Being Bit in the Ass by Dump Stat decisions

[ZorroGames]

Since TINSTAAFL works always what are the risks of Dump Stats as a Practice?

I assume that saves including spell effects might be the big wrinkle.

What vulnerabilities (especially spell driven?) come from having Low:

CH?

WI?

IN?

CO?

DE?

ST?

Gracias in advance or helping me understand the tradeoffs.

Edit, example:

How does havig a ST16, DE 15, CO 16 IN 8, WI 10, CH 10 Mountain Dwarf Fighter differ in risks from a ST 17, DE 15, CO 17, IN 8, WI8, CH 8 one?

[mephnick]

CHA saves can be quite disabling (Banishment etc) but they're also not very common. I'd recommend shoring up WIS first.

Dumping WIS is probably the worst because a lot of spells target it and it can be very disabling.

INT is a gamble, but generally safe. Very few monsters use INT saves, but the few that do will kill you for dumping it. Likelihood of it coming up is small.

CON saves are generally important and you never want to dump CON anyway so it's not even really a decision.

Dumping DEX will just cause you damage, but are the most common saves to make, so relatively important.

STR should be worse to dump but they threw DEX characters yet another bone and allowed DEX checks to escape grapples. If that wasn't the case you'd see a lot more STR on builds.

[PeteNutButter]

Penalties for dumping:

Str: One of the easier stats to dump. A lot of effects call for str or dex saves, and the ones that do call for str specifically aren't all that punishing. Most things can be used with acrobatics instead of athletics. Just don't climb cliffs or swim in rapids.

Dex: Initiative. Common saving throw for damage. It hurts a little to dump this.

Con: Just don't. Never ever. If you dump con. I will never heal you. Your hit points are that thing that keep you in the game.

Int: Practically no drawback here. Saves are super rare, and mostly illusions. For those RPers that hate the idea of an 8 int because they don't want their character to be dumb... just a reminder that a 10 int is still very dumb. Think of the most average int person you know... :smalltongue:

Wis: Common saves that take you out of the fight and perception. Hurts to dump. As an added note, since passive perception isn't a roll there is a good chance this comes up frequently if you happen to be walking around with a 14 over a 15 passive perception.

Cha: A little worse than int to dump as saves are a kind of sucky to fail, with things like possession, but overall not making that big of a difference.

Overall dumping a stat compared to making it a 10 is preferable as the -1 on the die roll that only comes up once a session or once every 3 sessions, is vastly outweighed by having +1 more to things like attack rolls/AC which come up 20 or more times a session.

EDIT: The idea of people being "bit in the ass" by dumping a stat is in part due to the very flawed way people recognize patterns. We get the benefit of having +1 more to hit and damage for 5 sessions and then get hit by a spell that takes out of a fight, "Oh no, my one weakness!" ...None of that changes that it is still the correct play to dump stats in most circumstances. We focus on the one failure and not the dozens of attacks we hit with because we are better at attacking.

[Findulidas]

There are basically roughly three major saves in the form of con, wis and dex and three minor in the form of int, cha and strength. All the classes are balanced around having one major and one minor. Obviously there are diffrences between each major and diffrences between each minor, but the majors are almost always better to have than the minors. Hence if you are a dex fighter with high dex and proficiency in con then taking resilience in wisdom is a good idea, because then you have a solid score in all the major saves.

[Beelzebubba]

RE those stat blocks, the one with 17's requires 3 ASI's to get to the same scores that the one with 16's can do in 2. So you'll be weaker overall in raw attribute bonuses.

Additionally, Wisdom saves are plentiful, so you'll be charmed, commanded, compulsed, confused, mind read, dominated, enthralled, fearful, given a geas, held, hypnotized, suggested, polymorphed, scried, slowed, mocked, weirded out, and imprisoned - very very very easily.

You'll be sitting out of a good part of any combat with mind control magic, if not attacking your own party. Taking the 'Resilient: Wisdom' feat will be almost mandatory, and I'd say to grab that by level 6 or 8. If your DM doesn't allow feats, that weakness and it will only get worse over time.

Int saves are rare, but an Intellect Devourer or Mind Flayer will snarf down your brain without breaking a sweat. It won't be much of a meal, but you'll be too dead to be offended. So be extra careful in the Underdark.

If you went low Dex, you'll be able to mitigate the weaknesses largely with heavy armor and grabbing the Acrobatics skill. You'll often eat full damage from, spells like Fireball, but you have a lot of hit points, so again - the weakness is covered by a strength.

[MrStabby]

It might not be much of an answer but it is DM/campaign dependant.

For example as a DM I tend to make saves/non-skill checks for each stat equally important (excluding concentration saves). NPC casters will opt for spells prepared that target a range of saves.

That said, there are still some trends worth noting.
1) cha saves are usually banishment type effects. If you are a Nova type character then this hurts less - your impact without using resources is low.

1b) a similar logic goes for int and wis saves, they generally incapacitate rather than damage. Unlike banishment effects they do leave you around to take damage though.

2) a lot of str saves are ensnaring effects that restrict movement. Failing these is particularly bad for melee focussed characters. Even the restrained condition isn't too bad if you can use things like sacred flame that don't need an attack roll.

3) con and dex tend to be more damage based. A fighter archer might be OK with lower con as they will still be on a d10 hit die and won't expect to be tanking on the front lines. Likewise a str based barbarian might tollerate more failed Dex saves and just be happy to soak the damage on his enormous bundle of hp.

4) abilities also play a part. Fiend warlock may worry less about dex saves as she may have temp HP for example. A party with a bard (song of rest) or a life cleric may find hp loss to be less of a burden to the adventuring day.

[ZorroGames]

RE those stat blocks, the one with 17's requires 3 ASI's to get to the same scores that the one with 16's can do in 2. So you'll be weaker overall in raw attribute {snip}

Sorry but i am not sure i understand this.

17>19 each, 19>20 +1 both stats? Three.

16>18 each, 18>20 each. Four.

Is that what you are saying?

Starting with 15+2 versus 14+2 for Mountain Dwarf Fighter?

[ZorroGames]

Penalties for dumping:

{snip}

EDIT: The idea of people being "bit in the ass" by dumping a stat is in part due to the very flawed way people recognize patterns. We get the benefit of having +1 more to hit and damage for 5 sessions and then get hit by a spell that takes out of a fight, "Oh no, my one weakness!" ...None of that changes that it is still the correct play to dump stats in most circumstances. We focus on the one failure and not the dozens of attacks we hit with because we are better at attacking.

Is this the principle that drives insurance? (Or maybe over-insuring actually.) The perception that preventing the rare but potentially catastrophic has over-riding priority?

[JellyPooga]

Con: Just don't. Never ever. If you dump con. I will never heal you. Your hit points are that thing that keep you in the game.

Dumping Con is generally a bad idea, but not because of HP. Plenty of Class Features and roles make HP a minor concern. It makes little odds having a heap of HP if you rarely lose them due to high AC, tactical positioning (e.g. being highly mobile or a back-line party member) or spend your combats concealed, invisible, air-borne or otherwise untouchable or an unattractive target (e.g. with Spirit Guardian or Fire Shield active).

The crippling nature of failing a Con Save, on the other hand, makes most of the defences that protect your HP redundant and that's much more worthy of concern.

[coredump]

We were playing an AL mod. At the end the PCs had to work together to carry out a statue in order to succeed in the mission. You had to have a combined Str score of XX in order to do it. (I think it was tier 3, but maybe tier 2). I had an 18 Str, and no one else was close. Rogues, casters, dex fighter, etc.
Even after I summoned my Steed, we weren't close..... luckily we talked the DM into some weird "Hey, maybe this will work..." ideas.

[Tehnar]

Dumping stats has no practical effect in 5e if the only thing the dumped stat affect is skills or saves.

A difference in a modifier of 2 between stats means tah for every 10 saving throws you take on one saving throw you will notice the difference between a dumped and a non dumped stat. IMO it is very rare to roll more then 5 saving throws of one type per session, so at best you will maybe notice the effect every 2 to 3 sessions, if that.

[deathadder99]

Dumping stats has no practical effect in 5e if the only thing the dumped stat affect is skills or saves.

A difference in a modifier of 2 between stats means tah for every 10 saving throws you take on one saving throw you will notice the difference between a dumped and a non dumped stat. IMO it is very rare to roll more then 5 saving throws of one type per session, so at best you will maybe notice the effect every 2 to 3 sessions, if that.

It's the case in most d20 systems, there is a small difference in the fact that you can't actually pass any DC20 or DC25 saves with a dump stat(20 isn't an auto success). Proficiency tends to be more useful than shoring up the saves though.

[Naanomi]

There are times when dumping STR for DEX does bite you (sometimes literally) when you can't replace one for the other... I think at least one 'swollowed whole' mechanic is based solely on strength checks

[CursedRhubarb]

Strength​ can be a less painful one to dump but depending on your character it can get annoying when you are constantly over your carry capacity. Strength​ of 8 is only 120"lbs" you can lug around and that includes weapons, armor, and clothes you wear. As well as money. Friggin coin will weigh you down with all the copper you get. 50 coins =1"lbs" and that adds up fast over an adventure period between town visits. And a Bag of Holding can only hold up to 500"lbs" and that fills quickly. Tends to run out of weight room before space in the bag.

[PeteNutButter]

Is this the principle that drives insurance? (Or maybe over-insuring actually.) The perception that preventing the rare but potentially catastrophic has over-riding priority?

Yep. It comes down to personality really. Those high in trait neuroticism crave security more than others. It has effects even in D&D, as these folks will be likely to be overly cautious and not want to dump stats. The same trait drives folks to over-insure. Important to note that since it's tied to someone's natural proclivities, it explains why it is so hard to actually persuade certain folks to dump stats.


Dumping Con is generally a bad idea, but not because of HP. Plenty of Class Features and roles make HP a minor concern. It makes little odds having a heap of HP if you rarely lose them due to high AC, tactical positioning (e.g. being highly mobile or a back-line party member) or spend your combats concealed, invisible, air-borne or otherwise untouchable or an unattractive target (e.g. with Spirit Guardian or Fire Shield active).

The crippling nature of failing a Con Save, on the other hand, makes most of the defences that protect your HP redundant and that's much more worthy of concern.

While I don't disagree with anything here, a character with an 8 or 10 con simply doesn't have the hit point to survive a single attack against some tier appropriate monsters. This is the problem most bladesingers have when they try to engage. Crits autohit, and can one or two-shot.

My buddy had a 10 con rogue with just 28 hit points at level 5. We called him little mario, because he could only take one hit before going unconscious.

[Naanomi]

I agree, only my least combat focused builds will dare even 12 Con, 14 being the norm

[JellyPooga]

While I don't disagree with anything here, a character with an 8 or 10 con simply doesn't have the hit point to survive a single attack against some tier appropriate monsters. This is the problem most bladesingers have when they try to engage. Crits autohit, and can one or two-shot.

My buddy had a 10 con rogue with just 28 hit points at level 5. We called him little mario, because he could only take one hit before going unconscious.

Consider the cost of increasing that 28Hp to 33 or 38 and the impact that would have though. Using point buy, the difference between 10 and 14 Con is 5pts; enough to bump two other stats from 14 to 15 with a point spare. That's a significant cost if you're floating +1 racial mods from Half-Elf, for example.

I tend to agree that ditching Con for most characters is a bad idea, but it can be the right choice.

[Breashios]

In my personal experience I don't remember it happening. I sure do remember when I built a character that was all about willpower when a Naga took control of my character - AND I HATED IT SO MUCH the DM made an exception for me and turned my roll into an auto-success, but then promptly set my character in a moral dilemma.

If a low stat ever bit me, I don't recall. That is what a well balanced party is for - overcoming the challenges any one character would inevitably fail due to their essential weaknesses.

[ZorroGames]

Thanks again for the input.

[Beelzebubba]

Sorry but i am not sure i understand this.

17>19 each, 19>20 +1 both stats? Three.

16>18 each, 18>20 each. Four.

Is that what you are saying?

Starting with 15+2 versus 14+2 for Mountain Dwarf Fighter?

Sorry, I wasn't that great at making my point.

Yeah. You're overall a weaker character by pushing your STR and CON past 16. The low INT and WIS will create more opportunities to fail, especially since saving throws on your weak stats tend to put you out of a combat when you fail them. It does no good to have that high of a STR and CON if you're *always* taken out in the first round by some jerk Cleric with Hold Person or some monster with a Fear effect.

The 16 in STR and CON is *plenty* for a starting character. It will get you through to your first ASI at level 4 perfectly, and even if you need to grab another feat then, you'll be effective until level 8 too. Also, when you up your CON later on, you get the HP that it grants at every level retroactively. So you don't have to push it like that early.

Because of the Bounded Accuracy, you don't even really need the 20 in your main stat. It's nice, but it's not essential. And, let's say over your career you get hit with a bunch of DC15 Will saves. Changing your save from a -1 to a 0 means you will save on a 15-20, rather than a 16-20, which makes your saves happen 20% more often. So, I think there's a bit more to gain by covering your weaknesses than exaggerating your strengths.

So, I'm not a fan of min-maxing that way. It creates 'glass cannons'. The game is a bit better with a more balanced of a character though.

Is that a clearer way of saying it?

[2D8HP]

I really haven't felt that my favorite PC, a Half-elf, Fighter1/Rogue 3 (Swashbuckler) with Str 14, Dex 16, Con 10, Int 8, Wis 12, & Cha 16, hasn't lost much by having relatively low CON and INT.

With "short rests", and "second wind", not having potentially higher HP just doesn't hurt as much as it would in 0e/1e/BX.

INT remains a stat for Magic-Users/Wizards.

What does hurt more in 5e is a low WIS (Perception, etc.). If I wasn't hopeful of getting that 3rd level in Rogue and putting CHA to use as a Swashbuckler, I'd have started with a lower CHA, and a higher WIS.

CON is very important when you play a "meat shield" Barbarian, otherwise I think DEX and WIS are more important.

STR may often be dumped as well, but Athletics checks come up a lot.

A Rogue with Expertise in Athletics and Perception mitigates low STR and WIS, but then you're fixing your weaknesses rather than enhancing your strengths.

Unlike 1e, where STR & CON are where it's at (unless you're a Mage), I really can't think of any 5e PC that doesn't benefit from a high DEX.

For Barbarian I'd say your priority stats are DEX, then CON (Unarmored Defense is awesome), then STR, then WIS.

For a melee Fighter: STR, DEX, CON then WIS.

For a missile Fighter: DEX, CON, WIS and then STR.

For a Rogue: DEX, WIS, then CON (unless you're planning on becoming a Swashbuckler in which case you want CHA).

IME, DM's have you make Athletics checks a lot so STR comes up more than I'd expected, CHA on the other hand comes up even less than INT checks, which surprised me (DM's just don't create many social encounters) .

What if you play a Spell-caster?

Sorry I don't play 'em, so I've no tips.

[ZorroGames]

Sorry, I wasn't that great at making my point.

Yeah. You're overall a weaker character by pushing your STR and CON past 16. The low INT and WIS will create more opportunities to fail, especially since saving throws on your weak stats tend to put you out of a combat when you fail them. It does no good to have that high of a STR and CON if you're *always* taken out in the first round by some jerk Cleric with Hold Person or some monster with a Fear effect.

The 16 in STR and CON is *plenty* for a starting character. It will get you through to your first ASI at level 4 perfectly, and even if you need to grab another feat then, you'll be effective until level 8 too. Also, when you up your CON later on, you get the HP that it grants at every level retroactively. So you don't have to push it like that early.

Because of the Bounded Accuracy, you don't even really need the 20 in your main stat. It's nice, but it's not essential. And, let's say over your career you get hit with a bunch of DC15 Will saves. Changing your save from a -1 to a 0 means you will save on a 15-20, rather than a 16-20, which makes your saves happen 20% more often. So, I think there's a bit more to gain by covering your weaknesses than exaggerating your strengths.

So, I'm not a fan of min-maxing that way. It creates 'glass cannons'. The game is a bit better with a more balanced of a character though.

Is that a clearer way of saying it?

Actually, yes.

Appreciate the explanation.