lenient on things I know a perfect class for you, but it is from the DM'S guild. I do not plug people's nonofficial products here, even though I am a Patreon for the guy that made it, so I will pm it to you if you want. It is built to be a grappler and brawler type class but it is still balanced.

In the end grappling can be amazing and very fun to play, but it takes some setup, and it does limit your mobility, but it also helps the group out. If you have a group that is good with teamwork it is great. If you are in a more everyone for themselves kind of group, not a great.

[Naanomi]

Off the OP request but the grappler build I like: battlemaster 5/lorebard 15... get tavern brawler, trip attack... so you hit someone, trip them, then grapple them all in one sweeping maneuver. Bard gives you expertise, enlarge, and cutting words (to insult your opponant's grapple check down)

[Khrysaes]

Thank you all for the advice.

I think I have narrowed it down to a Bugbear Barbarian, and gain Expertise through brawny. Powerful Build x3 :)

Unless i can find a consistant way to get advantage on the grapple check. like rage.

I guess Eldritch knight or dueregar would work.

If I multiclass it is likely to be a fighter or Revised Spell-Less ranger, or both, for some maneuvers and dice.

I am currently looking into different splits for multiclassing. any suggestions?

[Citan]

Thank you all for the advice.

I think I have narrowed it down to a Bugbear Barbarian, and gain Expertise through brawny. Powerful Build x3 :)

Unless i can find a consistant way to get advantage on the grapple check. like rage.

I guess Eldritch knight or dueregar would work.

If I multiclass it is likely to be a fighter or Revised Spell-Less ranger, or both, for some maneuvers and dice.

I am currently looking into different splits for multiclassing. any suggestions?
Note that I don't know what bugbear is as a race, nor "brawny".
If you want Ranger it means decent WIS which opens new options.
Start Fighter if you want heavy armor, otherwise Barbarian.
Start aiming towards Barb 5 / Rogue 2 first EXCEPT if...
a) you managed to get 14 DEX for medium armor and
b) you don't plan on using a shield (which is probable because of grappler)...
In which case start Barb 1 / Monk 1 then Barb 5 and Rogue. Since you want to be a grappler you will like having a permanent bonus action attack as early as possible, and having a lower die is compensated by your Rage bonus. You still want Barb 5 (10 feet movement, Extra Attack) and Rogue 2 (Cunning Action) whatever happens.

Beyond that though...

Brutal Grappler
(Bear+Elk or Bear) Barbarian 12 / Thief Rogue 5 / Champion Fighter 3 with Healer feat: you get great damage thanks to Brutal Critical on 19-20, extra damage and mobility from Rogue together with great reaction (even as Barb, there are some things you want to pre-halve XD) and healer feat as bonus action.
If you don't care about Uncanny Dodge, go Barb 14 for Bear (and take Sentinel) to become a great defender, or Eagle to perform some crazy stunts... Or go take Spellless Ranger 2 for some Precision.

Speedy Tank
Bear+Bear Barbarian 7 / Thief Rogue 5 / Long Death Monk 3 / Battlemaster 3 / Spellless Ranger 2:
Between advantage on initiative and +20 speed bonus before Dashing, you get some pretty nasty engagement power.
Between Dodge as bonus action (for a ki), THP on kill and the classic near-all resistance, you should prove a very difficult enemy to put down.
Especially if you add to that Parry (manoeuver) or Defensive Duelist or Uncanny Dodge.
Not caring about the latter? Grab one level in Barb for another ASI and more HP.

[Findulidas]

and gain Expertise through brawny. Powerful Build x3 :)


I would just like to point out that once you have double proficiency or expertise in a skill you cannot increase it further by doubling it in a similar fashion. It doesnt stack. So if you take brawny you wont get more from the expertise in bard or rogue. Some people are not aware of this Ive noticed.

[Naanomi]

I would just like to point out that once you have double proficiency or expertise in a skill you cannot increase it further by doubling it in a similar fashion. It doesnt stack. So if you take brawny you wont get more from the expertise in bard or rogue. Some people are not aware of this Ive noticed.
The triple lifting weight bonus likely stacks and is what is being referenced here (Brawny + powerful build race + bear totem)

[Squeeq]

I'm actually playing a similar character myself! I'm going for a fighter/rogue, who trips to gain advantage on attacks, and trigger sneak attacks on lone opponents. I'm going fighter 6 (only 5 levels so far) for bonus attack and an extra ASI, and then pumping the rest into rogue. Once I hit reliable talent and I have my expertise, it's going to start to get very very difficult for things to avoid being tripped. Barbarian probably WOULD be a good pull for me, but I'm worried it'll mess up my skill growth too much, even for just the single level for rage.

For you, I might go more for rogue - if you're attacking with advantage due to a trip or people nearby (or because you're a barbarian using reckless attack), you might as well grab those extra damage dice on top of all of the excellent rogue abilities that you can get.

[Mochan]

I'm playing this character in my SKT campaign right now. I built it like this:


Human
STR - 14
Dex - 16 (+2 on first ASI)
Con - 16
Int - 8
Wis - 8
Cha - 10
Feat: Shield Master

Barb 1
Rogue 5 (Arcane Trickster)

Cantrips: Booming Blade, Create Bonfire, Minor Illusion
Level 1 Spell: Find Familiar, Disguise Self, Silent Image, Sleep


(I'm currently only at Level 6)


This gives you:

AC 19
Rage 2x per day (STR advantage, Resistance to Physical damage)
Uncanny Dodge (half damage on any attack)
Shield Master Shove and bonuses (Dex Save of +6, save for no damage)
Expertise in Athletics (+8)


Advantage at will for Sneak Attacks due to familiar, or by grapple-proning
Primary Attack of Booming Blade with a Rapier - 2d8 + 3d6 + 4, +2d8 on move

The ability to cast a Bonfire and shove your opponent's face into it (2d8 dmg)

I would like to note that it is glorious to cast a Bonfire, grapple someone prone and shove them into it, then booming blade sneak attack them while they are burning.

Note that you can't Rage while casting Bonfire or Booming Blade
But the familiar helps mitigate this for your first Grapple Checks at least if you aren't raging.




This is a really fun character, can help the party almost auto win against Large or smaller boss enemies, does good damage, and has lots of fun stupid role-playing and thiefly stealing options outside of combat.

[GlenSmash!]

I'm playing this character in my SKT campaign right now. I built it like this:


Human
STR - 14
Dex - 16 (+2 on first ASI)
Con - 16
Int - 8
Wis - 8
Cha - 10
Feat: Shield Master

Barb 1
Rogue 5 (Arcane Trickster)

Cantrips: Booming Blade, Create Bonfire, Minor Illusion
Level 1 Spell: Find Familiar, Disguise Self, Silent Image, Sleep


(I'm currently only at Level 6)


This gives you:

AC 19
Rage 2x per day (STR advantage, Resistance to Physical damage)
Uncanny Dodge (half damage on any attack)
Shield Master Shove and bonuses (Dex Save of +6, save for no damage)
Expertise in Athletics (+8)


Advantage at will for Sneak Attacks due to familiar, or by grapple-proning
Primary Attack of Booming Blade with a Rapier - 2d8 + 3d6 + 4, +2d8 on move

The ability to cast a Bonfire and shove your opponent's face into it (2d8 dmg)

I would like to note that it is glorious to cast a Bonfire, grapple someone prone and shove them into it, then booming blade sneak attack them while they are burning.

Note that you can't Rage while casting Bonfire or Booming Blade
But the familiar helps mitigate this for your first Grapple Checks at least if you aren't raging.




This is a really fun character, can help the party almost auto win against Large or smaller boss enemies, does good damage, and has lots of fun stupid role-playing and thiefly stealing options outside of combat.

Are familiar's able to help with Grappling? I thought to use the help action you have to be able to perform that action, and I thought Creatures are able to automatically escape Grapples if they are two sizes larger than than the grappler and I thought all the Familiars are Tiny.

[Khrysaes]

The triple lifting weight bonus likely stacks and is what is being referenced here (Brawny + powerful build race + bear totem)

This is what I meant. Although, while i know things like Powerful build + bear totem is quadrupal lifting weight, does it continue stacking exponentially like that?

So with Powerful Build = x2, + Bear totem = x4, +Brawny = x8, + Enhance Ability = x16, + Enlarge = x32?

Edit: I want to use the enemies as improvised weapons.

[Mochan]

I describe it as the familiar distracting the opponent while I grapple it, similar to how a familiar can grant you advantage on an attack by distracting an opponent. The DMs I have played with all accept this reasoning.

[Naanomi]

So with Powerful Build = x2, + Bear totem = x4, +Brawny = x8, + Enhance Ability = x16, + Enlarge = x32?
Read books to 30 Strength; lift what... 28,800 lbs? Not quite a Stonehenge stone, but more than a subway car?

[djreynolds]

Hello,

My DM will be starting a new Out of the Abyss campaign in a few months and I was hoping to get a head start on character planning, but I am not sure how to go about this.

I want to make a Barbarian/Rogue with shield master and grapple.

Other than the 1 rogue for expertise athletics, what is recommended for this build type?

I also considered other things my DM has previously approved, like Revised-Spell-less Ranger, which could get me the Riposte maneuver, and some superiority dice, as well as other goodies. Deepstalker/Assassin sounds fun too.

And BattleMaster which does the same

http://burrowowl.net/2014/10/the-5e-savage-duelist/ I have used this as my base for a lot of builds

Now rogue is awesome and I love them, but I tried my own version of a strength based monk and it rocked

Now if you use open hand monk for this build, it works. Because the 3rd perk has no save and it cannot take reactions until the end of your next turn, so you don't have to worry about your low wisdom score here, but stunning fist will be so,so

But without a reaction means you can walk away from that target after punching or spearing him after you FOB

The key is to begin as a barbarian, I suggest 3-4 levels of bear totem and then the rest monk. Your rage damage reduction and the open hand technique #3 will allow you to walk away, making up for your low AC, which will hover around 15-16, good enough

And if you go dwarf, you can snag small stature (same as brawny) and dwarven resilience, both of which also give +1 to strength and con

4 barbarian (bear)/ 8 open hand monk 18/14/18/8/13/8 take small stature, dwarven resilience, and then +1str/+1con, athletics score is +12, 3 rages, 8 Ki points, 12HD to heal while dodging, and 24HP monk healing stuff, AC16

[Specter]

Mind your hands: grappling requires a free one, which you won't have with both a weapon and a shield. So you can either drop your weapon when you want to grapple, or use the shield itself to attack (improvised weapon - you'll want Tavern Brawler).

[Zene]

My current favorite (and highest-level) character is a barbarian/rogue grappler.

Here's what I've learned:

Definitely read the grappler guide 2.0 that someone linked earlier.
Make sure your DM likes grappling, and understands the rules. I've been gimped by angry/uninformed DMs waaaay to many times to count. If your DM doesn't want you to grapple, your grappling build will suck.
You will get hit, a lot. Raging and bear totem are awesome.
Get adamantine armor as soon as you can; crits aren't fun.
There will be times grappling doesn't make sense; make sure you have other options (like attacking with a finesse weapon using strength, so you get reckless attack, sneak attack, and rage bonus damage all at once).
Having a Shield actually isn't that important. I prefer to hold a finesse weapon in one hand, keep the other one free for grappling. That allows me to pummel on grappled opponents using sneak attack. If I ever want to grapple a second opponent, I can just drop the weapon as a free action. Can't do that with a shield.
You will have good uses for your bonus action: raging, dashing mostly. No need to bonus action grapple with shield master. Shield Master is a trap IMO. Everything it does you'll do better just with class features (like Evasion and Danger Sense, for example).
If you get a way to fly (winged boots, eagle whistle, etc) then don't take Thief rogue, as the only real benefit of it you'll use is the increased jump distance. Assassin kind of stinks too. I went Arcane Trickster, and it's actually pretty great, even though you can't cast while raging. Still nice for utility, and for the occasional fight at higher levels where it makes more sense to case Enlarge on yourself than to rage.
For progression, I recommend Barbarian to 5 for extra attack, then Rogue to 7. After that you have some choices. Personally I went Fighter 2 for action surge and +1 to AC. But continuing in Barbarian for advantage on initiative, or in Rogue for some of its higher-level features, are totally valid too.
For race: If your DM is one that strictly follows carrying rules, you want a race with the Powerful Build feature (Goliath, Full Orc, Firbolg, Bugbear) so you can drag heavier creatures. Most DM's don't micromanage that, though. So go with a race that has great tanking/damage features (half-orc is my personal favorite).
Don't worry about ASIs; you are grappling with advantage and expertise, and attacking with advantage due to reckless, so those +1s on stat rolls really don't do much. Feats like Athlete, Lucky, Sentinel, Mage Slayer, Alert... those are all pretty great.


Edit: Oh also if you can convince someone in the party to cast Haste, Enlarge, or both on you, you will be a friggin' force of nature.

[Khrysaes]

I found it! a great way to get consistent Advantage on strength checks with out more than a couple levels of multiclassing.

Mystic!

It has two disciplines Mastery of Force, and Brute force, from the Wu jen and Immortal order's specifically, that grant advantage to athletics. Mastery of Force is all Strength checks.

Immortal also has Giant's Growth discipline, which changes size from medium or small to Large for concentration up to 1 minute.

It also has a ton of other features and uses, I especially like Nomadic Mind.

Mastery of Light and Dark(Wu Jen), combined with Warlock 2(Devil's Sight) is almost as good as a Warlock/Shadow Sorcerer, which could be a good way to get advantage.

So 1 level, of say Immortal order, I could get permanent advantage to athletics, cast a pseudo enlarge 2 times per long rest(more with more levels), and be proficient in any skill I currently am not at will. Or tool or language.

2 levels gets me telepathy, although I would probably take mind meld talent anyways.

3 levels and i can get another discipline, either the darkness one, or say, the one that allows my telepathy to span a group.

Alternatively, if I go Wu Jen, I can cast spells with my psi points, and still get the giant growth discipline. And the nomadic mind discipline.

So for 1 level, Immortal is probably my best dip.

1 mystic, Battle master fighter, Deep stalker ranger, something something rogue?

If i didn't take 11 rogue, I would be wasting the nice combination reliable talent has with Nomadic mind.

Hmm.. Questions.
1: Can you use someone you are grappling as an improvised weapon?
2: Can you combine said improvised weapon with Mastery of wood's animate weapon?...

[Khrysaes]

Sorry for the double post, but in the above post in short is:

I want to make a Bugbear Grappler, with at least 1 level of immortal mystic for at will advantage on athletics checks. Also of bonus is enlarge 2/long rest.

After that I am at a lost of what level split I should do;

I am considering 2-4 levels of Spell-Less Revised Ranger.

5-12 levels of BattleMaster Fighter

and 2-12 levels of Some sort of Rogue. Maybe scout?

See, I really like Nomadic Mind Discipline, and it meshes incredibly well with Reliable talent from rogue, it also meshes well with the main focus of the build, Athletics, because not being able to get lower than a 20(when you get reliable talent) is pretty handy. Although, It may not be needed with constant advantage.

The fighter and ranger would be for the maneuvers, fighting styles, and other goodies. Extra attack from fighter.

at the moment, I am thinking 3 Ranger, 1 mystic. Then either 11/5, or 8/8. Rogue/Fighter. or 12/4 Fighter/rogue.

Of course, That is a 20 level build, and I would need to figure out a good leveling order for this monstrosity.

[Quoxis]

A deuregar fighter with Brawny can even enlarge themselves

And, being a dwarf, pick the grapple-centric battlerager barbarian subclass.

[GlenSmash!]

And, being a dwarf, pick the grapple-centric battlerager barbarian subclass.

Unfortunate one cannot Concentrate on Enlarge while Raging, even if enlarge is a duergar racial spell.

[Quoxis]

Unfortunate one cannot Concentrate on Enlarge while Raging, even if enlarge is a duergar racial spell.

"Additionally, when you use the Attack action to grapple a creature, the target takes 3 piercing damage if your grapple check succeeds."

You enlarge, grapple, deal minor damage, and if your enlargement ends you fall back on rage for advantage on grappling (it's a strength check after all). Also works in case you weren't able to make a short rest between two fights.

While we're at it, why not make an mc'd warlock battlerager? Grab armor of agathys, cast it before raging, then grapple something, deal damage, and then see the despair in your opponents eyes: breaking free is almost impossible (high str+advantage), and by attacking they take damage from both AoA and the spiked armor. Lose-Lose-situation.

[GlenSmash!]

"Additionally, when you use the Attack action to grapple a creature, the target takes 3 piercing damage if your grapple check succeeds."

You enlarge, grapple, deal minor damage, and if your enlargement ends you fall back on rage for advantage on grappling (it's a strength check after all). Also works in case you weren't able to make a short rest between two fights.

I see your point now. I thought you wanted the advantage from rage on the grapple checks.

As an aside I've always disliked that that that Piercing Damage was a static 3. Something that scaled would have been much better. Or something that applied every round the creature was grappled. If I'm trying to grapple the big guy, while the party handles the scrubs, 3 damage at the start of the grapple is unlikely to have a meaningful impact to the encounter.

[Khrysaes]

And, being a dwarf, pick the grapple-centric battlerager barbarian subclass.

If I were to go barbarian, which is the likely choice if I can't get 1 level of mystic approved, I would probably be a totem barbarian. The damage resistance is very nice, and I think it would be better than 3 damage when I make grapple checks. Like GlenSmash! said though, if it were a 1d6 dice roll, and occurred as an extra to attacks while grappled, or just as constant damage when in a grapple, I may reconsider it. Unfortunately that is not the case.

At current I am looking at 1 mystic/12 Arcane Trickster/7 Battlemaster.

The mystic with the Brute force discipline gets a more permanent advantage to athletics checks, and Giant Growth discipline is like enlarge, and will be usable 2 times per long rest for a 1 level investment. 3 if I opt to drop down to 6 battlemaster. Nomadic mind and Reliable talent makes me a great jack of all trades in the skill department.

Alternatively, if the DM doesn't require Int to multiclass, I may toss it to 11 Arcane trickster/5 Battlemaster/3 Hunter Spell-less Revised Ranger/1 mystic. Which will boost damage a bit, and give me some more mileage with maneuvers.

[cptn. communisn]

class:
4 barbarian-totem bear
3 fighter-brute-tunnel tighter
7 rogue-assassin
6 monk-shadow
race:
variant human
feats in order of importance:
grappler
sentinel
blade mastery
other:
have a spell-caster able to cast enlarge
explanation:
any caster you are fighting can be easily grappled and silenced via shadow monk, theoretically infinite sneak attack,
+17 to athletics and advantage, the odds of someone escaping and fleeing from you is nearly impossible because +17 to athletics and sentinel strikes, any breath attacks taken while grappling automatically deal 1/4 of what they should have, lets say someone hits your comrade 5 times that is 5 attacks you do against them
conclusion:
arguable the best tank/don't hit other people

[R.Shackleford]

I would either just go straight barbarian or straight rogue. No need to multiclass.

Or Cleric. Cleric is my favorite grapple class.

Grab Prodigy on a human, half-orc, or half-elf for expertise athletics if you aren't a rogue.

Rogue, just make a strength based rogue with medium armor.