PDA

View Full Version : D&D Lich



Balkash
2007-08-04, 01:37 PM
Ok, so in the monster manual for 3.5 (im pretty sure its 3.5), the template for a lich says that is must be any evil alignment. Yet, when i researched it, i found that Archliches are good liches, and that liches can be good (though it is very hard to keep good alignment since becoming a lich is a very evil thing) and usually good liches became such due to a need for revenge or to finish some quest in they didnt in life. well ive got a lich character, and even before i knew i might be able to be my old alignment (Chaotic Neutral), he became a lich so that he could topple this ruler and not have to rush or worry. so basically my question is can anyone tell me, for sure, if a 3.5 edition lich possibly not be evil?

Setra
2007-08-04, 01:44 PM
Sorry to be off topic, but there is a forum specifically for D&D.

Gorbash Kazdar
2007-08-04, 03:50 PM
Moved on out.

Ichneumon
2007-08-04, 03:57 PM
It is certainly possible. Here I quote from Libris Mortis:


Though conceptually an oxymoron, the idea of a good-aligned creature who chooses undead immortality over a normal lifespan is a compelling one. Such creatures typically dedicate themselves to some noble cause--protection of a sacred location, the tending of knowledge or learning, and so forth.

Now, next in Libris Mortis, there are stats for a Good Lich, but quoting them would be against copyright.

EDIT: Let I assure you of the fact that the differences between the two templates are minimal and you can just use the normal lich template.

horseboy
2007-08-04, 05:22 PM
Man, didn't we just do this one? :smallannoyed:

Draz74
2007-08-04, 05:56 PM
The inconsistency comes from various campaign settings or worlds, where the nature of undead-ness is slightly different.

The Archlich is a Faerun-specific concept. Or at least it was at some time in the past.

Regardless of the Archlich, the amount of inherent "evil-ness" in undead creatures and lichdom varies widely. Any world that includes the unmodified Dread Necromancer class seems to accept that neutral beings can become liches. Some settings have "Deathless" or similar good-aligned, positive-energy undead; in those cases, good liches certainly make sense.

RandomNPC
2007-08-04, 06:50 PM
i'm still stuborn about a lich being evil just so my players don't go "im gonna hide my soul over here then march across three continents to go to war." then become an annoyingly hard to kill opponent. thats reserved for the BBEG.

i'm all for a lich good guy, just don't tell my players. but then the idea of self sacrifice..... it would take a lot. a paladin may leap in the face of a dragon to save his friends. a lich paladin will leap into the face of a dragon because he knows he will be back a week or two later. not as much fun.

anywho, a lich doesn't need divine evil gods to help, not specifically, but i've been toying with the idea of a good deity that doesn't mind undead granting lichdom instead of sainthood.

there was also a few magic items, i remember a necklace on the archmage of menzoberanzen (sp) that keeps him at the peak of his age, among other things. i assume it would make a human early twentys, and an elf in the 200-300s (i think, i don't have the age chart here) if your story doesn't have good lichs you can look for something like that.

Evil DM Mark3
2007-08-04, 06:58 PM
Whenever I do Liches, Vampires, Mummies or any other undead except perhaps ghosts I use the following justification.

"The torment of the undead existence, the half life between the living and the grave, is too much for mind and soul to bear. It warps and twists the viewpoint until the creature is evil, regardless of what they where in life. Often the creature cannot perceive the change, turning from elven paladin to vampire blackguard almost without noticing the change in its own mentality."

Lord_Kimboat
2007-08-04, 07:05 PM
I've got a solution for you Random. Make the becoming of a good lich so godawful expensive that it isn't worth while. I mean, Paladin 1 leaps into the dragon face because he's a good lich. Unfortunately, the making of his philactory (is that spelled right?) cost him 20,000gp and must be recharged with 7,000gp of stuff when used. Also, his body suffers stat damage when it regenerates.

Meanwhile, the monk, that was also killed by the dragon, loses 5,500gp and is raised like normal adventurers.

bosssmiley
2007-08-04, 07:27 PM
Man, didn't we just do this one? :smallannoyed:

Yes, yes we did. Not more than a few weeks ago. Use the Force (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/search.php) mook. :smallwink:

Personal take: 2nd Ed fluff involved the Lich sacrificing the souls of others to bind his life force to his phylactery. Using other's souls for one's own ends = evil in my book. Cheers.

You might want to download the pdf of "Van Richten's Guide to the Lich" from paizo.com for a "Ravenloft" take on it. Reminds me, still haven't read his "Guide to the Ancient Dead" yet... :smallwink:

Belial_the_Leveler
2007-08-05, 05:57 AM
Naah, if you want to be immortal, plane-shift to the Astral Plane. No aging there. Then, use Astral Projection to create a new body in the material plane and do your adventures. You won't age and you can't die in the material plane-though someone could kill your body in the astral if it is not defended.

Dausuul
2007-08-05, 03:19 PM
I've got a solution for you Random. Make the becoming of a good lich so godawful expensive that it isn't worth while. I mean, Paladin 1 leaps into the dragon face because he's a good lich. Unfortunately, the making of his philactory (is that spelled right?) cost him 20,000gp and must be recharged with 7,000gp of stuff when used. Also, his body suffers stat damage when it regenerates.

Meanwhile, the monk, that was also killed by the dragon, loses 5,500gp and is raised like normal adventurers.

Hmm, I think my preferred approach for PC liches would be to take a leaf out of 2E's book and say that a lich that has been driven into its phylactery must have a living creature of the same race to possess before it can get out. (I think that's how it worked in 2E. If not, it should have been.) That prevents the old "I bury my phylactery under a mountain in the deepest wilderness" trick... particularly if you require extended physical contact for the possession to work.

Then, of course, any time your PC lich starts getting arrogant about how he can't die, somebody swipes his phylactery. Heh.

Oh, and good liches? Gah. Hate 'em. I know good-aligned liches are legal by RAW, but as far as I'm concerned, turning into a lich corrupts you forever. You may think you're still good, but you are in fact EVIL.

Starbuck_II
2007-08-05, 04:34 PM
Hmm, I think my preferred approach for PC liches would be to take a leaf out of 2E's book and say that a lich that has been driven into its phylactery must have a living creature of the same race to possess before it can get out. (I think that's how it worked in 2E. If not, it should have been.) That prevents the old "I bury my phylactery under a mountain in the deepest wilderness" trick... particularly if you require extended physical contact for the possession to work.

Then, of course, any time your PC lich starts getting arrogant about how he can't die, somebody swipes his phylactery. Heh.

Oh, and good liches? Gah. Hate 'em. I know good-aligned liches are legal by RAW, but as far as I'm concerned, turning into a lich corrupts you forever. You may think you're still good, but you are in fact EVIL.

Granted, everyone will think he is good too. He will act like a good hero though detect as evil? Well, Paladins can't prove he is evil since detect spells detect whether undead first.

Maerok
2007-08-05, 05:11 PM
I've got a solution for you Random. Make the becoming of a good lich so godawful expensive that it isn't worth while. I mean, Paladin 1 leaps into the dragon face because he's a good lich. Unfortunately, the making of his philactory (is that spelled right?) cost him 20,000gp and must be recharged with 7,000gp of stuff when used. Also, his body suffers stat damage when it regenerates.

Meanwhile, the monk, that was also killed by the dragon, loses 5,500gp and is raised like normal adventurers.

Lich is only available to CL 11+ characters. It costs 120,000 gp and 4,800 XP to make a phylactery in the first place, which could have been used for some nifty gear. He already has a regen time of 1d10, where it misses out on more gp and XP. Plus, someone could loot the body.

horseboy
2007-08-05, 06:34 PM
Granted, everyone will think he is good too. He will act like a good hero though detect as evil? Well, Paladins can't prove he is evil since detect spells detect whether undead first.

You know, that's an interesting point. What would be the legal ramifications to so much magic everywhere? Would detect evil from a paladin be admissible in court?
Lawyer: "You claim to be a paladin, correct?"
Paladin: "Yes."
Lawyer: "How do we know this?"
*Smite Evil*
Judge: "Please stop smiting the lawyers, we're running out of them."
Lawyer2: "So you claim that my defendant the currently former wizard and liche 'Ub3rpwnzr' registers as evil. How do we know this?"
Paladin: I swore an oath to tell the truth. I said it, and it's true. Otherwise I wouldn't still be a paladin. We need to reestablish that?"
Lawer2 (Backing away): No, no, we can take your word for it."

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-08-06, 12:41 AM
The process of becomming a litch is an inherintly evil process, including the sacrifice of an unwilling sentient being and ending with your own suicide to finish the process. It requires several evil acts to be able to gather the necessary ingredients, which are too gruesome and abominatable to mention in polite company. Therefore, the process of becomming a litch is only available to those who already have no morals or qualms concerning these evil acts. If one starts out not evil, and still does these, he will be corrupted both by the horrid acts and by the magic inherent in the transformation so that the end result is quite evil.

It is not a matter of undead being inherently evil, the ritual which is required to become a litch certainly is.

lukelightning
2007-08-06, 09:00 AM
Personally I would rule that the only way a lich could become good and redeem itself from evil would be to destroy itself and cease to exist. I see a lich's very existance as a perversion of natural laws and against all that is Good; its very act of being is an Evil Act.

This seems unpopular with many people, but I would argue that allowing good liches to exist would be like Luke Skywalker turning to the darkside and joining Darth Vader and still being a hero. Or Frodo giving himself to One Ring and saying "now all I need is a helm of opposite alignment and I'll be good!" Sorry, it doesn't work that way.

lord_khaine
2007-08-06, 09:39 AM
actualy yes it does, all being a lich entails is to have hidden your lifeforce in a suposedly safe place, all the rest is just different versions of fluff and house rules, including things like having to kill some poor bugger to complete the transformation.

nagora
2007-08-06, 03:26 PM
Natural life is Good=>undead is unnatural life => undeath opposes life =>Undead are Evil. QED.

What to do if you are Good and find that you are undead: kill yourself. Properly.

Dausuul
2007-08-06, 08:43 PM
Granted, everyone will think he is good too. He will act like a good hero though detect as evil? Well, Paladins can't prove he is evil since detect spells detect whether undead first.

Actually, what I meant was that you might cling to some twisted justification for your wicked deeds that would, in your mind, make your actions perfectly right and good... but you would still, in truth, be an evil undead horror doing evil horrible things.

In my world (and yes, this is a house rule, I know), becoming a lich corrupts your mind and spirit. Becoming a lich is the equivalent of Gandalf taking the One Ring and using it. No matter how good your intentions are to start with, you end up a Dark Lord.

Just Alex
2007-08-06, 09:00 PM
Man, I run Liches weird compared to you guys. The last lich my party ran into was just a crochety old man that wanted to get those damn kids off his proverbial lawn.

Belteshazzar
2007-08-06, 09:22 PM
Same here. My undead come in all colors well most colors anyway. If you want to be a good spellslinging skeleton then sure but it is going to force you to make some choices. Do you take the easy evil way? Or do you earn your immortality the hard way with sanctity intact?

If you try to be a good aligned litch or mummy I would make the character work for it harder than Mr. Collects Babies for Satan who is on a fast track program to undead badassery.

Jasdoif
2007-08-06, 09:28 PM
Granted, everyone will think he is good too. He will act like a good hero though detect as evil? Well, Paladins can't prove he is evil since detect spells detect whether undead first.This is where a cleric with detect good prepared would be useful.

Collin152
2007-08-06, 09:33 PM
What to do if you are Good and find that you are undead: kill yourself. Properly.

Yes, but how many people when faced with what is good and what is easy choose the more difficult path?

horseboy
2007-08-06, 09:42 PM
I'm surprised noone has brought it up. The easiest modern day example would be the philosopher's stone from Full Metal Alchemist. Do you sacrifice all those people for your own personal power?

nagora
2007-08-07, 05:47 AM
Yes, but how many people when faced with what is good and what is easy choose the more difficult path?

"I will diminish, and go into the West and remain Galadriel."

puppyavenger
2007-08-07, 10:13 AM
I make it so that anyone of any alignment can become a lich. It's just that the easist way is to is to sacrifice a puppies soul/ transmut your loyal companions into a mural of pain that forces them to exist forever in pain/ etc.
But there are plaenty of other ways, like just filling your soul with negative energy, or twisting the negative energy oround you so that you are unaffected by entrophy.

dungeon_munky
2007-08-07, 10:35 AM
What I have done is create a good lich equivalent. It becomes an outsider rather than undead, and it has good abilities; lay on hands, aura of courage. The final part of the ritual sacrificing your life in a good act deemed worthy by the resident good god (I use Pelor.) Naturally this results in many deaths of people doing acts that Pelor doesn't think is good enough.

lukelightning
2007-08-07, 01:24 PM
The final part of the ritual sacrificing your life in a good act deemed worthy by the resident good god (I use Pelor.) Naturally this results in many deaths of people doing acts that Pelor doesn't think is good enough.

Or these poor deluded fools have been tricked by an evil lich-to-be into thinking they are sacrificing themselves for Pelor...but instead they are sacrificing themselves to power the creation of the evil lich-to-be's phylactery.

Starbuck_II
2007-08-07, 03:58 PM
This is where a cleric with detect good prepared would be useful.

Nuertal Cleric or Evil Cleric?
If Evil Cleric: Why is anyone trrusting him.

If Neutral: Paladin won't like him casting evil spells.

darkzucchini
2007-08-07, 04:55 PM
I actually like the idea of good undead. While they should be the exception and not the rule, I can see a wizard prolonging his life by taking on the mantle of undeath for some beneficial purpose, such as completing his research to cure a plague that is spreading across the world or to become the immortal guardian of some immensely evil and powerful artifact that has the potential to deal great harm to the world. These acts are all rather selfless and are good reasons to expand your life by becoming undead. Of course, it all depends on what methods can be used by the undead wannabe to attain lichdom.

puppyavenger
2007-08-09, 10:36 AM
Also remember undead also detect as good, chaotic and lawful.

Matthew
2007-08-09, 06:24 PM
Also remember undead also detect as good, chaotic and lawful.

What is this with reference to?

Duke Malagigi
2007-08-09, 07:14 PM
In the campaign setting I'm designing there are two non-evil liches. One of these two archliches was a powerful necromancer and paladin king named Artakhshathra who ruled over a satrapy roughly the size and culture of modern Turkey. It had, and still has, lush green gardens and farmlands. The people of this country frequently used White or Benign Necromancy to mend wounds and aid in agriculture. Sadly, certain necromantically inclined fiends took offence and tried to lay waste to this kingdom. Livestock rotted from the inside out, plant life withered and died and humans and humanoids alike slowly bled to death from horrific viruses and bacteria.


Realizing that their was no other course of action left Artakhshathra brought all survivors in his capital, including his family and guests Doctor Jonathan Ellington and Barthold Dehmer into the throne room. The king directed their attention towards an alabaster basin in the room's center. Here king Artakhshathra explained that he had discovered a way to save the lives of all of the people inside his country. But he said that the one who performs this ritual would have his soul bound to the stone and would rise as a desiccated corpse. King Artakhshathra then stated that it would require the willing sacrifice of an honest man. A man who can be blamed for no malice or cruelty.


He then turned towards his wife Minu, and publicly dissolved their marriage of sixteen years, thus granting her permission to remarry. Artakhshathra then passed the throne onto his eldest and wisest child, his 15-year-old daughter. He then conducted the ritual of attaining lichdom he developed. By doing so he mentally and physically tormented himself with his own necromantic knowledge. This caused his blood to burn and his flesh to melt. The poisons he ingested accelerated the process. But by doing this he cured his people, their livestock and re grew their plants. The health and vitality that he once possessed, often times called Positive or Life Energy, was flushed out of king Artakhshathra's body and into the contents of the alabaster basin. It was then replaced with what necromantic scholars call Negative or Death Energy, which sustains his existence as one of the undead. So now, Artakhshathra, both aspirant and sacrifice, walks as a benevolent undead while his flesh, life and blood heals and protects the living. If both he and his phylactery (the alabaster basin) are destroyed his people would be left defenseless against the diseases he cured, should such plagues return and all farmland and gardens would become a barren waste land. If you add his years as a living man to his years as a lich Artakhshathra is only 46 years-old.

Would you consider this an acceptable method and reason for a Good aligned character becoming a lich?

estradling
2007-08-10, 02:09 PM
In the campaign setting I'm designing there are two non-evil liches. One of these two archliches was a powerful necromancer and paladin king named Artakhshathra who ruled over a satrapy roughly the size and culture of modern Turkey. It had, and still has, lush green gardens and farmlands. The people of this country frequently used White or Benign Necromancy to mend wounds and aid in agriculture. Sadly, certain necromantically inclined fiends took offence and tried to lay waste to this kingdom. Livestock rotted from the inside out, plant life withered and died and humans and humanoids alike slowly bled to death from horrific viruses and bacteria.


Realizing that their was no other course of action left Artakhshathra brought all survivors in his capital, including his family and guests Doctor Jonathan Ellington and Barthold Dehmer into the throne room. The king directed their attention towards an alabaster basin in the room's center. Here king Artakhshathra explained that he had discovered a way to save the lives of all of the people inside his country. But he said that the one who performs this ritual would have his soul bound to the stone and would rise as a desiccated corpse. King Artakhshathra then stated that it would require the willing sacrifice of an honest man. A man who can be blamed for no malice or cruelty.


He then turned towards his wife Minu, and publicly dissolved their marriage of sixteen years, thus granting her permission to remarry. Artakhshathra then passed the throne onto his eldest and wisest child, his 15-year-old daughter. He then conducted the ritual of attaining lichdom he developed. By doing so he mentally and physically tormented himself with his own necromantic knowledge. This caused his blood to burn and his flesh to melt. The poisons he ingested accelerated the process. But by doing this he cured his people, their livestock and re grew their plants. The health and vitality that he once possessed, often times called Positive or Life Energy, was flushed out of king Artakhshathra's body and into the contents of the alabaster basin. It was then replaced with what necromantic scholars call Negative or Death Energy, which sustains his existence as one of the undead. So now, Artakhshathra, both aspirant and sacrifice, walks as a benevolent undead while his flesh, life and blood heals and protects the living. If both he and his phylactery (the alabaster basin) are destroyed his people would be left defenseless against the diseases he cured, should such plagues return and all farmland and gardens would become a barren waste land. If you add his years as a living man to his years as a lich Artakhshathra is only 46 years-old.

Would you consider this an acceptable method and reason for a Good aligned character becoming a lich?


That is a cool story. I like it alot. But it requires a house ruling to make it happen. As a DM I would go for it, but by RAW it requires an unspeakably evil act to become a Lich and I am just not seeing that here

Arbitrarity
2007-08-10, 02:18 PM
What is this with reference to?

Detect evil detects undead, and Detect good/chaotic/lawful are "as detect evil", IIRC.

mudbunny
2007-08-10, 02:20 PM
That is a cool story. I like it alot. But it requires a house ruling to make it happen. As a DM I would go for it, but by RAW it requires an unspeakably evil act to become a Lich and I am just not seeing that here

I have to agree. The story is nice, but I see no unspeakably evil acts in it.

Duke Malagigi
2007-08-10, 05:25 PM
That is a cool story. I like it alot. But it requires a house ruling to make it happen. As a DM I would go for it, but by RAW it requires an unspeakably evil act to become a Lich and I am just not seeing that here

I just made that house ruling. Now what kind of PCs do you think would try to kill good king Artakhshathra? Also if you want a list of his main planar enemies see below. Note that some of these fiends are either from Dicefreaks (like Lixer) or as interpreted by Dicefreaks. So if anyone wonders why Lilith is listed as Lawful Evil just read the Gates of Hell, and hope you don't suffer sanity damage.

Chaotic Evil
Orcus
Demogorgon
Baphomet
Apollyon
Abraxas
Eldanoth
Pazuzu
Yeenoghu
Neutral Evil
Mydianchlarus
Typhus
Cholerix
Charon
Lament
Lawful Evil
Lilith
Asmodeus
Levithan
Beelzebub
Mephistopheles
Belial
Lixer
Caim
Amudascius
Rosier
Malphas
Leonar

Duke Malagigi
2007-08-10, 05:27 PM
I have to agree. The story is nice, but I see no unspeakably evil acts in it.

That was the point. Artakhshathra was a good who became a lich without being corrupted and without harming others.

Arang
2007-08-10, 06:12 PM
That was the point. Artakhshathra was a good who became a lich without being corrupted and without harming others.

The problem is that the process of becoming a lich is so vague, it only mentions "an unspeakably evil act". Some think that becoming a lich is unspeakably evil, others think that doing something unspeakably evil is a prerequisite for becoming a lich, and some think the unspeakably evil act is just fluff.

Duke Malagigi
2007-08-10, 06:52 PM
The problem is that the process of becoming a lich is so vague, it only mentions "an unspeakably evil act". Some think that becoming a lich is unspeakably evil, others think that doing something unspeakably evil is a prerequisite for becoming a lich, and some think the unspeakably evil act is just fluff.

In Second Edition the potion required to achive lichdom was what the process so vile in nature. This link (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13101182&postcount=7) will give some information. And no Artakhshathra did not make or even use this potion. While the act its self might not be evil, the exact methods use to achive that goal could be. Now you see why the typical lich is irredeemably evil. Take note that the process to become an archlich, like Artakhshathra, is not the same method used to become a regular lich.

estradling
2007-08-11, 11:05 AM
In Second Edition the potion required to achive lichdom was what the process so vile in nature. This link (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13101182&postcount=7) will give some information. And no Artakhshathra did not make or even use this potion. While the act its self might not be evil, the exact methods use to achive that goal could be. Now you see why the typical lich is irredeemably evil. Take note that the process to become an archlich, like Artakhshathra, is not the same method used to become a regular lich.


Ahh... until now you've always said he was a just a lich... That does make a difference. Back on the subject of just Liches. In your games it is perfectly acceptable to remove the irredeemably evil requirement for liches if you wish to. However if for some reason you wish to take Artakhshathra into another DM's world or try to reproduce the result else where the DM of that world would be well within his rights to say that it can't happen.

Thus your whole example was to try to make a good lich. And it depends on a house ruling that counters the RAW. Once you get into house rules you really can't have a good discussion because they vary so widely. Thus your example is too dependent to apply to other groups.