Cayden Cailean - Why does he not get the Liberation Domain?

[Caedes]

Preface: This is intended to be a theory thread

After looking at his write-up I ponder to myself why this deity does not get the Liberation Domain? For a deity that values "Freedom and Drink" it seems that Liberation should be a shoe in domain? (A lesser thought around him is for having the title of "The Lucky Drunk" and having the Luckdomain missing as well.)

Is this because they were trying to give some stage time to some lesser loved domains such as Strength and Charm?

Which brings up another thought. If he values freedom of both body and mind, why does he have the Charm domain which is focused on controlling/bending someones mind to your will...

I am curious to what other Playgrounders think and if hey have altered a god's domain list to "better reflect" their description and backstory?

Thank you all in advance!

[Florian]

CC is an interesting deity. The way I understand the lore, it´s personal gratification first, society second, coupled with wanting followers to go out and do right if they think that´s right.
Based on that, the domain choices actually fit.

[Caedes]

I found a link that summarizes the book overview of CC pretty well. Maybe this will bring some clarity to my thoughts?

http://pathfinder.wikia.com/wiki/Cayden_Cailean

[Waker]

The choice of his domains is frankly one of the things that most annoys me.

the man known as Cayden Cailean was a Taldan sellsword and freedom fighter working out of Absalom. He strongly believed that no man should hold power over another...

He holds freedom and adventure in high regard, and opposes tyranny and oppression on principle

Occasionally, his wrists are adorned with broken shackles, representing his doctrine of freedom for both body and mind
Those are just a few quotes taken from his description. His portfolio specifically calls out Freedom as one of his focuses, yet it isn't included as a domain. Frankly the only thing that makes sense is that the brainstorming process for the deities was a group project and there was a case of the left hand not talking to the right. One side said freedom fighter sellsword, but the other side only heard the drunken adventurer part. So his love of booze was exaggerated over the love of freedom.
His domains listed are: Chaos, Charm, Good, Strength, Travel. Frankly I would ax Charm and possibly Travel. I would definitely put in Liberation and Luck as his domains.

[Psyren]

After looking at his write-up I ponder to myself why this deity does not get the Liberation Domain? For a deity that values "Freedom and Drink" it seems that Liberation should be a shoe in domain? (A lesser thought around him is for having the title of "The Lucky Drunk" and having the Luckdomain missing as well.)

I think it's an oversight. Yes, I would say he should grant both Liberation and Luck.



Which brings up another thought. If he values freedom of both body and mind, why does he have the Charm domain which is focused on controlling/bending someones mind to your will...

I think the devs were thinking of "Charm" in the sense that charm spells about making friends and influencing people, rather than outright controlling them. You'll frequently need to influence people to talk your way out of trouble, so it's a decent fit for him from that respect.

What they forgot though is that Charm includes spells like Dominate Monster and Demand that are more tyrannical in nature.

[Zezzy]

I believe Desna as a deity was introduced first (she had her own section in the back of The Skinsaw Murders), and was already a Chaotic Good deity with the Liberation and Luck domains, so I'm guessing they gave Cayden domains that didn't match as much in order to have greater variety among the starting deities.

As for our own games, we allow clerics to take any domain, as long as they can justify why their god would grant it. We did once have a cleric of Cayden Cailean with the Liberation and Travel domains.

[Gildedragon]

Cause he missed er and drank it all up -badump tish-
Get it?
Libation -Liberation

[Florian]

*Laugh*

Being in the beer-business myself, it´s not that hard to be drunk, but it´s harder to affect the political landscape while being drunk.

[Caedes]

Thank you all for the thoughts and the like.

I definitely feel less crazy peevish about that now.

Giantitpg <3 to you guys.

[Aldrakan]

Frankly the only thing that makes sense is that the brainstorming process for the deities was a group project and there was a case of the left hand not talking to the right. One side said freedom fighter sellsword, but the other side only heard the drunken adventurer part. So his love of booze was exaggerated over the love of freedom.


I initially misread this as being an in-universe brainstorming process, so pictured a drunk off his ass Cayden telling some council of cosmic beings what he wanted to represent as a deity but getting distracted and giving them an incoherent travelogue while using the word charm 17 times without noticing.

I don't think it's even the worst explanation. If what mindset you have when you ascend affects your portfolio, being completely trashed could lead to some weird things getting magnified.

[grarrrg]

Preface: This is intended to be a theory thread

After looking at his write-up I ponder to myself why this deity does not get the Liberation Domain?

No theory needed.
In the original printings he DID have Liberation.

But I believe the original printings ALSO had him with 6 domains, and since this made him literally the only deity with more than 5 domains, they axed one.

As for why they ditched Liberation and not one of the others...*shrug*

[Caedes]

I initially misread this as being an in-universe brainstorming process, so pictured a drunk off his ass Cayden telling some council of cosmic beings what he wanted to represent as a deity but getting distracted and giving them an incoherent travelogue while using the word charm 17 times without noticing.

I don't think it's even the worst explanation. If what mindset you have when you ascend affects your portfolio, being completely trashed could lead to some weird things getting magnified.

I personally love this theory. As a matter of a fact, if my players in any group ever ask their god on how the universe works I am going to allow them a vision of that very scene.

[Calthropstu]

I think it's an oversight. Yes, I would say he should grant both Liberation and Luck.



I think the devs were thinking of "Charm" in the sense that charm spells about making friends and influencing people, rather than outright controlling them. You'll frequently need to influence people to talk your way out of trouble, so it's a decent fit for him from that respect.

What they forgot though is that Charm includes spells like Dominate Monster and Demand that are more tyrannical in nature.

Those are compulsion, not charm.

[legomaster00156]

Yes, the spells are of the compulsion subschool instead of the charm subschool, but they are still found in the Charm domain.

[Psyren]

Those are compulsion, not charm.

I know - but they're still in the CHARM domain. I'm saying they probably shouldn't be.

[Florian]

I know - but they're still in the CHARM domain. I'm saying they probably shouldn't be.

Have to disagree with you here. The way some skills create absolute results, especially the social ones, do not differ in any ways from using spells you deem to be "tyrannical" here.

[Calthropstu]

I know - but they're still in the CHARM domain. I'm saying they probably shouldn't be.

I have to agree then. Cayden would definitely not approve of using dominate in almost any circumstance. He definitely wouldn't be granting it to his clerics.

[Psyren]

Have to disagree with you here. The way some skills create absolute results, especially the social ones, do not differ in any ways from using spells you deem to be "tyrannical" here.

In 3.5 that's true, but Pathfinder actually nerfed most of the "absolution" out of the social skills.

[Caedes]

In 3.5 that's true, but Pathfinder actually nerfed most of the "absolution" out of the social skills.

This is my read on some changes in Pathfinder as well. They simplified many things for the better. But It is of course it's own special snowflake.

[CockroachTeaParty]

CC isn't the only deity with some odd domain selections / omissions.

Why does Urgathoa, the goddess of gluttony, disease, and undead, have the War domain? Or the Strength domain? I don't think any aspect of her relating to war exists in her entire chapter in Inner Sea Gods.

For that matter, why doesn't the cavalier class have Knowledge (nobility) as a class skill? HNNRRGH.

[Psyren]

To be fair, not all Cavaliers are from a noble background; there is room for the itinerant knight who had greatness thrust upon him despite lacking formal training in warcraft. For those that do have that background, a trait is an easy enough way of nabbing it.