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clash
2017-06-15, 04:46 PM
So I read post on here all the time that reference how in d&d combat healing is ineffective(and I agree wholeheartedly) because the enemy can typically dish out damage faster than you can heal it. So killing an enemy one turn faster is more efficient than spending a turn healing. So my question is what if it wasnt? Would it break anything for healing to be as effective as combat?

Calen
2017-06-15, 05:00 PM
The biggest change to the game you would see would be longer fights.

If players are going to spend time healing and not fighting, monsters will stay alive longer.

The more monsters are alive the more damage they deal which means that more healing is required.

Unless you have very efficient players a typical round is going to take 15 minutes to half an hour. So by having an efficient healing option in the game you are likely adding an hour to every fight that is remotely dangerous to the players.

clash
2017-06-15, 05:11 PM
I understand that fights would be longer but I am having trouble seeing an extra 2-4 rounds.

In my experience most combat encounter last 3-6 rounds.

say the average group size is 5 characters. One of them is a healer and dedicates their actions each turn to healing. That means the fight will be 20% longer. That is an additional round of combat adding an extra 15 minutes to half hour which admittedly could still be an issue but it becomes at least less of one.

Do you think it wouldn't break anything though other than adding time to combats?

PhoenixPhyre
2017-06-15, 06:38 PM
Unless you have very efficient players a typical round is going to take 15 minutes to half an hour. So by having an efficient healing option in the game you are likely adding an hour to every fight that is remotely dangerous to the players.




say the average group size is 5 characters. One of them is a healer and dedicates their actions each turn to healing. That means the fight will be 20% longer. That is an additional round of combat adding an extra 15 minutes to half hour which admittedly could still be an issue but it becomes at least less of one.

Do you think it wouldn't break anything though other than adding time to combats?

How in the world do your rounds take 15+ minutes? Mine are like 4. 5 max if someone's not paying attention. Even my groups of 8 teenagers took less than 15 minutes per round.

Amnoriath
2017-06-15, 06:45 PM
Mainly I think the issue for 5e is that it is already a somewhat forgiving game giving each character another self worth or more of health per day in hit die while completely renewing after a long rest. The problem with asking about balance here is that you have no material for us to judge it with. In principle though having a dedicated here though is that one of your casters are healing and buffing martials while not obstructing enemies. So with this in mind it would be great in dealing with large relatively slow high CR creatures but large numbers and/or highly mobile creatures could overwhelm them more quickly.

zeek0
2017-06-16, 02:08 AM
I'd prefer for healing to be a bit less powerful than damage. This reflects the realities of the world (entropy), but is also good for combat enjoyment.

First - healing is boring. You aren't doing something active against your foe, you're simply propping up an ally. It requires less role-playing and fantasticism.

Second - healing makes the world less dangerous. Characters are much less likely to die, and I'd argue that danger is an important element of enjoyable combat. It encourages heroism.

Third - characters and monsters would be encouraged to use their resources for healing, never damage. If you can heal faster than your enemies can dish out damage, then you should dedicate yourself to healing - and let your allies do all the heroic things. Every group, if optimal, would include a dedicated healer. This is boring, and also irreflective of fictional groups of heroes that we know and love.

Lvl 2 Expert
2017-06-16, 02:12 AM
Assuming this effective healing would be available to both sides of a fight most encounters would drag out until at least one party is out of healing magic.

clash
2017-06-16, 09:37 AM
Thanks for all the excellent feedback. So here is an idea that I wanted to add to this:

when you are reduced to 0hp you can't be brought back up by normal healing (instead requires some type of spell it ritual with min casting time of 10 min). This brings a lot of danger and excitement back into the game and as once you are down you are out for the combat. And you can't instantly be brought back from within an inch of your life. This also should prevent combats from going on until all healing resources are expended for at least one side. It also adds urgency to the healing making it more exciting.

JBPuffin
2017-06-16, 12:31 PM
Thanks for all the excellent feedback. So here is an idea that I wanted to add to this:

when you are reduced to 0hp you can't be brought back up by normal healing (instead requires some type of spell it ritual with min casting time of 10 min). This brings a lot of danger and excitement back into the game and as once you are down you are out for the combat. And you can't instantly be brought back from within an inch of your life. This also should prevent combats from going on until all healing resources are expended for at least one side. It also adds urgency to the healing making it more exciting.

I think you have to have examples of how combat healing will be improved for us to compare this to. How would you go about making in-combat healing actually worth it? Just bumping up the dice on cure and healing word (2d6 and 1d8 per level + spellcasting mod, perhaps?) is a start, but what else would it take?

One of the things I miss about 4e is the lack of a "healing strike" - not even life clerics have something like that. I can totally see a 1st-level "smite" spell on the divine list which restores HP to an ally within a certain range equal to the amount of damage done to the target, and then adds damage when using a more-than-1st-level slot.

clash
2017-06-16, 01:37 PM
Alright so these are some ideas I have come up with for this version of healing

Level 1 spells:
Cure Wounds: 2d10 + ability mod + 1d10 per level
Healing Word: 2d6 + ability mod + 1d6 per level
Rouse(ritual): 1 min cast time - Restore an unconsious creature to 1hp(cleric, druid, bard, paladin, ranger)
Life Sap - Deals 2d8 necrotic dmg + 1d8 per level on failed save and heals the caster for the amount of dmg dealt(sorcerer, warlock, wizard) on a successful save deals half dmg and doesnt heal.

Healing Strike instead of Dvine Strike for life clerics: Once on each of your turns when you hit a creature with a weapon attack, an ally within 30ft of you can regain 1d8 hp. When you reach 14th level, the amount healed increases to 2d8.

Celestial Warlock - Share Life ability instead of Healing Light: Whenever you would be healed and amount, you can choose for an ally within 30ft to be healed for an equal amount

GalacticAxekick
2017-06-16, 01:39 PM
Some time ago I wrote house rules for the Medicine skill (http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/Bk_qMLV3e), aiming to give martial characters access to reliable support.

Calen's concern of longer fights isn't unfounded, but I don't think it's serious. A character with 0 hit points isn't attacking, buffing, or otherwise moving the encounter along. As long as you aren't healing round after round, spending an action to bring someone back or prevent them from being downed is both faster and easier than fighting without them.

Amnoriath's concern of making a forgiving system even moreso is mitigated, I think, by spending hit dice on the healing in the first place.

Amnoriath
2017-06-16, 06:42 PM
Amnoriath's concern of making a forgiving system even moreso is mitigated, I think, by spending hit dice on the healing in the first place.

What I said was that 5e is already quite forgiving which is actually one of the reasons I like and stick with it. What I was trying to say ultimately though is that it favors battling towards the strengths of the martials(tanking, crowding larger creatures..etc) but not that of the casters(crowds and hindering other casting). You could also say that if it is 2-3 encounter day that it could be boring. Ultimately though this depends on what he is thinking of and how a party chooses to compose itself, not so much about changing the game.

GalacticAxekick
2017-06-16, 06:59 PM
What I said was that 5e is already quite forgiving which is actually one of the reasons I like and stick with it. What I was trying to say ultimately though is that it favors battling towards the strengths of the martials(tanking, crowding larger creatures..etc) but not that of the casters(crowds and hindering other casting). You could also say that if it is 2-3 encounter day that it could be boring. Ultimately though this depends on what he is thinking of and how a party chooses to compose itself, not so much about changing the game.Just to double-check that I understood; you're saying that 5e is forgiving, thanks to full healing with long rests and considerable healing during short rests. You like this design choice, but you're concerned that combat healing would amplify it to the point of favouring tanks over skirmishers and artillery (since the tanks take plenty of damage and gain plenty from healing, while the skirmishers and artillery take little damage and gain little from healing).

If this is what you meant, I totally agree, and I think my comment stands! "Amnoriath's concern of making a forgiving system even moreso is mitigated, I think, by spending hit dice on the healing in the first place." That is, the combat healing in my homebrew spends (and halves!) hit dice, trading quantity of healing for immediacy. It's another way to heal, rather than increasing the amount of healing in the game.

Ziegander
2017-06-16, 07:04 PM
Long rest restores all hit dice, but no hit points. Falling to 0 hit points can't be undone by simply regaining 1 hit point. One must first be stabilized (requiring the use of a Medicine skill check, a 1st level ritual spell, or three successful Death saving throws).

THEN, yes, let's make healing spells much more efficient in combat, I agree.

Amnoriath
2017-06-16, 10:10 PM
Just to double-check that I understood; you're saying that 5e is forgiving, thanks to full healing with long rests and considerable healing during short rests. You like this design choice, but you're concerned that combat healing would amplify it to the point of favouring tanks over skirmishers and artillery (since the tanks take plenty of damage and gain plenty from healing, while the skirmishers and artillery take little damage and gain little from healing).

Not quite, I am saying certain encounters in which martials are good at become easier, but ones in which casters are good at become harder due to the use of at least one dedicated healer hence why I said this, "Ultimately though this depends on what he is thinking of and how a party chooses to compose itself, not so much about changing the game."

GalacticAxekick
2017-06-16, 10:15 PM
Not quite, I am saying certain encounters in which martials are good at become easier, but ones in which casters are good at become harder due to the use of at least one dedicated healer hence why I said this, "Ultimately though this depends on what he is thinking of and how a party chooses to compose itself, not so much about changing the game."Oh! Well as long as combat healing is tied closely to the medicine skill, the dedicated healer would still have their whole list of class features and all but one of their skills to make use of: essentially all of their normal combat tools.

A combat healer based on spell choices or class features would face the pitfalls you describe, but that's not what my homebrew is.

Amnoriath
2017-06-16, 10:16 PM
Long rest restores all hit dice, but no hit points. Falling to 0 hit points can't be undone by simply regaining 1 hit point. One must first be stabilized (requiring the use of a Medicine skill check, a 1st level ritual spell, or three successful Death saving throws).

THEN, yes, let's make healing spells much more efficient in combat, I agree.

1. No, long rest restores all hit points but only half of the hit die, "At the end of a long rest, a character regains all lost hit points. The character also regains spent Hit Dice, up to a number of dice equal to half of the character’s total number of them. For example, if a character has eight Hit Dice, he or she can regain four spent Hit Dice upon finishing a long rest." (PHB, 186)
2. Yes, but unless the DM is actively trying to overwhelm your party it isn't difficult to do.

Ziegander
2017-06-16, 11:32 PM
1. No, long rest restores all hit points but only half of the hit die, "At the end of a long rest, a character regains all lost hit points. The character also regains spent Hit Dice, up to a number of dice equal to half of the character’s total number of them. For example, if a character has eight Hit Dice, he or she can regain four spent Hit Dice upon finishing a long rest." (PHB, 186)
2. Yes, but unless the DM is actively trying to overwhelm your party it isn't difficult to do.

No, those are rules change suggestions I was making in addition to making combat healing spells more efficient.

clash
2017-06-17, 10:44 AM
No, those are rules change suggestions I was making in addition to making combat healing spells more efficient.

I like these suggestions. They make a lot of sense. Thanks for all the input

Liran Sterling
2017-06-18, 03:27 PM
This was a useful thread. I'm running a campaign in a couple months with 8 players, 4 of whom are healers in some way or another (two bards, a paladin, and a custom "Physician" class that I made. Also a druid who says she'll be a healer.)

I've been concerned that Nothing I throw at them will really provide them any sense of risk or threat. I guess I'll just have to hit hard.

Ziegander
2017-06-18, 04:42 PM
Yeah, so to clarify, I also tend to find that healing spells underperform for their spell levels (though Life Clerics are definitely somewhat strong, and Life Goodberry and other similar combos are very efficient), yet 5e as a whole is very bouncy when it comes to Death's Door. My suggestions to rectify both of these issues are as follows:

1) Long rest no longer restores any hit points. Instead it restores all expended Hit Dice.

2) Regaining hit points does not stabilize a creature at 0 hit points or restore their consciousness. In fact...

3) In order to be able to restore hit points to a creature at 0 hit points, at all, that creature must first be stabilized.

4) A creature at 0 hit points becomes stable after passing three Death Saves without having first failed three Death Saves; after another creatures spends an action to perform a Medicine check with a DC of 11 + 5 per Death Save the target has already failed; or...

5) Spare the Dying is no longer a cantrip, it is a 1st level ritual spell. It stabilizes any creatures you choose within 15ft of you that are at 0 hit points. Upcasting heals those creatures 1d6 per slot level above 1st.

6) Reminder: a creature in stable condition remains at 0 hit points and remains unconscious.

7) Cure Wounds restores hit points to a creature within 30ft of you that is not Dying equal to 2d8 + your spellcasting modifier. Healing spells continue to scale at rate that is competitive with single target damage spells throughout spell levels.

Cure Wounds could be given "free scaling" like a cantrip while still requiring at least a 1st level spell slot and still gaining additional scaling by upcasting, for example, to the tune of something like, "Even when cast from a 1st-level spell slot, Cure Wounds restores 1d8 additional hit points to the chosen creature at 5th level, 2d8 additional hit points at 11th level, 3d8 additional hit points at 17th level. These additional hit points are always added to any additional hit points the spell would restore when cast from a spell slot higher than 1st-level." This would allow it to keep up with cantrip damage and remain a relevant action even before being upcast.

With this additional tweak, at 11th level, for example, if you upcast Cure Wounds from a 3rd level spell slot you would restore 6d8 + your spellcasting modifier to a single creature within 30ft which compares fairly well to Fireball dealing 8d6 (no spellcasting modifier) damage to all creatures in a 30ft radius.

8) Another optional complication one might add would be to make failed Death Saves count as something akin to "injuries," not inflicting any penalties, but lasting until they can be somehow "removed." A Long rest might remove one failed Death Save while magic or skillful Medicine checks might remove them as well. This can certainly up the overall lethality of your game, though, which may not be something you'd prefer, even if you raised the number of required Death Saves to actually die to, say, five. Could be interesting to playtest, though.