How to Set Skill Check DCs?

[Mars Ultor]

I’ve some questions about Skill checks and how to rate them. Some of these things seem like they should be over 20, which would make them impossible for Commoners, but I think normal people should still be able to pass them.

How specific do you make your players get when they want to search something? They know the prince’s ring is in the room, can they just search “the room,” or do they have to search the dresser, the chest, the bed, the floor, etc.? Do you divide the room into 5x5 boxes?


You're carrying something heavy into your house and you set down your keys to free up your hands. The next morning you go to get your keys and you can't find them. They're actually in plain sight, but not where you'd normally find them. What the Spot DC? The Search DC?

You're afraid of someone stealing your new heavy thing and you sleep with a weapon under your pillow. When you leave the next morning I come into your house. If I don't specifically search under the pillow and see it immediately, what's the Search DC to find it in a general "I search the room"? Would a PC have to specifically search the bed just to have a chance?

There’s a chest in your bedroom, and I ransack it. You’ve got a pouch of coins wrapped up in your shirt, and a bejeweled dagger. Do I find both, or do I have to roll separately for each? Your chest also has a false bottom, do I find that in the initial search, or is that a separate roll? Are there separate DCs for different things?


You come into a room, a person is seemingly tied to a chair. He’s not actually tied up, he can throw off the rope when he chooses. Do you get a Spot to see it’s a slip knot of some kind? If you intentionaly look at it, what’s the Use Rope DC to see that the rope can just be pulled apart? Is it a contested skill check versus the person who originally "tied" the knot? What's the DC for tying a fake knot?

You find a rag with a dried red substance on it. What skill to determine if it’s blood, or wine, or something else? What kind of check do you make to smell something?

Someone was killed with a dagger; you’ve collected one from each suspect. What skill do you use to know which one most likely caused the wound? Is it a Heal check? Craft: Weaponsmith? Something else?

I’ve been arrested for breaking into your house, I’ve been searched and my weapons confiscated, but a friend hugs me and goes to pass me a dagger. Neither of us have Sleight of Hand, it can’t be used untrained, and it seems like it would be higher than a DC 10 Dexterity check. Is doesn’t seem like it should be impossible, but RAW makes it appear that it is.

The king decides not to imprison me for stealing the prince’s ring, he’s going to send me on a mission to steal something for him. I’m standing in his room and the walls are covered with animal heads, trophies, shields, and weapons. I’ve heard he’s got a legendary short sword mounted on his wall. While the king is talking to me, I try to find the sword. The room is thirty by twenty with a fifteen-foot ceiling, dark wood paneling, the top ten feet are covered with all of his bric-a-brac, it’s lit by torches and minimal sunlight. What’s the Spot DC to find that particular sword? What’s the DC if I Search for the sword?


Before I leave on the mission, I go to see the king again. I’ve had a reasonable duplicate of the sword made, and I smuggle it inside. When the king leaves the room for a moment, I quickly grab the real sword and hide it under my cloak. I’m going to replace it with the phony, but I hear the king returning. I can’t replace the sword in time, so I take a quick step away and pretend to look at something else.

Is it a Bluff check for me versus the king’s Sense Motive? Let’s say it is, and he senses something is fishy. His first thought probably isn’t that I’m stealing antique swords off his wall, does he get a Wisdom check or something?

He decides that he’s going to look around where I’m standing. What’s the Spot DC? The Search DC? Is there a “something’s not right” DC?


A slightly different scenario; perhaps as the king was returning I stuck the fake sword on the wall. I didn’t quite get it in the right position. If he investigates the area, what’s the Spot DC and Search DC to determine that the sword is pointed the wrong direction and tilted?

Perhaps I had ample time to take the original, conceal it, replace it with the phony, and move an ample distance away. I realize that I’ve still screwed up in that it’s pointed the wrong way. The king has no reason to suspect anything, or maybe he’s suspicious of me, but fails his Sense Motive. What’s the DC to Spot that the sword is wrong? After I leave he tells a guard to take a quick look around, and see if I took anything. The guard isn’t really familiar with the room, but tries to be thorough. What’s the Spot DC to notice the sword is wrong? What’s the Search DC to find it? If he has no bonuses and does a “Take 20” can he ever find that something is amiss? Again, is there a “I can’t put my finger on it” DC?


Also, let's say I take the special sword home and hide it in my featherbed. I've actually cut open the edge of the mattress, slipped the sword inside, and sew up the seam. Someone breaks in to the bedroom and they say, "I look under the bed, I pull all the sheets and blankets off the bed. I check the pillows, too. I check the top of the canopy and the curtains. I see if there's anything between the mattress and the frame." They checked everything but the mattress. Does a high enough Skill check mean they find the new stitching or feel a hard spot in the mattress, or do they not find it because they didn't state it specifically? Is it one roll to search everything, or does each spot have its own roll? What's the DC to find something sewn into a mattress?

[Deophaun]

How specific do you make your players get when they want to search something? They know the prince’s ring is in the room, can they just search “the room,” or do they have to search the dresser, the chest, the bed, the floor, etc.? Do you divide the room into 5x5 boxes?
The number of rolls I require is directly proportional to how tedious I want the session to be.

You're carrying something heavy into your house and you set down your keys to free up your hands. The next morning you go to get your keys and you can't find them. They're actually in plain sight, but not where you'd normally find them. What the Spot DC? The Search DC?
-. In real life, I don't have Spot or Search DCs to contend with. Otherwise, this is a fine object hiding in plain sight, so... nothing, really.

You're afraid of someone stealing your new heavy thing and you sleep with a weapon under your pillow. When you leave the next morning I come into your house. If I don't specifically search under the pillow and see it immediately, what's the Search DC to find it in a general "I search the room"? Would a PC have to specifically search the bed just to have a chance?
Probably DC 10. And only if you want to be very tedious (he wouldn't have to search the pillow, just the square it's in).

There’s a chest in your bedroom, and I ransack it. You’ve got a pouch of coins wrapped up in your shirt, and a bejeweled dagger. Do I find both, or do I have to roll separately for each? Your chest also has a false bottom, do I find that in the initial search, or is that a separate roll? Are there separate DCs for different things?
Here, I'm going to just put this quote from the SRD in bold:

It takes a full-round action to search a 5-foot-by-5-foot area or a volume of goods 5 feet on a side.

You come into a room, a person is seemingly tied to a chair. He’s not actually tied up, he can throw off the rope when he chooses. Do you get a Spot to see it’s a slip knot of some kind? If you intentionaly look at it, what’s the Use Rope DC to see that the rope can just be pulled apart? Is it a contested skill check versus the person who originally "tied" the knot? What's the DC for tying a fake knot?
In order: Probably. What the DM says (if Use Rope is appropriate). If the DM wants it to be. What the DM says.

You find a rag with a dried red substance on it. What skill to determine if it’s blood, or wine, or something else? What kind of check do you make to smell something?
Has the character been exposed to blood? Has the character been exposed to wine? Probably don't need a check to differentiate.

Someone was killed with a dagger; you’ve collected one from each suspect. What skill do you use to know which one most likely caused the wound? Is it a Heal check? Craft: Weaponsmith? Something else?
Heal.

I’ve been arrested for breaking into your house, I’ve been searched and my weapons confiscated, but a friend hugs me and goes to pass me a dagger. Neither of us have Sleight of Hand, it can’t be used untrained, and it seems like it would be higher than a DC 10 Dexterity check. Is doesn’t seem like it should be impossible, but RAW makes it appear that it is.
It actually probably should be impossible. You're trying to slip a knife to a prisoner in view of the guards. Yes, you need some training to have even a 5% hope of success.

The king decides not to imprison me for stealing the prince’s ring, he’s going to send me on a mission to steal something for him. I’m standing in his room and the walls are covered with animal heads, trophies, shields, and weapons. I’ve heard he’s got a legendary short sword mounted on his wall. While the king is talking to me, I try to find the sword. The room is thirty by twenty with a fifteen-foot ceiling, dark wood paneling, the top ten feet are covered with all of his bric-a-brac, it’s lit by torches and minimal sunlight. What’s the Spot DC to find that particular sword? What’s the DC if I Search for the sword?
Well, a "sword" is a small object, but it's not actually hiding; after all, you don't put things on display to hide them. So, you see all the swords. If you know what the sword you want looks like, you see it. If not, well, you see swords.

Before I leave on the mission, I go to see the king again. I’ve had a reasonable duplicate of the sword made, and I smuggle it inside. When the king leaves the room for a moment, I quickly grab the real sword and hide it under my cloak. I’m going to replace it with the phony, but I hear the king returning. I can’t replace the sword in time, so I take a quick step away and pretend to look at something else.

Is it a Bluff check for me versus the king’s Sense Motive? Let’s say it is, and he senses something is fishy. His first thought probably isn’t that I’m stealing antique swords off his wall, does he get a Wisdom check or something?
Again, sword isn't hiding that it's not on the wall. He notices. No check. It's now a Bluff check to make him think he's a frog.

He decides that he’s going to look around where I’m standing. What’s the Spot DC? The Search DC? Is there a “something’s not right” DC?
For what? Spot is looking. Search is for searching. If he wants to find something concealed on you, that's Search contested by your Sleight of Hand check.

A slightly different scenario; perhaps as the king was returning I stuck the fake sword on the wall. I didn’t quite get it in the right position. If he investigates the area, what’s the Spot DC and Search DC to determine that the sword is pointed the wrong direction and tilted?
Probably A Spot check best opposed by your Disguise check, which is what determines whether you've pointed it in the wrong direction to begin with..

Perhaps I had ample time to take the original, conceal it, replace it with the phony, and move an ample distance away. I realize that I’ve still screwed up in that it’s pointed the wrong way. The king has no reason to suspect anything, or maybe he’s suspicious of me, but fails his Sense Motive. What’s the DC to Spot that the sword is wrong?
Same as it was before, but now the king needs to take a conscious action to Spot, which he probably won't until something else calls his attention to the sword.

After I leave he tells a guard to take a quick look around, and see if I took anything. The guard isn’t really familiar with the room, but tries to be thorough. What’s the Spot DC to notice the sword is wrong? What’s the Search DC to find it? If he has no bonuses and does a “Take 20” can he ever find that something is amiss?
Up to the DM. If the room is meticulously dust free, probably not. If the room is dusty, then he might have a chance to see a disturbance there. If there is a clear logic to how things are arranged, he might get the idea something is out of place. All up to the DM.

[Darth Ultron]

[QUOTE=Mars Ultor;22105215]
How specific do you make your players get when they want to search something? They know the prince’s ring is in the room, can they just search “the room,” or do they have to search the dresser, the chest, the bed, the floor, etc.? Do you divide the room into 5x5 boxes?

Very specific. Often just one 5x5 square or one item. But only for important game things. If something is just '''in'' a room the PC can look for it with no roll.




You're carrying something heavy into your house and you set down your keys to free up your hands. The next morning you go to get your keys and you can't find them. They're actually in plain sight, but not where you'd normally find them. What the Spot DC? The Search DC?

DC for something like this is 10.



You're afraid of someone stealing your new heavy thing and you sleep with a weapon under your pillow. When you leave the next morning I come into your house. If I don't specifically search under the pillow and see it immediately, what's the Search DC to find it in a general "I search the room"? Would a PC have to specifically search the bed just to have a chance?

''Under a pillow'' is not exactly a hiding spot...so this would be more a search the room with no roll and find it. If a roll was needed, it would be like 5. If you ''search'' a bed, really the first thing you do is move the pillows.



There’s a chest in your bedroom, and I ransack it. You’ve got a pouch of coins wrapped up in your shirt, and a bejeweled dagger. Do I find both, or do I have to roll separately for each? Your chest also has a false bottom, do I find that in the initial search, or is that a separate roll? Are there separate DCs for different things?

Again, you would not roll to search something like a chest....you can see and pick up and touch all the items and don't need to roll. You can't search for a false bottom that you don't know is there...and this is the sort of thing checks are for. You can search for something ''unusual, but general'' .



You come into a room, a person is seemingly tied to a chair. He’s not actually tied up, he can throw off the rope when he chooses. Do you get a Spot to see it’s a slip knot of some kind? If you intentionaly look at it, what’s the Use Rope DC to see that the rope can just be pulled apart? Is it a contested skill check versus the person who originally "tied" the knot? What's the DC for tying a fake knot?

In general, I'd never let spot be used for something so specific. Spot lets you see things, it does not make you a rope or knot expert. You can ''see'' something all day long, but can't understand it without some knowledge. You can't ''Spot'' and answer to multiple choice math question, for example.

As someone who was taught by the navy all about ropes and knots...I can tell you this is very specialized knowledge and the DC's are well above 20. The vast majority of landlubbers don't know a knot from a not. This might make a good Use Rope contested skill check. Tying a fake not is not so hard...I couple of the basic knots are ''tight, but come loose if you do the right thing'', so maybe 12-15 Dc.



You find a rag with a dried red substance on it. What skill to determine if it’s blood, or wine, or something else? What kind of check do you make to smell something?



For things like this, use an ability check. In this case intelligence. Alchemy, cooking, brewing, and other such professions/crafts can identify things. Common things like a DC of 5 or 10.

Though, again, this is a lot more of a no roll type of thing. Most people can identify vague things like ''blood'' or ''wine''. You only need a check to find out the specific type...if possible.

There is no scent mechanic. A character smells anything reasonable, or whatever the DM says they smell.
[QUOTE=Mars Ultor;22105215]
Someone was killed with a dagger; you’ve collected one from each suspect. What skill do you use to know which one most likely caused the wound? Is it a Heal check? Craft: Weaponsmith? Something else?

The Healing skill. Or an intelligence check. Though, in general, such CSI stuff is like 500 years into the future from D&D.



I’ve been arrested for breaking into your house, I’ve been searched and my weapons confiscated, but a friend hugs me and goes to pass me a dagger. Neither of us have Sleight of Hand, it can’t be used untrained, and it seems like it would be higher than a DC 10 Dexterity check. Is doesn’t seem like it should be impossible, but RAW makes it appear that it is.

A DC of 15 to 20 would be reasonable, and would not be impossible. Yes, it would be near impossible for Lob the pig farmer, but plenty of character can do it. Of course, even better is when you simply get out of sight...even for just ten seconds..and plant the weapon: see half the movies/tv shows ever made.



The king decides not to imprison me for stealing the prince’s ring, he’s going to send me on a mission to steal something for him. I’m standing in his room and the walls are covered with animal heads, trophies, shields, and weapons. I’ve heard he’s got a legendary short sword mounted on his wall. While the king is talking to me, I try to find the sword. The room is thirty by twenty with a fifteen-foot ceiling, dark wood paneling, the top ten feet are covered with all of his bric-a-brac, it’s lit by torches and minimal sunlight. What’s the Spot DC to find that particular sword? What’s the DC if I Search for the sword?


You can just see something mounted on a wall with no check: it's not hidden. You can just say ''I look around the room for a short sword."



Before I leave on the mission, I go to see the king again. I’ve had a reasonable duplicate of the sword made, and I smuggle it inside. When the king leaves the room for a moment, I quickly grab the real sword and hide it under my cloak. I’m going to replace it with the phony, but I hear the king returning. I can’t replace the sword in time, so I take a quick step away and pretend to look at something else.
Is it a Bluff check for me versus the king’s Sense Motive? Let’s say it is, and he senses something is fishy. His first thought probably isn’t that I’m stealing antique swords off his wall, does he get a Wisdom check or something?

I would not do the bluff/sense motive unless the king thought something was wrong or the PC acted strange. It's not unreasable for him to think someone might steal the legendary antique Sword of Omens off his wall. A wisdom check is a great way to ''sense'' something wrong too.





He decides that he’s going to look around where I’m standing. What’s the Spot DC? The Search DC? Is there a “something’s not right” DC?



To see the legendary antique Sword of Omens is missing is just about automatic...or like DC 10.

A slightly different scenario; perhaps as the king was returning I stuck the fake sword on the wall. I didn’t quite get it in the right position. If he investigates the area, what’s the Spot DC and Search DC to determine that the sword is pointed the wrong direction and tilted?


Spot and search don't help here....but this can be a wisdom check of like dc 20.



Perhaps I had ample time to take the original, conceal it, replace it with the phony, and move an ample distance away. I realize that I’ve still screwed up in that it’s pointed the wrong way. The king has no reason to suspect anything, or maybe he’s suspicious of me, but fails his Sense Motive. What’s the DC to Spot that the sword is wrong? After I leave he tells a guard to take a quick look around, and see if I took anything. The guard isn’t really familiar with the room, but tries to be thorough. What’s the Spot DC to notice the sword is wrong? What’s the Search DC to find it? If he has no bonuses and does a “Take 20” can he ever find that something is amiss? Again, is there a “I can’t put my finger on it” DC?


Spot and search are useless here. You can't ''spot the sword is wrong'', you can only ''spot the sword''. And even if the sword was wrong...you'd have to know ''how'' it was wrong.

Again, wisdom is that ''something is wrong'' sense......like the guard would say ''hey am I crazy or did the legendary antique Sword of Omens point to the right yesterday?''




Also, let's say I take the special sword home and hide it in my featherbed. I've actually cut open the edge of the mattress, slipped the sword inside, and sew up the seam. Someone breaks in to the bedroom and they say, "I look under the bed, I pull all the sheets and blankets off the bed. I check the pillows, too. I check the top of the canopy and the curtains. I see if there's anything between the mattress and the frame." They checked everything but the mattress. Does a high enough Skill check mean they find the new stitching or feel a hard spot in the mattress, or do they not find it because they didn't state it specifically? Is it one roll to search everything, or does each spot have its own roll? What's the DC to find something sewn into a mattress?

It's more of one general search to find something. It would take way to long to do each one. I'd put the DC at like 20. It's not a ''great hiding spot'', any ''wise person'' would know to check the mattress.

[Pex]

For searching a room that's what Take 20 is for. It's the game mechanics way of saying the party will find whatever is important to be found. If the DC was higher than 20 + Search modifier they were never going to find it anyway so why as DM would you make them search for something you don't want them to find?

If it's a quick search for one round because the party is leaving the area that's a Spot check. If the object is not specifically hidden DC 10 + Size Modifier suffices. That's also appropriate for the situation where the party can't/isn't going to leave the area but also can't physically search for what they want to find. If it's Plot Crucial, DC is They Notice. If the object is hidden they're not going to see it anyway so DC is No. Instead it's for something that catches their eye to warrant further investigation. If it's Plot Crucial, DC is They Notice. Otherwise it's an opposed roll against the Hide roll of whoever did the hiding of the object. If you didn't stat the modifier out in creating the adventure that you'll have to wing it on who did the hiding and the logical Hide modifier that person would have.