Need Tactics for Survival! OotA vs 3 man Spellcasting Party

[Clone]

Hey all!
I'll be starting Out of the Abyss soon and discovered the party is 3 spellcasters, including myself.
This set off alarm bells in my head initially due to lack of tank, but then I looked at it simply as a challenge to come up with new strategies rather than run at things screaming as my barbarian/ fighter games have been thus far. So I'd like as much help coming up with tactics to get past some of the harder encounters (without spoilers, of course!)

So the party is as follows:
-Tiefling Feypact Warlock with pact of the Chain and her Pseudodragon familiar
-Circle of the Underdark Land Druid (undecided race)
-Half-Elf melee based Stone Sorcerer (myself) with Subtle Spell and Twinned Spell metamagic

I can't speak for the others, but the Warlock will more than likely be Zapping with Eldritch Blast and being tricky, the land druid will want to cast Call Lightning every 2 seconds (lightning is his thing) and I will be pumping CON and using S&B acting as the tank along with tactical spells such as Suggestion, Counterspell and Hypnotic Pattern, leaving the blasting to the others. The others already have their characters set up so they won't want to change anything, but I'm willing to move on or two things around but would like to stay Stone Sorcerer.

Multiclassing isn't allowed in the campaign but UA is up for grabs if reviewed by the DM, so I will be trying to pick up the Half-Elf Persuasion and Deception expertise feat to be a great party face, using suggestion and other spells to conclude engagements as peacefully as possible.

Any tactics, spells, combos or anything which would help the party?
I considered quickened over subtle but wasn't sure. Is it worth it? Is twinned even worth it considering I'm the only melee fighter?
Thanks in advance, I'm looking forward to what you guys think!

[clash]

Your an all caster party so your first line of defense is your spells. Do things that help you avoid getting attacked and especially overwhelmed.

Battlefield control tactics become very useful for this. Fog cloud or darkness can block line of sight for archers until you can deal with the melee threats. Walls can split up groups so that you only fight one or two enemies at a time and take them down quick enough to not take a lot of damage. Entangle or Web can restrain melee attackers and keep them from ever reaching you. Spike growth can severely weaken them by the time they do. Sleep can provide excellent turn denial at low levels and hold person at higher level. Even ray of frost can be useful for slowing pursuit. Suggestion can take people out of the fight.

The main strategy you want to be looking at is divide and conquer. You want to reduce the number of immediate threats and deal with them one at a time to reduce the amount of damage taken.

[lunaticfringe]

Stealth & try to each have a solid Attack Roll spell option for when you pull off Surprise. Free Round of Attacks with Adv should help, then you throw up some control. Talk to each other and plan things out because you might be Slot Starved for awhile.

[Clone]

Would it be smart to invest in spells such as Suggestion and Misty Step for survivability and utility which the other two may no go for, or go for web and darkness early on? I'll be leaving the damage for the other two when we reach level 5+ but is the lack of a fourth party member that bad in Out of the Abyss where I shouldn't grab one or two of those utility or positioning spells?

Also what about my metamagic choices, are they fine as they are or considering the composition would other choices be required? Never played a sorcerer before so I've no real idea about the potency of the metamagics!

[Corran]

I would probably hold back on twinned, but I would definitely pick up quickened.
Since you will be taking most (all?) hits, it isn't really worth it to twinn concentration spells (cause you risk losing concentration a lot, being the only one in the front line) - also, twinned debuffing is rarely worth it imo.
Twinned GFB (which will be your go-to cantrip I assume) is not a thing, and to make the best out of twinned BB you need either mobile or 2 levels in rogue for cunning action, so unless you are going with a skirmishing focus, BB + hit&run style, I just dont see enough reason to pick twinned.

But quickened, yeah, you need that one. You'll want to take the bad guys out asap, since you are taking all the hits, so quickened helps with that, as it improves action economy. (use quickened with self buffs, or with bllast spells, while still getting your gfb attack; but if you dont proc the secondary effect from gfb, you might better hold off quickening on that round; ie spend sorcery points for maximum effect. Also, quickening gfb, just to stack it on top of another gfb you cast with your action, is probably not worth the sp, until the higher levels).

As for spells, hmmm, my go-to would probably be blur, at least until I hit the mid levels, but perhaps there are better options in spells that control the battlefield, as others have mentioned (personally I like the combination of a good base AC, plus blur, plus shield as a reaction, plus mirror image even if needs be, a bit too much). Obviously warcaster is very much required in your case, both for casting while S&B'ing, but also to help with keeping up concentration (which even with both con save prof and warcaster, is going to be a bit tricky, since many incoming attacks is sth to be expected).

When you hit mid levels (8+), you might want to look up at taking 1 level in warlock, for armor of agathys and 1 extra spell slot that will recharge at short rests (the shield spell will be very important for your survivability, and 3 more shield castings per day is a big deal -assuming 2 short rests). Also, if you pick up AoA, and you upcast it, it might be a good idea for the druid to cast stoneskin at you (armor of agathys and stoneskin pair really well). Stoneskin lasts for a while, and so does armor of agathys, so you can always precast them (both of you) if you want to bring this combo online, without losing any combat actions.

If your other 2 members can keep their distance and blast things from a range, you might want to pick up greater invisibility once you hit sorcerer 7. It will help a lot with your survivability (it's like an improved blur), and according to how your DM will be ruling on stealth (ie overlapping noises and the like), it might even make you undetectable (not to mention that it can protect you from many spells/abilities, that require from the enemy to 'see' you). The attack boost (advantage) is just gravy.

[GorogIrongut]

Not sure if you're sold on being an elf, but by going hill dwarf, you make your stone sorceror VERY tanky for a full spellcaster. +2 Con gives you +1 to your hit points and boosts your AC by 1. It also means you're unlikely to fail a Con Saving Throw. Stone Sorceror gets +1 hp. Hill Dwarf gets +1 hp. You should be rolling in the hit points.

Prioritize Constitution and Charisma and you should be able to tank nicely while still casting everything you want. Being a dwarf means that you get all the goodies that dwarves get with the one negative of having a 25 speed. In my opinion it's worth it.

What race is really more suited to being a STONE sorceror than dwarves?

p.s. Shame there's no multi classing as this screams for 1 level in knowledge cleric.

p.s.s. In my group you get a free underpowered feat at the beginning of the game. I personally would take durable if your DM allows you to do the same. Try and get your hands on a Periapt of Wound Closure as soon as possible. Get your Con up to 20 as soon as possible. Consider getting Dwarven Resilience. Profit.

p.s.s.s. Don't let your party members corral you into being the tank. Let them know in no uncertain terms that you're happy to take your fair share of the hits, but that you're not a fighter and have no intention of jumping in front of a salvo of arrows to save them... That they need to figure out how to have an element of melee protection themselves as they're more responsible for their own safety than you are.

[Clone]

Corran:
Yeah I getcha, I completely overlooked the whole self-buffing aspect of Quickened, instead I'd it in my head that my main use for it would be more booming/ green-flame blades! I felt that was too expensive but I'll totally switch those two out.
For spells (we're starting at level 3) are currently Shield, Sleep, Thunderous Smite and Suggestion. Would Blur be worth switching out for something?
Also would pumping CON or going Warcaster at level 4 be better? I was thinking pumping CON for the HP and AC then getting Warcaster at 8 if the Expertise feats aren't available. What would be the more optimal option?

Yeah, sadly no MCing otherwise I'd be picking up a level of cleric or even two of paladin for extra healing and utility with the expanded spell options.

GorogIrongut:
I considered Hill Dwarf, alongside Goliath, but I'm not quite as sold on Dwarves sadly. I'm also trying to play a different race and class with each character and I make, so this is the Sorcerer/ Half-Elf Character currently. That is still up for debate though, as both my stats are unrolled and I'm unaware if UA feats are available. I do love the flavour though!
In a game I DM, I have some Dwarves who are Stone Sorcs themselves.

While I like the idea of a feat at first level (my first DMing game I did so) my DM has slightly different views at the moment. Which is perfectly fine, he're similar in a lot of other ways with our styles so it helps give each of our games their own feel (we rotate DMs in my group). Ultimately he may come around and say we get something like that, but at the same time there is also the possibility of a fourth player coming which could solve most of my issues. However I can't assume anything, so I turn to you all!

Yeah thats true, it'll also be hard to change styles myself as I'm usually more than happy to jump in the way of said arrows! While the Druid will have Shillelagh for hittin' dudes on the head, I don't think the Warlock has such a melee option.
I don't want to seem pushy either, so I'll be trying to take a tactical approach when dealing with encounters with a constant getaway plan being brewed so we don't get overwhelmed. I tend to be the "You all go on, I'll catch up" player unfortunately, so it'll be hard to shake such a habit!

[Citan]

Your an all caster party so your first line of defense is your spells. Do things that help you avoid getting attacked and especially overwhelmed.

Battlefield control tactics become very useful for this. Fog cloud or darkness can block line of sight for archers until you can deal with the melee threats. Walls can split up groups so that you only fight one or two enemies at a time and take them down quick enough to not take a lot of damage. Entangle or Web can restrain melee attackers and keep them from ever reaching you. Spike growth can severely weaken them by the time they do. Sleep can provide excellent turn denial at low levels and hold person at higher level. Even ray of frost can be useful for slowing pursuit. Suggestion can take people out of the fight.

The main strategy you want to be looking at is divide and conquer. You want to reduce the number of immediate threats and deal with them one at a time to reduce the amount of damage taken.

This is solid advice, but I'd still put a grain of salt though!
Using these kind of spells require to be wise about placement and having good coordination.

So OP, if you and your mates are used to play together OR you are used to tactical spell use, go for all of these.
Otherwise, I'd suggest using EE additional book because most spells are most suited to "continuous adaptation".
For example, Earth Tremor both deals damage and make people fall prone. So it's great for "one-shot occasions where a few enemies are clumped together while your friends are still in the way of getting to them.

At 2nd level, instead of Web (great but inamovible), or Darkness (can be move but with tricks), I'd suggest Dust Devil: obscures area (same as Fog Cloud) unless you are in clean artificial rooms, damages and pushes away enemies, and more importantly can be moved. ;)

Maximilian's Earthen Grasp is also a good one, although it takes action to change targets. ;)

Or course, you could just take Careful metamagic. But since you will be the one tanking anyways, I feel it may be overkill to take a metamagic "just for you". With that said, taking it could open some very interesting tricks later when more powerful spells arise (such as Web obviously but also Sleet Storm, Stinking Cloud, Maelstrom)...

Anyways, I don't know the Stone Sorcerer but people seem to say it's rock-solid so... XD
You should be fine as long as you are a minimum careful (especially at low levels, if you are seriously threatened, have no more Shield but don't want to just disengage, it's better to "waste" your action on Dodging rather than being down before the next turn).

[Corran]

Corran:
Yeah I getcha, I completely overlooked the whole self-buffing aspect of Quickened, instead I'd it in my head that my main use for it would be more booming/ green-flame blades! I felt that was too expensive but I'll totally switch those two out.
For spells (we're starting at level 3) are currently Shield, Sleep, Thunderous Smite and Suggestion. Would Blur be worth switching out for something?
Also would pumping CON or going Warcaster at level 4 be better? I was thinking pumping CON for the HP and AC then getting Warcaster at 8 if the Expertise feats aren't available. What would be the more optimal option?

Yeah, sadly no MCing otherwise I'd be picking up a level of cleric or even two of paladin for extra healing and utility with the expanded spell options.

I played HotD with a melee sorc gish, and for a big part of the campaign I was the only frontliner. Blur did help me a lot, and perhaps this experience is making me overestimate this specific spell. But yeah, if you are not fighting against something that can see through illusions, and you are the only one taking hits (or at least the majority of hits), I would say that blur is a very solid spell (you'll get better concentration spells as you go, so at some point you might want to swap it with something else, but ime it holds up pretty well at least until you get access to greater invisibility -maybe even a little after that). Particularly if you have a good AC and the shield spell in reserve. I'd swap it with thunderous smite, which does not impress me all that much, since it's a concentration spell.

About feats, mmm, I would probably aim for warcster first, both for being able to cast shield without droping my weapon (though that falls under DM discretion perhaps, and generally it has a lot to do with how strict the DM is with somatic components), but also for boosting concentration (with that many inc attacks, I would like to have my concentration checks set up from as early as I can have a good concentration spell going). So I would personally go with warcaster @4 and with the con bump @8. But that's just my gut and preferences doing the talking.

Hypnotic pattern will also be of great use to you. Since all/most enemies will flock to you, and being a halfelf (immune to charm), you can cast it centered on yourself (or sth like that), without worrying about spending sp on careful. That means that you can aim for a different metamagic, apart from quicken, at lvl 3.

ps: Be careful about proning enemies, cause it can hurt your ranged allies. Dont try to shove (prone) targets that your allies are focusing too.


it's better to "waste" your action on Dodging rather than being down before the next turn).
This is good advice. Dodge really help in situations when 1 char tanks and the rest shoot from a distance.

[GorogIrongut]

Sounds like you would be more effective being a Cleric of the Forge in this instance... that said I second Subtle and Quicken. It enables the combo of a quickened Hold Person, which you then attack (or Booming Blade) for autocritted damage.

If you're set on being a melee Stone Sorc HElf, then Warcaster is probably a better buy than the +2 to Con... sadly.

[Clone]

This is solid advice, but I'd still put a grain of salt though!
Using these kind of spells require to be wise about placement and having good coordination.

So OP, if you and your mates are used to play together OR you are used to tactical spell use, go for all of these.
Otherwise, I'd suggest using EE additional book because most spells are most suited to "continuous adaptation".
For example, Earth Tremor both deals damage and make people fall prone. So it's great for "one-shot occasions where a few enemies are clumped together while your friends are still in the way of getting to them.

At 2nd level, instead of Web (great but inamovible), or Darkness (can be move but with tricks), I'd suggest Dust Devil: obscures area (same as Fog Cloud) unless you are in clean artificial rooms, damages and pushes away enemies, and more importantly can be moved. ;)

Maximilian's Earthen Grasp is also a good one, although it takes action to change targets. ;)

Or course, you could just take Careful metamagic. But since you will be the one tanking anyways, I feel it may be overkill to take a metamagic "just for you". With that said, taking it could open some very interesting tricks later when more powerful spells arise (such as Web obviously but also Sleet Storm, Stinking Cloud, Maelstrom)...

Anyways, I don't know the Stone Sorcerer but people seem to say it's rock-solid so... XD
You should be fine as long as you are a minimum careful (especially at low levels, if you are seriously threatened, have no more Shield but don't want to just disengage, it's better to "waste" your action on Dodging rather than being down before the next turn).

We've played a while but known each other for a few years, but the last thing I want to do is start telling them strategies when RP and normal character motivation is a big thing at our table. So while its not quite "everyone do their own thing" its more going to have to be more along the lines of "I'll going to act a certain way, indicate this, and hope that the party follows up".

Are Maximilian's Earthen Grasp and Dust Devil that good? I love the idea of them but wasn't sure if they were worth the spells known. Super thematic though, which I love. Extremely hard to be the party face AND utility at these many spells known!

Corran:
I can see the logic, currently running HotDQ for the same group plus one player (weird DM rotation process) and I can see how useful that would be. I suppose I'll have to roll with one or two spells initially to see how the work then change them when I reach level 4.

Thanks again everyone, this is really helping. I'll probably take Warcaster at 4 then pump CON.
Still unsure of my spell selection though.
Currently at Shield, Sleep, Suggestion, Blur

Would trading out Sleep and grabbing Maximilian's Earthen Grasp along with Invisibility be a good call? What about misty step?
Probably going to be rolling with Booming Blade, Green-Flame Blade, Mold Earth (thematic reasons), Minor Illusion for cantrips, picking up Ray of Frost at 4. Would Fire Bolt be a good pick up instead?

GorogIrongut:
I'm unfortunately sticking with the idea, have the concept mostly! A cleric would probably be more useful for the group but I'm already sold on the idea and even pitched the idea to the others who love the Stone Sorcerer concept! Its also interesting this way too, as I usually play in my own comfort zone most of the time so this'll one heck of a challenge!

[Citan]

We've played a while but known each other for a few years, but the last thing I want to do is start telling them strategies when RP and normal character motivation is a big thing at our table. So while its not quite "everyone do their own thing" its more going to have to be more along the lines of "I'll going to act a certain way, indicate this, and hope that the party follows up".

Are Maximilian's Earthen Grasp and Dust Devil that good? I love the idea of them but wasn't sure if they were worth the spells known. Super thematic though, which I love. Extremely hard to be the party face AND utility at these many spells known!


Would trading out Sleep and grabbing Maximilian's Earthen Grasp along with Invisibility be a good call? What about misty step?
Probably going to be rolling with Booming Blade, Green-Flame Blade, Mold Earth (thematic reasons), Minor Illusion for cantrips, picking up Ray of Frost at 4. Would Fire Bolt be a good pick up instead?

Well, they are not THAT good (like, "you just have to pick them" good) but they are very interesting in the fact that you can use them to achieve various goals, and they last one full minute while allowing you to try your luck several times.

So if a creature frees itself from Hand for example, you can still try to restrain it again next turn (compare to Entangle, which requires concentration and affects only at cast -although it is a AOE effect).
As usual, those spells are not "better" than others, they just cater to different needs.
And, the fact it uses your action to do so is less hard on a Sorcerer who can always Quicken a cantrip if he really wants to deal some damage.

Also note that Sleep will be harder to use with time, in combat at least, because creature's HP will rise quickly. You can still use it in pseudo encounters situations like, "I'm sneaking into a hideout and there is an isolated guard I can't kill for whatever reason". But it becomes a bit niche.

My suggestion would be: swap Sleep with either Dust or Maximilian, try it, see if you like it, rinse and repeat. ;)

[GorogIrongut]

For a character with a high charisma... and who could get access to disguise self, I'm a HUGE fan of the cantrip, Friends. So much insanity can be caused because of that combo. I'd personally go for booming blade or GFB, not both.

[Clone]

Citan:
I had a look over those spells and Dust Devil seems very interesting, especially when mixed with Booming Blade and Warcaster. Maximillian's Earthen Grasp less so as, at least as I initially see it I could be wrong, it can only grab enemies within the 5ft reach when you bring it up.
You can't get it to move, can you?
I've used sleep as a Bladesinger in another campaign, such a good spell! I'll probably keep it till level 5 like you suggest. If I can almost replicate a scene where I put a manticore to sleep as it tried to fly away, I'll be happy!
I won't be able to test many spells out too, as all three of us will be picking our spells individually and I don't want to influence what their characters would do etc

GorogIrongut:
I completely forgot about that combo and I love it. Cantrip got!

[Citan]

Citan:
I had a look over those spells and Dust Devil seems very interesting, especially when mixed with Booming Blade and Warcaster. Maximillian's Earthen Grasp less so as, at least as I initially see it I could be wrong, it can only grab enemies within the 5ft reach when you bring it up.
You can't get it to move, can you?
I've used sleep as a Bladesinger in another campaign, such a good spell! I'll probably keep it till level 5 like you suggest. If I can almost replicate a scene where I put a manticore to sleep as it tried to fly away, I'll be happy!
I won't be able to test many spells out too, as all three of us will be picking our spells individually and I don't want to influence what their characters would do etc

GorogIrongut:
I completely forgot about that combo and I love it. Cantrip got!
Hmm, yes you can move the Hand. I just double-checked, it's in the last paragraph. With that said, there is something that I thought clear but which isn't so now... The "within range" part.
I always assumed it was "anywhere within the 30 feet radius around you", so it made it very strong because as long as you kept it always within 30 feet, you could "expand" its actual reach by moving yourself turn by turn. But maybe the point of reference is the actual position of the hand within each turn. Both seem logical to me, so I'll wait for other's view on that. :)