Have you ever used Con as a dump stat?

[Luccan]

Con may very well be the only stat that is always useful for everyone (maybe Dex as well but I've seen it dumped). So I got to wondering, has anyone ever built a character with a Con bonus of -1 or lower that stayed that way? What was it and why did you choose to dump it?

[Mike Miller]

I haven't, but a caster who does well avoiding melee range could dump con

[Gildedragon]

Yes. It went pretty low. Elf, Venerable. Went necropolitan ASAP.
Why: to boost my Int as much as I could.
Character wise: interests were far more in books and arcana than outside. Undeath was the practical choice for such an ascetic researcher.

[TheFurith]

I once dumped Con to seven on a Paladin of Tyranny. But also had two levels in Blackguard and rogue and a charisma of twenty-four. So double charisma to saves. Got my AC as high as I could.

In the end seven Con seemed like a lot considering the damage I was taking. Or, rather that I wasn't taking.

[Tau'ri]

I just finished a campaign where my character was a Myr Defender (My DM pulled ideas from MTG) who had 60 HP and 20 DR to start, but the thing was I was Immune to constitution and thus had an effective zero score/modifier for that stat.

It got increasingly frustrating to play the character after awhile because I never gained HP per level other than taking the Improved Endurance feat to gain 1 per level...

so while it was never a dumped or forgotten stat, it was one I was strictly not using at all, which at the end of the day was very difficult to say the least lol

[Thurbane]

I've seen it dumped in builds that plan to become Necropolitan or other Undead.

At my table, I've seen it done once on a Sorcerer (game started around level 5 or 6), who died in the second session or so to a Manticore volley. I strongly advised the player against it at character gen, but we were all relatively new to 3.5 at the time, so he didn't think it would be that big a deal.

For my 2 coppers, I would never dump Con. No matter how much miss chance, AC and immunities you lump on your character, sooner or later you will be taking HP damage.

[Necroticplague]

Yes. It helps free up some points in point-buy when I'm building a Ghost.

[Doctor Awkward]

Yes.

I was playing the d20 version of Warcraft and had built a rogue character with the intention of going into the Infiltrator prestige class.

The DM had insisted we roll for stats, and I rolled quite poorly, with half my ability scores having a penalty.

As Infiltrator had a number of skill requirements I had no choice but to put a -9 into my Constitution.


Within the first 15 minutes of the first session, I contracted filth fever because of a rat that snuck into my tent and bit me when I attempted to chase it away (I was level 5 at the time). And I was consistently and repeatedly on the verge of death during most encounters on account of generally bad HP rolls. Nearly every Fortitude save I had to make was a complete disaster.

Needless to say, having such a low Constitution score is not a mistake I have repeated on any character ever since.

[ayvango]

Yes. It went pretty low. Elf, Venerable. Went necropolitan ASAP.
Why: to boost my Int as much as I could.

Same for me. But I took also otherworldy feat after becoming necropolitan, so I retain many useful undead features but removed undead type and its vulnerability to turning.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Only during my brief phase of trying to slap Faerie Mysteries Initiate on everything.

[GilesTheCleric]

Yes, a number of times. I most often GM, so it's usually on NPCs, but I build most NPCs to function as PCs if I were ever to get a chance to play them.

One is an archer, ECL 7. I dumped it down to 6, leaving that character with 18.5 HP. Statline was 14 str, 10 dex, 6 con, 8 int, 10 wis, 24 cha. I roleplayed him as an absent-minded, mentally childlike, mirthful figure. For reasons that I don't think I ever decided, he has a quirk in which he must always dance. He never walks or runs, only dances; his type and vigour of dancing changes with his mood.

Another is a Cleric of Kelemvor, ECL 14? I don't have the sheet handy. I dumped it down to about 4 and added the Frail flaw so she had I think around 16 HP. She was also blind, but used Shadows to replace her missing sense and to help her with her lifelong passion of painting (acrylic). Her favoured weapon in combat was Mystic Lash, since a whip could be easily swung through a large area without precision, and since it's electrified, it didn't matter if she made a clean hit (yes, I know that's not RAW, but it made sense since the spell is a touch attack).

[Rizban]

I've dumped Con, but only on builds planning to go undead ASAP. Otherwise, it's just too risky.

[Celestia]

Just for fun, I tried coming up with a character design that had the largest con penalty possible. I got a venerable unseelie fey grey elf. There just aren't a lot of templates that dump con. :/

Anyways, the plan was to use Faerie Mysteries Initiate and go necropolitain as soon as possible. So, I'd be a decrepit old elf wizard with more hit points than the barbarian. Sounds hilarious.

[Goaty14]

Yes.

I was playing the d20 version of Warcraft and had built a rogue character with the intention of going into the Infiltrator prestige class.

The DM had insisted we roll for stats, and I rolled quite poorly, with half my ability scores having a penalty.

As Infiltrator had a number of skill requirements I had no choice but to put a -9 into my Constitution.



The neat thing about rolling stats is that if your scores modifier equals +0 when added, or if you highest is 13 you can reroll, but can still get pretty nasty, I learned this the hard way by playing my first campaign dumping strength, and putting a 6 in it. Above all, most problems can be solved by asking your DM about it.

[Gildedragon]

Same for me. But I took also otherworldy feat after becoming necropolitan, so I retain many useful undead features but removed undead type and its vulnerability to turning.

Iirc otherworldly is 1st level only and necropolitan is 3rd level at earliest

[ayvango]

Iirc otherworldly is 1st level only and necropolitan is 3rd level at earliest
I deliberately dropped my level to the 1st. And sell some XP half way. After that I bought DCFS from one of elf martial feats to otherworldly. I caught party level only on 6th. You need setting with high magic availability to do something like that: both to perform necropolitan ritual, to bought revive undead and DCFS spells.

On low level magic I prefer to stack constitution with warforged + incarnate construct + feral + lolth touched. After that you could switch alignment with some great service to greater good and acquire dragonborn of bahamut template.

This are my two favourite templates for power gaming.

[barakaka]

I didn't have it as a full on dump, but I kept Con to 10 on a Shadowcaster once. That class has a lot of magical defense in the Flicker and Bolster mysteries. Bonded Familiar feat with Shadow Familiar gives you a good emergency defense mechanism.

[P.F.]

I have, once on a wizard and once on a bard. Both were essentially one-hit characters anyway, so dumping Con was just a double-down on an existing non-combatant status.

The wizard died in his second session to an AoE.

The bard lived through several sessions by being useful but essentially harmless, but drew too much attention to himself during a boss fight by first shooting the dragon with dragonsbane crossbow bolts, then going in and healing the main damage dealer. He was hit by a tail slap and was killed instantly. It was the last session in that adventure, though one of the survivors paid to have the character resurrected, so technically he is still alive.

All told I don't recommend it, and typically try for a higher-than-necessary Con on all my characters these days. However, I recently played a session where our party discovered that literally no one in the group could climb a rope due to no one having higher than a 7 in Strength. :smalltongue:

[Geigan]

Very rarely, and never without some means of obviating the need for a higher con through other investments. I've found it's easier to obviate that need in Pathfinder than it has been in 3.5 since my group switched, but it's still expected. Every character needs HP to avoid dying in my practical experience.

Just had a friend's character die recently because he was a ranged gish multiclass, and dumped too much to get higher stats in Int and Dex. Only had 10 Con and primarily Wizard HD. One black dragon drops in to surprise us dropping an acid bath that just ended him. Cleric couldn't even get a heal to him in time. It was a random encounter too. Took everyone including the GM completely by surprise when he went down.

One of my longest played characters only had a 10 con to start with, but even a ranged Warder still has a D12 HD and I also dropped Favored Class bonus into HP. Not to mention the class' defensive features.

My current Psion only has a 10 Con, but I also took psionic body to compensate hard with a heavy investment in psionic feats. Also share pain/vigor tends to keep me up even under some pretty nasty punishment. Still playing this one though, so still can't be sure that I'm not going to bite it at some point.

It's possible to get by without if you're lucky, if your GM doesn't tend to target you ever, or if you have acquired so many investments in defense that HP becomes meaningless. Personally though I'd sooner count on all my enemies throwing themselves on my mercy as soon as I arrive.

[Zaq]

Does this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19553609&postcount=256) count?

Being more serious, I don't think I've ever had CON as my lowest stat, for reasons that are obvious. Though I do recall with some amusement having a serious conversation waaaaay back when I first learned how to play (before I knew how to play well) involving the argument that Paladins were the PHB class with the least need for CON, since they have high HD, high Fort, and a bonus to Fort from Divine Grace. Because, you know, that's totally enough to get you where you're going when you're getting up close and personal with enemies as your primary strategy, right?

[GilesTheCleric]

It's interesting that folks are either entirely dumping con to go Necropolitan/ FMI, or else are "dumping" it by only raising it to 10 instead of the usual 14+. Does raising it to 10 rather than leaving it at 8 still count as a dump?

[Geigan]

Well I suppose as much as deciding whether it counts matters, it is a fair criticism as the OP did ask for negative mods specifically. Personally I think it just goes to show that building a character to last through a campaign as opposed to an NPC/short term PC just makes it a generally hard stat to ignore. I'd have to say it's probably quite rare to see someone with a negative mod in Con that doesn't bypass the penalties play it 1 to 20 without improving it at any point and actually survive. At least, not without the group operating under some assumptions to make that more playable. Not impossible mind you, merely unlikely.

[Zaq]

It's interesting that folks are either entirely dumping con to go Necropolitan/ FMI, or else are "dumping" it by only raising it to 10 instead of the usual 14+. Does raising it to 10 rather than leaving it at 8 still count as a dump?

10 is still pretty much a dump stat, since you can't really gain any active benefit out of it. If you have a 10 in a given stat, it's exceedingly unlikely that you're relying on that stat for whatever that stat is normally used for, if that makes any sense. In that sense, it's a dump stat. (Even a 12 might be considered a dump stat if your other stats are markedly higher for some reason; the definition is less about "this stat falls below a certain number" and more about "you're investing way, way less in this stat than in your other stats.")

[Celestia]

10 is still pretty much a dump stat, since you can't really gain any active benefit out of it. If you have a 10 in a given stat, it's exceedingly unlikely that you're relying on that stat for whatever that stat is normally used for, if that makes any sense. In that sense, it's a dump stat. (Even a 12 might be considered a dump stat if your other stats are markedly higher for some reason; the definition is less about "this stat falls below a certain number" and more about "you're investing way, way less in this stat than in your other stats.")
12 is a dump stat? What? Just because a stat is lower than the rest doesn't mean it's a dump. It must be negative to count as a dump stat, ideally 6 or less. There's a reason the term used is that of a garbage dump rather than a bland salad. 10 and 12 are salad stats, not dump stats. *nods*

[Ninjaxenomorph]

On constitution, I consider 12 to be dumping it.

[Luccan]

It's interesting that folks are either entirely dumping con to go Necropolitan/ FMI, or else are "dumping" it by only raising it to 10 instead of the usual 14+. Does raising it to 10 rather than leaving it at 8 still count as a dump?

It's not technically a negative stat, but it seems it's as close as people are willing to go who aren't planning on going necropolitan or something similar. I do find it interesting that no long running PCs seem to get away with it without large amounts of compensating.

[Thealtruistorc]

My first pathfinder character ever was a tengu inquisitor with 8 con. I learned never to do that again after the first attack which ever hit him resulted in his death (a crit from a polearm).

[Gildedragon]

In a predominantly social/intrigue/infiltration campaign I could see playing a (living) character with v low Con.
But since it sets your combat durability in a combat heavy game... well one can't ditch it too much

[VoxRationis]

I usually dump Con unless I'm actively pushing a character for a melee combat role. (I usually play rogues and wizards, sometimes bards, so that should give you an idea of how often I'm doing that.) Why? Because I want skills and a character who isn't an idiot, so I can't dump Int, I usually want to be able to interact with people, so I can't dump Charisma, Will saves and Spot are important so I can't dump Wisdom, and Dexterity is important for just about everyone, but in particular low-armor characters. That leaves Strength (which I dump when I can, say for wizards) and Constitution. I usually end up with one or two sub-10 rolls, so one or the other gets dumped.
Now, I'm not an idiot. I understand this leaves my characters fragile. But a) it's fun to play fragile characters, as I enjoy the challenge of playing a character who cannot get into melee; b) the groups I play in are large enough that I'm usually capable of being safely in the rear line; and c) the fun I get out of my characters' facility in other respects outweighs the downside of fragility.

[zlefin]

I never have; though i've been meaning ot try sometime. oddly, I think it might be better to do on a more martial type, which has a high enough hit die that your hp might still be passable; on the lower hit dice a negative mod means even at high levels you have almost nothing.
sociologically, I assume that people with poor con simply don't choose to become adventurers.

The person most likely to try it is someone in an rp or intrigue heavy campaign with minimal combat. or some other kind of unusual campaign.

it's hard to make a character for which con isn't at least the 3rd most useful stat.

[BearonVonMu]

I currently am playing a shapeshifter rogue who took their lowest stat in CON.
In addition to this, I am taking a favored class bonus that isn't 1HP/level.
The idea was that I'd never be in a straight fight, only lurking in hiding or ambushing foes.
So far it's not working out as well as I was hoping, seeing as every little bit of damage is adding up quite quickly.
As a player who normally considers CON my second most important stat, this is just reaffirming that necessity.
Once this character dies, I doubt I will do it again anytime soon.

[ShurikVch]

I wonder: does somebody attempted to stack multiple instances of the Bloodtouched Right from Player's Guide to Eberron to get several of Cha-bonus-to-hp, +CL to Necromancy spells, and +effective rebuking level (ceremony inflicts permanent -2 Con)?

[rel]

Yes.

I was playing the d20 version of Warcraft and had built a rogue character with the intention of going into the Infiltrator prestige class.

The DM had insisted we roll for stats, and I rolled quite poorly, with half my ability scores having a penalty.

As Infiltrator had a number of skill requirements I had no choice but to put a -9 into my Constitution.


Within the first 15 minutes of the first session, I contracted filth fever because of a rat that snuck into my tent and bit me when I attempted to chase it away (I was level 5 at the time). And I was consistently and repeatedly on the verge of death during most encounters on account of generally bad HP rolls. Nearly every Fortitude save I had to make was a complete disaster.

Needless to say, having such a low Constitution score is not a mistake I have repeated on any character ever since.

Rolled stats and half are negative. That's reroll time in my books.

Con is in general valuable but I actually see it dumped quite a lot. The Reasoning is, it is a passive stat. If you have high con you stand around not dying but not actually doing anything (specialised builds aside). If you have low con you presumably have high other stats that you can use to actually achieve things.

That aside, there are times when dumping con does not impact surviveability. A few notables not already mentioned that I've seen in game:
- druid or shapeshift ranger who is in bear form all day
- wedded to history survivor background using will saves in place of fort

[Lazymancer]

Without going undead I have only one type of character (Magic Jar user) that could handle Con as a dump stat reasonably well. Anyone else should have positive modifier. "Caster who stays out of melee" is not an acceptable type of character. Everyone gets hit sooner or later.

I'd say Con is dumped if it's below +0 for d10/d12, +1 for d8, or +2 for d6/d4.

P.s. Con is the most active stat. It allows living character to do everything.

[rel]

No it allows characters to remain living and thus do things. Aside from special builds it is not used to actually achieve stuff (hit things, make most skill checks, cast spells) while alive.

So if you are the kind of player that has no attachment to any one character and doesn't mind rerolling then con becomes significantly less usefull

[Dagroth]

My table has a house rule where if you roll lower than your Con modifier on hit points for a new level, you roll again (and if your Con Mod is equal or greater than your die type, you automatically get max hp)... so even Wizards tend to have a 14-16 Con.

[rel]

Being SAD wizards often have quite high con. 14 is my default con for a wizard because after maxing Int what else are you going to put your points into.

[Necroticplague]

Being SAD wizards often have quite high con. 14 is my default con for a wizard because after maxing Int what else are you going to put your points into.

Not even really maxing INT is strictly necessary. You need to have 19 by the time you get to 9-th level spells, and all boosting it more does is give more slots and higher DCs. Which, depending on what exactly you do and which spells you select, can both be almost entirely irrelevant. Thus, one could comfortably start with a 15, use the level-up stat boosts to get your 19, and put everything else in CON or DEX (for AC and the rare ray to-hit). Or start with even lower INT and use a Headband to make up the difference.

[Elkad]

My current Ardent has a 10 con. I'm sure that's the lowest I've played since I was making characters with 3d6 in order.
But I pour power into Vigor like a madman.

[weckar]

Currently kicking around at lv 16 win a CON of 4. Only time I ever notice is when disintegrates happen.

[Thurbane]

Currently kicking around at lv 16 win a CON of 4. Only time I ever notice is when disintegrates happen.

What class, and what are your HP looking like?

I assume you're a spellcaster, but there must be times when enemy AOE manage to damage you?

[weckar]

Artificer, capping at about 40 HP. I have items to buff saves and negate most AoE (evasion etc)

[zlefin]

an elan could probably pull it off, using power points to nullify the damage instead.
the psionic power vigor could also help quite a lot, though it's not feasible to keep it up all the time until quite a lot later.

[rel]

Not even really maxing INT is strictly necessary. You need to have 19 by the time you get to 9-th level spells, and all boosting it more does is give more slots and higher DCs. Which, depending on what exactly you do and which spells you select, can both be almost entirely irrelevant. Thus, one could comfortably start with a 15, use the level-up stat boosts to get your 19, and put everything else in CON or DEX (for AC and the rare ray to-hit). Or start with even lower INT and use a Headband to make up the difference.

Spellcasting is a straight wizards only good class feature. Boosting the one stat governs your spellcasting as high as possible is a very good idea.

[Lazymancer]

Being good idea and being mandatory are different things.

IRL casters can function with pretty low numbers in their casting stats. As a Wizard you can even get away with having Int 12 at 1st level - it will last until level 4, when you get +1 to it; by level 6 you get Headband of +2 Int - and so on.

[weckar]

IRL casters

Sorry, what?

[Luccan]

Sorry, what?

He means in actual games. While that certainly won't be true for every game, the majority of games do not assume or require the level of optimization the boards do. Therefore, it would be unnecessary to have a fully boosted INT score.

[rel]

To offer an equally meaningless anecdotal counter point, in games I have played the only time a caster starts with less than 16 in main stat is when they are planning to gish. Even then I have never seen less than 14 in a casting stat even after racial penalties.

But I feel like we are getting off topic here.

I have remembered another time when someone dumped con; The player was planning to beome undead at some unspecified point during the game and in preperation had gotten con as low as possible to boost stats that would actually matter after the change. A variant on dumping con and starting play as already undead.

[Otodetu]

I have terrible experiences with using con as a dump stat.


A 3.5 cleric with 8 con, and a pathfinder magus with 10 con.

The cleric was a slow and armoured backline support, it was mostly out of combat **** and ambushes that brought her down. (down in the negatives all the time.)

The magus kensai/aegis was focused on high ac and did great until critically hit for exactly enough damage to bring him to -10, had i been blessed with a higher con score i would have been fine.

Other characters of note was a wizard with 16 con, and a sorcerer with 18 con, both where fantastically tanky fellows when protected with spells in the backline, many times i survived poison, disease and other hazards just because of that 1 or 2 points of fortitude save, or having 10 hp left and still be standing.


I cannot advocate dumping con unless you want a very different experience, as both con dumpers where memorable characters.

[Thurbane]

Artificer, capping at about 40 HP. I have items to buff saves and negate most AoE (evasion etc)

Interesting.

In high level play, I'm surprised no enemies have managed to nail you for this much damage. Even with Evasion and other defenses, has this character been knocked unconscious or slain before? What other defenses does the character have? Miss chance, SR, DR etc.

I'm quite interested in the concept.

[RoboEmperor]

Depends on how much cheese you use.

Abrupt Jaunt lets you dodge everything except directly targeted spells or massive AoE spells.

Correct positioning + a healer to heal you when you are negative hp can get you through the early game.

Minor Shapeshift gives you at-will renewable temporary hp.

Celerity ensures you can virtually escape anything.

Contingency covers what Celerity can't

Wealth breaking tricks or wish loops grants you all the gear you need to boost your CON sky high (+5 book, +6 gear)

[NomGarret]

I've had success with gunslingers. Archers would work under the same principle. D10 hit die and good fort save from class is enough to give at least middling stats. Being Dex-based and with a tendency to stay out of the fray avoids a lot of trouble as well.

[Mendicant]

I see 8-10 Cons somewhat frequently, but I give max HD twice at first level. Between that and FCBs lower Con scores just aren't nearly as punitive.

[Yogibear41]

To the best of my knowledge/memory I have only ever played a character with a starting con of less than 16 twice. One was a Paladin of Tyranny who had a starting con of 12 who later became a lich, the second was a cleric who had a starting con of 14 because I was going for abyssal heritor feats and needed a decent score in all my other abilities to meet prerequisites.

To be fair though I almost always play melee in your face types.

[Stryyke]

LOL. I'm sure I will be lambasted for this, but I usually dump Con. My current character is a ranged scout with an 8 Con. *shrug*

[rel]

As long as you don't mind rerolling a little more often it is fine. You burn half as long but twice as bright as it were.

[weckar]

Interesting.

In high level play, I'm surprised no enemies have managed to nail you for this much damage. Even with Evasion and other defenses, has this character been knocked unconscious or slain before? What other defenses does the character have? Miss chance, SR, DR etc.

I'm quite interested in the concept.

Missed this post earlier.

Quite a normal SR of 21, 20% Miss chance, elevated saves, Custom items that provide Always-on Death ward & Greater Invisibility.

Only real obstacle thus far has really been a Lucky disintegrate, but that's why I have a buddy that is Always in reach with a little trinket to tap me back to 0HP as long as it is within 1 round of death.

Being able to dish it before they can helps, too.