[3.5] Character/Party Advice

[Thurbane]

Hey all,

So, my wife is thinking of running a side-game which is just her and I.

It will be her first attempt at running a sandbox campaign (she has previously only run a one-shot adventure, and one module, so she's still finding her feet as a DM).

In all likelihood, I'll be running two PCs.

So I was wondering, for versatility etc., what are some good options for a two man party?

I could always just go a pair of Tier 1s, but that might be a little boring. Also, as she is a new DM, I'm likely to mop the floor with most CR appropriate encounters she comes up with in that scenario.

I've previously run a Binder and Cleric when she was DMing, so I'd probably like to avoid those.

So I'm currently thinking about the following combo:


Favored Soul/Warmage theurge (1 level dip into Warmage with Versatile Spellcaster) [possibly swapping out Dread Necro for Warmage]
Warblade/Beguiler gish (I know Beguiler isn't great for a Gish, but I've always wanted to try this combo, and I think it would make an OK skillmonkey)

...also considering the following:


Beguiler or Bard into Master of Masks
Factotum into Chameleon
Archivist (possibly a divine Gish into Hexer)

Things I'd like to avoid: Cleric and Binder (as noted above), Artificer, psionics, incarnum.

TL;DR? Looking for a versatile two man party that isn't just a pair of Tier 1s.

Cheers - T

[Gildedragon]

A binder is a solid side. Possibly binder//totemist or incarnate

The other: Generic Spellcaster (Int)/Mage of the arcane order//rogue
Or if single classed: Sha'ir (into abjurant champ? or Jade Phoenix Mage)

Swordsage//serenity Paladin
If single classed: Factotum

[flappeercraft]

I would go Crusader and Wizard. Crusader can tank, give a decent punch and heal, Wizard can be God wizard and help with all that implies.

If you want no Tier 1 at all then you can swap the Wizard for a Sorcerer or a Warlock.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Beguiler is a great choice for a small non-tier-one party, since it can fill both the arcane caster and skillmonkey roles. I wouldn't spread it too thin by trying to make a gish out of it, but you could make it a more capable arcane caster without sacrificing much skillmonkey with Shadowcraft Mage or Ultimate Magus (with Able Learner). Don't forget that anyone who can cast arcane spells can use an Eternal Wand of any spell, even one that's not on their class list.

For the other half of the duo, something that can melee is preferable, such as a Crusader. I'd actually go with a Warforged with Adamantine Body, and use a shield with the natural slam attack that adds 1.5x Str to damage. Consider making him a Crusader 5/ Binder 1/ Hellreaver 5/ Crusader 9, always binding Naberius for Hellreaver sustainability.

With a small party, more bodies is always a good thing. Obtain Familiar with Improved Familiar is good if you can afford to spend two feats, and every character should try to include Wild Cohort (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) for a (Magebred, Warbeast) Riding Dog with Trip.

[Waker]

A good rule of thumb to remember when making characters is to take into account group size. Typically when you are dealing with a smaller group, generalization is the better approach, while you should consider specializing more as the size of the group increases.
I'd also recommend Crusader for one of the two characters. It doubles as a beatstick and healer. They have enough skills that they could at least do some non-combat encounters.
For a second character I would have suggested Incarnate, since they can fake being anything, but since you vetoed Incarnum we'll look at something else. Bard is a good choice, but with such a small group you might consider taking some of the ACFs that reduce the effects of Bardic Music, such as Bardic Sage. Nature Bard is something to consider, as they have an animal companion. Dragonfire Adept or Warlock might make a good second, being a faux mage who can deal with enemies at range as well as groups.

[Thurbane]

Thanks all for the advice.

I've decided to keep it relatively simple: a Beguiler (skillmonkey/arcanist) and a Crusader (beatstick/minor healing). I would much prefer a Warblade, but they don't get Devoted Spirit.

Hopefully most books will be open to me. Most likely starting at 1st level.

Until I can afford to UMD Wands of Vigor or CLW, what are my best options for healing? I could sink some Wis into the Beguiler and take the Healing domain. I could also slap Healing Devotion onto one of the characters.

Might prestige the Beguiler into a 1-level Mindbender dip.

How would you build a 1st level 2-man party of a Beguiler and a Crusader? Looking for race and feat suggestions mostly. Only LA +0 races please. Human seems the obvious choice?

No Dragon Magazine, no psionics or incarnum, and as few setting specific (ideally no FR or Eberron) sources as possible.

[Thurbane]

OK, so I've rolled up my two characters, and here's what they look like after racial ability mods:


Chlodwig Hawkorb, Male Human Crusader 1st: Str 17, Dex 12, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 12


Belmorn Tiadremah, Male Gray Elf Beguiler 1st: Str 11, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 18, Wis 13, Cha 16

...looking for advice on feats, skills, and maneuver selection for the Crusader.

[DeTess]

Here you go, a handbook for the crusader: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?181655-Spirit-of-Steel-The-Crusader-s-Handbook-WIP

[Gruftzwerg]

How about a pair of mundanes (non-caster)?

I would suggest a Crusader and a Rogue (maybe multiclassed into ranger for tracking enemies).

The Crusader as tank and healer, while the Rogue does his stuff (face, stealth, traps..).
Imho a good duo that should be able to solve all type of encounters without being to OP (like 1spell solving an entire encounter/problem). Imho it's a good way for the DM to learn about PC abilities and how to handle em or weave stories/plots around them. Casters tend to have to many options to handle for beginning DMs. Mundane classes are easier to handle cause of lesser options of abilities to handle for the DM and easier to predict.

[Darrin]

...looking for advice on feats, skills, and maneuver selection for the Crusader.

Crusader Feats: Power Attack/IBR/Shock Trooper works well, particularly when you *want* people to hit you. Lockdown generally goes Combat Reflexes, EWP: Spiked Chain, Stand Still... but only 12 Dex, so not exactly a good fit there. You'll want to take Extra Granted Maneuver at some point... 1st is as good a place as any. I would recommend taking Martial Study at 3rd to pick up either Cloak of Deception or Shadow Jaunt from Shadow Hand. This also adds Hide as a class skill, which allows you to take Cloak Dance (XPH) at 9th. When in doubt, grab Quick Draw or Improved Initiative. Animal Devotion is a good "toolkit" to have handy with such a small party. Water Devotion gives you a 1/day minion you can "attack" to generate HP via crusader strikes/stances.

Crusader Skills: Max out Balance, Jump, and Tumble (use the Skilled City-Dweller ACF). Most of your Crusader strikes are standard actions, which leaves you with a lot of move actions. Find something interesting to do with your move action. I'd top off Diplomacy after that, but there may be overlap there with the Beguiler... or the Beguiler could dump Diplomacy to put his skill ranks into other things. Put 1 or 2 skill points into Know:Religion so you can roll to identify undead. Anything left over... maybe buy some cross-class ranks in Listen (DC 20 to pinpoint invisible creatures).

Crusader Maneuvers: There are only six strikes to choose from, and the Crusader gets five to start with, so the real question here is which strike do you not want to take? Answer: Douse the Flames. For your first two stances, I would recommend Martial Spirit and either Bolstering Voice (good "always on" buff) or Iron Guard's Glare (discourage attacks on squishy beguiler).

[Togo]

I'd go duskblade/chameloen and spirit shaman, giving you one character as an urban melee gish with some lovely obscure spells, and one character as a rural spellcaster who can still fight a bit, with both characters being able to stealth as necessary, and neither one being high enough tier to cause a novice GM problems. You also have ways of dealing with the traditional monster pitfalls of GMing - incorporeal undead, outsiders, elementals and monsters who you can't reach to melee.

Sounds like you've already designed your characters though.

[The_Jette]

In case you're still looking for ideas, a good friend of mine and I played a two man group, with one of us playing a Druid and the other playing a Rogue. It turned out really well, since the Rogue opened locks, disarmed traps, and scouted for information; while the Druid cast buffs, sent his pet into melee/ to flank, healed, and worked as a second-line fighter. We played from 1st level to 5th before the game ended and we changed to different characters.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Both characters should probably get Wild Cohort (archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) for a Magebred Warbeast Riding Dog with trip. You can get a Magebred companion as long as you're not a Druid or a Ranger.

Crusader: Extra Granted Maneuver, Stone Power. Maybe consider Shield Specialization and Shield Ward for future feats, and Extra Smiting. I would have gone with a Dragonborn (Heart), Warforged or Wild Elf or Wood Elf, with Entangling Exhalation. Get Martial Spirit, and pick five of the six first level maneuvers available.

Beguiler: Versatile Spellcaster, and get Heighten Spell at 3rd if you need that to get early access to the next higher level of spells known. Dip Mindbender for Mindsight, probably include Spell Focus for Enchantment and/or Illusion. Get Magical Training for a spellbook and the ability to add more spells to it like a Wizard does (per the Rules Compendium) and you can cast those with Versatile Spellcaster. Plan to get an Elvencraft Composite Longbow that's Masterwork three times, with three Wand Chambers. Max out UMD and put wands of immediately useful spells like Wings of Cover, Benign Transposition, Nerveskitter, etc. in that. Also get Eternal wands of situational/unique spells like Command Undead and Hound of Doom (CW). Consider taking Obtain Familiar and Improved Familiar as well, the familiar can use your UMD ranks and throw tanglefoot bags and similar.