El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us! [Archive]

Southern Cross

2017-06-17, 05:33 AM

For the new readers, El Goonish Shive is a long-running plot-and-character-driven action-dramedy with elements of teen life, magical kung fu, gender-switching and all-around silly stuff happening. The art has also undergone a massive improvement since the beginning, so don't be too off put by the dramatic difference in quality at the start. It also shifts between "grey-scale" and colour.

Right now, Immortals granting weapon-grade magic to teens and awkward mall dates! Simultaneously!

Previous threads:
El Goonish Shive (2009) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?115992-El-Goonish-Shive)
El Goonish Shive (2010) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?115992-El-Goonish-Shive)
El Goonish Shive (2011-2012) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?191721-El-Goonish-Shive)
El Goonish Shive (2013 -2014) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?278783-El-Goonish-Shive)
El Goonish Shive (2015 -2017) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?411258-El-Goonish-Shive-III-Totally-Adorkable!)
El Goonish Shive II - I stand by my ridiculous comic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?350273-El-Goonish-Shive-II-I-stand-by-my-ridiculous-comic)

Rater202

2017-06-17, 09:55 AM

You um, you've copied or repeated the intro twice.

halfeye

2017-06-17, 12:30 PM

You've also not linked to the immediately previous thread. All of the preceding can be fixed in an edit.

I do approve of the existence of this thread in general.

John Cribati

2017-06-17, 05:35 PM

So what are the odds of Sarah learning that Mr. Raven is "Box's" son.

Doran

2017-06-17, 05:47 PM

If she knows Raven is an elf, and that elves are the children of immortals/fairies, she should be able to make a good guess.

eschmenk

2017-06-17, 06:38 PM

So what are the odds of Sarah learning that Mr. Raven is "Box's" son.

Even if she were told that some guy named "Adrian Raven" was Pandoria's son, I don't think it would mean anything to her. Does Sarah even know Adrian exists? I suppose it's possible Grace might have mentioned him, or maybe Ellen, but even then I'm not sure how much Sarah would pay attention to talk of teachers at another school, so I'm not sure she would remember his name.

I have forgotten tons of things about EGS so I could easily be wrong, but I don't think Grace talked about hunting the huge boar much. She didn't even tell Tedd at first. I don't think any of the kids were aware of Adrian's battle with the wizard, so Sara wouldn't have heard of that. Those are the only things that I can think of that the main kids were involved with and that also may have revealed that Adrian was an elf. That's why I don't think any of them would say anything about him to Sarah, other than possibly mentioning that he's a history teacher.

If Sarah finds out there is a teacher at the other school who is Pandoria's son, I'm sure she will mention it to some of the students who go there, though.

Rater202

2017-06-17, 07:33 PM

Even if she were told that some guy named "Adrian Raven" was Pandoria's son, I don't think it would mean anything to her. Does Sarah even know Adrian exists? I suppose it's possible Grace might have mentioned him, or maybe Ellen, but even then I'm not sure how much Sarah would pay attention to talk of teachers at another school, so I'm not sure she would remember his name.

I have forgotten tons of things about EGS so I could easily be wrong, but I don't think Grace talked about hunting the huge boar much. She didn't even tell Tedd at first. I don't think any of the kids were aware of Adrian's battle with the wizard, so Sara wouldn't have heard of that. Those are the only things that I can think of that the main kids were involved with and that also may have revealed that Adrian was an elf. That's why I don't think any of them would say anything about him to Sarah, other than possibly mentioning that he's a history teacher.

If Sarah finds out there is a teacher at the other school who is Pandoria's son, I'm sure she will mention it to some of the students who go there, though.
Sarah was present when Grace told Jerry they already knew him (http://www.egscomics.com/index.php?id=1121)

Forum Explorer

2017-06-17, 08:30 PM

I'd be surprised if anyone in the main cast isn't aware of Adrian being an elf.

eschmenk

2017-06-17, 09:06 PM

Sarah was present when Grace told Jerry they already knew him (http://www.egscomics.com/index.php?id=1121)

Err. Well, as I said I have forgotten tons of stuff. Thanks.

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-06-17, 09:45 PM

I'd be surprised if anyone in the main cast isn't aware of Adrian being an elf.

Justin might not know. He is kept out of the loop a lot, due to Nanase having a stady girlfriend and Elliot being, well, Elliot, leaving Susan as the only one that talks to him regularly, and from what we've seen, they tend to mostly roleplay and talk about boys.

Not saying it's the case, mind you, just that if he doesn't know, it wouldn't surprise me.

GW

Rater202

2017-06-20, 11:29 PM

So yeah, Sarah knows about Raven and put together that Box was his mother on her own.

Since the next part of the story is "Fairy Great Godmother" per the commentary, I'm assuming that next part is gonna focus Tedd and Pandora, since Pandora is what used to be called a fairy and is Tedd's Godfather's Mother.

Mith

2017-06-28, 05:12 PM

I appreciate this current arc a lot, as it starts resolving some mysteries at long last. I bet Dan is also enjoying being able to get some information out now.

Rater202

2017-06-28, 06:36 PM

Anyone think that Grace and/or Edward are going to come down and complicate the scene because they were awoken by the sound of Tedd yelling a swear?

Mith

2017-06-28, 11:22 PM

If so, my guess is that it will probably be Grace. I think any confrontation between Tedd and Edward will be just them by themselves, and probably not until the sub plot with Noriko starts picking up.

Rater202

2017-06-30, 12:28 AM

I belive I predicted Tedd being/becoming somekind of technowizard, so... yeah, Imma go hatch me some cookies now.

Mith

2017-06-30, 12:38 AM

I did think the gauntlet would only work for Tedd, but less because "Tedd is a technowizard 21st century Seer" and more because no one else needs it. As for the battle gauntlet, that would be hilarious to give to someone like Elliot or Nanase if it would work for them.

This sort of reminds me of my minor rant that I wish the "Enchanting' gauntlet was a left handed gauntlet. That way the right handed Battle Gauntlet could be outfitted to power watches, with the enchantment allowing Tedd to alter on the fly. Basically making him have nigh unlimited potential at his literal fingertips.

Rater202

2017-06-30, 01:04 AM

Braininthejar2

2017-06-30, 06:31 AM

So, he's basically an artificer?

Rater202

2017-06-30, 11:48 AM

The question is, is Tedd Awakened or is he just Dreaming?

eschmenk

2017-06-30, 06:03 PM

The question is, is Tedd Awakened or is he just Dreaming?

I think that he's Awakened. His dad said that wizards "learn other people's spells after they awaken. (http://www.egscomics.com/?date=2008-11-26)" Pandora just said that Tedd has already been learning and using spells. That makes it sound as if he is Awakened, even though Tedd's situation doesn't exactly match his father's description.

If you go by what Tedd said here (http://www.egscomics.com/?id=1947) and ignore his father, one could assume that Awakening for wizards is all about gaining their own spells. (Tedd said that some gain their own spells, but others don't; that could have been due to only some being Awakened.) I don't think that's the case, though.

I am assuming that Pandora didn't screw up and incorrectly assume that Tedd made the glove (rather than Uryuoms doing it or something like that).

Rater202

2017-07-01, 12:08 PM

Am I the only one who wants Tedd to copy Elliot's Cheerledra Spell of Ananse's Guardian Form and build a watch/gauntlet/whatever that replicates it for his own use.

Since, at the end of the double date, he said he was going too fight with the others at the next big things?

The next big thing is coming up...

Mith

2017-07-01, 03:08 PM

I think what would be hilarious is if Tedd gets to through throw Voltaire through a wall. Especially if done in a style similar to Edward vs. Abraham. For the other arcs, it's been Elliot, Grace, and Nanasae who have been the heavy hitters. Let's see what Tedd can do with that gauntlet.

EDIT: typo correction

Southern Cross

2017-07-01, 10:33 PM

Seconded. However, I have to point out a few things - you used "through" twice, and immortals have the incorporeal subtype, so they can't be damaged by being propelled through a wall.

Douglas

2017-07-01, 10:46 PM

Seconded. However, I have to point out a few things - you used "through" twice, and immortals have the incorporeal subtype, so they can't be damaged by being propelled through a wall.
Immortals are capable of interacting by touch, though, so their incorporeality isn't always on. If Voltaire decides to be corporeal for whatever reason and then doesn't react fast enough to change that before impact, throwing him into a wall might actually be able to hurt him.

John Campbell

2017-07-03, 12:21 AM

As a programmer... yeah, Tedd, you should have. I know I always get paranoid and freaked out when I write something non-trivial and it works perfectly on the first try with no debugging required.

Present 2.0

2017-07-04, 03:13 PM

Can i talk about some stupid Shipping Thoughts.

I was a Grace-Tedd-Sarah-Shipper until recently, but now Grace-Elliot-Ted-Ashley appeals more to me. Propably because of the new Ship Teases between Tedd and Elliot. Grace would propably be okay with it and Ashley is basically some sort of uholy Fusion of the other three, so she could get along with them.

But maybe i can still fit Sarah in there... and let Susan watch.

Rater202

2017-07-04, 03:23 PM

But maybe i can still fit Sarah in there... and let Susan watch.

And Ellen thinks Tedd is cute, and Elliot might be somewhere in the Bi-spectrum and one form likes Justin, and then Sarah's maybe date with Sam goes well, and Nanase gets bitten by the "twin-fetish" bug and Diane, Rhoda, and catlina get involved somehow, and Noah, and it all ends with at least a dozen Tedds of various sexes and body types making out in the basement.

We've all read that fanfic bro.

Present 2.0

2017-07-04, 03:34 PM

I wanted to keep it within plausible parameters.

You forgot Charlotte, Luke, George, Larry, Melissa and Carol.

Also Link please?

Could it be, that EGS has the largest semi-plausible OTX-Pairing? Other Candidates would be Sense8 and mybe Justice League and Avengers.

Rater202

2017-07-04, 03:45 PM

I wanted to keep it within plausible parameters.

Dude, that is plausible.

EGS is one of those fandoms where "screw it, cuddle pile" is one of the most viable ways of approaching the Shipping Chart.

(Kingdom Hearts is another)

Present 2.0

2017-07-04, 11:00 PM

We've all read that fanfic bro.

You still haven't given me a Link to that Fanfic, that you've all read.

Rater202

2017-07-04, 11:08 PM

You still haven't given me a Link to that Fanfic, that you've all read.

...
Grace: Tedd says that if I'm Superman, he's Batman
Sarah: And you're dating, I think I've read that fanfic.

Was joke.

Apologies.

As for today's page... Either Pandora needs to tone it down a notch because if Tedd didn't wake up the house that sure did, or...

...I have to wonder if this isn't how Lord Tedd happened. His Pandora botched the delivery of this knowledge.

Landis963

2017-07-04, 11:13 PM

...I have to wonder if this isn't how Lord Tedd happened. His Pandora botched the delivery of this knowledge.

Was actually coming to post something just like this. Do you want Lord Tedd, Pandora? Because this is how you get Lord Tedd.

Rater202

2017-07-04, 11:24 PM

Was actually coming to post something just like this. Do you want Lord Tedd, Pandora? Because this is how you get Lord Tedd.

To be fair, I don't think that Pandora knows about Lord Tedd.

But if Tedd's dream has something to do with Lord Tedd, then Lord Tedd was presumably a lot like our Tedd was before he met Grace and his circle of friends grew past Elliot and maybe Sarah--back when he was a shy, heavilyy introverted jerk with no confidence.

Or Second Life Tedd, who never really outgrew his shyness.

And then someone he cares about dies...

If his Pandora came in and delivered this knowledge to a Tedd in that state... Instant God Complex

eschmenk

2017-07-07, 07:25 AM

New comic (http://www.egscomics.com/index.php?id=2370)

Tedd is concerned that being good or evil is a matter of what friends he has. Tedd's friends influencing his moral alignment makes more sense to me than thinking it was what Pandora said. Once they knew about the abilities, Tedd / Lord Tedd would have figured out the ramifications themselves, whether or not Pandora said, "For you are mighty..."

My guess is that the difference is in Lord Tedd's universe, human Grace didn't die and her DNA wasn't used to create Shade Tail. Shade Tail wound up evil and was a bad influence when he befriended Lord Tedd.

Rater202

2017-07-07, 10:21 AM

I've come to the conclusion that an actual Lord Tedd arc will be the last thing that happens in EGs.

John Campbell

2017-07-07, 02:21 PM

"That's how 'good' works, right? I mean, you tell me. I'm just guessing here. Don't look at me like that, it says 'Chaotic Neutral' on my character sheet."

JeenLeen

2017-07-12, 12:34 PM

"That's how 'good' works, right? I mean, you tell me. I'm just guessing here. Don't look at me like that, it says 'Chaotic Neutral' on my character sheet."

From today's new comic:

I like that Pandora has the personal insight to realize she wouldn't be a good influence.

I've often wondered how much the 'more insightful' aspect of an Immortal's growing power causes them to instantly be able to read and intuit human motivations and thoughts. Like, in the side story about Pandora marking people, if she was using magic to read what folks really wanted to transform into or if her passive senses just allowed her to do that like we can see an obvious facial expression. Such as she can intuit enough about people to act in a way that she knows will likely cause the desired effect. That could be tied to her current boredom with manipulating people, since it's too easy (usually) to anticipate how they will act.

Hmm... maybe I'll ask that in the next Q&A Dan does.

Rater202

2017-07-13, 11:39 PM

This would be the worst possible time for Edward to come down to find out what everyone is yelling about.

Rater202

2017-07-18, 04:11 PM

Silva Stormrage

2017-07-18, 11:24 PM

Forgive the double post, but... Arthur has apparently unilaterally decided on behalf of the entire world to just let the situation escalate until magic takes it's ball and goes home.

Voltaire's plan is dependant on this happening.

Is it possible that Arthur was influenced by Voltaire?

Possibly? I mean it seems pretty inline with what Arthur wants so I don't think Voltaire really needs to manipulate or influence Arthur at all? The most I could see is if Voltaire was the one who first informed Arthur about how magic can change.

On the new story comic
I am really surprised how much I find the last couple pages and story arcs with Pandora switched her from being one of my least favorite characters to one of my favorite. It's a really quite interesting development and her rant about being a parent was pretty well done in the last page.

Rater202

2017-07-18, 11:52 PM

Silva Stormrage

2017-07-19, 12:12 AM

Checking the links in the commentary... Mr. Nerd-Muscles, the guy who is apparently in charge of the EGS FBI, counts himself among the people who would raise hell if Mr. Veres was fired.

So... he'd raise hell to himself if he fired Mr. Veres?

I think he was the person in charge of firing Mr. Veres if he had to but he would raise hell if he was pressured into it by *his* higher ups. Thats how I read it anyway.

Douglas

2017-07-19, 01:14 AM

This is looking increasingly like Pandora will soon accept that she truly needs to reset, for the sake of her loved ones. It may come down to her choosing a specific list of things she needs to finish up first, and then resetting immediately after. Depending on what she chooses, this could be very helpful or exceedingly inconvenient - having her out of commission right when major things start happening because she finished the list quickly could be bad, but whatever she does pick is going to be done by someone supremely capable.

Or maybe she'll just try to seek help with maintaining her focus and stability, or seek such help to help her last through finishing her list.

What if magic resets and Pandora resets at about the same time, and Sarah still hasn't Awakened? Newborn Pandora trying to figure out the new magic system right alongside Sarah (and Tedd) in order to fulfill her Vow could be interesting.

Rater202

2017-07-21, 12:00 AM

Does anyone have a list of spells we know that Tedd has seen that fit the "Wand" format?

Or is Pandora just going to teach him a spell to put in the wand?

Yuki Akuma

2017-07-21, 09:38 AM

Does anyone have a list of spells we know that Tedd has seen that fit the "Wand" format?

Or is Pandora just going to teach him a spell to put in the wand?

Most of Ellen's spells are fairly wand-able. This is assuming that wands can't be used to cast self-targeting spells, which we don't necessarily have any reason to believe. If they can cast self-targeting spells, well, most of the spells Tedd knows will work.

halfeye

2017-07-21, 06:48 PM

With reference to the commentories on today's and Wednesday's ECSNP, pigtails are plaits.

Rater202

2017-07-21, 11:54 PM

Does Pandora look... Tired, to anyone else? In the last two strips I mean?

memnarch

2017-07-22, 12:48 AM

Does Pandora look... Tired, to anyone else? In the last two strips I mean?

Weary would be the way I'd put it, but yeah.

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-07-22, 07:49 AM

Does Pandora look... Tired, to anyone else? In the last two strips I mean?

She's supposed to look tired. Like she says, it exhausts her to maintain control, and she's been on an emotional rollercoaster which I'm sure does not help the matter. It was easier for her to be the mad schemer.

GW

Rater202

2017-07-22, 01:17 PM

Landis963

2017-07-26, 07:18 PM

I'm just saying... Let's say that Pandora decides, after this, to make the next part of her life about helping people and doing good things for her family, things her late husband might have aproved of... If maintaining her compusure for so long is so exhasting, then she might have to spend a lot of time resting to keep herself from going into "power to bend worlds" mode and screwing it up.

Meaning that we can have Pandora as a long term ally without Pandora having to reset--She's a great asset when she's there, but she'd go crazier than she already is if she was there to help with every little things.

It would probably be more optimal, in almost every way, for Pandora to reset. She's more erratic, more scheming, and less reliant on Blaike's example when she's tired, and there's no reason to assume that her "emotional rollercoaster," as Grey Wolf put it, will get any easier to handle going forward. Also, if she takes the time out to rest after every crisis, that adds a layer of unreliability to whatever assistance Pandora can provide. That plus the fact that she can't do much beyond guide and empower (leaving aside her ability to jimmy each and every loophole she comes across to semitruck-size). Also, it's kinder on her relationship with Adrian if she stops doing the things that caused their relationship to sour in the first place, things which come much easier to her with every passing century.

Lastly, any future reset removes a story-breaking level of power from Elliott's camp (notice how useless Jerry became after his reset).

Rater202

2017-07-26, 07:50 PM

A big problem with resettting though, is that it's literally replacing a character that we've gotten to know with a completely differant character--it would not be Raven's Mother, blaike's Wife, Tedd's Fairy Great Godmother, Sarah's Friend Box, or anyone else.

the vow would keep her arround... but everything about Pandora that we actually care about and actually makes her an intersting character to keep around goes away in a reset--she might even end up going back into an antagonisti role "God Damn it Pandora, this girl is so stupid! Why did you promise to help her urgh this is so boring!"

"Why do I care what this elf thinks? He's not my kid."

"Who the hell was Blaike?"

"Hey, Tedd, do bad things! It'll be a riot!"

Comparing what we know about Jerry's youth to his new self, and how the French Immortals are still screwing people over for the sake of having vampire killers present despite amnesia, so... I mean,that's probably how a hypothetical Nu-Pandora would end up.

I mean, I don't see how what is essentially ritualized suicide followed by reincarnation into a different person is going to repair her relationship with her son--it just means that she's dead.

Raven didn't tell her that, when this was done she should reset. He told her to help people. And Tedd agrees with her descison not to reset to be their for her family(Tedd being one of the few people she gives a damn about.)

I just think that, narratively, it makes more sense for Pandora not to reset. If you're seriously worried about her story breaker powers, well, she could swear a vow to limit herself to methods that she thinks a Saner Immortal would abide by to limit herself in an attempt to help herself stay sane... Or find a therapist.

Or spend a lot of time away from town doing good deeds in an attempt to win back her Son's love.

Or you know, just be the insane mentor to Tedd and Sarah and in general not actually only acting in a supporting role.

Though I would like the events in Moperville to get Tedd nand Friends exposed wide as having magical powers, Arther deciding to do something about it, and Pandora apearing before him and explaining exactly why he was going to leave them alone.

Douglas

2017-07-26, 09:00 PM

--she might even end up going back into an antagonisti role "God Damn it Pandora, this girl is so stupid! Why did you promise to help her urgh this is so boring!"

"Why do I care what this elf thinks? He's not my kid."

"Who the hell was Blaike?"

"Hey, Tedd, do bad things! It'll be a riot!"

Comparing what we know about Jerry's youth to his new self, and how the French Immortals are still screwing people over for the sake of having vampire killers present despite amnesia, so... I mean,that's probably how a hypothetical Nu-Pandora would end up.
Pandora's original plan (http://www.egscomics.com/index.php?id=2214) involved having her next incarnation join Adrian's family. Since she had the intelligence of a 150+ year old immortal at the time and knew her own basic nature, I would expect that a newly reset Pandora would be the kind of person to follow through on that plan.

Sure, new Jerry resented old Jerry's vow, but his objection was that he expected it to be boring, not that he disagreed with it.

Rater202

2017-07-27, 04:48 PM

Pandora's original plan assumed that her husband would have died of old age when she was good and ready to let him pass.

From what we've seen in this arc and prior arcs, it doesn't seem in character for Pandora to deliberately reset, and it's not like having a ridiculously overpowered ally is a bad thing--as an immortal Pandora is already limited in what she can and can't do to help Tedd and co, and most of the problems that our cast solves don't actually involve combat problems--Box can't exactly help Tedd tell his dad that he's genderfluid, right? She can't help assuage those fears.

All she can do, really, is give advice and help them awaken... Maybe teach Tedd (or other wizards in the main cast if it turns out that one or more others are ones) new spells to play with, or do research for them...

...and I think Sarah's the only one who can practically awaken who hasn't already.

Regardless, would Pandora, even a Pandora who did a full 180 in morality, would she even try to solve all the main cast's problems? Or would she help Sarah awaken and then be the crazy mentor who shows up to provide important information every so often and is otherwise off elsewhere?

I mean, we've already got a baby immortal allied to the main cast. We don't need two, and I think that there are more story oportunities in having a crazy mentor than their are in having a second one.

The only way I could see Pandora resetting is if she either 1: Somehow abuses vows to pass all of her knowledge and memories into her next self, thus trading power for sanity while remaining otherwise unchanged, which I'm not sure is even possible(So thus, it'd still be the same character instead of someone else with clinicle knowledge if some of Pandora's experiances) or if she deliberatly broke the rules to protect Tedd, Raven, or Sarah from something(I can tolerate a heroic sacrifice)

Anyway, there has been shouting, dramatic immortals, and bright glowy magic.

Are the chances of Grace or Edward having been woken up and coming down to check on what's happening any higher now than they were earliar?

halfeye

2017-07-27, 05:08 PM

Rater202

2017-07-27, 11:58 PM

If Pandora resets, who or what deals with Voltaire?

I want to see Pandora being very direct with that guy.

that too.

Also, I feel like Dan could have sped it up a bit more.

Calemyr

2017-08-03, 10:38 AM

Pandora's core character is mischievous but not malevolent. She wanted to play a prank on Blaike, but when she realized he would be in genuine danger she got worried enough to repeatedly try to intervene. In short, she's a lot like Jerry, I think, wanting to cause trouble without really causing harm. She's naturally reluctant to take things seriously, but when she does, she takes them very seriously and will go to any lengths, no matter how destructive, to achieve a goal she's set on.

I'm almost certain she will not willingly reset herself. She will always find a reason to continue on, even as she admits her growing instability is detriment to her purpose. I do not believe, however, she will have any compunctions left for preserving her current incarnation. If an action would complete a goal, or contribute meaningfully to the completion of a goal, but the action would cause her to reset (either through "death" or through communal judgment), however, I don't imagine her having any qualms about the sacrifice. Maybe enough hesitation to meaningfully turn to the people she's with, say a few words, and then act.

Reborn, however, she could be a very interesting character. Jerry just wants to party, the twins seem to want to create heroes rather than rely on authority, and Voltaire seems to resent the boundaries the immortals have put upon themselves (i.e. he wants to play a more active role in the world, much like Adrian), but I think Pandora simply just cares. About everything she does, about everything around her. As a newborn, she could serve as a counterpoint to Grace as a caring individual, but where Grace's driving goal is peace and happiness, Pandora's would be growth and well-being. Her own growth, of course, but that of everyone she cares for. She would be a trickster mentor, of course, manipulating people onto paths that would help them mature. But I could see her trying hard to help Tedd develop into the kind of seer he'd be proud to be, or Sarah into the mage she dreams of being. Not because of some vow (though there is that), but because that is who she is. I can also see the group growing to fear her interference as much as they do Tedd's dad, even as they realize its benevolent intent.

Also, there's the fact that a newborn Pandora would be (relatively) sane, whereas the current Pandora has to fight tooth and claw to keep herself in check. Imagine being suddenly sane and having to look at all the chaos you created because "you were bored". I mean, this wouldn't just be like a hangover story, it'd be the story of waking up after a 300,000 night bender and trying to piece together what the hell you did in that time from the disaster in your wake. I don't think she'd just shrug that off. Imagine her being conflicted about her past self's intentions vs her aftermath. "How could my past self simultaneously be so smart and so flipping STUPID!?!?"

Finally, there's the nice symmetry that could come from it. Assuming that Pandora's not likely to reset properly, but also likely to reset in a heroic fashion, who would be fit (and willing) to take this addled kid in? (So she doesn't turn into a loose cannon like the twins, with no pre-installed memories to guide her.) My money would be on Adrian. It would just be right, you know?

So... yeah. That's my take on Pandora. She wouldn't work as a regular until after a reset, but at that point? I see wonderful possibilities, though only Shive can tell if they'll pan out.

Rater202

2017-08-03, 12:28 PM

Also, there's the fact that a newborn Pandora would be (relatively) sane, whereas the current Pandora has to fight tooth and claw to keep herself in check. Imagine being suddenly sane and having to look at all the chaos you created because "you were bored". I mean, this wouldn't just be like a hangover story, it'd be the story of waking up after a 300,000 night bender and trying to piece together what the hell you did in that time from the disaster in your wake. I don't think she'd just shrug that off. Imagine her being conflicted about her past self's intentions vs her aftermath. "How could my past self simultaneously be so smart and so flipping STUPID!?!?"1: Again, we already have a reccuring baby immortal. We don't need two.

2: You are aware that you're suggesting that we eliminate a character's defining conflict whenit's only just become a major issue for the character.

3: Pandora would die. If Pandora resets, then for all intents and purposes she would be dead and Nu-Pandora would be a completly seperate character, so resetting doesn't change or develop Pandora's caracter, it stops all character development.

So... yeah. That's my take on Pandora. She wouldn't work as a regular until after a reset, but at that point? I see wonderful possibilities, though only Shive can tell if they'll pan out.Pandora is already a regular.

eschmenk

2017-08-03, 12:43 PM

Pandora has become an interesting character recently, so I'm not eager to have her reset. If she does, I hope Magus's situation is resolved first. That's been going on for a long time.

Also, there's the fact that a newborn Pandora would be (relatively) sane, whereas the current Pandora has to fight tooth and claw to keep herself in check. Imagine being suddenly sane and having to look at all the chaos you created because "you were bored". I mean, this wouldn't just be like a hangover story, it'd be the story of waking up after a 300,000 night bender and trying to piece together what the hell you did in that time from the disaster in your wake. I don't think she'd just shrug that off. Imagine her being conflicted about her past self's intentions vs her aftermath. "How could my past self simultaneously be so smart and so flipping STUPID!?!?"

IDK. We haven't seen the immortals care much about anything and in particular we haven't seen them dig into their histories much. I don't know why the next Pandora would feel that she owned any responsibility for what the old one did. Granted, the old Pandora may pass some information to the new one about requirements and may even swear oaths, but IIRC so far we've only seen the new immortals being rather annoyed by such things as they obey them.

Granted, we have seen Pandora care about the well-being of others, but that was apparently only because Blaike's rejection of of her help interested her (http://www.egscomics.com/index.php?id=2212) and then she fell in love with him then later she became protective of anyone she included in her extended family and anyone they were interested in. I don't think that would necessarily carry over after a reset. Perhaps she might pass along the advice that helping people can be fun and challenging and is a good way to avoid boredom to her new self, though.

Rater202

2017-08-04, 12:34 AM

Is Tedd's quick acceptance of Pandora as a maternal figure sad, heartwarming, or both?

Regardless, it's another reason for Pandora to not reset.

Lord Raziere

2017-08-04, 01:05 AM

Is Tedd's quick acceptance of Pandora as a maternal figure sad, heartwarming, or both?

Rater, take it from someone who knows:
when you lack a parental feeling in your life, and you find someone who gives you that feeling when you feel empty otherwise? you take what you can get.

though I question if Pandora is truly crazy. I think she is just really eccentric and immortals don't have a good term for what you get like past 200 years so they say "crazy" and try not to find out more just to be better safe than sorry.

Rater202

2017-08-04, 01:56 AM

The Otaku Immortal's face in panel three is horrifying. It's like a she's a resident of Innsmouth.

This NP storyline isn't canon though, at least not yet, so... Tedd did swear to try and bring back the hammers. Think he'll ask his Godmother for help with that?

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-08-04, 08:24 AM

though I question if Pandora is truly crazy. I think she is just really eccentric and immortals don't have a good term for what you get like past 200 years so they say "crazy" and try not to find out more just to be better safe than sorry.

The term is not as much "crazy" as it is "unstable". Yes, as long as she is holding herself together, she will still be her. But when she forgets to do so, well we're back to the demented immortal that does cruel things for the lulz (because her empathy is no longer recognizing others as sentient) or hatches dangerous plots with dangerous people because it breaks the monotony.

GW

Rater202

2017-08-05, 03:26 AM

Does anyone else Elliot's cat-form and/or Tedd's belt to make a return?

Rater202

2017-08-10, 04:40 PM

Um... a thought occurs to me.

There is a minor recurring character called the screaming blonde: She screamed in a panic and incites such when the Goo attacked in Sister and then later screamed and called animal control when the "evil monkey" was spotted in Sister II.

Her role in the story is to scream whenever there's a monster at Moperville North, basically, and in the commentary of the evil monkey strip, Dan said that even if he wanted to use someone else, he had to for the Bloodgrem because it was a sequel.

We are currently in Sister III, we know that there's a small army of Mercenary Aberrations, and Aberrations are known to pre-emptively kill potential vampire slayers. There is a potential vampire slayer at North.

I am... Susan and Diane aren't gonna be talking at the mall food court or whatever their plan was on Friday. They're probably going to talk at the Veres residence when everybody regroups there after a fight with a bunch of man eating monsters at both schools.

Forgive the double post.

eschmenk

2017-08-10, 06:50 PM

I am... Susan and Diane aren't gonna be talking at the mall food court or whatever their plan was on Friday. They're probably going to talk at the Veres residence when everybody regroups there after a fight with a bunch of man eating monsters at both schools.

I wouldn't be surprised if they get together at the Veres residence, but given the trouble Jerry seemed to be in (http://www.egscomics.com/index.php?id=2340) while watching Susan, I'm not absolutely certain that Susan will make it to school before being attacked. I think it's more likely that the intent is to protect Susan and whoever is responsible is simply concerned that Jerry is a threat to her, though, so yeah, an attack on her at school could easily happen, screaming blonde and all.

Rater202

2017-08-10, 07:09 PM

I wouldn't be surprised if they get together at the Veres residence, but given the trouble Jerry seemed to be in (http://www.egscomics.com/index.php?id=2340) while watching Susan, I'm not absolutely certain that Susan will make it to school before being attacked. I think it's more likely that the intent is to protect Susan and whoever is responsible is simply concerned that Jerry is a threat to her, though, so yeah, an attack on her at school could easily happen, screaming blonde and all.

that was wednesday night.

If she was't in school on Thursday, I think it would have been mentioned.

Thus, I find it unlikely that, whether the thingy has good or ill intentions for her, it's not an indication that she won't make to to school Friday.

eschmenk

2017-08-10, 07:56 PM

Yeah, I missed that it said it was Wednesday night. Thanks.

Rater202

2017-08-11, 01:03 AM

Oh, this had better not mean that she's planning to reset before she sees Tedd again.

It'd better just mean she's expecting to let the people she loves down or hurt them inadvertently through her actions...

Or while in a less lucid period.

Douglas

2017-08-16, 02:10 AM

New comic (http://www.egscomics.com/?id=2386)

Called it! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?527596-El-Goonish-ShIVe-Damn-It-Dan-Stop-Teasing-Us!&p=22209318&viewfull=1#post22209318) (with coda by Rater202 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?527596-El-Goonish-ShIVe-Damn-It-Dan-Stop-Teasing-Us!&p=22239166&viewfull=1#post22239166), kind of)

With the way this story has been set up, the way it's heading, and the basic nature of EGS stories, I'm expecting Pandora's idea to work. She'll be out of commission for a few weeks, then return with much less power and much less knowledge, but much more stability and the bulk of her feelings, personality, and character intact.

I expect she'll still be in full unstable-and-powerful mode when Voltaire's Friday night plan goes down, though. Pandora's planning to tell Adrian about her lie and apologize on Saturday, and there's no way she'll risk going back on that.

Rater202

2017-08-16, 02:34 AM

...She's not just gonna assume she can do it, right?

She's gonna do research, try and force more past-self memories, or go back to Heka to double check,
right?

At the very least, she should probably vow to never forget her friends, family, or what they mean to her beforehand--which would also solve the "I'll forget about Tedd again" problem, I think. Invasive thoughts would push her back on track.

eschmenk

2017-08-16, 09:09 PM

Qwertystop

2017-08-16, 09:14 PM

Actually, that would be an interesting way to retain memories. Put the memories in the vow! You wouldn't ever be able to escape it.

As-written, that might just result in reminders equivalent to having it told to you.

Lord Raziere

2017-08-16, 09:15 PM

Actually, that would be an interesting way to retain memories. Put the memories in the vow! You wouldn't ever be able to escape it.

"I vow to always remember and care for my family"?

Boom. I think that would do it for her.

Douglas

2017-08-16, 10:19 PM

I don't think vows actually change what you are capable of doing, they merely provide very strong motivation to use your existing capabilities to fulfill them. So, Pandora could vow to always stay with and protect her family, but it would not do anything to help keep memories through a reset.

Rater202

2017-08-17, 12:13 AM

I'd go back to when Nu-Jerry tried to break his Vow and immediately got Old Jerry saying "I vowed."

Pandora vowing to always remember her friends and family and what they mean to her... in the Short Term, it would remind her of their existence if she forgot about them again.

In the long term, it would stop her from resetting until she was absolutely sure she could pass her actual memories and feelings onto her next self, and thus, prevent her from doing the stupid.

Also... couldn't she like, write down the most important knowledge she needs? Like everything she knows about seers, how to help someone awaken, the little knowlede that her friends and family might need for her.(In particular, not knowing ways to help someone awaken is gonna be nessesary for her Vow to Sarah.)

I'm assuming that Dan showing off all of Ellen's spells is evidence that magic isn't going to change. Since the bad guy and the jerk are both trying to make it change and EGS is a series where the bad guys loose, and becuase it would be a waste to show off new spells just to have them go byby.

Actually, the thought occurs to me that... Come to school, is Tedd gonna talk to Sarah and be like "hey, do you remember how I said I wasn't a wizard at the tournement the other day? ...Yeah, I met Box... turns out she's my fairy godmother... and well, guess who has two thumbs and is somekind of hyper specialized super wizard?"

JeenLeen

2017-08-23, 02:56 PM

Rater202

2017-08-23, 06:33 PM

Question from new comic:
So, do you think 'comically evil guy' was possessed by an aberration, and that this possessing aberration is the one criticizing the 'gonna eat you' aberration?
Or is it a dude beyond 'comically evil guy'?

Upon hearing about the bonus if nobody extra dies, I thought we'd see two aberrations fighting. This is more amusing.

ComicallyEvil guy was literally just someone that Dan could show being killed and eaten without feeling bad.

Elitist Abberation is clearly someone separate.

Also, I kind of want to hug Hanma-chan.

JeenLeen

2017-08-23, 08:35 PM

ComicallyEvil guy was literally just someone that Dan could show being killed and eaten without feeling bad.

Elitist Abberation is clearly someone separate.

Also, I kind of want to hug Hanma-chan.

So, do you think they all just lost the 25% bonus, since monstrous aberration ate a dude? Or did the scarfed aberration interrupt the meal, so comically evil guy is still going to do his comical evil?

EDIT: just realized that the events with comically evil dude probably happened before the signal, so no consequences. I'll still leave my question in the spoilers.

eschmenk

2017-08-23, 10:06 PM

So, do you think they all just lost the 25% bonus, since monstrous aberration ate a dude? Or did the scarfed aberration interrupt the meal, so comically evil guy is still going to do his comical evil?

EDIT: just realized that the events with comically evil dude probably happened before the signal, so no consequences. I'll still leave my question in the spoilers.

Also, I doubt that, other than the two aberrations, anyone will know that the comically evil guy was killed. I think his entire body is being eaten.

Douglas

2017-08-23, 10:54 PM

Also, I doubt that, other than the two aberrations, anyone will know that the comically evil guy was killed. I think his entire body is being eaten.
Like the eater said, less evidence his way. Plus, I rather doubt an aberration, being completely amoral, would report it when it would negate his own 25% bonus pay. I think the only way that bonus might be in peril, at any point in this story, is if they kill someone and leave evidence of it for a non-aberration (or Sirleck himself) to find. Or, you know, if the entire operation gets busted by the main cast.

Rater202

2017-08-24, 12:35 AM

Like the eater said, less evidence his way. Plus, I rather doubt an aberration, being completely amoral, would report it when it would negate his own 25% bonus pay. I think the only way that bonus might be in peril, at any point in this story, is if they kill someone and leave evidence of it for a non-aberration (or Sirleck himself) to find. Or, you know, if the entire operation gets busted by the main cast.

...I now what the Entire Crew at Moperville North to find out about the attack at South and, conened for their loved ones, all flee North go provide Backup.

I'm sure that Tedd could easily fit the Cheerledra form and Project a Magic Weapon with Anti-Aberation properties spells into his Wand, Pandora said it had plenty of Room and if Tedd truly is a font of power it's not like he needs a lot of room for energy in the Wand.

And then he simply has to tranform everyone but Elliot and Arm everyone but Susan.

Unless, for some reason, he feels the need to rbing his Gauntlet and uses that instead.

Or maybe North is in the Way to Sourth from where the Abberations are coming.

I want the Entire Main Cast and the combat capable supporting Cast(So Raven, Noah, Greg, and Mr. Verres basically) fighting side by side for a change... Screw it, I want Mr. Verres to call in Back Up when he finds out how many Abberations are in Moperville and openly attacking and call in as many favors as he needs to go over Arthur's head if need be and get that swat-team from Painted Black and Grace's Siblings here.

I want Magic to come this close to changing, and then Tedd looks right in a live News Feed, explains exactly who is is and what he's capable of and declares that he'll bring MAgic Back as many times as it takes to the whole World so it might as well not change at all, and then Pandora apears behind him and Vows to help him keep that promise, protecting him from any fallout that might come from Arthur since the bastard apparently decided to unilaterally get rid of Magic.

Douglas

2017-08-24, 01:06 AM

Well, the plan is to get Magus his body back (with Sirlek planning to then steal it), which by all revealed information requires Ellen zapping Elliot. Since Elliot goes to North and Ellen goes to South, either the plan includes some step to bring them together or it takes place after school, possibly both. So there should definitely be some form of cross-school event coming up. Plus, with how long this confrontation has been in the works in the real world, and how many different threads have been pulled in so far for this arc, I'm expecting the climax to be massively huge.

Rater202

2017-08-24, 01:36 AM

Douglas

2017-08-25, 03:08 PM

New NP

Prediction for Susan's first advice point: Scratch the "unsuspecting" part.

halfeye

2017-08-29, 01:53 PM

I wasn't expecting a hiatus, was one notified while I wasn't taking notice?

Rater202

2017-08-29, 02:29 PM

He's having technical issues, he says as much on the front page.

There's details on the EGS twitter.

Vinyadan

2017-09-04, 09:37 AM

Ladies and gentlemen, see what could have been done in a panel take up a whole page :smallbiggrin:

Douglas

2017-09-05, 10:31 AM

Rater202

2017-09-05, 11:40 AM

Regarding NP, I think I'm vaguely remembering what Dan is referring to, but not more than that and I don't want to spend the time and effort to look it up. Could someone please summarize (in a spoiler block) the details of that incident, and in particular how it goes horribly wrong?

The Harry Potter example of forced infatuation going horribly wrong?

Merope Gaunt was a descendant of Salazar Slytherin from a branch that was so inbred that they could barely magic--Merope never went to hogwarts and was abused by the others, and so wasn't able to magic until her father and brother ended up elsewhere.

she had a thing for a Muggle by the name of Tom Riddle and, once her incredibly racist relatives were gone,
she ensnared him with a love potion and ran off with him--even conceiving a child. Becuase the child was born under the effect of a love potion, the child's abiillty to experiance love was hampered--essentially he was predisposed to narasistic psychopathy, though WoG is that if he'd been raised with love the child would have turned out, if not a good person, than at least a fuctional and productive member of socity.

However, after the child was conceived, Merope stopped feeding Tom love potions--maybe she believed that he'd come to love her for real or maybe that he'd stay for the baby...

However... 1: The Riddles were a bunch of rich A-holes and Tom was no exception, and 2: Tom was justifiably horrified at being ensorcelled into loving and copulating with an ugly inbred hag with violent relatives. The second meant he ran at the first opportunity, and the first meant that he didn't give two craps about the child he left behind. Merope died of a broken heart after her son was born, living just long enough to name him Tom after his father and Marvolo after her own.(the implication is that she could have lived--could have used magic tokeep herself alive, but she chose to die. Although she wasn't tha t bright--she sold two proicless family herlooms, one which turned out to be an absurdly powerful artifact, for pocket change.)

For those of you who don't remember the climax of HPatCoS: "Tom Marvolo Riddle"="I am Lord Voldemort."

Wizard Hitler happened becuase an inbred idiot fell in love with a rich jackass and decided to make him become infatuated with her with magic, then died to leave him to be raised without what he needed to make him a good person despite that.

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-09-05, 12:06 PM

Becuase the child was born under the effect of a love potion, the child's abiillty to experiance love was hampered--essentially he was predisposed to narasistic psychopathy

Wait, is that canon? I thought that was just a widespread fanon.

Also,
A second incident is the repeated attempts by Romilda Vane to get Harry to be her boyfriend by slipping him a love potion, which Ron ends up taking by mistake, and so warps his mind that he attacks Harry for not being as infatuated with Romilda as he is.

GW

Douglas

2017-09-05, 02:33 PM

The Harry Potter example of forced infatuation going horribly wrong?

Merope Gaunt was a descendant of Salazar Slytherin from a branch that was so inbred that they could barely magic--Merope never went to hogwarts and was abused by the others, and so wasn't able to magic until her father and brother ended up elsewhere.

she had a thing for a Muggle by the name of Tom Riddle and, once her incredibly racist relatives were gone,
she ensnared him with a love potion and ran off with him--even conceiving a child. Becuase the child was born under the effect of a love potion, the child's abiillty to experiance love was hampered--essentially he was predisposed to narasistic psychopathy, though WoG is that if he'd been raised with love the child would have turned out, if not a good person, than at least a fuctional and productive member of socity.

However, after the child was conceived, Merope stopped feeding Tom love potions--maybe she believed that he'd come to love her for real or maybe that he'd stay for the baby...

However... 1: The Riddles were a bunch of rich A-holes and Tom was no exception, and 2: Tom was justifiably horrified at being ensorcelled into loving and copulating with an ugly inbred hag with violent relatives. The second meant he ran at the first opportunity, and the first meant that he didn't give two craps about the child he left behind. Merope died of a broken heart after her son was born, living just long enough to name him Tom after his father and Marvolo after her own.(the implication is that she could have lived--could have used magic tokeep herself alive, but she chose to die. Although she wasn't tha t bright--she sold two proicless family herlooms, one which turned out to be an absurdly powerful artifact, for pocket change.)

For those of you who don't remember the climax of HPatCoS: "Tom Marvolo Riddle"="I am Lord Voldemort."

Wizard Hitler happened becuase an inbred idiot fell in love with a rich jackass and decided to make him become infatuated with her with magic, then died to leave him to be raised without what he needed to make him a good person despite that.
Is that background story shown in any of the movies, though? I don't remember anything about that in the movies (though it's been long enough I could easily have forgotten it), and Hanma is being educated specifically by watching the movies.

Wait, is that canon? I thought that was just a widespread fanon.

Also,
A second incident is the repeated attempts by Romilda Vane to get Harry to be her boyfriend by slipping him a love potion, which Ron ends up taking by mistake, and so warps his mind that he attacks Harry for not being as infatuated with Romilda as he is.

GW
That's the one I was thinking of. Just how bad does it get?

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-09-05, 02:39 PM

Is that background story shown in any of the movies, though? I don't remember anything about that in the movies (though it's been long enough I could easily have forgotten it), and Hanma is being educated specifically by watching the movies.
I don't recall myself, but it's a big detail to leave out. That said, in the books the focus is on Merope- she's portrayed as the victim, desperate to get herself a happy life, and making horrible decisions because she's been abused and simply can't figure out how to not be abusive herself.

That's the one I was thinking of. Just how bad does it get?

It's played for laughs, mostly, from what I can recall: Ron being particularly pathetic about his obsession.

Honestly, I also am unsure why someone'd pick the HP films to educate on the dangers of magical means of coercion. Maybe it's the scenes touching on the Imperio curse instead? Moody's lesson on it is quite well written, in the books at least.

Grey Wolf

Qwertystop

2017-09-05, 02:52 PM

Agreed there. There's a couple of examples in HP... but Imperio is in fourth year, and all the love-potion stuff comes up in sixth, and none of it takes up a large fraction of the movies involved. That's a lot of movie-watching for a relatively small amount of relevant content, especially if they were starting from Sorcerer's/Philosopher's Stone to give background.

Tono

2017-09-05, 05:25 PM

Huh. I thought referencing Ranma would be the low hanging fruit here. Its been a decade but I am preeeettttyyyyy sure that show would have mind control and bad involuntary magic in spades.

Rater202

2017-09-05, 05:41 PM

Wait, is that canon? I thought that was just a widespread fanon.

*waves hand half-heartedly*

It's a little of both. It's based on something Rowling said, but a lot of people take it out of context to make it a bigger deal than it is--Joe's line was that being conceived under the effect of a love potion was a contributing factor to how Voldemort ended up, while some people blame the whole thing on it.

At the same time, Rowling said that he wouldn't have gotten as bad if he'd been raised with love, so...

Vinyadan

2017-09-05, 06:49 PM

she had a thing for a Muggle by the name of Tom Riddle and, once her incredibly racist relatives were gone,
she ensnared him with a love potion and ran off with him--even conceiving a child. Becuase the child was born under the effect of a love potion, the child's abiillty to experiance love was hampered--essentially he was predisposed to narasistic psychopathy, though WoG is that if he'd been raised with love the child would have turned out, if not a good person, than at least a fuctional and productive member of socity.

You know, I would have expected the opposite -- being raised with love bringing him to be good while not healing his mental handicap.

Anyway, it's an interesting story, because 1. HP and his parents love and so on and 2. JR herself is a single mother.

Rater202

2017-09-05, 08:01 PM

You know, I would have expected the opposite -- being raised with love bringing him to be good while not healing his mental handicap.

IT's not so much a mental handicap as... Tom M. Riddle was an excellent student, very smart, very charismatic, a natural-born leader--the only reason he didn't become the Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher right out of Hogwarts is becuase the headmaster at the time wanted someone with more life experiance.

He was also a cold-hearted sociopath with an inflated sense of self-worth, and this was apparent from the day Professor Dumbledore came to give him his Hogwarts letter--he was excited at being special, but the second Albus said that the barman wat the Leaky Cauldron was also named Tom his mood turned sour.

Someone like that has little to no ability to empathize with others and tend to have less of a moral compass... but you can teach morals and empathy if only on an intellectual level. What I took away from the comment is that if Tom had been raised with Love, he would have ended up like that.

Douglas

2017-09-06, 01:51 AM

I just realized: This mechanic could end up affecting Susan, since she'll be one of the players.

Susan. With boosted physical attraction.

This has serious potential for otherwise very rare and out of character scenes. Not that the whole game isn't full of such things, but this one in particular seems noteworthy.

Rater202

2017-09-06, 07:18 AM

Um... Is anyone else getting "Velma" vibes from Ashley's redesign?

I'm calling it, she's gonna end up in Nanase and Ellen's group when the crap hits the fan and everyone is fighting vampires all over town.

Quiver

2017-09-07, 02:19 PM

Am I the only one wondering if Hanma is canon?

I mean... the situation, obviously, isn't. We know this whole storyline is non-canon.
Buuuuut, I get the impression Dan is having fun writing Hanma and her quirks, so I wonder if there will be a "canon" version of Hanma in the storyline at some point.

Douglas

2017-09-07, 02:35 PM

Quiver

2017-09-08, 04:20 PM

No need to wonder, Dan has already stated (http://www.egscomics.com/egsnp.php?id=652) that she is (see the commentary).

...Well, obviously I need to read the commentary more thoroughly in the future.:smalltongue: Sorry for the dumb question!

Douglas

2017-09-11, 07:54 PM

With the way the scenes keep jumping around, I'm getting the feeling that keeping all of these plot threads chronologically synchronized is going to be important for this part of the story, possibly so that when the violence starts we'll already know exactly where everyone is at that exact time and how they got there. It would do a lot to minimize apparent ass-pulls and help track how the various parts of The Plan relate to each other.

alwaysbebatman

2017-09-15, 09:37 AM

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_TFiB3e3_J4

I teleported. It's impressive.

Mith

2017-09-15, 11:09 PM

My thoughts on the NP: if Rhoda can shrink people/objects around a point within sight, that gives a really useful ability, and amusing implications as to where she was looking at the time.

Qwertystop

2017-09-15, 11:26 PM

My thoughts on the NP: if Rhoda can shrink people/objects around a point within sight, that gives a really useful ability, and amusing implications as to where she was looking at the time.

No reason for the centerpoint of the shrinking to be the centerpoint of her visual focus. She's not looking at the waitress in the prior. If her physical actions have relevance, it's more likely to do with where her hand is pointing.

I'm more curious about her arm. Didn't even get mentioned in the commentary but that's ridiculous.

Douglas

2017-09-16, 12:46 AM

I'm more curious about her arm. Didn't even get mentioned in the commentary but that's ridiculous.
What about it? Extending the length of her arm is a simple and straightforward application of size-changing magic, which is what she has a talent for.

Qwertystop

2017-09-16, 09:57 AM

What about it? Extending the length of her arm is a simple and straightforward application of size-changing magic, which is what she has a talent for.

I don't think she previously demonstrated an ability to change just part of something, though?

Douglas

2017-09-16, 01:11 PM

I don't think she previously demonstrated an ability to change just part of something, though?
In Escape From the Mall, a quick flashback (http://www.egscomics.com/egsnp.php?id=537), the third hypothetical (http://www.egscomics.com/egsnp.php?id=567), and what she actually does to Kitty (http://www.egscomics.com/egsnp.php?id=569).

Qwertystop

2017-09-16, 01:42 PM

In Escape From the Mall, a quick flashback (http://www.egscomics.com/egsnp.php?id=537), the third hypothetical (http://www.egscomics.com/egsnp.php?id=567), and what she actually does to Kitty (http://www.egscomics.com/egsnp.php?id=569).

...how on earth did I forget all that?

Mith

2017-09-16, 05:31 PM

I don't think she previously demonstrated an ability to change just part of something, though?

Expanding bust size is an example of this, isn't it?

Rater202

2017-09-18, 09:55 AM

Is the website down for anyone else or is it just me?

Tono

2017-09-18, 09:57 AM

Looks like it is down for everyone. (http://www.isitdownrightnow.com/egscomics.com.html)

halfeye

2017-09-18, 10:15 AM

The site was okay a couple of hours ago.

Today's comic was about Nanase being unsure about Eliot's new girlfriend's <I forgot name, and can't check with the site down> motivations.

Rater202

2017-09-18, 12:27 PM

The site was okay a couple of hours ago.

Today's comic was about Nanase being unsure about Eliot's new girlfriend's <I forgot name, and can't check with the site down> motivations.

It's back up.And her name is Ashley.

Silva Stormrage

2017-09-20, 07:26 AM

Latest comic:
A remarkably interesting point of view and covers up one of the complaints I had about Arthur. It also makes his character seem a lot more pragmatic and sane. Also it's one of the few times this kind of viewpoint is brought up in stories that I can remember, "Why on earth would I try to outwit a force of nature that is nigh omniscient and much more powerful than me". While quite a lot of stories involve someone trying that and it not ending well for them

JeenLeen

2017-09-20, 07:46 AM

Today's comic

Something about Sybil's words and appearance made me think she might be Voltaire in disguise. Her words seem like they'd push Voltaire's agenda (guiding him to make magic change), and she looks vaguely not-quite-human, but maybe that's Dan's art style for folk with chubby faces. Just her face looks different from most people in the comic.

But the commentary today made me dismiss that.
Also, I reckon they'd have security for impostors. We know that Verres knows a spell to check for impostors (what he used on Eliot when shapeshifted), and I reckon that'd work on immortals unless we had reason to think otherwise. And it'd be hard to take the time to be a full-time secretary for a guy who probably works a lot of hours beyond 9-5.

Rater202

2017-09-20, 09:01 AM

Arthur unilaterally deciding to steal magic from everyone and put a lot of FBI agents and their presumed counterparts from elsewhere in the world out of the job confirmed.

He's still a ****, and I hope that when the incident inevitably happens, Tedd looks right into a live broadcast and declares exactly who and what he is and what he's capable of ant that he'll force magic to stay put if possible, becuase, fearing that the incident is too much, it's going to change.

Or, alternatively, that a Seer' Hidden purpose is to decide how magic changes and Tedd becomes that Seer, and he puts it right the way it used to... but makes it harder for bad people to get magic

And then Pandora apears behind him and vows to support him in this plan and do everything in her power to prevent people from taking action against Tedd or his frineds and family

and Arthur is watching, and fuming impotently because he doesn't want an angry immortal out for his blood.

And optionally gets glared out by the several wizards and normal spellcasters who work for the FBI. Possibly fired.

But I'm serious, have EGS go full unmasked world here.

JeenLeen

2017-09-25, 04:00 PM

Hmm... my post today is similar to my last one.

Anyone else think that 'Ellen' in today's comic might not be Ellen? The frantic running reminded me of Jerry from a couple comics back.

Well, I think it's either foreshadowing a 'guidance' of Nanase or this is some foreshadowing of Nanase feeling slightly offended at Ellen. She seems to have slightly hurt feelings about the rush up--get answer--go.

TaRix

2017-09-26, 01:37 PM

So, who thinks Raven's going to survive the night? I'd hedge and say a little better than even probability, much less if Tedd finds out about Raven's relationship with his parents.

Side bet: When will tomorrow arrive? I'd say...August 2018. Optimistically. :smallsmile:

Rater202

2017-09-26, 02:33 PM

The Extinguisher

2017-09-26, 03:03 PM

Raven's going to make it for the sole reason that Pandora will be ****ing pissed if he doesn't.

Still, I want this to be the arc where everybody who knows how to fight gets too. I want the main eight to all fight together for once.

Im expecting smaller fights to break out as the night happens, everyone (including side characters) meet up and fight a swarm of baddies, then they split up again, only for the main 8 to fight the final boss of the night (with one day that's just a really badass picture of all 8 of them)

August next year seems like a pretty generous estimate I think.

Rater202

2017-09-27, 07:47 AM

Im expecting smaller fights to break out as the night happens, everyone (including side characters) meet up and fight a swarm of baddies, then they split up again, only for the main 8 to fight the final boss of the night (with one day that's just a really badass picture of all 8 of them)

August next year seems like a pretty generous estimate I think.

The question is, however, since I'm pretty sure that either magic isn't going to change or it's going to change in ways that let the main characters and their imediate supporting cast keep their spells(since why would Dan go out of his way to show off all of Ellen's spells or clarify that the spells that Rhoda can do in Goonmaji are canon if they'd be gone?)

...We've already got Cheerledra and Shade Tail. Would the other six also get Super-Hero names?

Qwertystop

2017-09-27, 08:49 AM

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-09-27, 08:53 AM

...We've already got Cheerledra and Shade Tail. Would the other six also get Super-Hero names?

We also have Charlie's Charlotte's Angels, so that leaves only 4 more to go.

GW

Rater202

2017-09-27, 08:54 AM

That doesn't mean changes won't be drastic. They might be being showed off to illustrate the magnitude of the difference (between the current and new systems), for example. Or the main change might be in how more spells are gained.

Im just saying, Dan went to a lot of effort to show off what the cast can do, and it's not like him to throw things away like that.

Also, he doesn't like hurting his characters and most of them would be upset by losing their powers.

I'm honestly expecting that Tedd will force magic not to change by making it publicaly known that he/any identity he uses to protect himself is a Seer and that he'll keep bringing magic back as long as it takes.

As for names... How many differant ways are there, right now, to alter someone's form? Combined with the Uryuom work-suits and communicator watches that got used once? and Nanase's angel form?

Calemyr

2017-09-27, 09:03 AM

The question is, however, since I'm pretty sure that either magic isn't going to change or it's going to change in ways that let the main characters and their imediate supporting cast keep their spells(since why would Dan go out of his way to show off all of Ellen's spells or clarify that the spells that Rhoda can do in Goonmaji are canon if they'd be gone?)

...We've already got Cheerledra and Shade Tail. Would the other six also get Super-Hero names?

I don't know. What's the point of changing magic if it doesn't have any impact? If magic changed and nobody had any established magic, there wouldn't be any meaning to pointing out that it changed. Now, however, it would have impact. You have characters like Ellen who are born of magic, characters like Elliot who are psychologically dependent on magic, and characters like Susan and Nanase where magic has been a long-established part of their lives. Changing magic now would pull the rug under everyone. But Tedd's there, so Moperville would pick magic up again fast and effectively become a major focal point of magic in a way that hasn't existed in centuries. I don't know who around her has played Final Fantasy 3 (for the SNES, it's Final Fantasy 6 everywhere else), but, well... some of the game's best storytelling happens after the heroes fail to save the day.

I'll be honest, I kinda hope it does reset. As interesting as it may be, I don't really like the effect it's been having on Elliot, who is pretty much addicted to mind altering magic as a means of escaping himself. Watching him go through withdrawal and have to face his issues would be good, I think. He's done it before, such as with his relationships with Sarah and Susan, but this would be a much larger obstacle for him to overcome and lead to much more growth as a person.

Adaon Nightwind

2017-09-27, 10:08 AM

I sure do hope everyone will get out of this alive. I can accept it if there will be casualties - this is not my story to tell, but only to hang on for the ride, and there a lot of reasons i could think of that *might* make it a good story. But i do agree that Dan is not in the habit of having characters killed, and he also knows how many feelings a person can invest into a well-developed fictional character.

That said, even thinking about "losing" a specific character like that hit me pretty hard. I am quite glad that it is not an established business model to create a story, making people fall for it and than demanding money for keeping the characters alive.

@Grey_Wolf_c: Is it not "Charlotte's Angels"? :smallwink:

Rater202

2017-09-27, 10:46 AM

I don't know. What's the point of changing magic if it doesn't have any impact? If magic changed and nobody had any established magic, there wouldn't be any meaning to pointing out that it changed. Now, however, it would have impact. You have characters like Ellen who are born of magic, characters like Elliot who are psychologically dependent on magic, and characters like Susan and Nanase where magic has been a long-established part of their lives. Changing magic now would pull the rug under everyone. But Tedd's there, so Moperville would pick magic up again fast and effectively become a major focal point of magic in a way that hasn't existed in centuries. I don't know who around her has played Final Fantasy 3 (for the SNES, it's Final Fantasy 6 everywhere else), but, well... some of the game's best storytelling happens after the heroes fail to save the day.

I'll be honest, I kinda hope it does reset. As interesting as it may be, I don't really like the effect it's been having on Elliot, who is pretty much addicted to mind altering magic as a means of escaping himself. Watching him go through withdrawal and have to face his issues would be good, I think. He's done it before, such as with his relationships with Sarah and Susan, but this would be a much larger obstacle for him to overcome and lead to much more growth as a person.

1: the bold, coupled with the details that Dan has revealed, is more evidence to magic not changing than it is to it changing at all.

2:you need to read the commentaries. Elliot isn't addicted to mind altering magic to escape himself, per Dan's own comments Elliot's gender identity is "non-commital grunt."(elliot being based in part on Dan himself)

He's not like Tedd, but elliot honestly doesn't give a damn once he got over the shock and now the gender changing stuff is a cool power.

I repeat, Dan is not the kind of person who would go to the effort of having Elliot get a new spell, showing off all of ellen's spells and how they work, establishing which minor characters are magical prodigies, and showing off what spells they can do in canon just to throw all of that work away. Especially since it would hurt a lot of his characters and he doesn't like doing that.

Magic most likely will not change.

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-09-27, 10:48 AM

Magic most likely will not change.

Unless, of course, there is a storyline in which e.g. Ted slowly figures out how to restore said cool powers under the new rules to each of those characters.

@Grey_Wolf_c: Is it not "Charlotte's Angels"? :smallwink:
Edited. Thanks. (Insert here reference to wars with Eastasia)

GW

Rater202

2017-09-27, 12:10 PM

Unless, of course, there is a storyline in which e.g. Ted slowly figures out how to restore said cool powers under the new rules to each of those characters.

You know as well as I do that Dan would never get that storyline done. We've still got no idea what the za is up with Lord Tedd.

Unless of course the secret hidden purpose of Seer's involves one of them deciding how Magic Works and Tedd wanting to restore his friends powers bad enough that he forces magic to work more or less the way it did but harder for bad people to get, in which case such a storyline would take a few months tops because of how ridiculously easy it would be.

Qwertystop

2017-09-27, 01:24 PM

You know as well as I do that Dan would never get that storyline done. We've still got no idea what the za is up with Lord Tedd.

Unless of course the secret hidden purpose of Seer's involves one of them deciding how Magic Works and Tedd wanting to restore his friends powers bad enough that he forces magic to work more or less the way it did but harder for bad people to get, in which case such a storyline would take a few months tops because of how ridiculously easy it would be.

Dunno. That could be quite interesting - if Tedd has a vote but no guarantee, or if it's a give-and-take process, there could be some neat stories coming from whatever else comes along with "harder for bad people to get".

For example, the definition of "bad." I don't think EGS is going to go there, that's a bit deeper than it's gone and not really in-theme with how morality has been handled to this point, but it could be interesting in theory.

Calemyr

2017-09-27, 04:03 PM

2:you need to read the commentaries. Elliot isn't addicted to mind altering magic to escape himself, per Dan's own comments Elliot's gender identity is "non-commital grunt."(elliot being based in part on Dan himself)

He's not like Tedd, but elliot honestly doesn't give a damn once he got over the shock and now the gender changing stuff is a cool power.

I repeat, Dan is not the kind of person who would go to the effort of having Elliot get a new spell, showing off all of ellen's spells and how they work, establishing which minor characters are magical prodigies, and showing off what spells they can do in canon just to throw all of that work away. Especially since it would hurt a lot of his characters and he doesn't like doing that.

Magic most likely will not change.

The addiction I'm talking about is not about "going female", it's about "going Heidi". He likes being Heidi, because she's everything he doesn't think he can be: funny, friendly, outgoing, open, and happy. His friends have warned him a couple of times now about how that transformation in particular (the alter egos) is the real mind-warping deal, not just screwing with a little biochemical grease to ease a physical transformation. He still does it, though, with the unease of someone sneaking drugs in their backpack. Because he wants a "vacation from myself". That's where I think his character growth can come from.

As for magic changing... well... who knows. Dan has done some fairly drastic things before. He broke up Elliot and Sarah because he felt he solidified that relationship too quickly and that it didn't have a chance to develop naturally, so clean the board and start anew. See, from a narrative standpoint, I think "saving magic" would be a good story, but a bit cliche. Heroes make it in time, heroes save the day, status quo is preserved. A failure, on the other hand, would be a much more interesting story. The heroes lose everything they had, struggle to deal with their loss and their failure, but the seeds are sewn for a new iteration of magic that will be better than the last. It also would likely result in a dead space in the narrative that would allow Dan to skip forward to the college age he's stated he originally wanted the story to be set in. An age where alcohol (among other things) could be included that are not considered acceptable for minors.

Most importantly, however, is Tedd's Seer status. We know he's a wand maker now, that's great, but there's a second function a Seer serves, and it's important that the Seer be intelligent, sane, and morally good. My bet is that they play a role in the form magic takes in the next iteration, as long as they aren't doing it consciously. This means that the next iteration of magic will be (as long as Tedd is unaware of it) a Tedd-style school. That means naturally high resistances in people so that unwelcomed magic is less effective and an even heavier focus on transformational types of magic than before.

So we've got the tool to change magic, the setup to make that change carry weight, the tool to restart magic in a new (and more Shive-ly) manner, all geared up and ready to roll. Sure, they might save the day, but a soft reboot that lets the setting reflect his current sensibilities rather than his high school fancies might not be out of the question either. A good storyteller could make either path work, is all I'm really saying, and I hold that Dan Shive is a good storyteller. He'll do whatever he feels he can get the best results from.

Edit: My theory about the Seer is basically that the phrase is somewhat literal, with a variation on the ol' Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle. The principle suggests that an observer influences events simply by observing them. Apply it to magic, give a wizard the ability to "see" magic in its embryonic state, and let the wizard alter how it develops simply by observing it. It begins to reflect the "Seer". A good Seer would create something comforting and exciting, while an evil Seer would create something horrifying and cruel. But Magic will not allow itself to be controlled, so any awareness on the part of the Seer of this transaction invalidates it: you can't force magic to be good, but magic can follow your example. This would inherently mean that magic's life cycle would rejuvenate itself compatible with a contemporary mindset each time it resets. It currently is arcane and obtuse, reflecting a dark age of castles and kings. What would it become if modern minds molded it? Phone apps?

Rater202

2017-09-27, 04:28 PM

there is a significant difference between a relationship running it's course and being terminated and getting rid of 90 of the cool stuff from the comic's almost 20 year run.

halfeye

2017-09-27, 07:11 PM

It currently is arcane and obtuse, reflecting a dark age of castles and kings. What would it become if modern minds molded it? Phone apps?

Information technology inspired magic? That could be good and bad, but it ought to be interesting. Are we sure that it's currently from an age of castles and kings? Pandora's quote sounded earlier than that to me. I personally think she hasn't reset in several thousand years, and the last reset of magic was before hers.

Calemyr

2017-09-27, 09:08 PM

Information technology inspired magic? That could be good and bad, but it ought to be interesting. Are we sure that it's currently from an age of castles and kings? Pandora's quote sounded earlier than that to me. I personally think she hasn't reset in several thousand years, and the last reset of magic was before hers.

Hmm... I could have sworn her retelling that story included a shot of a castle, but now I can't find one. Dragons (http://www.egscomics.com/index.php?id=2211), though, so there's that. I don't know if the image is from elsewhere in the comic or if it's just what I envisioned when reading her recitation of the event. My bad.

I guess my reasoning is:
Still, let's see... In her conversation with the Emissary (http://www.egscomics.com/index.php?id=2223), she says that her memory of the last reset was from her previous incarnation, which the Emissary took to mean that it happened during her previous incarnation. Pandora is pretty cagey when it comes to her age, unfortunately, so everything is guesswork after that. Her age is consistently measured in centuries, as is the Dewitchery Diamond, which was tied to Blaike's death (the Unwaking Beast would have been the "Ellen" half of a dewitched werewolf, as she clearly labels Abraham as the man responsible for it (http://www.egscomics.com/index.php?id=2290)). She says she's been claiming to be 299 for a few centuries (http://www.egscomics.com/egsnp.php?id=300) at this point, she's at least 600, which would put her rebirth around 1400 or earlier, though I doubt it'd be much earlier than 1200 (more than that and her statement would be misleading - she doesn't want to directly answer Sarah's question but also clearly doesn't want to lie to her, either). Since she has her previous incarnation's memories intact, her previous incarnation was able to reset properly, so probably pulled the standard 200 year "lifespan". That would mean that magic would have reset sometime between 1000 and 1400 AD, depending on how precise she was when she said "a few centuries". That's more or less the later half of the middle ages and the start of the Renaissance, which would be "castles and kings".
Take from that strained logic what you will.

halfeye

2017-09-28, 12:54 PM

Hmm... I could have sworn her retelling that story included a shot of a castle, but now I can't find one. Dragons (http://www.egscomics.com/index.php?id=2211), though, so there's that. I don't know if the image is from elsewhere in the comic or if it's just what I envisioned when reading her recitation of the event. My bad.

I guess my reasoning is:
Still, let's see... In her conversation with the Emissary (http://www.egscomics.com/index.php?id=2223), she says that her memory of the last reset was from her previous incarnation, which the Emissary took to mean that it happened during her previous incarnation. Pandora is pretty cagey when it comes to her age, unfortunately, so everything is guesswork after that. Her age is consistently measured in centuries, as is the Dewitchery Diamond, which was tied to Blaike's death (the Unwaking Beast would have been the "Ellen" half of a dewitched werewolf, as she clearly labels Abraham as the man responsible for it (http://www.egscomics.com/index.php?id=2290)). She says she's been claiming to be 299 for a few centuries (http://www.egscomics.com/egsnp.php?id=300) at this point, she's at least 600, which would put her rebirth around 1400 or earlier, though I doubt it'd be much earlier than 1200 (more than that and her statement would be misleading - she doesn't want to directly answer Sarah's question but also clearly doesn't want to lie to her, either). Since she has her previous incarnation's memories intact, her previous incarnation was able to reset properly, so probably pulled the standard 200 year "lifespan". That would mean that magic would have reset sometime between 1000 and 1400 AD, depending on how precise she was when she said "a few centuries". That's more or less the later half of the middle ages and the start of the Renaissance, which would be "castles and kings".
Take from that strained logic what you will.

Well, I disagree. First off, she does say that she's been claiming to be 299 years old (300 years old more or less) for a "few" centuries. "Few" is a pretty vague word, it originally meant four (which would take us to 700 years), but in the Battle of Britain "the Few" were about a thousand pilots, if you included groundcrew and telephonists etc. it's probably more like fifty thousand. I don't think Pandora is admitting to being older than civilisation, since she claimed the name Pandora from the legend, but I don't know how old the oldest version of that legend is, and I wouldn't be surprised if she picked it up months after it's inception. I'm not saying it's proved that she's that old, there are some mild hints that she might be, for instance the emissary saying "but magic last changed..." as if that date was unbelievable, but it's certainly not proved.

The world of EGS is not the real world, there, there were werewolves, and they were ended by Pandora, here that legend is a recent thing I believe.

Forum Explorer

2017-09-28, 01:37 PM

there is a significant difference between a relationship running it's course and being terminated and getting rid of 90 of the cool stuff from the comic's almost 20 year run.

The comic has built up a lot of clutter in that 20 years, and this could be a good time to 'clean house' so to say. Though by that logic, I'd expect a few characters to die in this upcoming fight.

Rater202

2017-09-28, 01:44 PM

The comic has built up a lot of clutter in that 20 years, and this could be a good time to 'clean house' so to say. Though by that logic, I'd expect a few characters to die in this upcoming fight.

"Literally the entire established system of magic, possibly all of Tedd's cool stuff, and the special powers that Dan went out of his way to show us and confirm were canon" is not clutter.

Edit: Dan is also on the record as hating hurting his characters and he created an exaggeratedly evil person so he wouldn't feel bad killing off an extra.

Nobody important is going to die. People will be imperiled, they may be harmed, but no one is dying.

Lord Raziere

2017-09-28, 01:54 PM

No! No!!! No Reset Madness! Not my EGS! Resets only produces more stupid continuity than it gets rid of! Please no! We don't need the DC/Marvel stupidity spreading like a plague upon all things good and sacred!

*runs off crying to write "NO RESET MADNESS" on the walls over and over again like a crazy person*

I'm not joking. really, screw that.

Forum Explorer

2017-09-28, 02:13 PM

"Literally the entire established system of magic, possibly all of Tedd's cool stuff, and the special powers that Dan went out of his way to show us and confirm were canon" is not clutter.

Edit: Dan is also on the record as hating hurting his characters and he created an exaggeratedly evil person so he wouldn't feel bad killing off an extra.

Nobody important is going to die. People will be imperiled, they may be harmed, but no one is dying.

I know, and I consider that a flaw in his writing. He gets way too attached to his characters. Or perhaps I should say, he's way too big of a fan of his own characters?

It kinda is. Everyone is magic, and now it's kinda like 'so now what?'. I mean, lets say they win. Everything goes back to normal, things calm down, Sarah gets magic, magic doesn't change, and they go back to living their ordinary lives. And magic will become very mundane. It will still be there, but with no real tension or wonder to it.

If magic goes public, and thus changes, there is a lot more drama and tension in dealing with those changes. Everyone will have to deal with it in various ways, Tedd's seer powers will matter, Pandora will need to figure it out as well as keeping her oath to Sarah. And so on and so forth.

Rater202

2017-09-28, 02:37 PM

I know, and I consider that a flaw in his writing. He gets way too attached to his characters. Or perhaps I should say, he's way too big of a fan of his own characters?

It kinda is. Everyone is magic, and now it's kinda like 'so now what?'. I mean, lets say they win. Everything goes back to normal, things calm down, Sarah gets magic, magic doesn't change, and they go back to living their ordinary lives. And magic will become very mundane. It will still be there, but with no real tension or wonder to it.

If magic goes public, and thus changes, there is a lot more drama and tension in dealing with those changes. Everyone will have to deal with it in various ways, Tedd's seer powers will matter, Pandora will need to figure it out as well as keeping her oath to Sarah. And so on and so forth.

Option 3: Tedd/Tedd's Secret Identity says on live Telivision that his power is understanding how magic works, that magic might change, but he'll keep bringing it back as many times as he has to until magic agrees to play by what he considers fair rules. something something hidden purpose/something something Tedd's actually capable of bringing it back/something something Magic's inner drama geek squeels about how cool it is, it works.

EGS is now a full unmasked World setting, Arthur and Voltaire are pissed off, setting up the possibility of further conflift down the line, and if Tedd isn't using a secret identity Noriko might comeback becuase Tedd's a super-wizard.

Massive shake-up to the status quo, it's now full-fledged urban fantasy/superheroes setting with SoL elements instead of the other way around.

I repeat, we had an entire storyline about what spells Ellen had and Dan went out of his way to establish that all the spells Rhoda used in the one NP were canon. Dan is not going to flush alll of that down the toilet, that's not the kind of author he is.

(Especially since the show off Ellen's spells were done concurrently with Sister 3. There would be no point of showing us that if Ellen was never going to get to use them in canon.)

And Magus' plan is set to come to fruition this arc, and that's dependant on both the Dewitchery Diamond and Ellen's version of FV5, both of which would stop working if Magic changed.

We still don't know jack about Lord Tedd. Noriko is still out there. We don't know if Sarah is going to end up with Sam or in a Trio with Grace and Tedd. Tedd still wants to find a way to use magic to help everyone. Dan promised us more stuff with Kitty and Transwoman-Submissive friend who wants to be her pet catgirl.(I forgot her name)

All that that is stuff that can be done without magic changing. A lot of it will get harder to do if magic changes.

halfeye

2017-09-28, 04:22 PM

We don't know if Sarah is going to end up with Sam or in a Trio with Grace and Tedd.

I suspect that what will happen there will be Sam saying "Actually, I'm trans." and Sarah saying "Oh? That's not for me thanks." and then Sarah ending up with Larry.

Douglas

2017-09-28, 07:35 PM

I suspect that what will happen there will be Sam saying "Actually, I'm trans." and Sarah saying "Oh? That's not for me thanks." and then Sarah ending up with Larry.
With all the sex-changing magic and technology she has access to? Unless you're suggesting Sarah would misinterpret it as Sam being girl-in-guy's-body instead of the actual case, I'd expect her first reaction to be struggling to hide her laughter at just how thoroughly it is not a problem, followed by realizing she might not be free to tell and frantically trying to explain without either revealing too much or offending him.

halfeye

2017-09-28, 10:05 PM

With all the sex-changing magic and technology she has access to? Unless you're suggesting Sarah would misinterpret it as Sam being girl-in-guy's-body instead of the actual case, I'd expect her first reaction to be struggling to hide her laughter at just how thoroughly it is not a problem, followed by realizing she might not be free to tell and frantically trying to explain without either revealing too much or offending him.

I don't know what you think the actual case is, from:

http://www.egscomics.com/index.php?id=1906

I am under the impression that Sam is Samantha, and trans. I'm not saying Sarah will be uncool with that (she'll probably arrange some deal with Ted to simplify things), but I don't think she'll be interested in a relationship with Samantha either. I am guessing about Sarah's reaction, I think she's not a bigot about gay or bi-sexual people, but I think we've been shown so far that she isn't one herself (my memory is rubbish, there may be something I'm not remembering).

Douglas

2017-09-28, 10:18 PM

I don't know what you think the actual case is, from:

http://www.egscomics.com/index.php?id=1906

I am under the impression that Sam is Samantha, and trans. I'm not saying Sarah will be uncool with that (she'll probably arrange some deal with Ted to simplify things), but I don't think she'll be interested in a relationship with Samantha either. I am guessing about Sarah's reaction, I think she's not a bigot about gay or bi-sexual people, but I think we've been shown so far that she isn't one herself (my memory is rubbish, there may be something I'm not remembering).
I think the actual case is that Sam is the guy-in-girl's-body variety of trans, and I'm saying Sarah would want to solve the problem by providing female-to-male transformation to Sam. Sam becomes male physically as well as mentally, Sam's gender dysphoria problem is solved, Sarah's orientation is satisfied, everyone's happy. Except Mr. Verres and his government associates who don't want knowledge of magic spreading.

Qwertystop

2017-09-28, 10:21 PM

I don't know what you think the actual case is, from:

http://www.egscomics.com/index.php?id=1906

I am under the impression that Sam is Samantha, and trans. I'm not saying Sarah will be uncool with that (she'll probably arrange some deal with Ted to simplify things), but I don't think she'll be interested in a relationship with Samantha either. I am guessing about Sarah's reaction, I think she's not a bigot about gay or bi-sexual people, but I think we've been shown so far that she isn't one herself (my memory is rubbish, there may be something I'm not remembering).

I don't think anyone here thought Sam was FtM, just that Sarah might misunderstand as such.

I don't understand why you think Sarah, despite not being a bigot, would thus... turn down Sam? Not even sure what the verb is here. What does whether or not Sarah is trans have to do with anything?

Yuki Akuma

2017-09-29, 03:01 AM

Ibrinar

2017-09-29, 06:42 AM

Im just saying, Dan went to a lot of effort to show off what the cast can do, and it's not like him to throw things away like that.

Also, he doesn't like hurting his characters and most of them would be upset by losing their powers.

I'm honestly expecting that Tedd will force magic not to change by making it publicaly known that he/any identity he uses to protect himself is a Seer and that he'll keep bringing magic back as long as it takes.

As for names... How many differant ways are there, right now, to alter someone's form? Combined with the Uryuom work-suits and communicator watches that got used once? and Nanase's angel form?

I won't exclude the possibility that that is how it will go but that sounds like a terrible idea when dealing with a intelligent power that makes the new rules.

I sure do hope everyone will get out of this alive. I can accept it if there will be casualties - this is not my story to tell, but only to hang on for the ride, and there a lot of reasons i could think of that *might* make it a good story. But i do agree that Dan is not in the habit of having characters killed, and he also knows how many feelings a person can invest into a well-developed fictional character.

That said, even thinking about "losing" a specific character like that hit me pretty hard. I am quite glad that it is not an established business model to create a story, making people fall for it and than demanding money for keeping the characters alive.

@Grey_Wolf_c: Is it not "Charlotte's Angels"? :smallwink:
Oh paying to keep characters alive, that is genius! Of course you can't demand it directly people would dislike that but if you have sad a subscription or premium fan club deal and the members sometimes get to vote on things about the story and conveniently you create a fake faction of members that want to get the characters killed…

Rater202

2017-09-29, 08:23 AM

Sarah herself has claimed to not be fully heterosexual (like a 1 on the Kinsey scale if I remember right) but I can't really find the comic she talks about that in.

But seriously, it would be very strange for Sarah to be bothered by Sam being a boy who was born with the wrong dangly bits.She mentions "one on the Kinsey Scale" at the most when Larry misunderstands her explanation of why she doens'rt like him hitting on her and calls her a lesbian in an "I'm this at the most" and then claims to be a one on the Kinsey scale outright("or still a one") in the "MV5" NP arc... which interstingly enough takes place before the Card Tournment.

Regardless, MV5 heavily implies that Sarah is in denial because she is clearly strongly attracted to both Ellen and Grace. I'm not saying she's "Totes Bi" on the example scale, but she's higher than a one.
I won't exclude the possibility that that is how it will go but that sounds like a terrible idea when dealing with a intelligent power that makes the new rules.

Not only is Tedd a Seer, but he's, per Pandora(who presumably learned from Heka) prodigious at the abilities of a Seer.

And the one thing that's consistent, through all the reveals about the nature and functionality of his tech, is that Tedd is a genious when it comes to magic-items and alien technology.

If anybody can threaten to keep bringing back and exposing magic until it agrees to stop changing, it'd be Tedd.

Especially if Pandora helps(depending on how her refreshing works, when she does it, and how much of her magical knowledge she keeps)

halfeye

2017-09-29, 10:03 AM

I don't think anyone here thought Sam was FtM, just that Sarah might misunderstand as such.

FtM means? I for one think that Sam is a person with female bits who wants to have male bits.

I don't understand why you think Sarah, despite not being a bigot, would thus... turn down Sam? Not even sure what the verb is here. What does whether or not Sarah is trans have to do with anything?

I'm pretty sure no-one has previously suggested Sarah is trans.

"I don't know", that's how I feel about sex and gender in general, I find it all confusing. I read bits of:

http://www.wildflowerslgbt.ca/comics/

and I don't understand that, I haven't read the most recent ones, because it's been walls of text.

It seems that sometimes that trans people get changed, then hook up with people of the sex they changed to, I don't understand whether that is usual?

In short, it's complicated and I know I don't understand.

Qwertystop

2017-09-29, 10:05 AM

FtM means? I for one think that Sam is a person with female bits who wants to have male bits.

I'm pretty sure no-one has previously suggested Sarah is trans.

"I don't know", that's how I feel about sex and gender in general, I find it all confusing. I read bits of:

http://www.wildflowerslgbt.ca/comics/

and I don't understand that, I haven't read the most recent ones, because it's been walls of text.

It seems that sometimes that trans people get changed, then hook up with people of the sex they changed to, I don't understand whether that is usual?

In short, it's complicated and I know I don't understand.

FtM is female-to-male, assigned-female-at-birth, et cetera.

halfeye

2017-09-29, 10:28 AM

FtM is female-to-male, assigned-female-at-birth, et cetera.

That's what my first thought was, but then this didn't seem to make much sense:

I don't think anyone here thought Sam was FtM, just that Sarah might misunderstand as such.

I'm certainly saying I think Sam is FtM, and I thought Douglas was saying that too.

She mentions "one on the Kinsey Scale" at the most when Larry misunderstands her explanation of why she doens'rt like him hitting on her and calls her a lesbian in an "I'm this at the most"

She says "I'm at most a two"

http://www.egscomics.com/index.php?id=1921

Is that out of five? ten? I'm not aware of the Kinsey scale, I've heard of the report as something sexy that some people wanted to ban, but I've never read it.

One reason for thinking that Sarah might not end up with Sam is all the work Larry is trying to do in that card tournament, he starts off very badly, but he's trying to improve.

http://www.egscomics.com/index.php?id=1950

John Cribati

2017-09-29, 10:45 AM

Well the Kinsey Scale has a... Well, less than favorable description of bisexuality, but the gist of it is this:

http://bicommunitynews.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/the-kinsey-scale.jpg

The image is also missing the "X" for asexuality, which was added later.

Also from what I understand, "FtM" (along with "MtF") has fallen out of favor as a descriptor among the transgender community.

Rater202

2017-09-29, 10:57 AM

Kinsey Scale is rated 0-6, though recently it's also involved an X(For totes Ace)

0 is completely and utterly hetero and 6 is completely and utterly homo.

1 and 5 are curious about one but for the most part exclusive to the other, or else incidental attraction.

2-4 are various degrees of Bi... though I'm not 100% sure but I think 3 might be better described as Pan.(Pan is "don't care if male or female, right? I'm honestly not sure what the differance between pan and bi is.")

Topic Change: I would really like it if the story went into a "Greg's dojo for Magically Gifted Youngsters" route.

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-09-29, 11:11 AM

(Pan is "don't care if male or female, right? I'm honestly not sure what the differance between pan and bi is.")

Heck if I know if I'm right (in this context "right" meaning "applies to a plurality"), but as I understand it, bi is "attracted to both males and females due at least in part to the characteristics that make them female or male", whilst pan is attracted to individuals of either sex, but not due to those same characteristics. So if boobs/beards/bums are an important component of your sexual drive, you are closer to bi than pan.

I have found it helps me to switch to a characteristic I personally don't particularly care for. In my case, hair colour. If we drew lines dividing those attracted to blond(e)/redhead/brown/black/etc. and gave each names, some people might be blond(e)-exclusive, others brown-exclusive, and others may like the whole range of colours. And then there are people who just don't get why the hair colour is relevant to this sexual attraction thing, and thus are pan (for the purposes of classifying sexual attraction based on hair colour).

Or I might be completely wrong. I frequently have been, when attempting to understand sexual attraction classification schemes.

Grey Wolf

halfeye

2017-09-29, 11:15 AM

Kinsey Scale is rated 0-6

So that's were Ritchie got arrays start at element 0 from!

A seven point scale numbered 0 to 6, I hate the numbering.

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-09-29, 11:19 AM

So that's were Ritchie got arrays start at element 0 from!

A seven point scale numbered 0 to 6, I hate the numbering.

What kind of rulers did you use at school? Because mine started at 0. Scales starting at 0 are perfectly normal and commonplace.

GW

EternalMelon

2017-09-29, 12:23 PM

Bi vs Pan is (iirc) a touchy topic in the LGBTQ+ community. Some of the contention being related to "Bi" harking back to the outdated binary gender model, suggesting that most "Bi" people are actually "Pan". Of course, there is a "Ashley" vs "Tedd" debate over if a division between the two terms is useful for cases such as the ones described in Grey_Wolf's post.

One more definition I know of is that Pan people are also attracted to non-binary/agender/trans* people. While I believe this definition to be problematic for reasons not necessary for discussion in this thread, it might be useful for "academic prosperity?".

Of course, I don't claim to be an expert on LGBTQ+ terminology, and subscribe to more of an "Ashley" philosophy myself, but I hope this helps.

Any more questions can probably be asked in our LGBTQ+ questions thread in Friendly banter, if you're curious.

I'm just hoping that, after all this build-up, the Susan/Diane conversation is more satisfying than the Dave/Dirk one from Homestuck.

halfeye

2017-09-29, 12:45 PM

What kind of rulers did you use at school? Because mine started at 0. Scales starting at 0 are perfectly normal and commonplace.

GW

Scales yes, fine and normal, I wouldn't have them any other way. Arrays, and containers that start from a container 0 are dire, if you look at a row of something, the first item is the first, item number one, and the second item should be item two, that's what the name "second" comes from (I am not talking about the unit of time, I don't know how the name for that derives).

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-09-29, 12:53 PM

Scales yes, fine and normal, I wouldn't have them any other way. Arrays, and containers that start from a container 0 are dire, if you look at a row of something, the first item is the first, item number one, and the second item should be item two, that's what the name "second" comes from

The initial item is 0 containers from the start, the next one is 1 container from the start, etc. Perfectly logical. Very useful if all you know is the size of the container and its relative position. You then just multiply its number by the length of the container, and measure from the start.

(I am not talking about the unit of time, I don't know how the name for that derives).

Hours are divided into "small chunks" (minuta, as in "small") of successive orders: the starting order are prime minutes, then secunda pars minuta ("second diminished part"). Introduced by the French just prior to the French Revolution.

Grey Wolf

halfeye

2017-09-29, 01:30 PM

The initial item is 0 containers from the start, the next one is 1 container from the start, etc. Perfectly logical. Very useful if all you know is the size of the container and its relative position. You then just multiply its number by the length of the container, and measure from the start.

Off by one, if you have the numbers in sequence in them.

Consider your ruler example, it's a scale, so it starts at zero, but the first centimetre or inch is contained in the first container of the array.

That Kinsey thing might be right as a scale, but as a set of pidgeon holes (which it also very much is), it's off by one.

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-09-29, 01:42 PM

Off by one, if you have the numbers in sequence in them.
Sure, and if you have the numbers in backwards, they will be off by much more. Which supports your claim that the numbering system is wrong, how, precisely? Other than in this weird fringe case where you use containers to store an ordered sequence of numbers and you somehow feel you should have them in the same container that has the number and you are opposed to storing the number 0?

Consider your ruler example, it's a scale, so it starts at zero, but the first centimetre or inch is contained in the first container of the array.
This example makes no sense. A ruler's first centimeter is centimeter 0. Its second centimeter is centimeter 1. That's how rulers work.

That Kinsey thing might be right as a scale, but as a set of pidgeon holes, it's off by one.
No, it is not. Sexual attraction descriptions are not numbers and therefore cannot be off by one.

Grey Wolf

Frozen_Feet

2017-09-30, 07:29 AM

Bi vs Pan is (iirc) a touchy topic in the LGBTQ+ community. Some of the contention being related to "Bi" harking back to the outdated binary gender model, suggesting that most "Bi" people are actually "Pan". Of course, there is a "Ashley" vs "Tedd" debate over if a division between the two terms is useful for cases such as the ones described in Grey_Wolf's post.

One more definition I know of is that Pan people are also attracted to non-binary/agender/trans* people. While I believe this definition to be problematic for reasons not necessary for discussion in this thread, it might be useful for "academic prosperity?".

Of course, I don't claim to be an expert on LGBTQ+ terminology, and subscribe to more of an "Ashley" philosophy myself, but I hope this helps.

Any more questions can probably be asked in our LGBTQ+ questions thread in Friendly banter, if you're curious.

An even more important thing is that we don't have real psychological or physiological evidence that bi- or pansexuality are distinct things. So the semantic argument might be as meaningfull as arguing whether a color is "strawberry red" or "lingonberry red".

halfeye

2017-09-30, 10:27 AM

An even more important thing is that we don't have real psychological or physiological evidence that bi- or pansexuality are distinct things.

We don't?

*ten characters required*

Frozen_Feet

2017-09-30, 02:26 PM

As far as I know, no.

Forum Explorer

2017-09-30, 03:59 PM

Option 3: Tedd/Tedd's Secret Identity says on live Telivision that his power is understanding how magic works, that magic might change, but he'll keep bringing it back as many times as he has to until magic agrees to play by what he considers fair rules. something something hidden purpose/something something Tedd's actually capable of bringing it back/something something Magic's inner drama geek squeels about how cool it is, it works.

EGS is now a full unmasked World setting, Arthur and Voltaire are pissed off, setting up the possibility of further conflift down the line, and if Tedd isn't using a secret identity Noriko might comeback becuase Tedd's a super-wizard.

Massive shake-up to the status quo, it's now full-fledged urban fantasy/superheroes setting with SoL elements instead of the other way around.

I repeat, we had an entire storyline about what spells Ellen had and Dan went out of his way to establish that all the spells Rhoda used in the one NP were canon. Dan is not going to flush alll of that down the toilet, that's not the kind of author he is.

(Especially since the show off Ellen's spells were done concurrently with Sister 3. There would be no point of showing us that if Ellen was never going to get to use them in canon.)

And Magus' plan is set to come to fruition this arc, and that's dependant on both the Dewitchery Diamond and Ellen's version of FV5, both of which would stop working if Magic changed.

We still don't know jack about Lord Tedd. Noriko is still out there. We don't know if Sarah is going to end up with Sam or in a Trio with Grace and Tedd. Tedd still wants to find a way to use magic to help everyone. Dan promised us more stuff with Kitty and Transwoman-Submissive friend who wants to be her pet catgirl.(I forgot her name)

All that that is stuff that can be done without magic changing. A lot of it will get harder to do if magic changes.

That is entirely dependent on what the hidden function of a Seer is. It could be anything from being part of the process to choosing how magic works, to becoming the new will of magic itself. Either way would likely result in what you are suggesting, which honestly would work for me.

I know he's not going to flush all that away, I just don't think that's a good attitude to have.

I don't know what your point is there, that there are a lot of plot lines left to cover? Yes, there are. I don't see how changing magic is relevant to that, other then how it will change those plotlines. It getting harder isn't a bad thing from our perspective. It might even be a good thing.

Basically, I feel like the magic system has become boring and too well explored. It's so very safe and convenient, with being almost consequence free.

Also I hope we don't get more stuff with Kitty. Why can't one note characters remain one note? There are already a ton of characters to handle, and stuff like Larry in the card game arc simply slows things down, in a comic with an already snailish pacing. Particularly when it's about a character that nobody particularly likes! Seriously, how many comics did we waste on Larry in that arc? For someone who has no relevance to the main cast at the start of the arc, and still has no relevance by the end of it. Larry could never show up in the comic again, and nothing would change, because he does not matter!

Rater202

2017-09-30, 04:38 PM

I don't know what your point is there, that there are a lot of plot lines left to cover? Yes, there are. I don't see how changing magic is relevant to that, other then how it will change those plotlines. It getting harder isn't a bad thing from our perspective. It might even be a good thing.
There are enough plotlines left to cover that we don't need to add magic resetting and that plotline(a plotline that would take years to resolve, and we're just finally getting plot points from the original sister finished and it's not in Dan's nature to just drop everything and resolve one plotline asap.)

And when I say it would be harder to do plotlines if magic reset, I'm saying it would be harder for Dan to realistically write and resolve those pltlines if the magic changes: There are two results, for example, or Noriko coming back. 1: She and Tedd reconcile or 2: She's a total bitch and Tedd decides he wants nothing to do with her.

If she has no magical powers because Magic reset and Tedd is only of the only people who still have spells and can teach people the new magic, then... If she tries to reconile, then how can we know it's genuine? And even if it is, Tedd still having powers(powers far greater than her own, powers she abandoned him for for lacking) will come up and will taint the perceptions.

That storyline works best if Noriko is still a wizard because then we'll actually know when it's resolved.

Or Lord Tedd. What if Magic never changed in Lord Tedd's reality, if Magic changed the main reality, you'd have two different systems of magic from two realities and Dan, who has detailes rules for how thigns like transformations work and the differances between enchantments and other transformations and the like, would get bogged down in trying to figure out how that interacted.

Basically, I feel like the magic system has become boring and too well explored. It's so very safe and convenient, with being almost consequence free.Most magic systems in most works are like that. Do you want Dresden's system of magic to suddenly change? Harry Potter's?

Also I hope we don't get more stuff with Kitty. Why can't one-note characters remain one note? There are already a ton of characters to handle, and stuff like Larry in the card game arc simply slows things down, in a comic with an already snailish pacing. Particularly when it's about a character that nobody particularly likes! Seriously, how many comics did we waste on Larry in that arc? For someone who has no relevance to the main cast at the start of the arc, and still has no relevance by the end of it. Larry could never show up in the comic again, and nothing would change, because he does not matter!Becuase El Goonish Shive is a character based work in a living, detailed world.

Besides, Rich and Larry are established as being part of the "Comic Shop Crowd" so it made sense for them to be present at an event at the comic shop, and if Dan can use that to create a narrative where a jerk realizes he's a jerk and tries to better himself, why shouldn't he?

Dan likes doing side stories and running arcs. If him doing side stories and running arcs keeps him motivated, then I'm willing to read what he writes. Even if I don't like it, chances are...

Look, I write fanfiction. I'd probably be a lot further along in my main one if I wasn't writing two others, occasional one-shots, and side story content for some of them. I'd also never be able to get over my writer's block, so eventually I'd hit a wall and the stories would die.

If having multiple stories he can write on helps Dan actually finish EGS, then what right do we have to complain? Even if it doesn't, writing the things he likes to write would keep him motivated to keep writing.

And honestly? We don't need no Crises Crossover Reboot/mega shake up crap.

Yuki Akuma

2017-09-30, 04:55 PM

Basically, I feel like the magic system has become boring and too well explored. It's so very safe and convenient, with being almost consequence free.

That's the way Dan Shive likes transformation to be, and since the majority of magic in this comic is transformation based, that's never going away.

Lord Raziere

2017-09-30, 05:02 PM

Look, I write fanfiction. I'd probably be a lot further along in my main one if I wasn't writing two others, occasional one-shots, and side story content for some of them. I'd also never be able to get over my writer's block, so eventually I'd hit a wall and the stories would die.

If having multiple stories he can write on helps Dan actually finish EGS, then what right do we have to complain? Even if it doesn't, writing the things he likes to write would keep him motivated to keep writing.

And honestly? We don't need no Crises Crossover Reboot/mega shake up crap.

I agree with all of this, I just finished my second Undertale fan fiction so I can get back to my Pokemon fan fic. and there is nothing wrong with having a consistent magic system that works.

every time a reboot happens, more continuity is just created that screws things up even more. you want an alt version of the character, make elseworlds type of stories, those are where the good storytelling is at. Just, completely different continuity, different situation, no need to tie it to the rest, and think of the character less as one tied to a specific story, and more of as a character could be in many stories based on what choices could be made about them. then you can compare one version of the character to another, like Superman to Red Son Superman. you can mine so much out of comparing the two.

like, a vast majority of these power level and continuity problems today could be solved just by going "ok, two different versions of hero, they have nothing to do with each other, don't attempt to connect the two ever." street level Batman? nothing to do with justice league batman, they just live in parallel universes where the rules are completely different, simple as that. would solve so much, because then, there would be no inconsistency between issues and stories, just say that each story is its own self-contained story with no relation and suddenly, bam, no need to keep track, no need for continuity, just make the whole superhero thing episodic. superheroes work best when they are tailored to a specific story.

of course that doesn't work for EGS since its all about relationships and character development, so I'd just say keep the magic in the comic the same, but if someone wanted the change to happen, I'd just say they should go write their own EGS fan fic where it does and detail their own new magic system if they think they can do better. thats the logic behind me making a pokemon fan fic. don't bother the author about it, get creating and if you like making fan fics because they're unoriginal but like EGS and think it needs improvements, then make an original world based on EGS that is better! demonstrate your logic! show don't tell! its not a challenge, you don't need to do it, but come on you might have fun doing it, you might learn something, its a good exercise regardless, and no one listens to "X is better because of reasons" arguments anyways, just accept and acknowledge that people like things the way they like things, and that liking one thing won't stop them from liking another and that sometimes your just proposing a different thing and not a better thing.

Forum Explorer

2017-09-30, 05:03 PM

Most magic systems in most works are like that. Do you want Dresden's system of magic to suddenly change? Harry Potter's?

Becuase El Goonish Shive is a character based work in a living, detailed world.

Besides, Rich and Larry are established as being part of the "Comic Shop Crowd" so it made sense for them to be present at an event at the comic shop, and if Dan can use that to create a narrative where a jerk realizes he's a jerk and tries to better himself, why shouldn't he?

Dan likes doing side stories and running arcs. If him doing side stories and running arcs keeps him motivated, then I'm willing to read what he writes. Even if I don't like it, chances are...

Look, I write fanfiction. I'd probably be a lot further along in my main one if I wasn't writing two others, occasional one-shots, and side story content for some of them. I'd also never be able to get over my writer's block, so eventually I'd hit a wall and the stories would die.

If having multiple stories he can write on helps Dan actually finish EGS, then what right do we have to complain? Even if it doesn't, writing the things he likes to write would keep him motivated to keep writing.

And honestly? We don't need no Crises Crossover Reboot/mega shake up crap.

Dresden's has changed slightly over the years. Though more importantly, it is actually risky. Dresden's personality and very being is at risk simply due to the powers he wields. And there are still plenty of mysteries in magic and the world in general that it still holds it's wonder and awe effects.

Harry Potter, well I didn't like that story anyways, but I'll say that it certainly made for interesting magic. New stuff was constantly happening, and the magic remained, well magical. Even if it did fail at actually making sense now and then.

EGS magic is safe. It's explained. It's easily added to pretty much any character in the comic. There are no penalties nor worries in using it. In fact, it makes you even better at doing more magic! And because magic is based on your own personality, wants, and actions, you'll typically get stuff related to what you want regardless. The worst case scenario with it is burning yourself out, which simply takes time to recover, not even all that much time considering. It's not even hard to use!

But I'll admit that's more personal preference then anything. It does sorta extend to the rest of his comic though. Because everything is so safe, there often is very little tension these days, because I know he's so resistant to his characters experiencing significant harm that I can assume that they'll get through whatever threatens them safely. It would be wonderful if he defied that expectation, but I'm not holding my breath.

Because it makes for a worse story. Flat out. That's why he shouldn't do it. I get that he's providing a free service, but that doesn't make him immune to criticism (same goes for fanfiction BTW). As for writing side stories, well that's what EGS:NP is for.

Rater202

2017-09-30, 05:53 PM

Forum Explorer

2017-09-30, 06:08 PM

Re: Reboots and shake-ups: I wouldn't go that far, but yeah, needless reboots and shake-ups bad. Am still pissed about what Marvel is doing with Venom and Deadpool right now.

Re: Tension. That was never really the point of EGS. EGS is primarily a story about relationships and characters. conflict exists in the traits of characters, how they interact, and how events affect them--it exists in how they grow, and that's what EGS is about. You don't need danger or the possibility that the characters could lose to do that. It's not all about fighting.

Re: everything else: When it comes down to it... would you rather have a long, slow-moving, convoluted story with lots of side plots... or would you have a fast, simple story that never gets finished?

On reboots: I wouldn't even consider the magic system in EGS changing to be a reboot. Just a change.

On Tension: That's true, and it works really well for slice of life stuff, like the card game tournament. I actually hope we get more arcs like that (barring the Larry stuff). But we're going into an arc that's all about danger, because there's vampires attacking, Voltaire is plotting something, and Sirelock and Magnus have their own plans in the works as well. And there's' no tension, because I can say with confidence that all of the characters I care about (and even the ones I don't), will come out of it just fine.

On Everything Else: Wrong question. The question is, do I want a good story that never gets finished, or a bad story that drags on and on? Because I'd prefer the former. I mean obviously, I want a good story that does get finished, but I'd prefer a clean failure then a slow degradation beneath the author's bad habits. Do you want to die quick? Or die slow?

Because hey, at least in the former there's the chance the author will come back to it. Or at least learn from their mistakes and do better next time.

Rater202

2017-09-30, 06:18 PM

The question is, do I want a good story that never gets finished, or a bad story that drags on and on? Because I'd prefer the former. I mean obviously, I want a good story that does get finished, but I'd prefer a clean failure then a slow degradation beneath the author's bad habits.\

No, not the qusion: The fact that you're still reading the story is proof that, for all you complain, you still think the story is good enough to be worth your time.

Thus, it becomes "do you want to story to die, or do you want the story to finish?"

From where I'm sitting, and in my experience, a story is more likely to finish if the author doesn't get bored with it, can tell the story he wants to tell, and has ways to vent writers block.

Yuki Akuma

2017-09-30, 06:22 PM

You have a very narrow view of what narrative tension is. EGS has plenty of narrative tension - it just doesn't have a whole lot of pathos.

Narrative tension is simply the quality of not knowing what's going to happen next, so you want to keep reading. Characters don't need to suffer just to keep people interested, and honestly the entire idea that characters must suffer for a story to be interesting is pretty messed up. Why can't you empathise with characters without pitying them?

Forum Explorer

2017-09-30, 08:01 PM

No, not the qusion: The fact that you're still reading the story is proof that, for all you complain, you still think the story is good enough to be worth your time.

Thus, it becomes "do you want to story to die, or do you want the story to finish?"

From where I'm sitting, and in my experience, a story is more likely to finish if the author doesn't get bored with it, can tell the story he wants to tell, and has ways to vent writers block.

True it isn't at that point yet, and maybe it never will be. But I complain because I think it's been getting worse, and that there is a very real chance that I will end up dropping it altogether. It wouldn't be the first comic to have slowly degraded in qualilty until I was no longer intersted (The Wotch or Fairy Tail for example, or frig, even Naruto, considering I never actually finished it. I got very close)

So yeah, I'd prefer it to die before it hits that point.

You have a very narrow view of what narrative tension is. EGS has plenty of narrative tension - it just doesn't have a whole lot of pathos.

Narrative tension is simply the quality of not knowing what's going to happen next, so you want to keep reading. Characters don't need to suffer just to keep people interested, and honestly the entire idea that characters must suffer for a story to be interesting is pretty messed up. Why can't you empathise with characters without pitying them?

They don't need to suffer, but if they are placed in a dangerous situation, I need to think they are actually in danger.

Lamech

2017-10-01, 05:34 PM

So I just binged a bunch of EGS and I've come to the conclusion: all the plot threads are going to come crashing down over the weekend. THREADFALL! THREADFALL! QUICK GET DEX TO SUMMON A DRAGON!

On a more serious note: stuff is foreshadowed really far in advance!

Forum Explorer: Have you read Worm? Wildbow likes to kill characters at random. Important major characters. At random. ASoIaF too, but I assume you've heard of it.

Forum Explorer

2017-10-01, 06:20 PM

Forum Explorer: Have you read Worm? Wildbow likes to kill characters at random. Important major characters. At random. ASoIaF too, but I assume you've heard of it.

I have read Worm, and it's one of my favorite stories. I wouldn't say characters die at random, besides that one time when they literally did.

ASoIaF I read a bunch. I didn't mind the characters dying, but I did stop reading after the 4th book when nothing of interest happened.

Both stories are at an extreme for character's being at risk, the stakes are very high in each fight.

Rater202

2017-10-11, 02:00 PM

So... A vampire slayer, a potential vampire slayer, and the Elf-Wizard that a bunch of vampires has been hired to kill are all in the same mall.

On the Day the vampires are set to move.

Vampire slayers are the only thing aside from the elf that the vampires are allowed to kill.

Mall's gonna be swarming with vampires.

TaRix

2017-10-12, 02:01 PM

Mith

2017-10-12, 04:47 PM

The other thing that's not quite visible--Is Raven holding his cane? (http://www.egscomics.com/index.php?id=979) So, has he been tipped off somehow? If yes, why in blazes would he choose to be in a crowded space?

I understand it that he gets a bad feeling about the day, so he brings his cane with him for the day. He didn't know what would happen when Abraham attacked, just that something bad would happen that day.

Yuki Akuma

2017-10-12, 06:19 PM

I understand it that he gets a bad feeling about the day, so he brings his cane with him for the day. He didn't know what would happen when Abraham attacked, just that something bad would happen that day.

I have a feeling Raven has some sort of "Is today going to be dangerous?" spell. It suits his personality, after all.

Rater202

2017-10-13, 01:22 AM

...Reveal that elves can have children after all and that Raven is Susan's(and Diane's) grandparent or even parent in 3... 2...

JavaScribe

2017-10-13, 01:47 AM

It would take time, but that might give Pandora another way to make magic widespread and more fully live up to her name. Maybe that's the reason for the lie to being with?

Douglas

2017-10-13, 02:00 AM

I think the reason for the lie was to reduce the chance of an immortal refusing to reset because she has, not just a child, but an ever growing clan of descendants that she doesn't want to give up her love for. It would explain Heka's comment about it (http://www.egscomics.com/index.php?id=2335).

Lamech

2017-10-13, 05:40 AM

Raven is probably a grandparent. The father had brownish hair.

Vinyadan

2017-10-21, 03:54 AM

Nanananana Snailpace
Snailpace
Snailpace
Nananananana

RowenMorland

2017-10-24, 12:03 AM

By the way, have you guys been discussing the fact that Susan and Diane are changelings. Specifically Susan, who is Raven's daughter created without his knowledge by Pandora's tricky plans using Diane as a template and then switching out Diane to go off and be adopted?

I mean, immortals did get confirmed as fairies recently.

Vinyadan

2017-10-24, 05:41 AM

From my pov, there could be alternate dimensions involved. We know that immortals have different rules in griffinland, so who knows.

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-10-24, 07:59 AM

the fact

[citation needed]

GW

RowenMorland

2017-10-24, 10:36 AM

[citation needed]

GW

Ha! When I was editing it to make it more readable I dropped out the "might be" bit and didn't notice. :smallbiggrin:

edit: Oh the other part of my guess was that the child would be the result of Noriko and Raven's indiscretion that broke her and Edward up and was for the purpose of creating a magically potent child that she wanted for keeping her legacy going..

Mando Knight

2017-10-25, 01:59 AM

Calemyr

2017-10-25, 08:06 AM

Assuming the duo (and indeed all mages) are indeed descended from elves, that is a bomb that neither of the Ravens are aware of. And a bomb it's going to prove, if my theory is right. My theory, as I've said before, being that Adrian has had multiple loves in his long life, only to reject them as unfaithful when they fell pregnant. After all, elves can't have children and his mother wouldn't lie about something as important as that. You don't get better proof of cheating than that. When he learns that most, if not all, of the children he dismissed as this were actually his, he's going to be shattered. How many loves did he throw away for something they never did? How many children that he desperately wanted did he turn his nose up at? Oh, yes. "Bomb" is the word.

My theory on the duo is still dimensional duplicates. This story has used that element before, multiple times. How many Tedd's and Elliot/Ellens have we had? Remember how "Grace didn't die in that dimension"? How Ellen's entire life story now is stolen from another dimensional duplicate? And yet, nobody in the strip has even brought that up as an option, which is glaringly odd. The only way that works at all is if it's being left out so that it can blindside people with the reveal.

Rater202

2017-10-25, 12:38 PM

There's a few major flaws in that idea:

Previously, Raven and Pandora both were totally unaware of the possibility for elves to reproduce. (It's possible--maybe even probable?--that Tedd is a distant descendant of Raven himself. At the very least, he has an Immortal ancestor somewhere in his heritage, through Noriko at the very least if not also through Edward)
Susan and Diane are too close to Tedd's age for Noriko to have given birth to another child.

Per Heka, all Wizards and people with special affinities are descended from something that made Pandora say what and think that Adrian would hate her.

Not just Seers. So if it is immortals, then there's a possibility that half the main cast could have common ancestors(Tedd is Seer, Nanase is related to a Wizard, Susan and Sarah have affinities)

I personally would find it highly unlikely to learn that they were all related to the same immortal--especially if we're right and Susan is related to Raven, but it'd be a fun plotline if it was.

RowenMorland

2017-10-25, 06:41 PM

There's a few major flaws in that idea:

Previously, Raven and Pandora both were totally unaware of the possibility for elves to reproduce. (It's possible--maybe even probable?--that Tedd is a distant descendant of Raven himself. At the very least, he has an Immortal ancestor somewhere in his heritage, through Noriko at the very least if not also through Edward)
Susan and Diane are too close to Tedd's age for Noriko to have given birth to another child.

Those are some big problems with the idea. I suppose it is still possible that Noriko exploited some magical loopholes and lore to make it happen despite those problems but if she were that involved then why would she leave the child behind since her motive was that she super wanted a magically gifted apprentice heir.

Lamech

2017-10-26, 11:00 AM

I'm guessing... cousins! Maybe half-sisters? But I bet their Raven's grandkids!

I suppose dimensional dupes is possible, but why give a child up for adoption in another dimension? Paperwork error? GPS glitch? Transdimensional car equipped with transdimensional GPS and when you asked for the nearest hospital it gave you one two dimensions windershins?

P.S. The pacing is a good bit better if you read the comics in a binge. Just go binge back from the beginning.

halfeye

2017-10-26, 11:51 AM

Qwertystop

2017-10-26, 01:04 PM

It occurs to me that this could still be a bait-and-switch without too much of a fundamental change if the source of human mages was actually close early-life contact with immortals and elves. Then we have roughly similar results without the oddity of how Raven (in the old hypothetical) never noticed that his affairs kept producing kids. Slightly easier to miss.

Lord Raziere

2017-10-27, 12:47 AM

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-10-27, 08:23 AM

On latest EGS:
Hm, it seems Susan is Asexual. Yeah, I was expecting that. She never seemed all that interested in other people in that way.

However she isn't Aromantic. given that she has feelings for Elliot. Asexual but romantic seems to fit here perfectly.

She also seems to believe that her lack of sexual desires is part of her broader dislike of being touched. Given that she believes those tendencies are negatively impacting her life and is actively working towards eliminating them, we shall see is she does remain asexual or if she embraces that aspect while curtailing the rest.

We may get more on the topic later - for now she is contemplating her own innate sexist thoughts, which is obviously far more crucial to her than her sexuality.

GW

Gez

2017-10-28, 05:25 AM

There are at the very least dozens of immortals, probably thousands (given that we know of at least five currently in Moperville). To suggest that all wizards come from Raven seems silly, especially since American Japanese, let alone American Chinese, are a very recent innovation.

There's only 32 years between the end of the American War of Independence (1783) and the first wave of Chinese immigration to the USA (1815).

Granted, America's intense racism against non-European immigrants resulted in a legal ban that lasted from 1882 to 1943 (Chinese Exclusion Act, etc.) but this happened in the first place because there was a sizable presence of Chinese people on the West Coast.

Present 2.0

2017-10-28, 05:45 AM

On latest EGS:
Hm, it seems Susan is Asexual. Yeah, I was expecting that. She never seemed all that interested in other people in that way.

However she isn't Aromantic. given that she has feelings for Elliot. Asexual but romantic seems to fit here perfectly.

One Fan asked Dan, if Susan could be autochissexual (https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=autochissexual). You know, because of her Reaction to Elliott and Catalina.

Dan said, that he finds that Theory interesting, but he didn't want to confirm it. I guees, he didn't knew that Term before, but noticed, that it would fit somewhat.

Beelzebub1111

2017-10-28, 09:26 AM

I think susan might be bisexual with hangups about sex. Considering how she was brought up, I can see her having developed some serious negative attitudes and misconceptions about sexual contact. She's getting over them, but asexuality isn't caused by these issues, it's caused by a lack of sexual attraction.

Rater202

2017-10-28, 11:52 AM

The older I get and the more I learn about "nonstandard"(term used for convenience) sexualities, the more I agree with Ashley: Why does everything need a lable.

Susan walked in on her father having sex with a woman who was not her mother, and her mother, a bitter woman who is clearly whacked when it comes to sex and gender, said that it was becuase he was a man instead of any of the countless real reasons why someone would have an affair.

These two events screwed Susan up--they're why she was a stereotypical feminazi at first before character development set in, and it would make sense if one or both of them gave her issues and hangups related to thae actual act of having sex.

As for sexual orientation... honestly, I figured she was self-closeted bi the first time she said she wished she could be more atracted to Catlana.

So: "She might like boys and girls but hasn't put much thought into it because she's somewhat disgusted with the idea of sex and just went along with what was 'standard' as a result of not thinking about it." That's clear and leaves little room for confusion. Why use a label that might be less clear?

John Cribati

2017-10-28, 01:10 PM

I think you're confusing "unclear" and "imprecise."

I can say "table" and an image comes into your mind, but we can still be thinking about different kinds of tables, because tables come in all sorts of designs and for all sorts of purposes- for example, my kitchen table looks nothing like my dining table, and neither of them look like the coffee table in my loving room.

So ironically enough, your complaint is resolved when you actually add more to the label, not take it away.

Forum Explorer

2017-10-28, 02:43 PM

John Cribati

2017-10-28, 03:09 PM

The problem is that spectrum stuff makes it hard to simply slap a label on something. Or you end up with too many labels and it gets confusing. Like with colors.

The way you just described it, the "problem" isn't the label, but rather the slipping upon thereof.

Also, you seem to believe that most people who question their gender or sexual identity just "slap" something on when they find something that fits.

Yuki Akuma

2017-10-28, 03:43 PM

Labels are useful for talking about concepts without having to explain them more than once to a specific person. And if you're lucky you might even talk about the concept with someone who already got it explained to them by someone else!

Cluedrew

2017-11-04, 08:44 AM

So I just finished my third read through of El Goonish Shive. Its still brilliant and fun.

I also have a spreadsheet that calculates the number of comics published in each of the three sections each month since it started going online. Because I like counting things apparently. Actually it was because I felt archives went by pretty fast in 2006 and I wanted to quantity that.

Anyways I don't really enjoy trying to figure out what happens next as much as some others, but I will say this: I enjoy that the story meanders. Why? Because too many stories rush on to plot and the people and places the events are happening in become dry and stale. I've read two stories recently that started really well that switched from "introducing to the characters" to "now the action". I didn't care about the action, because they forgot about the characters that the action was supposed to be happening too.

Here everything seems alive. The importance of what is going on is super obvious. Not only how at the high level, I mean I could see how Rich dying could send waves (OK, maybe only ripples) through the story and he is a character who wouldn't matter in so many other stories. Yeah here he does, or could. The other side of it is it makes me care about the little things. I mean that ark (What is Love) where Ellen and Nanase look after Akiko and have to handle some awkward questions was great. I don't know if it has an actually significance, it probably doesn't other than we get to know more about Akiko, but still I can also understand why Nanase really didn't want to mess up that conversation.

Vinyadan

2017-11-04, 11:06 AM

I guess it's good that you like Dan's writing style.
It took me a long time to understand why I have so many problems with this comic, in spite of the fact that I like reading it. The thing is, the first arc - up until Painted Black and the events immediately following it - prepared a story around parallel dimensions and Lord Ted. Instead, the story took a completely different direction, revolving around immortals and high school/personal drama (also magic cards). So I spent something like the last ten years waiting for these plots to kick in. Dan actually addressed this in-comic by having old Verres say that Lord Ted wouldn't enter the story any time soon. Griffinworld probably was the only time alternate dimensions came back in scope.

Concerning pacing, I am starting to feel that egs could use something that Unsounded has: email notification when a chapter ends. It would also make it easier to focus on the theme of the single issue.

Cluedrew

2017-11-04, 12:05 PM

I would not defend Dan as a writer given the early arks. In fact if it were not for the commentary below, which consists of a lot of "why did I do this?" and "Tedd!" I'm not sure I would have made it to Grace's Birthday Party, which is where (roughly speaking) things start coming together for me. Maybe I would have made it, but even if it did, if it had stayed like that I would not have read it three times.

I think the early days were really the comic and author trying to find their way. At a certain point Dan seemed to realize that he didn't want it to be what he was trying to make. The alternate dimensions took a bow, Tedd grew up and the number of action scenes decreased (to name a few changes that seem to happen around Grace's Birthday Party). And I like what it became more than what it was before that.

To sum it up, I have my complaints about parts of the comic as well. A lot of them seem to come down to dealing with the fallout of when the story telling just wasn't as good as it was now.

Douglas

2017-11-04, 12:50 PM

I remember seeing somewhere a comment from Dan that he'd introduced Lord Tedd waaaaaaaaaay too early - Lord Tedd is still part of his planned plot, but there's still quite a ways to go before that part will come.

Rater202

2017-11-04, 04:30 PM

@Dougless: Yeah, that's basically it.

Personally, I'm thinking that Lord Tedd is the endgame. We won't find out the deal with him until our Tedd complete's his character development.(Which, naturally, means that Lord Tedd will come after Noriko at the very least.)

This is also one of the reasons why I don't think magic is going to change--it'd take years to get Tedd's friends and allies back up to snuff and going by most of what we know of Lord Tedd, there's gonna be fighting.

(Even if Nioi's right, and like, Shade Tail is responsible for the evil crap while pretending to be Lord Tedd or something, there's gonna be a fight.)

Southern Cross

2017-11-07, 05:39 PM

Is anybody else having trouble with El Goonish Shive on Firefox?

halfeye

2017-11-07, 05:53 PM

Is anybody else having trouble with El Goonish Shive on Firefox?

Not at the moment.

Rater202

2017-11-08, 12:38 AM

God Damn it Magus.

Worst possible time

Douglas

2017-11-08, 01:30 AM

Calemyr

2017-11-08, 10:22 AM

If that really is Ellen, how the hell did Magus set this up?

If it's some kind of fake, how does that factor into Magus' plan? Or is this an intervention by Voltaire in some way?

So many questions...:smallconfused:

In any case, the dramatic action is definitely kicking into gear now. With the commentary saying the next comic is "FAR MORE FRIDAY" than this one, I will not be surprised if on Friday we see Magus reborn. I will be very curious about how the plan worked, but not surprised.

I think it's probably pretty simple. Elliot had been guarded by the French twins (Helena and Demitrius) for a long time there. They only stopped covering him 24/7 after the rash of aberrations forced them to divide their focus. This quiet moment is the first time both Elliot and Ellen have been left unguarded, allowing Magus to interfere. That was probably a good chunk of Magus's scheme with Sirleck right there.

As far as we understand it, Magus just wants to get his body back, which will require Ellen to zappa Elliot. The exact details aren't explained, except that this was Pandora's solution to Magus's problem. Most likely, this is something to do with the Dewitchery Diamond, and reapplying the curse to the victim will cause a major reaction. Magus supposedly can use this reaction to get his body back.

Sirleck needs a new body, one that is unknown and can conceivably inherit his former host's wealth. If Magus succeeds in getting his body back, it will be a completely unknown individual, a perfect host for Sirleck to use, so Sirleck wants him to succeed and then betray him in his moment of victory.

Voltaire - well, it's hard to tell exactly what Voltaire is actually after beyond the liberation of immortals from their self-imposed neuroses. He is tacking onto Magus's plans with some misdirection, intentionally confusing the French twins with Pandora and then adding in the true detail that Pandora has a son named Adrian Raven. Voltaire was clearly trying to get Adrian onto their radar so that they'd attack him, eliciting a reaction from his mother. If Adrian is hurt, or much worse killed, Pandora is going to flip her lid on a level this setting has never seen, forcing the immortals to re-examine their current status quo and giving Voltaire the leverage to get the changes he desires.

Qwertystop

2017-11-08, 10:55 AM

Do we know whether Magus gets a new body or Elliot's body?

And I would guess the initial motivation here is Ellen considering it as a whimsical prank.

Rater202

2017-11-08, 01:34 PM

I think it's probably pretty simple. Elliot had been guarded by the French twins (Helena and Demitrius) for a long time there. They only stopped covering him 24/7 after the rash of aberrations forced them to divide their focus. This quiet moment is the first time both Elliot and Ellen have been left unguarded, allowing Magus to interfere. That was probably a good chunk of Magus's scheme with Sirleck right there.

As far as we understand it, Magus just wants to get his body back, which will require Ellen to zappa Elliot. The exact details aren't explained, except that this was Pandora's solution to Magus's problem. Most likely, this is something to do with the Dewitchery Diamond, and reapplying the curse to the victim will cause a major reaction. Magus supposedly can use this reaction to get his body back.

Sirleck needs a new body, one that is unknown and can conceivably inherit his former host's wealth. If Magus succeeds in getting his body back, it will be a completely unknown individual, a perfect host for Sirleck to use, so Sirleck wants him to succeed and then betray him in his moment of victory.

Voltaire - well, it's hard to tell exactly what Voltaire is actually after beyond the liberation of immortals from their self-imposed neuroses. He is tacking onto Magus's plans with some misdirection, intentionally confusing the French twins with Pandora and then adding in the true detail that Pandora has a son named Adrian Raven. Voltaire was clearly trying to get Adrian onto their radar so that they'd attack him, eliciting a reaction from his mother. If Adrian is hurt, or much worse killed, Pandora is going to flip her lid on a level this setting has never seen, forcing the immortals to re-examine their current status quo and giving Voltaire the leverage to get the changes he desires.

We know that voltaire wants magic to change for some reason.

Forum Explorer

2017-11-08, 01:43 PM

My theory is that Sirlock has actually body jacked Ellen. He isn't planning on 'keeping' Ellen, but is doing so to force her to zap Elliot.

Mith

2017-11-08, 02:34 PM

Since Elliot can change forms at will now, is this actually a solution? The Dewitchery diamond isn't needed.

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-11-08, 02:44 PM

Since Elliot can change forms at will now, is this actually a solution? The Dewitchery diamond isn't needed.

A couple of hints suggest that Magus can surf on Ellen's transformation beam into Elliot. What the ultimate cause-and-effect will turn out to be is at current unknown (but for the record I like Calemyr's hypothesis that it might involve a secondary effect of applying the dewitchery diamond a second time to a cured individual)

Grey Wolf

memnarch

2017-11-09, 11:14 PM

Perhaps this is a bait and switch sort of page? Make us think that Ellen is going to tranform Elliot, but she's really using a different beam spell to confirm that Elliot really is Elliot and not some other jerk in a disguise?

Rater202

2017-11-10, 01:48 AM

So, since Sirleck isn't a mortal anymore and exists on the Astral Plane, Pandora's more than allowed to kill his ass, right?

Becuase Sirleck taking Ellen as a host... Can't be good for her and I'm not seeing him letting go until it's time to backstab Magus.

GAAD

2017-11-10, 02:27 AM

...

Holy.

Shizmagurgle.

Now THAT is a Friday comic.

Douglas

2017-11-10, 02:32 AM

Huh. Well, that explains at least some things. Ashley is going to be so confused, it'll be interesting to see how she responds to all of this.:smallamused:

So, since Sirleck isn't a mortal anymore and exists on the Astral Plane, Pandora's more than allowed to kill his ass, right?

Becuase Sirleck taking Ellen as a host... Can't be good for her and I'm not seeing him letting go until it's time to backstab Magus.
I suppose the physical/astral distinction might allow an exception, but I doubt it. Him being non-mortal definitely doesn't, as that's something common to all aberrations but several past examples indicate that immortals have to get mortal minions to kill aberrations for them.

Judging by Francine, Ellen's going to be pretty incapacitated when Sirleck leaves her, but I'd guess recovery will just take some rest. I think he might well leave long before betraying Magus, though - Magus is a powerful wizard and knows exactly what Sirleck is and will likely be on guard. Since Sirleck obviously is able to use the magical abilities of his host, he may have a temporary other host lined up to give him a power boost for the inevitable fight with Magus. Then again, he might just have his mercenaries help out.

Looks like Magus is now in Elliot's body, but I don't see him staying there. He's moral enough he shouldn't accept permanently stealing the body of an innocent for himself. Plus, this is the very beginning of the plan being shown in action (ignoring the not-obvious-at-the-time lie to Nanase), it's way too early for the objective to be complete.

The body appears to have been transformed to match Magus - that's Elliot's shirt, but the hair is far too light colored. Maybe the next goal is to find and touch the Dewitchery Diamond? That would get Magus a genuinely new body all for himself if this counts as a curse for the Diamond. It would also give Elliot the ability to transform into Magus (physically only, or with Wizard powers too?) and wake up Abraham.

Things I'm wondering about now: Do Sirleck's victims remember anything of what happened during his possession once he's left, and how much of all this (and how) are the main cast going to figure out? Pandora's the only one who won't be completely blindsided by this, and she might end up forced into an improper reset before she can explain after being provoked into breaking Immortal law.

eschmenk

2017-11-10, 08:29 PM

[QUOTE=Douglas;22554748]Huh. Well, that explains at least some things. Ashley is going to be so confused, it'll be interesting to see how she responds to all of this.:smallamused:

"Ellen" told Nanase that Elliot would drop her off, so I think both Magus and Sirleck will probably go and attack her now. If so, would they take Ashley with them or just leave her behind? I suppose that could have been just a wild goose chase to keep Nanase occupied and out of the way, but I suspect there is more than that to it.

Douglas

2017-11-10, 08:57 PM

Why would Magus and Sirleck want to attack Nanase? My guess is they just wanted to get her out of the way and/or to delay when she realizes something's going on. She's a powerful enough magic user to potentially cause trouble for them but their goals have nothing to do with her, best to just trick her into being a bystander.

Rater202

2017-11-10, 09:02 PM

So, 3/4 od the main eight's heavy hitters are incapped at the moment.

Time for Tedd to use his Gauntlet for it's intended purpose and Justin and Susan to fight?(Susan for the first time since the Goo?)

Lamech

2017-11-10, 11:03 PM

So betrayal is in the works.

This comic (http://www.egscomics.com/index.php?id=1128) makes it clear that Sirleck wants to use Magus as a host, especially now that we know Sirleck can use his victim's magical powers. Actually, I missed that the first and second times reading! :smallredface: A lot of people have already brought that up.

But this comic makes Magus's positions on aberrations clear. (http://www.egscomics.com/index.php?id=2298) He thinks them dying is a bonus. So he's not going to reward Sirleck like he promised. He's gonna off the Sirleck the first chance he gets. If the heroes are lucky Magus will snap his fingers and destroy Sirleck without harming Ellen. I suspect things won't go so well.

Side note: I don't think Sirleck has realized Magus is anti-aberration. Ironically, some empathy would clear that stupidity right up.

Qwertystop

2017-11-10, 11:16 PM

Was rereading old segments, found this page (http://www.egscomics.com/index.php?id=2313) - I am adjusting-upward my expected odds of Tedd playing chicken with the reset via some sort of public announcement, as someone suggested a bit ago.

Adaon Nightwind

2017-11-11, 11:26 AM

Wow. That was.. just wow. I feel a bit sick, now. Powerfull Page.

Congratulations, Forum Explorer, you nailed it.

Muninn

2017-11-11, 01:10 PM

I am adjusting-upward my expected odds of Tedd playing chicken with the reset via some sort of public announcement, as someone suggested a bit ago.

At risk of prolonging this discussion when it looks like there's soon going to be a lot of other things to talk about (seriously, holy ****), I'll toss a pair of unsolicited coppers into this thread regarding the matter.

I really hope this isn't how the magic plotline resolves.

To clarify my position a bit, I start by saying that I also feel the magic system in this comic is a bit too well explained. Consolidated might be a better word. I liked it back towards the beginning of the story, when you had Tedd and Grace with their alien technology, Nanase with her magic spells, Damien with his I-don't-know-what, Greg with his abilities that he got from being a massive weeb, et cetera. You had a bunch of different power origins, and they all kind of had their own "feel" to them. At the same time, the fact that there were so many of them among a small number of people made it feel like there must be a whole bunch of other weird stuff out there.

Then Sister II, Part 4 happened. Everything's a synonym for magic, now. Though this probably sounds like I'm complaining about it, I don't actually have a problem with this plot development. At the time, it just seemed like a confirmation that there's some transparency between the different kinds of weird things that people can do. I say "confirmation" because we'd really known this since the (magic) Dewitchery Diamond had an effect on the (Mad Science!) transformation gun. This was just a fun little barrel of exposition, and though it's not necessarily related it has the "feel" of being the setup to what happened next.

Fast forward nine years, to 2017. Elliot, Ellen, Sarah, Susan, Justin, Nanase. Six of the eight main character now have Nanase-style magic as their primary source for new abilities. The seventh, Tedd, has recently been revealed as a wizard, and that all of the Magitech stuff that he had been created recently is more-or-less just plain magic. And pretty much every supporting character with special abilities has them because they're marked.

Though I said that I was going to clarify my position, the last two-and-a-half paragraphs are pretty much just a tangential nitpick to my main point. The weird and unique abilities that people used to have in EGS were weird and unique, but now they feel all samey. I'm not a fan of this development. Having said all of this, I don't think knocking the board over is the solution. It would take a long time, but this could be solved with a gradual shift towards unique and specialized magic variants. (And honestly, lots of stuff in this comic takes years to pay off. Having to do things at a slow burn isn't necessarily a problem when you've got a bunch of other stuff going at the same pace).

I'm now going to start another tangent, but I promise this one leads to my actual point. Let's go back to 2013. Tedd's dad protects people from magic by hiding it from them, and Nanase doesn't like it. She hears his reasoning, and still doesn't like it. But the important thing is that they both have their reasons for supporting their position.

This is the problem that I have with the idea of Tedd strongarming magic into acting the way he wants. It presupposes that everybody would benefit from Tedd's view of how magic should work. It assumes that Magic changing itself is pointless, that the main characters all know better than it, and that Magic is only doing so (and has been doing so for millenia) because it's Dumb. There's nothing wrong from a storytelling perspective with magic continuing to change itself for a dumb reason. Stories where characters are never allowed to make the wrong decision can get kind of boring. And it's not like there isn't precedent for Dan using this kind of thing before, whether it's Abraham continuing to hold himself to an oath that clearly doesn't allow enough leeway for edge cases, or Pandora deciding that if you trash the current status quo, the end result would be better for Adrian. If Magic has some dumb reason like that, I'll be fine.

It has to be a dumb reason, though. Maybe far in the past Magic tried letting everybody have powers, and it turned everyday life into rocket tag. Maybe there's only so much magic energy, so either some people can use magic, or everybody's magic fails (This one is my personal prediction, as I believe that the finiteness of magic has been hinted at. I may be just reading into things, however). It's fine if Magic is weighing some factors too heavily, or too lightly, or if the old conditions no longer apply. It's fine for it to be too risk-averse or too reckless. But it has to have some basis for holding on to the decision, and the story needs to at least acknowledge the existence of a reason.

Tedd's dad wanted to hide magic from people to protect them. Arthur wants to take magic from people who have it to protect people who don't. Magic should also have a reason for why it works the way it does.

Tedd can't just make magic better as if it's a no-brainer. Ideally, if Tedd is going to force Magic into changing to a system where it doesn't change anymore, even if it's a net benefit overall, there should be some kind of consequence for the decision to justify why it didn't work that way before.

(There were a bunch of links to go with this post, but being a lurker has bit me in the rear a bit. Sorry)

Rater202

2017-11-11, 02:06 PM

@^

Magic's dumb reason has repeatedly been stated to be because it's a Drama Queen that doesn't play fair. Thus, I have no qualms with Tedd forcing it to play fair.

There were never any unique abilities. It was always all magic, just people with unique spells, so I fail to see why everybody having magic makes them less unique since they're all going to still have unique spells unless Tedd goes overboard with spell copying.

We don't know Arthur's reasoning for wanting Magic to Reset. We do know that Voltaire wants magic to reset as part of his nefarious plan, and we know that Arthur has consistently been treated as bad news or shown to be sinister and presumably is trying to force magic to change without the consent of any of the magic users working for the government or his counterparts in other governments(you know, the people who would lose the powers and possibly their jobs) and thus, is a bad guy here.

Strictly speaking, all Pandora said was that Tedd didn't really need the glove. The Gloss itself still helped, and the existence of functional buttons and "programmed" enchantments means that the watches are still magitech. He's probably going to keep making those or similar things over Wands unless he somehow gets access to a steady supply of blank wands.

Tedd doing that has a built in consequence: Everyone would know about Magic. And Unless Tedd was in a disquised form, people would know it was him. Could get negative government attention on him and his friends(Main eight fighting off Government agents trying to take the TF Gun up until all those people who'd throw a fit if Tedd's Dad got fired step in and throw a fit about Edward's family being hassled?) Could attracted bad magic users wanted an easy source of wands coming from the seer. Could bring Noriko back, since her kid is a Wizard. Could attract anti-magic nutjobs, or any of the other problems that come from an unmasked world suddenly being a thing.

It could also result in Tedd becoming estranged from Edward over Edward's own policy on magic and insistence that it's right, eventually leading to a confrontation.

Forum Explorer

2017-11-11, 05:25 PM

Rater202

2017-11-11, 09:00 PM

I think Muninn hit why I want magic to change, though my reason is slightly different. Everyone, absolutely everyone, has magic these days. Of the main characters, who doesn't have magic? Even many of the minor characters have gained magic.

And what's the problem with that? Seriously, what's the problem with EGS shifting into Urban fantasy?

Douglas

2017-11-13, 01:40 AM

Well, so much for Ashley's reaction being interesting. This makes perfect sense, is practical, demonstrates something of both Magus' abilities and ethics, and gets to the action faster, but it's still a bit disappointing for negating that potential character moment.

Maybe it'll get at least partially made up for when Ashley wakes up, however long that will take. I can hope, at least.

Meanwhile, the action has its own interest. Magus and Sirleck seem to be using magic to cut through gordian knots with brutal directness so far, but I'm sure they'll eventually run into someone they can't just overwhelm.

Also, with regard to Sirleck's upcoming betrayal of Magus, I don't think that's going to happen until after Magus touches the Dewitchery Diamond and gets a body all to himself back. A big part of the appeal of taking Magus' body is that no one will miss him, and taking him when it would mean Elliot's permanent disappearance would negate that.

TaRix

2017-11-13, 02:18 AM

This is my little tinfoil hat about Magus: He was rendered bodiless because of the diamond--Ellen's creation somehow sucked his body/essence from whatever parallel/alternate dimension Magus came from. The odd means of him regaining a body is just him making the same thing happen in reverse.

Rater202

2017-11-13, 02:24 AM

Vinyadan

2017-11-13, 06:12 AM

Rater202

2017-11-13, 08:35 AM

Has anyone thought of the diamond as origin for Susan and Diane? Like how Nioi and the other one came to be? Although it would be veeery strange to magically change a detail in a child and then have it touch the diamond. Maybe someone cursed Diane with distrust (or Susan with joy of living) and then had her touch it when he realized what he had done?

That was one of the first things anyone said ever about them--it even came up in Canon when Grace and Ellen first met Diane.

Problem 1: Diane and Susan being possibly related is a Retcon. Dan recently pointed out that he only did it after the fact becuase fans at the time of her frist apearance pointed out that she was similar looking to Susan and later decided "hey, there might be something to that."

2: In-Universe, that would have necessitated Abraham the Wizard showing up to kill one of them. As neither s dead, Abraham's statue was in England, not America, and Abraham had that whole crises of conscience about the letter of his vow over the spirit of his vow with Elle, it just.. it just doesn't fit.

3: It's more probably that the differences between Susan and Diane are the result of different upbringing than some magic curse.

Forum Explorer

2017-11-13, 05:11 PM

And what's the problem with that? Seriously, what's the problem with EGS shifting into Urban fantasy?

1. He's already got a big problem with over explaining things. Take Magnus possessing Elliot. We're already being promised an explanation for it. We really don't need to know why this works the way it does.

2. His magic is too 'easy'. It's safe, clean, reliable, and easy to use and develop. It's all the difficulty of using Linux.

Basically I feel he's shifting more to Sci-Fi, then Urban Fantasy. Everything is safe and easy with no downsides. And it's boring. Sarah feeling jealous of everyone because she has no magic was interesting. Tedd coming up with new inventions with crazy new technology and the like was interesting. Grace being a weird alien-hybrid was interesting. Even the 'anime style' martial arts was interesting.

Now we've got Sarah learning magic. Tedd using magic. Grace is basically magic but inherent. And anime martial arts is just magic. So instead of a wide variety of stuff we've got the same thing again and again. And everyone has it and loads of it. Rhonda is super talented, Tedd is a 'Seer', Sarah has a super spell, Nanese is so talented extra dimensional griffons think she's royalty, Elliot has a super hero spell, Susan has the talent to hunt vampires, and Grace is Grace. And so on. It really feels stale at this point.

Rater202

2017-11-13, 05:43 PM

1. He's already got a big problem with over explaining things. Take Magnus possessing Elliot. We're already being promised an explanation for it. We really don't need to know why this works the way it does.

2. His magic is too 'easy'. It's safe, clean, reliable, and easy to use and develop. It's all the difficulty of using Linux.

Basically I feel he's shifting more to Sci-Fi, then Urban Fantasy. Everything is safe and easy with no downsides. And it's boring. Sarah feeling jealous of everyone because she has no magic was interesting. Tedd coming up with new inventions with crazy new technology and the like was interesting. Grace being a weird alien-hybrid was interesting. Even the 'anime style' martial arts was interesting.

Now we've got Sarah learning magic. Tedd using magic. Grace is basically magic but inherent. And anime martial arts is just magic. So instead of a wide variety of stuff we've got the same thing again and again. And everyone has it and loads of it. Rhonda is super talented, Tedd is a 'Seer', Sarah has a super spell, Nanese is so talented extra dimensional griffons think she's royalty, Elliot has a super hero spell, Susan has the talent to hunt vampires, and Grace is Grace. And so on. It really feels stale at this point.

Yeah, but it was established years ago that this was all running on the same juice. Tedd's probably still gonna make and program devices that enchant people(practically speaking, he has to. where's he going to keep getting blank wands? WEsecially if he plays chicken with magic and wins, cuse then he might get in trouble with the FBI and they'd try to keep him from getting Wands for a bit), Elliot, Nanase, Ellen, Greg, and Justinare still gonna have Martial Arts themes in their magic to lesser or Greater Extent, and Grace is still gonna be a half-alien fireproof anti-regenerator Wereschool who absorbs transformation spells to gain their power. The fact that they all run on the same juice doens't change that, so I'm having problems seeing your complaint.

And the reason magic is "safe" is becuase the premise of the comic just doesn't work if it's too dangerous. You know, transformations for fun/gags/fanservice instead of transformations for horror.

If that's a problem, then even if Magic Changes(and it's not. Dan's not gonna throw out a decade and a half of exposition, that's not his thing, even ignoring all the other clues like going to the effort to do a thing for Ellen's spells that would be pointless if magic changed and she lost them,) it would probably still feel too safe to you.

Lord Raziere

2017-11-13, 06:05 PM

Yeah, I don't see EGS becoming unsafe any time soon.

I mean that'd be like Dresden Files becoming non-snarky.

Its just not happening.

Forum Explorer

2017-11-13, 06:10 PM

Yeah, but it was established years ago that this was all running on the same juice. Tedd's probably still gonna make and program devices that enchant people(practically speaking, he has to. where's he going to keep getting blank wands? WEsecially if he plays chicken with magic and wins, cuse then he might get in trouble with the FBI and they'd try to keep him from getting Wands for a bit), Elliot, Nanase, Ellen, Greg, and Justinare still gonna have Martial Arts themes in their magic to lesser or Greater Extent, and Grace is still gonna be a half-alien fireproof anti-regenerator Wereschool who absorbs transformation spells to gain their power. The fact that they all run on the same juice doens't change that, so I'm having problems seeing your complaint.

And the reason magic is "safe" is becuase the premise of the comic just doesn't work if it's too dangerous. You know, transformations for fun/gags/fanservice instead of transformations for horror.

If that's a problem, then even if Magic Changes(and it's not. Dan's not gonna throw out a decade and a half of exposition, that's not his thing, even ignoring all the other clues like going to the effort to do a thing for Ellen's spells that would be pointless if magic changed and she lost them,) it would probably still feel too safe to you.

It's not just the same juice, it's the same mechanics behind it. Cast more magic, gain more powers. Casting spells is easy, and the powers you get are always good for you. So there is no real specialization. Or effort.

Yeah, probably. Dan does a good slice of life story, but his habit of being a such a fan of his own characters really undercuts whatever tension he tries to build when he moves away from slice of life stuff. Like the current arc. I'm much more invested in the EGS: NP right now, because it actually has more tension in it and is thus more interesting.