Armor Pieces System Feedback Needed

[X3r4ph]

Hey Playgrounders

I have designed an armor piece system for 5e that needs some critique. Is it balanced? What issues might it have?

I have made this because I found that gold had very little value. At least in my group. Buying magical items could be a solution, but I never liked the way it worked in 4e... it felt too... computer game ish.
Now with this system you can hunt down precious materials to make a cool armor. With enough gold, you can craft cool weapons as well. There should be a lot of new options with this.

My plan is to introduce the armor piece system to my group first and then later the option of the new combat actions (as found in the sidebar) and hit points for the armor pieces.

Note: This system isn't intended to work with feats, yet, nor other magical weapons and armor.

It needs a lot of playtesting. It is in the early stages.

Please read it and let me hear your thoughts.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pstDEF8BSYE837oaz5h6Gs4LcES-0sTZHqyptZxvYaI/edit?usp=sharing

Best
Xeraph

[Lombra]

I don't really get the improvised strike (everyone's suddenly a monk?); it sounds like you are trying to design a whole new d20 system, the HP of the armorpieces feel too low; an heavy armor is probably gonna get powdered before your first short rest. I don't dislike the crafting system though.

Edit: actually, I believe that a d20 system wouldn't be a reasonable chassis to support your work, because evasion and blocking already fill the purpose of AC, which is to regulate the damage taken.

[JohanOfKitten]

I find it interesting, as I was looking to do something similar for a survival solo game, with the idea of building the armor along the way.


I think there's still something to do about the numbers. It's a tricky part, cause it's hard to give bonus like +0.5 to AC, but the sum of all armor parts could make a really strong armor in the game.

examples :
Character starting with light armor : for 35gp, he has an AC of 13 + Dex + shield (in the classic rules, he has an AC of 12 + Dex for 45gp)
A medium armor : AC = 18 + Dex (max 3) + shield for 1 110 gp. (classic rules : AC = 15 + dex (max 2) + shield, for 750gp)
An Heavy armor : AC = 23 + shield for 4 600 gp. (Classic rules : AC = 18 + shield, for 1 500gp)

For medium and heavy, the price are rising (specialy for heavy), but in the end, the character will be able to buy it (cause characters gain lot of money with very few expenses) and have an AC way too big for balance.

So at first glance, I think the system might be abuse and unbalanced.


The Armor's HP is a nice idea and I really like the idea of the armor taking part of the blow and breaking. I don't know about hp quantities. I think only playtest can help to rise the right values.



About the combat options :
- Block : Nice reaction, I like the idea. It makes the armor endures the fight, with the possibility of break, of being repared. That won't preserve you completly from a fireball, but it could save the day, by sacrificing the armor part.

- Evade & Parry : I'm less enthousiastic with those ones. The idea is nice, but it will make the fights lasts forever, in my opinion. About balance : the effects are strong, but you can do it only once by turn and the enemy is able to do it too, so it seems ok.

- Improvise : too powerful. As lombra says, it's a monk's core ability. Giving it to everybody is unbalanced.



About Crafting and masterwork :
I think it's weird that you mixed qualities (like being sharp) with materials (like adamantine).
If the smith is really good and get 2 or more qualities, may he do a mithral adamantine sword ?
The armor has only special materials for now. It could be nice to make lighter armor, with qualities like avoiding the stealth disavantage, etc...



For an overall, it seems like a huge work a a lot of changes in the game. It could be hard to deal with (specialy with a large group of players). But I think there's nice things in it and you should dig a bit more to make it work.

[X3r4ph]

I don't really get the improvised strike (everyone's suddenly a monk?); it sounds like you are trying to design a whole new d20 system, the HP of the armorpieces feel too low; an heavy armor is probably gonna get powdered before your first short rest. I don't dislike the crafting system though.

Edit: actually, I believe that a d20 system wouldn't be a reasonable chassis to support your work, because evasion and blocking already fill the purpose of AC, which is to regulate the damage taken.

Hey Lombra, thanks for you input. You have some valid points, let me try to explain my reasoning behind the features and new actions.

In my group, of which I have played with in over 20 years, we have a couple of notorious optimizers. People who er great role players but have a very hard time not picking the most optimal choice. This means that all characters in the group af decked out to have several options for all actions (action, bonus action, move action (with "free action") and reations.

With improvise I introduce an automatic choice to use your bonus action so the players don't have to speculate in multiclassing, feat selection, and spells to get that edge in combat. Now, all they need to do is be creative and I will reward them with an attack that is a little worse than two-weapon fighting, unarmed attack and pole arm master. But still so good as to not feel completely useless compared to the great weapon master user.

I apologize for not elaborating on the hit points of the items more. My inquiry was mostly about the armor class system alone. I will get back to that in the next reply. :D
Item Hit Points is not something I would introduce, to begin with. My idea was that after 3rd level the characters would receive half as many hit points (or something like that, haven't really decided upon this yet) which mean that a lot of their toughness would have to come from armor. Armor, which would wear down through out a long adventuring day to the point where everybody in the group would be in tatters and hard pressed. What the psycological effect of this would be is not something that I know yet. I have to playtest it. But I hope it would stress them the heck out :D

I am glad you like the crafting bit. That is one of my basic reasons to make all of this. I want to make adventuring be more about getting XP and magical items. Gold and materials for crafting is something that I miss. It gives the players some control over their gear which is nice. In my experiecen you want chance for magic drops and crafting for a full experince.

The Evade and Block actions are still under development and both require that armor has hit points. This in turns means that the character need to have lower hit points as described above. A big change to the system that I need to test before implementing.

Thanks agin for the feedback. It was very insightful :D

[X3r4ph]

I find it interesting, as I was looking to do something similar for a survival solo game, with the idea of building the armor along the way.


I think there's still something to do about the numbers. It's a tricky part, cause it's hard to give bonus like +0.5 to AC, but the sum of all armor parts could make a really strong armor in the game.

examples :
Character starting with light armor : for 35gp, he has an AC of 13 + Dex + shield (in the classic rules, he has an AC of 12 + Dex for 45gp)
A medium armor : AC = 18 + Dex (max 3) + shield for 1 110 gp. (classic rules : AC = 15 + dex (max 2) + shield, for 750gp)
An Heavy armor : AC = 23 + shield for 4 600 gp. (Classic rules : AC = 18 + shield, for 1 500gp)

For medium and heavy, the price are rising (specialy for heavy), but in the end, the character will be able to buy it (cause characters gain lot of money with very few expenses) and have an AC way too big for balance.

So at first glance, I think the system might be abuse and unbalanced.


The Armor's HP is a nice idea and I really like the idea of the armor taking part of the blow and breaking. I don't know about hp quantities. I think only playtest can help to rise the right values.



About the combat options :
- Block : Nice reaction, I like the idea. It makes the armor endures the fight, with the possibility of break, of being repared. That won't preserve you completly from a fireball, but it could save the day, by sacrificing the armor part.

- Evade & Parry : I'm less enthousiastic with those ones. The idea is nice, but it will make the fights lasts forever, in my opinion. About balance : the effects are strong, but you can do it only once by turn and the enemy is able to do it too, so it seems ok.

- Improvise : too powerful. As lombra says, it's a monk's core ability. Giving it to everybody is unbalanced.



About Crafting and masterwork :
I think it's weird that you mixed qualities (like being sharp) with materials (like adamantine).
If the smith is really good and get 2 or more qualities, may he do a mithral adamantine sword ?
The armor has only special materials for now. It could be nice to make lighter armor, with qualities like avoiding the stealth disavantage, etc...



For an overall, it seems like a huge work a lot of changes in the game. It could be hard to deal with (especially with a large group of players). But I think there's nice things in it and you should dig a bit more to make it work.

Hey Johan of Kitten

I have covered some of my reasoning in the reply to Lombra above. But let me address some of the thoughts that I haven't covered.

You are absolutely right about the price of the armor bit. I haven't played any of the official campaigns that WotC has released so I am not entirely sure what the income statistic are for characters from 1-20 level. My numbers are based on what I have experienced in my own group. These numbers might have to increase 5 fold, or even 10 fold. I am not sure.
On the plus side, as long as you are playing a homemade campaign, they are completely under the control of the DM and he/she can reward gold in a stream that will give characters heavy armor pieces when they are above 10th level etc.

And since 5 heavy armor pieces and a tower shield (base 8+3+3+3+3+3+3=26) equals what a character with a +3 full plate and a +3 shield (base 10+11+5=26) has in AC I believe it is balanced. Especially if you add in the hit point system. But again. I am not sure I will do this. We will see.

I am glad you like the Block action. I too am optimistic about it. We will see how it plays out.

It seems like everybody I have talked with isn't too thrilled about Evade. In my experience characters will gain access to shield, dodge, retaliation attacks and defensive duelist anyways. So again, to minimize optimization I would just give this ability to begin with. I am not sure how balanced it is. I am very wary about this feature. It will be the last one I will try to implement.

My reasoning about improvising is elaborated above. But I would like to add, that in my experience, the power of the monk comes from Flurry. Flurry is bonkers in the lower levels. But having a bonus action attack is something everybody can get with feats, two-weapon fighting etc.
Also, remember, if you are wearing a shield improvising might be very difficult. But anyways, I will be cautious about this feature.

About the mixing of qualities of weapons. Yes. You are absolutely right, and the mithril-adamantine sword is possible. And it is hella weird. But, I mean, why not? Perhaps the two metals make a new exotic alloy with both qualities? Adamanthril aka carbon nanotube technology. But I agree with you. It is a little weird. We will see how it plays out.

You are also right about that it is a little weird that I am mixing qualities like sharp with materials like adamantine. Hmm. I hadn't thought about that. That is weird. Thanks for pointing that out!

And yeah, I haven't designed the mithril part of the armor section. That would make the armors much lighter of course. Bot sure what other qualities such an armor would get though.


So, apart from the pricing, I don't think there are too many red flags. I will try to play with the changes. Slowly introducing them in the following order:

1. Armor Pieces
2. Crafting
3. Improvise
4. Hit Points and Block
5. Evade

Then we will see what happens.

Thanks for the long and thorough reply. It was very insightful and helpful! :D