Soul Knife by Middle Finger of Vecna

[Requiemforlust]

Yesterday the team at MFoV posted a new Soul Knife, and I thought it was pretty chill, what do y'all think? I wanna ask my DM if I can use it, and she generally respects the opinions of GitP on matters like this one.

Link: http://mfov.magehandpress.com/2017/06/soul-knife-redux.html?m=1

[Foff]

my main concern is that it's a Monk subclass and not a Mystic Order, other than that, pretty dope to play Zeratul in d&d :D

[jaappleton]

Ah, specifically by the Knuckle of Vecna.

(Spoilers: That's GitP member DracoKnight )

He's someone I consider a friend. :smallbiggrin:

That said, he doesn't mind when I RIP HIS THINGS TO SHREDS, SO LET'S CRITIQUE IT!

Lv3 - Basically Expertise in Arcana and History. Fine. Int is usually a dump stat for Monks, so being able to not suck in some Int based skills is OK by me.

Lv3 - You gain a psychic weapon that you can't really be disarmed of, and you can Flurry with it. Good.

Lv6 - I love the spells chosen. Love them. Psychic Strike is obviously molded after the SCAG cantrips. I'd typically do normal attacks, as I value multiple chances to hit over potentially doing more damage. But I like it. Hitting with this and then Dodging as a bonus action could be a powerful combo.

Lv6 - Elemental Ki is fine. I could see an argument for removing Necrotic and Radiant from the list, since Radiant is one of the strongest damage types. But so isn't Psychic, which your blade can already do, so... I don't see much of an issue.

Lv11 - I really like this in flavor. It's taken from the Ranger, I think, their Whirlwind Attack. I question how often it'll come into play in practice, considering the insane mobility of the Monk. They typically don't like being surrounded to the point where they'd have an opportunity to have more than 2 or 3 foes on them at once, and they already have up to 4 attacks here.

EDIT: I almost wonder if a 15ft cone effect would be better. Basically a Psychic version of Burning Hands, but one that wouldn't suck at this level.

Lv17 - The Ki cost is... Ok, I know he modeled it after what other archetypes of Monks can do. Open Hand can spend 3 and outright kill creatures. But doesn't the Long Death have to spend more to deal 10d10? Though I don't know if that's simply a case of Open Hand's capstone being amazing, and Long Death's being terrible. That could be more of an indictment on those other archetypes than it is for this capstone not costing enough, I'm honestly not sure.


Overall?

I like it. No real issues here. I'd allow it at my table, and I'd play one. It's not a Soul Knife in the sense of a Mystic, but in the sense of 'highly mobile Psychic Warrior', I really like it.

[Llama513]

I really like it, and frankly, I think it works better as a monk archetype, don't get me wrong I love the idea of the mystic, but it still has a ways to go, and frankly does too much with one class, with that said, I really do like the idea of moving some of the archetypes to other classes where frankly they work better, like this one

[Gryndle]

I really like it. it has officially been pilfered for my table. Thanks oh Middle Finger of Vecna-ians

[Kuulvheysoon]

About the only things I don't like about it are the lack of Throw Mind Blade, and the relative weakness of Knife to the Soul.

The lack of ranged makes sense given the Sun Soul Monk and not wanting to step on its toes (though I've got my own issues with that subclass), and the 17th level ability is probably fine, but I tend to compare most of those abilities to Quivering Palm, which probably isn't fair.

[lunaticfringe]

What jaappleton said is spot on. Nothing broken, some stuff is kinda wonky. I like the cone idea.

[GandalfTheWhite]

Okay, I f*cking love this. This is better than the WotC version of the Soul Knife that was included in the Mystic. Well done, Middle Finger of Vecna, well done.

WotC should look at hiring y'all. Just saying...fledgling game designers managed to nail a concept better than the experienced ones...and ya'know...they could probably afford to hire y'all...what with them having a small design team and everything.

[Arcangel4774]

It seems slightly stronger than any other monk subclass but surely not overpowered. It both has boosted damage with its ki blade (one die bigger), which counts both as spell attack and a weapon attack (not sure if there's any advantage here but it is strange none the less). It's defense and crowd control are stronger thanks to the spell list , with the possible exception of the open hand monk flurry bonuses in terms of crowd control. The level 11 ability seems odd, but isn't as strong on a monk who can just about do this anyway.

[DracoKnight]

*sees topic, is intrigued by people could be saying*

Thank you everyone for your comments, and I'm glad y'all like our work on the Soul Knife!

[Grod_The_Giant]

I suspect you need to specify that the Ki Blade spell attack is made with Wisdom though, yes? (Or so I presume). Otherwise... my main concern, I think, is that Ki Blade being a spell attack means that it's actually incompatible with the rest of the subclass. It's an attack action, still, but it's not a melee weapon attack. I guess it would still work with Martial Arts, but I don't think it works with Psychic Strike or Bladewind (melee attack =/= melee spell attack, right?)

[Arcangel4774]

I suspect you need to specify that the Ki Blade spell attack is made with Wisdom though, yes? (Or so I presume). Otherwise... my main concern, I think, is that Ki Blade being a spell attack means that it's actually incompatible with the rest of the subclass. It's an attack action, still, but it's not a melee weapon attack. I guess it would still work with Martial Arts, but I don't think it works with Psychic Strike or Bladewind (melee attack =/= melee spell attack, right?)

It also counts as a monk weapon, which i read as allowing it to function as a both weapon and spell attacks which is weird, but I'm not sure if it matters much.

[DracoKnight]

I suspect you need to specify that the Ki Blade spell attack is made with Wisdom though, yes? (Or so I presume). Otherwise... my main concern, I think, is that Ki Blade being a spell attack means that it's actually incompatible with the rest of the subclass. It's an attack action, still, but it's not a melee weapon attack. I guess it would still work with Martial Arts, but I don't think it works with Psychic Strike or Bladewind (melee attack =/= melee spell attack, right?)


It also counts as a monk weapon, which i read as allowing it to function as a both weapon and spell attacks which is weird, but I'm not sure if it matters much.

Exactly what Arcangel said. It's like how the Sun Soul has a ranged Spell attack that keys off of Dexterity. I did the same thing here for the Ki Blade, except with a melee spell Attack.

[Arcangel4774]

Exactly what Arcangel said. It's like how the Sun Soul has a ranged Spell attack that keys off of Dexterity. I did the same thing here for the Ki Blade, except with a melee spell Attack.

I think the biggest point of confusion is that a spell attack (which the sun soul uses) is strictly not a weapon attack. The sun soul lasers specifically scale with martial arts die, can be used with the attacks action, and use dexterity but is not a weapon attack. The ki blade is both, which seems odd and a little confusing as normally the too are incompatible. It's important to a monk as their stunning strike, and many other features both from the main class and subclass, require weapon attacks.

[DracoKnight]

I think the biggest point of confusion is that a spell attack (which the sun soul uses) is strictly not a weapon attack. The sun soul lasers specifically scale with martial arts die, can be used with the attacks action, and use dexterity but is not a weapon attack. The ki blade is both, which seems odd and a little confusing as normally the too are incompatible. It's important to a monk as their stunning strike, and many other features both from the main class and subclass, require weapon attacks.

The Ki Blade is not a weapon attack. As written you can't use Stunning Strike with it - I wanted WotSoul Knife Monks to still have a reason to use unarmed strikes.

EDIT: for grammar *eye roll*

[Arcangel4774]

The Ki Blade is not a weapon attack. As written you can't use Stunning Strike with it - I wanted a reason for WotSoul Knife Monks to still have a reason to use unarmed strikes.

Oooh I really do like that, and was hoping that was the case when I read it, for balance sake, but wasnt certain. I couldn't quite tell based on the line where it says "You are profficient with it, and it counts as a monk weapon."

[DracoKnight]

Oooh I really do like that, and was hoping that was the case when I read it, for balance sake, but wasnt certain. I couldn't quite tell based on the line where it says "You are profficient with it, and it counts as a monk weapon."

The spell Attack counts as a Monk weapon so that you can use martial arts or Flurry of Blows, if you so choose (to say trigger a Stunning Strike, for instance) but it's still a melee spell attack, and thus can't be used to Stunning Strike.

[Theodoxus]

I too really like this - my singular bone of contention is the damage die on the knife itself. As Jaapleton pointed out, psychic is already an amazing damage type. That bearbarian is gonna poop himself when faced with a soul knife as his DR means squat... so why not have it scale with the martial arts die? Having two scaling damages - especially with your requirement that you have to make unarmed attacks to get off stunning strikes - just seems odd, and overly complicated.

An explanation for that decision would be a kindness.

I'm starting a monk in a new game Monday - so I have a couple levels to convince my DM to let me try this out :smallbiggrin:

[DracoKnight]

I too really like this - my singular bone of contention is the damage die on the knife itself. As Jaapleton pointed out, psychic is already an amazing damage type. That bearbarian is gonna poop himself when faced with a soul knife as his DR means squat... so why not have it scale with the martial arts die? Having two scaling damages - especially with your requirement that you have to make unarmed attacks to get off stunning strikes - just seems odd, and overly complicated.

An explanation for that decision would be a kindness.

I'm starting a monk in a new game Monday - so I have a couple levels to convince my DM to let me try this out :smallbiggrin:

I don't remember what our rational for making it 1 die higher than martial arts was - maybe that it needed higher reward for needing to rely on Unarmed Strikes for Stunning Strike - I can look for my design notes and get back to you on that.

Also, if you do get to play it, I would love to hear how it plays for you! I really enjoyed it, but I'm also biased :smallwink:

[jaappleton]

I totally disagree with the Knife having one damage die higher than Unarmed Strike dice. It's not hard to keep track of at all.

It only increases every so often. Let's be honest, in actual play, you know what your weapon die is. You know it. If you don't know, it takes what, three rounds before it sinks it?

[Theodoxus]

I totally disagree with the Knife having one damage die higher than Unarmed Strike dice. It's not hard to keep track of at all.

It only increases every so often. Let's be honest, in actual play, you know what your weapon die is. You know it. If you don't know, it takes what, three rounds before it sinks it?

That wasn't the point...

Part of the appeal of Monks is that their weapon damage adjusts to their unarmed damage. So if you're using short swords, at 11th level, they're dealing 1d8s... but with the soul knife, it's always better to use the knife than MA (outside of the stunning strike rider). Now, maybe this is to compensate for the lack of enchantments on weapons, which is fine - just was curious about it - it's easier to explain new ideas to old DMs when there's a reason more than 'it looked cool on paper?'

[jaappleton]

That wasn't the point...

Part of the appeal of Monks is that their weapon damage adjusts to their unarmed damage. So if you're using short swords, at 11th level, they're dealing 1d8s... but with the soul knife, it's always better to use the knife than MA (outside of the stunning strike rider). Now, maybe this is to compensate for the lack of enchantments on weapons, which is fine - just was curious about it - it's easier to explain new ideas to old DMs when there's a reason more than 'it looked cool on paper?'

Ah, I got it now. Sorry for misunderstanding.

Yeah, I see no reason why to not have it as a normal Monk weapon so it follows the normal Monk rules about that. IMO, basically treat it as the same as a Pact Weapon, but for Monks.

[Grod_The_Giant]

The Ki Blade is not a weapon attack. As written you can't use Stunning Strike with it - I wanted WotSoul Knife Monks to still have a reason to use unarmed strikes.

EDIT: for grammar *eye roll*
So it does work with Martial Arts, Bladewind, and Psychic Strike, but not with Stunning Strike? That seems... odd. You do have a reason to use unarmed strikes fairly regularly-- to keep your normal round-to-round damage up. It feels like needless complexity to do it this way... Either way, it's probably worth specifically calling out what it does and doesn't work with, so you don't have to carefully puzzle through parsing "melee attack" vs "melee spell attack" vs "melee weapon attack."


Ah, I got it now. Sorry for misunderstanding.

Yeah, I see no reason why to not have it as a normal Monk weapon so it follows the normal Monk rules about that. IMO, basically treat it as the same as a Pact Weapon, but for Monks.
Because otherwise, nine times out of ten, there's no reason to use it over a fist or two-handed spear?

[DracoKnight]

So it does work with Martial Arts, Bladewind, and Psychic Strike, but not with Stunning Strike? That seems... odd. You do have a reason to use unarmed strikes fairly regularly-- to keep your normal round-to-round damage up. It feels like needless complexity to do it this way... Either way, it's probably worth specifically calling out what it does and doesn't work with, so you don't have to carefully puzzle through parsing "melee attack" vs "melee spell attack" vs "melee weapon attack."

Round-to-round damage is kept up with your Soul Knife. You can use it with the Attack Action, which means you can use it with Extra Attack, and it has a built in "spend 1 Ki to make two attacks with it as a bonus action" line, which means that you can essentially Flurry. So you're not having a damage drop off with the knife.

I found my design notes and calling it out as a Monk weapon wasn't to make it compatible with Martial Arts, it was so that you could use it with STR or DEX, since we didn't want to punish STR builds.

Bladewind calls out a "melee attack" not a "melee weapon attack" which is a distinction consistent with Core options. Same with Psychic Strike. Stunning Strike specifically calls for a "melee weapon attack." Official 5e content already uses those distinctions, and it's something you have to look out for in play.

@Theodoxus: in my notes I discovered the reason for the bumped damage die: it is indeed to make up for the inability to enchant a soul knife or upgrade it via magic items. It is essentially a Monk-specific magic dagger that does Psychic damage and +1 damage (on average) on damage rolls.

[Theodoxus]

@Theodoxus: in my notes I discovered the reason for the bumped damage die: it is indeed to make up for the inability to enchant a soul knife or upgrade it via magic items. It is essentially a Monk-specific magic dagger that does Psychic damage and +1 damage (on average) on damage rolls.

Beaut. Haven't heard back from my DM yet regarding my request - but we're playing our first game tomorrow night, so I'll definitely bring it up (and have a nice copy for his inspection). I'll let you know if I get to be a guinea pig or not :smallbiggrin:

[DracoKnight]

Beaut. Haven't heard back from my DM yet regarding my request - but we're playing our first game tomorrow night, so I'll definitely bring it up (and have a nice copy for his inspection). I'll let you know if I get to be a guinea pig or not :smallbiggrin:

I look forward to hearing how it goes! As I said, I didn't find any issues with power level or enjoyment in my own playtests, but it's always nice to hear from outside sources. :smallsmile:

[GandalfTheWhite]

Okay, so I played this last night, we're 6th level, and I have to say over all it's quite fantastic. I had a blast playing a monk for the first time in a long time. I think the Soul Knife is a much better fit here, than in the Mystic Class. The only thing that doesn't make sense to me is Elemental Ki...why does this exist? I never found it advantageous to use this over the basic psychic damage. I guess maybe if I went up against something immune to psychic damage...but that's what...4 things?

[DracoKnight]

Okay, so I played this last night, we're 6th level, and I have to say over all it's quite fantastic. I had a blast playing a monk for the first time in a long time. I think the Soul Knife is a much better fit here, than in the Mystic Class. The only thing that doesn't make sense to me is Elemental Ki...why does this exist? I never found it advantageous to use this over the basic psychic damage. I guess maybe if I went up against something immune to psychic damage...but that's what...4 things?

It's intended as a ribbon ability that was included for legacy purposes. But yeah, it also exists for those times when you'd otherwise be screwed by psychic immunity.

[Submortimer]

It's intended as a ribbon ability that was included for legacy purposes. But yeah, it also exists for those times when you'd otherwise be screwed by psychic immunity.

Also for when you can take advantage of a creature's Vulnerability to a damage type.

[Sicarius Victis]

I think what was meant by "still making unarmed attacks to keep up damage" was the fact that while the Knife can effectively be used for Flurry bonus attacks, it can't actually be used for Martial Arts bonus attacks, which means that when the Soulknife is just attacking they'll still be making bonus-action unarmed attacks, unless they just want to lose that normal damage boost.

And for the non-magic-weapon part, my suggestion would be to have the Soulknife get a scaling enhancement bonus as you level up, becoming +1 at 6th level, +2 at 11th level, and +3 at 17th level, or something similar. Makes up for the fact that you're not using a magic weapon, and still lets you use standard Martial Arts damage rather than an entirely different scale.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Official 5e content already uses those distinctions, and it's something you have to look out for in play.
Still. Given that it's a quirky ability in a homebrew subclass, doesn't seem to be any harm in reminding folks how it works.

[GandalfTheWhite]

Still. Given that it's a quirky ability in a homebrew subclass, doesn't seem to be any harm in reminding folks how it works.

It's not that quirky. I mean, if you know the Sun Soul, this works exactly the same way. And I don't see a lot of people without system mastery looking at playing homebrew content.

[DracoKnight]

I think what was meant by "still making unarmed attacks to keep up damage" was the fact that while the Knife can effectively be used for Flurry bonus attacks, it can't actually be used for Martial Arts bonus attacks, which means that when the Soulknife is just attacking they'll still be making bonus-action unarmed attacks, unless they just want to lose that normal damage boost.

I guess I don't understand this. Unless a Soul Knife wanted to Stunning Strike, they can ignore the Martial Arts bonus action attacks. Because they get the same thing from the Ki Blade feature. I guess I don't understand what the gripe about them being able to Flurry, but not being able to use Martial Arts' single bonus action attack is. Flurry is always better than Martial Arts, unless you're out of Ki.

[jaappleton]

I guess I don't understand this. Unless a Soul Knife wanted to Stunning Strike, they can ignore the Martial Arts bonus action attacks. Because they get the same thing from the Ki Blade feature. I guess I don't understand what the gripe about them being able to Flurry, but not being able to use Martial Arts' single bonus action attack is. Flurry is always better than Martial Arts, unless you're out of Ki.

Emphasis mine.

Precisely the gripe. Especially at lower levels, like 6 and below, you can be out of Ki often. I've played with a Monk for awhile, and he was always Flurrying and trying to SS. Sometimes trying SS multiple times per turn, if the enemy would succeed.

Monks have a TON of options with what to do with their Ki. It's easy to deplete that pool.

[DracoKnight]

Emphasis mine.

Precisely the gripe. Especially at lower levels, like 6 and below, you can be out of Ki often. I've played with a Monk for awhile, and he was always Flurrying and trying to SS. Sometimes trying SS multiple times per turn, if the enemy would succeed.

Monks have a TON of options with what to do with their Ki. It's easy to deplete that pool.

Rereading the Martial Arts feature, there is no problem with using the MA BA attack with the Ki Blade. Your Ki Blade counts as a Monk weapon, which is one of the prerequisites to use that attack. You don't see any damage drop off when you run out of Ki.

[jaappleton]

Rereading the Martial Arts feature, there is no problem with using the MA BA attack with the Ki Blade. Your Ki Blade counts as a Monk weapon, which is one of the prerequisites to use that attack. You don't see any damage drop off when you run out of Ki.

Well I was taking your word for it about that being a gripe.

So... ****. :smallbiggrin:

[DracoKnight]

Well I was taking your word for it about that being a gripe.

So... ****. :smallbiggrin:

I thought it was a gripe...but I think people don't remember what Martial Arts does :smalltongue:

[Grod_The_Giant]

It's not that quirky. I mean, if you know the Sun Soul, this works exactly the same way. And I don't see a lot of people without system mastery looking at playing homebrew content.
Not quite the same, since Radiant Sun Bolt doesn't really interact with other abilities in the same way this does.

[DracoKnight]

Not quite the same, since Radiant Sun Bolt doesn't really interact with other abilities in the same way this does.

That's true, RSB is kinda self-contained. Which feels kinda odd now that you point that out.

[jaappleton]

That's true, RSB is kinda self-contained. Which feels kinda odd now that you point that out.

Its completely self contained so you can't cheese it.

Because if it were truly a spell, it'd benefit from the old Undying Light's +Cha to Radiant damaging spells. Which I tried to do, and got my DM to agree to before, but I felt like a dink doing it.

[DracoKnight]

Its completely self contained so you can't cheese it.

Because if it were truly a spell, it'd benefit from the old Undying Light's +Cha to Radiant damaging spells. Which I tried to do, and got my DM to agree to before, but I felt like a dink doing it.

I'm talking about even working with other Monk features. Or having other Sun Soul abilities build off of/work with RSB. It's weird that there's nothing that works with it within its own class.

[Sicarius Victis]

Rereading the Martial Arts feature, there is no problem with using the MA BA attack with the Ki Blade. Your Ki Blade counts as a Monk weapon, which is one of the prerequisites to use that attack. You don't see any damage drop off when you run out of Ki.

The point was not a damage dropoff after running out of Ki, but instead a dropoff if anyone expected or attempted to fight with only the Knife, as opposed to using unarmed attacks as well. This isn't a complaint about it, nor was it ever particularly implied to be, it's an explanation as to why a Soulknife will already be using unarmed attacks in addition to Knife attacks without you having to prevent the Knife from channeling a Stunning Strike.

[DracoKnight]

The point was not a damage dropoff after running out of Ki, but instead a dropoff if anyone expected or attempted to fight with only the Knife, as opposed to using unarmed attacks as well. This isn't a complaint about it, nor was it ever particularly implied to be, it's an explanation as to why a Soulknife will already be using unarmed attacks in addition to Knife attacks without you having to prevent the Knife from channeling a Stunning Strike.

Ah, okay. Thank you for clarifying :smallsmile:

[Requiemforlust]

Wow. I'm surprised so many people got hung up on Ki Blade. I understood the ability and how it worked right off the bat.

Congrats, Draco! We successfully playtested this, and I wasn't too powerful or too weak next to our party's Open Hand monk :smallbiggrin:

[GandalfTheWhite]

Okay, so like Requiem, I finally got a chance to play this. In actual play there are no kinks that need to be worked out. I played in an 11th level game, and everything is very carefully worded, as it turns out. Like Bladewind doesn't call for a "melee weapon attack" just a "melee attack" so you can totally use your Ki Blade with it. And you could argue that there's no point to Bladewind "Monks have 3-4 attacks at that level anyways, why the heck do they need this?" Well, I got surrounded by 8 kobolds (BBEG's minions) and one Bladewind later, they were all dead. That would've taken 2 turns with a monk's standard attack routine. No Opportunity Attacks? Yes please.

All in all, it was great fun to play. I didn't end up feeling useless, and I was on par with the Party's power level. I'd say that this is well-balanced, based on my experience! Well done, MFoV Team!