Paladin 2/ sorcerer or bard X?

[Klorox]

Can somebody who's played these two multi classes please highlight the pros vs cons of the two builds?

TIA.

[TheUser]

Can somebody who's played these two multi classes please highlight the pros vs cons of the two builds?

TIA.

This question is hugely open ended and pretty much compels a great deal of analysis.

Are you going to run a valor bard for second attack or a lore bard for cutting words?

What metamagics would you take as a sorcerer?

I've played Human Variant Paladin 6/Sorcerer X (Resilient: Con @ level 1)

Getting second attack and aura of protection is -really- important imho. They are the bread and butter of the paladin class, and make the character really robust.

Quickened Spell + Two Smite attacks is amazing and comes highly recommended.
The sorcerer doesn't have to choose between attacking or casting; if you are willing to spend resources you can do both. Your second metamagic choice might prove a difficult decision because while twinned spell represents a great buffing tool, it cannot be combined with quicken (so you choose between double buffing -or- attacking), and subtle spell lets you get away with insane social shenanigans (you probably won't be stealthing much in full plate >.>), while empower can be used in conjunction with quicken and makes all your damage spells worth it (if you're team needs AoE).


The bard has more skill expertise and some neat short rest abilities for healing/buffing allies and the lore bard feature for getting any spell presents it's own set of options and fun utility. If your group needs a skill monkey or a party face (expertise in persuasion/deception zomgoose) then pick the bard.

[agnos]

Unless the DM allows UA, generally Paladin 2 / Bard X fits together better due to Extra attack from Valor Bard. Sorceror gives a much better spell list earlier on and gives you Quicken which lets you maximize your actions. As a true Gish, Paladin/Sorceror fits a little better due to the spell list being more effective. Paladin Bard acts a bit more effective as a supportive Gish or 3.x cleric where you shift between roles dependent on the situation. They fit different situations and different party holes.

[JAL_1138]

Unless the DM allows UA, generally Paladin 2 / Bard X fits together better due to Extra attack from Valor Bard. Sorceror gives a much better spell list earlier on and gives you Quicken which lets you maximize your actions. As a true Gish, Paladin/Sorceror fits a little better due to the spell list being more effective. Paladin Bard acts a bit more effective as a supportive Gish or 3.x cleric where you shift between roles dependent on the situation. They fit different situations and different party holes.

Twinned Booming Blade doesn't require UA, and while it costs Sorcery Points, does considerably more damage than Extra Attack from Valor Bard. At first the Sorcery Point cost limits your melee effectiveness, but eventually you get enough (and ways to regain them) not to run out too often.

Essentially, Sorcadin is a genuine gish with great buffing and AoE damage. Twin Spell makes Sorcerers the best buffers in the game. Twin Greater Invisibility onto yourself and the Rogue, for instance, or twin Polymorph to turn two party members into T-Rexes, or twin Haste onto yourself and the Fighter, etc., etc. You've got spells like Fireball when you need to drop AoE damage and clear out mooks. The limited spell list means you don't really have room to take utility spells, though. In combat, it's an absolute monster of a mage-knight.

Palabard (as in Paladin 2, Valor Bard 18) is essentially a Str-build Valor Bard with better AC and much better melee/nova damage than vanilla Valor Bard. It's quite good, but it's a different thing. You can definitely gish it up well enough when you need to, and may end up doing so quite often since you're good at it, but it's ultimately a bard first.* It's better out of combat for skills and utility spells, and is a considerably better healer than Sorcadin. I'd say it's much more versatile, but as the price of that, it's not quite as potent of a frontline-gish or buffer. It's still good at those, but not as good. You get Expertise and Jack of All Trades, can afford to take utility spells, get ritual casting, and can heal almost as well as a non-Life-Domain Cleric, like any bard.

*(While it's a bard first in terms of tactics, it's a Paladin first in terms of build order, since you need to start Paladin to get heavy armor.)

EDIT: Paladin 6/Lore Bard 14 is a frontline Paladin trading higher-level Paladin abilities for Lore Bard skillmonkeying, spellcasting, and Cutting Words. It's capable of nabbing most of the better Paladin spells, plus Counterspell, through Magical Secrets, but won't get 9th-level spells known. It will get higher slots to upcast with. Sort of a 3/4ths caster? It's a great combo if you want some good Bard features on a true frontliner. Paladin 6/Sorcerer 14 is also a behemoth of a frontliner, with much more of an edge in combat than the Pal6/Lore14, but less versatile outside it. Downside to both is they take longer to kick in as spellcasters than the 2-level dip and don't learn higher-level spells.

[Corran]

Can somebody who's played these two multi classes please highlight the pros vs cons of the two builds?

TIA.
Haven't played the one with bard, but I would say it's the better one.

If you are dipping 2 leves in paladin, you are doing it for the smites mostly. So since you are sacrificing 2 levels in your primary class just to be able to smite, ie just so that you can go nova when against BBEGs, then you better at least have an extra attack. I mean, you wont be a tank, or a dps, you will be a fullcaster who is constantly 2 levels behind, with the ability to smite. Eeeh, make sure that you make the best out of smite (extra attack), since you paid that much for it.

If we are talking for a 6 level dip, my money is on the sorcadin though. Far far better imo (though I haven't played a palabard).

[Finger6842]

There are a lot of variables here that affect the answer.

What kind of campaign will it be? If it's combat heavy either will work well with the Sorc getting the damage nod. If it's out of combat encounter heavy then Lore Bard is the clear winner, Jack of all Trades and massive skill proficiencies make them far more versatile. If it's a Political campaign then either class is good due to high Charisma.

What's the party makeup? No true tank then go straight Paladin. No heals then go Paly/Bard. No true spell caster then go either way based on the spell list you prefer. No rogue then don't MC paladin as sneaky Bards don't use heavy armor OR take the invisibility spell as a Paly/Sorc.

How many levels will you achieve? If you are going all the way to 20 you will build differently than if it's a level 1 to 5 campaign with a hard stop. By multi-classing your Paladin you essentially take them from Tank with some DPS to DPS with some Tank (Sorc) OR to Tank with tons of Utility (Bard). Both classes essentially add sustained range damage that the Paladin lacks. You also lose access to your level 20 ability and in my opinion Paladins get some of the best level 20 abilities. You can't count on ever attaining level 20 though so again...play whatever sounds most interesting to you.

Synergy between the classes is difficult.
Paladins care about Strength and a Sorcerer definitely does not. A Sorcerer is unlikely to have high survivability in the front lines long term as they are damage dealers even with the armor. Bards are typically dexterity based and lose access to much of the sneaky rogue-like abilities when wearing heavy armor. You can have a strength based Bard and play it as a scald, taking heavy weapons master and with Magical Secrets down the line you will get Haste which will add to the fracas. Bards don't suffer the front line combat damage very well either, even in plate armor. From a RP standpoint Paladin/Bard will be much easier to "justify" than Paladin/Sorcerer since the 2 masters thing will likely be a topic of conversation.

My highest DPS character with survivability so far has been a 19 Lore Bard/1 Wizard if that helps. That means a 2 Paladin/18 Lore Bard would have potentially better DPS. Obviously I didn't spend much time in melee though and the middle levels (7 to 9) were poor. Alternately a 2 Paladin/18 Sorc will have much better DPS but very little effectiveness outside of combat (comparatively). If you will be a party of murder hobos then definitely go Paly/Sorc. **As a side note, my Bard DPS and survivability relied heavily on a swarm of zombies so to repeat that you would need essentially an evil paladin.**

[PeteNutButter]

It basically depends on your encounters per day.

In for instance AL games with rather limited encounters, the sorcerer version will consistently outperform the bard version in almost every way, except skills. The sorcerer gets haste a level before the bard gets extra attack. The sorcerer can twin BB and haste attack and quicken BB/GFB.

The real money for the sorcerer is the raw power granted to the action economy. He has the best spell in the game (for its level): SHIELD so he has consistent reaction uses, and can cast any spell on his list for two points as a bonus action while also swinging with his action and potential haste action. If you want to Fireball, run up and twin BB, then make a haste attack, potentially smiting on all of them... you want to be a paladorc.

If you expect long days the extra attack from valor bard will outpace the sorcerer's point and spell pool, but the ironic thing is the paladin 2/valor bard x still wants at least 1 level in sorcerer at some point as shield is just too damn strong.

[JAL_1138]

It basically depends on your encounters per day.

In for instance AL games with rather limited encounters, the sorcerer version will consistently outperform the bard version in almost every way, except skills. The sorcerer gets haste a level before the bard gets extra attack. The sorcerer can twin BB and haste attack and quicken BB/GFB.

The real money for the sorcerer is the raw power granted to the action economy. He has the best spell in the game (for its level): SHIELD so he has consistent reaction uses, and can cast any spell on his list for two points as a bonus action while also swinging with his action and potential haste action. If you want to Fireball, run up and twin BB, then make a haste attack, potentially smiting on all of them... you want to be a paladorc.

If you expect long days the extra attack from valor bard will outpace the sorcerer's point and spell pool, but the ironic thing is the paladin 2/valor bard x still wants at least 1 level in sorcerer at some point as shield is just too damn strong.

Taking a level of Sorcerer prevents gaining 18th-level Magical Secrets. I'd spend a 10th-level Secret on Shield before giving up the ability to learn Wish, for instance.

[PeteNutButter]

Taking a level of Sorcerer prevents gaining 18th-level Magical Secrets. I'd spend a 10th-level Secret on Shield before giving up the ability to learn Wish, for instance.

Certainly If you can confidently expect to reach level 20 that's better. In the short term it's better to have two level 5 spells at level 13 along with shield.

[agnos]

Twinned Booming Blade doesn't require UA, and while it costs Sorcery Points, does considerably more damage than Extra Attack from Valor Bard. At first the Sorcery Point cost limits your melee effectiveness, but eventually you get enough (and ways to regain them) not to run out too often.
While it is true that Sorc gives you a type of Extra Attack (either through Twin or Quicken), it's limited both by Sorc points (which are valuable) and by having 2 targets (in the case of twin). So Twin means you can't focus damage.

FWIW, Paladin 2/Bladesinger is quite good and worth considering albeit a bit tough on the stats (especially for point buy). Of the three, Wizard has the best spell list but worst HP; it plays a bit more as a skirmisher who starts up by casting then turns into fighting. Sorc is a build that wants a bit more wants to play in melee but lacks many tools in order for that to be extra strong. That said, the Paladin 6 builds are best to transfer into Sorc because of how well the two can meld if you can get Extra Attack (since Quicken gives you a third attack and Divine Grace makes Haste a much safer spell).

That said, it's all about what you want to play. Each has its own benefits and detriments based on the Caster class you marry to Paladin. Sorc gives you the most burst power overall and is the strongest for sheer DPS. That said, I think bard is the best as it gives the strongest control and support options. Blade singer gives you an options for leveling from 4-8 while also being the most fragile. Warlock gives you lots of strong mid-late options, but you're limited by how often you gain short rests.

[Citan]

Can somebody who's played these two multi classes please highlight the pros vs cons of the two builds?

TIA.
Hi!
I'd say the quick rundown by JAL is pretty reliable.

My own thoughts on that:
Valor Bard is probably a tad easier to play, because you "just" have to select spells, and it's obviously many times better than a Sorcerer when healing is concerned. Plus you can handpick half-a-dozen of the best spells available overall.

On the other hand, if you are the kind of guy who likes to be smart about spells and appreciates tricky ideas, you may prefer Sorcerer: lesser spell choices, but there are many many mean/great things to do with Metamagics and spells, even Paladin ones. ;)

I'd say, if you don't have any clear preference...
1) Try to pick a few 3rd levels, 6th level and 9th levels and see if those choice clearly gear towards one class (like, you really want some spells that are exclusive to one class or pickeable only through Magic Secrets).
2) Try to imagine fun things you would do if you had Metamagic.
3) If both those reflexions didn't help, then make your party the determining factor: lack of support and healing? Bard. Lack of AOE? Sorcerer. Lack of utility/rituals? Bard. Want to focus on buffing 1 or 2 people? Sorcerer.