Help with the Laws of Magic

[tedcahill2]

Without going through every single spell in the game I want to figure out a way to tell my group which spells I will not allow. In other words I want to create the laws of magic for my game. For example:
Magic cannot raise the dead
Magic cannot replicate true love
Magic cannot create permanent items
Magic cannot change your physical form

With these rules in place some spells would not be allowed in the game, but I wouldn't have to give my players a list of spells that aren't allowed, they can just come to me on a case-by-case basis if they feel like one of the spells were to break those rules and we can discuss it.

Are there other laws that can be put in place that would block some of the most powerful spells?

[Doctor Awkward]

Magic cannot create permanent items

You are going to run a campaign in which magic spells exists but magic items do not?

Wow. That can only end well...

[Waker]

You could take a note from Dresden Files Laws of Magic. Some of them obviously wouldn't make sense in a D&D game (like no killing mortals with magic), but there are a few that are applicable and that you haven't mentioned.

The Fourth Law of Magic
This law prohibits the magical domination of another being's mind. Enthrallment is the term used in the books for this. The difference between the third and fourth law can be subtle. The fourth law forbids altering desires and emotions in ways that will change what people want, rather than what they think is true (which would be a violation of the third law to accomplish a similar result)...
This would restrict many charm spells and effects.

The Sixth Law of Magic
This law prohibits any attempt to "swim against the currents of time"; any attempt to change the past through temporal manipulation for fear of paradoxes. Even magical prediction is stated in the books to be frowned upon except in the vaguest, most general forms...
This would restrict what few time spells there are as well as certain divination spells.

The Seventh Law of Magic
This law prohibits wizards from researching or dealing with Outsiders, beings from beyond the boundaries of the known universe.
Outsiders in the books refer to beings outside of reality. In D&D terms, this would reference the Far Realms and possibly where ever Vestiges reside. This one wouldn't be a bad idea considering what happened when a bunch of mages opened a portal to the Far Realm, its where Kaorti came from.

[TheFurith]

I think as far as explaining what you want I think as you put it there is fine enough. Though I'd make sure to tell them this before they sit down for the first game.

As far as what would stop those sort of things. You can. If you don't want it in your game, then don't have it in the game.

Doesn't seem terribly unreasonable to remove those things.

[noob]

Magic can not raise dead means that players will either need to optimise more their characters(due to the one level lower than the rest of the party when dying rule) to avoid death a lot more(I mean 50 damage death threshold make a lot of random deaths:in fact at high level you will die more often from that than you will gain levels unless you have a battle field control wizard and other optimizer shenanigans)
Or stay at low level for ever(due to the frequent changing of characters)

[Max Caysey]

Without going through every single spell in the game I want to figure out a way to tell my group which spells I will not allow. In other words I want to create the laws of magic for my game. For example:
Magic cannot raise the dead
Magic cannot replicate true love
Magic cannot create permanent items
Magic cannot change your physical form

With these rules in place some spells would not be allowed in the game, but I wouldn't have to give my players a list of spells that aren't allowed, they can just come to me on a case-by-case basis if they feel like one of the spells were to break those rules and we can discuss it.

Are there other laws that can be put in place that would block some of the most powerful spells?

So fighter have no chance against a flying invisible mage....

You idea is bad! Very bad!

EDIT: What I mean to say is I don't think it will work. Sorry to not be of more help, but I would discouraged this for obvious reasons!

[Zanos]

Just ban the spells you don't like. Polymorph is considered overpowered but trollshape really isn't, and wide brush strokes hit more fair spells than unfair ones.

[Gildedragon]

A simple guideline: cut off spell level access post 5. Lvls 6-9 are unnatainable or perhaps artifact level magic.

If you want to eliminate rezzing... that puts PCs in a sticky situation. Would you allow them to come back as ghosts?

What sorta flavor you want magic to have? What spells in particular you want to hold back

I'd probably go with a law of conservation of magic: a spell cannot create more magic than was put in. In more poetic terms "(mortal) magic cannot beget magic" (no wish chaining, no sanctum-spelled arcane fusions... for example)

You could eliminate certain spells (invisibility for example)and replace it with Nondescript (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fey/20030613a)

Maybe limiting invisibility to a fixed unmovable area.

[Arbane]

You could take a note from Dresden Files Laws of Magic. Some of them obviously wouldn't make sense in a D&D game (like no killing mortals with magic), but there are a few that are applicable and that you haven't mentioned.


Yes, but those aren't physical laws, just strictures wizards need to follow if they don't want to turn into Sith Lords and/or get killed by the White Council's enforcers.

[tedcahill2]

You are going to run a campaign in which magic spells exists but magic items do not?

Wow. That can only end well...

No, item creation would still exist, but a spell alone cannot create a permanent item or effect.

[Celestia]

Magic cannot raise the dead
Magic cannot replicate true love
Magic cannot create permanent items
Magic cannot change your physical form
Resurrection makes storytelling difficult, but in a game, it is beyond useful. It ensures that no player has to sit out for too long. It also prevents the issue of needing a stack of character sheets that you switch through every time you die.

Okay? I can't think of a single spell that does that, anyways.

Well that cuts out every instantaneous conjuration spell. Clearly, Wall of Stone needs to be eliminated. This brush is simply way too wide.

Conjuration wasn't enough, and you had to kill transmutation, too? And this one is completely ambiguous, too. I mean, what does that even mean? Does Cat's Grace "change your physical form?" An argument could be made for that.

[Gildedragon]

Note that 4 kills any chance at people cursed into other forms.

[Arbane]

Note that 4 kills any chance at people cursed into other forms.

No, a magician can't change their OWN physical form. Messing with other people's is perfectly OK.

[Morphic tide]

Without going through every single spell in the game I want to figure out a way to tell my group which spells I will not allow. In other words I want to create the laws of magic for my game.
Ohh, boy, this is going to dissolve into arguments about basic game functions. I'll adjust your rules to make them function.


For example:
Magic cannot raise the dead
Personally, I'd use the Laws of Magic to be concentrating themes. For this case, I'd adjust it to be "Only Divine magic can raise the dead," therefore Arcane casters can't pull the spell replication methods on the Divine caster things, while Druids and Clerics have their spell list separation to maintain thematic resurrection methods. The various resurrection methods, short of True Resurrection, all have notable downsides or hard to work clauses. Reincarnation changes your species, being likely to cause changes to physical ability scores as well as having oddities relating to suddenly being a different species, while Last Breath has to be cast in... Either a round or a minute of death to work. Granted, it resets age to a good spot for adventuring, but it's hard to pull off without active preparation and keeps the asterisk of old age being impossible to recover from.


Magic cannot replicate true love
One, True Love is overrated and nigh-impossible. Rocky relationships held stable by magic are much more interesting plot points. Two, I'd actually let forced love, and forced emotions in general, be a thing entirely, with the asterisk of the magic failing causing... issues. Of the psychotic break variety, because the person has likely had their mind warped for weeks, months or years, so significant parts of their personality are reliant on said magic. The rule you are looking for is "Magic cannot permanently alter one's mind," which means some Curses are out and Mind Rape is banned.


Magic cannot create permanent items
I'd change this to "Magic cannot create permanent matter," due to the semantic issues with Magic Items. Permanent application of effects gets weird with the wording you used, but I'm fairly sure your intended meaning was to remove permanent material creation

As a way to not be banning True Creation, you can instead have it be something like the odd old trope of lasting 366 days, which is a very long-term thing, but also makes


Magic cannot change your physical form
As with the first one, this should be an asterisk. The real issue is the means of attaining abilities through it. I'd have it be that magic cannot grant magical abilities of temporary forms, and no magic can change the power of one's life force. This cuts out any SLA or Su abilities, and also translates to never being able to alter max HP via magic. Permanent form changes are actually rather rare, with


With these rules in place some spells would not be allowed in the game, but I wouldn't have to give my players a list of spells that aren't allowed, they can just come to me on a case-by-case basis if they feel like one of the spells were to break those rules and we can discuss it.

Are there other laws that can be put in place that would block some of the most powerful spells?
So, to sum up my adjustments, the list of rules I'd be using in place of the ones you listed is this:

Only Divine magic can resurrect the dead(raising the dead is terminology used for necromancy, as well)
Mortal Magic cannot permanently alter the mind(True Love is vague and complicated, while Mind Rape is an immediate setting breaker)
Mortal Magic cannot create true matter permanently(Generally, all the Instantaneous conjurations become Permanent, being forever subject to Dispel)
Mortal Magic cannot create life force(translates to "No XP-granting or max-HP increasing spells" to make all those polymorph effects less useful)
Mortal Magic cannot grant magical powers from assumed forms(Basically, only Ex abilities, Natural Attacks and ability score effects, with max HP from Con excluded, from forms get copied)

This leaves all the problem effects in the game on some level, but gives them vital nerfs that make it possible to properly counter them. A Wizard can't Transmute themselves into a tanky abomination because their max HP will never be altered by any form of magic. And the XP granting is just to cut off a handful of high-level abuses that need massive work to make actually useful. You need some fluff work to make things function, like my 4th rule needing healing spells to be fluffed as calling upon external sources of life force, but this is worldbuilding stuff.

The "Mortal" part gives you a thing for if you decide that the campaign has progressed to a power level where all the game breakers are needed, so you can have your PCs become Immortal when the plot demands to unlock all the high level bull****.

[noob]

So all that list you just did made is to encourage players to become necropolitans?(through a divine caster doing the ritual of course)

[Telonius]

A bit modified from Fullmetal Alchemist, but:

You cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something must be lost.



Basic results: no endless loops, no "free magic," no metamagic reducers, no "ring of continuous True Strike" shenanigans. Also justifies Warlock, for having pledged your services to another power; as well as a Fall making sense for certain divine spellcasters. (Also no "of equal value" included, to give you DM wiggle room)

[noob]

So If I lose a wish and a turn to get two wishes I can have an endless loop if I go to the far realms and it is allowed by the rule you did write.
Also divine metamagic is still allowed(you give up turn attempts) and metamagic reducers too(since most metamagic reducers are not magical: it is you who knows how to apply more efficiently metamagics) as long as the metamagics still increase the spell level.
Now if I give up gold to get a +20 sword how is it different from giving up gold for getting a true strike ring?
This means that true strike rings are not more forbidden than +N swords: in both cases you give up gold and exp for a definitive boost.
Unless you mean this as a rule of everything and not of magic but then it means that I can no longer take feats nor gain skills nor gain class features since you get them at no cost(when you gain a level you get without sanctifying anything all those things you get from a level) since what you did pay for was the level and not the stuff the level gives you.