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ATrueFan
2017-06-15, 07:28 PM
Original Post:

Jesus we have been on this air ship for almost 2 years of real time.

Ever since he did the kick starter this comic has gone down hill in terms of quality.

Please just focus on what really matters which is progressing the actual STORY that is currently happening.

Edit: This will also be in a post in this thread so it bumps to top

A lot of people have posted in this thread regarding specifics to my criticism of the OOTS webcomic.

Well I am here to give specifics.

1. Several people have pointed out that I may be breaking the rules of the forum by mentioning the time it takes for an update. I wish to clarify that in no way do I care about how often this comic updates. It will be finished when it is finished as all great works of art should be.
-On a separate issue the fact that it is even against the rules to do such a thing is ridiculous in and of itself. I can understand you would not like hearing over and over how long it is taking to finish the comic or post updates, but its a valid concern for people to have. Not advocating for or against either side here.

2. Am I a troll? No.

3. On complaining about free content: The webcomic is free, but if you want the entire story you need to buy the prequel books. Its freemium content, and if I have paid for something I have the right to express my opinion of the quality of the product or the product that is currently in the works, such as the NEXT book being put out.

4. The kick starter issue: The kick starter was done for REPRINTS of the original books, and I have no problem with that, I was able to buy the books after the kick starter. What I have an issue with is the fact that BEFORE the kick starter the webcomic was the main focus, now as some have said, Mr. Burlew has had to change his priorites towards fulfilling pledges. How long has it been since the kick starter came out? 2012? The time it takes to update is not the important part here, its weather or not the STORY QUALITY is impacted by the webcomic not being the main focus. My argument of course being how long its taken in IN COMIC TIME to accomplish anything in this new story arc. It is my opinion and nothing more and having examples of where I think the story should have gone a different path are irrelevant. What is relevant is that this comic has been impacted negatively from having to fulfill obligations to backers. Some may agree some may disagree, but I know a few people have posted in this thread agreeing with me.

5. Do I know Mr. Burlew is trying? Of course I know this. I am venting frustration towards the meta story than to the creator himself. I have nothing but respect for what Mr. Burlew is doing, and wish him luck on finishing his magnum opus.

6. I understand my original post was vague.

7.
@ATrueFan (if that's your real name)- What exactly is it that you dislike about the airship passage, and how do you feel it could be improved? Do you mean that the pacing is off? Do you mean that the update schedule is slow? Or do you mean that the airship should not have been included at all, and if so, why? Or is it something else entirely? Your post is a bit light on specifics.

-I don't think this entire segment needed to be done. Ask yourself what has happened since they left the Godsmoot. Anything important? I was under the impression that'd we would be finally be confronting Xykon and getting down to the most important battle in the strips history <This is an opinion. What I see happening feels more like FILLER. Were just supposed to now care about whats happening with Bandanna and the crew, whole strips have been dedicated to their own struggles with whats happening, and I have to ask who cares? These characters are not important to the main story in any way, or have yet to be shown to influence anything. I feel that this whole ogre plot is specifically set up so we can be introduced to the crew on a more personal level. It throws off any suspense of racing to get to Xykon when were still talking about who gets to lead the ship. Does it matter who is behind the wheel of the airship? Is that central to Roy stabbing Xykon? I dont know. Just seems unimportant compared to what we could be reading about. Again it is just an opinion.

And thats it so far. Will look for more posts and reply when I can.

-ATrueFan

Kish
2017-06-15, 07:54 PM
It is apparent from your first two sentences that you do not, in fact, like the actual story (caps not necessary) that is currently happening. That you want something else, which you're defining as the actual story, while the story being told is somehow a fake story.

Get used to disappointment.

pendell
2017-06-15, 08:01 PM
Jesus we have been on this air ship for almost 2 years of real time.

Ever since he did the kick starter this comic has gone down hill in terms of quality.

Please just focus on what really matters which is progressing the actual STORY that is currently happening.

Yes, he does care, and yes he's trying.

I don't have the thread links where he's discussed this , but here is the scoop as we know it:

1) Rich has some unspecified condition , which is why he's working in comics as opposed to full time in advertising, which is what he used to do. In some terms, he has fewer spoons (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoon_theory) than an average person.

2) Kickstarter did have an impact. Rich tells us that every morning when he wakes up he has to decide which of three beasts to tackle:

A) Kickstarter rewards (which he promised people specifically to deliver).
B) Merchandising, such as calendars, games and so forth. This is not something he promised, but it does pay his bills.
C) The comic itself. Which does not generate revenue, but does attract readers who may at some point buy stuff in category B.

C) is his lowest priority. He does attend to it -- he posted three comics almost back-to-back a few weeks ago -- but , again, other things called him away.

So yes, he is trying.

It's not surprising that you're disappointed. You're far from the only one and some have made their displeasure extremely vocal. He is well aware of how his update schedule stacks up against the rest of the industry. Being a perfectionist, it wouldn't surprise me if he was less happy about it than anyone here.

He's aware of the problem. Telling him about it again isn't going to make him produce it any faster.

So all I can suggest is to enjoy the forum, or take a break and come back in a few weeks for additional updates. Game of Thrones the books hasn't updated in years. OOTS is a bit faster than that!

Respectfully,

Brian P.

SilverCacaobean
2017-06-16, 08:17 AM
You, sir, are a true fan and a true scotsman! One could argue that not actually liking the story makes you not a fan at all, but what do they know, am I right? They are false fans. I am sure you know what makes you a true fan. It's probably the same thing that makes you a true scotsman. Thank you very much for voicing what all true fans are thinking. Which is, that they don't like the story! Here, have a true cookie.

martianmister
2017-06-16, 08:34 AM
You just created this account for trolling, right?

KorvinStarmast
2017-06-16, 09:25 AM
You just created this account for trolling, right?

The join date says 2016, but the only posts are recent and ... well, 'nuff said.

137beth
2017-06-16, 09:42 AM
Seems like Roy and Elan tried pretty hard in knocking the frost giant off of the airship. So, yea, I think The Order of the Stick are still trying to accomplish their goal of saving the world.

Alcore
2017-06-16, 10:21 AM
I'm getting sick of the airship myself and have lost empathy with most of the world he has made. The Giant made a good world; it lampshades the issues with alignment and 'always X' races so well. But that is why i haved lost empathy.


I root for redcloak and the dark one. I wish to see good being done not good being upheld as status quo marches on.... I also wish to the monster in the darkness and how the halfling dies. After that there is not much else to wait for.

Peelee
2017-06-16, 10:42 AM
I, too, am upset at how long we've been in Azure City the afterlife the desert the Godsmoot the airship.

Nightcanon
2017-06-16, 11:04 AM
It never ceases to amaze me how people can have so little self-awareness that they will blunder onto a website that they access for free and complain that the comic that they have been reading for free isn't produced as quickly as they want, or doesn't follow the direction that they want it to follow.

@pendell: thanks for the spoons analogy, which rescues this thread from being an irredeemable loss.

Regards, Nightcanon

Grey_Wolf_c
2017-06-16, 11:12 AM
It never ceases to amaze me how people can have so little self-awareness that they will blunder onto a website that they access for free and complain that the comic that they have been reading for free isn't produced as quickly as they want, or doesn't follow the direction that they want it to follow.

[insert here vague platitudes about youth these days that could have been lifted wholesale from 4000-year-old clay tablets from the Mesopotamian civilization]

Seriously, self-entitlement is a constant of human beings. I've been listening to the History of Rome podcast (https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/the-history-of-rome/id261654474?mt=2) lately, and if you think this is bad, you should hear what the Roman citizens (of the lower classes, which were about 90% of the city's population) thought about their free grain allotments (in today's episode, I learnt that said "grain" allotments included wine, and that to the average Roman citizen, the possibility of starving to death was about level with the possibility of going to bed sober).

GW

Cazero
2017-06-16, 11:39 AM
Seriously, self-entitlement is a constant of human beings. I've been listening to the History of Rome podcast (https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/the-history-of-rome/id261654474?mt=2) lately, and if you think this is bad, you should hear what the Roman citizens (of the lower classes, which were about 90% of the city's population) thought about their free grain allotments (in today's episode, I learnt that said "grain" allotments included wine, and that to the average Roman citizen, the possibility of starving to death was about level with the possibility of going to bed sober).
From what I know, Roman/Greek "citizenship" of antiquity would be called "nobility" in medieval times, "bourgeoisie" by Karl Marx and "filthy rich" today.

Grey_Wolf_c
2017-06-16, 11:51 AM
From what I know, Roman/Greek "citizenship" of antiquity would be called "nobility" in medieval times, "bourgeoisie" by Karl Marx and "filthy rich" today.

No, that was just the senatorial families. To be of senatorial rank, you had to pay 1 Million sestertii per year to the state. And if (IIRC) Pliny the Younger is to be believed, that was spare change to most senatorial families (he himself did not think himself "rich", despite a fortune of about 20 million), at a time when the "lower middle class" (that was ineligible for grain subsidies, and thus struggled to pay for their own food) was making about 20,000 sestertii a year.

The poorest citizens, whom I referenced above where an order of magnitude larger than the lowest-class, and had no income other than handouts from the senatorial class (who showed off their wealth by the number of people they had patronages with).

The top, truly rich, senatorial families might have been as low as 20 or 30 families in total. And their own fortunes were dwarfed, of course, by that of the Imperial family.

(I recommend listening to episode 86 for more accurate numbers, mind you. I'm doing this from memory and only after a single listening).

GW

Peelee
2017-06-16, 11:53 AM
From what I know, Roman/Greek "citizenship" of antiquity would be called "nobility" in medieval times, "bourgeoisie" by Karl Marx and "filthy rich" today.

That would be quite the feat, since no small part of why the Roman Empire was so successful was that their conquered peoples became full citizens.

denthor
2017-06-16, 12:01 PM
Attention a true fan (atic)

NEW COMIC UP?

spoiler alert it is all about the airship that was introduced to Elan when his brother took his place and framed him for multiple murder as not Nale.

Grey_Wolf_c
2017-06-16, 12:06 PM
That would be quite the feat, since no small part of why the Roman Empire was so successful was that their conquered peoples became full citizens.

...Eventually. It took several centuries and more than one uprising for each new group to attain full citizenship. Although by Trojan's time, that was indeed the case (and my numbers come from post-Trojan)

I should also note that I was talking about the population of Rome the city, not the empire-wide population (where most people were even porer, because they worked the land owned by the richest families - it is easy to see how the patronage system evolved into the feudal one).

GW

Murk
2017-06-16, 12:11 PM
That would be quite the feat, since no small part of why the Roman Empire was so successful was that their conquered peoples became full citizens.

Or slaves. Or entertainment objects in parades and battles. Or meat shields on the front lines. Or farm fertilizer. Or just some random schmucks who disappeared into a slum somewhere.

Neoriceisgood
2017-06-16, 01:02 PM
Has it been that long?


Either way, I've been enjoying the airship stuff a lot; It's not necessarily easy to keep updating a solo-man project like a weebcomic for as long as Rich has, whilst upholding quality. Nothing but respect from my side.

Leirus
2017-06-16, 02:02 PM
Yes, he does care, and yes he's trying.

I don't have the thread links where he's discussed this , but here is the scoop as we know it:

1) Rich has some unspecified condition , which is why he's working in comics as opposed to full time in advertising, which is what he used to do. In some terms, he has fewer spoons (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoon_theory) than an average person.

2) Kickstarter did have an impact. Rich tells us that every morning when he wakes up he has to decide which of three beasts to tackle:

A) Kickstarter rewards (which he promised people specifically to deliver).
B) Merchandising, such as calendars, games and so forth. This is not something he promised, but it does pay his bills.
C) The comic itself. Which does not generate revenue, but does attract readers who may at some point buy stuff in category B.

C) is his lowest priority. He does attend to it -- he posted three comics almost back-to-back a few weeks ago -- but , again, other things called him away.

So yes, he is trying.

It's not surprising that you're disappointed. You're far from the only one and some have made their displeasure extremely vocal. He is well aware of how his update schedule stacks up against the rest of the industry. Being a perfectionist, it wouldn't surprise me if he was less happy about it than anyone here.

He's aware of the problem. Telling him about it again isn't going to make him produce it any faster.

So all I can suggest is to enjoy the forum, or take a break and come back in a few weeks for additional updates. Game of Thrones the books hasn't updated in years. OOTS is a bit faster than that!

Respectfully,

Brian P.

You are an awesome, calm, patient person. My gut reaction would have get into trouble.

goodpeople25
2017-06-16, 02:17 PM
Anyone else experiencing déjà vu? I vaugely remember something quite similar to this.

Couldn't find anything through searching and the OP's profile showed only recent stuff but on a different note would a thread/post being deleted or something account for a discrepancy in number of posts on an accounts profile?

Grey_Wolf_c
2017-06-16, 02:25 PM
Anyone else experiencing déjà vu? I vaugely remember something quite similar to this.

Couldn't find anything through searching and the OP's profile showed only recent stuff but on a different note would a thread/post being deleted or something account for a discrepancy in number of posts on an accounts profile?

After a while, all complainers sound the same. I'm sure you've seen similar posts by other people unsatisfied by the direction of the story or, more commonly, by the speed of updates.

Could this individual have posted something like this and then deleted it? Sure. He also could be a sock puppet. But the most parsimonious explanation is that he is yet another dissatisfied reader who decided to tell the forum what he felt and then left. He ain't the first, nor will he be the last, I suspect.

GW

Xyril
2017-06-16, 02:30 PM
You, sir, are a true fan and a true scotsman! One could argue that not actually liking the story makes you not a fan at all, but what do they know, am I right? They are false fans. I am sure you know what makes you a true fan. It's probably the same thing that makes you a true scotsman. Thank you very much for voicing what all true fans are thinking. Which is, that they don't like the story! Here, have a true cookie.

I completely agree with this sentiment.

While I too am bothered by (but completely understand) the fact that updates have been sporadic, most likely due to the combination of Burlew's health and the substantial other commitments he chose to put on, I am far more bothered by the tone of OPs post. On there own, I might overlook the implication that other fans aren't true fans or that the story OP does't like isn't the true story, but put it all together and it smacks of a certain whining, entitled, narcissistic arrogance that really rubs me the wrong way and will either do nothing, or worse, be counterproductive in encouraging the author to fix the perceived flaws.

It's helpful to criticize specific shortcomings of a work; it is helpful to share your subjective opinion of what parts of a story you like and what parts you don't like. It's not helpful to harp on something the author is doing wrong (fewer updates) when he knows it's a bad thing, has acknowledged is a bad thing, but also can't change in the near future due to a combination of circumstances outside his control and the consequences of prior decisions that cannot be unmade.

goodpeople25
2017-06-16, 02:44 PM
After a while, all complainers sound the same. I'm sure you've seen similar posts by other people unsatisfied by the direction of the story or, more commonly, by the speed of updates.

Could this individual have posted something like this and then deleted it? Sure. He also could be a sock puppet. But the most parsimonious explanation is that he is yet another dissatisfied reader who decided to tell the forum what he felt and then left. He ain't the first, nor will he be the last, I suspect.

GW
The name itself is what got me thinking though, at this point I definitely have a filter for this type of post content. So I thought it was worth it to ask around, and there does appear to he a discrepancy so I wanted to see if anyone knew how that worked regardless.

DataNinja
2017-06-16, 03:03 PM
Anyone else experiencing déjà vu? I vaugely remember something quite similar to this.

I believe so, as I recall the same irony of the name occurring before. Of course, there's always the possibility that we're experiencing the same... déjà vu...

Say, no one happens to have a phone handy, would they? Uh, asking for a friend.

Grey_Wolf_c
2017-06-16, 03:08 PM
The name itself is what got me thinking though

I checked my ignore list, in case something popped up, but unfortunately, I don't usually ignore this kind of drive-by poster, since they are unlikely to stick around to futilely attempt to defend their indefensible tone, complaint, position, etc.

But yes, I'll grant you it does seem to ring a bell.

GW

Lacuna Caster
2017-06-16, 03:26 PM
You, sir, are a true fan and a true scotsman! One could argue that not actually liking the story makes you not a fan at all...
Okay, whoa. It's possible the OP is unhappy with the pace of events, not necessarily with the actual structure of the plot. And there is no inherent requirement that you be a fan in order to complain about a work (even if it makes the moniker a bit odd.)


With that said:

@ATrueFan (if that's your real name)- What exactly is it that you dislike about the airship passage, and how do you feel it could be improved? Do you mean that the pacing is off? Do you mean that the update schedule is slow? Or do you mean that the airship should not have been included at all, and if so, why? Or is it something else entirely? Your post is a bit light on specifics.

EDIT: I'd also point out, if you are complaining about the update schedule, then that's a schedule complaint and the thread will be locked.

Grey_Wolf_c
2017-06-16, 03:29 PM
Okay, whoa. It's possible the OP is unhappy with the pace of events, not necessarily with the actual structure of the plot.


Ever since he did the kick starter this comic has gone down hill in terms of quality.

Please just focus on what really matters which is progressing the actual STORY that is currently happening.
(emphasis mine)

Those are clear comments not on the pace but on the plot.

GW

pendell
2017-06-16, 03:46 PM
...Eventually. It took several centuries and more than one uprising for each new group to attain full citizenship. Although by Trojan's time, that was indeed the case (and my numbers come from post-Trojan)

I should also note that I was talking about the population of Rome the city, not the empire-wide population (where most people were even porer, because they worked the land owned by the richest families - it is easy to see how the patronage system evolved into the feudal one).

GW

I'm given to understand the meaning of 'citizen' became diluted over the years. In the time of Augustine, it was mostly restricted to Rome and allied Italian cities -- wasn't that what the Socii war was about? To extend citizenship to the other members of the Latin league? Acquiring citizenship by any other means was very rare and very expensive. But that's from memory.

Anyway, fast forward several hundred years. By the time the Empire falls in 476 citizenship in the empire is universal but also near-meaningless.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Lacuna Caster
2017-06-16, 04:09 PM
Those are clear comments not on the pace but on the plot.
*shrugs* It's possible s/he considers bad pacing to be a form of poor quality. We don't know, and I don't think a massive threadpile on the subject is productive until we do.

Peelee
2017-06-16, 04:23 PM
*shrugs* It's possible s/he considers bad pacing to be a form of poor quality.

...and? If they do, then it's against forum rules, and the entire premise of the thread is unproductive. If they don't, then others are allowed to voice their own opinions as well. Either way, nothing is lost by people objecting to someone expressing a point of view in a forum that is intended to foster discussion.

Emanick
2017-06-16, 04:51 PM
I'm given to understand the meaning of 'citizen' became diluted over the years. In the time of Augustine, it was mostly restricted to Rome and allied Italian cities -- wasn't that what the Socii war was about? To extend citizenship to the other members of the Latin league? Acquiring citizenship by any other means was very rare and very expensive. But that's from memory.

Anyway, fast forward several hundred years. By the time the Empire falls in 476 citizenship in the empire is universal but also near-meaningless.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Augustine... of Hippo? He lived during the dying days of the Empire (though died a few decades before its total fall), so I'm guessing you're thinking of someone else. Augustus?

Lacuna Caster
2017-06-16, 05:25 PM
...and? If they do, then it's against forum rules, and the entire premise of the thread is unproductive. If they don't, then others are allowed to voice their own opinions as well. Either way, nothing is lost by people objecting to someone expressing a point of view in a forum that is intended to foster discussion.
Complaining about pacing isn't quite the same thing as complaining about the update schedule, and we don't really know what the OP is specifically complaining about. Absent such info, most of the discussion is focused on the poster, not the arguments of the poster, which is ad-hominem in spirit if not by technicality. (That, and completely tangential comparisons with roman citizenship.)

I don't know if much is lost this way, but I doubt that much is gained.

Peelee
2017-06-16, 05:39 PM
Complaining about pacing isn't quite the same thing as complaining about the update schedule, and we don't really know what the OP is specifically complaining about.

My mistake. But complaining about the pacing is still subject to possible dissent by those who disagree. If the complaint is unclear, the onus is on the OP to clarify it (assuming they want actual discussion on the subject, which seems unlikely as OP has written only simple hit-and-run posts).

Ruck
2017-06-16, 05:46 PM
Complaining about the pacing in terms of strips-- i.e. "I thought this story should have been finished in 10 strips, and instead it took 25" would have been an allowable criticism.

However, OP made specific reference to the real-time schedule, which is not allowed.

SilverCacaobean
2017-06-16, 05:53 PM
Okay, whoa. It's possible the OP is unhappy with the pace of events, not necessarily with the actual structure of the plot. And there is no inherent requirement that you be a fan in order to complain about a work (even if it makes the moniker a bit odd.)

*sigh* do we really have to dissect this inanity?
The very first sentence is clearly against the rules, since it is a complaint about spending too much real time on a plot the OP finds disagreeable.

The second is an insult, that doesn't bother to explain how exactly the quality has dropped. It mentions the kickstarter, which may or may not be an implication about stuff that I'd rather not mention but this kind of ambiguity goes hand to hand with this kind of sterile posting.

The third is a downright no true scotsman fallacy, that asserts that what we're reading is not the true story.

None of this implies the the OP has a problem with the pace of events so what you said is irrelevant.


And speaking of what is lost and gained, I found the digression about the Roman Empire very interesting.
Why don't we go back to that, before the mods come here and do to us whatever it is they do to dissidents, around here?

Lacuna Caster
2017-06-16, 05:58 PM
However, OP made specific reference to the real-time schedule, which is not allowed.
Fair, but in that case, what are we talking about? The only other point the OP made was being dissatisfied with the 'quality of the story', which is too vague to rebut.

I'm not seeing anything to substantively talk about here, is my point, other than 'nope' or 'huh?'. And if it takes multiple pages to say so, one might start to think the forum doth protest too much.

Peelee
2017-06-16, 06:19 PM
I'm not seeing anything to substantively talk about here, is my point, other than 'nope' or 'huh?'.

And yet you joined in the discussion.

If you really think there is nothing to talk about, you could always just ignore it instead of trying to lecture everyone who does feel there is something to talk about.

ChillerInstinct
2017-06-16, 06:48 PM
Jesus we have been on this air ship for almost 2 years of real time.


There's a quote from the Giant somewhere about how, long after OOTS is done, his work will be judged from the lens of being a complete piece of fiction, not as a webcomic which updates. I'm paraphrasing, of course, but the point is that what really matters is how it'll read when it's all over. What works as a brisk pace for those of us who check the site a few times a week or more is WILDLY different from what would work from the perspective of someone who, say, decides to binge read the whole comic from start to finish in 2025.

To put it another way, if the comic went at the pace a lot of the naysayers want, it would be VERY choppy and rushed when viewed as a full story. For all the talk about how the story is "dragging" with the mutiny plot, it's only been 30 or so pages. When it's all printed, that's honestly not all that much.

ATrueFan
2017-06-16, 08:11 PM
A lot of people have posted in this thread regarding specifics to my criticism of the OOTS webcomic.

Well I am here to give specifics.

1. Several people have pointed out that I may be breaking the rules of the forum by mentioning the time it takes for an update. I wish to clarify that in no way do I care about how often this comic updates. It will be finished when it is finished as all great works of art should be.
-On a separate issue the fact that it is even against the rules to do such a thing is ridiculous in and of itself. I can understand you would not like hearing over and over how long it is taking to finish the comic or post updates, but its a valid concern for people to have. Not advocating for or against either side here.

2. Am I a troll? No.

3. On complaining about free content: The webcomic is free, but if you want the entire story you need to buy the prequel books. Its freemium content, and if I have paid for something I have the right to express my opinion of the quality of the product or the product that is currently in the works, such as the NEXT book being put out.

4. The kick starter issue: The kick starter was done for REPRINTS of the original books, and I have no problem with that, I was able to buy the books after the kick starter. What I have an issue with is the fact that BEFORE the kick starter the webcomic was the main focus, now as some have said, Mr. Burlew has had to change his priorites towards fulfilling pledges. How long has it been since the kick starter came out? 2012? The time it takes to update is not the important part here, its weather or not the STORY QUALITY is impacted by the webcomic not being the main focus. My argument of course being how long its taken in IN COMIC TIME to accomplish anything in this new story arc. It is my opinion and nothing more and having examples of where I think the story should have gone a different path are irrelevant. What is relevant is that this comic has been impacted negatively from having to fulfill obligations to backers. Some may agree some may disagree, but I know a few people have posted in this thread agreeing with me.

5. Do I know Mr. Burlew is trying? Of course I know this. I am venting frustration towards the meta story than to the creator himself. I have nothing but respect for what Mr. Burlew is doing, and wish him luck on finishing his magnum opus.

6. I understand my original post was vague.

7.

@ATrueFan (if that's your real name)- What exactly is it that you dislike about the airship passage, and how do you feel it could be improved? Do you mean that the pacing is off? Do you mean that the update schedule is slow? Or do you mean that the airship should not have been included at all, and if so, why? Or is it something else entirely? Your post is a bit light on specifics.
-I don't think this entire segment needed to be done. Ask yourself what has happened since they left the Godsmoot. Anything important? I was under the impression that'd we would be finally be confronting Xykon and getting down to the most important battle in the strips history <This is an opinion. What I see happening feels more like FILLER. Were just supposed to now care about whats happening with Bandanna and the crew, whole strips have been dedicated to their own struggles with whats happening, and I have to ask who cares? These characters are not important to the main story in any way, or have yet to be shown to influence anything. I feel that this whole ogre plot is specifically set up so we can be introduced to the crew on a more personal level. It throws off any suspense of racing to get to Xykon when were still talking about who gets to lead the ship. Does it matter who is behind the wheel of the airship? Is that central to Roy stabbing Xykon? I dont know. Just seems unimportant compared to what we could be reading about. Again it is just an opinion.

8. I just want this comic to succeed in the best way possible.

And thats it so far. Will look for more posts and reply when I can.


-ATrueFan

ORione
2017-06-16, 08:26 PM
I was under the impression that'd we would be finally be confronting Xykon and getting down to the most important battle in the strips history

That's an odd impression, considering the Order's not currently trying to stop Xykon. They're putting that to the side to focus on preventing a vampire from commiting election fraud.

Also, how can you know what's filler when you don't even know the whole plot? I bet back when Miko was dragging the Order to Azure City, there were fans complaining that the Miko plot was filler. But if that hadn't happened, the Order wouldn't even know about the Snarl.

SaintRidley
2017-06-16, 08:31 PM
-I don't think this entire segment needed to be done. Ask yourself what has happened since they left the Godsmoot. Anything important? I was under the impression that'd we would be finally be confronting Xykon and getting down to the most important battle in the strips history <This is an opinion. What I see happening feels more like FILLER. Were just supposed to now care about whats happening with Bandanna and the crew, whole strips have been dedicated to their own struggles with whats happening, and I have to ask who cares? These characters are not important to the main story in any way, or have yet to be shown to influence anything. I feel that this whole ogre plot is specifically set up so we can be introduced to the crew on a more personal level. It throws off any suspense of racing to get to Xykon when were still talking about who gets to lead the ship. Does it matter who is behind the wheel of the airship? Is that central to Roy stabbing Xykon? I dont know. Just seems unimportant compared to what we could be reading about. Again it is just an opinion.

And thats it so far. Will look for more posts and reply when I can.

-ATrueFan


Consider that you literally cannot know that nothing right now will have an effect on the conclusion of the story, as we're still in the story before that can happen, and your complaint disappears in a puff of logic.

All I see is someone who is bad at reading stories complaining about the serialized nature of the story.

pendell
2017-06-16, 08:47 PM
Augustine... of Hippo? He lived during the dying days of the Empire (though died a few decades before its total fall), so I'm guessing you're thinking of someone else. Augustus?

*Smacks forehead*. Yes, Augustus. First among equals etc. etc.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

yldenfrei
2017-06-16, 09:02 PM
something something
For a considerable wall of text, you still managed to leave out the contentious bits. Namely:
- exactly what/how STORY QUALITY is being impacted (negatively, by your tone) by recent events?
- What IN-COMIC TIME are you referring to?
- which part are you referring to as FILLER?

Because if the FILLER you're referring to is this the mutiny subplot, then you're complaining about some 27+ pages (out of 129 pages thus far for the current book)(also being generous here, as at least 1/3 of that features the Order). Or by your IN-COMIC TIME, less than a day.

You're ostensibly defending that you don't care for the pacing/how the comic updates (despite what you said in your first post), and yet none of your points direct to anything substantiated, aside from the general "They're not going after Xykon so they're doing it wrong!". I'm afraid we can't help you on that front.

You know what else felt like filler at the time it was happening? The starmetal sidequest. And that took 60+ pages, not even counting the time that elapsed until Roy finally managed to reforge his sword. Then look what we have now: a shiny weapon of legacy that would prove to be integral in vanquishing the big bad.

So to reiterate: what exactly are you complaining about? :smallconfused:


All I see is someone who is bad at reading stories complaining about the serialized nature of the story.
Seconded.

Kish
2017-06-16, 09:14 PM
The book currently going up on the website is the sixth of seven. Its villain is Greg, the vampire spirit possessing Durkon. The Order is not going to have their final clash with Xykon in it. If you ever thought they were heading toward that when they left the Godsmoot, given that Roy explicitly said they were going after the vampire and accepting the risk that Xykon would gain control of the last Gate while they were stopping the vampire from destroying the world, I can only conclude that that belief was based on wishful thinking, possibly aided by skimming what you had already decided were meaningless filler strips rather than paying attention to what was going on.

An Enemy Spy
2017-06-16, 09:45 PM
People who complain about filler generally don't even understand what that word means. When the Fellowship stopped in Lorien, was that filler just because they weren't actively engaged in destroying the Ring at that moment? The Order is currently involved in an action set-piece on the way north to where there are not one, but two world endangering plots going on. How on earth is that filler? Would you prefer the whole journey take place offscreen and the story just skip to them arriving at Kraagor's Gate at the same time as Xykon? Because that would certainly speed up the pace of the story, but I doubt many people would be very happy about it.

SaintRidley
2017-06-16, 09:48 PM
The book currently going up on the website is the sixth of seven. Its villain is Greg, the vampire spirit possessing Durkon. The Order is not going to have their final clash with Xykon in it. If you ever thought they were heading toward that when they left the Godsmoot, given that Roy explicitly said they were going after the vampire and accepting the risk that Xykon would gain control of the last Gate while they were stopping the vampire from destroying the world, I can only conclude that that belief was based on wishful thinking, possibly aided by skimming what you had already decided were meaningless filler strips rather than paying attention to what was going on.


People who complain about filler generally don't even understand what that word means. When the Fellowship stopped in Lorien, was that filler just because they weren't actively engaged in destroying the Ring at that moment? The Order is currently involved in an action set-piece on the way north to where there are not one, but two world endangering plots going on. How on earth is that filler? Would you prefer the whole journey take place offscreen and the story just skip to them arriving at Kraagor's Gate at the same time as Xykon? Because that would certainly speed up the pace of the story, but I doubt many people would be very happy about it.

Hence my call of "bad at reading stories."

Douglas
2017-06-16, 09:48 PM
These characters are not important to the main story in any way, or have yet to be shown to influence anything.
And what makes you so certain that this will remain true? The plot is to a large extent planned quite far in advance. All of this could be essential setup for things that will become important later. And in the mean time, this story is more about characters than about saving the world. And Bandana and Andi are characters in the story that have presently important roles.

Or, to quote The Giant:

If one does not care about the protagonists or antagonists and is not emotionally invested in their struggles—whether those struggles are external or internal, relevant to the MacGuffin plot or not—and all one cares about is the resolution of the MacGuffin chase, then you will almost certainly be bored with a lot of the material I'm producing. And more importantly, I won't care. The Snarl plot is part of the armature upon which I hang the characters' conflicts; it is not the whole of the story. The strip is titled The Order of the Stick, not The Chase for the Snarl or even Saving the World. Ultimately, it seems like you want the story to be about things it is not going to be about, so it's unlikely you are ever going to enjoy it.

Also, as a general rule of thumb, no one should say the sentence, "There's no (or no other) possible narrative purpose for Rich to have done X!" until the story is completed. Because there's always a narrative purpose, you just haven't thought of what it is.

Sometimes, the narrative purpose is to set up something that won't happen for 200 strips. Sometimes, it's to enable a joke, or to make the narrative easier to understand for non-players. Sometimes, it's just to stop people from wondering why they didn't use a different spell. And sometimes, it's just a deliberate red herring because this is a serialized story that won't reach its ending for another few years and I don't want everyone to predict what's going to happen along the way. All of those (and more) are legitimate reasons to have a character say or do something, even if not all of them apply to your personal reading experience.

Grey_Wolf_c
2017-06-16, 09:51 PM
People who complain about filler generally don't even understand what that word means. When the Fellowship stopped in Lorien, was that filler just because they weren't actively engaged in destroying the Ring at that moment? The Order is currently involved in an action set-piece on the way north to where there are not one, but two world endangering plots going on. How on earth is that filler? Would you prefer the whole journey take place offscreen and the story just skip to them arriving at Kraagor's Gate at the same time as Xykon? Because that would certainly speed up the pace of the story, but I doubt many people would be very happy about it.

It also ignores the nature of the story Rich wants to tell, which is a character-based story. Xykon, the rifts, the Snarl, that's just the excuse for getting the OotS moving so they can face challenges and be developed. Eddings put it best: fantasy stories tend to be travel stories, because if the character stay put, they become farmers.

As long as the characters are being developed, it's not filler. And since characters are being developed in this arch (like in all the previous ones), this arch is not filler.

Grey Wolf

The Extinguisher
2017-06-16, 10:50 PM
I agree. What's the deal with this whole Snarl thing anyway? Roy already beat Xykon, clearly this is all just an excuse for the author to drag on the story.

#OotsShouldHaveEndedInBookOne

Porthos
2017-06-16, 11:06 PM
It also ignores the nature of the story Rich wants to tell, which is a character-based story. Xykon, the rifts, the Snarl, that's just the excuse for getting the OotS moving so they can face challenges and be developed.

Pretty much this.

Another way to put it is there is no single overarching "Main Plot". It should have become apparent that there is no single "Main Plot" when the Order spent just under 200 strips just to get back together after getting separated in Azure City and then another 100 or so strips before they got on the road after being captured soon after they stepped foot on the Western Continent.

The "Main Plot", such as it is, hasn't existed since Azure City got a new landlord. And it could easily be argued that the so-called "Main Plot" didn't even really exist there, either, as more time was spent than not on other things.

Instead, whatever is happening in and around the Order (and by extension things that might affect the Order) is pretty much the plot of the comic. That means it can seem to meander at times and/or focus on things outside of the Xykon/Redcloak/Snarl plotline. But that's because the focus on the story is pretty much the Order of the Stick and the folks they interact with. With some side-looks at people who have been introduced (O-Chul, Redcloak, and so on) and what they may or may not be up to.

That's not to say that one has to find the current story interesting. One can find it dull as dish water. But make no mistake, it's part and parcel of the story Rich wants to tell.

Fey
2017-06-17, 12:05 AM
Original Post:

Jesus we have been on this air ship for almost 2 years of real time.

Ever since he did the kick starter this comic has gone down hill in terms of quality.

Please just focus on what really matters which is progressing the actual STORY that is currently happening.

Edit: This will also be in a post in this thread so it bumps to top

A lot of people have posted in this thread regarding specifics to my criticism of the OOTS webcomic.

Well I am here to give specifics.

1. Several people have pointed out that I may be breaking the rules of the forum by mentioning the time it takes for an update. I wish to clarify that in no way do I care about how often this comic updates. It will be finished when it is finished as all great works of art should be.
-On a separate issue the fact that it is even against the rules to do such a thing is ridiculous in and of itself. I can understand you would not like hearing over and over how long it is taking to finish the comic or post updates, but its a valid concern for people to have. Not advocating for or against either side here.

2. Am I a troll? No.

3. On complaining about free content: The webcomic is free, but if you want the entire story you need to buy the prequel books. Its freemium content, and if I have paid for something I have the right to express my opinion of the quality of the product or the product that is currently in the works, such as the NEXT book being put out.

4. The kick starter issue: The kick starter was done for REPRINTS of the original books, and I have no problem with that, I was able to buy the books after the kick starter. What I have an issue with is the fact that BEFORE the kick starter the webcomic was the main focus, now as some have said, Mr. Burlew has had to change his priorites towards fulfilling pledges. How long has it been since the kick starter came out? 2012? The time it takes to update is not the important part here, its weather or not the STORY QUALITY is impacted by the webcomic not being the main focus. My argument of course being how long its taken in IN COMIC TIME to accomplish anything in this new story arc. It is my opinion and nothing more and having examples of where I think the story should have gone a different path are irrelevant. What is relevant is that this comic has been impacted negatively from having to fulfill obligations to backers. Some may agree some may disagree, but I know a few people have posted in this thread agreeing with me.

5. Do I know Mr. Burlew is trying? Of course I know this. I am venting frustration towards the meta story than to the creator himself. I have nothing but respect for what Mr. Burlew is doing, and wish him luck on finishing his magnum opus.

6. I understand my original post was vague.

And thats it so far. Will look for more posts and reply when I can.

-ATrueFan

If you don't like the comic so much, go away. Stop reading. The rest of us will be perfectly happy here without you. Have a nice life elsewhere on the internet where everything caters perfectly to your every desire and your free entertainment that no one has to pay for is perfectly suited to your needs.



-I don't think this entire segment needed to be done. Ask yourself what has happened since they left the Godsmoot. Anything important? I was under the impression that'd we would be finally be confronting Xykon and getting down to the most important battle in the strips history <This is an opinion. What I see happening feels more like FILLER. Were just supposed to now care about whats happening with Bandanna and the crew, whole strips have been dedicated to their own struggles with whats happening, and I have to ask who cares? These characters are not important to the main story in any way, or have yet to be shown to influence anything. I feel that this whole ogre plot is specifically set up so we can be introduced to the crew on a more personal level. It throws off any suspense of racing to get to Xykon when were still talking about who gets to lead the ship. Does it matter who is behind the wheel of the airship? Is that central to Roy stabbing Xykon? I dont know. Just seems unimportant compared to what we could be reading about. Again it is just an opinion.

I don't think the entire segment in Rohan needed to be done in Lord of the Rings. Ask yourself what has happened since the Fellowship left Rivendell. Anything important? I was under the impression that we would be finally confronting Sauron and getting down to the most important battle in Middle Earth's history. What I see happening feels more like FILLER. We're just supposed to now care about what's happening with Eowyn and the Rohirim, whole scenes have been dedicated to their own struggles with what's happening, and I have to ask who cares? These characters are not important to the main story in any way, or have yet to be shown to influence anything. I feel like this whole Helm's Deep plot is specifically set up so we can be introduced to the Rohirim on a more personal level. It throws off any suspense of racing to get to Mordor when we're still talking about who will come to Rohan's aid. Does it matter who leads the last ride of the Rohirim? Is that central to Frodo throwing the One Ring into Mount Doom? I don't know. Just seems unimportant compared to what we could be seeing.

Or wait maybe stories DON'T HAVE TO RUSH RIGHT TO THE CLIMAX TO BE INTERESTING. I mean, gee, it's not like characters introduced halfway through a story arc can turn out to be important and have a major role to play in the final conflict. Nah, that's just crazy talk.

Xyril
2017-06-17, 03:03 AM
Ask yourself what has happened since they left the Godsmoot. Anything important? I was under the impression that'd we would be finally be confronting Xykon and getting down to the most important battle in the strips history <This is an opinion.


Respectfully, this may be your impression, but it was not an impression arrived at through logic. Roy's quest was to destroy Xykon for his family, but it has since evolved into a quest to save the world. Killing Xykon is still important, but primarily because Xykon was part of the threat from which the world needed to be saved. After the Godsmoot, it became clear that Hel and the whole Durkula plot had become a more immediate threat to the world. Thus, it seems obvious that the party would want to resolve the more immediate world-destroying threat before getting back to their Xykon hunt.



What I see happening feels more like FILLER. Were just supposed to now care about whats happening with Bandanna and the crew, whole strips have been dedicated to their own struggles with whats happening, and I have to ask who cares?


Punctuation please. I try not to be too nitpicky about typos and formatting, but I do feel the issue should be raised when it causes me to take extra time and effort to figure out what you mean. Writing "teh something" is easy to deal with because it's highly unlikely you meant something other than "the something." When the mistakes aren't obvious misspellings and you have to keep reading before you get enough context to realize that a few words back, the writer actually meant to write something else, and you have to do this multiple times, it becomes much more work to try to understand someone.


These characters are not important to the main story in any way, or have yet to be shown to influence anything.

Actually, the whole point of this arc is to show they are in fact important to the main plot. At first, the airship was just the background/sidekick for a character who was primarily there for the sake of Elan and his arc. Then they (the airship and its crew) became a convenience for the crew--a handy way to enable the heroes to continue their journey, the random ferry or airship in a game that exist primarily because the heroes need transport. However, one of the recurring themes of this comic is that, despite living in a world based on game worlds, it is not a game. The fact that the fate of the world and the outcome of the story hinges on the personal lives and conflicts not only of the heroes, but on NPCs who are otherwise irrelevant to the lives of the heroes, is a great subversion. It subverts the typical gaming conceit where some objects and characters exist solely to facilitate game play. It subverts Tarquin's assumption that stories must necessarily center around a protagonist or a group of protagonists, to the extent everyone else is irrelevant. I cared enough to keep reading because the squabble of random minor characters were affecting the big important quest; and then after reading I cared because the minor characters and their squabble turned out to be interesting.



I feel that this whole ogre plot is specifically set up so we can be introduced to the crew on a more personal level.


You mean giant, right?



It throws off any suspense of racing to get to Xykon when were still talking about who gets to lead the ship.

I guess our brains work differently. To me, this subplot enhances the suspense because the whole time, I can't help but keep in the back of my mind the fact that this conflict may delay the Order to the point where it's too late, or if Andi had won, presented a complete obstacle to the Order. I suppose the suspense would be gone if you had gotten so invested in the Andi fight that you completely forgot about why they were on the ship in the first place, but that's not me.



Does it matter who is behind the wheel of the airship?


Yes, because if Andi had ended up behind the wheel, then the ship would no longer be heading where the Order needed to go.



Is that central to Roy stabbing Xykon?


Yes, because stabbing Xykon requires proximity to Xykon.



I dont know. Just seems unimportant compared to what we could be reading about.


The world isn't just about the heroes. Sometimes, important things also depend on the seemingly unimportant lives of seemingly unimportant people. To me, that's been one of the important themes of this arc, but that's just my opinion. To you, the important lesson has been that seemingly unimportant people are in fact unimportant and need to stop distracting us.

Xyril
2017-06-17, 03:05 AM
Or wait maybe stories DON'T HAVE TO RUSH RIGHT TO THE CLIMAX TO BE INTERESTING.

Much like sex, stories are a race, and ATrueFan intends to be the winner.

Priceguy
2017-06-17, 03:34 AM
Another relevant Giant quote: (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19125267&postcount=151)


There are also deep tissue structural reasons for every single strip that appears, but most readers will never be aware of them, even after the fact. Put together, it is very difficult to take any reader-generated criticism seriously unless the critic is capable of putting together a detailed argument that actually manages to change my mind on the topic by addressing the concrete reasons I made those decisions in the first place—reasons which they can't even know about without spoiling the story for themselves. Dropping in to say, "This scene is pointless," neither addresses any possible reasons I may have had for including it nor outweighs the opinion of those readers who are enjoying it, so I dismiss it without further consideration.

An example: People complained about the New Year's Eve arc incessantly while it was happening, but it was utterly crucial for setting up the payoff of Elan kissing Haley for the first time, as well as Celia giving Roy the amulet so that she could show up again when Roy died. It also led directly to the V vs. Belkar prank war, which allowed me to inject some humor-driven strips into the next few scenes. So anyone complaining that the New Year's Eve scene wasn't funny enough and I should get back to the jokes (a more common complaint in that day than now) was in fact arguing against the tool by which I intended to give myself a new set-up for jokes.

There have always been sequences that seemed to have nothing to do with anything but turned out to matter. So will this one. By ATrueFan's logic, the entire Don't Split the Party book was filler. As Belkar says in the foreword: "There's this whole thing with Gates and a god-eating monster, but I'll be honest - it pretty much doesn't come up in this book". The part of the story that doesn't have to do with Xykon is still story.

Koo Rehtorb
2017-06-17, 03:52 AM
My personal problem with this arc is that I do not care even one single bit about any of the airship crew and they are getting a disproportionate (in my view) amount of time dedicated to them.

Of all of them only Bandana and Andi are of any note at all. Bandana is an okay character. I was fine with her when she turned up. But after what feels like literally dozens of strips dedicated to going "Hey guys look at how cool and competent Bandana is. Isn't she awesome?" she's worn very thin. And it's not helped any by the fact that the only other character with any major development feels like a two-dimensional caricature designed, again, to show off how awesome Bandana is. This plotline could have been more interesting if Andi and Bandana both had valid points and character flaws and learned to work better together and pull through in the end. But nope Andi's just a foil and a punchline.

Lacuna Caster
2017-06-17, 04:55 AM
What I see happening feels more like FILLER. Were just supposed to now care about whats happening with Bandanna and the crew, whole strips have been dedicated to their own struggles with whats happening, and I have to ask who cares? These characters are not important to the main story in any way, or have yet to be shown to influence anything. I feel that this whole ogre plot is specifically set up so we can be introduced to the crew on a more personal level.
Okay, thanks for clarifying.


Another relevant Giant quote: (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19125267&postcount=151)
To be blunt, having a plan doesn't justify much if the end result- or even intermediate segments- is something a reader finds boring, padded or artificial. I won't weigh in on every segment of the plot that might qualify- I'm sure it varies with the reader- but "I had reasons for X, leading to Y" gets you into a cost-benefit analysis about whether Y was worth the expense of X.

I'm afraid I tuned out of the main strip a while ago, so I can't comment very sensibly about the airship crew, but I did feel that a plot segment intended to develop Durkon can't actually develop Durkon when Durkon has no say in the proceedings, and that's (apparently) been going on for a while. If the purpose of all the bruhaha is to invest us in the characters, that doesn't seem an efficient approach.

oppyu
2017-06-17, 05:20 AM
To the core question of the thread, yes The Giant is still trying to tell a story. That's never really been in question.

As for the criticisms, well, everyone has an opinion. People have been saying that arcs are filler and the story hasn't been moving fast enough for literally for real over a decade. Over that time, The Giant has continued to space out his arcs as he's seen fit and explained why he thinks the people who think he should stop messing around with side plot B and get on with things are missing the point. People have continued to have complaints regardless, such is the nature of subjectivity.

My take is that I've consistently enjoyed OOTS through the arcs, whether they've been about fighting the big bad to protect the plot bauble, or going shopping. I like the characters and I like spending time with them, and while I do wish the story would progress it's a "I am engaged and this is suspenseful I want to know what will happen" wish, not a "this sucks get the plot bauble already" wish. Also Bandana and the Mechane are cool and I've enjoyed this leadership storyline.

Another note, these feel differently paced when read in book form. The lack of a regular update schedule probably contributes to the sentiment that the story should move faster.

Emperor Demonking
2017-06-17, 06:28 AM
And what makes you so certain that this will remain true? The plot is to a large extent planned quite far in advance. All of this could be essential setup for things that will become important later. And in the mean time, this story is more about characters than about saving the world. And Bandana and Andi are characters in the story that have presently important roles.

Or, to quote The Giant:

Is not the obvious rebuttal to that is that even if Andi - justly chastised for her Miko-like awfulness - is an important character in saving the world. That she still isn't part of the Order of The Stick and that (to also quote The Giant): The strip is titled The Order of the Stick, not The Chase for the Snarl or even Saving the World.

The punchline in the last comic is that the order literally knows nothing of the main story of the last pages.

eggynack
2017-06-17, 06:45 AM
This kind of criticism, that what's going on right now doesn't matter, seems so odd to me, mainly because there are pretty clear ways for it to matter. Like, Andi just mutinied, and had the mutiny turned aside, with the team in roughly the situation they were in at the start. They lost their guns, of course, and that could easily prove vital, but that's like any other weapon-ish thing based plot. The team is going to win or lose fights due to broader plot reasons, and the specific weaponry available is only relevant insofar as it impacts the specific way they'll win or lose. The Order is split, and the sword is off the beaten path, and those things could be relevant, but again, we're in pretty low level conflict territory here. It could be massively impactful, but it's not all that thematically relevant, and it'd be weird for that to be a serious plot a second time. So, we're kinda returned to the status quo, everything calm after the big battle with maybe a few losses along the way.

Except, no matter what else happens, the situation is now inherently different. A person on the ship just committed a mutiny, and while they were in an all hands on deck situation before, they're not in as much of one now. What do they even do about that? Bandanna could kill her, or she could toss her, which would be pretty similar to killing her in these crazy mountains, or she could toss her in a brig, or, and here's the most likely outcome, she could keep Andi on board, to do Andi things. Because they need an engineer, even if it's one who might have just revealed themselves as evil.

If you haven't noticed yet, that's ridiculously similar to what's already going on in the main plot. The Order kept Durkon around even after everyone knew he was evil, partially out of loyalty to the person they knew/thought they knew, and partially because they're trying to save the world and they could really use someone to fix things when monsters attack. But Roy just lived through that situation, so does he force Bandanna to take one of the paths where Andi doesn't stay on board? Does he never find out, creating a microcosm of the main plot? Does he make the same mistake a second time? Is he the only one to support Bandanna when she decides to take a less friendly path? And how does Andi react to all this stuff?

So now we got all this great plot stuff. We have parallelism and thus thematic resonance with the A-plot, we have a serious and emotional issue that more directly involves the Order, and we get some seriously interesting suspense and tension. Hell, we might even get some real insight into the A-plot. By which I mean, we could learn that there's a big difference between having Belkar on your team and having Durkula or Andi on your team, because the problem with the latter two characters wasn't precisely that they were evil. Said difference being, Belkar is actually somewhat loyal to the team, whatever his devotion to mayhem, and he has been for awhile, before even the Shojo dream thing. That counts for a lot, and it's a quality that we never really had the opportunity to ascribe to either Durkula or Andi. This is a pirate crew. Being a little evil might just be part of the job. But turning on your captain when their back is facing you, that's a serious problem.

I don't know how anyone could look at all those possibilities and say, "Nah, none of this is relevant to anything that's happening, and it might as well not happen at all." It might not be relevant at this exact second, but that's such a short sighted view, one that ignores the way that earlier books had technically unnecessary strip sequences reinforce the more obvious main plot. What would Tarquin's utter misreading of what the narrative is, trying to force Elan into the main character niche, be without similar things happening earlier in the book, namely regarding Girard's illusory interaction with the Order, and Ian's interaction with Haley and Elan? Hell, where would the current plot, which was initiated partially due to Roy layering his memories of Durkon onto Durkula, be without all that stuff? I have no doubt that what's happening now will go somewhere awesome.

SilverCacaobean
2017-06-17, 06:47 AM
-On a separate issue the fact that it is even against the rules to do such a thing is ridiculous in and of itself. I can understand you would not like hearing over and over how long it is taking to finish the comic or post updates, but its a valid concern for people to have. Not advocating for or against either side here.

Rich has said all he's ever going to say about the update schedule and it's not up for conversation. At the very best threads about it would be pointless complaining. At worst very stressful for the creator. Maybe you're one of those people who thinks that stress is for the weak or something and he should grow thicker skin, but that's an easy thing to say when you've created nothing in your entire life. I've yet to hear a creator say that stress is not an issue. Besides, you can talk about it as much as you like, just not here. Is that too much to ask?


2. Am I a troll? No.

3. On complaining about free content: The webcomic is free, but if you want the entire story you need to buy the prequel books. Its freemium content, and if I have paid for something I have the right to express my opinion of the quality of the product or the product that is currently in the works, such as the NEXT book being put out.

I'm not sure why giving someone money for their work makes some people so entitled. If you think anyone is annoyed because you dislike the direction the work has taken and not because of your tone, you're mistaken. Paid or no, don't have that tone. Besides, when you pay for something OotS, you pay for a complete book, nothing else. You don't pay to get a faster update schedule, or a say in what the next book will be, or to suddenly have a right to be boorish. That's also a very interesting use of the word freemium, a word which is usually reserved for applications that have lite versions for free and usually force you to buy if you want full functionality. As far as I'm concerned, as long as the story is perfectly coherent without buying anything, calling it freemium is stretching it.


4. The kick starter issue: The kick starter was done for REPRINTS of the original books, and I have no problem with that, I was able to buy the books after the kick starter. What I have an issue with is the fact that BEFORE the kick starter the webcomic was the main focus, now as some have said, Mr. Burlew has had to change his priorites towards fulfilling pledges. How long has it been since the kick starter came out? 2012? The time it takes to update is not the important part here, its weather or not the STORY QUALITY is impacted by the webcomic not being the main focus. My argument of course being how long its taken in IN COMIC TIME to accomplish anything in this new story arc. It is my opinion and nothing more and having examples of where I think the story should have gone a different path are irrelevant. What is relevant is that this comic has been impacted negatively from having to fulfill obligations to backers. Some may agree some may disagree, but I know a few people have posted in this thread agreeing with me.

Posting examples is irrelevant? Are you serious? Posting examples is the whole point of a conversation like this. So what if some people agree with you? Are you trying to start a conversation here, or gather a mob of dissatisfied people for whatever purpose? I mean the Giant has explicitly denied his pledges influence story quality and I have no reason to believe he'd compromise the quality of his art for this, since he doesn't even have an update schedule. What would be the point? As far as I know the only thing that has suffered because of the kickstarter pledges is the updates and you didn't try to make a case for the opposite, just let us know that some people agree with you. As you know, the truth isn't impacted by what people agree on.


5. Do I know Mr. Burlew is trying? Of course I know this. I am venting frustration towards the meta story than to the creator himself. I have nothing but respect for what Mr. Burlew is doing, and wish him luck on finishing his magnum opus.

6. I understand my original post was vague.

Just keep in mind that venting in public places can have a negative impact on the one you're venting about. Besides, why vent, instead of expanding on your frustration. What kind of conversation are you expecting if you just vent?


-I don't think this entire segment needed to be done. Ask yourself what has happened since they left the Godsmoot. Anything important?
The words "need" and "important" can't be used in a vacuum. There needs to be a purpose for them to have any meaning. Why didn't it need to be done? Important for what? By the way, since the Godsmoot ended, we've learned that Lien and O-Chul reached Xykon, that Xykon has allied himself with a bugbear village, that Xykon is already trying to reach the last gate, we got an idea of the gate's defences, we saw the MitD trying to sabotage team evil's efforts, we started calling the vampire "Greg" and we know Thrym wants the world to end enough that he ordered his frost giants to halt the Order's progress. Oh, there was also a mutiny and Roy dropped his sword. Are any of these events important to you?


I was under the impression that'd we would be finally be confronting Xykon and getting down to the most important battle in the strips history <This is an opinion.
Your opinion is wrong. This is the penultimate book.


What I see happening feels more like FILLER.
People who say this word have something in common with people who say "Deus ex machina"; They have no idea what the words mean.


Were just supposed to now care about whats happening with Bandanna and the crew, whole strips have been dedicated to their own struggles with whats happening, and I have to ask who cares? These characters are not important to the main story in any way, or have yet to be shown to influence anything. I feel that this whole ogre plot is specifically set up so we can be introduced to the crew on a more personal level. It throws off any suspense of racing to get to Xykon when were still talking about who gets to lead the ship. Does it matter who is behind the wheel of the airship? Is that central to Roy stabbing Xykon? I dont know. Just seems unimportant compared to what we could be reading about. Again it is just an opinion.

Since the beginning of the strip, every other book is decidedly NOT about Xykon. That's half the story. And the one you call the "Main story" is the other half. Since you only care about half the story I have to tell you this is going to be one of the "other" books. This story won't be about Xykon, it will be about Durkon and Greg. And since when do more obstacles throw off suspense?


ogre plot
Riiiight.

EDIT:

I don't know how anyone could look at all those possibilities and say, "Nah, none of this is relevant to anything that's happening, and it might as well not happen at all." It might not be relevant at this exact second, but that's such a short sighted view, one that ignores the way that earlier books had technically immediate strip sequences reinforce the more obvious main plot. What would Tarquin's utter misreading of what the narrative is, trying to force Elan into the main character niche, be without similar things happening earlier in the book, namely regarding Girard's illusory interaction with the Order, and Ian's interaction with Haley and Elan? Hell, where would the current plot, which was initiated partially due to Roy layering his memories of Durkon onto Durkula, be without all that stuff? I have no doubt that what's happening now will go somewhere awesome.
+1

Lacuna Caster
2017-06-17, 07:19 AM
Rich has said all he's ever going to say about the update schedule and it's not up for conversation. At the very best threads about it would be pointless complaining. At worst very stressful for the creator. Maybe you're one of those people who thinks that stress is for the weak or something and he should grow thicker skin, but that's an easy thing to say when you've created nothing in your entire life...
Hang on a second. You don't know the first thing about what the OP has or hasn't created. That's uncalled for.

Secondly, I would say that anyone, for any reason, is perfectly entitled to criticise a work, regardless of whether it's free or paid for, regardless of whether they like or loathe any or all parts of it. The only criterion that should apply is the cogency of the argument, and whether it's redundant or not.


I have no doubt that what's happening now will go somewhere awesome.
Eh, Nale's introduction arguably had a payoff in the sense that he finally got 2 pages of dramatic development 800 strips later, but that's a pretty lousy return on investment.

eggynack
2017-06-17, 07:25 AM
Eh, Nale's introduction arguably had a payoff in the sense that he finally got 2 pages of dramatic development 800 strips later, but that's a pretty lousy return on investment.
Not sure if you're joking. Nale has had massive and obvious impact on the plot, and had thematic connection to tons of stuff in the story, up to and including acting as the main antagonist in like two separate books. You may or may not like him, but his existence has had story payoffs in a million different ways.

Lacuna Caster
2017-06-17, 07:34 AM
Not sure if you're joking. Nale has had massive and obvious impact on the plot, and had thematic connection to tons of stuff in the story, up to and including acting as the main antagonist in like two separate books. You may or may not like him, but his existence has had story payoffs in a million different ways.
Of course he's had impact on the plot, because large portions of the plot consisted of Nale doing stuff. It's tautological.

But arguing that he was intrinsically necessary to various other events is a bit of a hollow argument (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?524518-Kickstarter-Discussion-Thread-How-the-Paladin-Got-His-Scar-(SPOILERS!)&p=22034990&viewfull=1#post22034990). There could have been other ways to engineer the same events, or maybe those events weren't all that intrinsically important- I don't know, I'm not a professional writer. But I suspect that writers exist which would pull it off.

.

eggynack
2017-06-17, 07:41 AM
Of course he's had impact on the plot, because large portions of the plot consisted of Nale doing stuff. It's tautological.

But arguing that he was intrinsically necessary to various events is a bit of a hollow argument (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?524518-Kickstarter-Discussion-Thread-How-the-Paladin-Got-His-Scar-(SPOILERS!)&p=22034990&viewfull=1#post22034990). There could have been other ways to engineer the same events, or maybe those events weren't all that intrinsically important- I don't if know, I'm not a professional writer. But I suspects that writers exist which would pull it off.
To say there could be other ways to engineer the same events is equally hollow, as arguments go. But Nale is more than a plot device. He acts as a direct foil for all kinds of characters. And, once you're at, "He's a foil to these specific characters in these specific ways," territory, it's hard to say that a different character could plausibly fill the same role. What happened in the latest book was especially Nale reliant, and not just in the form of a couple of strips, because his interactions and relationship with Tarquin defined a lot of how we understand Tarquin.

SilverCacaobean
2017-06-17, 07:42 AM
Hang on a second. You don't know the first thing about what the OP has or hasn't created. That's uncalled for.

Secondly, I would say that anyone, for any reason, is perfectly entitled to criticise a work, regardless of whether it's free or paid for, regardless of whether they like or loathe any or all parts of it. The only criterion that should apply is the cogency of the argument, and whether it's redundant or not.

I said that my experience is that I have seen no creator claim that stress isn't an issue. Even if I myself wouldn't get stressed by schedule threads, if Rich does, it's a very valid reason to ban these discussions. Creation needs focus and judging by when Rich answers one of these threads, they distract him, so they're out. The you in the sentence you quoted is a general you, not directed at ATrueFan. Though, since we got here, I really doubt they're a creator.

Critisism is judgement and there was not judgement of the work on the first post, just complaining. With the second post I disagree with for the reasons I outlined. Criticism can be criticised too.

Emperor Demonking
2017-06-17, 08:11 AM
This kind of criticism, that what's going on right now doesn't matter, seems so odd to me, mainly because there are pretty clear ways for it to matter. Like, Andi just mutinied, and had the mutiny turned aside, with the team in roughly the situation they were in at the start. They lost their guns, of course, and that could easily prove vital, but that's like any other weapon-ish thing based plot. The team is going to win or lose fights due to broader plot reasons, and the specific weaponry available is only relevant insofar as it impacts the specific way they'll win or lose. The Order is split, and the sword is off the beaten path, and those things could be relevant, but again, we're in pretty low level conflict territory here. It could be massively impactful, but it's not all that thematically relevant, and it'd be weird for that to be a serious plot a second time. So, we're kinda returned to the status quo, everything calm after the big battle with maybe a few losses along the way.

Except, no matter what else happens, the situation is now inherently different. A person on the ship just committed a mutiny, and while they were in an all hands on deck situation before, they're not in as much of one now. What do they even do about that? Bandanna could kill her, or she could toss her, which would be pretty similar to killing her in these crazy mountains, or she could toss her in a brig, or, and here's the most likely outcome, she could keep Andi on board, to do Andi things. Because they need an engineer, even if it's one who might have just revealed themselves as evil.

If you haven't noticed yet, that's ridiculously similar to what's already going on in the main plot. The Order kept Durkon around even after everyone knew he was evil, partially out of loyalty to the person they knew/thought they knew, and partially because they're trying to save the world and they could really use someone to fix things when monsters attack. But Roy just lived through that situation, so does he force Bandanna to take one of the paths where Andi doesn't stay on board? Does he never find out, creating a microcosm of the main plot? Does he make the same mistake a second time? Is he the only one to support Bandanna when she decides to take a less friendly path? And how does Andi react to all this stuff?

So now we got all this great plot stuff. We have parallelism and thus thematic resonance with the A-plot, we have a serious and emotional issue that more directly involves the Order, and we get some seriously interesting suspense and tension. Hell, we might even get some real insight into the A-plot. By which I mean, we could learn that there's a big difference between having Belkar on your team and having Durkula or Andi on your team, because the problem with the latter two characters wasn't precisely that they were evil. Said difference being, Belkar is actually somewhat loyal to the team, whatever his devotion to mayhem, and he has been for awhile, before even the Shojo dream thing. That counts for a lot, and it's a quality that we never really had the opportunity to ascribe to either Durkula or Andi. This is a pirate crew. Being a little evil might just be part of the job. But turning on your captain when their back is facing you, that's a serious problem.

I don't know how anyone could look at all those possibilities and say, "Nah, none of this is relevant to anything that's happening, and it might as well not happen at all." It might not be relevant at this exact second, but that's such a short sighted view, one that ignores the way that earlier books had technically unnecessary strip sequences reinforce the more obvious main plot. What would Tarquin's utter misreading of what the narrative is, trying to force Elan into the main character niche, be without similar things happening earlier in the book, namely regarding Girard's illusory interaction with the Order, and Ian's interaction with Haley and Elan? Hell, where would the current plot, which was initiated partially due to Roy layering his memories of Durkon onto Durkula, be without all that stuff? I have no doubt that what's happening now will go somewhere awesome.

Smacking somebody with power over you who had just finished screaming a sarcastic jab at you after possibly leading you to your near death does not possibly qualify as evil. Going down deck to save the engines even though the personal consequences to you could be worse that death (disgrace then death) is possibly good.

Although, the cleric-engineer thing is cute. I don't think Durkula and Andi really work.

(The 'back is facing you' is - I think - literally wrong, btw, although she was looking the other way.)

Kish
2017-06-17, 08:22 AM
Ah, so there are still people willing to stretch to defend Andi's actions on this board. I wondered if they'd all disappeared entirely.

Lacuna, no one here needs to justify Nale's inclusion in the comic--you need to make an actual case, rather than a dismissive quip, that he has no value to the comic, if you want such to be taken seriously, because Rich's target audience is more invested in Elan's family struggles and growth as a result of them than you apparently are.

Lacuna Caster
2017-06-17, 08:38 AM
To say there could be other ways to engineer the same events is equally hollow, as arguments go. But Nale is more than a plot device. He acts as a direct foil for all kinds of characters. And, once you're at, "He's a foil to these specific characters in these specific ways," territory, it's hard to say that a different character could plausibly fill the same role.
Yeah, but... that's like saying "the jigsaw maker had to cut this shape for this piece, or it wouldn't fit with all the other pieces"... when the jigsaw maker decided the shape of all the other pieces it had to fit with in the first place. It's a variant of the thermian argument (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxV8gAGmbtk), and I ultimately don't care about how the pieces fit. I care about the picture on the box.

If we assume, for example, that Nale's involvement was, somehow, 100% necessary for positioning Haley to be heroically rescued by Elan at a critical moment when she was maximally vulnerable, can we pause to reflect on how the strip's main female protagonist is thus rendered wholly dependant on a man's emotional validation? To the extent that he can immediately cure (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3_NELleDYc) serious neurological dysfunctions?

I can allow that his relationship to Tarquin comes up a fair bit, but does he need to be a mono-dimensional moustache-twirling churl driven by the flimsiest of grudges for hundreds of strips beforehand in order for that to work? I realise that a Nale who doesn't match that description is effectively a different character with the same name, but I also don't see a problem with that.

eggynack
2017-06-17, 08:41 AM
Smacking somebody with power over you who had just finished screaming a sarcastic jab at you after possibly leading you to your near death does not possibly qualify as evil. Going down deck to save the engines even though the personal consequences to you could be worse that death (disgrace then death) is possibly good.
I'm going to start with the overriding textual thing here, rather than my direct super disagreement. That being, whether your opinion on this is a reasonable one or not, the narrative itself seems to think Andi did a really awful thing. I don't know if evil is necessarily the word to use, but seriously seriously bad is fitting. Given that the text agrees with me, and it does in a number of places, the connections and such I'm discussing could easily come to pass, whether you agree with the premise or not.

Moreover, the situation with Andi does not have to be the same as the one with Durkula for parallelism to exist. In fact, the situation shouldn't be the same at all. Contrasts with the central situation should ideally throw said situation into a harsh relief, such that we learn new things instead of relearning the old. Recall, after all, that the Ian conflict was super different from the one with Tarquin. Ian was pushing Haley and Elan into these boxes, but he wasn't willing to go to nearly the same lengths to enforce those boxes, he genuinely felt sorry for the way he raised Haley, and he was ultimately willing to accept a plan from Elan, showing the capacity to change. This story could end with Andi fully redeemed, and still have a ton of thematic connection to the main plot. There's a ton of directions this subplot could go that aren't all that close to what we'd expect out of the Durkula plot, and it could still support that main plot.

That all being said, you're wrong, at least to the extent that you seem to be justifying what Andi did. If you're just literally quarreling with the use of the term evil, on a, "Wow, that's a really loaded term right there, especially in a world where evil has this supernatural element to it," I guess that's fine, but I don't think that's where you're going. Anyway, Andi didn't just spontaneously hit Bandanna with a wrench. She waited a second to do it, and then she tied Bandanna up instead of setting it up so that Bandanna could take over the ship afterwards, and then she gave some really really awful reasons for doing all that, and didn't untie her. You can say that Andi didn't mean for the wrench hit to represent a mutiny, but literally everything she did after that point supported its nature as a mutiny. Bandanna was correct in her ship based decision making at basically every step as well, as we saw when Andi attempted one of her alternate plans.

And, as I pointed out in my post, it's not all about evil, or badness. It's about disloyalty, to some extent. Durkula is evil, sure, but that in itself wasn't exactly the issue. As Durkula himself pointed out way back when, evil people like the world too. The problem is that Durkula was loyal to Hel rather than Roy, and had his own agenda. Belkar isn't really loyal to non-Roy entities, and his agenda was incredibly limited in scope up until it became actively positive. Andi, like Durkula, seeks power and doesn't want to be subordinate to someone she sees as inferior, above and beyond her desire for the world to exist, or for the best possible outcomes to occur regarding the ship. Her entire justification for her decision making is that she's the one making the decisions. It has no basis in any kind of external reality.

And no, working on the ship is not evidence of Andi being good to any extent. Up to that point, she probably thought she was going to literally get thrown off the ship, and attacking the captain when she's both facing you directly and surrounded by people that know your ideas are dumb is ridiculously stupid. At best, this is evidence that Andi is capable of being marginally rational, because her best hope of survival lies in whatever Bandanna's plan is, and in not pissing her captain off. What do you expect her to do? Not help while they're surrounded by mountains and under attack? Hit Bandanna in the head again? I wouldn't put these things past Andi, but that is only because I have a ridiculously low opinion of her.




(The 'back is facing you' is - I think - literally wrong, btw, although she was looking the other way.)
I guess? She's kinda turned away wholly when the wrench hit her, though that could be momentum. There's a heavy idiomatic element to the phrase as well, though, "With her back turned," might have made the meaning more clear.

Leirus
2017-06-17, 08:51 AM
A lot of people have posted in this thread regarding specifics to my criticism of the OOTS webcomic.

Well I am here to give specifics.

1. Several people have pointed out that I may be breaking the rules of the forum by mentioning the time it takes for an update. I wish to clarify that in no way do I care about how often this comic updates. It will be finished when it is finished as all great works of art should be.
-On a separate issue the fact that it is even against the rules to do such a thing is ridiculous in and of itself. I can understand you would not like hearing over and over how long it is taking to finish the comic or post updates, but its a valid concern for people to have. Not advocating for or against either side here.

2. Am I a troll? No.

3. On complaining about free content: The webcomic is free, but if you want the entire story you need to buy the prequel books. Its freemium content, and if I have paid for something I have the right to express my opinion of the quality of the product or the product that is currently in the works, such as the NEXT book being put out.

4. The kick starter issue: The kick starter was done for REPRINTS of the original books, and I have no problem with that, I was able to buy the books after the kick starter. What I have an issue with is the fact that BEFORE the kick starter the webcomic was the main focus, now as some have said, Mr. Burlew has had to change his priorites towards fulfilling pledges. How long has it been since the kick starter came out? 2012? The time it takes to update is not the important part here, its weather or not the STORY QUALITY is impacted by the webcomic not being the main focus. My argument of course being how long its taken in IN COMIC TIME to accomplish anything in this new story arc. It is my opinion and nothing more and having examples of where I think the story should have gone a different path are irrelevant. What is relevant is that this comic has been impacted negatively from having to fulfill obligations to backers. Some may agree some may disagree, but I know a few people have posted in this thread agreeing with me.

5. Do I know Mr. Burlew is trying? Of course I know this. I am venting frustration towards the meta story than to the creator himself. I have nothing but respect for what Mr. Burlew is doing, and wish him luck on finishing his magnum opus.

6. I understand my original post was vague.

7.

-I don't think this entire segment needed to be done. Ask yourself what has happened since they left the Godsmoot. Anything important? I was under the impression that'd we would be finally be confronting Xykon and getting down to the most important battle in the strips history <This is an opinion. What I see happening feels more like FILLER. Were just supposed to now care about whats happening with Bandanna and the crew, whole strips have been dedicated to their own struggles with whats happening, and I have to ask who cares? These characters are not important to the main story in any way, or have yet to be shown to influence anything. I feel that this whole ogre plot is specifically set up so we can be introduced to the crew on a more personal level. It throws off any suspense of racing to get to Xykon when were still talking about who gets to lead the ship. Does it matter who is behind the wheel of the airship? Is that central to Roy stabbing Xykon? I dont know. Just seems unimportant compared to what we could be reading about. Again it is just an opinion.

8. I just want this comic to succeed in the best way possible.

And thats it so far. Will look for more posts and reply when I can.


-ATrueFan


Look the quality of the story has not changed. I could be argued that the nature of the story has, becoming more coral as it grows and more people becomes involved in saving the world. I will tell you, one of my favourite strips is #550, where the friendship between O´Chul and the MitD starts. ¿Did they matter to the story back then?. You could say no at the moment, but they ended up being essential: the Monster saved V, and he is currently delaying Xykon. This story is bigger than you seem to think. I for one would like to know what is going on with Haley's dad and his merry rebel group, because if the ending ends up somehow becoming an epic planet-wide battle with the Order at its center I feel they could be relevant, with that rift in the desert at all.

I feel that your complaints steam actually for two points, the pace and a misconception that they were heading towards Xykon.

You could be forgiven for the second one, as the Oots was desperately trying to reach the Gate before the Godsmoot, but we have since been shown that Xykon has been delayed (by secondary characters, I may stress) and the most pressing menace right now are the gods themselves, not Xykon. If they do not stop vampire Durkon, Xykon will be obliterated along everyone else.

The slower pace a little while ago may have made you impatient, but your argument is quite weak. The order is not "Freemium". The whole story is in the free strips, the rest are more work from the same author, but in no way necessary. You can get the Lord of the Rings for free, but you are paying the Silmarillion. And even if one were to accept that paying for the peripheral books gives you some right about the Oots, would that same principle not apply to the kickstarter backers that literally payed for the main story? In your own view, their rights should triumph yours.

And the problem here is your tone. I have been reading this strip for more years than I care to admit, and the "is even trying" is really, really grating and gratuitously rude. Specially after the author coming out to say that the pace was slower for a while because he had to complete the kickstarter promises. Vent your frustration in more creative ways.

eggynack
2017-06-17, 08:59 AM
Yeah, but... that's like saying "the jigsaw maker had to cut this shape for this piece, or it wouldn't fit with all the other pieces"... when the jigsaw maker decided the shape of all the other pieces it had to fit with in the first place. It's a variant of the thermian argument (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxV8gAGmbtk), and I ultimately don't care about how the pieces fit. I care about the picture on the box.
But now you're saying that we should change the entire story and the characters within it to suit the loss of Nale, in a sense. That kinda proves his relevance to the story in itself, I think. I mean, the story doesn't need Xykon or Redcloak to be around, y'know? We could just change a ton of stuff about the story, character motivations, theming, plotlines, and just pull him out.


If we assume, for example, that Nale's involvement was, somehow, 100% necessary for positioning Haley to be heroically rescued by Elan at a critical moment when she was maximally vulnerable, can we pause to reflect on how the strip's main female protagonist is thus rendered wholly dependant on a man's emotional validation? To the extent that he can immediately cure (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3_NELleDYc) serious neurological dysfunctions?
That's not really all Nale was there for. His relationship with Haley was being contrasted with that between Elan and Haley, and his position within the party had some of that to it as well. It's not like he was attacking Haley for all that long either. He spent a lot of time getting Elan imprisoned, a lot of time blending in, and then very little time setting Haley up to be rescued. The way you characterize the plot in general is weird as well. Haley isn't dependent on Elan's emotional validation at all. Elan could have turned her down and Haley still would have been fine. Haley was saved primarily by her exerting her agency, breaking her pattern of not trusting folks by telling the truth. Elan didn't do anything to cure her, aside from literally be present. I'm actually kinda curious about whether she would have been cured by confessing to Nale, making Elan's presence wholly unnecessary. It's a possibility. Elan coming to Haley's rescue represented his own developmental arc, a journey simultaneously towards effectiveness and control over the narrative. His arc doesn't diminish Haley's though, especially because Haley's arc is way more central and important, at least in terms of stuff that had lead up to it. In a sense, that sequence was actually the beginning of Elan's arc that was maybe concluded with the Tarquin conflict, while it was in the middle of Haley's trust/internal conflict arc that started somewhere between the end of the inn sequence and her meeting the doctor.


I can allow that his relationship to Tarquin comes up a fair bit, but does he need to be a mono-dimensional moustache-twirling churl driven by the flimsiest of grudges for hundreds of strips beforehand in order for that to work? I realise that a Nale who doesn't match that description is effectively a different character with the same name, but I also don't see a problem with that.
I just don't see Nale as nearly this one dimensional. Mostly because I can name all kinds of other dimensions. Pride, love of complexity, super close relationship with his team, a single-minded focus, need to be the center of attention, actually pretty great plan creation, and others. If you read Rich's comments on the subject in Blood Runs in the Family, you'll find that Tarquin was developed particularly in terms of the way he could generate Nale's existence, as much as he was in terms of Elan's narrative control stuff. Nale isn't quite at Redcloak levels, but he's a complex and well developed character in his own right.

Lacuna Caster
2017-06-17, 09:15 AM
But now you're saying that we should change the entire story and the characters within it to suit the loss of Nale, in a sense. That kinda proves his relevance to the story in itself, I think.
Yes, but it's not an argument in favour of the story either. A story which is integrally dependent on the involvement of a character I consider to be painfully tired and cliché is probably a suboptimal story unless you can prove that the payoff is outstanding. I don't think the payoff was, and I question how integral Nale-as-defined was to those outcomes.


Haley isn't dependent on Elan's emotional validation at all. Elan could have turned her down and Haley still would have been fine.
You've got to be kidding me. Whatever you think of Elan's arc in itself, he's been fairly consistently portrayed as the linchpin of Haley's development since before the Inn scene.

I'm sorry, I just don't see Nale as being well or realistically developed. I think he's essentially a walking rube goldberg device and made about as much sense.

Emperor Demonking
2017-06-17, 09:19 AM
I'm going to start with the overriding textual thing here, rather than my direct super disagreement. That being, whether your opinion on this is a reasonable one or not, the narrative itself seems to think Andi did a really awful thing. I don't know if evil is necessarily the word to use, but seriously seriously bad is fitting. Given that the text agrees with me, and it does in a number of places, the connections and such I'm discussing could easily come to pass, whether you agree with the premise or not.

The second-from-last panel in the most recent strip has Bandanna forgiving the mutineers. Noticably, it is not Andi alone looking downcasted and chastened but two others. Obviously, Andi is uniquely worse, but the most recent string does not seem to be agreeing with you that she is uniquely bad. But that if Andi is rotten then so are those other two (which destroys the parralell).



Moreover, the situation with Andi does not have to be the same as the one with Durkula for parallelism to exist. In fact, the situation shouldn't be the same at all. Contrasts with the central situation should ideally throw said situation into a harsh relief, such that we learn new things instead of relearning the old. Recall, after all, that the Ian conflict was super different from the one with Tarquin. Ian was pushing Haley and Elan into these boxes, but he wasn't willing to go to nearly the same lengths to enforce those boxes, he genuinely felt sorry for the way he raised Haley, and he was ultimately willing to accept a plan from Elan, showing the capacity to change. This story could end with Andi fully redeemed, and still have a ton of thematic connection to the main plot. There's a ton of directions this subplot could go that aren't all that close to what we'd expect out of the Durkula plot, and it could still support that main plot.

If andi is rdeemed (or if she isn't) what is it that you think we will learn about Durkula. I've sincerely thought about it a little and can't think of anything. So I'm curious what it is. If they make it there on time, it is because Andi didn't say seeya when Julio passed so, 'accepting durkula was a good idea, just dodgy luck that it nearly ended the world?'






That all being said, you're wrong, at least to the extent that you seem to be justifying what Andi did. If you're just literally quarreling with the use of the term evil, on a, "Wow, that's a really loaded term right there, especially in a world where evil has this supernatural element to it," I guess that's fine, but I don't think that's where you're going. Anyway, Andi didn't just spontaneously hit Bandanna with a wrench. She waited a second to do it, and then she tied Bandanna up instead of setting it up so that Bandanna could take over the ship afterwards, and then she gave some really really awful reasons for doing all that, and didn't untie her. You can say that Andi didn't mean for the wrench hit to represent a mutiny, but literally everything she did after that point supported its nature as a mutiny. Bandanna was correct in her ship based decision making at basically every step as well, as we saw when Andi attempted one of her alternate plans.

Her biggest ship-based plan was deciding to prioritise venting her frustration of a scared underling over giving instructions on which of the numerous things she lead to breaking to fix first. Any failed plans of Andi follow from that descision of Bandanna.

I don't think 'wait' is justified by the comic. We've got her still with anger in one panel - I would suggest because of Bandanna's actions in the previous one - and in the very next panel she's striking with the wrench. There's no room for her anger to subside and to then choose to wait.

The crew obviously needed leadership while Bandanna was busy being unconscious. And even when complaining about the mutiny, Carol didn't disagree with Andi's statement that leaving her untied would have her flop around get hurt.

The hitting with the wrench did represent mutiny - they could not go with being unlead at such a time - but even those strongly opposed to a mutiny could disagree with the thrust of her making descisions once the mutiny had been made.




And, as I pointed out in my post, it's not all about evil, or badness. It's about disloyalty, to some extent. Durkula is evil, sure, but that in itself wasn't exactly the issue. As Durkula himself pointed out way back when, evil people like the world too. The problem is that Durkula was loyal to Hel rather than Roy, and had his own agenda. Belkar isn't really loyal to non-Roy entities, and his agenda was incredibly limited in scope up until it became actively positive. Andi, like Durkula, seeks power and doesn't want to be subordinate to someone she sees as inferior, above and beyond her desire for the world to exist, or for the best possible outcomes to occur regarding the ship. Her entire justification for her decision making is that she's the one making the decisions. It has no basis in any kind of external reality.

The reason why Bandanna is making different - and successful - descisions from Andi is that Rich gave her secret and necessary information to save the day. You can't deduce that her descision-making methods are unhinged just because the descisions she made were worse since she didn't have that secret knowledge.




And no, working on the ship is not evidence of Andi being good to any extent. Up to that point, she probably thought she was going to literally get thrown off the ship, and attacking the captain when she's both facing you directly and surrounded by people that know your ideas are dumb is ridiculously stupid. At best, this is evidence that Andi is capable of being marginally rational, because her best hope of survival lies in whatever Bandanna's plan is, and in not pissing her captain off. What do you expect her to do? Not help while they're surrounded by mountains and under attack? Hit Bandanna in the head again? I wouldn't put these things past Andi, but that is only because I have a ridiculously low opinion of her.

By working on the engine I was referring to when she was wearing both the captain's and engineer's hat. It was going to work on the engine that allowed Bandanna her monologue - a fact Bandanna herself states.

I do agree that we are supposed to think of Awful Andi, but if that is the point isn't it a problem that there were enough of us sympathetic to her that we needed to be chased out with pitchforks - and on the other hand those more hostile to her than they are of Durkula - a sign that something went wrong.

And as I said before it isn't just Andi who lacks loyalty to Bandanna comparable to the order to Roy its the whole crew. So I'm unsure what sort of thing you think could happen that will makes this all thematically satisfying.

Vinyadan
2017-06-17, 09:27 AM
Meh. It's all very neutral to me. The comic quality is the same as always. The comic had a funny disjointed strip time, a plot time (the first attack on Xykon), another rather disjointed strip time preparing for the new arc, and then the Azure city arc and since then it's been very constant on the plot. In all of these times, the comic has been good. The only thing that imho fell flat was the "I had a girlfriend" thing by Bandana, because every time such relationship stuff has been brought up I can remember, it actually had a use within the plot/characters beyond "got new clothes". Like how parents are the source of drama, Celia's old boyfriend's behaviour is why Celia defends the Order in the trial, Cousin Sheila is a large afterthought about Elan and Haley's family, Tarquin's way with wives is proof of his evilness, Roy's first time is named to start his reflection about being back to life, V being married turning his image on its head...
Anyway, Bandana has now completed her introductory arc. She's now an interesting character, which will probably add to the comic enjoyment later.

So the only thing that has changed is WHAT SHALL NOT BE NAMED! Sure, more is better than less. But that's all there is to say.

eggynack
2017-06-17, 09:29 AM
Yes, but it's not an argument in favour of the story either. A story which is integrally dependent on the involvement of a character I consider to be painfully tired and cliché is probably a suboptimal story unless you can prove that the payoff is outstanding. I don't think the payoff was, and I question how integral Nale-as-defined was to those outcomes.
So, literally your entire argument is, "I don't like Nale." Which is fine, I guess, but it doesn't really have anything to do with what we're talking about. Whatever you think of his character, he's obviously provided a ton of awesome payoffs, and the payoff is what you were contesting in the first place. He generated interesting plotlines (whether you liked the things Nale was directly doing or not), he had direct thematic purpose, he brought about character development, and he just generally had a ton of awesome and story useful payoff, much of it directly dependent on his nature as a character. You can think that all that great stuff is not worth having Nale or whatever, but that doesn't mean there wasn't a ton of great stuff, and said great stuff was the thing you were initially disputing.

Basically, if this Andi plotline has, like, a tenth of the awesome and interesting outcomes that Nale's plotlines have had, then that would be more than sufficient payoff to what's been going on.

You've got to be kidding me. Whatever you think of Elan's arc in itself, he's been fairly consistently portrayed as the linchpin of Haley's development since before the Inn scene.
Are we both talking about the same inn? I was talking about the one where she developed her aphasia, not the one where she lost it. Elan has been key to Haley's development in either case, but said development certainly wasn't given to her by Elan, and it didn't really represent a loss of agency on her part. All the choices were hers to make, and they were focused on problems that weren't precisely attached to Elan. Elan's role in Haley's development is, in this area, as a person she is willing to open up to, thus allowing her to open up to people that aren't him to some extent (particularly Roy).

Kish
2017-06-17, 09:29 AM
I do agree that we are supposed to think of Awful Andi, but if that is the point isn't it a problem that there were enough of us sympathetic to her that we needed to be chased out with pitchforks - and on the other hand those more hostile to her than they are of Greg - a sign that something went wrong.
You underestimate perversity as a human motivation. Girard Draketooth appeared in one panel as part of a trap, ranted about the evils of paladins, was provably factually wrong about everything he said there, and blew up the heroes of the comic: instant fan club. You demonstrate it perfectly, as you distort Andi's self-serving tantrum into some kind of noble rebellion and the others' failure to immediately intervene and stop her into active support; the fact that Bandana knew what she was doing and Andi was functioning on the level of "I should be giving the orders because I'm me!" somehow, in your view, reflects badly on Bandana, and Rich, not Andi and the readers of the Andi Fan Club. There is a sign of something wrong, but not in Rich's writing.

Emperor Demonking
2017-06-17, 09:36 AM
You underestimate perversity as a human motivation. Girard Draketooth appeared in one panel as part of a trap, ranted about the evils of paladins, was provably factually wrong about everything he said there, and blew up the heroes of the comic: instant fan club. You demonstrate it perfectly, as you distort Andi's self-serving tantrum into some kind of noble rebellion and the others' failure to immediately intervene and stop her into active support; the fact that Bandana knew what she was doing and Andi was functioning on the level of "I should be giving the orders because I'm me!" somehow, in your view, reflects badly on Bandana, and Rich, not Andi and the readers of the Andi Fan Club. There is a sign of something wrong, but not in Rich's writing.

I don't see how I was suggesting a 'noble rebellion'. Bandanna was giving orders because somebody had to and Bandanna - rendered unconscious after screaming sarcasm at the fearful engineer - was not doing so. Nor do I think that I making up the two chastened non-Andi crewmembers in the most recent strip.

ericgrau
2017-06-17, 09:43 AM
Eh FWIW I still like it a lot. If you don't that's cool too.

When you go right to the comic site to complain about it you're going to stir up a bit of passion, have fun.

Unlike a movie it's hard to gauge how a webcomic is doing. It's hard to tell objectively if you're right or wrong about the quality (sure it's subjective, but the sum of opinions is an objective number). Especially since fans tend to be in the comic's forums. So any poll would be biased. But I mean it's free so I read the comic on a whim anyway, so it's no big deal to me. Well, actually I may pick up some more of the books at some point after reading it online but it's not like I need user reviews to decide that. It all depends whether or not I liked what I already read, have the free time, etc. so it's pretty easy to think about.

Kish
2017-06-17, 09:45 AM
That's nice. If you ever feel like engaging, you know where to find me; for now, let me just take all the spin out of your latest post, so it's clear how you're suggesting a noble rebellion.



[Andi] was briefly giving orders, when repeatedly nagged to do so rather than gloat over her assault victim, because the rest of the crew repeatedly nagged her to do so, or at least confirm she wouldn't assault them for going a way she didn't like, and Bandana--knocked unconscious by a vicious assault from Andi after snapping at Andi to stop standing on deck objecting to all her decisions and try to do her job--was not doing so. Then she was giving orders because, while Bandana was conscious, she didn't want to untie her and preferred to gloat over her. Also, Bandana is clearly, and reasonably, displeased that she needed to prod anyone to untie her, though Andi remains the one who assaulted her and the only one who actively opposed her captaincy, and it would be dishonest to imply the others bear as much guilt as Andi.

Grey_Wolf_c
2017-06-17, 09:48 AM
there were enough of us sympathetic to her that we needed to be chased out with pitchforks

Interesting claim. From what I remember, Andi defenders were "chased away" by their own predictions of how Andi would be proven right "in the next few comics" that, as comic passed and she kept bungling a job she was in no way fit for as "Bandana defenders" correctly predicted from the very start, turned into childish "she should've been proven right, because I like Andi better than Bandana".

I will not bundle you with, but cannot fail to remind you of, the separate Andi defenders whose entire argument was "Bandana is a lesbian, therefore she must be shown to be in the wrong about everything". Those were indeed chased out with pitchforks, for obvious reasons.

To be clear, I do not recall were you stepped into the discussion or what your individual arguments were, but if you chose to declare yourself a member of either of those two groups, you should not mischaracterise the position of those who were correct about Andi.

Grey Wolf

Lacuna Caster
2017-06-17, 09:50 AM
So, literally your entire argument is, "I don't like Nale." Which is fine, I guess, but it doesn't really have anything to do with what we're talking about. Whatever you think of his character, he's obviously provided a ton of awesome payoffs, and the payoff is what you were contesting in the first place.
I don't think he has provided awesome payoffs, because I have mixed feelings about some of the payoffs themselves, and in cases where I do like the payoff I question that his specific character makeup was necessary to get there. If the only standard of evidence that is going to satisfy you is that I go off and write an alternate-version-1000-strip-OOTS sans Nale, and you judge it to be at least as awesome, then... that's not about to happen, but it's also not a reasonable bar to clear. (I could be a weaker writer and fail, or be a stronger writer and succeed, but aside from how I'm not going to do that it might only reflect on the strength of my writing and not the smartness of including Nale.)


Are we both talking about the same inn? I was talking about the one where she developed her aphasia, not the one where she lost it. Elan has been key to Haley's development in either case, but said development certainly wasn't given to her by Elan...
Of course it was. You just said it was key to her development. After the party splits, she's evidently paralysed with indecision because she worries about Elan being dead and does nothing terribly proactive until Celia prods her into leaving AC. Then she conspicuously fails to leave the party in order to ransom or rescue her dad, which was ostensibly the entire reason for her penny-pinching habits. (Well, she expends one potion of glibness that belonged to someone else, but yeah, that's the depth of her involvement.)

Emperor Demonking
2017-06-17, 09:55 AM
That's nice. If you ever feel like engaging, you know where to find me; for now, let me just take all the spin out of your latest post, so it's clear how you're suggesting a noble rebellion.

Your taking the spin 'out' seems to be a lot longer than my post. Are you sure you're not simply putting a lot of spin in? For example, I'm pretty sure I didn't suggest that the crew members nagged or even asked Andi to give orders, just that orders needed to be given.

Kish
2017-06-17, 09:58 AM
Yes, exactly. You omitted the fact that your heroine needed to be repeatedly nagged to give orders rather than either protesting that there was no clear answer and expecting Felix to make the problem go away, or standing over (the now-conscious, though your original version seemed to indicate she was unconscious throughout Andi's mutiny) Bandana and gloating: spin. If you consider any part of what I said inaccurate, rather than vaguely objecting to it being longer than your spun version, it would behoove you to say what you're contesting.

SaintRidley
2017-06-17, 09:59 AM
You underestimate perversity as a human motivation. Girard Draketooth appeared in one panel as part of a trap, ranted about the evils of paladins, was provably factually wrong about everything he said there, and blew up the heroes of the comic: instant fan club. You demonstrate it perfectly, as you distort Andi's self-serving tantrum into some kind of noble rebellion and the others' failure to immediately intervene and stop her into active support; the fact that Bandana knew what she was doing and Andi was functioning on the level of "I should be giving the orders because I'm me!" somehow, in your view, reflects badly on Bandana, and Rich, not Andi and the readers of the Andi Fan Club. There is a sign of something wrong, but not in Rich's writing.

I would like to take a moment to reflect that, now that we've seen the O-Chul story, Girard's grievance makes a lot more sense. During his lifetime, he wasn't exactly wrong about the Sapphire Guard. During the time starting with DCF which we were familiar with is a different matter.

Keltest
2017-06-17, 10:01 AM
I'm with Lacuna on the importance of Nale to the story. Until the very end, he served mostly as a vessel to physically move the characters from one place to another, and his relationship with the characters was largely unexplored and unchanging. The fact that he was Elan's brother went almost entirely forgotten save for the fact that it allowed for another avenue for Nale to move the party. You could replace him in the story with any number of other generic threats that forced a reaction and you would end up with the characters in much the same place until BRITF.

I don't agree about Haley though. Her relationship with Elan is important because it shines a spotlight on her own character growth, not because she's a shallow damsel in distress for Elan to save. She is moving away from the self-destructive mistrust that her father instilled in her, and her relationship with Elan is a symptom of that in the same way that her loyalty to the Order and its goals is.

Kish
2017-06-17, 10:02 AM
Given that Girard showed up in one panel, slaughtering goblins without hesitation while he laughed about Kraagor's bar tab, I take leave to doubt the objections he had to the Sapphire Guard actually related to the Guard's real problems.

Grey_Wolf_c
2017-06-17, 10:07 AM
Given that Girard showed up in one panel, slaughtering goblins without hesitation while he laughed about Kraagor's bar tab, I take leave to doubt the objections he had to the Sapphire Guard actually related to the Guard's real problems.

Where was that? (Not doubting it happened, to be clear, just can't remember it at all)

GW

Keltest
2017-06-17, 10:09 AM
Where was that? (Not doubting it happened, to be clear, just can't remember it at all)

GW

During redcloak's flashback about the origin of the Crimson Mantle. He mentions a group of adventurers beat up one of the former bearers, and it was the scribblers.

eggynack
2017-06-17, 10:10 AM
The second-from-last panel in the most recent strip has Bandanna forgiving the mutineers. Noticably, it is not Andi alone looking downcasted and chastened but two others. Obviously, Andi is uniquely worse, but the most recent string does not seem to be agreeing with you that she is uniquely bad. But that if Andi is rotten then so are those other two (which destroys the parralell).
Some of the crew seem sorry for doing something way way way less bad than what Andi did. Andi, by contrast, doesn't seem like she feels bad at all for the way way way worse thing she did, only acting put down specifically when she was pushed into giving in. Feeling sorry for your actions does not make you bad. It has the inverse effect, because it means that you are identifying your own actions as wrong and are willing to change. Recall, Ian apologized. Tarquin never did, not really. Your metric would have Ian as the worse character.



If andi is rdeemed (or if she isn't) what is it that you think we will learn about Durkula. I've sincerely thought about it a little and can't think of anything. So I'm curious what it is. If they make it there on time, it is because Andi didn't say seeya when Julio passed so, 'accepting durkula was a good idea, just dodgy luck that it nearly ended the world?'
Depends on how it plays out. A lot of the development might land directly in the hands of the Order, in their reaction to it. Maybe it'll be super straightforward. "Not everyone is like this. Some people are deserving of your trust." Maybe it'll be, "You don't have to be an evil vampire subservient to a Goddess of death and despair to be a kinda crappy person." We don't have to learn a precise lesson here. We learn about how Durkula is precisely when we see all of the ways that Andi acted here, and then the way Durkula acts later, and have the ability to contrast them. If you can't identify a clear and useful distinction in the way they've acted, it's primarily because you haven't likely seen the full arc of either character. In the same way, we couldn't see the Ian/Tarquin connection as well in the moment as we can now.



Her biggest ship-based plan was deciding to prioritise venting her frustration of a scared underling over giving instructions on which of the numerous things she lead to breaking to fix first. Any failed plans of Andi follow from that descision of Bandanna.
Andi's job, unless stated otherwise, is to fix things that are broken. She knows best which things are broken, and which things are most necessary for the airship to run. That's why she's the engineer and Bandanna isn't, just like Bandanna is the leader and Andi isn't. You may notice that she was questioning leadership decisions on limited basis instead of fixing literally any of those things. She also obviously didn't ask what she should fix first.


The crew obviously needed leadership while Bandanna was busy being unconscious. And even when complaining about the mutiny, Carol didn't disagree with Andi's statement that leaving her untied would have her flop around get hurt.
And then Bandanna woke up, and Andi didn't untie her. At that exact moment, the flopping around thing became effectively a lie.


The hitting with the wrench did represent mutiny - they could not go with being unlead at such a time - but even those strongly opposed to a mutiny could disagree with the thrust of her making descisions once the mutiny had been made.
Their following her wasn't really a problem. They're in the middle of a crisis. It's not the time to be attacking people, or overthrowing order, even problematic order. You may take note now exactly what Andi did in this crisis situation.



The reason why Bandanna is making different - and successful - descisions from Andi is that Rich gave her secret and necessary information to save the day. You can't deduce that her descision-making methods are unhinged just because the descisions she made were worse since she didn't have that secret knowledge.
The decision that Andi overturned, right at the start of her mutiny, was based on knowledge that was explicitly given to her: "We'd have to eyeball our path the whole way, and there's no promise we could get through it all. We might end up in a dead end, hemmed in by mountains we can't fly over." Bandanna's eventual solution, which would have been unnecessary if Andi had just continued following Bandanna's plan, did rely on knowledge Andi didn't have. But Bandanna had that knowledge because she actually knows more about the topic of overall ship leadership, the very thing that Andi was baselessly questioning.

Imagine the inverse situation. Andi is making her repairs in a certain way. Bandanna goes over to her and says, "Nah, I know more than you about repairing engines. You should repair it like this." Then Bandanna clobbers Andi and takes over engineering. Would you really expect Bandanna to know everything necessary to do the engine repair? Would it be unfair if Andi has engine knowledge Bandanna doesn't have, because she's trained a ton regarding that exact issue? Of course not. It would be ridiculous for Bandanna to take over as engineer solely on the belief that Andi is doing her fixing stuff job in a way that Bandanna naively assumes is wrong, and we would never expect Bandanna to have all the knowledge regarding the ship's mechanical upkeep. In the same sense, Bandanna knows things about stuff the ship can do, and that's why she's captain. That's why you don't bonk her on the head, because maybe she actually happens to be good at her job.

And let's not forget some really basic things Andi never did, as captain. Ask, and listen. When people with expertise in what they were saying gave Andi information, she never listened to what they said. When she was trying to get over the mountains, she never asked, "Hey, is there anything we can do to ditch weight? Any ideas anyone has would be greatly appreciated." Keep in mind, this information wasn't only Bandanna accessible. People on her crew knew about the gun release capability. But Andi never asked, and Andi never listened, which are two things that made her an awful captain.



By working on the engine I was referring to when she was wearing both the captain's and engineer's hat. It was going to work on the engine that allowed Bandanna her monologue - a fact Bandanna herself states.
It's still not good. Again, working on the engines is only good to the extent it helps the crew, and to the same extent it helps the crew it also helps herself. It's "good" in the sense that it's the right thing to do. It's not good in the sense that it indicates she's a good person.


I do agree that we are supposed to think of Awful Andi, but if that is the point isn't it a problem that there were enough of us sympathetic to her that we needed to be chased out with pitchforks - and on the other hand those more hostile to her than they are of Durkula - a sign that something went wrong.
There are always people that support every character. It's not a writing problem. It's a fact of life. And people aren't hostile to Andi because she's bad or evil, exactly. They're hostile to her because she's being a frigging idiot, and folks tend to find that kinda thing frustrating.


And as I said before it isn't just Andi who lacks loyalty to Bandanna comparable to the order to Roy its the whole crew. So I'm unsure what sort of thing you think could happen that will makes this all thematically satisfying.
I've listed a ton of possibilities. An important question in the aftermath is whether Bandanna should get rid of Andi in some fashion. It's a question similar to the one Roy faced. That alone gives thematic connection.

Edit:
I don't think he has provided awesome payoffs, because I have mixed feelings about some of the payoffs themselves, and in cases where I do like the payoff I question that his specific character makeup was necessary to get there. If the only standard of evidence that is going to satisfy you is that I go off and write an alternate-version-1000-strip-OOTS sans Nale, and you judge it to be at least as awesome, then... that's not about to happen, but it's also not a reasonable bar to clear. (I could be a weaker writer and fail, or be a stronger writer and succeed, but aside from how I'm not going to do that it might only reflect on the strength of my writing and not the smartness of including Nale.)
Whatever standard of evidence I'd theoretically require, your current main evidence is simply not liking Nale, rather than anything all that high in order. Either way, I think we can agree that there were at least a bunch of payoffs, however you'd judge them. The core issue claimed with this sequence, broadly speaking, seems to be that it is in some fashion irrelevant. Whatever you think of Nale, he is not irrelevant.


Of course it was. You just said it was key to her development. After the party splits, she's evidently paralysed with indecision because she worries about Elan being dead and does nothing terribly proactive until Celia prods her into leaving AC. Then she conspicuously fails to leave the party in order to ransom or rescue her dad, which was ostensibly the entire reason for her penny-pinching habits. (Well, she expends one potion of glibness that belonged to someone else, but yeah, that's the depth of her involvement.)
She was paralyzed because she felt responsible for the Azure City resistance, and because she didn't know about the divination block. Her Elan worries are pretty strictly secondary. And Elan being key to her development doesn't mean said development wasn't largely internal or driven by her agency.

Emperor Demonking
2017-06-17, 10:14 AM
Yes, exactly. You omitted the fact that your heroine needed to be repeatedly nagged to give orders: spin. If you consider any part of what I said inaccurate, rather than vaguely objecting to it being longer, it would behoove you to say what you're contesting.

She wasn't nagged. She gave orders before being asked. The order she was eventually asked about did take some time to make a descision, but that's not relevant to anything. Nobody is saying she's a super-great captain, the question is whether she is better than no captain.

It was not a "vicious assault". Her snapping could not have been based on Bandanna not doing her job as Bandanna only decided to tell her what job to do after screaming in her face. There is nothing in the comic that says that the displeasure comes from having to 'prod' to be untied. 'Prod' in not an accurate word for how she got herself untied. Nor did Andi gloat over Bandanna. (Although, again I acknowledge, a good captain would not have allowed Bandanna to lure her into a conversation).

Kish
2017-06-17, 10:19 AM
Where was that? (Not doubting it happened, to be clear, just can't remember it at all)

GW
Start of Darkness, page 43. I see I misremembered a little, actually; he's smiling but his mouth is closed (Dorukan is frowning and Soon isn't in the panel at all).

Nevertheless, I will be quite surprised if it turns out that Girard, or any member of the Order of the Scribble, thought much about "goblins=kill" during their time traveling together, or later came to think "I don't trust Soon because he treats goblin life too lightly."

Lacuna Caster
2017-06-17, 10:19 AM
Whatever standard of evidence I'd theoretically require, your current main evidence is simply not liking Nale, rather than anything all that high in order. Either way, I think we can agree that there were at least a bunch of payoffs, however you'd judge them. The core issue claimed with this sequence, broadly speaking, seems to be that it is in some fashion irrelevant. Whatever you think of Nale, he is not irrelevant.
Yes, but the claim here is that the airship sequence and Bandi/Andana are going to totes pay off big time in some fashion down the road. I have no opinion on the airship sequence either way, but it is at least possible that it won't.


She was paralyzed because she felt responsible for the Azure City resistance, and because she didn't know about the divination block. Her Elan worries are pretty strictly secondary. And Elan being key to her development doesn't mean said development wasn't largely internal or driven by her agency.

I'm with Lacuna on the importance of Nale to the story. Until the very end, he served mostly as a vessel to physically move the characters from one place to another, and his relationship with the characters was largely unexplored and unchanging. The fact that he was Elan's brother went almost entirely forgotten save for the fact that it allowed for another avenue for Nale to move the party. You could replace him in the story with any number of other generic threats that forced a reaction and you would end up with the characters in much the same place until BRITF.

I don't agree about Haley though. Her relationship with Elan is important because it shines a spotlight on her own character growth, not because she's a shallow damsel in distress for Elan to save. She is moving away from the self-destructive mistrust that her father instilled in her, and her relationship with Elan is a symptom of that in the same way that her loyalty to the Order and its goals is.
I wouldn't say that Haley is shallow, exactly, just that a lot of her ostensible character traits are much more told than shown. Would anyone describe Haley as especially self-reliant, for example, if a floaty disembodied voice hadn't said she was? Because I certainly can't recall her striking out and doing things solo outside of Origins.


EDIT: ...Anyway. Whatever about the rest of Haley's arc, my point is that having Elan swoop in to rescue her from Nale is pretty nakedly damsel-in-distress territory. That doesn't automatically make it bad and awful, but I see no reason to celebrate it either.

SaintRidley
2017-06-17, 10:20 AM
Given that Girard showed up in one panel, slaughtering goblins without hesitation while he laughed about Kraagor's bar tab, I take leave to doubt the objections he had to the Sapphire Guard actually related to the Guard's real problems.

Sure, but I think Girard's hypocrisy is not entirely the point.

Grey_Wolf_c
2017-06-17, 10:27 AM
She wasn't nagged.
She had to be told 6 times to clarify an incomplete order, by increasingly shrill reminders. That is nagging. And it does not reflect well on her, whether you characterise it as a full order or a clarification.


She gave orders before being asked.
This is clearly false. Helmsman had to ask for directions before she even bothered to look forward to see that her previous order was taking them towards a mountain.


The order she was eventually asked about did take some time to make a descision, but that's not relevant to anything.
False. It is central.


Nobody is saying she's a super-great captain, the question is whether she is better than no captain.
Which she obviously is not. Without a captain, the helmsman would've continued on the known path towards the exist. Her interference made everything significantly worse.


It was not a "vicious assault".
Punching someone in the nose is not a vicious assault. Hitting someone in the back of the head with a heavy wrench is vicious.


Her snapping could not have been based on Bandanna not doing her job as Bandanna only decided to tell her what job to do after screaming in her face.
The head engineer of a ship should not need to be told to fix things during battle. Nor is it the engineer's place to spend her time in said battle bothering the captain.

Grey Wolf

Keltest
2017-06-17, 10:28 AM
I wouldn't say that Haley is shallow, exactly, just that a lot of her ostensible character traits are much more told than shown. Would anyone describe Haley as especially self-reliant, for example, if a floaty disembodied voice hadn't said she was? Because I certainly can't recall her striking out and doing things solo outside of Origins.

...Anyway. Whatever about the rest of Haley's arc, my point is that having Elan swoop in to rescue her from Nale is pretty nakedly damsel-in-distress territory. That doesn't automatically make it bad and awful, but I see no reason to celebrate it either.

She organized a resistance to Azure City's occupation and made strides to get Roy resurrected. She attempted to break her father out of jail as soon as she learned where he was. Even as far back as DCF, when she got separated she started slaughtering her own way to Xykon's throne room. She is a poor leader for the Order, but that doesn't mean that she can't operate on her own.

And since Haley's distress was mostly caused by her own character flaws rather than any actual threat from Nale, I don't think describing her as a Damsel in Distress is especially accurate either, though Elan certainly envisioned it that way.

Lacuna Caster
2017-06-17, 10:36 AM
She organized a resistance to Azure City's occupation and made strides to get Roy resurrected. She attempted to break her father out of jail as soon as she learned where he was. Even as far back as DCF, when she got separated she started slaughtering her own way to Xykon's throne room. She is a poor leader for the Order, but that doesn't mean that she can't operate on her own.
Where did that happen in DCF?

My sense is that the AC resistance got organised largely by accident after Thanh and scruffy walked in at the right time, almost despite her involvement, and I tend to give Celia primary credit for Roy's return ticket.


And since Haley's distress was mostly caused by her own character flaws rather than any actual threat from Nale, I don't think describing her as a Damsel in Distress is especially accurate either, though Elan certainly envisioned it that way.
My memory is fuzzy, but wasn't Sabine about to kill her around that time?

Emperor Demonking
2017-06-17, 10:39 AM
Some of the crew seem sorry for doing something way way way less bad than what Andi did. Andi, by contrast, doesn't seem like she feels bad at all for the way way way worse thing she did, only acting put down specifically when she was pushed into giving in. Feeling sorry for your actions does not make you bad. It has the inverse effect, because it means that you are identifying your own actions as wrong and are willing to change. Recall, Ian apologized. Tarquin never did, not really. Your metric would have Ian as the worse character.


Depends on how it plays out. A lot of the development might land directly in the hands of the Order, in their reaction to it. Maybe it'll be super straightforward. "Not everyone is like this. Some people are deserving of your trust." Maybe it'll be, "You don't have to be an evil vampire subservient to a Goddess of death and despair to be a kinda crappy person." We don't have to learn a precise lesson here. We learn about how Durkula is precisely when we see all of the ways that Andi acted here, and then the way Durkula acts later, and have the ability to contrast them. If you can't identify a clear and useful distinction in the way they've acted, it's primarily because you haven't likely seen the full arc of either character. In the same way, we couldn't see the Ian/Tarquin connection as well in the moment as we can now.


Andi's job, unless stated otherwise, is to fix things that are broken. She knows best which things are broken, and which things are most necessary for the airship to run. That's why she's the engineer and Bandanna isn't, just like Bandanna is the leader and Andi isn't. You may notice that she was questioning leadership decisions on limited basis instead of fixing literally any of those things. She also obviously didn't ask what she should fix first.

And then Bandanna woke up, and Andi didn't untie her. At that exact moment, the flopping around thing became effectively a lie.

Their following her wasn't really a problem. They're in the middle of a crisis. It's not the time to be attacking people, or overthrowing order, even problematic order. You may take note now exactly what Andi did in this crisis situation.


The decision that Andi overturned, right at the start of her mutiny, was based on knowledge that was explicitly given to her: "We'd have to eyeball our path the whole way, and there's no promise we could get through it all. We might end up in a dead end, hemmed in by mountains we can't fly over." Bandanna's eventual solution, which would have been unnecessary if Andi had just continued following Bandanna's plan, did rely on knowledge Andi didn't have. But Bandanna had that knowledge because she actually knows more about the topic of overall ship leadership, the very thing that Andi was baselessly questioning.

Imagine the inverse situation. Andi is making her repairs in a certain way. Bandanna goes over to her and says, "Nah, I know more than you about repairing engines. You should repair it like this." Then Bandanna clobbers Andi and takes over engineering. Would you really expect Bandanna to know everything necessary to do the engine repair? Would it be unfair if Andi has engine knowledge Bandanna doesn't have, because she's trained a ton regarding that exact issue? Of course not. It would be ridiculous for Bandanna to take over as engineer solely on the belief that Andi is doing her fixing stuff job in a way that Bandanna naively assumes is wrong, and we would never expect Bandanna to have all the knowledge regarding the ship's mechanical upkeep. In the same sense, Bandanna knows things about stuff the ship can do, and that's why she's captain. That's why you don't bonk her on the head, because maybe she actually happens to be good at her job.

And let's not forget some really basic things Andi never did, as captain. Ask, and listen. When people with expertise in what they were saying gave Andi information, she never listened to what they said. When she was trying to get over the mountains, she never asked, "Hey, is there anything we can do to ditch weight? Any ideas anyone has would be greatly appreciated." Keep in mind, this information wasn't only Bandanna accessible. People on her crew knew about the gun release capability. But Andi never asked, and Andi never listened, which are two things that made her an awful captain.


It's still not good. Again, working on the engines is only good to the extent it helps the crew, and to the same extent it helps the crew it also helps herself. It's "good" in the sense that it's the right thing to do. It's not good in the sense that it indicates she's a good person.


There are always people that support every character. It's not a writing problem. It's a fact of life. And people aren't hostile to Andi because she's bad or evil, exactly. They're hostile to her because she's being a frigging idiot, and folks tend to find that kinda thing frustrating.


I've listed a ton of possibilities. An important question in the aftermath is whether Bandanna should get rid of Andi in some fashion. It's a question similar to the one Roy faced. That alone gives thematic connection.

Edit:
Whatever standard of evidence I'd theoretically require, your current main evidence is simply not liking Nale, rather than anything all that high in order. Either way, I think we can agree that there were at least a bunch of payoffs, however you'd judge them. The core issue claimed with this sequence, broadly speaking, seems to be that it is in some fashion irrelevant. Whatever you think of Nale, he is not irrelevant.


She was paralyzed because she felt responsible for the Azure City resistance, and because she didn't know about the divination block. Her Elan worries are pretty strictly secondary. And Elan being key to her development doesn't mean said development wasn't largely internal or driven by her agency.



Andi seems just as contrite as the rest in the most recent comic. Am i reading her expression wrong?

Andi doesn't know Bandanna's secret plans and obviously doesn't know what part of the airship needs to be prioritised. I don't think she should be expected to need to say the magic words "what should I fix first?". They were not in a normal situation where she ought to be expected to simply guess herself - just as the steerer didn't when Andi was captain, however despite having more pressure being both captain and engineer Andi still chose not to scream in her face. Uncoincidentally, Andi remained conscious.

Although, Andi did not untie Bandanna when she awoke you're ignoring that 1) the accidental mutiny already happened 2) Bandanna did not know the current situation immediately on waking 3) Nobody else descided to untie her when Andi went away to fix the engines 4) Andi had other things to do of arguably greater importance

If andi had baited Bandanna into knocking her unconscious and then Bandanna ignored their lack of engineer. I would consider that a bad thing. I think on the basic become-captain fron Andi made the best of a bad situation (of Bandanna's creation, but that's a distraction around Bandanna's reaction)

I think the "People on her crew knew about the gun release capability" capacity is misleading. One person knew. And that was after being explicitly prompted by name.

Fixing the engine does not help her as much as it helps the crew since she struck the captain with a wrench.

Keltest
2017-06-17, 10:41 AM
Where did that happen in DCF?

My sense is that the AC resistance got organised largely by accident after Thanh and scruffy walked in at the right time, almost despite her involvement, and I tend to give Celia primary credit for Roy's return ticket.


My memory is fuzzy, but wasn't Sabine about to kill her around that time?

Starting Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0100.html).

Anyway, Thanh and Scruffy united the three factions, but Haley was the leader of one of the three, and the most open to cooperating with the others. Celia was, if anything, actively hampering efforts to resurrect Roy (I don't like her much, in case you were wondering), and Sabine was about to confront Nale, which would have blown his cover and allowed Haley to react.

Peelee
2017-06-17, 10:43 AM
Hang on a second. You don't know the first thing about what the OP has or hasn't created. That's uncalled for.
I wholeheartedly agree.

Secondly, I would say that anyone, for any reason, is perfectly entitled to criticise a work, regardless of whether it's free or paid for, regardless of whether they like or loathe any or all parts of it. The only criterion that should apply is the cogency of the argument, and whether it's redundant or not.
And again, I agree. Taste is subjective, and people should always be allowed to criticize works for what they perceive as flaws, even if their criticisms seem utterly nonsensical to others.

Eh, Nale's introduction arguably had a payoff in the sense that he finally got 2 pages of dramatic development 800 strips later, but that's a pretty lousy return on investment.
Case in point.

eggynack
2017-06-17, 10:43 AM
Yes, but the claim here is that the airship sequence and Bandi/Andana are going to totes pay off big time in some fashion down the road. I have no opinion either way on the airship sequence either way, but it is at least possible that it won't.

Sure, the story could crumble into a pile of crap. Always a possibility. My point is that not only is that unlikely from a broader perspective, the standard inductive line of reasoning that dictates that things have pretty consistently paid off in the past so they're liable to continue paying off in the future (even if you may like or dislike various payoffs) it's especially unlikely in this specific context, because we can already identify some clear cut ways that it can pay off. For it to not pay off at all would almost require that they just kinda not address Andi's betrayal at all, because addressing said betrayal is itself a thematic connection.

The criticism of this arc is predicated on an unlikely future, and that makes no sense. I'm not saying, "This arc is amazing because it will definitely go in this way I'm describing, and that narrative path sounds cool to me." I'm saying that we can already see some evidence that it will go down an interesting path, and the claim that it's bad on this stated basis wouldn't even make sense in a vacuum.


...Anyway. Whatever about the rest of Haley's arc, my point is that having Elan swoop in to rescue her from Nale is pretty nakedly damsel-in-distress territory. That doesn't automatically make it bad and awful, but I see no reason to celebrate it either.
That precise moment was Elan's triumph though. If we celebrate it, it's because it was the payoff to a lot of great Elan character stuff, noting that it has basically nothing to do with any agency on Haley's part. Which is fine. Not everything has to be dependent on the decision making and capability of everyone, and sometimes an arc can favor one character over another. But, at the same time, the part immediately following that, where Haley broke out of her aphasia, thus ending the suggestion spell and turning the tide of battle, was the payoff to a lot of great Haley character stuff, and had nothing to do with any agency on Elan's part. In a very real sense, Elan was the damsel in distress in that exact moment, saved by the force of Haley's truth telling from attacking a team member and granting possible victory to the enemy. That scene is the culmination of two arcs in one. It feels like you're focusing unduly on the part of the scene that's empowering Elan, and ignoring the part that's empowering Haley.

Keltest
2017-06-17, 10:47 AM
Whatever standard of evidence I'd theoretically require, your current main evidence is simply not liking Nale, rather than anything all that high in order. Either way, I think we can agree that there were at least a bunch of payoffs, however you'd judge them. The core issue claimed with this sequence, broadly speaking, seems to be that it is in some fashion irrelevant. Whatever you think of Nale, he is not irrelevant.

To address this for a moment, you cant prove a negative like "Nale hasn't been good for the story", so if you want complete proof one way or another, it pretty much has to come from you.

Besides that though, id like you to point out a few scenes before Blood Runs in the Family where you think Nale personally is integral to the way the scene played out, and where replacing him with some other, similar threat would result in the characters developing differently. The only one I can think of is the "Damsel in Distress" moment currently under the knife. That's... not a lot, considering how often he has appeared.

Emperor Demonking
2017-06-17, 10:53 AM
She had to be told 6 times to clarify an incomplete order, by increasingly shrill reminders. That is nagging. And it does not reflect well on her, whether you characterise it as a full order or a clarification.

I count two ("Which way...this mountain" in 64 and "ANDI!!!" in 65). Are you counting every single balloon?





This is clearly false. Helmsman had to ask for directions before she even bothered to look forward to see that her previous order was taking them towards a mountain.

Gave an order in 63. 'Nagged' in 64. Whatever way you slice it, an order came first.



False. It is central.

How?




Which she obviously is not. Without a captain, the helmsman would've continued on the known path towards the exist. Her interference made everything significantly worse.


Then why did they listen to her at all? If no captain is better than Andi-captain then why listen to her?


Punching someone in the nose is not a vicious assault. Hitting someone in the back of the head with a heavy wrench is vicious.
Not when you immediately turn your head after an unreasonable provocation of someone carrying a heavy wrench in their dominant hand.




The head engineer of a ship should not need to be told to fix things during battle. Nor is it the engineer's place to spend her time in said battle bothering the captain.

Grey Wolf

Fiddling while Rome is burning is not a good use of the engineer's time. It was perfectly reasonable to expect explicit instructions on what to prioritise. Just as the helmsman desired explicit instructions also.

She may not have a right to know what the plan is, but surely she has a right to know her part in it. I have a hard time thinking that if Andi had gone down and fixed the gas when they needed the fins, that Andi-haters would be at all forgiving.

Lacuna Caster
2017-06-17, 10:55 AM
Starting Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0100.html).
Hmm. Maybe. She's not really striking off solo, since she got captured by an external party, but I guess she at least gets herself out of the jam.

Anyway, Thanh and Scruffy united the three factions, but Haley was the leader of one of the three, and the most open to cooperating with the others. Celia was, if anything, actively hampering efforts to resurrect Roy (I don't like her much, in case you were wondering), and Sabine was about to confront Nale, which would have blown his cover and allowed Haley to react.
One can argue about sub-optimal decision-making on Celia's part, but in her absence Haley would've stuck around AC for Gods know how much longer. I don't think one can reasonably dispute that.

Can someone link me to the actual Elan/Haley rescue scene?

hamishspence
2017-06-17, 10:59 AM
Not when you immediately turn your head after an unreasonable provocation of someone carrying a heavy wrench in their dominant hand.

Other way round - Andi was the one engaged in unreasonable provocation - not doing her job + insults like "brat" and "Little Miss Junior Captain"

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1062.html

Bandanna responded not with violence but a sharply worded reminder that she was wasting time - which contained no insults.


I count two ("Which way...this mountain" in 64 and "ANDI!!!" in 65). Are you counting every single balloon?



http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1063.html
"Anyone have any strong feelings which way?"

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1064.html
"Port or starboard?"
"I kinda need a decision here"

then "Andi!"

and "Which way?"

and then some more requests for Andi's decision in 1065.

Emperor Demonking
2017-06-17, 11:07 AM
Other way round - Andi was the one engaged in unreasonable provocation - not doing her job + insults like "brat" and "Little Miss Junior Captain"

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1062.html

Bandanna responded not with violence but a sharply worded reminder that she was wasting time - which contained no insults.

Bandanna was also not doing her job by repeatedly interacting with Andi but resolutely not telling her what to do.

Focusing on 'insults' is also rather comical. he didn't even insult her. All she did was scream in Andi's face that all their problems were down to her since if she wasn't moaning they'd be all fixed up.

Quick question, as this might point to a crucial difference of how we read the start of this saga, are the rest of you taking the "if you spent half.. two whole ships by the end of this pass" as an accurate statement of fact?

Edit: Plain didn't notice those small balloons in 64.

ORione
2017-06-17, 11:07 AM
Hmm. Maybe. She's not really striking off solo, since she got captured by an external party, but I guess she at least gets herself out of the jam.


So your definition of self-reliant requires that she leave the Order and pursue her personal goals alone? :smallconfused: By that criterion, Vaarsuvius is the only self-reliant member of OotS (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0599.html).

eggynack
2017-06-17, 11:09 AM
Andi seems just as contrite as the rest in the most recent comic. Am i reading her expression wrong?
I don't see her ever having downcast contrition face in that comic. It looks like she always has wide eyed shock face. Her, "Yes, captain," face in the strip before arguably shows contrition, but I dunno that it makes sense to read it that way.


Andi doesn't know Bandanna's secret plans and obviously doesn't know what part of the airship needs to be prioritised. I don't think she should be expected to need to say the magic words "what should I fix first?". They were not in a normal situation where she ought to be expected to simply guess herself
Andi knows way more about what needs to be fixed. Unless Bandanna has really specific need for the functioning of a particular thing, and her "secret plans" absolutely didn't, she should just be fixing things. Same reason the pilot doesn't need to be told, "Don't stop piloting the ship, and avoid crashing into mountains." Fixing stuff that it seems like a good idea to fix should be Andi's neutral state. Berating Bandanna about how she should do her job differently, even after having it explained to her why it's being done the way it's being done, should be her basically never state.



- just as the steerer didn't when Andi was captain, however despite having more pressure being both captain and engineer Andi still chose not to scream in her face. Uncoincidentally, Andi remained conscious.
The pilot explicitly asked for direction. That's a normal thing to do. Andi failed to do her job and complained about the job Bandanna was doing. That's not a normal thing to do. You want to know what Andi looks like when someone comes even marginally close to questioning how she did her job? Read comic 965. And, hey, if you want to see how much not yelling Andi does when people actually question her, check out strip 1064.


Although, Andi did not untie Bandanna when she awoke you're ignoring that 1) the accidental mutiny already happened 2) Bandanna did not know the current situation immediately on waking 3) Nobody else descided to untie her when Andi went away to fix the engines 4) Andi had other things to do of arguably greater importance
She could always undo the mutiny. The rest of the crew were arguably mistaken in not undoing it, but that doesn't put them on nearly the same level. There's a ton of stuff Andi could do if she weren't absolutely taking the actions she was taking in order to enact the plan she had been talking about. For example, she could have just done exactly what Bandanna said she was planning to do.


If andi had baited Bandanna into knocking her unconscious and then Bandanna ignored their lack of engineer. I would consider that a bad thing. I think on the basic become-captain fron Andi made the best of a bad situation (of Bandanna's creation, but that's a distraction around Bandanna's reaction)
Baited. When Andi has spent strip after strip berating Bandanna over her basic decision making, even in the face of explicitly stated reasons, yelling at her for it is baiting. That's just an utter misreading of what went on.


I think the "People on her crew knew about the gun release capability" capacity is misleading. One person knew. And that was after being explicitly prompted by name.
We'll never know how close to mind it was for the crew, because Andi literally never asked a single time regarding anything even close. If Andi had asked even a single time, sure, vaguely secret knowledge that was only necessary because Andi failed to make use of freely available knowledge. But she didn't. Because she's a bad captain. Also, there were at least two people who knew about the capability, the person who recalled the existence of said capability and the person in charge of the guns.



Fixing the engine does not help her as much as it helps the crew since she struck the captain with a wrench.
I have no idea what this means. Fixing the engine helps the ship not go down. If the ship goes down, she probably dies, to the exact same extent that everyone else probably dies.

Lacuna Caster
2017-06-17, 11:14 AM
So your definition of self-reliant requires that she leave the Order and pursue her personal goals alone? :smallconfused: By that criterion, Vaarsuvius is the only self-reliant member of OotS (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0599.html).
...Yes, that's a fair definition. You can argue about the extent to which self-reliance is a good thing, but it does mean relying on self rather than others. (One could also cite some of Belkar's escapades, and a good deal of Celia and Miko's behaviour. Those characters are self-reliant.)

Cizak
2017-06-17, 11:19 AM
Not when you immediately turn your head after an unreasonable provocation of someone carrying a heavy wrench in their dominant hand.

That makes sense. The assault on the soft spot of a person's head with an iron tool wasn't that bad because the person was looking away in order to do her job properly, after having told the assaulter to do their job properly instead of uselessly standing around throwing out insults.

EDIT:

Bandanna was also not doing her job by repeatedly interacting with Andi but resolutely not telling her what to do.

"Now get off my back and see if you can get on of those control fins unstuck or something."

And again, interesting how the assault is less severe just because the assaulter believed the victim was underperforming at her day job.

eggynack
2017-06-17, 11:20 AM
To address this for a moment, you cant prove a negative like "Nale hasn't been good for the story", so if you want complete proof one way or another, it pretty much has to come from you.

Besides that though, id like you to point out a few scenes before Blood Runs in the Family where you think Nale personally is integral to the way the scene played out, and where replacing him with some other, similar threat would result in the characters developing differently. The only one I can think of is the "Damsel in Distress" moment currently under the knife. That's... not a lot, considering how often he has appeared.
One of the main elements of Nale's character is the fact that he tends to command really high levels of team loyalty, and how they're really well organized. The degree of plan complexity is also pretty important, especially for the way it ties into his pride. His particular presence was thus rather important for the whole Cliffport sequence and setup, going a long way to justify a single act, switching with Elan and having Elan in prison, preceded by a plan that covers large swaths of the city and like three or four different sub-plans. Everything about him was the linchpin to everything that went on there. And we must always keep in mind the way his tendency towards intense dramatics plays against Elan's tendency towards narrative structure. They're kinda the same in this way, with few other characters out there liable to design their team thematically.

That's really most of his presence before BRitF. He has a couple of obvious moments in DCF, but everything else is setup for that one big scheme, or in that newest book. So, he seems rather vital for much of his presence. A totally different character wouldn't likely compliment the nature of Elan and Roy alike as he does, or have their role in the team structure quite so connected.

hamishspence
2017-06-17, 11:28 AM
Bandanna was also not doing her job by repeatedly interacting with Andi but resolutely not telling her what to do.

Andi left her post in strip 1055:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1055.html

and again in 1057:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1057.html

she should have been repairing, not trying to give Bandanna instructions, or complaining about the Order. It took Bandanna a long time to tell her what to (go back to her post) - but she was kinda busy.

Kish
2017-06-17, 11:32 AM
And when she specifically told Andi what to do, the person now charging her with not telling Andi what to do prior to that claimed that as a justification for the following vicious assault (which made it somehow not a vicious assault). This looks like a textbook example of "not arguing in good faith" to me; it's downright ludicrous to suggest a problem with Rich's writing is demonstrated by his failure to convince someone this determined not to be convinced.

Emperor Demonking
2017-06-17, 11:33 AM
That makes sense. The assault on the soft spot of a person's head with an iron tool wasn't that bad because the person was looking away in order to do her job properly, after having told the assaulter to do their job properly instead of uselessly standing around throwing out insults.


That panel simply does not show someone being 'told' someone. It shows someone being screamed at. That's not ambigious.



"Now get off my back and see if you can get on of those control fins unstuck or something."


Is what Bandanna could have said before or instead of her disgusting jab about that if she spent half..etc. but she instead chose not to. Andi then reacted as most people would have done if in the situation Andi was in.




And again, interesting how the assault is less severe just because the assaulter believed the victim was underperforming at her day job.

If Andi not doing her day job is provocation then so is Bandanna not foing hers. I never said either was.

hamishspence
2017-06-17, 11:39 AM
Is what Bandanna could have said before or instead of her disgusting jab about that if she spent half..etc. but she instead chose not to. Andi then reacted as most people would have done if in the situation Andi was in.

What's "disgusting" about it? It's hyperbole - but it's a reasonable thing to say in the circumstances after multiple instances of Andi talking instead of working.

Bandanna is patient - but even a patient person can have their patience tested to the point of breaking.

eggynack
2017-06-17, 11:39 AM
If Andi not doing her day job is provocation then so is Bandanna not foing hers. I never said either was.
Bandanna was doing her job. She was coordinating the efforts of an entire crew full of people to get them through the pass as painlessly as possible. Her job isn't spending strip after strip babysitting Andi. And it's not just Andi not doing her job that's a problem. It's her not doing her job and berating Bandanna about the job she's doing.

Emperor Demonking
2017-06-17, 11:39 AM
Andi left her post in strip 1055:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1055.html

and again in 1057:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1057.html

Staying in her post while everything was goind down is not what you want your cheif engineer to do. You want her to tell you and to get your priorities. (I have a hard time beleiving that if the ship went down because Andi was repairing this, and she should have been preparing that, that the Andi-haters would be at all forgiving)




she should have been repairing, not trying to give Bandanna instructions, or complaining about the Order. It took Bandanna a long time to tell her what to (go back to her post) - but she was kinda busy.

If she wasn't too busy to argue at Andi, then she wasn't too busy to say "fix this".

Kish: If I was the only person not to be convinced I'd agree that you had a point, but I wasn't. She also didn't actually tell her to do unti after - or (if you count the first ballon, which Band presumably didn't as she went on to give actual orders) while - goading her into a blind rage.

The real question is why none of you are willing to answer whether you taking Bandana's attack on Andi as being an accurate statement of fact.

Keltest
2017-06-17, 11:40 AM
One of the main elements of Nale's character is the fact that he tends to command really high levels of team loyalty, and how they're really well organized. The degree of plan complexity is also pretty important, especially for the way it ties into his pride. His particular presence was thus rather important for the whole Cliffport sequence and setup, going a long way to justify a single act, switching with Elan and having Elan in prison, preceded by a plan that covers large swaths of the city and like three or four different sub-plans. Everything about him was the linchpin to everything that went on there. And we must always keep in mind the way his tendency towards intense dramatics plays against Elan's tendency towards narrative structure. They're kinda the same in this way, with few other characters out there liable to design their team thematically.

That's really most of his presence before BRitF. He has a couple of obvious moments in DCF, but everything else is setup for that one big scheme, or in that newest book. So, he seems rather vital for much of his presence. A totally different character wouldn't likely compliment the nature of Elan and Roy alike as he does, or have their role in the team structure quite so connected.

Those traits seem largely told rather than shown to me (except for the unnecessarily complicated planning). Thog and Sabine are personally loyal to him, but Z's motives are never expanded on, and most of the rest of the Linear Guild members outright abandon Nale once they no longer have a personal stake in the group's success.

Which is beside the point, because I'm not contesting that he isn't a complete character. I would venture that the length of the buildup for getting Nale in position by Haley is largely unnecessary, by virtue of Nale's plans being unnecessarily complicated, and that while it is consistent with his characterization, it is also very low on the story-to-number-of-strips ratio.

Cizak
2017-06-17, 11:41 AM
That panel simply does not show someone being 'told' someone. It shows someone being screamed at. That's not ambigious.

Being screamed at after electing to stand around insulting her superior instead of doing her designated job. But sure, you go ahead and just try to desperately squeeze out any justification for assault. It's pretty disgusting, though.


Is what Bandanna could have said before or instead of her disgusting jab about that if she spent half..etc. but she instead chose not to. Andi then reacted as most people would have done if in the situation Andi was in.

I choose to have a little more respect for "most people" than thinking they would respond to being verbally told off with "physical assault". The reason assault is a crime in the first place is because the majority of lawmakers believe it's not a justifiable action.


If Andi not doing her day job is provocation then so is Bandanna not foing hers. I never said either was.

And one person being provoked chose to tell someone to be productive instead of wasting time, and the other provoked person chose to commit physical assault. But sure, let's continue to keep pretending these responses were equally bad.

ORione
2017-06-17, 11:42 AM
Punching someone in the nose is not a vicious assault. Hitting someone in the back of the head with a heavy wrench is vicious.

Not when you immediately turn your head after an unreasonable provocation of someone carrying a heavy wrench in their dominant hand.




Andi then reacted as most people would have done if in the situation Andi was in.

Most people don't respond to being yelled at by knocking the yeller unconscious, and no reasonable people do.

Peelee
2017-06-17, 11:42 AM
If Andi not doing her day job is provocation then so is Bandanna not foing hers.

Hey, check it out. Bandana doing her job (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1051.html). And again (bonus: also Andi not doing hers) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1061.html).

Do you wish to contend that that Bandana must be issuing constant orders to be doing her job?

hamishspence
2017-06-17, 11:42 AM
The real question is why none of you are willing to answer whether you taking Bandana's attack on Andi as being an accurate statement of fact.

I'm happy to say that it's hyperbole - but it's a hyperbolic statement based in a real problem - that Andi is wasting time criticising instead of working.



It's not a case of "failure to tell her what to do" - since Andi has not come to ask for instructions in the first place. At no point does she, unlike Mateo the helmsman, ever ask for instructions (on what to fix first, in this case) - because she's there to complain and try to change Bandanna's decisions, not to ask for input on making her own.

Emperor Demonking
2017-06-17, 11:44 AM
hamishspence : Andi made a handful of comments after watching three people die based on Bandanna's descision to help the Order. Exploding after that can't be called patience. But she didn't have to be patient. She had to say "Andi, use your best judgment and fix something" but she chose not to. She clearly had time to do so. But she chose not to.


Bandanna was doing her job. She was coordinating the efforts of an entire crew full of people to get them through the pass as painlessly as possible. Her job isn't spending strip after strip babysitting Andi. And it's not just Andi not doing her job that's a problem. It's her not doing her job and berating Bandanna about the job she's doing.

What part of her job was she doing in panel three of 62. Or panel three of 61. Or panel 4 of 61. That she didn't have time to give Andi an order?

Emperor Demonking
2017-06-17, 11:47 AM
Most people don't respond to being yelled at by knocking the yeller unconscious, and no reasonable people do.

I hope you never have to watch three people be killed while on a crashing airship being attacked by frost giants whether I'm there or not to be honest.

Edit You edited your post before I noticed. Now my post doesn't maker sense.

Hamish: Why do you think ndi came up? For air? Her first words are "Bandanna we've got damage all over the ship". She then went on to clarify that it was so bad that she thought thery ought to turn around. Bandanna then chose to argue with her. Andi did noty force Bandanna to explain her tactical disagreement. Bandanna chose to.

hamishspence
2017-06-17, 11:48 AM
She had to say "Andi, use your best judgment and fix something" but she chose not to. She clearly had time to do so.

She was concentrating on the battle. Andi should not need to be told that kind of thing.

eggynack
2017-06-17, 11:53 AM
Those traits seem largely told rather than shown to me (except for the unnecessarily complicated planning). Thog and Sabine are personally loyal to him, but Z's motives are never expanded on, and most of the rest of the Linear Guild members outright abandon Nale once they no longer have a personal stake in the group's success.
I mean, his plan is cohesive enough that they manage to coordinate their efforts in a number of places simultaneously, with incredibly limited communication, and have the plan work more or less perfectly. Roy has only managed to pull off a pretty limited version of that, way later in the story, as of the Tarquin ambush. A lot of the showing is also in what you don't see. The Linear Guild, in its various forms, may have some degree of conflict, but it's not typically on the level of the Order.



Which is beside the point, because I'm not contesting that he isn't a complete character. I would venture that the length of the buildup for getting Nale in position by Haley is largely unnecessary, by virtue of Nale's plans being unnecessarily complicated, and that while it is consistent with his characterization, it is also very low on the story-to-number-of-strips ratio.
I dunno about that. You have the attack itself, which was in large part for its own sake, exploring the dynamic taking place within the conflict between the two sides, and then does Nale even do that much until the rather short period of time when he decides to go after Haley?

Emperor Demonking
2017-06-17, 11:55 AM
She was concentrating on the battle. Andi should not need to be told that kind of thing.

No she wasn't. She was talking with Andi. Or even if she was she was taking time to argue with Andi rather than to say "Andi, use your best judgment and fix something". And I'll say it again, you don't want your engineer sequestering herself from the captain constantly, if even in that situation Bandanna had no special priorities then she should have said so. She came up, gave an assessment, threw her two pence in maybe, and Bandanna chose to argue with her.

I'll repeat this as my edit took ages and it won't be clear if you saw it otherwise(
Hamish: Why do you think ndi came up? For air? Her first words are "Bandanna we've got damage all over the ship". She then went on to clarify that it was so bad that she thought they ought to turn around. Bandanna then chose to argue with her. Andi did not force Bandanna to explain her tactical disagreement. Bandanna chose to. )

Grey_Wolf_c
2017-06-17, 11:55 AM
Staying in her post while everything was goind down is not what you want your cheif engineer to do. You want her to tell you and to get your priorities.

False. You are confusing "captain" with "babysitter" and "chief engineer" with "junior engineer". A Captain's job during battle is not to tell the chief engineer what her job looks like. Heck, I'd even go as far as saying that not even a junior engineer would need to be told to fix things during battle. And definitely a chief engineer does not need to be told priorities - it is her job to know what order to fix things in based on urgency, importance, etc. Subject to being overruled by the captain? Certainly. But in absence of direct instruction, she should be fixing things.

Bandana never ceased to do her job. Andi never started to do hers.


Then why did they listen to her at all? If no captain is better than Andi-captain then why listen to her?
Because the crew is not in possession of the full picture, nor is it their place to contradict the chain of command. Indeed, that is what made Andi in the wrong: both thinking herself more knowledgeable of the situation than Bandana and also thinking that she should ignore the chain of command.


Not when you immediately turn your head after an unreasonable provocation of someone carrying a heavy wrench in their dominant hand.
Oh, you're one of those that likes blaming the victim. OK, off to the ignore list you go.

GW

ORione
2017-06-17, 11:59 AM
Edit You edited your post before I noticed. Now my post doesn't maker sense.

Yeah, I decided my original comment was unnecessarily rude. I'm sorry both for making it and for making your post look nonsensical.

eggynack
2017-06-17, 12:03 PM
What part of her job was she doing in panel three of 62. Or panel three of 61. Or panel 4 of 61. That she didn't have time to give Andi an order?
She was giving direct responses regarding why she was taking the path she was in 1061, responses that were inexplicably insufficient to assuage Andi. And then, immediately after, she gives an order to the pilot. The only times you can point to Bandanna not doing her explicit job, in fact, is when she's explaining stuff to Andi. So, you want Bandanna to respond to Andi more, giving her a ton of explanation for everything, but when she does, she's not doing her job, which is bad. Whenever Bandanna isn't directly talking to Andi about whatever awful argument Andi is making, she's giving orders to folks.

Your demand for an order on Bandanna's part is ridiculous. Nothing that happens at any point in the sequence relies on a specific order from Bandanna that she doesn't give. If she's not giving orders, have you considered the fact that maybe she doesn't need to be giving orders to Andi? That any positive ship thing Andi could do would be great, but that there isn't any immediately vital decision she has to make here? Andi doesn't just not ask for direction in terms of what she should fix. She uses the idea of these broken things as an excuse to insult Bandanna. She had all the opportunity in the world to ask. While, at the same time, Bandanna didn't need to make use of her opportunity to order, because, again, the constant piloting instructions she was giving were much more immediately pressing.

Cizak
2017-06-17, 12:04 PM
I hope you never have to watch three people be killed while on a crashing airship being attacked by frost giants whether I'm there or not to be honest.

Oof, there we go. That's the big gut-punching comeback. Nice one.

Besides the fact that it still operates on the notion that physical assault is justifiable if the victim was rude enough, but still. Nice comeback.

Emperor Demonking
2017-06-17, 12:05 PM
False. You are confusing "captain" with "babysitter" and "chief engineer" with "junior engineer". A Captain's job is not to tell the chief engineer what her job looks like. Heck, I'd even go as far as saying that not even a junior engineer would need to be told to fix things during battle. And definitely a chief engineer does not need to be told priorities - it is her job to know what order to fix things in based on urgency, importance, etc. Subject to being overruled by the captain? Certainly. But in absence of direct instruction, she should be fixing things.

How can she know importance if she doesn't know the situation. How much effort would it have been on Bandanna's part to make clear if normal priorities applied or otherwise. This was an extraordinary situation.


Bandana never ceased to do her job. Andi never started to do hers.


Bandanna spent whole strips lying unconscious while they're trying to escape frost giants; 'never ceased to do her job' is comical.



Because the crew is not in possession of the full picture, nor is it their place to contradict the chain of command. Indeed, that is what made Andi in the wrong: both thinking herself more knowledgeable of the situation than Bandana and also thinking that she should ignore the chain of command.


We can't know whether Andi thought she should ignore the chain of command as Bandanna refused to give her an order.



Oh, you're one of those that likes blaming the victim. OK, off to the ignore list you go.

GW

The victim of the verbal assault was Andi. The physical assault came after the verbal assault. You are the one blaming the victim.

Kish
2017-06-17, 12:08 PM
Not to mention the (unsupported and, frankly, absurd) assumption that Bandana was ruder to Andi than Andi was to her.

Emperor Demonking
2017-06-17, 12:09 PM
Oof, there we go. That's the big gut-punching comeback. Nice one.

Besides the fact that it still operates on the notion that physical assault is justifiable if the victim was rude enough, but still. Nice comeback.

It wasn't a comeback. Ignoring the corpses and possible immenant death makes yours and her responses utter strawmen.

Andi saw herself as powerless and tried to save everyone's lives. Bandanna held all the power and chose to use it to viciously scream at her engineer.

Emperor Demonking
2017-06-17, 12:11 PM
Not to mention the (unsupported and, frankly, absurd) assumption that Bandana was ruder to Andi than Andi was to her.

Andi called Bandanna some names. Bandana got into her face and made the (unsupported and, frankly, absurd) claim that if Andi hadn't been moaning then everything would be super-fixed, and thus that if they had problems (bear in mind three corpses) it was all her fault for moaning.

eggynack
2017-06-17, 12:13 PM
How can she know importance if she doesn't know the situation. How much effort would it have been on Bandanna's part to make clear if normal priorities applied or otherwise. This was an extraordinary situation.
Andi, at literally no point, even when she brought up broken things, expressed any desire, ever, to have any input into what particular things she should fix. You know what you do if you want to know whether normal priorities apply? You ask. You know what you do if you don't care to ask? You assume normal priorities apply. You know what you never do? Hit your captain with a wrench.


Bandanna spent whole strips lying unconscious while they're trying to escape frost giants; 'never ceased to do her job' is comical.
...What?



We can't know whether Andi thought she should ignore the chain of command as Bandanna refused to give her an order.
Again, what? So, Bandanna doesn't literally say, "You should do your job," and that's an excuse to hit your captain in the face?



The victim of the verbal assault was Andi. The physical assault came after the verbal assault. You are the one blaming the victim.
You do realize that Andi insulted Bandanna immediately preceding the yelling, right? That Bandanna was yelling at her for constantly questioning her position as captain? And that, even while Bandanna was yelling, because again, Andi was complaining about Bandanna to her face constantly instead of doing her job, she never once insulted her, and then immediately transitioned into giving calm orders? If this is verbal assault, it is the tamest, non-assaulty assault ever seen.

Edit:
Andi called Bandanna some names. Bandana got into her face and made the (unsupported and, frankly, absurd) claim that if Andi hadn't been moaning then everything would be super-fixed, and thus that if they had problems (bear in mind three corpses) it was all her fault for moaning.
So we're on hyperbole now as the totally reasonable justification for physical assault. Unless, that is, you think that Bandanna literally thought that Andi could produce two ships in that time span.

Kish
2017-06-17, 12:18 PM
...What?
You see, if you have the basic premises: 1) Bandana being unconscious was someone's fault. 2) It can't have been Andi's. 3) It was someone involved in the exchange where she yelled at Andi and told her to do her job instead of constantly complaining and insulting Bandana,

or, alternatively, the premise: 1) BANDANA IS BAD SHE JUST IS DAMN IT,

then it makes sense to blame Bandana for falling unconscious when Andi totally-not-viciously hit her on the back of her head with a wrench.

Vinyadan
2017-06-17, 12:18 PM
About the "evil" question about Andi's acts: I'll go with "chaotic".

About her shock: I'll go with "She knows that the ship has a large neutral (on the good-evil axis) component, so she cannot be sure she won't have to walk the board later".

About the weapon system: that's not information you can let fly around freely, or the first undercover agent who infiltrates the ship will disable its defense at the right moment.

Emperor Demonking
2017-06-17, 12:23 PM
You do realize that Andi insulted Bandanna immediately preceding the yelling, right? That Bandanna was yelling at her for constantly questioning her position as captain? And that, even while Bandanna was yelling, because again, Andi was complaining about Bandanna to her face constantly instead of doing her job, she never once insulted her, and then immediately transitioned into giving calm orders? If this is verbal assault, it is the tamest, non-assaulty assault ever seen.

Edit:
So we're on hyperbole now as the totally reasonable justification for physical assault. Unless, that is, you think that Bandanna literally thought that Andi could produce two ships in that time span.

Bandanna did not literally think that Andi could could produce two ships in that timespan. The issue was that the frost giants were producing more damage than Andi could repair. The hyperbole is that if Andi wasn't moaning she would be able to do more than enough repairs*. Yes it was non-literal. But it was also entirely false.

*Thus if she and everyone she cares about does die then its all her fault for being a moaner. She did this from position of being the captain, and also the position of screaming in her face.

And an awful thing to say. The fact that she went back to being so calm and never needed to insult only magnifies the abuse, it doesn't diminish it.

The question is "if you scream in the face of a person reasonably fightened that they are going to die, is it unforgivable and evil for them to smack you in the back of the head (assuming you turn your head immediately after screaming)" I say nay.

Cazero
2017-06-17, 12:26 PM
It wasn't a comeback. Ignoring the corpses and possible immenant death makes yours and her responses utter strawmen.
Ignoring the corpses is what Andi should have done. While sad and an objective indicator of danger, her crewman dying requires her to work harder. Instead, she chose to abandon her post and distract the captain.


Andi saw herself as powerless and tried to save everyone's lives. Bandanna held all the power and chose to use it to viciously scream at her engineer.
Vicious scream? Where?
I only see Bandana raising her voice for one sentence due to exasperation at her engineer wasting everyone time instead of doing her friggin' job.


edited for clarity I know what I'm talking about. I've escalated being constantly nagged to physical violence twice. I was under 10 years old and wrong both time, yet demonstrated better self control than Andi considering my problem was on the recurring harrasment scale.
Also, I'm an engineer and I know for a fact that my technical skills means zilch in the leadership department.

Keltest
2017-06-17, 12:28 PM
Honestly, I'm a little skeptical that Andi doesn't know about them. She's the chief engineer, you cant possibly tell me that she's never had to fix one of the ballistae in her time on the ship. Not that I think that her objection would be something like "theyre hard wired into the propellers, by dropping them you just killed the power" or something stupid like that, but "don't pull this lever or the whole thing falls off" is sort of important knowledge for anybody who might be working on those things.

eggynack
2017-06-17, 12:29 PM
Bandanna did not literally think that Andi could could produce two ships in that timespan. The issue was that the frost giants were producing more damage than Andi could repair. The hyperbole is that if Andi wasn't moaning she would be able to do more than enough repairs*. Yes it was non-literal. But it was also entirely false.

*Thus if she and everyone she cares about does die then its all her fault for being a moaner. She did this from position of being the captain, and also the position of screaming in her face.

And an awful thing to say. The fact that she went back to being so calm and never needed to insult only magnifies the abuse, it doesn't diminish it.
Literally all Bandanna was saying was that Andi could have fixed a lot of stuff if she had been doing her job all this time. This whole thing about everyone's death being Andi's fault, or even about Andi's capacity to outpace damages, is coming from absolutely nowhere. It doesn't appear in the text to any extent.



The question is "if you scream in the face of a person reasonably fightened that they are going to die, is it unforgivable and evil for them to smack you in the back of the head (assuming you turn your head immediately after screaming)" I say nay.

She wasn't expressing fear at that point. By then, she was only expressing distaste for Bandanna's leadership, using any excuse to call her out, despite the fact that Andi's stated issues were all ridiculous.

Cizak
2017-06-17, 12:33 PM
It wasn't a comeback. Ignoring the corpses and possible immenant death makes yours and her responses utter strawmen.

Andi saw herself as powerless and tried to save everyone's lives. Bandanna held all the power and chose to use it to viciously scream at her engineer.

Believe me, out of all the people from human history who have willingly signed on to work in potential life-or-death situations where a clear hierarchy was designated amonst the team, the dominating majority of them who have seen their comrades die have then not gone on to assault their commanders.

It's always interesting how certain people feel "If I was in this situation, I would definitly choose to be an assaulter" is an adequate defense for assault (and other similar crimes).

Cazero
2017-06-17, 12:37 PM
It's always interesting how certain people feel "If I was in this situation, I would definitly choose to be an assaulter" is an adequate defense for assault (and other similar crimes).
Well, it's an adequate explanation for why the assault happened. But it's called a motive, not a defense.

Kish
2017-06-17, 12:39 PM
She wasn't expressing fear at that point. By then, she was only expressing distaste for Bandanna's leadership, using any excuse to call her out, despite the fact that Andi's stated issues were all ridiculous.
Yeah, that's "the question" in some other comic, which isn't on this site. On this site, the question relevant to the depicted situation is: If you've been engineer on the ship for fifteen years, and the acting captain seems to be under the impression she has the right to give orders to you, and after you call her a stubborn little brat and whine that she's not just doing what you tell her to do she has the unmitigated nerve to sarcastically tell you you should be doing your job rather than standing on the bridge constantly yelling at her, you hit her viciously on the back of the head (with a clear expression of incandescent rage at her lack of deference, not fear), tie her up, give some orders when the crew repeatedly nag you to, gloat over having hit her and tied her up, and demonstrate empirically that the things you wanted the ship to do were bad ideas to begin with, the only logical conclusion is that of course you were in the wrong, entirely and unambiguously, and any resistance to recognizing that speaks entirely to the people who choose to distort what happens in the name of not recognizing that, not the writing.

Oh wait--that's not a question.

Emperor Demonking
2017-06-17, 12:40 PM
Ignoring the corpses is what Andi should have done. While sad and an objective indicator of danger, her crewman dying requires her to work harder. Instead, she chose to abandon her post and distract the captain.


Vicious scream? Where?
I only see Bandana raising her voice for one sentence due to exasperation at her engineer wasting everyone time instead of doing her friggin' job.


You don't see Bandanna leaning forwards, hand raised face very close to Andi thus forcing Andi to lean back?


Literally all Bandanna was saying was that Andi could have fixed a lot of stuff if she had been doing her job all this time. This whole thing about everyone's death being Andi's fault, or even about Andi's capacity to outpace damages, is coming from absolutely nowhere. It doesn't appear in the text to any extent.

Imagine a homeless man. His son has died for lack of home. He complains about this a couple of times. That person gets annoyed he screams - getting in the face of - "if you moaned half as much you'd have ten homes". Yes its obviously hyperbole. But there's a scale. On one hand is the truth on the other is hyperbole. Somewhere in the middle is how true it would have to be to solve the problem.

By using hyperbole to exagerate Andi's ability to affect the situation - exagerating it to pass the point where she can solve it - is not reasonable.

I also don't think we can assume that her fear - which 'returns' after becoming captain - can be assumed to have dissipated while she and Bandanna were arguing, even if she is not obviously showing it.

Keltest
2017-06-17, 12:42 PM
You don't see Bandanna leaning forwards, hand raised face very close to Andi thus forcing Andi to lean back?



Imagine a homeless man. His son has died for lack of home. He complains about this a couple of times. That person gets annoyed he screams - getting in the face of - "if you moaned half as much you'd have ten homes". Yes its obviously hyperbole. But there's a scale. On one hand is the truth on the other is hyperbole. Somewhere in the middle is how true it would have to be to solve the problem.

By using hyperbole to exagerate Andi's ability to affect the situation - exagerating it to pass the point where she can solve it - is not reasonable.

I also don't think we can assume that her fear - which 'returns' after becoming captain - can be assumed to have dissipated while she and Bandanna were arguing, even if she is not obviously showing it.

This is starting to sound an awful lot like "Andi was actually temporarily violently insane and therefore cant be held accountable for her actions. Bandana should also have known that Andi was temporarily violently insane and not interacted with her at all."

That's not really a good argument.

SaintRidley
2017-06-17, 12:43 PM
And here I thought the OP was going to be our example of what it looks like to be aggressively bad at reading stories, but a challenger has appeared to really raise the bar. Bravo. We're able to witness the most complex parallel bars routine in the history of mental gymnastics.

Emperor Demonking
2017-06-17, 12:46 PM
Believe me, out of all the people from human history who have willingly signed on to work in potential life-or-death situations where a clear hierarchy was designated amonst the team, the dominating majority of them who have seen their comrades die have then not gone on to assault their commanders.


But the dominating majority did have their commanders refuse to command them and instead abuse their power to yell in their face. It is that subset where the comparison can be made.

Keltest
2017-06-17, 12:47 PM
But the dominating majority did have their commanders refuse to command them and instead abuse their power to yell in their face. It is that subset where the comparison can be made.

In what way is 'Do your job and start fixing things" not a command?

Cazero
2017-06-17, 12:48 PM
You don't see Bandanna leaning forwards, hand raised face very close to Andi thus forcing Andi to lean back?
That's screaming allright. But how is it vicious? Is there some gratuitous cruelty in there that I missed? Because the reason Bandana is screaming is exasperation at Andi for abandonning her post once again for the express purpose of distracting her captain in a crisis with stupid comments. That's not vicious, that's emotional. Like Andi bonking Bandana over the head.

Emperor Demonking
2017-06-17, 12:51 PM
This is starting to sound an awful lot like "Andi was actually temporarily violently insane and therefore cant be held accountable for her actions. Bandana should also have known that Andi was temporarily violently insane and not interacted with her at all."

That's not really a good argument.

No Bandanna made her tenmporarily violently insane by screaming untruths in her face after Andi had seen three people die. She should therefore not screamed untruths violently in her face, and instead calmly gave orders. Any claim that Bandanna did not have time to do that is shown to be false by 1) the fact that she had time to yell truths in her face 2) the fact that she had repeated time to justify her actions.

I would also go on to claim that Andi not showing enough initiative is not justification for Bandanna screaming in her face. And thus regardless of Andi's state Bandanna still acted morally wrong in a way that simple insults are not.

eggynack
2017-06-17, 12:51 PM
Imagine a homeless man. His son has died for lack of home. He complains about this a couple of times. That person gets annoyed he screams - getting in the face of - "if you moaned half as much you'd have ten homes". Yes its obviously hyperbole. But there's a scale. On one hand is the truth on the other is hyperbole. Somewhere in the middle is how true it would have to be to solve the problem.
This is just ridiculously different from the actual situation, a lot of the difference lying in what you haven't said. Like, who is this person the homeless guy is complaining to? Half as much as he did what? Because, in this context, a close but not identical version would have the person being complained to as his employer, and the homeless guy as someone who never comes into work and instead keeps complaining to his employer about how he doesn't have enough money. And the son who died is, I guess, also the employer's son? Because the son presumably has the same relationship to both people? Oh, and the homeless guy and the employer's other children are being endangered by the homeless guy's lack of work. And the employer isn't actually all that much more powerful relative to the situation as a whole. So maybe they're homeless too?

So, yeah, super insanely different.


By using hyperbole to exagerate Andi's ability to affect the situation - exagerating it to pass the point where she can solve it - is not reasonable.
Andi is literally the person whose job it is to fix this stuff. Bandanna can't realistically do anything about it. Andi is thus complaining to Bandanna about something that is in Andi's power, and only in Andi's power, and within her sphere of responsibility, to fix. And she's not actually fixing the stuff. This, and only this, is what Bandanna was expressing. That she was spending a whole hell of a lot of time not fixing stuff. The hyperbole, if anything, is tied into the amount of time spent not fixing things, not the amount that Andi can fix things. After all, Bandanna never, at any point, in I think the entire comic, tells Bandanna off about her skill or speed at fixing things. She only took issue with Andi just not fixing things.


I also don't think we can assume that her fear - which 'returns' after becoming captain - can be assumed to have dissipated while she and Bandanna were arguing, even if she is not obviously showing it.
It's certainly not the major thing she's focused on in that moment.

Cazero
2017-06-17, 12:56 PM
No Bandanna made her tenmporarily violently insane by screaming untruths in her face after Andi had seen three people die. She should therefore not screamed untruths violently in her face, and instead calmly gave orders.
I'll point that the "seeing three people die" and "being told untruth about capabilities" defenses also apply to justify Bandana screaming.

hamishspence
2017-06-17, 12:58 PM
Bandana was calmly giving orders, to the other crew, and giving calm responses to Andi's complaints. Her stress was rising though.


"I ain't got time for that now!" was as close to a "Stop bothering me" order as it got. When Andi continued in the face of this - she opened herself to a well-deserved yelling-at.

Emperor Demonking
2017-06-17, 01:05 PM
Cazero: I think claiming that Andi could save she ship if she stopped moaning - even if hyperbole - is vicious when it is untrue.


In what way is 'Do your job and start fixing things" not a command?

She gave that concurrently with the screaming. Andi did not possibly have time to do that before listening - and thus reflexively reacting - to the next part. Indeed by forcing Andi to lean back, Bandanna did not give her the ability to leave after the order.

eggynack:
So simplifying examples don't help with you (how does Bandanna being the employer change anything in the situation I gave? etc.)

If Andi's job is to fix all the damage that a tribe of frost giants can inflict then just by that, Bandanna is being unreasonable. And Andi is utterly in her rights to request more doable or feasible a task. But as I said not showing off enough agency is not justification for verbal assault. Engaging with your commander as she engages you and she can at anytime dismiss you, is certainly not justification for verbal assault. If Andi has been annoying Bandanna for a while then Bandanna had a while to stop the situation before screaming. Andi on the other hand reacted immediately, emotionally to Bandanna's escalation of the situation.

Emperor Demonking
2017-06-17, 01:11 PM
Bandana was calmly giving orders, to the other crew, and giving calm responses to Andi's complaints. Her stress was rising though.


"I ain't got time for that now!" was as close to a "Stop bothering me" order as it got. When Andi continued in the face of this - she opened herself to a well-deserved yelling-at.

"As it got" is right but compared to "go", fix something", "go fix something" it isn't much. Which is sort of demonstrated by the fact that what she first screams is "then fix something", which then by continuing to speak and being in her face she refuses to let Andi immediately go forth and do it.

eggynack
2017-06-17, 01:14 PM
eggynack:
So simplifying examples don't help with you (how does Bandanna being the employer change anything in the situation I gave? etc.)
The changes matter because they mean that the homeless person has incredibly direct actions, relative to the employer, that would help alleviate their situation, and that this isn't just someone talking down to someone far beneath them, and that the homeless person is directly shirking their responsibilities.


If Andi's job is to fix all the damage that a tribe of frost giants can inflict then just by that, Bandanna is being unreasonable.
Bandanna never expresses that Andi needs to fix all the damage. Ever. Her hyperbole was explicitly directed towards the time Andi was spending not fixing. Andi's job is to fix as much stuff as she can, within reason. She, obviously wasn't doing that job. Or any job.


And Andi is utterly in her rights to request more doable or feasible a task.
She didn't request a more doable or feasible task. That's a thing that literally never happened.


But as I said not showing off enough agency is not justification for verbal assault.
She wasn't not showing agency. She was actively not doing her job. The non-agency move would be just neutrally doing your job. Andi was showing agency, towards not doing her job. That was the problem.


Engaging with your commander as she engages you and she can at anytime dismiss you, is certainly not justification for verbal assault.
So, the attack was Bandanna's fault for answering Andi's directly stated concerns in a calm and rational manner, and then getting angry when Andi directly insulted her.


If Andi has been annoying Bandanna for a while then Bandanna had a while to stop the situation before screaming. Andi on the other hand reacted immediately, emotionally to Bandanna's escalation of the situation.
Again, Andi directly insulted Bandanna's leadership capacity. For something Andi wasn't doing. And Bandanna just kinda yelled normal stuff at her.

Kish
2017-06-17, 01:22 PM
It's also goofy to describe Bandana yelling back, sarcastically, at someone who had been yelling at her constantly, with insults like "stubborn little brat" and "Little Miss Junior Captain," as "escalating the situation." Andi couldn't deal with the fact that the captain expected her to obey orders, rather then showing her deference. It "escalated the situation" in that it took the situation from "Andi screams abuse and Bandana stands there and takes it" to "Andi screams abuse and Bandana doesn't stand there and take it," but it's a truly warped perspective that would call that an inappropriate escalation on Bandana's part.

Jaxzan Proditor
2017-06-17, 01:24 PM
This is possibly the most hilarious case of both-siderism I've seen in a while, with a decent bit of loaded language thrown in for fun. Just to be clear, conflating Bandana's shouting at Andi with Andi knocking her unconscious with a wrench is nothing short of ludicrous, even if we pretend that Bandana was somehow completely unjustified in telling Andi to lay off her.

Also, IANAL, but verbal assault usually involves some kind of actual threat or implication of harm, or some manner of hate speech (possibly?). As far as I know, raising your voice at someone is unlikely to be considered assault unless Andi had a legitimate reason to fear harm. I guess you could potentially make the argument that's the case, but it's far from indisputable, unlike the case of physical assault from Andi.

Emperor Demonking
2017-06-17, 01:33 PM
"The changes matter because they mean that the homeless person has incredibly direct actions, relative to the employer, that would help alleviate their situation, and that this isn't just someone talking down to someone far beneath them, and that the homeless person is directly shirking their responsibilities. "

The homeless man could have been given the deeds to a house, lost them in drunken stupor and getting in his face and yelling at him after a handful of comments would still be unreasonable. That is even more true when the employer could simply command him to leave.

"She wasn't not showing agency. She was actively not doing her job. The non-agency move would be just neutrally doing your job. Andi was showing agency, towards not doing her job. That was the problem."

She was with her employer. Her employer yelling at her for having been with her employer is like a bad joke from The Office. If Bandanna did not want her there then she had plenty of time to actually say so. Its not like you can claim that Bandanna was unaware stuff needed fixing. That was the first thing Andi told her.


It's also goofy to describe Bandana yelling back, sarcastically, at someone who had been yelling at her constantly, with insults like "stubborn little brat" and "Little Miss Junior Captain," as "escalating the situation." Andi couldn't deal with the fact that the captain expected her to obey orders, rather then showing her deference.

Nothing Andi did up to that point was anything near to the level of what Bandana did when it comes to yelling. Also, you mention insults like '"stubborn little brat" and "Little Miss Junior Captain,"' could you please give an which is like (but isn't one one of) those, please?

Bandanna made it a physical confrontation when she forced Andi to lean physically back. That's escalation. Andi certainly escalated far further in reflexive reaction, but any claim that Bandi's hand raised, leaning forward screaming is not an escalation is farcical.

Alcore
2017-06-17, 01:38 PM
Much like sex, stories are a race, and ATrueFan intends to be the winner.

I feel your analogy is flawed, but that might be on purpose. :smalltongue:


Sex tends to need both to finish at the same time or it's often bad sex. However some want to hurry to end and end it badly (for others, at least). As tired as i am of the airship it does have a purpose. Of course, the Giant has his own purpose for the whole thing.


And stories are not races (unless your a professional in which case it's not the story but the need for something marketable) but works of art. Some are fast some are slow but they are a marathon that is heedless to the pace of the audience. I could pick a random book and read it and want book two when done but nothing says it will be done and on shelves when i finish book one.


A webcomic breaks this a bit being able to read it as it comes. But a webcomic is more like a book than it is sex....

Vinyadan
2017-06-17, 01:43 PM
People, you are so worked up on this thing, and can't even spell the nickname right. It's Bandana, not Bandanna! :tongue:

eggynack
2017-06-17, 01:44 PM
The homeless man could have been given the deeds to a house, lost them in drunken stupor and getting in his face and yelling at him after a handful of comments would still be unreasonable. That is even more true when the employer could simply command him to leave.
Andi wasn't in a drunken stupor. She was continuously and actively making the decision to not do her job.


She was with her employer. Her employer yelling at her for having been with her employer is like a bad joke from The Office. If Bandanna did not want her there then she had plenty of time to actually say so. Its not like you can claim that Bandanna was unaware stuff needed fixing. That was the first thing Andi told her.
Her employer was yelling at her primarily because she was insulting said employer on the basis of things she herself wasn't doing. "My job isn't being done, you big dummy," in other words.

Emperor Demonking
2017-06-17, 01:57 PM
Andi wasn't in a drunken stupor. She was continuously and actively making the decision to not do her job.
The homeless man could have been given the deeds to a house, lost them in continuously and actively making the decision to not do his job and getting in his face and yelling at him after a handful of comments would still be unreasonable. That is even more true when the employer could simply command him to leave.



Her employer was yelling at her primarily because she was insulting said employer on the basis of things she herself wasn't doing. "My job isn't being done, you big dummy," in other words.

Which is still not a justifiable reason for getting in Andi's face and screaming at her. It also isn't accurate. Andi can not reasonably fix the "damage all over the ship" problem - unless you're suggesting taking a meter square and just focusing on that. Imagine if a doctor said "if you keep smoking it is likely that you will die from lung cancer", if the patient then - during the reflex test - got into the doctor's face and screamed "THEN DO YOUR JOB AND CURE ME. If you spent half the time you spent moaning as you did on helping people then all your patients would have four healthy lungs" would you really have no sympathy if the doctor reflexively struck the patient with the reflex hammer.

(Yes obviously its not the same situation, the patient is not the doctor's employer, the doctor is not in a life or death situation, insults, the doctor wasn't in a mental state based on seeing people die, doctor's pledge 'do no harm' Andi didn't, society needs more trust in the non-violence of doctors than in engineers. etc. But essentially all those differences are in your favour so can you comment on the situation where we abrast from brave Bandi and awful Andi.)

Alcore
2017-06-17, 02:06 PM
People, you are so worked up on this thing, and can't even spell the nickname right. It's Bandana, not Bandanna! :tongue:

Hey! :smallmad:


It's miles better than my "hey you!" Or "that captain person" :smallbiggrin:


I think i once read captain banana a while back :smalleek:

eggynack
2017-06-17, 02:09 PM
People, you are so worked up on this thing, and can't even spell the nickname right. It's Bandana, not Bandanna! :tongue:
Really? Weird. Just looked up the word itself, and it looks like both are valid spellings. Obviously wouldn't apply to the name though.

The homeless man could have been given the deeds to a house, lost them in continuously and actively making the decision to not do his job and getting in his face and yelling at him after a handful of comments would still be unreasonable. That is even more true when the employer could simply command him to leave.
A handful of comments about how the employer is implicitly at fault for the loss of the deed. When the employer is also, presumably, homeless. And with all those other things I said, if some are left out. After other insulting and diminishing comments were made in the past. At some point, getting angry becomes rather justifiable. Hitting someone with a wrench, notably, does not become justifiable at any of these steps. Not even when it was just a random person yelling at a homeless person for no reason about how they don't have a house.


Which is still not a justifiable reason for getting in Andi's face and screaming at her.
Kinda is.


It also isn't accurate. Andi can not reasonably fix the "damage all over the ship" problem - unless you're suggesting taking a meter square and just focusing on that.
She never told Andi to fix damage all over the ship. She literally only told her to fix something, in those exact words. You're making things up.


Imagine if a doctor said "if you keep smoking it is likely that you will die from lung cancer", if the patient then - during the reflex test - got into the doctor's face and screamed "THEN DO YOUR JOB AND CURE ME. If you spent half the time you spent moaning as you did on helping people then all your patients would have four healthy lungs" would you really have no sympathy if the doctor reflexively struck the patient with the reflex hammer.

(Yes obviously its not the same situation, the patient is not the doctor's employer, the doctor is not in a life or death situation, insults, the doctor wasn't in a mental state based on seeing people die, doctor's pledge 'do no harm' Andi didn't, society needs more trust in the non-violence of doctors than in engineers. etc. But essentially all those differences are in your favour so can you comment on the situation where we abrast from brave Bandi and awful Andi.)
I've already explained all the reasons your other posited analog is super flawed. I'm not going to spend extra time explaining the ridiculous number of ways this situation is also completely different, many not in "my favor" at all. There's no utility to it, from a basic rhetorical standpoint. What's so complex about the basic situation that we need all these ridiculous analogs, anyway?

Kish
2017-06-17, 02:15 PM
We need ridiculous analogies because of the one thing both silly analogies have in common: They replace Andi with someone who did nothing wrong prior to or following the assault, just a completely blameless person who got screamed at for no reason, and they replace Bandana with a completely awful person who is wrong about everything.

So, you know, all the differences are "in your favor," where "in your favor" is defined as "shifting nearly all the guilt from Andi to Bandana preemptively."

Draconi Redfir
2017-06-17, 02:27 PM
No Bandanna made her tenmporarily violently insane by screaming untruths in her face after Andi had seen three people die. She should therefore not screamed untruths violently in her face, and instead calmly gave orders. Any claim that Bandanna did not have time to do that is shown to be false by 1) the fact that she had time to yell truths in her face 2) the fact that she had repeated time to justify her actions.

I would also go on to claim that Andi not showing enough initiative is not justification for Bandanna screaming in her face. And thus regardless of Andi's state Bandanna still acted morally wrong in a way that simple insults are not.

all i can say is this:

if your main job description is "Fixes machines"

And you are aware of multiple BROKEN machines

And you are aware as to how those BROKEN machines are PREVENTING you from being alive

Your first instinct SHOULD be "Fix the damn machines" not "Complain about the broken machines and the people who died because they are currently broken"

Emperor Demonking
2017-06-17, 02:44 PM
We need ridiculous analogies because of the one thing both silly analogies have in common: They replace Andi with someone who did nothing wrong prior to or following the assault, just a completely blameless person who got screamed at for no reason, and they replace Bandana with a completely awful person who is wrong about everything.


How do they possibly do that. The most recent homeless one has a guy letting his son die by virtie of having lost something in continuously and actively making the decision to not do his job.

In any situation where someone other than Bandi screams in somebody's face after that person has made a few comments makes the bandi-character come out as the bad-guy, then perhaps invading someone's space in order to scream at them is wrong?

"She never told Andi to fix damage all over the ship. She literally only told her to fix something, in those exact words. You're making things up. "

Your quote was " "My job isn't being done, you big dummy," in other words. " You were clearly refering to Andi's comments and Andi explicitly states that the problem is "we've got damage all over the ship". Pretending that you were talking about Bandana's comment is utterly unjustifiable.

And of course Bandi never suggested, hinted or said "told her to fix something" until she started screaming at her. And upon screaming at her to 'then fix something' she then continued doing her little rant thus not letting her to immediately actually go to fix the machines.

"I've already explained all the reasons your other posited analog is super flawed. I'm not going to spend extra time explaining the ridiculous number of ways this situation is also completely different, many not in "my favor" at all. There's no utility to it, from a basic rhetorical standpoint. What's so complex about the basic situation that we need all these ridiculous analogs, anyway? "

If the number of relevant ways that my four sentence situation is different from the actual situation is 'ridiculous' does that not suggest that you think the relevant details in the comic is ridiculous (minus up to four sentences worth). That seems super-detailed to me.


all i can say is this:

if your main job description is "Fixes machines"

And you are aware of multiple BROKEN machines

And you are aware as to how those BROKEN machines are PREVENTING you from being alive

Your first instinct SHOULD be "Fix the damn machines" not "Complain about the broken machines and the people who died because they are currently broken"

If you were in a situation where there were many broken machines. Too many broken machines to fix them all. Indeed in your professional opinion too many necessary broken machines to save the day, unless your captain has a good plan. You would simply down with the machines fixing random - or even best judgment - machines rather than going up and telling your captain the situation and discussing/getting orders of what to do? Bearing in mind that in your professional judgment staying down and fixing the most obvious equals death for everybody?

eggynack
2017-06-17, 02:57 PM
How do they possibly do that. The most recent homeless one has a guy letting his son die by virtie of having lost something in continuously and actively making the decision to not do his job.
The only possible point is that. If the new situation weren't different in some way that makes it seem worse for the person in Andi's role, what would be the point of it? It's not really simplifying anything in a meaningful way.


In any situation where someone other than Bandi screams in somebody's face after that person has made a few comments makes the bandi-character come out as the bad-guy, then perhaps invading someone's space in order to scream at them is wrong?
If you start removing a bunch of stuff and changing a bunch of stuff, and then people think the person yelling is wrong, then maybe some of that stuff you removed was relevant to why the person being yelled at was in the wrong.


"She never told Andi to fix damage all over the ship. She literally only told her to fix something, in those exact words. You're making things up. "

Your quote was " "My job isn't being done, you big dummy," in other words. " You were clearly refering to Andi's comments and Andi explicitly states that the problem is "we've got damage all over the ship". Pretending that you were talking about Bandana's comment is utterly unjustifiable.
Andi's problem was a bunch of specific stuff going wrong. Bandana's problem was that Andi wasn't working on any of it, not that she wasn't working on all of it. Andi set the universe of discourse really broadly, and Andi told her to do anything in that set of things, and then gave a specific order.


And of course Bandi never suggested, hinted or said "told her to fix something" until she started screaming at her. And upon screaming at her to 'then fix something' she then continued doing her little rant thus not letting her to immediately actually go to fix the machines.
She really shouldn't need to be told to do her basic job. This continuation of her little rant you speak of is the exact thing you're saying you wanted, specific instructions about what to do.



If the number of relevant ways that my four sentence situation is different from the actual situation is 'ridiculous' does that not suggest that you think the relevant details in the comic is ridiculous (minus up to four sentences worth). That seems super-detailed to me.
No? There's a large quantity of relevant strips here, and a lot of things implicit to their roles on the ship. And a lot of the differences are from your additions. For example, Andi is neither homeless nor sick. She's not being externally impaired in the way you're implying, and to whatever extent she is, Bandana is being equally impaired.


If you were in a situation where there were many broken machines. Too many broken machines to fix them all. Indeed in your professional opinion too many necessary broken machines to save the day, unless your captain has a good plan. You would simply down with the machines fixing random - or even best judgment - machines rather than going up and telling your captain the situation and discussing/getting orders of what to do? Bearing in mind that in your professional judgment staying down and fixing the most obvious equals death for everybody?
If I were in that situation, I would either fix machines based on my judgement, or I would ask Bandana for orders regarding what I should fix. Andi did neither of those. She never, ever, in the entire comic, asked for this kind of guidance, even implicitly.

Kish
2017-06-17, 03:05 PM
Seriously? You know in Star Wars, when Tarkin blows up Alderaan? Imagine if, following it, Leia had been able to get close to Tarkin and screamed at him, "YOU'RE A MONSTER!"

Would you say she was wrong? Would you say Tarkin was justified in hitting her on the back of her head with a wrench as soon as she turned away (or should be declared to have done so "by reflex," "in fear," having been driven insane by Leia screaming in his face, and otherwise excused)? If yes, you're consistent and horrifying. If no, then it's really quite goofy to equate your two cherry-picked scenarios in which the person who stands in for the character you've been trying to declare wrong from the start has the deck stacked against them, with "any situation where someone other than Bandi(whoever this is) screams in someone's face." You could easily come up with a scenario in which Bandana is clearly in the right (I mean, other than the one in the comic). You aren't choosing to do so. Your original "homeless person" scenario had a blameless homeless person being scolded by an uninvolved sadist; that you accepted some of eggynack's proposed changes, while complaining that they weren't necessary and completely ignoring others, neither makes it a valid analogy nor changes what you attempted to pass off as an analogy to begin with (though, I note, it does apparently ruin the analogy enough for you that you tried to switch to a different analogy which, like your original one, has Bandana's analogue being awful and solely responsible for the situation and Andi's analogue being blameless).

goodpeople25
2017-06-17, 03:05 PM
All Bandana's decisions happen to be wrong and other options are right by default and that opinion in no way has anything to do with Bandana totally being the same brat as when she was 8.

Just the professional opinion of the chief engineer folks!

Or is that one of thise vicious untruths I keep hearing about that justify assault? (but not a vicious one because walking around and talking with a weapon in your dominant hand clears you of that) Oh well if the other characters were reasonable Andi should of been stabbed anyway (or is that only when they turn around?) so unprofessionals all around.

Emperor Demonking
2017-06-17, 03:14 PM
The only possible point is that. If the new situation weren't different in some way that makes it seem worse for the person in Andi's role, what would be the point of it? It's not really simplifying anything in a meaningful way.

If you start removing a bunch of stuff and changing a bunch of stuff, and then people think the person yelling is wrong, then maybe some of that stuff you removed was relevant to why the person being yelled at was in teh wrong.

And that is the pointy of a simplified analogy. To find out where the disagreeement actually lies. But you object to that.





Andi's problem was a bunch of specific stuff going wrong. Bandana's problem was that Andi wasn't working on any of it, not that she wasn't working on all of it.

If that was her problem, then why not tell her to work on something (without screaming at her?) What was preventing her from giving the order to go fix stuff, rather than chosing to argue her plan with andi, when Bandi held the trump card of simply giving the order to go.




She really shouldn't need to be told to do her basic job. This continuation of her little rant you speak of is the exact thing you're saying you wanted, specific instructions about what to do.

That's utterly untrue. "That's your dang job around here ain't it. If you spent half the time patching that you spend complaining, we'd have two whole ships by the end of the pass."





No? There's a large quantity of relevant strips here, and a lot of things implicit to their roles on the ship. And a lot of the differences are from your additions. For example, Andi is neither homeless nor sick. She's not being externally impaired in the way you're implying, and to whatever extent she is, Bandana is being equally impaired.

Leaning over somebody with your face in their face is not the same impairment as being leant over with somebody's face and hand in your face.




If I were in that situation, I would either fix machines based on my judgement, or I would ask Bandana for orders regarding what I should fix. Andi did neither of those. She never, ever, in the entire comic, asked for this kind of guidance, even implicitly.

So an underling cannot be expected to be given orders. But a captain should assume that unless explicitly asked she is not to give orders? Is not fixing something and instead staying on deck after giving her assesment not implicit. Is not "if you have an issue with what I am doing and would rather I be doing something else" always implicit simply based on their respective roles?

Do you think that Bandana not giving calm orders was a good thing? Or simply that Andi not correctly deducing the corrrect thing to do (in the stressful and unusual situation) - even with the captain right there to correct her - is such an unjustifiable thing that it gives Bandana a moral pass to do as she wishes? That getting in somebody's face and screaming at someone is not a bad thing? A good thing?

Lacuna Caster
2017-06-17, 03:18 PM
Do you think that Bandana not giving calm orders was a good thing? Or simply that Andi not correctly deducing the corrrect thing to do (in the stressful and unusual situation) - even with the captain right there to correct her - is such an unjustifiable thing that it gives Bandana a moral pass to do as she wishes? That getting in somebody's face and screaming at someone is not a bad thing? A good thing?

I don't know anything about these people, but I'm pretty sure this is entering 'morally justified' territory.

Emperor Demonking
2017-06-17, 03:20 PM
Seriously? You know in Star Wars, when Tarkin blows up Alderaan? Imagine if, following it, Leia had been able to get close to Tarkin and screamed at him, "YOU'RE A MONSTER!"

Would you say she was wrong? Would you say Tarkin was justified in hitting her on the back of her head with a wrench as soon as she turned away? If yes, you're consistent and horrifying. If no, then it's really quite goofy to equate your two cherry-picked scenarios in which the person who stands in for the character you've been trying to declare wrong from the start has the deck stacked against them, with "any situation where someone other than Bandi(whoever this is) screams in someone's face." You could easily come up with a scenario in which Bandana is clearly in the right (I mean, other than the one in the comic). You aren't choosing to do so. Your original "homeless person" scenario had a blameless homeless person being scolded by an uninvolved sadist; that you accepted some of eggynack's proposed changes, while complaining that they weren't necessary and completely ignoring others, neither makes it a valid analogy nor changes what you attempted to pass off as an analogy to begin with (though, I note, it does apparently ruin the analogy enough for you that you tried to switch to a different analogy which, like your original one, has Bandana's analogue being awful and solely responsible for the situation and Andi's analogue being blameless).

Thank you for you analogy. My views are different in this situation. As an honest person I shall now describe the relevant points where I think the differences lie.

1) Tarkin is not in a stressful situation.
2) Leia simply poses no threat to Tarkin and he is not in a dangerous situation.

One difference that I do not think is relevant, is that Leia did not have the power to simply tell Tarkin to use the laser - as Bandi could have calmly ordered Andi - and that even if she had had that power and chose not to use it, then that would not have explained his actions being that the two differences above remained different.

Douglas
2017-06-17, 03:27 PM
If that was her problem, then why not tell her to work on something (without screaming at her?) What was preventing her from giving the order to go fix stuff, rather than chosing to argue her plan with andi, when Bandi held the trump card of simply giving the order to go.
That so-called "trump card" would not have worked. Andi had repeatedly demonstrated lack of respect for Bandana's authority in the past, and was in the act of openly questioning Bandana's judgement. If Bandana had tried to just give Andi an order without arguing about it, Andi would have refused or ignored it, and pressed the argument herself.

So Bandana did not, in fact, have a trump card that she could have used and just chose not to.

Emperor Demonking
2017-06-17, 03:33 PM
That so-called "trump card" would not have worked. Andi had repeatedly demonstrated lack of respect for Bandana's authority in the past, and was in the act of openly questioning Bandana's judgement. If Bandana had tried to just give Andi an order without arguing about it, Andi would have refused or ignored it, and pressed the argument herself.

So Bandana did not, in fact, have a trump card that she could have used and just chose not to.

Refusing a direct order would be mutiny. We see her put her hand over her mouth immediately after her mouth immediately after her accidental/reflexive mutiny. It is only she (and the rest of the crew) has no choice and Bandana is seen to be unconscious that gets into her role as acting captain.

I agree that her first act would be to be stubborn refusal to do it and mutiny. But what makes you think that her third, fourth acts would be the same - thus turning hesitation into mutiny? After mutinying what do you think andi's actions would be? To openly go after Bandi with the wrench?

eggynack
2017-06-17, 03:38 PM
And that is the pointy of a simplified analogy. To find out where the disagreeement actually lies. But you object to that.
And then I listed a ton of the extenuating circumstances which were constituting a lot of difference with your simplified model. And then you just kinda introduced a different model for some reason. A lot of things here actually matters.


If that was her problem, then why not tell her to work on something (without screaming at her?) What was preventing her from giving the order to go fix stuff, rather than chosing to argue her plan with andi, when Bandi held the trump card of simply giving the order to go.
I meant in that specific context, specifically regarding the amount of stuff that should be fixed. A big reason Bandana got mad is because Andi directly insulted her. Again.



That's utterly untrue. "That's your dang job around here ain't it. If you spent half the time patching that you spend complaining, we'd have two whole ships by the end of the pass."

I meant literally the panel right after that. Andi had plenty of capability, after Bandana's one speech bubble, to go do her job.


Leaning over somebody with your face in their face is not the same impairment as being leant over with somebody's face and hand in your face.
That makes zero sense within your analogy. Homelessness was a thing before the yelling. The leaning over and yelling in your analogy wasn't homelessness. The leaning over and yelling was leaning over and yelling. You just kinda added a weird problem external to all of that to just Andi.


So an underling cannot be expected to be given orders. But a captain should assume that unless explicitly asked she is not to give orders? Is not fixing something and instead staying on deck after giving her assesment not implicit. Is not "if you have an issue with what I am doing and would rather I be doing something else" always implicit simply based on their respective roles?

An underling shouldn't expect orders unless they're supposed to do something abnormal. Andi was not expected to do something abnormal. Her job is just to fix things using her best judgement, in a general sense. That's what Bandana wanted. If Andi was confused, she could have asked. The captain can give orders if she wants, but she doesn't have to.


Do you think that Bandana not giving calm orders was a good thing?
No. The ideal would probably be always calm. . But her getting angry wasn't really a bad thing, under the circumstances, either. Certainly didn't justify getting wrenched in any way, shape, or form.


Or simply that Andi not correctly deducing the corrrect thing to do (in the stressful and unusual situation) - even with the captain right there to correct her - is such an unjustifiable thing that it gives Bandana a moral pass to do as she wishes?
Her not "deducing" the correct thing to do, when the correct thing to do is her normal job totally normally, is kinda dumb. Her complaining to the captain about how the job she has isn't getting done is verging towards unjustifiable. Throwing an insult in there? Totally unjustifiable.


That getting in somebody's face and screaming at someone is not a bad thing? A good thing?
Under the circumstances? More or less value neutral.

Emperor Demonking
2017-06-17, 03:47 PM
Her normal job is not to chose what part of the ship necessary for running it not to fix. The panel after her rant does show Bandi giving the orders she should have gave before, but it also show Andi trying not to hit Bandi with a wrench (the panel after that is her failing. After that regreting. After that assesing. After that captaining).

"Under the circumstances? More or less value neutral. "

Good that's part of a big difference of opinion. So what part of the circumstances made Bandanas's verbal assault that lead to her getting auto-wrenched value neutral?

crayzz
2017-06-17, 03:49 PM
No Bandanna made her tenmporarily violently insane by screaming untruths in her face after Andi had seen three people die. She should therefore not screamed untruths violently in her face, and instead calmly gave orders. Any claim that Bandanna did not have time to do that is shown to be false by 1) the fact that she had time to yell truths in her face 2) the fact that she had repeated time to justify her actions.

I would also go on to claim that Andi not showing enough initiative is not justification for Bandanna screaming in her face. And thus regardless of Andi's state Bandanna still acted morally wrong in a way that simple insults are not.

Double standards are really pernicious.

See, there's this thing people do when, in a conflict, they prefer one side over another. They hold the side they don't like to absolutely perfect standards. They go on and on about every flaw they can, about how this or that was suboptimal, or caustic, or rude, or provocative, or whatever. They make sure you know and are confronted with every single possible flaw they can bring to bear.

But when it comes to the side they like, suddenly flaws can be forgiven. There was extenuating circumstances, or they were only human, or they just didn't understand, or it was an accident, or whatever.

Now, was briefly yelling at Andi the best thing to do? Probably not. It was not especially bad, however, except insofar as Andi can be violently unreasonable, leading to the mutiny. And frankly? That's on Andi.

eggynack
2017-06-17, 03:53 PM
Her normal job is not to chose what part of the ship necessary for running it not to fix. The panel after her rant does show Bandi giving the orders she should have gave before, but it also show Andi trying not to hit Bandi with a wrench (the panel after that is her failing. After that regreting. After that assesing. After that captaining).
She's the head engineer. Her normal job includes making some executive decisions about engineering, just like the pilot's job includes not hitting mountains even when he's not being told to.


"Under the circumstances? More or less value neutral. "

Good that's part of a big difference of opinion. So what part of the circumstances made Bandanas's verbal assault that lead to her getting auto-wrenched value neutral?
That Andi literally insulted her just before that, calling Bandana not a real captain because Andi's job isn't getting done? Seems pretty yell worthy, especially when Andi's been doing this kinda thing for awhile.

Draconi Redfir
2017-06-17, 03:53 PM
If you were in a situation where there were many broken machines. Too many broken machines to fix them all. Indeed in your professional opinion too many necessary broken machines to save the day, unless your captain has a good plan. You would simply down with the machines fixing random - or even best judgment - machines rather than going up and telling your captain the situation and discussing/getting orders of what to do? Bearing in mind that in your professional judgment staying down and fixing the most obvious equals death for everybody?

I mean, yeah? 299 broken machines is a whole lot better then 300 broken machines after all. Lets not forget that Andi could have easily sent somebody else to inform the captain "Yo everything is broken, we're working on it but if you have a plan tell us now." While Andi herself (and presumably, any other engineers she has under her) focus on actually doing their jobs. instead Andi elected to not do anything at all and just complain about it.

Back when i was a dishwasher I’d often face this. I’d be hit with too many dishes for me to clean without risk of having piles of dirty dishes collapse onto the floor from their own weight. So i kept cleaning, i cleaned as many as i possibly could as long as i could. The next time someone who worked in the kitchen with me dropped off dishes, I’d ask them to tell the manager that i needed some help. The manager was on the opposite side of the kitchen, and i couldn't stop cleaning without everything getting backed up.

So the other person (who was going at least halfway to the other side of the kitchen anyways) tells the manager that i need help, and the manager finds someone who isn't doing something urgent (like say, someone stocking the freezer with breadsticks) and sends them off to help me by taking dishes I’ve already cleaned and putting them away. it's a small job that's simple to do, but it's necessary, and allows me to focus solely on washing and less on putting away.

Hell, the guy who makes costumes doesn't seem to do much else. if Andi thought there was too much work for her to do, then Bandana could have sent in Costume-guy to do something simple but necessary, such as transport tools, grab spare parts from storage, or even going around and visually identifying problems on the various machines and reporting them to someone who can figure out what's easiest to fix.

Emperor Demonking
2017-06-17, 03:55 PM
Double standards are really pernicious.

See, there's this thing people do when, in a conflict, they prefer one side over another. They hold the side they don't like to absolutely perfect standards. They go on and on about every flaw they can, about how this or that was suboptimal, or caustic, or rude, or provocative, or whatever. They make sure you know and are confronted with every single possible flaw they can bring to bear.

But when it comes to the side they like, suddenly flaws can be forgiven. There was extenuating circumstances, or they were only human, or they just didn't understand, or it was an accident, or whatever.

Now, was briefly yelling at Andi the best thing to do? Probably not. It was not especially bad, however, except insofar as Andi can be violently unreasonable, leading to the mutiny. And frankly? That's on Andi.

Hand on heart. You are going to die. You have seen people die. The person leading you to your death decided to get in your space to scream at you. (Apparently its not Bandi or the Frost Giants that are why you're going to die, its because you lack the proper chirpiness) You can say with 100% certainty that you don't lash out once with your dominant hand? 100%?

Kish
2017-06-17, 04:02 PM
I wonder if "auto-wrenched" means anything other than "viciously assaulted by someone who I will never acknowledge did anything wrong." It's such a weird word, even on its own before I consider the situation it's being applied to.

Emperor Demonking
2017-06-17, 04:03 PM
I mean, yeah? 299 broken machines is a whole lot better then 300 broken machines after all. Lets not forget that Andi could have easily sent somebody else to inform the captain "Yo everything is broken, we're working on it but if you have a plan tell us now." While Andi herself (and presumably, any other engineers she has under her) focus on actually doing their jobs. instead Andi elected to not do anything at all and just complain about it.

Back when i was a dishwasher I’d often face this. I’d be hit with too many dishes for me to clean without risk of having piles of dirty dishes collapse onto the floor from their own weight. So i kept cleaning, i cleaned as many as i possibly could as long as i could. The next time someone who worked in the kitchen with me dropped off dishes, I’d ask them to tell the manager that i needed some help. The manager was on the opposite side of the kitchen, and i couldn't stop cleaning without everything getting backed up.

So the other person (who was going at least halfway to the other side of the kitchen anyways) tells the manager that i need help, and the manager finds someone who isn't doing something urgent (like say, someone stocking the freezer with breadsticks) and sends them off to help me by taking dishes I’ve already cleaned and putting them away. it's a small job that's simple to do, but it's necessary, and allows me to focus solely on washing and less on putting away.

Hell, the guy who makes costumes doesn't seem to do much else. if Andi thought there was too much work for her to do, then Bandana could have sent in Costume-guy to do something simple but necessary, such as transport tools, grab spare parts from storage, or even going around and visually identifying problems on the various machines and reporting them to someone who can figure out what's easiest to fix.

Bandana didn't send costume guy. Are you saying that Andi should have told the captain to send costume huy. Also have we seen anyone working under Andi? (I could be missing it) (Obvioisly she couldn't ask any of the frost giants that after hitting them with a boulder, if they wouldn't mind telling the captain that they were doing too much damage and she needed help.)

"She's the head engineer. Her normal job includes making some executive decisions about engineering, just like the pilot's job includes not hitting mountains even when he's not being told to. "

The pilot did keep on going towards the mountain until Andi explicitly told her what way to turn.

"That Andi literally insulted her just before that, calling Bandana not a real captain because Andi's job isn't getting done? Seems pretty yell worthy, especially when Andi's been doing this kinda thing for awhile. "

So you think that it is fine for a boss to get into an employee's face and scream at her after two insults. That's a big difference between us and not related to our readings of the comic, so I think we have solved the area of our disagreement and we ought to agree to disagree.

Douglas
2017-06-17, 04:06 PM
Refusing a direct order would be mutiny. We see her put her hand over her mouth immediately after her mouth immediately after her accidental/reflexive mutiny. It is only she (and the rest of the crew) has no choice and Bandana is seen to be unconscious that gets into her role as acting captain.

I agree that her first act would be to be stubborn refusal to do it and mutiny. But what makes you think that her third, fourth acts would be the same - thus turning hesitation into mutiny? After mutinying what do you think andi's actions would be? To openly go after Bandi with the wrench?
To put it bluntly, yes, I think Andi's actions after repeated refusal would be to go after Bandana with the wrench. Andi had it fixed in her mind that Bandana was not competent to make critically important decisions, and that Bandana's perceived incompetence was leading them all to certain death. She was absolutely dead set on that interpretation of the situation, and no amount of words, argument, or assertion of authority was going to convince her otherwise.

If Andi were confronted with the rest of the crew seriously threatening to arrest her by force, that might have gotten her to go along with their demands. It would not have convinced her that she was wrong. I doubt anything less strong than the manifestly undeniable proof of her having gotten the Mechane physically stuck would have gotten through to her.

Draconi Redfir
2017-06-17, 04:07 PM
Bandana didn't send costume guy. Are you saying that Andi should have told the captain to send costume huy. Also have we seen anyone working under Andi? (I could be missing it) (Obvioisly she couldn't ask any of the frost giants that after hitting them with a boulder, if they wouldn't mind telling the captain that they were doing too much damage and she needed help.)

I'm saying that if Andi had been doing her job and sent someone else to (quckly) tell Bandana about all the problems, then Bandana could have easily senty costume guy in to help as much as he could. and no i'm not sure if she has any other engineers working under her, but it seems silly to have a "Cheif" engineer without having other engineers. Either way, there were still other crewmen running this way and that that could have helped in some way. Heck, a good chunk of them were either just standing next to Banadana, or hiding below decks like the guy who passed roy a sword.

Douglas
2017-06-17, 04:11 PM
So you think that it is fine for a boss to get into an employee's face and scream at her after two insults. That's a big difference between us and not related to our readings of the comic, so I think we have solved the area of our disagreement and we ought to agree to disagree.
No, I think the area of disagreement is that pretty much everyone in this thread other than you thinks that there's a hell of a lot more than "two insults" leading up to the angry hyperbolic scream.

crayzz
2017-06-17, 04:11 PM
Hand on heart. You are going to die. You have seen people die. The person leading you to your death decided to get in your space to scream at you. (Apparently its not Bandi or the Frost Giants that are why you're going to die, its because you lack the proper chirpiness) You can say with 100% certainty that you don't lash out once with your dominant hand? 100%?

Hand on heart. You're going to die. You have seen people die. The person who could be fixing important equipment you really depend on has spent the past few minutes whining instead of doing her job. You can say with 100% certainty that you don't yell at her briefly? 100%?

This is exactly what I meant. You're holding Bandana to a perfect standard, and faulting her for falling short by a frankly minor amount. You hold Andi to the lightest standards possible, trying to dismiss criticism of an act that was dangerous, destructive, and stupid.

I find the Andi hatred on this board more than a little sanctimonious, but there is no doubt that what she did was flat out wrong.

Emperor Demonking
2017-06-17, 04:17 PM
I'm saying that if Andi had been doing her job and sent someone else to (quckly) tell Bandana about all the problems, then Bandana could have easily senty costume guy in to help as much as he could. and no i'm not sure if she has any other engineers working under her, but it seems silly to have a "Cheif" engineer without having other engineers. Either way, there were still other crewmen running this way and that that could have helped in some way. Heck, a good chunk of them were either just standing next to Banadana, or hiding below decks like the guy who passed roy a sword.

Standing next to Bandana as in on the deck - so she should go up next to Bandi to tell somebody to tell Bandi that they had taken too much damage? - or below? I'm not finding anything suggesting below.

Making someone cheif engineer based on being experiencve is such sensible business regardless of the existance of other engineers, and one point against their being any other engineer is Andi's notable possessiveness over the engine (which is bad of her).

It is possible that she ought to have requisitioned somebody doing another task to report to Bandi on her behalf from the begining. But I think it is reasonable that she didn't want the delay that such a thing would bring.

Emperor Demonking
2017-06-17, 04:29 PM
Hand on heart. You're going to die. You have seen people die. The person who could be fixing important equipment you really depend on has spent the past few minutes whining instead of doing her job. You can say with 100% certainty that you don't yell at her briefly? 100%?

This is exactly what I meant. You're holding Bandana to a perfect standard, and faulting her for falling short by a frankly minor amount. You hold Andi to the lightest standards possible, trying to dismiss criticism of an act that was dangerous, destructive, and stupid.

I find the Andi hatred on this board more than a little sanctimonious, but there is no doubt that what she did was flat out wrong.

I can 100% say that I'd tell her to go away rather than an angry rant. I don't have the breath for that anyway.


No, I think the area of disagreement is that pretty much everyone in this thread other than you thinks that there's a hell of a lot more than "two insults" leading up to the angry hyperbolic scream.

Super! So what are they?


To put it bluntly, yes, I think Andi's actions after repeated refusal would be to go after Bandana with the wrench. Andi had it fixed in her mind that Bandana was not competent to make critically important decisions, and that Bandana's perceived incompetence was leading them all to certain death. She was absolutely dead set on that interpretation of the situation, and no amount of words, argument, or assertion of authority was going to convince her otherwise.

If Andi were confronted with the rest of the crew seriously threatening to arrest her by force, that might have gotten her to go along with their demands. It would not have convinced her that she was wrong. I doubt anything less strong than the manifestly undeniable proof of her having gotten the Mechane physically stuck would have gotten through to her.

Why is getting through to her so important? The comic shows her regreting her accidental/reflexive mutiny immediately, or at the very least showing shock at what she had done. Cinsidering that I don't think the comic suppoerts the idea that she would actively mutiny. Indeed after her accidental mutiny, once Bandi is free with the crew behind her - as in the situation before the a/r m mutiny save that Andi is now a guilty woman - she immediately surrenders. That also suggests that she would not have deliberately betrayed the ship by mutinying.

Howeverm, let us say she does mutiny. The crew tells her mutinying is bad. She unmutinies and goes down. Why is that so bad? Why not at least give her the opportunity to comply with orders by giving her orders to comply with?

Lacuna Caster
2017-06-17, 04:44 PM
Honestly, I have to give Emperor Demonking some props for persistence.

Ah, this reminds me of the ancient times, when Our Lady Of Chaos reigned supreme. I salute thee.

Kish
2017-06-17, 04:50 PM
No, I think the area of disagreement is that pretty much everyone in this thread other than you thinks that there's a hell of a lot more than "two insults" leading up to the angry hyperbolic scream.
Indeed. I would say the area of disagreement is as expansive as "whether all context that would point to Andi being in the wrong, which is all of it, should be swept under the rug and denied."

Emperor Demonking
2017-06-17, 05:01 PM
Indeed. I would say the area of disagreement is as expansive as "whether all context that would point to Andi being in the wrong, which is all of it, should be swept under the rug and denied."

It is very possible that the context before the screaming would point to Andi being the bad guy, but then Bandi decided to abuse her power to scream and get in the face of an annoyance. Therefore the only proper question of the context is did Andi do it first? Regarless of how vague or snarky you want to be, Andi simply did not.

Ergo regardless of her two insults and general lack of deference she is not to blame for her captain screaming at her. Particularly, since her captain made no active effort to get Andi to leave and in fact consistently engaged with her.

And when you have seen people die are going to die yourself and the person to blame has chosen to scream in your face. One reflexive blow with your dominant is not an inhuman situation in such a stressful situation. A blow regretted\shocked immediately.

Cizak
2017-06-17, 05:06 PM
We see her put her hand over her mouth immediately after her mouth immediately after her accidental/reflexive mutiny.

So we've gone from "most people would decide to comit physical assault" to "physical assault is just a reflex". I mean, not that I expected anything less at this point, but it's still really funny.


I can 100% say that I'd tell her to go away rather than an angry rant. I don't have the breath for that anyway.

"Can anyone of you honestly say 100% that you would not commit physical assault after getting yelled at? I mean, truly, would you not actually try to bash someone's brains in if given the chance? Can you actually say that you wouldn't use your dominant hand, your dominant hand mind you, to use a heavy tool to possibly split someone's head open? Can any of you truly say that?"

"I dunno, if someone was continously insulting you instead of doing their job, can you say 100% that you wouldn't raise your voice in frustration?"

"Oh yes, absolutely."

Again, not expecting anything else. Just really funny.

Emperor Demonking
2017-06-17, 05:12 PM
So we've gone from "most people would decide to comit physical assault" to "physical assault is just a reflex". I mean, not that I expected anything less at this point, but it's still really funny.


When did I make that first claim?





"Can anyone of you honestly say 100% that you would not commit physical assault after getting yelled at? I mean, truly, would you not actually try to bash someone's brains in if given the chance? Can you actually say that you wouldn't use your dominant hand, your dominant hand mind you, to use a heavy tool to possibly split someone's head open? Can any of you truly say that?"

"I dunno, if someone was continously insulting you instead of doing their job, can you say 100% that you wouldn't raise your voice in frustration?"

"Oh yes, absolutely."

Again, not expecting anything else. Just really funny.

You're ignoring the corpses and frost giants. That's moronic. Your description of ther acts is obviously also ridiculous. (Bandi did not simply "raise her voice" and describing Andi as "trying to bash someone's brains in if given the chance" is absurd.)

Draconi Redfir
2017-06-17, 05:21 PM
Standing next to Bandana as in on the deck - so she should go up next to Bandi to tell somebody to tell Bandi that they had taken too much damage? - or below? I'm not finding anything suggesting below.

If Andi is near Bandana: "Yo Bandi! Stuff's flupped! Need some help here!"

If andi is not near Bandana: "Yo! Someone! Stuff's Flupped! Tell the brat i need help down here!"

Talking is a free action, she could still and should have still been repairing stuff as she talked.


It is possible that she ought to have requisitioned somebody doing another task to report to Bandi on her behalf from the begining. But I think it is reasonable that she didn't want the delay that such a thing would bring.

as opposed to the delay not doing anything productive at all would bring?

Kish
2017-06-17, 05:33 PM
Yeah, this is yet more stuff from a webcomic that isn't on this site. She did not want to "report" without "delay." She wanted to browbeat Bandana until she quit acting like she thought she was in charge and started following Andi's orders like a good subordinate. To all indications no one was making any effort to fix anything, though there were things that needed to be fixed, and the reason why no one was trying to make repairs was not that Andi was doing something more important, except in Andi's mind, in which the most important thing was, indeed and exactly, "Make that little brat respect mah authoritaah!"

Emperor Demonking
2017-06-17, 05:34 PM
If Andi is near Bandana: "Yo Bandi! Stuff's flupped! Need some help here!"

If andi is not near Bandana: "Yo! Someone! Stuff's Flupped! Tell the brat i need help down here!"

Is that not suggesting that 'some help' would be sufficient when there's no reason to assume that's true? is that not essentially what Andi did "Bandana, we've got damage all over the ship! We need to turn it around' only without the dishonesty of suggesting that she only needed a little help.



Talking is a free action, she could still and should have still been repairing stuff as she talked.



What was broken near her that she should have been repairing as she talked. Or are you refering to hoping somebody runs pass whatever she if repairing and grabbing their attention as they rush by and she continues to repair?

Emperor Demonking
2017-06-17, 05:37 PM
Yeah, this is yet more stuff from a webcomic that isn't on this site. She did not want to "report" without "delay." She wanted to browbeat Bandana until she quit acting like she thought she was in charge and started following Andi's orders like a good subordinate. To all indications no one was making any effort to fix anything, though there were things that needed to be fixed, and the reason why no one was trying to make repairs was not that Andi was doing something more important, except in Andi's mind, in which the most important thing was, indeed and exactly, "Make that little brat respect mah authoritaah!"

What makes you think that she came up on deck to browbeat Bandi? In the second panel of 55 she is seen running to Bandi. Why do that if time isn't of the essense and that she intends to engage in a lengthy browbeating?

Draconi Redfir
2017-06-17, 05:41 PM
Super! So what are they?

"This is insane, they're going knock us out of the sky" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1055.html) (In response to Bandi not turnning around)

"You're precious adventurers are leaving us behind" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1055.html)

"Stubborn little brat, listen to me" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1062.html)

"She's just a kid" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1064.html)

"Pigheadded" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1066.html)

But lets rewind back to before the wrench incident.

"Taking orders from a kid" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0961.html)

"Hey! We'd be sitting at the bottom of the sea!" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0965.html)

"Grubby little paws" "Permission to keep my job" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0988.html)

"Not everyone wants to play the hero like you do" "I can't wait until the captain gets back" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1028.html)

Dude, Andi has been disrespecting Bandanna from day one,

Draconi Redfir
2017-06-17, 05:45 PM
Is that not suggesting that 'some help' would be sufficient when there's no reason to assume that's true? is that not essentially what Andi did "Bandana, we've got damage all over the ship! We need to turn it around' only without the dishonesty of suggesting that she only needed a little help.

Asking for "some help" would still be a hell of a lot better then doing nothing. If you're forced to eat ten thousand cookies, you're still going to make more progress by getting one guy to eat them with you then you are by eatting none at all.




What was broken near her that she should have been repairing as she talked. Or are you refering to hoping somebody runs pass whatever she if repairing and grabbing their attention as they rush by and she continues to repair?

The engines she was complaining about, the propellers she was complaining about, the fuel she was complaining about...

And yeah? the only place people weren't at was on the main deck with the giants. shouldn't be too hard to get the attention of someone who's just hiding.

Emperor Demonking
2017-06-17, 05:52 PM
"This is insane, they're going knock us out of the sky" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1055.html) (In response to Bandi not turnning around)

"You're precious adventurers are leaving us behind" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1055.html)

"Stubborn little brat, listen to me" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1062.html)

"She's just a kid" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1064.html)

"Pigheadded" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1066.html)

But lets rewind back to before the wrench incident.

"Taking orders from a kid" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0961.html)

"Hey! We'd be sitting at the bottom of the sea!" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0965.html)

"Grubby little paws" "Permission to keep my job" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0988.html)

"Not everyone wants to play the hero like you do" "I can't wait until the captain gets back" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1028.html)

Dude, Andi has been disrespecting Bandanna from day one,

So you think those justify screaming and getting into her face. I disagree.

Especially considering that some of that 'disrespect' is simply taking her fair credit for things that she had done, one was not when she (or indeed any of the crew) were in earshot, and the others were responded to with greater rudeness ("Simmer down", "knickers in a twist"; I'm aware that some take the view that the employer should treat the employees as he pleases, and it is the employee who needs to show all politeness. My view is that it is the powerful who ought to be held to greater accountability with how they treat disgruntled employees. If you disagree then say so, as that might be one off our key areas of disagreement.)


Edit:

Asking for "some help" would still be a hell of a lot better then doing nothing. If you're forced to eat ten thousand cookies, you're still going to make more progress by getting one guy to eat them with you then you are by eatting none at all.

If you are tasked with an impossible task and its impossible with two then pulling a comerade off something useful is far from being a gain. Or are you saying that Andi should have told Bandi to tell people doing mothing to do something useful? Are you think Andi was always the captain>




The engines she was complaining about, the propellers she was complaining about, the fuel she was complaining about...[/quote[

None of those were on the deck which is the point you were making.

[quote]

And yeah? the only place people weren't at was on the main deck with the giants. shouldn't be too hard to get the attention of someone who's just hiding.

If they're hiding then you're relying on them hiding where she's repairing. Also, I don't think they were hiding when she chose to run on deck to tell Bandi the situation.

Draconi Redfir
2017-06-17, 05:57 PM
So you think those justify screaming and getting into her face. I disagree.

You're right, it doesn't justify yelling and getting into her face.

it's the fact that Andi was not doing her job, constantly yelling and complaining at Bandi, and actively preventing Bandi from doing HER job by forcing Bandi to put time and effort into dealing with Andi that justify shouting at her.


I'm aware that some take the view that the employer should treat the employees as he pleases, and it is the employee who needs to show all politeness. My view is that it is the powerful who ought to be held to greater accountability with how they treat disgruntled employees. If you disagree then say so, as that might be one off our key areas of disagreement.)

If you will notice however, Bandanna never once shows disrespect or agression towards Andi unless treated with such disrespect or agression first. You're again right, the employer should not treat the employees as he pleases. If the employees step out of line and disrepest the employer however, then the employer has every right to punish them in turn. You wouldn't shout at your boss and call him an idiot when all he's doing is his job would you? Why not? Because you might get fired?

Well guess what Andi is doing...

Edit:


If you are tasked with an impossible task and its impossible with two then pulling a comerade off something useful is far from being a gain. Or are you saying that Andi should have told Bandi to tell people doing mothing to do something useful? Are you think Andi was always the captain>

I'm saying Andi should have been doing her job. You'd be surprised what a little effort can get you. Even if your engine is getting broken every ten minutes, if you can fix it in five minutes, then congradulations, you have five minutes of moving forwards that you didn't have before.


None of those were on the deck which is the point you were making.

Then Andi should not have been on deck which is also the point i am making. she SHOULD have been doing her job


If they're hiding then you're relying on them hiding where she's repairing. Also, I don't think they were hiding when she chose to run on deck to tell Bandi the situation.

If you are in room A, and A is connected to B, and B connected to C, Will people in room C still hear you if you shout for them?

Awnser: Yes.

hamishspence
2017-06-17, 05:59 PM
We've been shown that Andi's been bearing a grudge against Bandana from actions Bandana committed when she was a nine year old child - it's not an ordinary case of disgruntlement we're dealing with here.

Kish
2017-06-17, 06:05 PM
No, what Andi did when she said "we need to turn it around!" was try to push Bandana out of her job--being the captain--and give an order which was, and has been proven, a catastrophically bad one. Attempting to frame it as "Employers should treat their employees with respect!" is a blatant power play; Andi treated Bandana with contempt and explicitly expressed contempt for her ever since she was put in charge, while Bandana even now has done nothing comparable back. No one is obligated to refrain from raising their voice when someone yells at them, "You stubborn little brat, why won't you ever just do what I tell you to do?!?"

"We've got damage all over the ship" was not something Bandana was unaware of. Nor was anything Andi said the whole time. She wasn't on the bridge to give Bandana vital information; she was there to browbeat Bandana into dealing with the giants in the (entirely stupid, suicidal, and globally suicidal) way Andi wanted to deal with them.

Lacuna Caster
2017-06-17, 06:07 PM
I'm truly impressed by this level of dedication.

Emperor Demonking
2017-06-17, 06:08 PM
You're right, it doesn't justify yelling and getting into her face.

it's the fact that Andi was not doing her job, constantly yelling and complaining at Bandi, and actively preventing Bandi from doing HER job by forcing Bandi to put time and effort into dealing with Andi that justify shouting at her.

Then why post the "disrespect" if you don't think its relevant?

How did Andi "force" Bandi to not do her job. Was she in her face, leaning over her, screaming at her in order to activate fight or flight( the looming ove her as rantedr eliminating flight). Or did she use her evil Andi mind-control powers to force Bandi to not give her any orders and instead respond to her points (to which Andi then, naturally, also responded to.) I'm unsure what power you think Andi has that she could force Bandi to do as Andi willed.





If you will notice however, Bandanna never once shows disrespect or agression towards Andi unless treated with such disrespect or agression first. You're again right, the employer should not treat the employees as he pleases. If the employees step out of line and disrepest the employer however, then the employer has every right to punish them in turn. You wouldn't shout at your boss and call him an idiot when all he's doing is his job would you? Why not? Because you might get fired?

Well guess what Andi is doing...

Let us say that, yes even before going to the Godsmoot Andi committed firing offences. OK. But Andi didn't fire her. She kept her on the ship. Then when they were in disaster mode she decided to scream and get in Andi's face.

Out of curiosity, why did you say "Why not? Because you might get fired?" rather than "Why not? Because your boss might get right up to your face and scream at you?" is it because regardless of how insulting she was or her lack/passive-known-to-Andi-excess* agency, nothing she did justified Andi's first resort of screaming in her face?

*I think its lack, I know at least one person thinks it excess

Kish
2017-06-17, 06:11 PM
I'm truly impressed by this level of dedication.
Me too! It's amusing, but I'll be surprised if the mods don't shut it down within a few pages now.

Emperor Demonking
2017-06-17, 06:12 PM
No, what Andi did when she said "we need to turn it around!" was try to push Bandana out of her job--being the captain--and give an order which was, and has been proven, a catastrophically bad one. Attempting to frame it as "Employers should treat their employees with respect!" is a blatant power play; Andi treated Bandana with contempt and explicitly expressed contempt for her ever since she was put in charge, while Bandana even now has done nothing comparable back. No one is obligated to refrain from raising their voice when someone yells at them, "You stubborn little brat, why won't you ever just do what I tell you to do?!?"

May I ask why you did not feel it worth answering the "Why did Andi run on deck if she intended a lengthy browbeating" point.

Claiming that all Bandi did was raise her voice is an outright lie.

Hamish: are you saying that if someone bears a grudge on you since you were nine years old then that justifies getting in their face and screaming at them? Is that a general: Andi is of low moral character and thus anything goes?

Ruck
2017-06-17, 06:14 PM
No Bandanna made her tenmporarily violently insane by screaming untruths in her face after Andi had seen three people die.
I have to say, I'm impressed by your ability to blame Bandana for literally everything Andi does, including assaulting Bandana and harboring a grudge that Bandana was named captain based on years of Andi thinking herself superior to her.


So you think those justify screaming and getting into her face. I disagree.
You think a constant torrent of disrespect doesn't merit what you inaccurately categorize as "screaming and getting into her face," but one moment of what you inaccurately categorize as "screaming and getting into her face" merits serious, potentially lethal assault?

As far as I can tell, your argument is couched in both an understanding of events that writes off any actual events in the comic that contradict your position, and an understanding of human behavior and cause and effect that is not only exactly backwards, but manages to both a)equate giving orders to assault and b)hold the victim of assault responsible for being assaulted.

It's a really impressive string of justifications you've put together here, I do admit.

crayzz
2017-06-17, 06:19 PM
nothing she did justified Andi's first resort of screaming in her face?

I mean, as far as I'm concerned, choosing to be an annoying pain rather than useful in the middle of combat deserves a good lambasting.

But again, you have a double standard going. Bandana's behaviour must be justified. Andi's behaviour need only be understandable on some level.

So, to put everything on an even playing field: is assaulting your commanding officer in the middle of combat because they briefly yelled at you justified? I don't care that Andi might have been reasonably upset at the death of her comrades. I don't care that we're apparently operating on the belief that chief engineers need to be babysat. Was the assault morally justified?

hamishspence
2017-06-17, 06:20 PM
are you saying that if someone bears a grudge on you since you were nine years old then that justifies getting in their face and screaming at them? Is that a general: Andi is of low moral character and thus anything goes?

I'm saying that because of Andi's grudge, we can't say that Andi's wrench attack was a "normal" or "reasonable" response - Andi might not have launched such an attack, all other things being equal, on someone she didn't bear a grudge against. Nor, for that matter, might she have neglected her duties as thoroughly.

Emperor Demonking
2017-06-17, 06:26 PM
I have to say, I'm impressed by your ability to blame Bandana for literally everything Andi does, including assaulting Bandana and harboring a grudge that Bandana was named captain based on years of Andi thinking herself superior to her.


Where did I blane Bandi for andi having harbor[ed] a grudge that Bandana was named captain based on years of Andi thinking herself superior to her?


You think a constant torrent of disrespect doesn't merit what you inaccurately categorize as "screaming and getting into her face,"

How would you characterise it.


but one moment of what you inaccurately categorize as "screaming and getting into her face" merits serious, potentially lethal assault?

I never said that it merited it. However, when you choose to be aggressive and physically confrontational - forcing someone to lean back is being phusucally confrontational - I'm understanding if the response is one of one automatic strike.


As far as I can tell, your argument is couched in both an understanding of events that writes off any actual events in the comic that contradict your position, and an understanding of human behavior and cause and effect that is not only exactly backwards, but manages to both a)equate giving orders to assault and b)hold the victim of assault responsible for being assaulted.
What relevant events am I ignoring? I'm not ignoring the disrespect, grudge, insults l'm saying that none of those justify Bandi's behaviour.

Calling Bandi's actions as simply 'giving orders' is simply untrue. I seriously do not know how you can look at the panel in question and think that's an accurate summary. Are you ignoring the entire second- and larger - baloon in which there's nothing approaching an order. Their respective stances? And the bold font?

hamishspence
2017-06-17, 06:29 PM
Compared to the average Drill Sergeant Nasty, I wouldn't say Bandana's body language is out of the ordinary:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DrillSergeantNasty

Kish
2017-06-17, 06:30 PM
Is that a general: Andi is of low moral character and thus anything goes?
In light of your efforts to blame something on Bandana, that post shows chutzpah, to be sure.Q2W*-, ADD MY CATS, and they turn my caps lock on.

Jaxzan Proditor
2017-06-17, 06:31 PM
You think a constant torrent of disrespect doesn't merit what you inaccurately categorize as "screaming and getting into her face," but one moment of what you inaccurately categorize as "screaming and getting into her face" merits serious, potentially lethal assault?

This is the most ridiculous part to me. Even if we accept that Bandana shouting at Andi was over the line, it's a absurd stretch to say that it immediately makes what Andi does afterward understandable. And the thing is, not only is Bandana under the exact same stressors as Andi, and notably does not assault her, but also Bandana, as well as everyone else in this thread, knows that Andi is doing this not out of concern for the crew, but deliberately to challenge Bandana.

Emperor Demonking
2017-06-17, 06:34 PM
I mean, as far as I'm concerned, choosing to be an annoying pain rather than useful in the middle of combat deserves a good lambasting.

But again, you have a double standard going. Bandana's behaviour must be justified. Andi's behaviour need only be understandable on some level.

So, to put everything on an even playing field: is assaulting your commanding officer in the middle of combat because they briefly yelled at you justified? I don't care that Andi might have been reasonably upset at the death of her comrades. I don't care that we're apparently operating on the belief that chief engineers need to be babysat. Was the assault morally justified?


Reflex and the general temporary insanty is morally neutral. If Bandi's choice not to give Andi orders, to engage with her, and finally scream at Andi were not justifiable then she holds all moral blame for the consequences of the auto-wrench.

But so that I can't be accused of dodging the question. Choosing to assault your commanding officer in the middle of combat because they briefly yelled at you is not justified. Good thing nobody did that then. (The panel after the auto-wrench shows at the very least shock at what her hand had done).

Plus, I'm not claiming that Bandi's choices weren't understandable. I just think that they were morally wrong.

hamishspence
2017-06-17, 06:44 PM
If Bandi's choice not to give Andi orders, to engage with her, and finally scream at Andi were not justifiable then she holds all moral blame for the consequences of the auto-wrench.

One doing something possibly slightly morally wrong - doesn't mean that one bears all the responsibility for the retaliation - especially with the retaliation is disproportionate.

Harsh words - even "uncalled for" ones - don't justify extreme violence as retaliation.

Bandana cannot - "hold all moral blame for the consequences of the wrench attack" - no amount of criticism of Bandana's words can absolve Andi.


(The panel after the auto-wrench shows at the very least shock at what her hand had done).
"Shock at what she herself had done" doesn't mean she didn't choose to make the attack - only that Andi didn't fully comprehend herself and her own personality.

Emperor Demonking
2017-06-17, 06:50 PM
Compared to the average Drill Sergeant Nasty, I wouldn't say Bandana's body language is out of the ordinary:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DrillSergeantNasty

I'm not going to follow a TV Tropes link - far too dangerous I'll never get out - is 'nasty' a term of endearment?


This is the most ridiculous part to me. Even if we accept that Bandana shouting at Andi was over the line, it's a absurd stretch to say that it immediately makes what Andi does afterward understandable. And the thing is, not only is Bandana under the exact same stressors as Andi, and notably does not assault her, but also Bandana, as well as everyone else in this thread, knows that Andi is doing this not out of concern for the crew, but deliberately to challenge Bandana.

The immediate stressor that leads to the wrenching is the leabing over person screaming at her in her face. When does this happen to Bandi? Notably, Andi does not do anything approaching what Bandi did until Bandi does it. If her motives for striking Bandi was to 'deliberately to challenge Bandana' then why did it take place so close after the screaming of Bandi? Coinicidence?


One doing something morally wrong - doesn't mean that one bears all the responsibility for the retaliation - especially with the retaliation is disproportionate.

Harsh words - even "uncalled for" ones - don't justify extreme violence as retaliation.

Bandana cannot - "hold all moral blame for the consequences of the wrench attack" - no amount of criticism of Bandana's words can absolve Andi.


"Shock at what she herself had done" doesn't mean she didn't choose to make the attack - only that Andi didn't fully comprehend herself and her own personality.

Its rude to put things in quotations that have never been said, particularly when you are not making that obvious.

May I ask why you are ignoring Bandi's getting in Andi's space and forcing her to lean back? It wasn't only words. It was a physical confrontation. Andi was stunned and then did one strike back. That hardly seems disporportionate.

Kish
2017-06-17, 06:50 PM
That would be true, were "the auto-wrench" not itself such a ludicrous distortion of what happened.

However, she bears no responsibility for Andi's choice to viciously assault her. All the responsibility for that lies with the assaulter, Andi. And since that event, unlike "the auto-wrench" is in the comic, that's what matters. Apparently not to your variant version of the Order of the Stick comic, but that's not important as it is not on this website and, I'm afraid, does not seem likely to be very good.

hamishspence
2017-06-17, 06:52 PM
May I ask why you are ignoring Bandi's getting in Andi's space and forcing her to lean back?

Because it's standard operating procedure when it comes to an insubordinate underling, in a lot of fiction.

goodpeople25
2017-06-17, 06:53 PM
This is the most ridiculous part to me. Even if we accept that Bandana shouting at Andi was over the line, it's a absurd stretch to say that it immediately makes what Andi does afterward understandable. And the thing is, not only is Bandana under the exact same stressors as Andi, and notably does not assault her, but also Bandana, as well as everyone else in this thread, knows that Andi is doing this not out of concern for the crew, but deliberately to challenge Bandana.
No we already established (by default of no one to my knowledge touching upon this piece of unquestionable logic for some unknowable reason) that because of Andi running in panel 2 of 55 that she came to Bandi over something urgent thus a deliberate challenge or browbeating for thinking she's captain can't be true. Or something like that anyway.

Know mine thinging biran think knot employing >.
*reboots brain. You know I may have found the reason.

Emperor Demonking
2017-06-17, 06:55 PM
That would be true, were "the auto-wrench" not itself such a ludicrous distortion of what happened.

However, she bears no responsibility for Andi's choice to viciously assault her. All the responsibility for that lies with the assaulter, Andi. And since that event, unlike "the auto-wrench" is in the comic, that's what matters. Apparently not to your variant version of the Order of the Stick comic, but that's not important as it is not on this website and, I'm afraid, does not seem likely to be very good.

When did she choose to attack Bandi? We are never off Andi between the two acts. In one panel she is cowering. Not then. In the next she is obviously to angry to make any choices - stunned by fury. In the next Bandi has been struck. If it was not simple reaction to the confrontation then when was the choice made?

Vinyadan
2017-06-17, 06:57 PM
I think that using employer - employee relation to understand the situation of a ship doesn't really function. The captain - sailor situation is much closer to a military one. The captain is responsible for everyone's safety, and needs everyone to do his duty for everyone to be safe. This is why IRL mutiny has some extreme punishments (death in the US, long time prison in other countries, longer for the leader of the mutiny): the mutineer is jeopardizing the safety of everyone on the ship, possibly on extreme distances from any help.

Mutiny is an enormous crime from this point of view. Assaulting a superior officer also is, although it receives a slightly milder punishment in times of peace (like, you won't be killed, everything else is on the table).

At the same time, the captain also is under scrutiny. A good leader keeps his cool, clearly explains priorities, provides perspective, and works on solving problems BEFORE they explode. The Andi situation should have been clear from the start. What Bandana has shown is that she knows more about the general functioning of the ship than the crew members. That makes her a decent first mate, but not a good captain. And the fact that she saw things in a "give orders" (captain) vs "receive orders" (everyone else) perspective was, in retrospective, not very promising, because there is much more in command than giving orders. So she has a lot of room to grow. (IRL a captain could be sent home and lose any chance to actively command if his performance was subpar, but here Bandana doesn't really have any superiors beside Julio, so I guess that doesn't count).

I thought that the reasons for Andi's actions were different priorities than Bandana and the death of crewmates and danger for everyone else. The story decided to go another, anticlimactic way. I found it to be underwhelming, but that's what's written, if it isn't just Bandana's better charisma speaking. Unless there are unexpected developments, that's it.

Emperor Demonking
2017-06-17, 07:02 PM
No we already established (by default of no one to my knowledge touching upon this piece of unquestionable logic for some unknowable reason) that because of Andi running in panel 2 of 55 that she came to Bandi over something urgent thus a deliberate challenge or browbeating for thinking she's captain can't be true. Or something like that anyway.

Know mine thinging biran think knot employed >.
*reboots brain. You know I may have found the reason.

If "she came to Bandi over something urgent" (your words) and 'She did not want to "report" without "delay."' (Kish's words) then what was the urgent thing that she wished to do? Or are we to assume that she was running merely because The Giant thought she could do with some excercise?

crayzz
2017-06-17, 07:03 PM
Note that, even by EDs own description if not their characterization, the assault was not reflexive (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1062.html). Andi is yelled at, is angry for a moment, and assaults her commanding officer. She had time to consider her actions.


In the next she is obviously to angry to make any choices - stunned by fury.

The word "obviously" is doing all the rhetorical work here. It's a cop out.

Ruck
2017-06-17, 07:06 PM
Where did I blane Bandi for andi having harbor[ed] a grudge that Bandana was named captain based on years of Andi thinking herself superior to her?
Every time you excuse Andi's assault of Bandana as something she deserved or provoked out of Andi, and not a product of Andi's grudge and lack of respect for Bandana building to the point where she becomes physically violent, you are doing that.


What relevant events am I ignoring? I'm not ignoring the disrespect, grudge, insults l'm saying that none of those justify Bandi's behaviour.

Every time you say things like this:


Reflex and the general temporary insanty is morally neutral.

You are ignoring the history that led to this behavior. Every time you say something like "auto-wrench," you are stripping Andi's responsibility of her own actions away, and placing more blame on Bandana for Andi's actions, than on Andi for her own actions. Every time you characterize Bandana "getting in Andi's face" as justifying Andi's assault, you are ignoring that Andi has been constantly challenging Bandana's leadership and being insubordinate, and ignoring how that plays into her choice (and it IS a choice, despite your desire to write it off as some involuntary reflex Andi has no control over) to assault Bandana.


When did she choose to attack Bandi?

Panels 7 and 8, #1062.

Kish
2017-06-17, 07:09 PM
Indeed, if you were actually, seriously arguing that Andi suffers from psychotic breaks, you should be arguing that she ought to be restrained until she can get treatment, lest she assault more of her supposed allies. Yet you're not suggesting that, quite the contrary. So apparently, in your version of events, she has an extremely selective level of madness: crazy enough that her assault gets a silly term you made up rather than the most basic-level acknowledgement that hey she assaulted someone with a wrench, yet sane enough that it makes sense to let her go right back to duty as if she was someone who recognizes that she made a bad choice and won't make it again.

oppyu
2017-06-17, 07:11 PM
Just to be clear, this thread once was about A True Fan and their thoughts on everything sucking, right?

Andi was consistently disrespectful and insubordinate to Bandana due to issues accepting her leadership, Andi brained Bandana with a wrench and took over command of the ship not out of malice but in a moment of extreme stress, Andi proceeded to be a worse captain than Bandana. Regardless of her or Bandana's quality as captain, Andi probably shouldn't have attacked Bandana from behind with a wrench. But she isn't really a bad person, she just had an axe to grind with Bandana before everything went wrong, and freaked out when everything did go wrong and people started dying violent deaths. I thought this was pretty clearly established, but shrug.

Emperor Demonking
2017-06-17, 07:18 PM
Note that, even by EDs own description if not their characterization, the assault was not reflexive (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1062.html). Andi is yelled at, is angry for a moment, and assaults her commanding officer. She had time to consider her actions.



Yes, she had time but the she was not in the emotional state.


The word "obviously" is doing all the rhetorical work here. It's a cop out.

OK.
In the next she is too angry to make any choices - stunned by fury.


Every time you excuse Andi's assault of Bandana as something she deserved or provoked out of Andi, and not a product of Andi's grudge and lack of respect for Bandana building to the point where she becomes physically violent, you are doing that.

If the auto-wrench was not in reaction to the physical confrontation. Then how come it occured a mere two panels after?

Consider, in how many panels could the reflex story possibly hold true. A handful. How many, could the escalating her general disrespect story hold true. Absolutely loads. And yet the assault did come in one of those those in the handful. Does that not at least suggest reason to pause for thought?

And also, when her comment to Roy a hundred comics back is bought up. Is that not trying to blame Andi for Bandi's string of choices?

Edit:





Indeed, if you were actually, seriously arguing that Andi suffers from psychotic breaks, you should be arguing that she ought to be restrained until she can get treatment, lest she assault more of her supposed allies. Yet you're not suggesting that, quite the contrary. So apparently, in your version of events, she has an extremely selective level of madness: crazy enough that her assault gets a silly term you made up rather than the most basic-level acknowledgement that hey she assaulted someone with a wrench, yet sane enough that it makes sense to let her go right back to duty as if she was someone who recognizes that she made a bad choice and won't make it again.



Yyes, a mental state quite well recognised by the courts. It exists. The Giant's placement of events suggests that that is what occured. (He even made clear a particular grudge that Andi harbored against Bandi which conflicts with your 'general psyco' theory that you think I should hold.)

Jaxzan Proditor
2017-06-17, 07:19 PM
The immediate stressor that leads to the wrenching is the leabing over person screaming at her in her face. When does this happen to Bandi? Notably, Andi does not do anything approaching what Bandi did until Bandi does it. If her motives for striking Bandi was to 'deliberately to challenge Bandana' then why did it take place so close after the screaming of Bandi? Coinicidence?

The immeadiate stressors are the events ongoing in the ship, i.e. the deaths of several pirates and your stated reason for Andi's current state. And, sure, Andi doesn't scream at Bandana, but neither does Bandana ever brain Andi with a metal tool, so I think it's pretty clear neither of them are trying to match the other in actions. And to be clear, I think it is absolutely likely and reasonable (though not necessarily right*) for Bandana's reaction to Andi's disdain to be to shout at her, and that it is entirely unreasonable for the follow up reaction to be a physical assault. Her outright motive for striking Bandana is probably rage, something I hold strongly against her, but her motive for talking to her in the first place (and the underlying motive of all her actions) is almost certainly a misplaced belief that Bandana should not be captain.

*if you wanted to solely make the argument that Bandana shouldn't have reacted this way and highlight of how she can improve as a captain, I might even agree, but in making the claim that not only are what she and Andi did on the same level morally, but also that what Bandana did in anyway automatically resulted in what Andi did you bring this argument way past whether or not what Bandana did was "right".

TeCoolMage
2017-06-17, 07:23 PM
I think the main problem here is we're trying to assign objective morality to the otherwise arbitrary and subjective order of command.

So what if Andi is the engineer and Bandana is the captain? Does that make Andi less of a person because of her status? Does it make Bandana more important in a moral sense? Of course not. Any sort of 'Oh what if you attacked an officer' argument makes no sense, it is equally moral or immoral as some random stranger attacking another stranger, or the higher ranked person attacking a lower ranked person. Saying that physical violence is a right or duty for a higher ranking person while a crime for a lower ranking person just shows the problems with the system morally, and how people just accept the system being wrong.

Think of it this way: If one person constantly berated his 'friend', constantly throwing insults before finding themselves in a sticky situation then eventually leaning in to point blame at a time of extreme stress, and possibly trauma, before taking a punch to the face, who would be in the wrong? (hint: it's more than one person)

That being said, it's very easy to assign who's stupid and who's smart, which is also completely unrelated - being a better leader doesn't let you be a jerk, or allow you to be violent.

In my opinion Andi was being stupid, Bandana should've accounted for that, but no one's perfect especially at leading so it's still mostly Andi's fault. Morally, both are to blame, being captain is a hard job because you tread the line between being strict and deserving a good whack.

The Extinguisher
2017-06-17, 07:25 PM
I think the main problem here is we're trying to assign objective morality to the otherwise arbitrary and subjective order of command.

So what if Andi is the engineer and Bandana is the captain? Does that make Andi less of a person because of her status? Does it make Bandana more important in a moral sense? Of course not. Any sort of 'Oh what if you attacked an officer' argument makes no sense, it is equally moral or immoral as some random stranger attacking another stranger, or the higher ranked person attacking a lower ranked person. Saying that physical violence is a right or duty for a higher ranking person while a crime for a lower ranking person just shows the problems with the system morally, and how people just accept the system being wrong.

Think of it this way: If one person constantly berated his 'friend', constantly throwing insults before finding themselves in a sticky situation then eventually leaning in to point blame at a time of extreme stress, and possibly trauma, before taking a punch to the face, who would be in the wrong? (hint: it's more than one person)

That being said, it's very easy to assign who's stupid and who's smart, which is also completely unrelated - being a better leader doesn't let you be a jerk, or allow you to be violent.

its a good thing that Bandana never berated Andi once, let alone constantly


also what happened to this thread? i read through the whole thing I can't even tell where to conversation switched (but i have respect for the people that were trying to have a discussion about Nale in all of this)

Jaxzan Proditor
2017-06-17, 07:28 PM
Think of it this way: If one person constantly berated his 'friend', constantly throwing insults before finding themselves in a sticky situation then eventually leaning in to point blame at a time of extreme stress, and possibly trauma, before taking a punch to the face, who would be in the wrong? (hint: it's more than one person)

Except the person doing the berating is also the one doing the punching. I guess if you wanted to talk about the lines where Bandana asks to be called captain you could include that as "berating" but then you're missing some pretty vital context and Andi is still in the wrong there, even if Bandana could have been more diplomatic.

Kish
2017-06-17, 07:29 PM
Notably, Andi does not do anything approaching what Bandi did until Bandi does it.
What you claim as "notable" is, once again, unsupported and nonsensical. Andi has shouted orders and insults at Bandana since she showed up in this scene. You're choosing to massively overweight Bandana leaning toward Andi as she tells her to do her job.

Yes, Andi was righteously enraged that Little Miss Junior Captain, the kid she used to babysit, dared to shout orders at her and criticize her. Thus, in her rage, she chose to hit her over the head, later bragging that Bandana's failure to obey her made her "something that wasn't working" that she had "fixed" by hitting her with a wrench. Mysteriously, that is not a justification, and nowhere but in your mind did Bandana shout, "Suggestion: Attack me when I turn my back!"

Emperor Demonking
2017-06-17, 07:30 PM
The immeadiate stressors are the events ongoing in the ship, i.e. the deaths of several pirates and your stated reason for Andi's current state.

The deaths of the pirates happened a strip or two before. The screaming occured two panels before. The screaming is obviously more immediate. I don't see any room for debate there.




And, sure, Andi doesn't scream at Bandana, but neither does Bandana ever brain Andi with a metal tool, so I think it's pretty clear neither of them are trying to match the other in actions. And to be clear, I think it is absolutely likely and reasonable (though not necessarily right*) for Bandana's reaction to Andi's disdain to be to shout at her, and that it is entirely unreasonable for the follow up reaction to be a physical assault. Her outright motive for striking Bandana is probably rage, something I hold strongly against her, but her motive for talking to her in the first place (and the underlying motive of all her actions) is almost certainly a misplaced belief that Bandana should not be captain.

*if you wanted to solely make the argument that Bandana shouldn't have reacted this way and highlight of how she can improve as a captain, I might even agree, but in making the claim that not only are what she and Andi did on the same level morally, but also that what Bandana did in anyway automatically resulted in what Andi did you bring this argument way past whether or not what Bandana did was "right".

I'm not saying what they did is on the same level of morality. I'm saying that if you were to get in the face of a random person during a crisis and screamed at them you would find yourself getting struck quite often. 'Fight or Flight' it's a thing.

crayzz
2017-06-17, 07:33 PM
So what if Andi is the engineer and Bandana is the captain?

Ships having captains is a pragmatic issue. You need someone to take the role of central processing, taking in inputs and directing the crew as needed. A ship operates by coordination, and someone has to do the coordinating. Poorly executed coordination is almost always superior to no coordination, and so mid conflict you shut up and do as you're told. Arguing and putzing around because you think you know better will almost certainly make things worse (which it did).

If you have an issue with how well the captain is doing their job, you deal with that after the conflict. If poor captaining is likely to get you killed mid conflict, rebellion mid conflict will almost certainly increase those odds.

The corollary of this, then, is that assaulting the captain mid conflict is worse than mere assault, since it also jeopardizes the ability of the ship to weather that conflict.

That's why Bandana's captaincy is often mentioned. It's important context here.

EDIT:


I'm saying that if you were to get in the face of a random person during a crisis and screamed at them you would find yourself getting struck quite often.

I'm saying if you annoy the person in charge instead of doing your job mid crisis, you'll find they get in your face quite often.

And really, you'd deserve it.

Emperor Demonking
2017-06-17, 07:36 PM
What you claim as "notable" is, once again, unsupported and nonsensical. Andi has shouted orders and insults at Bandana since she showed up in this scene. You're choosing to massively overweight Bandana leaning toward Andi as she tells her to do her job.


I'm not sure its possible to overweight Bandi's descision to turn it into a physical confrontation.

Again, if the screaming and the wrenching are unrelated then why are they two panels apart?

Edit:



I'm saying if you annoy the person in charge instead of doing your job mid crisis, you'll find they get in your face quite often.

And really, you'd deserve it.

Assuming that you're willing to go when they say go, then I don't think that's true actually. I think the vast majority of people would rather solve a problem than indulging it and finally screaming at it. Particularly in a crisis.

georgie_leech
2017-06-17, 07:53 PM
Assuming that you're willing to go when they say go, then I don't think that's true actually. I think the vast majority of people would rather solve a problem than indulging it and finally screaming at it. Particularly in a crisis.

At the risk of opening this can of worms further, which part of Andi's characterisation leads you to believe she's willing to go when Bandana says go?

Vinyadan
2017-06-17, 07:59 PM
https://s30.postimg.org/89bvfbmip/flow_Root3336-6.png

I see similitudes in fan reactions... :tongue:

Jaxzan Proditor
2017-06-17, 08:02 PM
The deaths of the pirates happened a strip or two before. The screaming occured two panels before. The screaming is obviously more immediate. I don't see any room for debate there.
I agree, the second event does occur after the first event. However, since you said the following:
Hand on heart. You are going to die. You have seen people die. The person leading you to your death decided to get in your space to scream at you.I felt that it should be pointed out that two of those apply to Bandana as well, and there's no good reason why the third should lift Andi's response into the physical.


I'm not saying what they did is on the same level of morality. I'm saying that if you were to get in the face of a random person during a crisis and screamed at them you would find yourself getting struck quite often. 'Fight or Flight' it's a thing.
That someone's flight or fight response to stress involves braining them in the head with a weapon is a sign of at the very least underlying anger issues that need treatment. Flight or fight involves a variety of potential responses, and that fact that Andi's is one of anger and then physical assault is very telling. Just because there's a rational physiological explanation for something doesn't excuse it away or somehow push the blame back onto Bandana. Andi clearly has her own underlying mental issues and they can't be excuses for her behavior.

And frankly, in the end, Andi's still the instigator here. Again, you could make a somewhat reasonable claim that Bandana could have behaved better here, but she's only responding to Andi's own insults and orders in a moment of crisis. That Bandana's response is raise her voice, while Andi's response is to brain her with a wrench is, again, pretty telling.

In sum, sure, Bandana's actions make Andi angry. But, that doesn't in the least make her actions automatic or okay. There are lots of ways Andi could have responded, and that she chose the worst one reflects poorly on her.

Emperor Demonking
2017-06-17, 08:05 PM
At the risk of opening this can of worms further, which part of Andi's characterisation leads you to believe she's willing to go when Bandana says go?

What makes me think that she would not actively choose to commit mutiny? One, even after having knocked out Bandi, once Bandi had been freed she immediatey surrendered. If she ended her mutiny even after knocking out the captain and becoming the acting captain, then why would she start a mutiny while an innocent woman?

After her goaded mutiny she immediately ooks at her hands in shock. If she would choose to consciously mutiny then why the shock?

Even if she wouldn't have willingly gone, then Bandi coud simpy order somebody to take the mutineer down. Thus she would be gone. This is worth mentioning for completeness since I don't think she would mutiny, but it also demonstrates that there would be no reason to mutiny. She may automaticay hesitate, but she wouldn't choose to disobey.

Also, she had been disrespectful from a 100 strips ago, yet never once disobeyed an order. Should we not assume that she would keep up the habit of a lifetime.


I felt that it should be pointed out that two of those apply to Bandana as well, and there's no good reason why the third should lift Andi's response into the physical.

The obvious response to Bandi instigating a physical confrontation - forcing Andi to lean back is obviously a physical confrontation; I don't think you'd claim that Andi's action was cool if Bandi had the periph awareness to duck - is a physical reaction.

People don't necessarily choose when in extreme anger, in extreme stress when extremely provoked. The courts recognise this.

Draconi Redfir
2017-06-17, 08:17 PM
The immediate stressor that leads to the wrenching is the leabing over person screaming at her in her face. When does this happen to Bandi?

Pannel 3. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1062.html)

Non-consentual touching, DEMANDING that Bandana listen to her, next pannel, openly insulting her, next pannel, whining about everything that it's HER job to fix.

if you're going to go with the excuse of "Temporary insanity" then i'm going to use it to claim that Bandi got "Temporary insanity" to snap back at her.

Kish
2017-06-17, 08:24 PM
Why exactly does Andi merit her act of violently assaulting her captain being described in such tortured, rationalizing language? "The immediate stressor that lead to the wrenching" already incorporates at least three unsupported and illogical assumptions in and of itself. If you were trying to make Bandana better than she is one-tenth as hard as you're trying to make Andi better than she is, you'd have established that if she died she'd zoom directly to the top of Celestia and the Good gods would start worshiping her by now.

Cizak
2017-06-17, 08:27 PM
When did I make that first claim?


Andi then reacted as most people would have done if in the situation Andi was in.

I mean, if you now want to say that you meant "physical assault is a reflex" all along, I'm totally fine with that. Both arguments are asinine and the reflex one even more so.


You're ignoring the corpses and frost giants. That's moronic. Your description of ther acts is obviously also ridiculous. (Bandi did not simply "raise her voice" and describing Andi as "trying to bash someone's brains in if given the chance" is absurd.)

*The point*



*Your head*

Vinyadan
2017-06-17, 08:27 PM
Pannel 3. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1062.html)

Non-consentual touching, DEMANDING that Bandana listen to her, next pannel, openly insulting her, next pannel, whining about everything that it's HER job to fix.

if you're going to go with the excuse of "Temporary insanity" then i'm going to use it to claim that Bandi got "Temporary insanity" to snap back at her.

Notice that insistent repetition of a question or complaint in written or spoken form already represents mutiny.

Emperor Demonking
2017-06-17, 08:33 PM
Pannel 3. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1062.html)

Non-consentual touching, DEMANDING that Bandana listen to her, next pannel, openly insulting her, next pannel, whining about everything that it's HER job to fix.

if you're going to go with the excuse of "Temporary insanity" then i'm going to use it to claim that Bandi got "Temporary insanity" to snap back at her.

She didn't demand Bandi listen to her. She asked Bandi to listen to her. Touching her sleeve can also not compare to physically leaning over her.

Going on a very rant takes far longer and requires far more agency than swinging a wrench.

" Why exactly does Andi merit her act of violently assaulting her captain being described in such tortured, rationalizing language? "The immediate stressor that lead to the wrenching" already incorporates at least three unsupported and illogical assumptions in and of itself. If you were trying to make Bandana better than she is one-tenth as hard as you're trying to make Andi better than she is, you'd have established that if she died she'd zoom directly to the top of Celestia and the Good gods would start worshiping her by now. "

So Andi is so evil that she is ten times as far from neutral as Bandi is the greatest of good. I don't know what comic you're reading... etc.

Jaxzan Proditor
2017-06-17, 08:41 PM
The obvious response to Bandi instigating a physical confrontation - forcing Andi to lean back is obviously a physical confrontation; I don't think you'd claim that Andi's action was cool if Bandi had the periph awareness to duck - is a physical reaction.

People don't necessarily choose when in extreme anger, in extreme stress when extremely provoked. The courts recognise this.

There's no evidence that Bandana would have hit Andi even if she hadn't lean back; given that the art shows very little movement from Andi its more likely she leans back became Bandana is close, not because she's about to hit her. And even then, that's clearly not the stressor that Andi reacts to. She gets angry, not scared or threatened, and it's from what Bandana says.

Yeah, but crimes of passion are still crimes.

Kish
2017-06-17, 08:46 PM
Anyone who tried to use a "crime of passion" defense for hitting someone over the head, tying them up, and gloating about having hit them over the head would be laughed out of court.

You continue to use tortured, rationalizing language: instead of the obviously-absurd "hitting someone over the head with a wrench is the obvious response to them leaning toward you," it's the functionally-identical but masked with euphemisms "The obvious response to Bandi instigating a physical confrontation (weird-ass non sequitur about Andi's assault of Bandana) is a physical reaction." And I ask again: Why? Why do you so badly want what's in the comic not to be?