Insane MAD PC design

[ZorroGames]

Discussing with wife about her return to D&D probabilities after she retires next year (low despite her interest because of Tai Chi, Handbells, and Choir,) and the Wizard/Cleric or Wizard/Fighter MC thread came up.

She said, paraphrasing, "Why not Fighter 2/Cleric 1/Wizard X?"

I stifled my thought, "Are you MAD," as she is even newer to 5th Edition than myself and would miss the joke.

That said, help explain to her and to me if that build is as crazy as my first thought or if maybe, once again, she is smarter than me.

Would it work? What would be good, what would be bad? She seems to think "optimizing"="min/max munchkinism" when I was explaining how it functions in 5th Edition.

[coolAlias]

Is she trying to min/max with that character or is she choosing those classes because that's the kind of character she has in mind?

Keep in mind that a 14 in a stat is still perfectly serviceable for performing a class' main functions, so while she may not be 'optimum', she would be versatile(ish) and still plenty adequate in a fight.

Also, when she multiclasses will have a big effect on how her character plays. Starting fighter or cleric vs. picking up those levels starting on 18th is a totally different experience.

[ZorroGames]

Is she trying to min/max with that character or is she choosing those classes because that's the kind of character she has in mind?

Keep in mind that a 14 in a stat is still perfectly serviceable for performing a class' main functions, so while she may not be 'optimum', she would be versatile(ish) and still plenty adequate in a fight.

Also, when she multiclasses will have a big effect on how her character plays. Starting fighter or cleric vs. picking up those levels starting on 18th is a totally different experience.

It would be my character and it would be trying to add armor, ranged weapons for that "extra added touch at long range," and clerical spells to an essentially Wizard character.

She ran a Gnome Fighter/Illusionist back in AD&D 1st edition and OD&D based campaign. She lost her "best friend" Monk (my character) to a Yuan-Ti ambush in a module. Back then Monks used D4 for hps. :smallmad: She was trying to include all the bells and whistles in the character creation.

While it would be interesting I do wonder how stifling to a Wizard Character would be the side trip of Fighter 2 and Cleric 1.

I lean towards Cleric 1/Wizard X but that two levels of Fighter might help with the ranged combat (javelins or short bow) until the spells come online in sufficient numbers.

[Waterdeep Merch]

It would be my character and it would be trying to add armor, ranged weapons for that "extra added touch at long range," and clerical spells to an essentially Wizard character.

She ran a Gnome Fighter/Illusionist back in AD&D 1st edition and OD&D based campaign. She lost her "best friend" Monk (my character) to a Yuan-Ti ambush in a module. Back then Monks used D4 for hps. :smallmad: She was trying to include all the bells and whistles in the character creation.

While it would be interesting I do wonder how stifling to a Wizard Character would be the side trip of Fighter 2 and Cleric 1.

I lean towards Cleric 1/Wizard X but that two levels of Fighter might help with the ranged combat until the spells come online in number.
It depends on what level you're looking at playing at, I'd say. Two levels of fighter are amazing for wizards, and a quick trip down cleric lane gains a lot of buff and support tricks. Since this wouldn't close off your access to wish, this is actually a pretty ideal level 20 build for a wizard.

The real problem would be playing this at earlier levels, especially 1-7, as that spellcasting delay would hurt bad.

EDIT: I should say 3-7, as there's very little wrong with being a level 2 fighter (as you should certainly start out with this build, for the benefits it brings to the table by being chosen first).

[coolAlias]

Ranged cantrips are your friend. Unlimited use and their damage will be better than any ranged weapon you can acquire.

A single level of cleric does get you access to 1st level cleric spells, but in 5e spell slots are pooled between all spellcasting classes so not only will casting a cleric spell mean you lose a slot that could have cast a wizard spell, but most of the good cleric spells will also be competing for your Concentration.

Are there particular cleric spells that you envision your character wanting to use on a regular basis that there isn't an equivalent or better wizard spell?

As for Fighter 2 - yes, it's powerful, but is it more powerful than a higher level of spell? I would argue not*. Fighter 2 / Wizard 3, you can action surge once per short rest to cast two 1st or 2nd level spells in a single round, vs. Wizard 5 you can cast fireball.
* This of course changes once you reach sufficiently high level, but for most of your career it will be the case.

You lose a lot as a primary spellcaster when you dip into other classes and you have to ask if what you are gaining is really worth it.

Now, if you're just going for the flavor of it, by all means do so. Your character will be a fine adventurer.

[GorogIrongut]

Fighter 2/Cleric 1/Wizard X...

Whenever going Wizard, dipping cleric can give you a crazy amount of stuff for just 1 level. I have a particular preference for Knowledge... but depending on what kind of wizard you want to make, a lot of the domains can be equally as useful. So I would argue this is a good choice for MC'ing.

Fighter 2... this makes the cleric a little less good as fighter gives you all weapons and armour... which was one of the things you could essentially get from the cleric dip. That said... by doing this first you make sure that you get proficiency in Constitution which is a great thing for a spellcaster. It starts you off with a flat 10hp for your first level (+ other bonuses). It gets you a fighting style. Second Wind... And the oh so wonderful Action Surge.
One could argue that this also is a very good dip. The only downside really is that this makes going cleric a little less good.

By multiclassing into those 3, you also leave 17 levels in Wizard, which still just nets you your level 9 spells. You count as a level 18 spellcaster by the end of things. You start off with great spells like Bless, Cure Wounds, Guidance, etc. And then you get to work into your Wizard stuff. If you go knowledge, you can get expertise in Arcana. Couple that with an Abjurer and you're the bees knees at dispelling and counterspelling things. You essentially get to interact in most phases of the game, and you get to do so fairly well.

I think you can already see my preferences peeking out. 2 levels in fighter followed by 1 in a knowledge cleric. Then finish your character as an abjurer. You're a bit of a skill monkey (knowledge cleric). You're a tank (fighter + arcane ward, maybe even go dwarf). You're essentially a full caster with lots of adaptability. All you really miss out on is one ASI and Spell Mastery.

[coolAlias]

As GorogIrongut's post shows, you can definitely make that character work.

I would argue that being 3 levels behind as far as casting ability is too great of a cost for what you gain. Maybe 1 level of either cleric or fighter would be worth it, but even that...

Delaying higher level spells hurts for longer and longer periods of time as each level generally takes longer to reach than the last.

But, that's just my play preference. If you feel the delay is worth armor+cleric spells+whatever else, your character will still be perfectly fine. There will be times when you wished you had that fireball, just as there would be times you'd wish for armor or Con proficiency if you don't take fighter/cleric. 5e is pretty neat like that. ;)

[Vaz]

I actually really like the idea of a Fighter 2/Cleric 1/Wizard X - you're going to want Int, Dex, and Wis in that order IMHO. I don't think it's gamebreaking, one way or the other. I don't think it can be a primary spellcaster, however.

Fighter 2; gives you a Fighting Style - inevitably dueling, or defence, and action surge, which can quickly get broken with Wizard spellcasting, as well as a Bonus Action heal, and then martial, armour and shield proficiency. Human can obviously offset that, giving you free War Caster for Con Advantage and ability to use a shield. This helps you aid with some of the front lining abilities.

Cleric 1; This lets you do whatever you want. As a character with Int focus, Nature or Knowledge are even better, Blessing of the Trickster to prevent your armoured tank from sucking in stealth, or get bonus action attacks; combined with Fighter 2, Bladesinger, and Haste, you can get 6 Attacks in a single turn, or just spam 2 fireballs with Evocation ignoring yourself and allies, and then bonus attacking

Wizard; obviously this is the meat of your character, but you're 3 levels behind on known spells. When you hit Wizard 2, you are a delayed Wizard, but you have your ability to cast your Booming Blade, because the rest of the party spellcasters are hitting 3rds. While they're throwing fireballs, you're still throwing a Burning Hands out (admittedly, you can do it at 2nd level), but you have a bit more fun and a few more options with the rest of the party.

[Ghatt]

I guess it depends on what you're looking to get out of that character but I'd go Eldritch Knight/Cleric or Paladin/Wizard (or sorcerer) before triple classing the character.

[Kuulvheysoon]

It would be my character and it would be trying to add armor, ranged weapons for that "extra added touch at long range," and clerical spells to an essentially Wizard character.

I lean towards Cleric 1/Wizard X but that two levels of Fighter might help with the ranged combat (javelins or short bow) until the spells come online in sufficient numbers.

Couldn't you do something like Cleric 1-2/Wizard X if you took the Tempest or War domain? I mean, they both grant you heavy armor and full martial weapons, if that's all you were looking for out of the Fighter dip.

[ZorroGames]

Couldn't you do something like Cleric 1-2/Wizard X if you took the Tempest or War domain? I mean, they both grant you heavy armor and full martial weapons, if that's all you were looking for out of the Fighter dip.

Yes, you get the armor and weapons (first key, second "cool") but Fighter would give you the CO saves...

Maybe Fighter 1/Cleric 1/Wizard 18, in that order?

Fighter at "0"
Cleric at 300
Wizard at 900

Basically it is CO saves for Fighter that attracts because you can get heavy or medium (with 14 DE) armor with cleric (and maybe martial weapons based on what Domain of Cleric.)

The Rock Gnome or Hill Dwarf possibilities are attractive.

Heavy Armor does (page 145) require either ST of 13 or 15 unless you use Ring Mail. I can beat that AC with DE 14 and scale/breastplate/half plate.

Decidions, decisions, decisions...