Does Circlet of Persuasion help with the Charisma Check in Planar Binding?

[magicalmagicman]

Does Circlet of Persuasion help with the Charisma Check in Planar Binding?


This silver headband grants a +3 competence bonus on the wearer’s Charisma-based checks.


A competence bonus (or penalty) affects a character's performance of a particular task, as in the case of the bardic ability to inspire competence. Such a bonus may apply on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, caster level checks, or any other checks to which a bonus relating to level or skill ranks would normally apply. It does not apply on ability checks, damage rolls, initiative checks, or other rolls that aren't related to a character's level or skill ranks. Multiple competence bonuses don't stack; only the highest bonus applies.

I read somewhere that by RAW planar binding's charisma check is not an ability check but I failed to find the RAW.

[Deophaun]

RAW, it doesn't really matter if the Charisma check is an ability check or not (it is) due to the "other rolls that aren't related to a character's level or skill ranks" clause.

That said, that clause does make the circlet vendor trash as that's really the only reason to have one. (Sure, you technically get 900+1350x9+ gp worth of bonuses, but a) you don't need most of them b) you could get them cheaper by splitting up the bonuses across slots and c) on the ones you do care about, a +3 competence bonus isn't going to cut it anyway).

[tiercel]

Huh, that's really weird... I'd never noticed that in the competence bonus description. (I've seen people cite the Circlet as useful for planar binding, turning undead, opposed Cha checks for charm person....)

Arguably, the Circlet's modifier might still apply to checks like casting telekinesis as a sorcerer (combat maneuver rolls are Cha-based, not Str-based, and explicitly use caster level) or possibly a feat like Force of Personality, where Cha replaces Wis, so your Will save is now a Cha-based check, and saving throws explicitly can benefit from competence bonuses.

On the skill front, even if the Circlet were to ONLY affect skill checks (which seems unlikely, given the item's wording), a bard who actually uses Perform, Diplomacy, Bluff, Gather Information, and UMD checks would still find the Circlet a reasonable deal.

[SirNMN]

I don't thinks it would apply because as you just pointed out it doesn't help ability checks. It is a charisma check not a skill check

[tyckspoon]

I think there's a reasonable argument that the Circlet's entry as a specific magic item overrides the general case of what Competence bonuses are supposed to apply to; Circlet broadly says all Charisma based checks, so that's what it does. Wouldn't be the first or last time that happened - Dodge bonuses are "never granted by spells or magic items", but the AC and Ref bonus granted by Haste is still Dodge. That's what specific beats general and exception-basedan design means. No matter how absolute the general rule is, if you write an item/feat/spell/whatever that specifically is not bound by it, then you can ignore the general rule.

[Geigan]

I think there's a reasonable argument that the Circlet's entry as a specific magic item overrides the general case of what Competence bonuses are supposed to apply to; Circlet broadly says all Charisma based checks, so that's what it does. Wouldn't be the first or last time that happened - Dodge bonuses are "never granted by spells or magic items", but the AC and Ref bonus granted by Haste is still Dodge. That's what specific beats general and exception-basedan design means. No matter how absolute the general rule is, if you write an item/feat/spell/whatever that specifically is not bound by it, then you can ignore the general rule.

Additional example of an exception specifically relating to competence bonus items. Bracers of Archery, Greater. Specific case of a bonus to damage rolls via competence bonus.

[Kitsuneymg]

In short: yes

In long:


The circlet of persuasion (Dungeon Master’s Guide, 252) grants a +3 competence bonus on Charisma-based checks. Does this bonus apply on turn/rebuke undead checks?

Yes—anything described as a Charisma check (as well as all Charisma-based skill checks) would gain this bonus.
- Wizards of the Coast - Main35FAQv03142008.pdf - Page 58

[Dingoman]

Not sure if it actually helps for the planar binding check, but it does help with the Malconvoker's deceitful barganing bluff check which gives a bonus (or penalty) to the planar binding check.

[magicalmagicman]

Thank you for the overwhelming yes.

Specific magic items giving competence bonus to damage and dodge, plus the FAQ entry.

[Deophaun]

Thank you for the overwhelming yes.
Hardly overwhelming. The FAQ is basically someone at WotC's opinion, and often poorly researched at that. And specific items specifically saying they give a specific type of bonus to a specific attribute naturally overrules the more general "never to ability checks/damage" rule, but a generic "Charisma-based checks" doesn't.

It's still RAW: No.

[Mordaedil]

Huh, so that means that the circlet is basically a +3 to DC's for sorcerers.

[tiercel]

Huh, so that means that the circlet is basically a +3 to DC's for sorcerers.
Wellllllll, not so much; sorcerer DCs aren't Cha-based checks made by a sorcerer.

The "specific trumps general" argument for Cha-based checks made by the actual Circlet-wearer seems reasonable to me, though, given that other items break the general rules of bonus types (even FAQ aside).

[RoboEmperor]

Huh, so that means that the circlet is basically a +3 to DC's for sorcerers.

Spell DC is not a check. You don't roll anything, the other guy rolls.

[weckar]

Paladin love this circlet, don't they? Divine grace and all?