Abuse of the Symbiotic template(no cheese)

[danielxcutter]

The Symbiotic template combines two creatures of the animal, plant, humanoid, or vermin type.

The "guest" must be at least two sizes smaller than the "host", though fortunately they do not have to be of the same type. The combined creature uses the host's physical stats, HD, AC, and skill ranks, the guest's mental stats, and both of their attacks, special attacks/qualities, and adds the skill ranks of the guest to the host's as a racial bonus. They can detach too, but it damages the host a bit, and it takes a day to reattach, plus they can't be disturbed or it fails and both take Con damage.

Before you ask, yes, this is a ridiculously powerful template.

So, how would you abuse it? Please follow the guidelines below:


No template-stacking to change the type of either the host or the guest.


Don't bend the rules into grammatical pretzels of convulted eldritch geometry, but don't worry about cheese - if it specifically works that way, then it's fine. D&D is a world where full casters can make origami out of the laws of reality and consider physics as optional guidelines at the very best. You can literally say "A Wizard did it", because they probably can.


Oh, I should probably mention this: I'm not trying to make a PC character out of this. Rather, I'm just curious about what level of ridiculous power we can achieve. (Which is probably a lot.)


I'm not sure if the magical beast type counts as animal for the purposes of Symbiotic. Pretty sure it's not, but I'd like to listen to the forum hivemind first. This will be updated when I reach a conclusion.


Here's the ideas I've come up with(and are kinda stupid)


Caster + Large or larger(if the guest caster is Small or smaller)/Huge or larger(if the caster is Medium-sized) creature: Uses the sky-high mental stats of the guest caster and the physical capabilities of the host - and most creatures large enough to be a host are probably tough beatsticks.


Anything non-mindless + Devastation Vermin: Hey, technically these guys are vermin too! And they're large enough to stick really anything on them as a guest! Hmm... you know, this could be combined with the first idea, now that I think of that. :smalleek:

[ben-zayb]

Have the guest be a Fine-sized Hagunemnon. You now have access to any 4 Extraordinary abilities at a time. How far you optimize this is up to you, but you can get pretty much just a notch below Pun-Pun with this.

[danielxcutter]

Have the guest be a Fine-sized Hagunemnon. You now have access to any 4 Extraordinary abilities at a time. How far you optimize this is up to you, but you can get pretty much just a notch below Pun-Pun with this.

Abberation type, silly. The Symbiotic template only works on creatures that were originally of the animal, humanoid, plant, or vermin type.

[ben-zayb]

Abberation type, silly. The Symbiotic template only works on creatures that were originally of the animal, humanoid, plant, or vermin type.
Fang of Lolth's capstone is an Extraordinary Ability that grants the vermin type.:smallwink:

[danielxcutter]

Fang of Lolth's capstone is an Extraordinary Ability that grants the vermin type.:smallwink:

You know very well this goes against the spirit of the OP, if not the letter. :smallannoyed:

[Florian]

Memory Moss is a keeper! (and prolly the most dangerous thing to have in your garden)

[danielxcutter]

Memory Moss is a keeper! (and prolly the most dangerous thing to have in your garden)

Um... Google has failed me. Where is it? Does it have another name?

[Morcleon]

Have the symbiote part be an Intensified Awakened Dread Blossom Swarm. Not only do you get 36 for all your mental stats, you get swarm traits, plant traits, Regeneration 5, and some poison attack thing. Oh, and a couple of feats.

[danielxcutter]

Have the symbiote part be an Intensified Awakened Dread Blossom Swarm. Not only do you get 36 for all your mental stats, you get swarm traits, plant traits, Regeneration 5, and some poison attack thing. Oh, and a couple of feats.

That's so cheesy I could top a pizza with it.

[Inevitability]

Ruin Swarms (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/ruinSwarm.htm) are Vermin. They're also small enough for a human to merge with.

[Morcleon]

That's so cheesy I could top a pizza with it.

I usually stack it on an Incarnate Construct Warforged so I can put an extra +2 LA onto the character. :smallwink:

[Buufreak]

That's so cheesy I could top a pizza with it.

I mean, your OP is about as contradictory as they come. Abuse, but no cheese, but cheese is okay. What kind of results did you expect?

[Florian]

Um... Google has failed me. Where is it? Does it have another name?

Memory Moss is the AD&D/PF name. For whatever reason, it got renamed in 3,5E, still beginning with "M", when my memory serves right.

Practically, it´s just a tiny plant with the ability to simply rob nearby casters of their mental stats and transfer all their prepped spells and use both for itself.

[Bohandas]

The "guest" must be at least two sizes smaller than the "host", though fortunately they do not have to be of the same type. The combined creature uses the guest's physical stats, HD, AC, and skill ranks, the host's mental stats, and both of their attacks, special attacks/qualities, and adds the skill ranks of the host to the guest's as a racial bonus. They can detach too, but it damages the host a bit, and it takes a day to reattach, plus they can't be disturbed or it fails and both take Con damage.

Is that the right way around? That doesn't sound right. Are you sure it's not the host's physical stats?

[Matrota]

To be fair, I don't think you can ask about template abuse without allowing cheese. That's literally what abuse is. It's cheese.

[ben-zayb]

You know very well this goes against the spirit of the OP, if not the letter. :smallannoyed:

Not really, on both accounts. A Protean's main schtick is pretty much getting Extraordinary Abilities based on any combination of nondeific monsters.

[danielxcutter]

I mean, your OP is about as contradictory as they come. Abuse, but no cheese, but cheese is okay. What kind of results did you expect?

Hmm... okay, maybe I should have worded it better. High-powered stuff like Incantrix, which works exactly as intended and is still OP is fine, but assumptions like using the Corpsecrafter feats to make an uber-Necropolitan is not.


Memory Moss is the AD&D/PF name. For whatever reason, it got renamed in 3,5E, still beginning with "M", when my memory serves right.

Practically, it´s just a tiny plant with the ability to simply rob nearby casters of their mental stats and transfer all their prepped spells and use both for itself.

Do you remember the 3.5 name?


Is that the right way around? That doesn't sound right. Are you sure it's not the host's physical stats?

Oh cr*p, better fix that quickly! :smalleek:


To be fair, I don't think you can ask about template abuse without allowing cheese. That's literally what abuse is. It's cheese.

I meant cheese that doesn't include template abuse, but anything else goes.


Not really, on both accounts. A Protean's main schtick is pretty much getting Extraordinary Abilities based on any combination of nondeific monsters.

I'm pretty sure that's supposed to be used for copying the (Ex) abilities of monsters, not class features.

[ben-zayb]

I'm pretty sure that's supposed to be used for copying the (Ex) abilities of monsters, not class features.
How can you be sure, though? This isn't your bog-standard shapechange, greater metamorphosis, or wild shape, especially since Alter Shape really doesn't get anything aside from natural attacks and extraordinary ability. There is literally no precedent for such an ability, and any claims to RAI is questionable at best without confirmation from editor/writer.

Of course, if you're not comfortable with how cut-and-dry RAW works on this monster, you don't have to take it as an answer.

[danielxcutter]

How can you be sure, though? This isn't your bog-standard shapechange, greater metamorphosis, or wild shape, especially since Alter Shape really doesn't get anything aside from natural attacks and extraordinary ability. There is literally no precedent for such an ability, and any claims to RAI is questionable at best without confirmation from editor/writer.

Of course, if you're not comfortable with how cut-and-dry RAW works on this monster, you don't have to take it as an answer.

Well, RAW-wise you are correct, I suppose.

How would you do it, by the way?