afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII

[afroakuma]

By request, after a long hiatus, we begin the seventh thread in the series. Having noted a tendency for questions to get beyond Planescape very quickly, I've accepted the inevitable and put it up in the title. The (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?265884-afroakuma-s-Planar-Questions-Thread!-(You-ask-I-ll-answer)) last (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?272393-afroakuma-s-Planar-Questions-Thread-II!) six (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?299450-afroakuma-s-Planar-Questions-Thread-III!) threads (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?317316-afroakuma-s-Planar-Questions-Thread-IV) have (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?372289-afroakuma-s-Planar-And-Other-Oddities-Questions-Thread-5!) covered (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?418709-afroakuma-s-Planar-And-Other-Oddities-Questions-Thread-VI) a lot of ground, and I hope this one continues the long tradition of fun discussion, investigating the most minute odds and ends of the D&D mythos, and a minimum of decapitation threats.

If this is your first visit to my threads, be prepared for loads and loads of terminology, new ideas and more than a little narcissistic grandstanding as I attempt to clear the hurdles of twenty-odd years of fluff buildup. There are a lot of regulars, but we like new faces. A cursory attempt to search the past threads before asking your question would be appreciated, since 1) we've got the Search Thread function back and 2) I get a lot of repeat questions. If it happens again, it happens, but if it can be avoided then so much the better.

Once again, the fundamentals:

Basic Rules

• We'll be going with canonical information wherever possible, wherein this refers to all sources from 3.5 and prior. 4E and beyond are irrelevant to me where this thread is concerned.

• I'll conjecture on demand and supply tidbits from my own extensive work on the Planes where relevant, but these will always be pointed out.

• 99% of the time, I'm not interested in breaking down sources. That requires a lot of digging about more often than not, and it's a very big library that I'm drawing from. If you really feel the need to contest something, try to be nice about it; I don't like having to plunge into the boxes to find the right book or magazine unless I'm not sure of something. This is especially relevant since I've just moved a second time and had to repack all of the material; research now involves me jumping into the storage... corridor thing... to knock boxes around.

• I assume all or nearly all published settings to be connected in the same multiverse; this means both Spelljammer and Planescape, as well as worlds that try to remain separate such as Athas and Eberron, are all part of the same ball of wax as far as I'm concerned. Mystara is also considered included, and its cosmological uniqueness is interpreted through the lens of the Great Wheel.

• There are very few sources that don't bring something to the table, but sometimes what's written has been done with rather more expedient and financial goals in mind than staying true to canon or respecting the work of past authors. In particular, the Races series from 3.5 notoriously threw out the old racial pantheons and started over with a lot of similar deities. Where this sort of laziness has been evident, older sources are considered to prevail within the context of this thread.

• This thread has nothing to do with Pathfinder and I'm not particularly capable of (or interested in) answering questions involving Golarion. All questions will be addressed as D&D questions using the 3.5 edition rules to the extent possible.

Core Concepts

• The planes as will be most commonly acknowledged in this thread include: the Material Plane; the Ethereal, Astral and Shadow Planes; the Positive and Negative Energy Planes; the Elemental Planes of Air, Earth, Fire and Water; the Para-Elemental Planes of Ice, Magma, Ooze and Smoke; the Quasi-Elemental Planes of Ash, Dust, Lightning, Minerals, Radiance, Salt, Steam and Vacuum; the seventeen major Outer Planes; and the Far Realm. Other planes that may be mentioned with some degree of frequency but lie within the realm of speculation are the Ordial Plane, the Planes of Cordance, the Semi-Elemental Planes, the Near Realm, the Vast Medium and any of those not already named that are located in the 3.X Manual of the Planes, as well as demiplanes.

• The term exemplar or exemplar race may be used a great deal in this thread. These terms refer to the major entities of pure alignment that reside on the Outer Planes: archons, guardinals, eladrins, slaad, tanar'ri, yugoloths, baatezu, modrons and rilmani.

• I've been finding it convenient to concoct terminology for the major PC races and their most common foes. The term "proud races" refers to the most commonly encountered modern civilized races of the Prime Material Plane: humans, dwarves, elves, gnomes and halflings. The terms "vilekith" and "vile races" refer to the most commonly encountered modern barbarous races of the Prime Material Plane: gnolls, goblinoids, kobolds, orcs and ogres.

• When discussing worlds of the Material Plane, I often turn to referencing their spatial location on a star chart made for Spelljammer. As there is no official chart to consult, I work off of an extensively detailed and thoroughly researched fanmade chart by Nerik (http://nerik.orpheusweb.co.uk/files/Spelljammer/Flow_map_01-12-12.pdf) (warning: huge). This chart represents the Arcane Inner Flow quadrant of the primary "galaxy" of Spelljammer. This "galaxy" is known as arcane space after the beings that ruthlessly control its spelljamming helm supply and the secret of the lanes that connect the heart of the region to its border, known as the Arcane Outer Flow or AOF. If I note something as being on or near to the AOF, it represents a significant distance from the center of arcane space and from the most well-known worlds in this quadrant (Oerth, Krynn and Toril).

• Zargon is not an ancient baatorian, and I'm not engaging on the topic yet again in this thread. It's been done to death already, search it up.

• How have I done six of these already seriously what the blazes.

Happy questioning!

[Yklikt]

So... If zargon is not baatorian, what is he?

[afroakuma]

Some other kind of monster. I'm not engaging on that topic again. Ever.

[Khedrac]

Welcome back Afroakuma, your threads are always great reading.

A "play" question rather than a "lore" question - do you have any suggestions for how to run the Dabus for non-scripted encounters in a game? (I am running Expedition to the Demonweb Pits and the party just had an encounter where some dabus were trying to talk to them - the PCs were a bit busy and just ignored them so it came off OK in play, but I wondered how to handle more normal encounters.)

Actually that makes me think of a "lore" question - how do the dabus interact with naturally blind creatures (such as grimlocks) - are their illusions purely optical or do they operate on whatever the 'viewing' creature's primary sense is?

[Gildedragon]

Dunno if this has been asked before but:
Considering that most Material Planes have similar life forms: (elves, humans, orcs, etc...)
Who designed/created the races/life-forms? It clearly can't be gods like Cor-Lath or Gruumsh or Morradin as they're not universally worshipped and other gods in other spheres take credit for those races' creation... or do these racial gods just take on a dozen different names as they move between worlds?

[Yklikt]

Some other kind of monster. I'm not engaging on that topic again. Ever.

Oh then can you show me where you did first time

[BWR]

So... If zargon is not baatorian, what is he?

Short answer, since Baator doesn't exist in the Mystaran cosmology, and The Lost City (the module where Zargon appeared) is semi-officially set somewhere in Mystara, he isn't a Baatorian of any stripe, new or old. He's something else.

[hamishspence]

Arguably Elder Evils created "Zargon II" who lives in a different Lost City, found on the world of Oerth.

[afroakuma]

Welcome back Afroakuma, your threads are always great reading.

Why thank you.


A "play" question rather than a "lore" question - do you have any suggestions for how to run the Dabus for non-scripted encounters in a game? (I am running Expedition to the Demonweb Pits and the party just had an encounter where some dabus were trying to talk to them - the PCs were a bit busy and just ignored them so it came off OK in play, but I wondered how to handle more normal encounters.)

Easiest way is to have someone on hand who can translate so you don't need to concoct rebuses. Intelligence check to puzzle out what they're on about is also reasonable.


Actually that makes me think of a "lore" question - how do the dabus interact with naturally blind creatures (such as grimlocks) - are their illusions purely optical or do they operate on whatever the 'viewing' creature's primary sense is?

As far as we're aware, both dabus and phirblas communicate with visual manifestations exclusively. I would imagine that if a dabus is on Her Serenity's business, it will have conscripted an "interpreter."


Dunno if this has been asked before but:
Considering that most Material Planes have similar life forms: (elves, humans, orcs, etc...)
Who designed/created the races/life-forms?

I posited in my longform exploration of the emergence of Prime Material life that the general "humanoid" design emerged from the Astral beings called thendar and was popularized from there. The first races did not include humans, elves, dwarves etc. and their gods did not originate the design across the whole of the Prime. As to the gods of the first races, given the fates those peoples suffered it's more likely than not that those gods died long before their names could be recorded in any appreciable way.


Oh then can you show me where you did first time

Here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18801906&postcount=1111)

[Tzardok]

Oh happy day! :smallbiggrin:
Now where did I leave my list of gathered questions? :smalltongue:
Ah, here it is:

1. Which fiends that exist in 3.5 were psionic in earlier editions or would lend themselves to be made psionic?

2. The article on mooncalves in Dragon #340 claims them to be creations of eldritch outer space beings named moon gods. How would mooncalves and moon gods fit into the Spelljamer world?

3. In your Great Big List of Deities (GBLD) you also list Angra Mainyu. Is there anything else on him besides the article on alternative death gods in Dragon # 288?

4. In your creation myth you mention Rhiannon as the oldest deity besides Io. I found nothing on her besides an ages old Dragon article. What can you tell me about her?

5. Again on the topic of gods: What kind of connection do the Roman gods have to the Olympian pantheon? In the (GBLD) they aren't mentioned, in "On Hallowed Ground" they are. Are they just different names? Different aspects of the same deities? Allies? Annoyed with each other because they are always equated?

6. Who is Merodach?

I've got more, but i don't want to overload you so early in the thread.

And thank you again for coming back.

We missed you. :smallsmile:

[Gildedragon]

I'll have to look up your origin of life in the planes blurb
Dragon 353: Demiplane of Imprisionment, what's trapped in that crystal?
It looks a lot like Pandorym's crystal jail... do the Powers just like using violet gemstones as jailcells?

[afroakuma]

1. Which fiends that exist in 3.5 were psionic in earlier editions or would lend themselves to be made psionic?

Most fiends were psionic in some earlier edition. :smalltongue: "Would lend themselves" is a bit nonspecific, would you care to narrow that?


2. The article on mooncalves in Dragon #340 claims them to be creations of eldritch outer space beings named moon gods. How would mooncalves and moon gods fit into the Spelljamer world?

They'd exist as wildspace entities.


3. In your Great Big List of Deities (GBLD) you also list Angra Mainyu. Is there anything else on him besides the article on alternative death gods in Dragon # 288?

Angra Mainyu was never detailed substantially beyond the original article on the Persian mythos in Dragon #12.


4. In your creation myth you mention Rhiannon as the oldest deity besides Io. I found nothing on her besides an ages old Dragon article. What can you tell me about her?

I can tell you to read that ages-old Dragon article. That's the totality.


5. Again on the topic of gods

Why do I feel that you're out to make me regret the god list.


What kind of connection do the Roman gods

The Olympian pantheon, you mean?


In the (GBLD) they aren't mentioned, in "On Hallowed Ground" they are.

Would you care to point out where that might be? A cursory scan hasn't shown me any Roman deities in the index.


Are they just different names? Different aspects of the same deities? Allies? Annoyed with each other because they are always equated?

Off the cuff, I don't believe D&D has spoken to this at all; each edition has been very consistent with maintaining the Olympian pantheon and excluding the Romans. It would not be unreasonable to suggest that there may have been some degree of syncretism/annexation of worship taking place that saw the Olympians employ Latinate aliases to corner the market on belief and squeeze out the myriad spirits of Roman tradition. Again, though, this is all off the cuff.


6. Who is Merodach?

Merodach is a Duke of Hell in the service of Dispater. He commands 21 companies of hamatulas. His appearance is that of a horned, winged wolf with a serpentine tail.


I'll have to look up your origin of life in the planes blurb

A search for "Ilkahvval" should pull up the posts, if I remember correctly.


Dragon 353: Demiplane of Imprisionment, what's trapped in that crystal?

Tharizdun.


It looks a lot like Pandorym's crystal jail... do the Powers just like using violet gemstones as jailcells?

Not particularly.

[Melcar]

Dunno if this has been asked before but:
Considering that most Material Planes have similar life forms: (elves, humans, orcs, etc...)
Who designed/created the races/life-forms? It clearly can't be gods like Cor-Lath or Gruumsh or Morradin as they're not universally worshipped and other gods in other spheres take credit for those races' creation... or do these racial gods just take on a dozen different names as they move between worlds?

Most races have either been slaves or have at some point gained access to plane travel abilities! So they might have been created by the host you mention and migrated from there!

Edit: Hope it's alright I took a shot at answering that, to the best of my abilities!

[enderlord99]

Are you angry about Red Fel copying your "powerful Evil outsider who knows lots of stuff" shtick?

Of course you are, you're angry about everything, I'm not sure why I thought that would be a good question. Let's ask this instead:

HOW angry are you? ...Specifically at him and specifically for that, I mean.

[Melcar]

Hi Afroakuma, glad to have you back!

In Dragon #359, there are different explanations on "the Serpent" and the other Ancient Brethren. What is your take on them? What sort of beings are they? Are they the upper most tier? Like to know your thoughts!

Thanks!

[Red Fel]

Are you angry about Red Fel copying your "powerful Evil outsider who knows lots of stuff" shtick?

It's not copying, it's an homage.

The difference is a matter of respect for the source material.

[afroakuma]

Hi Afroakuma, glad to have you back!

In Dragon #359, there are different explanations on "the Serpent" and the other Ancient Brethren. What is your take on them? What sort of beings are they? Are they the upper most tier? Like to know your thoughts!

The "Ancient Brethren" are the product of a misreading between Vecna Reborn and Die, Vecna, Die! on the part of the authors of the latter. The term was not originally intended to refer to the Serpent at all, but rather to Vecna's ancestors, a people also known as the Ur-Flan.

My take is that the Serpent, given Vecna's history and its own characteristics, is most likely a vestige, a truly rare one at that, and that the Whispered One was in his early youth a binder. If pact magic was the secret practice passed down by Mazzel, it might explain her condemnation and execution for "witchcraft" - she was unable to prevent herself from displaying the sign of a patron.

[Eldan]

[QUOTE=Tzardok;22108322]
5. Again on the topic of gods: What kind of connection do the Roman gods have to the Olympian pantheon? In the (GBLD) they aren't mentioned, in "On Hallowed Ground" they are. Are they just different names? Different aspects of the same deities? Allies? Annoyed with each other because they are always equated?/QUOTE]

You may want to look for real world mythology for ideas on that. The Roman and Greek gods have different origins, but were increasingly merged until they were basically the same. Something similar could happen on the planes: it is sometimes mentioned that some gods take on different aspects for different worlds, or take on the guise of dead gods to gain worshippers. Perhaps the Roman gods usurped the roles of the Greek gods, or vice versa?

[Eldan]

The "Ancient Brethren" are the product of a misreading between Vecna Reborn and Die, Vecna, Die! on the part of the authors of the latter. The term was not originally intended to refer to the Serpent at all, but rather to Vecna's ancestors, a people also known as the Ur-Flan.


The Ur-Flan would later become famous for their creation of the terrible ooze monster known as the Blancmange who plagued certain crystal spheres with their terrifying powers of turning normal people into Scots and beating them at Tennis.

(Sorry, I just can't take anything named "Flan" seriously.)

[Tzardok]

Most fiends were psionic in some earlier edition. :smalltongue: "Would lend themselves" is a bit nonspecific, would you care to narrow that?


I just thought of the dearth of psionic fiends and wanted to know which ones where especially fitting to add some psi-like abilities to. You know, a psionic lemure sounds really stupid, but a psionic version of the marilith would maybe fit better. Something like that.


They'd exist as wild space entities.

Would the moon gods then be deities that just live on the Prime or are they just something different?



I can tell you to read that ages-old Dragon article. That's the totality.

What happened to her in Afrocanon? What is her relation to the modern fey deities like the Queen of Air and Darkness? Did you choose her on a whim or did she fulfill some kind of unique need?



Why do I feel that you're out to make me regret the god list.

Oh, no, I am still thankfull for the List.



Would you care to point out where that might be? A cursory scan hasn't shown me any Roman deities in the index.

Mistake on my part. I know I read it somewhere in an official book, but I can't find it anymore. Still, the answers where helpful.
EDIT: I found an article in Dragon #133 where the Roman and the Olympian pantheon are treated as seperate. I don't think that it was what I read once, but at least I found something.

7. Is there anything on the Plane of Mirrors besides the stuff in Manual of the Planes? That version of the plane is essentially a bunch of unconnected empty demiplanes, which doesn't mesh with the existence of the nerra or the kamarel. I thought that there may be some kind of Deep Mirror, like with the Deep Ether, but I have no idea how one would go there. I would like to know your take on the matter.

[Melcar]

The "Ancient Brethren" are the product of a misreading between Vecna Reborn and Die, Vecna, Die! on the part of the authors of the latter. The term was not originally intended to refer to the Serpent at all, but rather to Vecna's ancestors, a people also known as the Ur-Flan.

My take is that the Serpent, given Vecna's history and its own characteristics, is most likely a vestige, a truly rare one at that, and that the Whispered One was in his early youth a binder. If pact magic was the secret practice passed down by Mazzel, it might explain her condemnation and execution for "witchcraft" - she was unable to prevent herself from displaying the sign of a patron.

Thanks for your reply...

Ok so in the ancient brethren originally referred to Vecnas ancestors, and the serpent, is in your mind not Vok'slak, the World Serpent? So all the mentioning of the Lady speaking in the serpents tongue, and being a confidant/ peer of the serpent is then likely a misunderstanding between authors? Or do you believe it to mean that the Lady is less a being in a lesser tier that then serpent? And that the serpent is some form of over-over-deity of magic and thus the personification of it...

What I'm trying to find out here, is what it all means canon-wise. I get how that might be impossible, but that my goal. I sort of feel that your take on it, differs somewhat from the official sources? Or is your take on it, the way you believe it is meant to be understood?

[afroakuma]

I just thought of the dearth of psionic fiends and wanted to know which ones where especially fitting to add some psi-like abilities to.

Whichever ones you'd like, I'd imagine. No reason lemures couldn't exude an unfocused psionic field that presents as a low-level psychic "moan." Greater devils and Type II and higher demons, among others, all had psionic capability in 1st edition. 2nd edition stripped it out as psionics became an optional side system.


Would the moon gods then be deities that just live on the Prime or are they just something different?

Presumably they are a collection of Prime-based wildspace entities with the combined power of a demigod.


What happened to her in Afrocanon?

I never settled on a fixed fate, but some sort of handwaved fading away as the fey branched off to follow more focused patrons.


What is her relation to the modern fey deities like the Queen of Air and Darkness?

Most likely maternal or grandmaternal. No, I don't have any notion of who might form an intermediate generation, don't ask.


Mistake on my part. I know I read it somewhere in an official book, but I can't find it anymore. Still, the answers where helpful.
EDIT: I found an article in Dragon #133 where the Roman and the Olympian pantheon are treated as seperate. I don't think that it was what I read once, but at least I found something.

Doesn't look like they're treated as separate; rather it appears that the article covers some gods of Roman worship who were not direct analogues to a Greek divinity (or who were, but were sufficiently differentiated). The article also makes it fairly clear why there are no Roman gods: Roman priests aren't particularly faithful. Incidentally, it's a bit spotty in places... Eris is not a Roman divinity, she's quite Greek. Likewise Serapis. Both are already on the big list of gods. I'm not tremendously inclined to add the Divis Imperator, Saturn (listed as a titan), or Vesta, who is essentially Hestia. It looks like the only reason she wasn't listed as a cognate is that Hestia wasn't present in Legends and Lore, so with the 3rd edition update I'm inclined to treat them as one and the same.


7. Is there anything on the Plane of Mirrors besides the stuff in Manual of the Planes?

Nothing you're not already familiar with.


Ok so in the ancient brethren originally referred to Vecnas ancestors, and the serpent, is in your mind not Vok'slak, the World Serpent?

Well, I mean, that might be its name... but in terms of the status ascribed to it? No. Vecna never does anything particularly exceptional or world-changing of his own power or with some vastly potent magic channeled from the "source of all sorcery," he just learns of various loopholes he can piggyback on and does so. It's a consistent part of his character - he hunts secrets so that he can access backdoors and exploits, he became a lich to loophole around death itself, he planned to be reborn inside the borders of Tovag to loophole the border rules of Ravenloft, and he piggybacked off of Iuz's divinity to catapult himself into Sigil. Once there, his whole plan hinged on being already inside Sigil at the time his godhead "caught up" with him, and even then the scheme was essentially flawed from the outset - he took a gamble and was wrong the whole time.


So all the mentioning of the Lady speaking in the serpents tongue, and being a confidant/ peer of the serpent is then likely a misunderstanding between authors?

"Likely" nothing, Reborn says one thing and Die Vecna Die says another, and Reborn came first.


Or do you believe it to mean that the Lady is less a being in a lesser tier that then serpent?

Uh, no. Extremely no. I can see the other thread, you know.


And that the serpent is some form of over-over-deity of magic and thus the personification of it...

No.


What I'm trying to find out here, is what it all means canon-wise. I get how that might be impossible, but that my goal.

Yeah, it's not prepared to do you any favors here.


I sort of feel that your take on it, differs somewhat from the official sources?

Oh do you now.


Though legend suggests that the Lady of Pain once belonged to the Ancient Brethren, among whom the Serpent also numbers,


(the language of the Serpent and its Ancient Brethren

To be frank, reading through the latter adventure has only reinforced my take on it - the Ancient Brethren and their Language Primeval are never given context as anything more than an antediluvian race which mastered the secrets of arcane power, and the Serpent is contextualized with symbology that suggests deification. We see artwork showing the Serpent as a manifestation from the skies instructing an aged but still mortal Vecna in how to cheat death. More artwork showing a ghostly Serpent wrapped around Vecna as he cements his rise to godhood. Another, showing the Serpent coiled around Vecna and Iuz as they battle, offering no interference but merely lurking in wait (Iuz triumphed in this battle). A final one, depicting Vecna trapped in Ravenloft and raging at the heavens, while the Serpent writhes about him still, whispering in his ear. Cavitius is replete with iconography of serpents, including an ouroboros surrounding Vecna's traditional symbol.

So yes, an ancient entity with no discernible place in the universe, acting through whispers in the ear of an agent who transforms his soul under its directives, and which understands the strange ways of the multiverse outside of the norm - a vestige does feel particularly fitting. As omnipotent embodiments of the force of magic in uber-deity form go, however... well, as Dragon 359 notes:


Most likely, the ghostly voices in Vecna's head, inspiring him to heights of arcane brilliance and depths of deprativty,
are merely the whispers of his own insanity and dark genius.

[Eldan]

Most likely maternal or grandmaternal. No, I don't have any notion of who might form an intermediate generation, don't ask.

If Tzardok is interested in Eldancanon, or my take on things...

The Queen of Air and Darkness and Titania were sisters, when the QoAaD was corrupted by the black gem. That much is more or less certain.

In my personal headcanon, they were both daughters of a high King of Faerie. He's unnamed, though sometimes I've called him "Balor" in my head, though that name is sadly taken in D&D. Back then, there was a Plane of Faerie, but the war between the two princesses over the succession and the Black Diamond sundered the entire plane, into parts that are now the Seelie and Unseelie Realm and - and this is a lot of headcanon right here - parts of the realms of Dream, Shadow and Mirrors and a seed of the Infinite Staircase. Rhiannon, in that headcanon, is the originator of the fey, Titania's grandmother, who now takes the role of grumbly, old and immensely powerful crone who advises the queen.

[Tzardok]

Interesting take, Eldan. I remember you saying something like that before. A broken Plane of Faerie doesn't fit my world, but I'll take the rest with thanks.

8. In an earlier thread you etablished the whole path of a soul, from being created in Positive, over living their life in the Prime or wherever, till death and the travel to the Outer Planes. What about the animus of a mindless creature? Does it have the same origin? And where does it go after the creature's death? Is there a plane where all animi go, like the Beastland as endstation for all animal souls?

9. What is the connection between lung dragons and "true" dragons? Are they creations of Io? Are they even related? Do lung dragons travel the planes or set up shop there?

[Gildedragon]

Tzardok 9: either the draconomicon or dragon magic list Lung Dragons as True Dragons. So yes. They would most likely be creations of Io. Same as the Gem Dragons and other obscure true dragons. Probably came into being after he ran out of colors and started looking at swatches with names like Seafoam, Mountain Pine, and Tuscan Clay

[Tzardok]

Oh, I know that they are true dragons by the rules. That's why I wrote "true" in quotation marks. I just feel that they are quite different in nature, purpose and so on (that damned Spirit subtype) and would like the expert's opinion on that.

[Melcar]

To be frank, reading through the latter adventure has only reinforced my take on it - the Ancient Brethren and their Language Primeval are never given context as anything more than an antediluvian race which mastered the secrets of arcane power, and the Serpent is contextualized with symbology that suggests deification. We see artwork showing the Serpent as a manifestation from the skies instructing an aged but still mortal Vecna in how to cheat death. More artwork showing a ghostly Serpent wrapped around Vecna as he cements his rise to godhood. Another, showing the Serpent coiled around Vecna and Iuz as they battle, offering no interference but merely lurking in wait (Iuz triumphed in this battle). A final one, depicting Vecna trapped in Ravenloft and raging at the heavens, while the Serpent writhes about him still, whispering in his ear. Cavitius is replete with iconography of serpents, including an ouroboros surrounding Vecna's traditional symbol.

So yes, an ancient entity with no discernible place in the universe, acting through whispers in the ear of an agent who transforms his soul under its directives, and which understands the strange ways of the multiverse outside of the norm - a vestige does feel particularly fitting. As omnipotent embodiments of the force of magic in uber-deity form go, however... well, as Dragon 359 notes:

Thanks again... a few more questions bear with.

Assuming your vestige theory is right, could it not indeed be a vestige of Mok'Slyk? Apparently the original and strongest form of the World Serpent, which now is shattered or split. In different deities... ?

What source do you consider most canon: Venca Reborn or Die Vecna Die? and could you elaborate on why? My reason for asking is because as you mention yourself the description seem to differ somewhat and the role of brethren and who they are change, as you say. It would seem you hold Venca Reborn as being most canon... What the brethren are and whom they are seems to be dependent on which source you use, not considering other sources like that of Dragon #359, and I would like to know why you choose what.

EDIT: What is your take on what the Language Primeval is?

Again thanks for the answers!

[afroakuma]

8. In an earlier thread you etablished the whole path of a soul, from being created in Positive, over living their life in the Prime or wherever, till death and the travel to the Outer Planes. What about the animus of a mindless creature? Does it have the same origin?

An animus is presumably, in essence, a product of either positive or negative energy.


And where does it go after the creature's death?

Probably just disperses.


9. What is the connection between lung dragons and "true" dragons?

The specific connection is unknown - certainly the powerful beings were at least inspired by the children of Io.


Are they creations of Io? Are they even related?

I can't speak with certainty about whether the first lung dragons were related to Io's children directly, but probably not. Lung dragons are spirit entities that serve the Celestial Bureaucracy.


Do lung dragons travel the planes or set up shop there?

They've been to many other worlds on the Material Plane and serve at the behest of deities as powerful spirits; I would imagine they exist on the planes at least where those divinities make their realms.


Assuming your vestige theory is right, could it not indeed be a vestige of Mok'Slyk?

So, just for efficiency's sake, "Mok'slyk" isn't even such an entity's canonical name, just a moniker used in a comic book which describes "Mok'slyk" as operating much in the manner of a conventional god. You seem to have a preconceived idea that you're trying really hard to garner support for, and my basic feeling on that is "if you want to do that for your campaign, go ahead."


What source do you consider most canon: Venca Reborn or Die Vecna Die?

I take no position. I'm simply pointing out that one author invented something wholecloth, and that material was taken for a later work, in which it appears to have been to some extent misinterpreted. Not as great an extent as to warrant any substantive debate, mind you.


What the brethren are and whom they are seems to be dependent on which source you use

Not tremendously. Both sources allude to them being an elder people whose fire has gone out of the multiverse, studied in a powerful and rare language of magic. Vecna Reborn suggests they are his ancestors, and Die, Vecna, Die! doesn't dispute that so much as it ends up suggesting at least at the textual level that the Serpent and (in their legends) the Lady of Pain are beings of vast power who ascended beyond such an origin.


EDIT: What is your take on what the Language Primeval is?

It appears to be just an older language of magic, one with which many elder races were familiar.

[Jowgen]

Yay, afrothread is back! :smallbiggrin:

So, the theme of day seems to be Vestiges, so I'mma roll with that. :smallsmile:

Naberius, the grinning hound. Unless I missed something, it seems to me that the writers completely ignored D&D lore and lifted his whole schtick directly from real life demonologist sources.

My question is, considering how he's described, where would you place his pre-vestige origins?

[Melcar]

So, just for efficiency's sake, "Mok'slyk" isn't even such an entity's canonical name, just a moniker used in a comic book which describes "Mok'slyk" as operating much in the manner of a conventional god. You seem to have a preconceived idea that you're trying really hard to garner support for, and my basic feeling on that is "if you want to do that for your campaign, go ahead."

Two things:

1) I was not aware that Mok'slyk was not its canon name. I actually thought it was. Do you know what his canonical name is`?

2) Its not so much me trying to garner support for an idea, its more that I actually believe there to be a connection, which I do think is very cool and all, but more than anything me trying to get my head around something which is really badly described. So really, I'm just trying to turn over all the stones to see how I end up understanding their connection. Yes I probably put way too much energy in this, but I find it fascinating.



I take no position. I'm simply pointing out that one author invented something wholecloth, and that material was taken for a later work, in which it appears to have been to some extent misinterpreted. Not as great an extent as to warrant any substantive debate, mind you.

Ok...



Not tremendously. Both sources allude to them being an elder people whose fire has gone out of the multiverse, studied in a powerful and rare language of magic. Vecna Reborn suggests they are his ancestors, and Die, Vecna, Die! doesn't dispute that so much as it ends up suggesting at least at the textual level that the Serpent and (in their legends) the Lady of Pain are beings of vast power who ascended beyond such an origin.


So both sources are equally right and equally wrong? Either the brethren are omnipotent beings, from the dawn of creation, or a race of mortal, albeit powerful spell-casters, from the dawn of creation... ?



It appears to be just an older language of magic, one with which many elder races were familiar.

Ok... Personally I would give it more credit. Apparently the lady speaks this language to alter the entire multiverse.


I don't think I have ever seen anyone apply Occam's razor more wholeheartedly than this. :smallwink: You have the most down to earth answer to all my question about the dawn of creation and beings of unfathomably power... I gather that we have a way different interpretations of the sources of this information. And that our starting point is so very different that for the questions I pose to have any meaning we have to accept the same premise. I don't think we do. Which is in no way meant as critique. I asked for your opinion and I got it.

But thanks again for taking the time to answer my questions and making these threads in general! :smallsmile:

[afroakuma]

Naberius, the grinning hound. Unless I missed something, it seems to me that the writers completely ignored D&D lore and lifted his whole schtick directly from real life demonologist sources.

My question is, considering how he's described, where would you place his pre-vestige origins?

There's very little there to place, they kept him quite substantially nebulous. So we're basically making things up. Let's see...

Well, rolling from his granted abilities and the allusion to Cerberus, as well as certain mythological traits ascribed to cranes...

Naberius was a silver-tongued mortal, not merely a flatterer but a sycophant and deceiver of the highest skill. A classic impostor, he faked his way through many a challenge, always making it out that he possessed skills which he did in fact not. He proved so deviously adept at appealing to others' desires that even the gods themselves were taken in, willingly looking the other way. Some binders believe this was at the behest of a trickster god, or that Naberius was assisted by divine intercession of a more malign character, but in any event, each deity who took him in believed Naberius to be their own personal confidant and good friend. His scheming eventually led him to trespass against a crane of the Upper Planes - perhaps it was the sacred cranes of the Celestial Bureaucracy, marking him out to warn the Chinese pantheon of his duplicity, or perhaps he attempted to inveigle the Crane Lord to learn the secrets of the beasts. One myth even suggests that the cranes were taken in, and allowed him to stand vigil as one of their own, a post he immediately betrayed to his own benefit.

Whatever transpired, Naberius was marked out by the crane, and the gods seized him. Seeing him as he truly was, they repaid him in kind, turning him into a base hound and giving him many faces to mark out his duplicity. His silver tongue became rough and guttural. Pursued ever by the cranes, who would warn others of his nature, Naberius resolved to turn the situation to his advantage by slipping into the Underworld, where dwelt Cerberus. Now a meager shadow of that legendary beast, Naberius hid in the darkness as the cranes followed. While the birds mistook the guardian of Hades for their scurrilous charge, Naberius stole his post, lurking at the gates of the Underworld and seizing the souls that came by, eating them in a bid to gain power as his former friends had once described to him. When Hades discovered this, he ejected Naberius from the Underworld for all of time, warning the other gods of death not to take him in. With no god wishing to accept him and having become something liminal through his improper feasting, Naberius in one stroke lost his life and his death, his spark without a place to settle on the Planes. With no god willing to acknowledge him and thus admit that they were taken in, Naberius and his tale vanished from the Planes.


Do you know what his canonical name is`?

Doesn't have one, hence "the Serpent."


So both sources are equally right and equally wrong? Either the brethren are omnipotent beings, from the dawn of creation, or a race of mortal, albeit powerful spell-casters, from the dawn of creation... ?

That's a gross misreading. Let me try again: neither source explicitly describes the "Ancient Brethren" as a group of cosmic beings. Both sources identify them as being an ancient group, and that is all. Die, Vecna, Die! merely proceeds to suggest that the Serpent originates from said group, which does not currently include the Lady of Pain, if it ever did. Also critically, in absolutely neither case are the "Ancient Brethren" from the dawn of creation.


Ok... Personally I would give it more credit.

Of course you would, because you want to. Again, I see the other thread, I read your post.


Apparently the lady speaks this language to alter the entire multiverse.

She patches an exploit and stabilizes memory leaks. She doesn't reorder the entire cosmos using it. She in fact specifically does not, as the book notes that despite the work she does on Sigil to get things back in gear, there has been a dramatic shift in the multiverse and vast fractures in the nature of reality that won't mend. It's a language whose words are used for epic-level magic, not the source code of the multiverse. If you want it to be, then whatever. I don't care what you do.

[Seto]

Yeepee, Afroakuma is back! All hail the mighty Loremaster!
I've missed your thread :)

[Deadline]

Yay! afroakuma's back in business!

So, how about them Ethergaunts? Specifically, what info can you provide about them that isn't in the Fiend Folio? I've spotted a couple references to them having something to do with Joystealers and Spellweavers, but I'm curious what your extensive knowledge has to say about them, their history, and their plans.

[Melcar]

Doesn't have one, hence "the Serpent."

Ok... I wonder where the guy in the link, who mentioned that, got it from then. It seemed very plausible that the World Serpent would be the same entity, though, giving the way they are portrayed? Golden Skins of the Word Serpent and all... It would make sense to me... it fits. But notwithstanding your vestige theory and you had to give it a name what would it be. My question is which being would you venture it to be then? Io, Ouroboros... ? I'm curious to know other possibilities there could be...


That's a gross misreading. Let me try again: neither source explicitly describes the "Ancient Brethren" as a group of cosmic beings. Both sources identify them as being an ancient group, and that is all. Die, Vecna, Die! merely proceeds to suggest that the Serpent originates from said group, which does not currently include the Lady of Pain, if it ever did. Also critically, in absolutely neither case are the "Ancient Brethren" from the dawn of creation.

"[...] legend suggests that the Lady of Pain once belonged to the Ancient Brethren, among whom the Serpent also numbers[...]" (DVD, 129). This is one of the possible explanations in DM #359 too... That article mentioned also, that there is a connection between the brethren and other beings from before the multiverse. Wouldn't the time before the multiverse be considered the dawn of creation?


Of course you would, because you want to. Again, I see the other thread, I read your post.

"[...] the Lady of Pain, a confidant or perhaps even peer to the Serpent, speaks in the Language Primeval (the language of the Serpent and its Ancient Brethren, in which the three words of Creation Once Spoken were uttered) [...] Uttering her words, she attempts to shore up the sum of all creation, also called superspace." (DVD, 151). If you can use the language to attempt to shore up the sum of all creation, then I would entitle the language to more than just the an arcane language like that of draconic or Loross.


She patches an exploit and stabilizes memory leaks. She doesn't reorder the entire cosmos using it. She in fact specifically does not, as the book notes that despite the work she does on Sigil to get things back in gear, there has been a dramatic shift in the multiverse and vast fractures in the nature of reality that won't mend. It's a language whose words are used for epic-level magic, not the source code of the multiverse. If you want it to be, then whatever. I don't care what you do.

Indeed she only attempts to shore it up... I see how it might "just" be the language in which epic spells are written, but could that not be the source code? I mean is there a limit to what epic spells can do? Or what level 10, 11, 12... XX could do in 2nd edition D&D?

Thanks again!:smallsmile:

[Tzardok]

Ok... I wonder where the guy in the link, who mentioned that, got it from then. It seemed very plausible that the World Serpent would be the same entity, though, giving the way they are portrayed? Golden Skins of the Word Serpent and all... It would make sense to me... it fits. But notwithstanding your vestige theory and you had to give it a name what would it be. My question is which being would you venture it to be then? Io, Ouroboros... ? I'm curious to know other possibilities there could be...


Didn't they create the name "Golden Skins of the World Serpent" in Serpent Kingdoms as part of the "clumsy retcon of the concept 'world serpent'" (quote Afro V)? Besides, does the Ouroboros exist in D&D?

10. In this post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18193340&postcount=234) you described the leaders of the different genie races. Would similar leaders for the Qorrash and the Khayal exist?

11. Last question from the list; disregard the question if you don't like it: Imagine we were building a cosmology based on Chinese mythology with fitting elemental planes, what would an Elemental Plane of Metal be like?

[hamishspence]

Didn't they create the name "Golden Skins of the World Serpent" in Serpent Kingdoms as part of the "clumsy retcon of the concept 'world serpent'" (quote Afro V)? Besides, does the Ouroboros exist in D&D?

I think the World Serpent of Serpent Kingdoms was called Amphisbaena - it wasn't a snake with tail in mouth - it was a snake with a head at each end.

One of Sseth's identities was that, according to the Elder Serpents of Set article in Dragon 313 (November 2003), written a bit before -Serpent Kingdoms was July 2004):

page 85


Sseth the Great Snake was once the Faerunian god of poison and serpents of all sorts, from typical vipers to yuan-ti to nagas. He was known across the Realms by different names, since he changed names and aliases as often as his serpent followers shed their skins. In the western Realms, from the Serpent Hills to the Shining Plains to the Serpent's Holding, Sseth was often known as Varae and venerated by a snake cult. In the south, from the Jungles of Chult to. the Black Jungles to the Forest of Amtar, he was known as Squamata the Black, as Amphisbaena the World Serpent, and also by his true name - Sseth the Sibilant Death.


(then it mentions how Set the Mulhorandi god bound Sseth in sleep, and took his mantle).


I would suggest that Sseth used that name because it was the name of the deity Sseth is a fragment of.

(Sseth originated as an avatar of Merrshaulk, who was a fragment of the World Serpent, but ended up with a different set of domains - probably through absorbing other fragments, and continuing to be worshipped under their names, discarding the domains he didn't want to grant - A deity can only have so many).

[afroakuma]

So, how about them Ethergaunts? Specifically, what info can you provide about them that isn't in the Fiend Folio? I've spotted a couple references to them having something to do with Joystealers and Spellweavers, but I'm curious what your extensive knowledge has to say about them, their history, and their plans.

Nothing that hasn't already been said in an older version of this thread. They were a cool idea that didn't see any use, likely because of their higher-end CR. One of a number of interesting organized badguy races that suffered this fate. I have in the past suggested that they may have been a product of aboleth experimentation on slaves in eons past, but that's not strictly canonical.

Melcar, I'm not going to engage on this any further in this thread. If you want to discuss it further for some reason, feel free to PM me, but I am beyond done on this. You don't seem to want my opinions, so I really don't know why we're still doing this.


10. In this post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18193340&postcount=234) you described the leaders of the different genie races. Would similar leaders for the Qorrash and the Khayal exist?

I don't see why not, though of course neither was fleshed out and so the material isn't there to discuss.


11. Last question from the list; disregard the question if you don't like it: Imagine we were building a cosmology based on Chinese mythology with fitting elemental planes, what would an Elemental Plane of Metal be like?

Probably not unlike the Plane of Earth, save with molten metal rivers. I would expect electric magic to be enhanced on the plane.

[khadgar567]

first good to see you back afrokuma

[Tzardok]

Probably not unlike the Plane of Earth, save with molten metal rivers. I would expect electric magic to be enhanced on the plane.

Ooohhh, I feel inspired. :smallamused:



I don't see why not, though of course neither was fleshed out and so the material isn't there to discuss.

I couldn't trouble you with conjecturing a bit, could I? :smalleek:

[Melcar]

Didn't they create the name "Golden Skins of the World Serpent" in Serpent Kingdoms as part of the "clumsy retcon of the concept 'world serpent'" (quote Afro V)? Besides, does the Ouroboros exist in D&D?

I don't know. Whether or not Ouroboros exists, well I thought so, but come to think of it. I have not seen it in any printing... But Ao the lady of Pain isn't mentioned much either and well the serpent, I only discovered last week. Have been playing D&D since Baldur's Gate first came out!



I think the World Serpent of Serpent Kingdoms was called Amphisbaena - it wasn't a snake with tail in mouth - it was a snake with a head at each end.

One of Sseth's identities was that, according to the Elder Serpents of Set article in Dragon 313 (November 2003), written a bit before -Serpent Kingdoms was July 2004):

page 85


Sseth the Great Snake was once the Faerunian god of poison and serpents of all sorts, from typical vipers to yuan-ti to nagas. He was known across the Realms by different names, since he changed names and aliases as often as his serpent followers shed their skins. In the western Realms, from the Serpent Hills to the Shining Plains to the Serpent's Holding, Sseth was often known as Varae and venerated by a snake cult. In the south, from the Jungles of Chult to. the Black Jungles to the Forest of Amtar, he was known as Squamata the Black, as Amphisbaena the World Serpent, and also by his true name - Sseth the Sibilant Death.


(then it mentions how Set the Mulhorandi god bound Sseth in sleep, and took his mantle).


I would suggest that Sseth used that name because it was the name of the deity Sseth is a fragment of.

(Sseth originated as an avatar of Merrshaulk, who was a fragment of the World Serpent, but ended up with a different set of domains - probably through absorbing other fragments, and continuing to be worshipped under their names, discarding the domains he didn't want to grant - A deity can only have so many).

Then that makes me wonder what and who that World Serpent really is... Apparently more than one god/primordial have been called the world serpent...

[hamishspence]

That Serpent was supposed to be the progenitor of a great many scalykind deities. It's possible that it was not a "conventional" deity itself - but a primordial or a primal spirit (if you're using 4e cosmological terms).

Ubtao, a deity in 3.0-3.5, was retconned into being a primordial that sided with the gods, for example. The Elder Evil Dendar the Night Serpent was also retconned into being a primordial.

[afroakuma]

I couldn't trouble you with conjecturing a bit, could I? :smalleek:

I think that goes beyond "conjecture" and into "make stuff up" at that point. :smalltongue:

Though that being said, I did forget that the Tome of Magic actually elaborates on the leader of the khayal, at the very least. The King of Shadows rules from the Grand Palace of Endings in the City of Onyx.

I don't know why there's still discussion about the Serpent taking place, but I'd appreciate if it moved on.

[Telonius]

Whoo, welcome back! I have a question that actually came up last month in another thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?524782-Lore-question-What-is-the-primary-source-of-the-Yugoloth-s-quot-Heart-of-Darkness-quot): The "Heart of Darkness."


There are oblique references to an artifact called the "Heart of Darkness" all over the internet's stock of Yugoloth and Planescape lore, but none of them ever list a primary source. If you (like me) have never heard of it, apparently the Yugoloth's leader (the General of Gehenna) used the HoD to purge Law and Chaos from his people. Thing is, I can't find a reference in any WotC source. I've been digging through book after book, and I'm starting to think there's no mention of it in 3e.

So, to that end, I need a TON more information on what the HoD is, where it is, how to use it... basically, if there's lore I want to see it. I've been working off secondary sources to guess what books they might be referencing, but without a library of 2e books I'm missing a lot of sources. I've seen claims that it's a hundred-foot tall pillar, that it's an artifact which can be worn around the neck, and that it never existed at all. But, lacking any WotC sources, I'm not sure what the truth of it is.

Anyone even know what I'm talking about?

So we had a bit of a back and forth without ever really resolving if that artifact was ever statted out or described in more than rumors. Was this ever a statted object, or was it just a plot hook/ plot device?

[unseenmage]

A belated welcome back, I enjoy these threads greatly.

Does the greater D&D cosmology support alternate prime material planes via either multiverse theory or more of a butterfly effect alternate timelines situation?

Would there be any way of piercing reality to access multiverse theory prime materials?

[Tzardok]

Whoo, welcome back! I have a question that actually came up last month in another thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?524782-Lore-question-What-is-the-primary-source-of-the-Yugoloth-s-quot-Heart-of-Darkness-quot): The "Heart of Darkness."



So we had a bit of a back and forth without ever really resolving if that artifact was ever statted out or described in more than rumors. Was this ever a statted object, or was it just a plot hook/ plot device?

IIRC the Heart of Darkness was only mentioned in 2e scources in myths about the baernoloths and how they created the yugoloths. It's background flavor.


Does the greater D&D cosmology support alternate prime material planes via either multiverse theory or more of a butterfly effect alternate timelines situation?

Would there be any way of piercing reality to access multiverse theory prime materials?

There exists a greater multiverse, but most of those alternate realities have vastly different cosmologies or metaphysical laws. The easiest way to reach (and it's still damn difficult) is traveling via Plane of Shadows there. If you wish to know more, I suggest you search the older threads, as this matter has been discussed there at length before.

[afroakuma]

Whoo, welcome back! I have a question that actually came up last month in another thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?524782-Lore-question-What-is-the-primary-source-of-the-Yugoloth-s-quot-Heart-of-Darkness-quot): The "Heart of Darkness."

So we had a bit of a back and forth without ever really resolving if that artifact was ever statted out or described in more than rumors. Was this ever a statted object, or was it just a plot hook/ plot device?

Neither, particularly - more a facet of lore, a stepstone of mythology, if you will, no more real and no more false in and of itself than any other story running around. A fanciful name, given neither whereabouts nor hard character. What it has done was suggested, what it does do, if in fact it does do anything, is unknown. The object was never statted, that I can tell you.


Does the greater D&D cosmology support alternate prime material planes via either multiverse theory or more of a butterfly effect alternate timelines situation?

Would there be any way of piercing reality to access multiverse theory prime materials?

D&D is riddled with peering into alternate Primes; the chiefest method of transit between is via the Plane of Shadow, which crosses between multiverses, but other methods exist. Chronomancers are warned in particular about playing near sensitive points in sensitive timelines, where there lies a risk of plummeting into an inescapable alternity - a future different from that which you saw, but a past identical to that which led there, no way to move back to an exit point in the new timestream as the point of divergence would require doubling back on your own timeline.

Don't do that. :smallwink:

Powerful magic, as is ever the case, is the method to achieve this goal.

[Bronk]

The demiplane the city of Union is in is weird. It's neither coexistent with nor coterminous with 'any other plane', yet magic works normally there, and portals function without an astral connection. Is there any explanation for this, or any other example of a demiplane that works the same way?

[unseenmage]

...

D&D is riddled with peering into alternate Primes; the chiefest method of transit between is via the Plane of Shadow, which crosses between multiverses, but other methods exist. Chronomancers are warned in particular about playing near sensitive points in sensitive timelines, where there lies a risk of plummeting into an inescapable alternity - a future different from that which you saw, but a past identical to that which led there, no way to move back to an exit point in the new timestream as the point of divergence would require doubling back on your own timeline.

Don't do that. :smallwink:

Powerful magic, as is ever the case, is the method to achieve this goal.
Thank you. Much appreciated.
Imma do the thing though.
Maybe run it as a D&D playthrough of the plot if the Fringe TV series.

[afroakuma]

The demiplane the city of Union is in is weird. It's neither coexistent with nor coterminous with 'any other plane', yet magic works normally there, and portals function without an astral connection. Is there any explanation for this, or any other example of a demiplane that works the same way?

I don't think the authors really thought through what that meant - the section on demiplanes in the Manual of the Planes spells out that demiplanes aren't accessible except where they're coterminous. One word strikes me as particularly revealing, however - "natural." My suspicion is that Union is an Astral-originated demiplane which the mercanes somehow severed from natural coterminous status with the Astral Plane via what are probably artifact-level anchors to the broader multiverse whose moorings shift. If you want an interesting plot hook, perhaps unbinding more than one of the portals at a time poses a risk to the stability of Union, and finding a way to unbind all three simultaneously would cause it to become "lost."


Thank you. Much appreciated.
Imma do the thing though.

...you're going to strand yourself in an alternate parallel timeline from which return is impossible by traveling to a tenuous part of the timeline of Krynnspace?

I mean, I don't see why that's an ambition, I wouldn't want to get stuck in a single alternate Dragonlance continuity, feels kinda narrow.

Now if you meant you just want to mess about in alternate universes differentiated by alterations to the timeline but otherwise similar, that's a different matter.

[unseenmage]

...

...you're going to strand yourself in an alternate parallel timeline from which return is impossible by traveling to a tenuous part of the timeline of Krynnspace?

I mean, I don't see why that's an ambition, I wouldn't want to get stuck in a single alternate Dragonlance continuity, feels kinda narrow.

Now if you meant you just want to mess about in alternate universes differentiated by alterations to the timeline but otherwise similar, that's a different matter.

The second thing with threat of the first looming as penalty for mucking about too much.
Overuse of the Teleport Through Time spell specifically comes to mind. Less RAW methods would be employed were this from the GM side of the table of course.

IIRC there is a plane of 'time' that can just be Plane Shift-ed to?

[afroakuma]

The second thing with threat of the first looming as penalty for mucking about too much.
Overuse of the Teleport Through Time spell specifically comes to mind. Less RAW methods would be employed were this from the GM side of the table of course.

Eh, teleport through time isn't the same as real chronomancy. Among other things, it does permit doubling without inherently catastrophic consequences (I mean, if you meet yourself, you will attempt to murder yourselves with great force, but I meant more broadly) and of course you can't leap into the future with it. I'd say talk to your GM about what they want to do in their campaign and roll from there; time travel is one of the more taxing things to ask a GM to improvise, after all.


IIRC there is a plane of 'time' that can just be Plane Shift-ed to?

Temporal Prime isn't a plane, strictly speaking.

[Jowgen]

There's very little there to place, they kept him quite substantially nebulous. So we're basically making things up. Let's see...

Well, rolling from his granted abilities and the allusion to Cerberus, as well as certain mythological traits ascribed to cranes...

Naberius was a silver-tongued mortal, not merely a flatterer but a sycophant and deceiver of the highest skill. [...]

Hmmm, I'd never considered Naberius as a former mortal.

My own train of thought was always more along the lines of him being some variety of primordial fiend that got kicked out of the natural order due to one of the relevant cataclysms.

Maybe an Ancient Baatorian Lord who avoided whatever happened to the rest of his kin by becoming a vestige? Or maybe the intelligent portion of Cerberus that was split off when the Heart of Darkness Law-Chaos sundered Fiend-kind? Or, and this was the one I kinda favored, the same kind of missing-link abyssal Fiend as Pazuzu (both bird-related, snake-wolf form kinda echos another certain fiend...), who was vestiged as punishement by the Queen of Chaos or vestiged himself to avoid the Eladrin's genocide?

I could never quite get any of these to fit in my head though, though since he's rather lacking in the Bad-guy department; i.e. smooth-talking scholar doesn't exactly scream ancient manifestation of cosmic Evil... still, do any of thes make a similar ammount of sense to you as the mortal background option?

[afroakuma]

Hmmm, I'd never considered Naberius as a former mortal.

Why not? Many other vestiges were.


do any of thes make a similar ammount of sense to you as the mortal background option?

No. :smalltongue:

Is there a particular reason you feel the need to have him be something epic?

[Jowgen]

Why not? Many other vestiges were.

[...]

Is there a particular reason you feel the need to have him be something epic?

Mainly to try and make it fit with the actual version (http://www.deliriumsrealm.com/naberius/) from the Dictionnaire Infernal.

"Valiant Marquis of Hell" just screams Fiend-lord to me.

[martixy]

Hey, Afro... I have a tough one:

Can you give info on something called "The Barbatos device"?

In FC1 there is a passing mention and the web enhancement only elaborates to the point of calling it "[an] infamous plane-spanning engine".

On the great internetz, there is an old forum post that does provide a lot of info, but cites no sources, which inevitably places doubt on its veracity.

Are you able to dispel some of that doubt?

[afroakuma]

Mainly to try and make it fit with the actual version (http://www.deliriumsrealm.com/naberius/) from the Dictionnaire Infernal.

Vestiges don't fit with those, though, that's the point of situating them in D&D canon. :smalltongue:


Hey, Afro... I have a tough one:

Can you give info on something called "The Barbatos device"?

From what I've seen, it was nothing more than an oblique off-the-cuff mention in FCI and its web enhancement. Barbatos is a Duke of Hell who serves as marshal of Maladomini and commands its armies, but why that should tie into a ship on the Prime and its unfortunate stranding in the Abyss is a mystery.

[Eldan]

Mainly to try and make it fit with the actual version (http://www.deliriumsrealm.com/naberius/) from the Dictionnaire Infernal.

"Valiant Marquis of Hell" just screams Fiend-lord to me.

If you went by that, they'd all be infernal nobility, other than Acererak and Tenebrous.

[martixy]

From what I've seen, it was nothing more than an oblique off-the-cuff mention in FCI and its web enhancement. Barbatos is a Duke of Hell who serves as marshal of Maladomini and commands its armies, but why that should tie into a ship on the Prime and its unfortunate stranding in the Abyss is a mystery.

I don't think the devil is related. Probably just a naming coincidence.

[Tzardok]

If you went by that, they'd all be infernal nobility, other than Acererak and Tenebrous.

And Karsus.

[Jowgen]

Vestiges don't fit with those, though, that's the point of situating them in D&D canon. :smalltongue:


If you went by that, they'd all be infernal nobility, other than Acererak and Tenebrous.


I don't think the devil is related. Probably just a naming coincidence.

Normally I'd agree, but in Naberius' case; tome of magic lifted every piece of fluff (minus the marquis of hell bit) directly from the aforementioned source(s). Each of his names, forms he appears as, the design of the seal, the benefits he bestows, even the theory about some relation to the Greek Cerberus... it's all copy-paste.

I guess it just grates on me that they did nothing to adapt the mythological background to D&D lore. I mean, going by the pictures (http://b.foto.radikal.ru/0607/b48f2983229a.jpg) he even looks like a Tanar'ri, so it should've been easy enough to slot him into that side of things. It just feels... unfinished, hence my desire to come up with a Fiend-based headcanon.

Anycase, thank you very much for your input.

[Gildedragon]

Normally I'd agree, but in Naberius' case; tome of magic lifted every piece of fluff (minus the marquis of hell bit) directly from the aforementioned source(s). Each of his names, forms he appears as, the design of the seal, the benefits he bestows, even the theory about some relation to the Greek Cerberus... it's all copy-paste.

I guess it just grates on me that they did nothing to adapt the mythological background to D&D lore. I mean, going by the pictures (http://b.foto.radikal.ru/0607/b48f2983229a.jpg) he even looks like a Tanar'ri, so it should've been easy enough to slot him into that side of things. It just feels... unfinished, hence my desire to come up with a Fiend-based headcanon.

Anycase, thank you very much for your input.

Ditto for most of them. Ronove, for example, is very goetic

[afroakuma]

I don't think the devil is related. Probably just a naming coincidence.

I rather agree. I suspect whoever wrote that either didn't know the name was in use, or forgot.


Normally I'd agree, but in Naberius' case; tome of magic lifted every piece of fluff (minus the marquis of hell bit) directly from the aforementioned source(s). Each of his names, forms he appears as, the design of the seal, the benefits he bestows, even the theory about some relation to the Greek Cerberus... it's all copy-paste.

That suggests laziness more than intent. :smalltongue:


I guess it just grates on me that they did nothing to adapt the mythological background to D&D lore.

If they did, it would be spectacularly boring. "He's Geryon, but less relevant." Do you want me to make up a fiend-based background for him? Would that make you happier? I can do that, I just felt the one I created was much more inventive.

[Tzardok]

I liked that version of Naberius, we don't need another one. But if you are in an inventing mood, the Qorrash are still leaderless. :smallbiggrin:

[Jowgen]

If they did, it would be spectacularly boring. "He's Geryon, but less relevant." Do you want me to make up a fiend-based background for him? Would that make you happier?

Thank you for the kind offer; but I'd rather not impose. Forcing/demanding a different Afrocanon just because the one given differs from expectation is akin to heresy as far as I'm concerned.


On a completely different topic though: Fey. Other than the Fey feature articles, they don't get a lot of love afaik; so questions about their racial origins, place on the cosmic chessboard and their pantheon go largely unanswered.

In your opinion, are the Fey "relevant" in the grand scheme of things and thus "deserve" their own full pantheon/plane; or is it best to just file them under the Eladrin/Arborea section of things and be done with them?

[Lord_Gareth]

It is said that The Unwelcome is worshiped by harpies. What is their "church" like? Favorite sacrifice? Clerics?

[Tzardok]

The Unwelcome? Do you mean the female demon lord Barbu? (what the abyss do you call that? A demon lady?) Or is there some other divine being with that title?

[hamishspence]

"Demon Queen" tends to be the usual counterpart used "Demon Queen of Spiders" "Demon Queen of Mariliths" and so on - though some use "Lady of"

So, if Ardat The Unavowed was feeling boastful, she might announce herself as "Demon Queen of Harpies".

[Wraith]

I did a little bit of reading into the mythical beginning of the D&D cosmology and discovered 4 of the entities who were present at the "big bang"; the twinned serpants whose separation created the heavens and hells, Ao the Allfather, and the Lady of Pain.

I would like to ask afro; who else might have been around at that point? Who or what are the Ancient Brethren? And, if you're willing to speculate, what else might the Lady of Pain be, if not either one of them or simply some unique self-appointed agent?

[afroakuma]

In your opinion, are the Fey "relevant" in the grand scheme of things

The first two gods in my canon were Io and Rhiannon, you tell me. :smalltongue:


and thus "deserve" their own full pantheon/plane; or is it best to just file them under the Eladrin/Arborea section of things and be done with them?

I'm not 100% sure what this is asking.


It is said that The Unwelcome is worshiped by harpies.

Well, I mean, it's not. You're thinking of Ardat, the Unavowed. I mean, I know you're actually thinking of Barbu because you think her title is hilarious and you want more details, but you made a fritzed connection this time, Chuckles.

I did a little bit of reading into the mythical beginning of the D&D cosmology and discovered 4 of the entities who were present at the "big bang"; the twinned serpants whose separation created the heavens and hells, Ao the Allfather, and the Lady of Pain.

Well, none of that is canonically established whatsoever. But sure.


I would like to ask afro; who else might have been around at that point?

At the beginning of the multiverse, there was no existence native to it within it. Escapees from a prior multiverse, the leShay, had found refuge in this one (though when they arrived, who can say).


Who or what are the Ancient Brethren?

I just did this. :smallsigh:

The Ancient Brethren were an antediluvian people from the world of Oerth, who had tapped into the secrets of powerful magic by studying words of the Language Primeval, a tongue associated with epic magic. At some point, they were conflated with the idea of vastly powerful cosmic beings, via a series of misreadings, culminating in loose speculation in a "mysteries of D&D" article in Dragon 359. Many legends are connected to them, including one of many rumors bouncing around the Planes suggesting that the Lady of Pain was once of their kindred, and it is the understanding of the lich-god Vecna that he is a descendant of this race.


And, if you're willing to speculate, what else might the Lady of Pain be, if not either one of them or simply some unique self-appointed agent?

Squirrels, robe, etc...

[Bronk]

I don't think the authors really thought through what that meant - the section on demiplanes in the Manual of the Planes spells out that demiplanes aren't accessible except where they're coterminous. One word strikes me as particularly revealing, however - "natural." My suspicion is that Union is an Astral-originated demiplane which the mercanes somehow severed from natural coterminous status with the Astral Plane via what are probably artifact-level anchors to the broader multiverse whose moorings shift. If you want an interesting plot hook, perhaps unbinding more than one of the portals at a time poses a risk to the stability of Union, and finding a way to unbind all three simultaneously would cause it to become "lost."

Thanks! It's great that you're back, and I appreciate the plot hook.

I have a couple of questions for you...

First, you've mentioned a few times in this new thread that you made a list of gods. Where could I find that?



The other question I had is about something concerning deities and I was wondering if there was any more info out there. I've seen come up in a number of novels that the gods have a sort of extra level of reality that they sometimes inhabit that isn't described as being part of the regularly accessible planes, nor does it appear to be part of their divine realm. While there, they are larger than life, and what affects them there appears to be permanent and final to their existence.

In the novel Tymora's Luck, Chauntea is hanging out over Faerun, overseeing and facilitating farm growth. Lathander shows up, and scuffs his foot, screwing up the harvest in an entire country. The whole thing is viewed by a special scrying session by the Sensates in Sigil.

In the Lady Penitent series (The first two of which, at least, were in 3.5), Elistraee and Lolth are playing a for-keeps game of sava with lesser beings as pawns, in a place between their divine realms overseen by Ao, who appears as a giant eye far above where they are. At some point, their pawns are transported to a plane where the colossal form of (I think) Guandahar is roaming, they kill it, and evidently it's his true form, and he's dead for good... he had an avatar at Lloth's feet, and he keeled right over.

So, my question here is: What's the deal with this view that the gods have, or place that they often inhabit? Is it only in the novels, or does it come up somewhere else? Is it a god only plane, or just something representing how the gods see the Prime? Something else? Does the view from these two sets of books represent different things?

[afroakuma]

First, you've mentioned a few times in this new thread that you made a list of gods. Where could I find that?

Inside the spoiler. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20142407&postcount=1054)


In the novel Tymora's Luck, Chauntea is hanging out over Faerun, overseeing and facilitating farm growth. Lathander shows up, and scuffs his foot, screwing up the harvest in an entire country. The whole thing is viewed by a special scrying session by the Sensates in Sigil.

I am quite familiar, yes.


So, my question here is: What's the deal with this view that the gods have, or place that they often inhabit? Is it only in the novels, or does it come up somewhere else? Is it a god only plane, or just something representing how the gods see the Prime?

It's not a god-only plane; the fact that mortal magic was able to nose in on it seems to comfortably rule that out. Given the extent to which the Sensates' show was about the rare experience of getting to spy quite nosily on the gods, I would suggest that it represents a horning-in on their private perceptual spheres - Chauntea would have a place in her realm in which she sows in a field that represents Faerun, for instance, and things done to that field would reflect her imposition of her power on the Prime. Lathander's trod was nothing she had to let happen, at best it was a petulant suggestion, with all the impact of a child knocking over a pile of blocks if she decided to clean it up. The gods do tend to operate via proxies, avatars, and projections, even in their own realms. Tymora's Luck shows what happens when a god is present in person; Beshaba is a vast giantess who hemorrhages misfortune, until she decides to manifest as something else. It's been alluded to at times that even these humanoid manifestations aren't the "true forms" or core essences of the powers. No source has ever tried to dig into the details, however.

[Jowgen]

The first two gods in my canon were Io and Rhiannon, you tell me. :smalltongue:

I'm not 100% sure what this is asking.


After some digging I finally found Rhiannon in dragon 155 (which, incidentally, really showed me just how much the Fey fell to the wayside in the transition to 3rd ed). May I ask, why did you choose her as your Fey progenitor deity instead of Titania, and what's their relation in (your) canon?

What meant was that it seems to me that the Fey are basically portrayed as side-line characters on the great wheel, so I wondered whether it was sensible for them to have a whole stocked pantheon; when instead you could just have them serve the court of stars just as well.

[gkathellar]

If enough people started worshipping a dead power, would the dead power be revived? Would a totally new one emerge?

Actually, barring cases like Bane or Bhaal's, can a dead power be returned to life? What could accomplish such a feat?

[Tzardok]

After some digging I finally found Rhiannon in dragon 155 (which, incidentally, really showed me just how much the Fey fell to the wayside in the transition to 3rd ed). May I ask, why did you choose her as your Fey progenitor deity instead of Titania, and what's their relation in (your) canon?


I asked the same question on the first page of the thread. The answer-post is here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22110540&postcount=22)

I apologize for linking the whole post; I haven't figured out yet how to quote more than one post that way.

[Rogthnor]

Two Questions:

1. How much effect does belief have on the makeup of the non-outer planes? I know it has changed the exemplars and makeup of the outer planes, but I don't think I have ever seen belief cause one of the other planes or their denizens to change.

2. How much information does a god have about their realm? If I walk into, lets say the library of lore, does Boccob instantly know my location, what I look like, how many coins I'm carrying on me and what my favorite food is? If he does know this, is it an active or passive process. I.E. if he doesn't think to check will he still know my favorite food and the amount of coins I carry?

[Svata]

I asked the same question on the first page of the thread. The answer-post is here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22110540&postcount=22)

I apologize for linking the whole post; I haven't figured out yet how to quote more than one post that way.

Just to the right of "reply with quote is "+. Click that on every post you wanna quote.

[afroakuma]

May I ask, why did you choose her as your Fey progenitor deity instead of Titania

Because the mythology around Titania suggests she arose from somewhere, rather than being one of the oldest deities in the multiverse.


What meant was that it seems to me that the Fey are basically portrayed as side-line characters on the great wheel

If you mean on the Outer Planes as a whole, the certainly... but that's sort of like saying dragons are side characters on the Great Wheel.


so I wondered whether it was sensible for them to have a whole stocked pantheon;

Why not?


when instead you could just have them serve the court of stars just as well.

The leaders of the eladrin? Why do that?


If enough people started worshipping a dead power, would the dead power be revived?

Yep.


Would a totally new one emerge?

Depends on the belief. If it's pretty consistently belief for that deity specifically, it will return them. If not... it could create a functionally new power.


Actually, barring cases like Bane or Bhaal's, can a dead power be returned to life? What could accomplish such a feat?

Yes indeed. The adventure module Dead Gods specifically covers the struggles of Orcus to return to life with the help of a powerful artifact and his high priest.


1. How much effect does belief have on the makeup of the non-outer planes?

Zero.


2. How much information does a god have about their realm? If I walk into, lets say the library of lore, does Boccob instantly know my location, what I look like, how many coins I'm carrying on me and what my favorite food is? If he does know this, is it an active or passive process. I.E. if he doesn't think to check will he still know my favorite food and the amount of coins I carry?

Unless a god is actively using remote sensing within their realm, the only information they normally possess is anything they could personally sense locally. A god of intermediate or lesser rank can potentially hear everything that goes on within their realm; a greater god has a realm larger than the range of their hearing. Similarly, an intermediate or lesser god can see to the borders of their realm (provided they have an unobstructed view).

Without specific abilities pertaining to hidden knowledge, a god does not know anything other than what could be externally perceived about you. Some deities may possess abilities to transcend these limitations, or of course employ powerful magic for a similar purpose.

[gkathellar]

Coming off of that earlier question, two more:

1. What in Asmo's name is the story with Orcus being Tenebrous and whatnot? He was a demon prince (Orcus), and then he was killed and became a god (Tenebrous), and then became Orcus again, or ... yeah, if you could break this one down for me, I'd appreciate it.

2. What happens when two gods get conflated by a huge portion of their worshippers? Do they merge, or share from a pool, or steal shamelessly from each other, or fight to the death, or what? If there's more than one possibility, what determining factors are involved?


Without specific abilities pertaining to hidden knowledge, a god does not know anything other than what could be externally perceived about you. Some deities may possess abilities to transcend these limitations, or of course employ powerful magic for a similar purpose.

Presumably, though, the probability of a god of wizards like Boccob not having such powerful magic in place rests squarely in the realm of nope.

[afroakuma]

1. What in Asmo's name is the story with Orcus being Tenebrous and whatnot? He was a demon prince (Orcus), and then he was killed and became a god (Tenebrous), and then became Orcus again, or ... yeah, if you could break this one down for me, I'd appreciate it.

In essence, through some strange happenstance of the planes, Orcus's death catalyzed his divinity - but Kiaransalee had already been working to douse the spark. Tenebrous became a sort of "undead god," barely more than a vestige, the ambulatory residue of a being of belief slowly circling the drain. Through the rediscovery of his hidden Wand and the efforts of his high priest Quah-Namog, Orcus was restored to life, but the transition brought him back as a demon prince anew, rather than a god. It's possible that Orcus's associations with death and undeath were responsible for this strange set of circumstances.


2. What happens when two gods get conflated by a huge portion of their worshippers? Do they merge, or share from a pool, or steal shamelessly from each other, or fight to the death, or what? If there's more than one possibility, what determining factors are involved?

It's in some ways up to the deities themselves - that kind of thing doesn't happen overnight, after all, and most gods would attempt to step in and square things out. Where you don't see that happening so much is in cases when one god desires to usurp another. Let's take Shar as an example, since this is her jam.

Shar sends in agents who claim to serve the other god - Eshowdow, for instance, a Chultan deity of shadow. These worshipers teach rites and practices that, while uttered in the name of Eshowdow, are done in veneration of the Dark Goddess. The manifestations that answer the prayers of these worshipers will be Shar in disguise. Sectarian infighting is likely to result, and the syncretism that follows will see either Shar's traditions or Eshowdow's predominate, determining whether the worship is hers or his. Occasionally one just straight-up murders the other to make the process cleaner - Shar ganked Ibrandul and then pretended to be him for years in order to acquire his portfolio of caverns.e.[/QUOTE]

[tyckspoon]

Presumably, though, the probability of a god of wizards like Boccob not having such powerful magic in place rests squarely in the realm of nope.

He certainly has the capability, but Boccob may not be the best example of that kind of thing. His best known epithet/title is The Uncaring, after all - the level of interest/paranoia/suspicion/whatever required to want to surveil every little happening in his divine realm just isn't there.

[Gildedragon]

He certainly has the capability, but Boccob may not be the best example of that kind of thing. His best known epithet/title is The Uncaring, after all - the level of interest/paranoia/suspicion/whatever required to want to surveil every little happening in his divine realm just isn't there.

On the flipside Wee Jaz is precisely that paranoid. It takes some commitment to squirrel away the bulk of one's divine power so as to not be much noticed by other powers

[gkathellar]

Can you speculate on what would happen to the Abyssal balance of power if Orcus were to achieve proper godhood? I presume even his disinterest would change things, since it would give Graz'zt and Demogorgon room to maneuver.

[afroakuma]

Can you speculate on what would happen to the Abyssal balance of power if Orcus were to achieve proper godhood?

I thought I'd answered this in a past thread, just had to dig it up.


It would put the other two [Grazz't (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gh1IxhPwMb4&t=47s) and Demogorgon] on high alert, and it would change the dynamics of Lolth's interactions with the rest.


Orcus would have more power on the Material Plane to crush their cults, and more personal power to pressure his foes with.


Lolth has a special role among the preeminent lords of the Abyss, as she's one of their number in addition to being a goddess ("Demon Queen of Spiders"). As the only deity in the "gang," she's got special influence and a unique role in Abyssal politics, one that she'd start to feel crowded out of if there was suddenly a new god in town.

[Jowgen]

Would it be fair to say that the sudden loss of Graz'zt (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gh1IxhPwMb4&t=47s), who has a whole three layers and arguably scores the highest on schemes and manipulations, would throw the abyss into significantly more turmoil than then loss of any other single Demonlord?

Also, any thoughts on why stuff is usually about felling Orcus (happened) or Demogorgon (e.g. Savage Tide), but Graz'zt never gets the BBEG spotlight?

[Khedrac]

Would it be fair to say that the sudden loss of Graz'zt (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gh1IxhPwMb4&t=47s), who has a whole three layers and arguably scores the highest on schemes and manipulations, would throw the abyss into significantly more turmoil than then loss of any other single Demonlord?A partial answer to this is "not initially". Graz'zt is very much a deceiver (although he is not the 'Prince of Deception' - that is Fraz Urb Luu); thus the initial reaction of pretty much all of Graz'zt's enemies, allies and underlings will be "what trick is he pulling now?"
Any move to take advantage of his disappearance will be cautious probes to see what happens, followed by forces they can afford to lose when any trap is sprung; only once they are sure (really, really sure) he is gone will other demon lords use sufficient force to endanger themselves should it go wrong.
Compare this to when one of the less subtle demon lords vanish - instant mobilization from anyone with a stake in what happens.
Yes, they have more to gain when fighting over Graz'zt's territories, but the initial reaction will be much less than for other lesser players who are less likely to be pulling a fast one.

Also, any thoughts on why stuff is usually about felling Orcus (happened) or Demogorgon (e.g. Savage Tide), but Graz'zt never gets the BBEG spotlight?I think a lot of this is because Graz'zt is all about politics and plots within plots (within plots). When characters get embroiled in one of his schemes, Graz'zt won't be the BBEG, he will be using the characters against someone else who will be the BBEG (see Expedition to the Demonweb Pits). Yes, Graz'zt will be trying to reap any rewards for what happens, but he won't be the one the characters need to stop (which is not to say they cannot go up against him, but it won't affect whatever they are trying to avert).
The only time when PCs might go up against Graz'zt directly is when someone else is setting Graz'zt up as the BBEG...

[Khedrac]

Afroakuma,

I was browsing the boards at the Piazza and I came across this question link (http://www.thepiazza.org.uk/bb/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=18031&p=198118#p198118) (full text below) and I thought "now there's an Afro question if I ever saw one".
I've seen different sources claim that The Abyss either has an infinite number of layers...or 666 of them. (I think 666 sounds better, personally, but I'd like to know about anything that documents more than 666 layers too.)

The Abyss (Dungeons & Dragons) article on Wikipedia has a section about the Layers, but 19 of the layer entries have citations to back up what is written.

How many of the different layers have been created in Manual of the Planes (1e, 3e or 4e) or Planescape canon?

How much canon exists to document each layer? Are some layers just names, with no other details? Do some layers have their own "rules of nature"?

Has anyone (maybe Planewalker) ever organised a project to create fanon layers to fill in the gaps...or add more detail to canon layers that lack details?

The Wikipedia article mentions Forgotten Realms and the Abyss. How much detail does Forgotten Realms canon add to The Abyss?

I've seen Dragonlance novels talk about The Abyss as part of a bespoke cosmology, but Wikipedia also says that two of the evil deities from Dragonlance have their own realms in The Abyss. How do people get the Dragonlance stuff to fit in with the Planescape/Manual of the Planes stuff?

What other D&D campaign settings have a relationship with The Abyss in their canon? And what "core" canon would you localise as being the canon of Greyhawk, Nentir Vale and/or Forgotten Realms?
Would you be interested enough to wander across and have a look, or should I re-post some of gems of wisdom back over there?

[Eldan]

There's plenty of layers which never got more than a name, at least. I think the deepest layer is still Kali's domain, which is six hundred forty something, off the top of my head.

As for fitting other settings into Planescape, Planescape just claims that all settings are part of it. Setting specific material that contradicts Planescape is just primitive prime material people misunderstanding how the planes work. Dark Sun had its own planes too, and yet there's still Dark Sun characters in Planescape.

[Tzardok]

The currently deepest layer is Nr. 663: Zionyn, the realm of Obox-Ob, which is overrun with fiendish vermin and insect-like demons. This is the only place in the abyss where you can find cities of ekolids, an obyrith species that is normaly to stupid and feral to build cities or take class levels.

[afroakuma]

Would it be fair to say that the sudden loss of Graz'zt (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gh1IxhPwMb4&t=47s), who has a whole three layers and arguably scores the highest on schemes and manipulations, would throw the abyss into significantly more turmoil than then loss of any other single Demonlord?

No.


Also, any thoughts on why stuff is usually about felling Orcus (happened) or Demogorgon (e.g. Savage Tide), but Graz'zt never gets the BBEG spotlight?

What do you mean "never?" (http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/8/8f/For_Duty_and_Deity.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20070217052800)


Afroakuma,

I was browsing the boards at the Piazza and I came across this question link (http://www.thepiazza.org.uk/bb/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=18031&p=198118#p198118) (full text below) and I thought "now there's an Afro question if I ever saw one".
Would you be interested enough to wander across and have a look, or should I re-post some of gems of wisdom back over there?

I suppose I should.

[gkathellar]

As for fitting other settings into Planescape, Planescape just claims that all settings are part of it. Setting specific material that contradicts Planescape is just primitive prime material people misunderstanding how the planes work. Dark Sun had its own planes too, and yet there's still Dark Sun characters in Planescape.

Athas is specifically integrated into the cosmology, but is cut off from the Outer Planes by internal factors. It's likely that Athasians had access to them in the past, but something about the state of their world now limits them to the Ethereal, Inner, and distinctly Athasian Planes. This isn't limited to the living - the dead are likewise unable to find their way to the Great Wheel.

Eberron's situation is likely similar, as Baker has tacitly stated that it's probably just distant from the main cosmology. Mystara is the other outstanding setting, and fro has a more complex view on that but still holds that it's connected.

[Pronounceable]

I got a hard question for you (it's hard cos there's no correct answer): What is the coolest and/or awesomest bits of fluff in all of DnD in your opinion? I'd think Lady of Pain or ancient Baatorians or any of the other usual suspects is too old for you by now, but maybe not.

Mainly asking this because I'm looking for inspiration for my own little rewriting whole damn thing project over in General and figured anything Afro thinks is cool and/or awesome is bound to be good stuff.

Also a more conventional question: What's up with this Ordial Plane thing I keep running into? It's not an official thing, is it?

[gkathellar]

Also a more conventional question: What's up with this Ordial Plane thing I keep running into? It's not an official thing, is it?

It's a hypothetical transitive plane bridging the divide between the Inner and Outer planes, much as the Astral and Ethereal are to the Prime. There's no evidence that it exists, but a lot of planar scholars really, really want it to, because it could make planar travel easier.

(You could compare it to string theory, except that proof of the ordial's existence would actually be a huge deal with meaningful implications.)

[enderlord99]

What would be the best way to go about integrating/reconciling the Great Wheel of Planescape with the Perception Range of Noisy Tenant? If the best way is "don't" then what's the second-best?

EDIT: Since you've told me before to provide links when talking about things so obscure that even you need to look them up, I might as well say that a major Noisy Tenant resource (which, admittedly, is aimed at Clueless) is the Zonehoppers Guide, which can be found here (http://www.bogleech.com/awfulhospital/library.html). Since Noisy Tenant wasn't created with Planescape compatibility in mind (hence the necessity of my question) it uses the word "abyss" for something very different from the plane (though about equally horrifying to the general interplanar and/or interzonal population.) It also uses "layer" to mean something that's different-ish to a planar layer.

[Eldan]

Also a more conventional question: What's up with this Ordial Plane thing I keep running into? It's not an official thing, is it?

In Planescape, the Ethereal Plane connects the Inner Planes and Material Plane. The Astral Plane connects the Material Plane and the Outer Planes.

Now, since the Rule of Three is generally strong and reliable on the planes, people argue that there must be a third Transitive Plane, one that connects the Inner and Outer Planes directly.

If such a plane exists, no one has reliably found it and returned. There are no known doors leading there in Sigil, no one has planeshifted there and back, there don't seem to be any kind of planar overlap zones or natural pathways, no oracle who can say anything about it.

So, it remains very theoretical.

[afroakuma]

I got a hard question for you (it's hard cos there's no correct answer): What is the coolest and/or awesomest bits of fluff in all of DnD in your opinion?

Couldn't tell you.


Mainly asking this because I'm looking for inspiration for my own little rewriting whole damn thing project over in General and figured anything Afro thinks is cool and/or awesome is bound to be good stuff.

Hm? If you need a particular plot idea I'm more than happy to help, I recently armed someone with a whole campaign anchor. By going to get toast and then returning. Brain good like that.


What would be the best way to go about integrating/reconciling the Great Wheel of Planescape with the Perception Range of Noisy Tenant?

There is no way this has any bearing on me whatsoever.

[JoeyTheNeko]

huzzah afro is back, yay.

so what exactly is a mythal? I read about them in forgotten realms, but seem to have missed what they actually were.

[Eldan]

In rules terms, a special epic spell available only to the Netherese, ancient elven High Mages and a few other supremely powerful spellcasting civilizations. What they do is apply some magical effect to a large area. Anything from changing the weather to giving magic to everyone in an area to suppressing entire schools of spells.

If you see a place name starting with "Myth" in the Realms, it probably had a mythal at some point. Most famously probably Myth Drannor.

[hamishspence]

According to Lost Empires of Faerun, the Netherese tended not to use mythals - instead creating the "mythallars" - artifacts that worked a little differently.

[Tzardok]

With a mythallar being an artefact that projects a mythal over its suroundings. That's how the Netherese made most of their flying cities.
I don't know wether elven mythals were also created by mythallars.

[hamishspence]

The two are described differently though. It may be a case of "mythallar" being a name given to them by the elves - who wanted a term that would approximate their own "mythal" despite their different mechanisms.

(The word "mythal" seems to have been applied years/centuries after the event, in some cases - possibly named after the creator of the Myth Drannor mythal - Mythanator - but he was far from the first to make them).

Elven mythals (and the Silverymoon mythal) are created by a large number of casters working together, contributing spell slots (and if necessary, their own lives).

It's not clear how mythallar artifacts are created.

A mythallar's schtick is creating "quasi-magical items" like flying enclaves:

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Mythallar

A mythal's schtick is boosting spells, weakening other spells, and various warding and protection effects:

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Mythal

[weckar]

I don't get how the layers of Carseri work, spatially. Many are described as having seas or mountains or other large land-covering features, yet the whole plane is apparently a layered space of spheres. I also can't really find any artisitic depictions.

[gkathellar]

The big thing about mythals is that they were doable for a while in FR's history, but are now, IIRC, on Mystra's ban list because of shenanigans. They presently serve to make ruined elven cities more interesting as adventure locations.

On that note: could Shar theoretically allow a Wizard to create a mythal with the shadow weave?

[afroakuma]

I don't get how the layers of Carseri work, spatially. Many are described as having seas or mountains or other large land-covering features, yet the whole plane is apparently a layered space of spheres. I also can't really find any artisitic depictions.

Well, I mean, the plane you live on has spheres. They're extremely large and incredibly distant, but it's the same idea. Basically each of Carceri's layers consists of strings of planetoids in close proximity, such that one can easily see them trailing off into the distance in the skies. Buildings, seas, rivers, forests, mountains etc. all exist on the surface of these planetoids. There are fewer spheres on lower layers, and those that exist tend to be increasingly remote from one another.

Remember that a "layer" is not literally beneath the surface of another, in the sense that the spheres of Cathrys aren't nested within the spheres of Othrys and so forth. When you descend to a deeper layer, you're on the surface (presumably) of a totally different planetoid in a cluster of totally different planetoids, with the empty void of Carceri above you, and no amount of searching across the same layer would find the ones you had been on from a higher layer.

[hamishspence]

The big thing about mythals is that they were doable for a while in FR's history, but are now, IIRC, on Mystra's ban list because of shenanigans.

Actually that's Spells Above 9th Level - due to Karsus's stunt.

In theory, a mythal could be built in the present-day - with the knowledge and the resources, at least.

The Silverymoon Wards mythal, for example, was created over a century after the fall of Myth Drannor.


On that note: could Shar theoretically allow a Wizard to create a mythal with the shadow weave?

Seems plausible. And a shadow weave wizard (Galaeron Nihmehu) was able to contribute to the spell restoring the damaged Evereska mythal, in book 3 of the Summoning trilogy by Troy Denning.

[afroakuma]

The big thing about mythals is that they were doable for a while in FR's history, but are now, IIRC, on Mystra's ban list because of shenanigans.

Actually, they can be created using epic magic, which Mystra's ban specifically does not cover.


On that note: could Shar theoretically allow a Wizard to create a mythal with the shadow weave?

Yes; it should be noted, however, that a Shadow Weave mythal will be very slightly weaker than a normal one. As well, making an anchored Shadow Weave mythal may be inadvisable considering the clandestine and furtive nature of Shar's alternate magic source and the active efforts of Mystra's faithful to undermine and weaken it.

[inuyasha]

I'm so glad to see this has returned, this has provided some amazing reading material.

I'm finally getting the chance to run a planescape campaign, and I've figured out how I'm going to do it.

My current Pathfinder party (in a universe with the standard Great Wheel, which I prefer) was in the prime, then Ravenloft for story reasons. Originally I had planned for them to stay there, but the party and I are growing burned out on Ravenloft, which has given me the idea for changing it to a Planescape game.

I've come up with a portal they're going to find, a one-way portal to Sigil that leads to a dark alley called Wickway, which is a place I've homebrewed for the lower ward where some go to place a candle if someone they know has stumbled into Ravenloft, never to return. The candles never go out, and there always seems to be space for one more candle.

That aside, what do you think is the best way to introduce the party to sigil, especially if they're the type who prefer role-playing and exploration to brutal combat? I've planned for them to meet an excommunicated Githzerai monk near Wickway, who could serve as a guide of sorts, or at the very least a glimpse at what some people are like in the planes. Beyond that, I'm just seeing too much cool stuff to nail down a proper introduction.

[JoeyTheNeko]

so which exemplars, have the ability to revive the dead? I am told it's s restricted ability among the archeons. what other races have that power and possible restrictions on it's use?

[Jowgen]

I'm trying to gain a better understanding of plane-scape, and I was hoping you'd be willing to round-out my picture:

The planescape setting includes all the different D&D setting worlds from Athas to Kyrnn; each in their own Crystal Sphere floating through the Phlogiston. They all "share" the same outer/inner/transitive planes. Magic, physics and everything else within a crystal sphere works the way that sphere's over-deity wants it to, with regular deities holding some sway over whatever their portfolio is (e.g. Mystra deciding how magic works on Faerun), but ultimately the overdeity can redefine the rules as it sees fit.

My first question is whether you'd be willing to give an overview of the most signifificant differences in the known sphere's inner workings, and how they affect non-natives who visit from other planes/spheres? I imagine Athas is a rather significant "planar oddity", with its "tight borders" seriously messed up magic system, but things like the existence/function of the weave on Faerun could also have some rather significant impacts?

Relating to that, I was wondering to what degree mortals native to a certain sphere are tied to it. Is there anything preventing a mortal from using basic planar-travel magics to jump from sphere A to B? Addendum to that, is there a rule against direct portals linking spheres to each other? And lastly, does anything weird happen to your soul if you die on a foreign sphere where your God doesn't exist?

Then in regards to the map of the spheres, races like the Illithids, Neogi and Clockwork Horros make it their business to go around conquering spheres; while extraplanar powers like Lolth have been known to draw entire worlds into their off-plane domains after conquering. Is there a any indication of what the "sphere's conquered scorecard" looks like for these guys? Also, what's the reason why the overdeities of individual spheres let this stuff slide?

Finally, do you have a favorite crystal sphere?

[Tzardok]

The planescape setting includes all the different D&D setting worlds from Athas to Kyrnn; each in their own Crystal Sphere floating through the Phlogiston. They all "share" the same outer/inner/transitive planes. Magic, physics and everything else within a crystal sphere works the way that sphere's over-deity wants it to, with regular deities holding some sway over whatever their portfolio is (e.g. Mystra deciding how magic works on Faerun), but ultimately the overdeity can redefine the rules as it sees fit.


Overdeities are less about the way magic and science works and more about the way divine things work. They can throw out a deity, impose restrictions on them or even make things easier for them. For example, before the time of troubles Ao allowed his "tenants" to gain power from lip service in addition to true faith. Additonally, not every crystal sphere has an overdeity, but you as a mortal will never know which is which, because of the tendence of overdeities to pull the strings behind the scenes and to never act overt. (The time of troubles being the great exception and even then, knowledge about Ao is being forgotten at an unusal speed.)


My first question is whether you'd be willing to give an overview of the most signifificant differences in the known sphere's inner workings, and how they affect non-natives who visit from other planes/spheres? I imagine Athas is a rather significant "planar oddity", with its "tight borders" seriously messed up magic system, but things like the existence/function of the weave on Faerun could also have some rather significant impacts?


Similar questions have been asked in earlier threads and the answer usually boils down to "the deities of a sphere usually do their best to ensure that sphere travellers aren't inconvenienced by different laws of magic." For example, the same gestures a Realms arcanist uses for casting will work to access the magic of Oerth and the other way round. It's some kind of common courtesy for deities of magic: I don't screw with your servants on my world, you don't screw with my servants on your world.


Is there anything preventing a mortal from using basic planar-travel magics to jump from sphere A to B? Addendum to that, is there a rule against direct portals linking spheres to each other?

The Phlogiston blocks any kind of planar access. If you want to hop from sphere to sphere with "Planeshift", you need to make a detour over a different plane.


And lastly, does anything weird happen to your soul if you die on a foreign sphere where your God doesn't exist?

Unless the sphere does keep you from going to the afterlife in general (looking at you, Athas), then nope.



Also, what's the reason why the overdeities of individual spheres let this stuff slide?

Overdeities work in mysterious ways. :smalltongue:
But seriously, with the exception of Lolth I'm not quite sure why an overdeity would care. And Lolth's "score", as you call it, isn't that great (and only includes single planets. no known force can affect crystal spheres besides opening gates into and out of them).

So, everything looks in order. I await the verdict.

[Bronk]

Thanks for the reply and the ideas earlier!


Actually, they can be created using epic magic, which Mystra's ban specifically does not cover.

Yes; it should be noted, however, that a Shadow Weave mythal will be very slightly weaker than a normal one. As well, making an anchored Shadow Weave mythal may be inadvisable considering the clandestine and furtive nature of Shar's alternate magic source and the active efforts of Mystra's faithful to undermine and weaken it.

If I'm remembering correctly, I think the mythals that preceded Myth Drannor were all created using Elven High Magic, with that last one made using a mixture of High Magic and arcane magic. High magic was a... I think it was a gift to worthy elves or to the elves as a whole from the Seldarine.

How does Elven High Magic stack up against Epic magic? Was it divine or arcane in nature, and why did the Seldarine have access to it in the first place? Is it something that is even still around in 3.5? I think they hinted about that in 'The Last Mythal' novel series, at least showing that the timeline was unbroken for that kind of elven lore, although I think the series was more concerned about portals.



The Phlogiston blocks any kind of planar access. If you want to hop from sphere to sphere with "Planeshift", you need to make a detour over a different plane.


Speaking of portals, that's exactly how they operate, at least in 3.5, by connecting through the astral... as a teleport spell, but one that can reach other planes anyway.

[afroakuma]

That aside, what do you think is the best way to introduce the party to sigil, especially if they're the type who prefer role-playing and exploration to brutal combat?

Emerging into something like the Hive Ward, where it's still broadly similar to the slums of a Material Plane city, only to see some strange and bizarre extraplanar beast... chatting gamely with an elf and a dwarf. Running into factions, philosophy, seeing someone vanish through an archway and nobody around bats an eye... Mainly it's what not to do: no Lady of Pain. She really shouldn't appear at all; I'd even omit her from dialogue unless it's for some reason necessary, as it may be misintepreted.


so which exemplars, have the ability to revive the dead?

Anyone with wish as a spell-like ability, owl archons, throne archons, ghaele eladrin, various modron hierarchs... if it's in their statblock, they possess the capacity to do so. Most of them won't without some particular reason, of course.


The planescape setting includes all the different D&D setting worlds from Athas to Kyrnn; each in their own Crystal Sphere floating through the Phlogiston. They all "share" the same outer/inner/transitive planes. Magic, physics and everything else within a crystal sphere works the way that sphere's over-deity wants it to, with regular deities holding some sway over whatever their portfolio is (e.g. Mystra deciding how magic works on Faerun), but ultimately the overdeity can redefine the rules as it sees fit.

So far so good.


My first question is whether you'd be willing to give an overview of the most signifificant differences in the known sphere's inner workings, and how they affect non-natives who visit from other planes/spheres?

That's a rather involved question; look to any particular campaign setting, and you'll see a lot of different particulars tied to it. Athas, as you noted, is an obvious example - normal magic does not function without tapping into lifeforce to power it (defiling). Krynnspace is a sphere in which psionics do not function. For the most part, sphere to sphere there won't be vast differences. Is there anything specific you were looking for?


Is there anything preventing a mortal from using basic planar-travel magics to jump from sphere A to B?

Not particularly.


Addendum to that, is there a rule against direct portals linking spheres to each other?

A rule? No, but many gods and pantheons do not like that kind of thing. Consider how uncommon portals between the Prime and the planes are.


And lastly, does anything weird happen to your soul if you die on a foreign sphere where your God doesn't exist?

As long as it has regular Astral links, no. So maybe don't travel to Athas.


Then in regards to the map of the spheres, races like the Illithids, Neogi and Clockwork Horros make it their business to go around conquering spheres; while extraplanar powers like Lolth have been known to draw entire worlds into their off-plane domains after conquering. Is there a any indication of what the "sphere's conquered scorecard" looks like for these guys?

Numerically, no, but you can see regions of the map where their presence is, shall we say, suggestive.


Also, what's the reason why the overdeities of individual spheres let this stuff slide?

Why wouldn't they? Assuming that particular sphere has an overdeity; we have no proof that one exists for every sphere, or even for the majority, only vague assumptions.


Finally, do you have a favorite crystal sphere?

Nope.


Thanks for the reply and the ideas earlier!

No problem.


How does Elven High Magic stack up against Epic magic?

They appear to be one and the same.


Was it divine or arcane in nature

As described, arcane, with some qualities and concerns normally associated with the divine (healing, restoration of nature) possible.


and why did the Seldarine have access to it in the first place?

Why not? It's a form of magic, and their pantheon is one heavily tied to magic and the magical arts.


Is it something that is even still around in 3.5?

Epic spellcasting, yes.

[Jowgen]

That's a rather involved question; look to any particular campaign setting, and you'll see a lot of different particulars tied to it. Athas, as you noted, is an obvious example - normal magic does not function without tapping into lifeforce to power it (defiling). Krynnspace is a sphere in which psionics do not function. For the most part, sphere to sphere there won't be vast differences. Is there anything specific you were looking for?

I suppose my aim is to get an idea of the spectrum of possible "settings" a given crystal sphere can have, including any parameters that are just hard-wired. Basically stuff of the "could Ao create a stone so heavy even they couldn't lift it?" variety.

My thoughts at this point are that overdeities may have massive sandbox-creation options in their spheres, but they can't make stuff that couldn't possible exist on the other planes. There needs to be at least basic compatibility, as to avoid a massive far-realm-esque "glitch" when something leaves the sphere. So, the possible range of things that can "be" in a sphere is limited by the existing range of what exists on the outer/inner/transitive planes. For example, Kyrnn can take away the basis for psionics, but if the basis for psionics didn't exist on another plane first then it couldn't just whip them up.

Another possible limitation that I'm not too sure about is that any given sphere should need to adhere to certain balance of basic building-blocks (e.g. alignments, elements, etc.). This is based on my very limited understanding of the rule that any large locald that becomes too strongly aligned "falls" into the plane matching that alignment. For example, if an overdeity creates it's sphere in the exact image of baator or the NEP, then the worlds within that sphere would just slip right into those planes. Please correct me here.

Lastly, my theory is that a) the exact nature of these universal constants/parameters is what the Catalogues of Enlightenment on Mechanus are working towards ultimately uncovering, and b) the "control panel" or BIOS for them exists within Sigil; which is exactly what Vecna tried to high-jack in his big stunt. On that last one, I'd possibly even speculate that the Serpent has some sort of connection to the "master control panel", which is how it knew about it and was able to impart the knowledge of how to hack it onto Vecna.

[afroakuma]

I suppose my aim is to get an idea of the spectrum of possible "settings" a given crystal sphere can have

Look through published settings.


Another possible limitation that I'm not too sure about is that any given sphere should need to adhere to certain balance of basic building-blocks (e.g. alignments, elements, etc.). This is based on my very limited understanding of the rule that any large locald that becomes too strongly aligned "falls" into the plane matching that alignment.

That's wrong. Unless there's some very powerful open connection nearby already and it's not particularly stable, that can't happen. It happens to the gate-towns of the Outlands because they're part of a system of belief and anchored to massive, permanent portals. The Prime is nowhere near that volatile.

[ksbsnowowl]

I posed these questions to the board last year when there was not an active afroakuma thread, and would like your insights, if possible.

First:
I read constantly (in 3e Manual of the Planes, 2e Planescape material) that when the clashing cubes of Acheron collide, it seems that the cubes collide flat-face to flat-face, destroying EVERYTHING on the overlapping flat faces of the cubes. There is one indication of such in the 3.0 Manual of the Planes (quoted below), but there are many more inferences to it in the 2e Planescape material as well. Still, it is never stated flat out, as I just did in this paragraph. (Though see the quote about Clangor and Nishrek, which also alludes to it).


The cubes that make up each of the four layers of Acheron are pitted and scarred with cracks and dents from their many collisions and craters from their many battles. On the orderly plane of Acheron, the cubes always rust or fracture along straight lines and at right angles.
...
The cubes vary [in size]. The smallest cubes are usually the oldest, having been reduced to their present size by eons of collisions.
...
Travelers in Avalas and Thuldanin must be wary of collisions between the cubes, because everything between the two cubes at impact is crushed into nothingness. Cubes bound for collision are visible a day or two in advance of impact, providing enough warning for evacuation.

Are collisions between cubes only ever face-to-face? And as such, any craters would be square and flat-bottomed?

Or can a corner collide with a cube-face, creating a triangular crater with three sloping crater-faces leading down to an inverted "point" at the bottom of the crater?

Second:
The 3.0 MotP has some entries about Clangor and Nishrek, housing the ever-warring goblin and orc armies, as well as the goblin deity Maglubiyet, and the Orc pantheon, including Gruumsh. It also has this side-bar, discussing how (in 2e) the two realms were opposite faces of the same cube, but are no longer:


The realms of Clangor and Nishrek were once a single cube, but the opposing deities of each realm finally managed to separate their realms into two wholly separate cubes. Though they are separated, enmity between the goblins of Clangor and the orcs of Nishrek is still great. Though the rival deities can prevent an entire cube face from being crushed by an opposing cube sent hurling through the void, that doesn’t stop either side from trying. Most battles are now fought when one side manages to land an invasion force on an opposing cube.

Combining this information with that from the earlier quotes, discussing the cubes always fracturing in straight lines at right angles, and seemingly as perfect cubes* (as it mentions the smallest cubes are the oldest, having been fractured many times over the eons), how can a formerly-single cube have fractured into two cubes? It could have fractured into two "flattened" "cubes" (basically 3-dimentional "rectangles"), but that seems to conflict with the fact that, at least in the first layer of Acheron, all the "cubes" actually ARE cubes* (get to the third layer of Acheron, and other shapes exist in number). Thus, when a large cube fractures, it must fracture into 8 smaller cubes (or smaller - think Rubix Cube breaking apart).

So, how would you rectify this information? Formerly a single cube, but now two "cubes?"

There are two possible answers. The two realms of Clangor and Nishrek were not actually on opposing faces, but were on opposing corners, and when the cube was divided, it became 8 smaller cubes, with Clangor inhabiting one of the 8, and Nishrek another of the 8. The other six sections have floated off to wherever else in the plane.

The other option is that the two realms really were on opposite faces, and when the cube broke, each deity/race took control of up to 4 of them. I envision this as the goblins holding 4 cubes, which are tethered together, in a loose arrangement, almost like ice cubes oriented but separated in an ice tray, with chains and bridges connecting them, and preventing them from drifting apart. Almost like tethering four rafts or innertubes together for a lazy float trip

Thoughts?

*
* Geometric shapes other than cubes exist, though they are rare (except on Tintibulus, the third layer).

Lastly, the portal from Rigus the PC's are expected to use to arrive in Acheron in Lord of the Iron Fortress is supposed to deposit them on the "Battle Cube." Reading through 2e material, I see that this was the name of the cube which contained Clangor and Nishrek. Also, any portals on that cube are supposed to be "heavily guarded."

Which force should be lucky enough to now control the portal, the goblins, or the orcs?
And how "heavily guarded" should it be when 15th level PC's pop through from Rigus?

[Tzardok]

Combining this information with that from the earlier quotes, discussing the cubes always fracturing in straight lines at right angles, and seemingly as perfect cubes* (as it mentions the smallest cubes are the oldest, having been fractured many times over the eons), how can a formerly-single cube have fractured into two cubes? It could have fractured into two "flattened" "cubes" (basically 3-dimentional "rectangles"), but that seems to conflict with the fact that, at least in the first layer of Acheron, all the "cubes" actually ARE cubes* (get to the third layer of Acheron, and other shapes exist in number). Thus, when a large cube fractures, it must fracture into 8 smaller cubes (or smaller - think Rubix Cube breaking apart).

So, how would you rectify this information? Formerly a single cube, but now two "cubes?"

There are two possible answers. The two realms of Clangor and Nishrek were not actually on opposing faces, but were on opposing corners, and when the cube was divided, it became 8 smaller cubes, with Clangor inhabiting one of the 8, and Nishrek another of the 8. The other six sections have floated off to wherever else in the plane.

The other option is that the two realms really were on opposite faces, and when the cube broke, each deity/race took control of up to 4 of them. I envision this as the goblins holding 4 cubes, which are tethered together, in a loose arrangement, almost like ice cubes oriented but separated in an ice tray, with chains and bridges connecting them, and preventing them from drifting apart. Almost like tethering four rafts or innertubes together for a lazy float trip

Thoughts?


To answer this question let me quote Afro from the 6th thread:


As noted above, it's a property of the Outer Planes that gross distances don't really matter. Let's assume for the sake of argument that the distance between the Spire and the Hinterlands is 5 miles in every direction. Mathematically speaking, we should expect the habitable area of the Outlands to be, at maximum, 78.54 square miles. But on the books we have... what's this? 150 square miles of documented locations! And what's that place on the horizon that doesn't look like anything on record...?

The Outer Planes are realms of belief; they don't conform to any need for fixed areas to exist. While certain spatial relationships are more stable than others, it's far more likely that on the Outer Planes the distance between Strangeland and Otherplace is literally "two days' travel" than that it is any fixed distance in miles or kilometres or linear tessipates or foot-cubits. While there is a fixed distance between the gate-towns and the Spire or the gate-towns and the Hinterlands, all that area in between is whatever it needs to be for whoever is traveling.


Some few gods do in fact live on private little islands in the void, but the vast majority reside on one of the mounts. While the land has an "edge," it is still a component of an infinite plane; Khalas, Chamada, Mungoth and Krangath are all circumferentially infinite, so it's not really all that crowded. How does that even work? Outer Planes.

Acheron works the same way. Yes, the cube broke in two. Now you have two cubes with halve the volume... or halve the surface area... or maybe even two cubes as big the cube before. Heck, maybe the cubes are now bigger than before! How does it work? Outer Planes.

[Coidzor]

What major planar figure or power would most be inconvenienced or get most enraged by suddenly having an absolutely absurdly large amount of Kender dumped on top of them or popping out of the woodwork in their base of operations?

[Eldan]

All of them?

Let's see. Kender are chaotic, so I'd guess someone lawful. Asmodeus would certainly hate it. As would, I imagine, Primus. Zaphkiel... he's on the highest layer of Celestia, so who knows.

They also steal, so someone greedy, with a lot of wealth. A dragon god, maybe, or Hades. I can't off-hand think of a lawful god of wealth or trade.

[afroakuma]

Are collisions between cubes only ever face-to-face? And as such, any craters would be square and flat-bottomed?

I'm not aware offhand of anything that strictly indicates cubes must collide face-to-face; I would imagine that some amount of angular collisions do happen, since smaller cubes could conceivably gain spin for a time from a particularly powerful blow. Craters aren't necessarily perfect squares, since it would depend on structural integrity on the contact faces - an undermined section of face may collapse when smashed, for example.


Combining this information with that from the earlier quotes, discussing the cubes always fracturing in straight lines at right angles, and seemingly as perfect cubes* (as it mentions the smallest cubes are the oldest, having been fractured many times over the eons), how can a formerly-single cube have fractured into two cubes?

Outer Planes.

To be specific, "cube" is a general term for Acheron's metal skybergs, no matter what their configuration. There are rectangular prism "cubes" out there in the void. Over time, "cubes" on Avalas and Thuldanin trend toward becoming actual cubes, whether helped along by a local pantheon or just split over and over by collisions. There is a certain order to Acheron, after all, a pattern and rhythm seated in its lawful nature. It shouldn't be surprising that the plane can auto-correct. At least at the highest layer. Thuldanin is crumbly, Tintibulus is bizarre, and Ocanthus is a frozen hellscape in a vast black void.


Lastly, the portal from Rigus the PC's are expected to use to arrive in Acheron in Lord of the Iron Fortress is supposed to deposit them on the "Battle Cube." Reading through 2e material, I see that this was the name of the cube which contained Clangor and Nishrek. Also, any portals on that cube are supposed to be "heavily guarded."

As Clangor and Nishrek are now on independent cubes, the current Battle Cube is likely a new destination for the gate, a third cube that the goblins and orcs fight over. As such, either force (or both) could have guards near the gate - or they may deem it a strategic hazard not worth planning around and have oriented their battle to avoid it. Up to you.

[Evolved Shrimp]

The Epic Level Handbook describes an epic-level assassin organization, the Garotte. Their unique shtick is that their clients do not come back (except presumably if they have a stasis clone or equivalent contingent magic acting immediately upon their demise), which they guarantee through the use of the cape of their leader, the leShay Anifer Unglum. That cape can dispatch bodies to “a void dimension”, putting them “beyond even the recall of greater gods”.

Is this void dimension real (i.e., does it exist in afrocanon) or is it just made up by the ELH writers to give the Garotte something that allows them to pass as “epic”?

If it is real, is anything else known about it (or can be speculated)?

[atnorman]

So, once again I'm here to disrupt the serenity of a thread with Eberron/Planescape questions.


If enough people started worshipping a dead power, would the dead power be revived? Would a totally new one emerge?

You answered yes to this. My question is then something to the effect of "what if their body was destroyed by other Gods and so you actually have chunks of this deity's body floating around?" Or, put another way, is there any way to kill a God so they can't come back in this way? Could an overdeity do so?

Next up, let's say that the Gods of a particular sphere are sort of locked out of the rest of the multiverse. And then let's say something changes and this pantheon suddenly appears. That wouldn't make too much of an impact, right? They're limited to a single sphere in this description, so can't be super powerful.

On a related note, how would many of the major players deal with the sudden appearance of extraplanar oddities from Eberron not otherwise present, such as Quori or Daelkyr? While comparatively small in number to Devils etc, they're not exactly weak either, so may be seen as possible threats in the future if not now, I dunno.

Similarly, how to place Daelkyr into things? Far Realm I'd assume.

And finally Baker has said that Overlords are in a sense anthropomorphic personifications of the things they represent to a certain extent. So Katashka embodies the fear of death, etc. He's also stated that it's at least in theory possible to usurp them and replace them by other incarnate spirits. Would then the Overlords be similar in kind to Exemplars? And if they were released from prison not just in shardspace but over all of the multiverse what sort of ramifications might these beings have?

[VisitingDaGulag]

Hey afroakuma, its good to see you're still able to post here. I've searched all previous threads for "creche," but found no hits.

Is there any additional information about the creche-forges of Mechanus? Like their process for making or controlling inevitables or know even how the Hub of Elders keeps tabs on inevitables to know when to make a new version? There seems to be very little information on them. Any extra sources anyone has beyond MotP129, EE86 & that dragon magazine with the ecology of the inevitables would be appreciated.

[enderlord99]

Hey afroakuma, its good to see you're still able to post here. I've searched all previous threads for "creche," but found no hits.

Is there any additional information about the creche-forges of Mechanus? Like their process for making or controlling inevitables or know even how the Hub of Elders keeps tabs on inevitables to know when to make a new version? There seems to be very little information on them. Any extra sources anyone has beyond MotP129, EE86 & that dragon magazine with the ecology of the inevitables would be appreciated.

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=5042438&postcount=68)'s some relevant homebrew, though I'm sure you want more.

[afroakuma]

Is this void dimension real (i.e., does it exist in afrocanon) or is it just made up by the ELH writers to give the Garotte something that allows them to pass as “epic”?

It's kind of silly, since the description suggests a portal of some sort, and therefore a theoretical destination one could probe. Notwithstanding that, there would still be ways for the truly dedicated to undo the deed (time travel, as risky as it is, immediately springs to mind). The pitch of an assassins' guild that has a totally permanent 100% ultimate doom weapon at their disposal and counts "lesser gods" among their targets (per the book itself) while also keeping ties with major religions... I mean, come on, the gods are not going to sit still for that sort of nonsense, let alone for it to grow into a body 5500 strong and counting.

Tl;dr you wanted my personal opinion? In my opinion, it's very stupid.


So, once again I'm here to disrupt the serenity of a thread with Eberron/Planescape questions.

Right, because I have so much serenity to spare.


My question is then something to the effect of "what if their body was destroyed by other Gods and so you actually have chunks of this deity's body floating around?"

Well, living deities aren't supposed to trespass among the dead ones; Guardian's rules. Regardless, Not relevant.


Or, put another way, is there any way to kill a God so they can't come back in this way?

Ech... depends on what we mean by "come back." Worship and belief can, at a certain scale, create a reasonable facsimile wholecloth. If you don't want a god to come back, generally speaking, the most important step is erasing their worship, or else causing it to be diverted (the Shar Special). There has been a recorded way to kill gods Very Dead Indeed, though we've seen at least one entity murdered in this fashion continue to exist as a vestige, and no particular evidence to say that those gods couldn't also come back.

Let's look elsewhere, then... the One in the Void was having the divine essence within its corpse pillaged over a vast timespan; arguably that would count, though it should be noted that no record exists of the One in the Void continuing to receive even liminal worship. Under these circumstances... well, it's the kind of thing where I think the door is conceivably left open for some method, complicated though it would be, but certainly nothing convenient.


Could an overdeity do so?

We've never seen an overdeity do anything of the kind, and what limited documentation exists on their actions and role suggests their mandate involves not doing so. Especially given multi-sphere powers exist; it wouldn't make sense for Ao to be able to kill Tyr and have him deleted from the Asgardian pantheon at the same time.


Next up, let's say that the Gods of a particular sphere are sort of locked out of the rest of the multiverse. And then let's say something changes and this pantheon suddenly appears. That wouldn't make too much of an impact, right? They're limited to a single sphere in this description, so can't be super powerful.

They're a whole faction of new and internally-ordered players who have just appeared on the cosmic stage; it will be noted, and they'll be approached and asked to make the usual agreements between the pantheons - no rampant targeting of other gods' priests, no claiming of the unborn, etc. etc. see earlier threads.


On a related note, how would many of the major players deal with the sudden appearance of extraplanar oddities from Eberron not otherwise present, such as Quori or Daelkyr?

I'd imagine Quori or something like them already exist via the Region of Dreams and various other observed phenomena - Demiplane of Nightmares, for example. If we assume daelkyr are Far Realm creatures, then a significant incursion by them would twig whatever local high muckymucks need to pay attention to such things, but the Far Realm doesn't care for the Great Wheel any more than the Great Wheel cares for the Far Realm.


Hey afroakuma, its good to see you're still able to post here.

Why wouldn't I be? :smallconfused:


I've searched all previous threads for "creche," but found no hits.

Did you put the little hat on it? :smalltongue:


Any extra sources anyone has beyond MotP129, EE86 & that dragon magazine with the ecology of the inevitables would be appreciated.

Fiend Folio has the other two worth mentioning, and there may be something in the Planar Handbook that I'm not remembering (it's very late), but I'm afraid by and large what you've got is what there is. I may do a proper check later in the week if I can remember.

[Svata]

Photobucket taking away Afro's avatar is incredibly distracting and disorienting. Saw someone answering Q's without the avi, and was like, "hey, this is AFROAKUMA'S Planar Questions thread."

[Evolved Shrimp]

Tl;dr you wanted my personal opinion? In my opinion, it's very stupid.

I suspected as much – thanks for explaining the issues with the concept.

[afroakuma]

So it looks like I'll be away for the next several days. Feel free to keep the thread alive for discussion, or let it sink if no one's interested.

[Postmodernist]

Hey all,

I asked a quick question over here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?532372-Fun-gear-for-Planar-Pirate), and unseenmage suggested that I consult the wisdom of this board. Any suggestions you might have would be appreciated!

[Naanomi]

Woah, how did I miss this return?! Glad to see a return, I'll try to avoid smite-worthy questions

Has there been more formal exploration of the owners of the Barrier Peaks ship?

If I were trying to line up Immortals with the more traditional view of Powers (a bad idea already I know), would AO line up as a Hierarch, or something even higher on the Divine-Totem Pole?

[Khedrac]

If I were trying to line up Immortals with the more traditional view of Powers (a bad idea already I know), would AO line up as a Hierarch, or something even higher on the Divine-Totem Pole?
IMO the over-deities have to be a lot higher than a Hierach. The Hierach Immortals and simply the top end of the Immortals power scale, they don't get any special abilities - they just have more power and experience than their fellows. Now consider what we know of AO, in the Time of Troubles he is able to kick all of the deities out of their home planes and onto Toril, stripping them of most of their capabilities in the process; now regardless of how much work and pre-planning it took to do this, that's not something within the capabilities of any other deity (nor for that matter can a hierach evict an immortal from it's home plane going by Mystara rules). To do this any other deity/immortal would somehow trick/lure them out of their own planes or individually enter each plane and use brute force. In Mystaran terms I would say that Ao is a better match for an Great Old One, but it's a very different structure of Great Old Ones than the glimpses we get of the Mystaran set-up (e.g. one GOO/OD per Crystal Sphere with responsibility for encouranging the growth - spiritual as well as physical - of the deities of their worlds).
Also, Ao altered the underlying principles by which deities (immortals) operate within Realmspace - their power is now directly tied to their worhsippers; if Ao was just a more powerful immortal (deity) this would affect him too, which, even though he now does accept a few worshippers, it would cripple his own power-base (as the one thing the deities don't do is worship him).

OK all that said, here's a counter-position. Yes Ao is basically a more powerful deity (i.e. hierarch immortal), however he has been granted extra abilities by the one he serves/worships (akin to mortal clerics and spells etc.).

[Tzardok]

Well, if nobody is going to ask something, I'm going to do it.

Can somebody explain Temporal Prime to me? The only thing I know is "It's some 'place' where you can see the personal time lines of things and which you can use to time travel. And Chronomancers use it." I am looking for something a little bit more detailed.

[Darth Ultron]

If you can find it, you want the 0ld 2E book: Chronmancer. It should be easy enough to find on sites like EBay.

The basic way it handles time travel is that it involves moving to the demi-plane of time (which looks a bit like the astral plane, but contains lots of lifelines all going in the same direction), travelling upstream or downstream in it, and then returning to the prime plane at your new position. This means you can travel to the past or future.

The writers don't seem to have gone into the ramifications of time travel too deeply, so if you're looking for complex what-if scenarios to be answered then you'll have to make it up yourself. What they do say is:

*Altering the past causes the lifelines at that point to become turbulent as they rearrange themselves into a new future - which takes "time" to happen. During this time, other time travellers can see the turbulence and turn up to see what is causing it. So unless it's only a minor change you can expect lots of other interested parties (including big powerful NPCs or even gods of course) to show up and fight you for it if they care about the change you're making.

*History changes always rearrange themselves to cause minimal change. So killing Hitler doesn't stop World War 2; it just means someone else is in charge of the Nazis.

*There can't ever be more than one of you in existence at the same time. So you're limited to travelling to the future or before your birth. If you travel to the near future and back (e.g. a week ahead), you'd better make sure you then skip that part of the future instead of trying to also live through it the slow way or you'll get kicked out into the demi-plane of time when you approach that period. This stops most short term shenanigans. Trying to deliberately make paradoxes form has a similar effect.

*Trying to make small changes that have a big future effect (e.g. going back in time and leaving a message for your future self, which has an insignificant change at the point you do it - the mere presence of the message doesn't change much - but which will change the future when you receive the message in a big way) is possible, but the inertia mentioned in point 2 will almost certainly minimise the change by contriving to get the message lost before you receive it.



As you can see, despite being a time travel supplement it's pretty much designed to minimise (or allow the DM to minimise) the amount of things you can actually achieve using time travel. You can't do anything short term because of the limits about being in two places at once, and you can't do anything significant long term either because either the universe or some NPC will minimise/undo it.

The book also contains a "Chronomancer" class, who is a spell caster that has lots of time related spells (including the ones to let them travel to the demi-plane of time and back), and to be honest these specific spells which do specific but small scale time related things are more useful and interesting than the blunt-instrument of time travel itself.

And, of course, there's an NPC organisation devoted to looking after the timestream and stopping people from messing it up, and the obligatory time related monsters.

There's also a big DM section about the future in D&D settings discussing different types of future from stagnant ones to technologically developed ones to magi-tech ones.

All in all, it's okay

[inuyasha]

I just thought of another question that may come up soon.

For most classes, it's pretty easy to see why they'd travel the planes, clerics and paladins spread their faith, rangers get to hunt exotic creatures, fighters get to... fight, etc. but is there any Planescape material addressing why druids would travel the planes? Do druid powers function properly in the bizarre landscape of Limbo, or are they superpowered since the entire world is a chaotic soup of natural elements? What about the horrifying layers of the abyss, can a druid even commune with the local fauna and flora there?

[Darth Ultron]

I just thought of another question that may come up soon.

For most classes, it's pretty easy to see why they'd travel the planes, clerics and paladins spread their faith, rangers get to hunt exotic creatures, fighters get to... fight, etc. but is there any Planescape material addressing why druids would travel the planes? Do druid powers function properly in the bizarre landscape of Limbo, or are they superpowered since the entire world is a chaotic soup of natural elements? What about the horrifying layers of the abyss, can a druid even commune with the local fauna and flora there?

Well, 2E Planescape did not have druids, of course.

Though after 3X druids can travel the planes for the same reasons as others like adventure and treasure seeking. Druids are quite at home in the Elemental planes, naturally. The other planes do contain a mix of normal animals/plants and more magical not animals/plants, so a druid will still find some use for some powers. Though the high the level the druid, the better off they are for plane hopping.

The vast majority of the druids magic and spells is well suited for planual travel as they have lots of ways to protect, survive and thrive in any environment.

And note the Outer Planes are full of Nature too. The Beastlands are the obvious example, but also Aboera and a couple other places..

[Naanomi]

There is also some discussion of Druids in the Planes that is essentially an 'a place for everything and everything in its place' mentality... the Abyss is natural for the Abyss, the Shadow Plane is natural for the Shadow Plane, The Prime is natural for the Prime... and that Druids with a Planar perspective work to keep the Planes according to their nature (with a natural amount of crossover of course); so that you might have a Druid very angry at the Good Orphanage you somehow established on Carceri or the like

[Tzardok]

I think there was a prestige class for druids with that kind of mentality (or a similar one)... planar shepherd or something like that.

[inuyasha]

Thanks for the answer, guys! I've got a campaign that's gonna head into planescape stuff the next time we meet up, and many of my players are very into druidic stuff, so this'll be important.

[afroakuma]

Hey all,

I asked a quick question over here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?532372-Fun-gear-for-Planar-Pirate), and unseenmage suggested that I consult the wisdom of this board. Any suggestions you might have would be appreciated!

Sorry I missed that, I have been out for a while. Let me know if you still need help with it!


Woah, how did I miss this return?!

I am a very stealthy Dark Lord.


Has there been more formal exploration of the owners of the Barrier Peaks ship?

"Formal?" Very no. You can of course go look into Metamorphosis Alpha, the direct inspiration, but that is not a D&D product. I seem to remember allusions to it originating from this or that old D&D setting, but nothing is cropping up on cursory searches.


All in all, it's okay

Yeah, the unfortunate-but-necessary fact about a product like that is that it was always going to have to defer sizeably to "DM's preference." As a DM I'd have appreciated more guidelines on structuring altered timelines, but what can one do.


For most classes, it's pretty easy to see why they'd travel the planes, clerics and paladins spread their faith, rangers get to hunt exotic creatures, fighters get to... fight, etc. but is there any Planescape material addressing why druids would travel the planes?

Planar shepherds, guardians and wardens of the Elemental Planes and their points of contact with the Material Plane, curators of rare plant life seeking needed reagents and soils, warriors of nature hunting down the origins of interloper species from other worlds and learning how to destroy them/heal the natural world of the taint created by contact...


Do druid powers function properly in the bizarre landscape of Limbo, or are they superpowered since the entire world is a chaotic soup of natural elements?

Per Manual of the Planes, this is not going to be a particularly exciting answer: They suffer the same wild magic effects as any other spells cast in Limbo, and benefit from the same sporadic elemental-dominant traits as all other magic would.


What about the horrifying layers of the abyss, can a druid even commune with the local fauna and flora there?

If it's a plant, then yes. Speak with plants covers plant creatures without regard for their origins.

[Clistenes]

An Spelljammer setting's Planar Cleric of Mount Celestia, would be required to take the Mount Celestia's Planar Domain? The Law and Good Domains? The Law, Good, Air and Destruction Domains, like a Trumpet Archon? Or maybe any Domain of any deity from the Mount would do?

[afroakuma]

An Spelljammer setting's Planar Cleric of Mount Celestia, would be required to take the Mount Celestia's Planar Domain? The Law and Good Domains? The Law, Good, Air and Destruction Domains, like a Trumpet Archon? Or maybe any Domain of any deity from the Mount would do?

...I'm extraordinarily unclear on what's being asked exactly. I need to know where this is from to be able to give an answer.

[Clistenes]

...I'm extraordinarily unclear on what's being asked exactly. I need to know where this is from to be able to give an answer.

In Spelljammer, a Wildspace cleric can worship a group of gods rather than just one.

-A Celestial Bureocracy's priest worships the whole Chinese (and/or Japanese, I think) pantheon. Or maybe worships all the gods, believing them to be all part of the pantheon.

-A Polygot priest priest worships a whole pantheon.

-A Planar Priest worships all the deities from an entire plane (and the Planar Lords, and the plane itself too, probably...).

My question was about what domains would be appropiate for a Planar Priest to take, since Spelljammer doesn't have an official 3.5 conversion...

[afroakuma]

My question was about what domains would be appropiate for a Planar Priest to take, since Spelljammer doesn't have an official 3.5 conversion...

I mean, I'd defer to a DM on that front... obviously, it was written in a pre-domain era, but the sense I drew from it last I read it would seem to be that a planar priest's domains would be in something of a state of flux, having to be supplied by a local deity who maintains a realm on the corresponding plane. The easiest way to do it would simply be to have planar priests use both alignment domains where warranted, though of course Elysium, the Outlands, Limbo, Mechanus, and Hades would still be obnoxious outliers. An option for DMs to consider would be selecting "fundamental" domains for those planes to go hand-in-hand with their alignment component, such as Death for Hades and Trickery for Limbo.

The more eclectic way to do it would be to have a planar priest make contact with an appropriate deity when entering a new sphere, and selecting a pair of that deity's domains for the duration of his or her stay.

[Clistenes]

I mean, I'd defer to a DM on that front... obviously, it was written in a pre-domain era, but the sense I drew from it last I read it would seem to be that a planar priest's domains would be in something of a state of flux, having to be supplied by a local deity who maintains a realm on the corresponding plane. The easiest way to do it would simply be to have planar priests use both alignment domains where warranted, though of course Elysium, the Outlands, Limbo, Mechanus, and Hades would still be obnoxious outliers. An option for DMs to consider would be selecting "fundamental" domains for those planes to go hand-in-hand with their alignment component, such as Death for Hades and Trickery for Limbo.

The more eclectic way to do it would be to have a planar priest make contact with an appropriate deity when entering a new sphere, and selecting a pair of that deity's domains for the duration of his or her stay.

Mmmm... I guess each plane and layer could have domains associated to their themes... for example Mount Celestia as a whole would have the Law, Good, Mount Celestia and Celestial domains, Lunia could have the Water, Ocean, Purification, Renewal and Repose Domains, Mertion the War, Destruction, Protection and Fire domains, Solania the Sun domain..etc.

[Darth Ultron]

An Spelljammer setting's Planar Cleric of Mount Celestia, would be required to take the Mount Celestia's Planar Domain? The Law and Good Domains? The Law, Good, Air and Destruction Domains, like a Trumpet Archon? Or maybe any Domain of any deity from the Mount would do?

I'm not sure they would be ''required'' to take anything....but they could.




My question was about what domains would be appropiate for a Planar Priest to take, since Spelljammer doesn't have an official 3.5 conversion...

2E and 3E clerics are the same with 'clerics of forces or philosophies' . So a 3E cleric that is not devoted to a particular deity, he still selects two domains to represent his spiritual inclinations and abilities. The restriction on alignment domains still applies.

So the answer is ''any''. A cleric can select an alignment domain (Chaos, Evil, Good, or Law) only if his alignment matches that domain. And that is also true of the Planar Domains.

[Mr Adventurer]

Somewhere there are Planar Domains. They take up both your normal choices, and have 2 spells per spell level, generally, IIRC.

Edit: Spell Compendium, p282

[afroakuma]

Alright, well, this thread got off to a rocky start and has been pretty inert, so... I figure this is last call for questions.

[Evolved Shrimp]

What, if anything, can PCs do to piss of gods as a group?

There are probably tons of ways to annoy individual gods by messing with the high priests or stuff that is important to their portfolio, but the only thing I can recall you as mentioning that upsets the entire deisphere seems to be trying to steal unborn souls. (And I’m not sure how a PC would do that – presumably, standing on the town square and shouting “All your future children’s souls are mine!” wouldn’t quite cut it.)

Are there other things that might be within the powers of PCs and that would aggravate large groups of gods?

[Khedrac]

Afro, are you going to change your image hosting for your avatar to one that the rest of us can see?

More seriously, although I always find your posts interesting, I cannot think of any decent questions right now - dang.

[Mr Adventurer]

Q for Afro

Aoskar - or, rather, a 'god of portals' seems like a pretty cool idea. Have I got the timeline right? Aoskar was a power of something else, and tried to claim the portfolio of Portals - but doing so would, in itself, have given him influence over the City of Doors, and the Lady couldn't allow that. Hence his flaying.

So, are other deities now afraid of attempting to claim that portfolio element?

What about the existence of the Portal domain (Spell Compendium) - are there gods who claim that domain and does it relate to this history? (Or is it just Bad Writing?)

[Tzardok]

Q for Afro

Aoskar - or, rather, a 'god of portals' seems like a pretty cool idea. Have I got the timeline right? Aoskar was a power of something else, and tried to claim the portfolio of Portals - but doing so would, in itself, have given him influence over the City of Doors, and the Lady couldn't allow that. Hence his flaying.

So, are other deities now afraid of attempting to claim that portfolio element?

What about the existence of the Portal domain (Spell Compendium) - are there gods who claim that domain and does it relate to this history? (Or is it just Bad Writing?)

Aoskar was the god of portals, he was flayed for claiming that the Lady was an aspect of his. It also only happened when one of the dabus (the one we know now as Fell) became a cleric of his. Besides, there are other deities with portals in their portfolio for whom the portal domain would be fitting, Shaundakul from the Faerûnian pantheon for example.

[Mr Adventurer]

I'm obviously misremembering!

[gkathellar]

So what exactly happened to the Queen of Chaos?

[afroakuma]

What, if anything, can PCs do to piss of gods as a group?

Anything that interferes with clerics generally, or threatens the standing or power of gods on a given world. For instance, having regular access to violet rain, a weather condition that blocks out divine magic, would probably tick them off. Mind you, there's no conventional way to gain regular access to that, but hey, plot devices.

Also, yes, unborn souls.


Aoskar - or, rather, a 'god of portals' seems like a pretty cool idea. Have I got the timeline right? Aoskar was a power of something else, and tried to claim the portfolio of Portals - but doing so would, in itself, have given him influence over the City of Doors, and the Lady couldn't allow that. Hence his flaying.

So, are other deities now afraid of attempting to claim that portfolio element?

What about the existence of the Portal domain (Spell Compendium) - are there gods who claim that domain and does it relate to this history? (Or is it just Bad Writing?)

Aoskar was a god of portals. Him migrating his base of worship (and eventually a temple) into Sigil, and then acquiring a dabus as a worshiper, is what got him shredded. There's nothing the Lady inherently worries herself about with the "portals" portfolio.


So what exactly happened to the Queen of Chaos?

Her boyfriend got ganked and she started losing her war, so she took her toys and went home. She still lives on... I think it's the 14th layer of the Abyss.

[gkathellar]

If she could somehow regain influence in the Abyss, would/could she prosecute the Blood War more zealously? Who would?

[Naanomi]

How would 'other' Magic systems work on Athas? Incarnum and Binding, True Naming and Shadowmagic, etc

[afroakuma]

If she could somehow regain influence in the Abyss, would/could she prosecute the Blood War more zealously?

It's not merely about influence, it also has to do with having the necessary forces to do her thing. The obyriths were depleted preposterously after the War of Law and Chaos, and the coalition she'd formed broke apart and factionalized to a level that would be near impossible to bring back together. Even if she had a mighty tanar'ri general again, she'd try to reignite hostilities - there's a 2E adventure module about this, in point of fact.


How would 'other' Magic systems work on Athas? Incarnum and Binding, True Naming and Shadowmagic, etc

Now that's a very interesting question. Let's dissect it.

Psionics
You didn't ask about psionics, but I think it's an important starting point to reference, because of course psionics are quite prevalent on Athas. They aren't natively involved in the cycle of defiling and preservation (though many high-level casters of both kinds use advanced psionics to empower themselves still further in their chosen discipline). This gives us a baseline understanding of supernatural systems being able to exist in Athas without being linked to the life force of the land.

Incarnum
Incarnum is the borrowed life energy of the world, generated from the living, the dead, and even the unborn. On a planet where life force itself is frequently contaminated, depleted, or annihilated as a cost of channeling arcane magic, incarnum is likely to run into some issues - defilers are more than likely able to weaken wielders of incarnum via their regular casting alone. Furthermore, the dead of Athas do not leave clean imprints as they journey through the Astral Plane to their final rest; they are trapped in the Gray. Essentia, the incarnum generated and stored within the self, is likely untouched by this issue, but ambient incarnum is most likely strongly influenced by a permanent atmospheric "contamination." I'd suggest that soulmelds on Athas likely appear warped and skeletal, bearing the hallmarks of the creatures native to the plane; that essentia and feats which use it directly would be the more popular method of wielding incarnum; and that the magic of defilers can force a Concentration check to avoid losing a shaped soulmeld and having to reform it. Odds are that while essentia still takes on a pure bluish hue, most ambient incarnum is of a nasty green, gray, and yellow patina, perhaps coppery on occasion.

Binding
As vestiges are beyond the normal order of the Planes, it's unlikely that the strange planar phenomena surrounding Athas would impede a binder in any fashion. The abilities granted by vestiges are supernatural in nature, and should not inherently interact with defiling or preserving. Given the relative isolation of the world, it's plausible that fewer vestiges than normal are known on Athas... at least for now, though hideous seals found in cyclopean ruins beyond the fringes of the horizons of the fringes of civilization (that's not a mistake) may unlock the secrets of older contacts with the most antediluvian entities of the beyond. It's possible that the presence of an alien force sharing a living soul in this way interferes with nearby defilers or preservers, forcing Spellcraft checks to stabilize their magic. One interesting notion is that there may be a way for a skilled defiler to exploit a soul bind, using strange and terrible rites beyond even the normal perversity of the defiling "art" to channel additional power through the tap-line to a cosmic force that, while not strictly alive, most definitely exists. Such a connection might go both ways, however, offering the tantalizing possibility of a vestige finding a way to take on a half-existence both in and out of the Great Wheel through incarnation as a living defiler spell of some kind. Many vestiges would pursue even this shadow of reality, and certainly there are defilers foolish enough to try, not realizing the potential consequences of joining with a vast alien existence one means to exploit for power.

Shadow Magic
Shadow magic may well have been one of the principles drawn on by Rajaat to conceive of defiling. It has a similar basic principle - reflection - and operates on the basis of using the shadows of living things, among other shadows, to accomplish its ends. The Plane of Shadow, IIRC, is still accessible from Athas despite its contemporaries forming the Gray, so shadow magic should be fully functional on the dying world. While it would surely be less openly despised than defiling, the nature of shadow magic and the natural fear and hatred most express toward wielders of magic regardless would surely win a shadowcaster no friends. It's plausible that the unnatural cosmological turbulence around Athas creates a bizarre distancing from the Plane of Shadow, or allows voices from the Gray - its nature horrifically distorted due to the magical pollution - to seep through in some minor but disturbing ways into a shadowcaster's magic and their own personal connection with Shadow, resulting in whispers of the decaying damned susurrating eerily around a shadowcaster and their works. The gleanings a shadowcaster gains from such maddened whispers might result in a +2 bonus to Int-based skill checks, while the sinister and nigh-imperceptible aura of gloom such a drone would produce would result in a -2 penalty to Cha-based skill checks.

Truenaming
Truenaming is not magic in the conventional sense, but rather addressing the primal ordering of the multiverse itself in the language it speaks. While it should work on Athas, it's hard to imagine it exists to any substantial extent. It may have been part of the arts of the ancient rhulisti so very long ago, and while bits and pieces of the long-forgotten skill may linger in their ruins, it's not very likely that such fragments would be sufficient to even begin dabbling in the art. Nonetheless, it may have been found somehow, perhaps in a star-tome fallen from the skies long ago. Perhaps it can still be found in the ancient bones of the world, or distilled from the fading recollections of the pyreen.

[Evolved Shrimp]

Anything that interferes with clerics generally, or threatens the standing or power of gods on a given world. For instance, having regular access to violet rain, a weather condition that blocks out divine magic, would probably tick them off. Mind you, there's no conventional way to gain regular access to that, but hey, plot devices.

Also, yes, unborn souls.

Doesn‘t sound like something a PC could trigger accidentally... Which was the reason for my question: I‘m working on a high-level character who specifically wishes to avoid becoming entangled in divine affairs.

If said character would interfere with divine plans or representation on the material plane, how much would a god know about that? Obviously, a god would know or could learn anything her followers know, but what about stuff they don‘t know?

Let‘s say that somebody destroys a major temple of Bane and manages to do so without being seen or leaving any traces that humans could use to discover the person‘s identity. Would portfolio sense or some other means allow Bane to find out?

[afroakuma]

Doesn‘t sound like something a PC could trigger accidentally... Which was the reason for my question: I‘m working on a high-level character who specifically wishes to avoid becoming entangled in divine affairs.

I mean, "accidentally" triggering the wrath of multiple gods simultaneously kind of feels a bit disingenuous, simply because it's the kind of circumstance where if a group of gods was sufficiently worried about a particular thing, they'd have taken sufficient steps to protect against it that it would be nigh-impossible to reasonably claim "I didn't know" and "I didn't mean to." You're not going to accidentally trip over a rock and knock out the Cork of All Worlds from the rift it was stoppering up because you're not going to be anywhere near it without having deliberately gone there, and the gods would have worked to ensure that nobody has a legitimate reason for both going there and doing so in a fashion that risks uncorking a rift. The gods already know mortals are stupid. The last thing they want is to have the sound heralding the apocalypse be "oops."


If said character would interfere with divine plans or representation on the material plane, how much would a god know about that? Obviously, a god would know or could learn anything her followers know, but what about stuff they don‘t know?

"A deity of rank 1 or higher can perceive everything within a radius of one mile per rank around any of its worshipers, holy sites, or other objects or locales sacred to the deity." Unless you have a god on your side, that's virtually unblockable. Assuming the god's worshipers aren't radioing back to home base that some adventurers are thwarting their work, the god can still cast their senses into the area and pick up on any notable irritants with relative ease. They can also use these senses at locations relevant to their worship, including places that are not sites of worship. Then, of course, there's the portfolio sense. Tl;dr gods know a lot more about what's going on in their world than just the sum of followers' knowledge.


Let‘s say that somebody destroys a major temple of Bane and manages to do so without being seen or leaving any traces that humans could use to discover the person‘s identity. Would portfolio sense or some other means allow Bane to find out?

Bane would probably know about it before it happened, at least in a general sense, and would be watching that temple to keep tabs on it. Even without such an early alert, a major temple of Bane probably catches his notice frequently enough that it would be essentially impossible to stop him from picking up on who did it.

[VisitingDaGulag]

OP, do you assume that 3e is a continuation of all unupdated fluff from AD&D? It is understandable to do so, but I have never found any rules that mentioned this as default (unlike the 3.5 rules discussing 3.0 rules).

I confess, I haven't read the Dragon Magazine articles in detail from when 3rd edition first came out. As best I can tell, 3e can be considered in a vacuum.

[afroakuma]

OP, do you assume that 3e is a continuation of all unupdated fluff from AD&D?
○○○○○○○○○○

Basic Rules

• We'll be going with canonical information wherever possible, wherein this refers to all sources from 3.5 and prior.

[Tryxx]

You're not going to accidentally trip over a rock and knock out the Cork of All Worlds from the rift it was stoppering up because you're not going to be anywhere near it without having deliberately gone there, and the gods would have worked to ensure that nobody has a legitimate reason for both going there and doing so in a fashion that risks uncorking a rift. The gods already know mortals are stupid. The last thing they want is to have the sound heralding the apocalypse be "oops."

This is just a day in the life of Tasslehoff Burfoot, I think :smallwink:

Anyway:

I was Google'ing around for some Plane of Shadow plothooks and ideas, and came across this (http://canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=6066) post on the canonfire forums. My question is about the following idea copied here: "The third edition Tome of Magic also mentions the City of Onyx, capital of the khayal genies. Maybe it's a shadow of Ekbir or Zeif, or even of the lost capital of the Baklunish Empire which once stood near Tovag Baragu. Or perhaps the fires of the elemental planes cast their own flickering shadows, and the City of Onyx is somehow a twisted reflection of the City of Brass of the efreet. One quality of shadows is that they can overlap."

It just got me wondering about why if the Plane of Shadows is the place where shadows terminate, what's the justification of the Inner and Outer planes not being as coexistent with the Plane of Shadow now that it's no longer a demiplane?

Also: Belphegor. Just Belphegor. Because you can't have an afroakuma Q&A thread without her.

[afroakuma]

It just got me wondering about why if the Plane of Shadows is the place where shadows terminate, what's the justification of the Inner and Outer planes not being as coexistent with the Plane of Shadow now that it's no longer a demiplane?

As you might imagine, they weren't conscientious enough to go ahead and provide a justification, so at best it'll have to be conjectural: Shadow is the "shadow" of the Material Plane, originally existing long ago at the crux of Positive and Negative Energy as an Inner Planar phenomenon. By definition never having previously been linked to the other Inner Planes, when it broke off into a demiplane (and later full transitive plane) it lost even those links it once had. What it remains is what it has to some extent always been: A mirror of the Material Plane devoid of the elemental building blocks that give form and nature to the light and the dark, to Positive and Negative, leaving them only each other. The Outer Planes have never had a direct link to Shadow because their own conduits to the Inner Planes are different from the "center of all" thing they have going with the Prime Material Plane and always have been. It's worth noting that Shadow is coexistent with the Astral, so connections with Outer Planes can still be formed on occasion.

Of course, that's just in the Great Wheel cosmology. As the Manual of the Planes states, in other cosmologies Shadow may connect with other arrangements of planes in much different ways, such as being the primary transitive route to the Lower Planes of another cosmology.

[Mr Adventurer]

It's worth noting that Shadow is coexistent with the Astral, so connections with Outer Planes can still be formed on occasion.

Coexistent? Or coterminous?

[afroakuma]

Coexistent? Or coterminous?

Coexistent (Manual of the Planes p.61)

[Mr Adventurer]

Huh! That is significantly different than I thought. Co-existent is what the Etherial is to the Prime, isn't it? That's a significantly closer relationship between the Shadow and the Astral than I had thought.

[Evolved Shrimp]

Bane would probably know about it before it happened, at least in a general sense, and would be watching that temple to keep tabs on it. Even without such an early alert, a major temple of Bane probably catches his notice frequently enough that it would be essentially impossible to stop him from picking up on who did it.

So, the solution seems to be to go Yuan-Ti and manipulate someone else into doing the deed, in a way that leaves that person unable to identify the manipulator. If this is done with enough temporal and physical distance from the actual event, the god might still be able to pick up that the perpetrator is not really responsible, but shouldn’t be able to find out who is.

I’ve got another question: The story of the Pact Primeval, as told in Fiendish Codex Ⅱ, explains where the lawful gods and the devils come from. But it doesn’t give any hint about the origin of chaotic gods, especially chaotic good ones. Do you have any insight to share on this?

[Mr Adventurer]

Huh! That is significantly different than I thought. Co-existent is what the Etherial is to the Prime, isn't it? That's a significantly closer relationship between the Shadow and the Astral than I had thought.

The 3.5 Planar Handbook p137 indicates the Plane of Shadow is coexistent with the Prime; it doesn't indicate that Shadow is coexistent with the Astral but it's not an in-depth writeup so it wouldn't by necessity be mentioned in the PlH.

Are there any other planes that are coexistent with two or more partner planes?

[Tzardok]

So, the solution seems to be to go Yuan-Ti and manipulate someone else into doing the deed, in a way that leaves that person unable to identify the manipulator. If this is done with enough temporal and physical distance from the actual event, the god might still be able to pick up that the perpetrator is not really responsible, but shouldn’t be able to find out who is.

I’ve got another question: The story of the Pact Primeval, as told in Fiendish Codex Ⅱ, explains where the lawful gods and the devils come from. But it doesn’t give any hint about the origin of chaotic gods, especially chaotic good ones. Do you have any insight to share on this?

Just assume that this story, like every other story about Asmodeus, is infernal propaganda and unlikely to be completely or even mostly true.

[lord pringle]

You may have answered this already, but which of the Dukes of Hell were the original ones that fell with Asmodeus and were their names different before they did?

[Brookshw]

Glad to see this thread's back. It appears there's a blog to check out.

[Evolved Shrimp]

Just assume that this story, like every other story about Asmodeus, is infernal propaganda and unlikely to be completely or even mostly true.

Sure, that may or may not be so. But either way, the story doesn't tell us where chaotic gods come from. Which Afro might be able to.

[Tzardok]

You may have answered this already, but which of the Dukes of Hell were the original ones that fell with Asmodeus and were their names different before they did?

Of the Lords that exist today, Zariel, Dispater, Belial, Levistus and Mephistopheles fell with Asmodeus.


Sure, that may or may not be so. But either way, the story doesn't tell us where chaotic gods come from. Which Afro might be able to.

If I remember correctly, Afro once speculated that the "deities of law" in the story are in fact the aphanacts, a group of extinct angelic beings of law. Some speculate that Asmodeus and/or the archons are fallen or ascended aphanacts.
Afrocanon on the origin of deities, both lawful and chaotic, is something like descendents of the Dragons that where the enemies of the Draeden. I would have to read his creation myth from the fifth thread again to be sure.

[gkathellar]

Can you conjecture on why the Plane of Shadow doesn't possess more Positive Energy phenomena and creatures?

[afroakuma]

I’ve got another question: The story of the Pact Primeval, as told in Fiendish Codex Ⅱ, explains where the lawful gods and the devils come from. But it doesn’t give any hint about the origin of chaotic gods, especially chaotic good ones. Do you have any insight to share on this?

Yes: it's a really dumb story. Obviously Chaos has more faces than just "demons," but it didn't serve the writers to go into any particular amount of detail on that side of things, not with a mere four pages to explain how very clever their take on Asmodeus was. If you insist on cleaving to this explanation, then "chaos" as described encompasses not just chaotic evil, but also chaotic neutral and chaotic good; further, the gods of those alignments would logically have arisen on their own from the ancient chaos, just as their antitheses appeared to combat them.


You may have answered this already, but which of the Dukes of Hell were the original ones that fell with Asmodeus and were their names different before they did?

We don't know about their names, but among those to have fallen were Mephistopheles, Dispater, Zariel, Belial, and Levistus. Sources exist to support that Lucifer was one of the fallen, and he at least changed his name to Beherit. I'm assuming you didn't actually mean "Dukes," since that's a much broader question and one without sufficient sources for answers.


Glad to see this thread's back. It appears there's a blog to check out.

Well, I mean, I have a blog; it has very little to do with D&D, however. It's mostly for politics, television, movies, and board games. Occasional comedic articles, as well.


Can you conjecture on why the Plane of Shadow doesn't possess more Positive Energy phenomena and creatures?

Arguably it does - they're the living.

[Naanomi]

A few threads ago you said you'd share your thoughts on what the 'space' areas far from the spheres of Carceri and volcanoes of Gehenna might contain... care to elaborate now?

[inuyasha]

Is there anything stated on the position of Tieflings in the blood war, and what (if involved at all) their station is on either side?

[Tzardok]

The term 'cannon fodder for whoever press gangs them' comes to mind.

[Mr Adventurer]

Looks like my earlier question may have been missed - are there planes, or demiplanes or other spaces, other than the Shadow (Material/Astral) that are coexistent with more than one plane?

[Tzardok]

Didn't the Dungeon Master's Guide claim that the Astral is coexistent with every other plane?

[Mr Adventurer]

Ah yes - p150. Looks like I missed this fundamental bit!

[Mr Adventurer]

What do we know about the fiend previously bound to be Ashardalon's heart?

[Baldin]

Hi there Afro!

I haven't ever made a post on your threads, however I do like to read them. Now on the forum the question "How to kill a god" often surfaces. Mostly people give some way to kill the god saying their stats are found in book X and/or making Ice Assassins. Now I always assumed that as soon as stats are used for a god in any way, these are stats for the gods avatar and not the god itself. I mean, I can't fathom that a god actually would be given stats. I mean, no mortal should be even closely capable to kill an actual god without help from another god. Am I correct that these stats are avatars?

Also I have a question about how someone would become a god. Is it as "easy" as having a number of mortals actualy worship you as a god? For example, if a paladin would be widely known by the population of a country and many flok to worship him. Would that, eventually, be enough to become a god?

[afroakuma]

A few threads ago you said you'd share your thoughts on what the 'space' areas far from the spheres of Carceri and volcanoes of Gehenna might contain... care to elaborate now?

Not just yet, no. I don't have it in me right now to make up a bunch of stuff. Some time in the near future, hopefully, but it's 11 PM.


Is there anything stated on the position of Tieflings in the blood war, and what (if involved at all) their station is on either side?

Tieflings should really know better than to get involved in the Blood War; neither the devils nor the demons have any great need of them unless they happen to be possessed of significant ability beyond their mere birthright - mighty warriors, dreaded sorcerers, etc.

Beyond that, they're basically humans. Cannon fodder.


What do we know about the fiend previously bound to be Ashardalon's heart?

Ammet, Eater of Souls, was a powerful balor in service to Demogorgon before being bound to Ashardalon. Much of his personal power was instilled in an artifact called Helltongue, a deadly whip that drinks the souls of those touched by its three lashes. Ammet's nature has been forever warped by his time bound to Ashardalon; if released from his confinement, he possesses the half-dragon template.


Now I always assumed that as soon as stats are used for a god in any way, these are stats for the gods avatar and not the god itself. I mean, I can't fathom that a god actually would be given stats. I mean, no mortal should be even closely capable to kill an actual god without help from another god. Am I correct that these stats are avatars?

No; officially, Deities & Demigods and similar books present stats for the gods themselves. Underwhelming, I know, but that's the kind of thing some people like, so...


Also I have a question about how someone would become a god. Is it as "easy" as having a number of mortals actualy worship you as a god? For example, if a paladin would be widely known by the population of a country and many flok to worship him. Would that, eventually, be enough to become a god?

No. Becoming a god is extremely difficult.

[Mr Adventurer]

Ammet, Eater of Souls, was a powerful balor in service to Demogorgon before being bound to Ashardalon. Much of his personal power was instilled in an artifact called Helltongue, a deadly whip that drinks the souls of those touched by its three lashes. Ammet's nature has been forever warped by his time bound to Ashardalon; if released from his confinement, he possesses the half-dragon template.

Thanks! I'll see if I can find anything more about Ammet and his place in the fiendish hierarchy. Looking at Bastion of Broken Souls, he's powerful enough that an actor like the Cathezar, a unique Marilith, felt he was an alternative liege to Ameul (desperate though she may have been)...

[afroakuma]

Thanks! I'll see if I can find anything more about Ammet and his place in the fiendish hierarchy. Looking at Bastion of Broken Souls, he's powerful enough that an actor like the Cathezar, a unique Marilith, felt he was an alternative liege to Ameul (desperate though she may have been)...

I'll save you the time: there won't be anything. As for the Cathezar, it's probably a matter of how her current boss is insane and plots against himself, while this guy's loud, proud, and unapologetically violent. Also right here, and she gets to choose to face him, to run off and anger her current boss, or to take on a new boss, so... really, it's just the most practical choice.

[Mr Adventurer]

Aha, OK, thanks.

As to the Cathezar's motives - the fact that he's an option at all is still an indicator of his relative pull (or potential pull once he's built it back up after his confinement) in the fiendish hierarchy. I guess, being a Balor rather than a unique demon, he's not at the level of a demon prince, but enough to be notable.

[afroakuma]

Alright folks, last call for questions. Next time this thread sinks, I'm closing it.

[Lord_Gareth]

Alright folks, last call for questions. Next time this thread sinks, I'm closing it.

What might the aftereffects or signs on the Prime (and/or the Astral?) be of a newborn god entering the Planes? To clarify, not the ascension of a formerly mortal deity, but the birth of the child of extant gods, such as Eilistraee.

[Dalmosh]

Please could you elaborate on the ecology and general nature of elementals when upon their respective Inner Planes?
My understanding is that the statted out forms they take when summoned to the Material Plane aren't reflective of how one might encounter them on their home planes.
Are they a bit like the semi-tangible "spirits", that Spirit Shamans interact with?

[Naanomi]

Has Anubis always been in his role of Divine Corpse-Watcher, or was he a 'normal' God first and got promoted somehow later?

Does the Temporal Prime predate the current cosmology, or is it part of this creation cycle (presumably among the first parts)?

In another thread, there is discussion about The One in the Void, and I was surprised to learn that she was a Good Deity (according to Dungeon Magazine adventure path anyways)... I thought she was basically an unknown. Do we know anything else about her of significance?

The next three are philosophizing here so bear with me...

Draeden seem to be very compatible with Negative Energy... both are sort of the opposites of matter, life, existence, etc. Meanwhile their opponents ('gods' or dragons or whatever) at the beginning of reality are pretty 'creation/positive energy' focused. Could the prominence of positive and negative energy in the cosmology be echoes of that original existential conflict?

Aboleth: do they have souls/become petitioners when they die? If so, they'd have been (by far) the first petitioners... could their highly Lawful Neutral nature be part of why Baator seems so 'advanced' compared to other outer Planes? (They had a whole race of Exemplars evolve into a nonphysical state before the law of war and chaos even broke out!)

Is it possible that Eladrin are 'replacement exemplars' (like Rilmani and Tanar'ri) for a forgotten (giantish?) original Arborean exemplar who 'ascended' (or whatever) like the ancient baatorians?

[afroakuma]

What might the aftereffects or signs on the Prime (and/or the Astral?) be of a newborn god entering the Planes?

I don't know why there would be any, per se.


Please could you elaborate on the ecology and general nature of elementals when upon their respective Inner Planes?

It's not a tremendously clear thing, since rarely is it even remotely touched on, but yes, elementals on their home planes are something like incorporeal spirits that can manipulate their environment like a body - they are what it is, after all, only sentient. Elementals, and here to be specific I'm referring to the beings referred to specifically and exclusively by that term and no other, are by nature genderless and do not reproduce; they generally organize in small bands. More than any other inhabitant of their home plane, elementals are the purest example of that element coming to life.


Has Anubis always been in his role of Divine Corpse-Watcher, or was he a 'normal' God first and got promoted somehow later?

The latter. He was formerly a member of the Pharaonic pantheon.


Does the Temporal Prime predate the current cosmology, or is it part of this creation cycle (presumably among the first parts)?

Unknown. It is likely part of this cosmology.


In another thread, there is discussion about The One in the Void, and I was surprised to learn that she was a Good Deity (according to Dungeon Magazine adventure path anyways)... I thought she was basically an unknown. Do we know anything else about her of significance?


"She" isn't even specified last I checked; the Dungeon adventure constantly uses "it."

Beyond the fact that The One in the Void was a good-aligned deity and that its corpse has several head "spokes" and six "arms" we know only that it died long before the Gith rebellion.


Draeden seem to be very compatible with Negative Energy... both are sort of the opposites of matter, life, existence, etc. Meanwhile their opponents ('gods' or dragons or whatever) at the beginning of reality are pretty 'creation/positive energy' focused. Could the prominence of positive and negative energy in the cosmology be echoes of that original existential conflict?

No.


Aboleth: do they have souls/become petitioners when they die?

Yes.


If so, they'd have been (by far) the first petitioners... could their highly Lawful Neutral nature

Excuse you?


be part of why Baator seems so 'advanced' compared to other outer Planes? (They had a whole race of Exemplars evolve into a nonphysical state before the law of war and chaos even broke out!)

No.


Is it possible that Eladrin are 'replacement exemplars' (like Rilmani and Tanar'ri) for a forgotten (giantish?) original Arborean exemplar who 'ascended' (or whatever) like the ancient baatorians?

It's all but outright stated that the eladrin are successors of a more ancient group whose ruins are still found buried in the dust of Pelion.

[Baldin]

Hi Afroakuma,

Thanks for the quick replies on my last questions!

I have a new one though. Plane Shift states that "From the Material Plane, you can reach any other plane". However in previous threats you have mentioned there are planes you can't just Plane Shift to. Is this list big and if not could you make a list? If it is to big what kind of planes can't you Plane Shift to?

[afroakuma]

Plane Shift states that "From the Material Plane, you can reach any other plane". However in previous threats you have mentioned there are planes you can't just Plane Shift to. Is this list big and if not could you make a list? If it is to big what kind of planes can't you Plane Shift to?

Plane shift uses the Astral Plane for transit; it can't reach anywhere that doesn't connect with the Astral Plane. It also can't reach dimensions (Temporal Prime is strictly speaking not a plane), alternate cosmologies, some specific demiplanes that are set to refuse magical transport, and planes too esoteric or undefined to be magically addressable via tuning fork material (Ordial, "Near Realm", etc. - generally the fanon ones). The Far Realm is accessible via plane shift (the fork required is probably made of kaorti resin or some other inimical substance) thanks to the damage done to the boundary in the past; were it not for this prior contact, it would fall under the scope of places unreachable.

[gkathellar]

Plane shift uses the Astral Plane for transit; it can't reach anywhere that doesn't connect with the Astral Plane. It also can't reach dimensions (Temporal Prime is strictly speaking not a plane), alternate cosmologies, some specific demiplanes that are set to refuse magical transport, and planes too esoteric or undefined to be magically addressable via tuning fork material (Ordial, "Near Realm", etc. - generally the fanon ones). The Far Realm is accessible via plane shift (the fork required is probably made of kaorti resin or some other inimical substance) thanks to the damage done to the boundary in the past; were it not for this prior contact, it would fall under the scope of places unreachable.

Does something about the Ethereal's nature prevent it from being used for an equivalent spell in the same way?

[Naanomi]

The latter. He was formerly a member of the Pharaonic pantheon.
Do we have any indication about when this happened? Before/After the War of Law and Chaos? Etc?


Excuse you?
Sorry, Lawful Evil... don't know what happened there. It just churns my head-cannon to think that there was a long period of Planar history where the only souls floating around the Outer Planes were in the hands of the Ancient Baatorians, and what effect that had on the development of that Plane


It's all but outright stated that the eladrin are successors of a more ancient group whose ruins are still found buried in the dust of Pelion.Ancient Arboreans then? Or is there some other nomenclature out there?

[Jowgen]

We know that Olidammara flat out created the vestige Andromalius. Would you say the vestige part was more of a freak accident, or something Olidammara could repeat at will? Depending on that, is this something any deity could accomplish, or do you think there are set qualities the deity and soul-to-be-vestiged must posess? Lastly, do you think Olidammara (and any given deity that may have done something similar) could reverse the Vestige-theosis, or is it a permanently done deal?

[SpoonR]

If I sneak in under the deadline...

Birthright halflings were refugees from a 'shadow plane'. Is there any more detail on it? Was it part of the shadow demiplane or plane?

I think 1E the norns/fates lived in one of the rings of Concordant opp. Did they get into planescape?

[gkathellar]

Is Anubis dependent on worship in the fashion of other gods? His unique role makes it seem kind of like the rules might apply differently to him.

[Bronk]

Speaking of Anubis, why hasn't he reclaimed the dead god that the githyanki are living on?

[Naanomi]

We did a fair amount of Anubis-talk a few threads ago. He doesn't need worship like other Gods (whatever empowers him to do his job is all he needs, probably the Old Ones)...

Overall he is pretty whimsical (from a mortal perspective) about doing his job, so apparently Tu'narath hasn't 'crossed the line' just yet

[JoeyTheNeko]

been gone for awhile, but don't want this thread to close.
I have read that ao has the ability to flat out create gods who fit the needs of the forgotten realm pantheon. my question is how, then do these gods get set up a religion and church, since they were not created by the beliefs of a already existing congregation?

[unseenmage]

been gone for awhile, but don't want this thread to close.
I have read that ao has the ability to flat out create gods who fit the needs of the forgotten realm pantheon. my question is how, then do these gods get set up a religion and church, since they were not created by the beliefs of a already existing congregation?
According to the Power of Faerun book it requires a whopping TWO successful diplomacy checks to convert someone to your ideas of worship.
One to get them to attend the sermon and another for the sermon itself.

[JoeyTheNeko]

some questions I asked last thread never did get answered so I might as well ask them here.

so Orcus's wand is D&D's spin on the one ring...

what does that make it's apparent counterpart, asmodous's ruby rod a spin on?

[enderlord99]

How would one identify that a Chole Dragon was secretly part Draeden? Is such a thing even possible?

[JoeyTheNeko]

what do we know about lindorms and spell eaters (from dragon magic) any notable planar members of each and their origins?

[afroakuma]

Does something about the Ethereal's nature prevent it from being used for an equivalent spell in the same way?

It's not a plane of planar connections like the Astral, so its nature is poorly suited to the task at hand.


Do we have any indication about when this happened? Before/After the War of Law and Chaos? Etc?

Formally no, but after the War of Law and Chaos is basically a given, since Anubis was a human deity for some time and is still referenced in the cultural artifacts of some Prime societies.


Ancient Arboreans then? Or is there some other nomenclature out there?

There is not.


We know that Olidammara flat out created the vestige Andromalius. Would you say the vestige part was more of a freak accident, or something Olidammara could repeat at will?

Freak accident.


Lastly, do you think Olidammara (and any given deity that may have done something similar) could reverse the Vestige-theosis, or is it a permanently done deal?

One way only.


Birthright halflings were refugees from a 'shadow plane'. Is there any more detail on it? Was it part of the shadow demiplane or plane?

The Shadow World is a strange phenomenon, having elements of a Material Plane demiplane, a Realm of Faerie, and the Ethereal and Shadow Planes. It is, however, ultimately a phenomenon of the Ethereal Plane: the Shadow World is the Border Ethereal around Aebrynis (and possibly throughout Aebrynispace).


I think 1E the norns/fates lived in one of the rings of Concordant opp. Did they get into planescape?

The Well of Urd, realm of the Norns, exists in Planescape, yes.


Is Anubis dependent on worship in the fashion of other gods?

He used to be, but he's no longer a god and no longer has that dependency.


Speaking of Anubis, why hasn't he reclaimed the dead god that the githyanki are living on?

It is unclear why the Guardian of Dead Gods does not consider githyanki transgressions against The One in the Void to be his business. Perhaps their insular, mad little god-city and its society somehow give others who might consider doing likewise pause.


I have read that ao has the ability to flat out create gods who fit the needs of the forgotten realm pantheon. my question is how, then do these gods get set up a religion and church, since they were not created by the beliefs of a already existing congregation?

Manifestations, omens, miracles, yada yada.


so Orcus's wand is D&D's spin on the one ring...

what does that make it's apparent counterpart, asmodous's ruby rod a spin on?

This? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wnE4vF9CQ4)


How would one identify that a Chole Dragon was secretly part Draeden? Is such a thing even possible?

The concept of a crossbreed between a draeden and anything else of the material universe is absurd; draedens hate all things made of anything and try to destroy it. Chole dragons might be influenced by the horrific presence of the draeden Ulgurshek far above causing turbulence within the Abyss itself, but in nature, abilities, and behavior they are clearly true scions of the Abyss and of chaos and evil.


what do we know about lindorms and spell eaters (from dragon magic) any notable planar members of each and their origins?

Spelleaters have only been detailed in one book, so no.

As for linnorms, it's more than likely that some can be found on various planes, particularly in areas connected to Yggdrasil. One individual of note is the dread linnorm Redfang, a personal nemesis of Morwel.

[gkathellar]

Huh. So what happened to his clerics and worshippers? Are they all gone?

[Tzardok]

I think their worship is shared between the other Pharaonian deities. They also share spellgranting duties.

[Bronk]

It is unclear why the Guardian of Dead Gods does not consider githyanki transgressions against The One in the Void to be his business. Perhaps their insular, mad little god-city and its society somehow give others who might consider doing likewise pause.

Thanks! The players in my game recently inhabited a dead god in secret, so I'm extra interested in this, and I have a few more questions.

Does Anubis have a godlike sense of what happens in his astral graveyard? Would he know they're there already?

What would his personality be like if they end up talking to him? How tough is he, and what powers would he have, if they fight, or witness a fight with someone else?

How big is he? Is he human sized, the size of the miles long god corpses, or somewhere in between?

I've run across a Dragon article with some options for what players might find on a god corpse, like godsblood, weird memories, strange plants and minerals, and even the possibility of running into a field that raises stats. But for 3.5, all I could find was a web article saying that the first members of the spelltheif class got their powers by accidentally coming into contact with dead god's fluids after the Time of Troubles. Are there any other interesting things that you might find on a god corpse? Is there anything updated to 3.5 out there?




As for linnorms, it's more than likely that some can be found on various planes, particularly in areas connected to Yggdrasil. One individual of note is the dread linnorm Redfang, a personal nemesis of Morwel.

Is this the Redfang that I'm hearing is from Savage Tides? If not, is there more out there about Redfang, like where he lives, and so on?

[JoeyTheNeko]

so the favored enemy ability of rangers...
whats the fluff about it? is it based on the study of their enemies, or on hate and rage against them, as some depictions have done?

[Mr Adventurer]

so the favored enemy ability of rangers...
whats the fluff about it? is it based on the study of their enemies, or on hate and rage against them, as some depictions have done?

What's this got to do with the planes? And, what are you looking for beyond what's in the PHB?

[JoeyTheNeko]

this thread isn't just planescape stuff. it's generally all kinds of fluff, and I am curious about this particular fluff idea.
I find the idea of redfang intruging. are there other similar cases of comparitively mortal race individuals being mortal enemies of immortal beings? I know fraz urblu considers humankind his archenemies... any other similar situations with uniques?

[Dragonexx]

If you're looking for more fluff for elementals, there's an entire fan made sourcebook on the inner planes.

https://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Book_of_Elements_(3.5e_Sourcebook)

[JoeyTheNeko]

hm.
what interesting locations on the inner planes stand out to you afro, that tend to be obscure and not normally covered in most works?

[rigsmal]

Two questions:

The First. Any known way to block transportation by wish?

The Second. The Spire in the middle of the Outlands blocks arcane and divine magics, psionics, and salient divine abilities. Why? Is there an example of anything else doing this?

[JoeyTheNeko]

is there any hint as to the origin of vampires and who was the possible first vampire?

[Naanomi]

The Second. The Spire in the middle of the Outlands blocks arcane and divine magics, psionics, and salient divine abilities. Why? Is there an example of anything else doing this?
It is part of the Neutral nature of the place... the closer you get to the middle the more abilities get negated, putting everyone on a (mystically) balanced footing

[JoeyTheNeko]

so there have been contreversies involving spells in the awakening line, awaken animal, awaken plant, awaken undead, awaken construct, etc.... how can these spells be explained as working to give their subjects sentience/souls/etc without too much hassle?

[enderlord99]

Two questions:

The First. Any known way to block transportation by wish?

Make sure either the start or the destination is near the Spire. Wish is a spell. :smallwink:

[Bronk]

Make sure either the start or the destination is near the Spire. Wish is a spell. :smallwink:

Well, the start at least. As an endpoint, the lack of magic is just a local condition.

[Dragonexx]

Is there any explanation of where Astral Dreadnoughts come from?

[JoeyTheNeko]

so I have read some of your homebrews and am curious...
is the cha stat really used to measure spiritual power for exemplars, elementals, etc? why is that?

[afroakuma]

Huh. So what happened to his clerics and worshippers? Are they all gone?

This one kind of ended up branched, because the consistent answer for most of Planescape/3.X was that their worship passed to the pantheon generally, which supported them in kind. As of Dragon 359, however, the pantheon includes an Anubis of its own, separate from the Guardian (though it is acknowledged that the Guardian was the original Anubis before he abandoned his divinity). He still retains a single proxy


Does Anubis have a godlike sense of what happens in his astral graveyard? Would he know they're there already?

He knows they're there. Whether or not he cares... well, the Guardian of the Dead Gods is weird. Also he doesn't like being referred to as Anubis, since that's not his name.


What would his personality be like if they end up talking to him?

Murder-y. :smalltongue: He doesn't show up to socialize, he shows up to solve problems, and only on those occasions. Depending on the scale of the problem, he may not even appear personally - he knows how to contact hirelings to come do the job.


How tough is he

"Don't fight this." He's unstatted and still possesses godlike power.


and what powers would he have, if they fight, or witness a fight with someone else?

Unspecified, but "godlike" and "pertaining to death" make for a rather unspectacular and brief struggle.


How big is he? Is he human sized, the size of the miles long god corpses, or somewhere in between?

"Tall." Presumably he can appear at basically any size he likes. Again, though, he doesn't manifest unless there's a problem to solve.


I've run across a Dragon article with some options for what players might find on a god corpse, like godsblood, weird memories, strange plants and minerals, and even the possibility of running into a field that raises stats. But for 3.5, all I could find was a web article saying that the first members of the spelltheif class got their powers by accidentally coming into contact with dead god's fluids after the Time of Troubles. Are there any other interesting things that you might find on a god corpse?

What, besides magic auras, magic phenomena, magic plants, magic minerals, and magic fluids? What more do you want? :smalltongue:


Is there anything updated to 3.5 out there?

Doubtful. I haven't seen anything.


Is this the Redfang that I'm hearing is from Savage Tides?

One and the same.


so the favored enemy ability of rangers...
whats the fluff about it?


Due to his extensive study on his chosen type of foe and training in the proper techniques for combating such creatures


I find the idea of redfang intruging. are there other similar cases of comparitively mortal race individuals being mortal enemies of immortal beings?

Redfang, Gnawer in Darkness, is hardly "mortal" in any conventional sense; known in ancient times as Stjernespise, he is said to be a child of Niddhogg itself and quite literally eats eladrin for breakfast, among other things.


Any known way to block transportation by wish?

DM fiat. Gods, etc.


The Spire in the middle of the Outlands blocks arcane and divine magics, psionics, and salient divine abilities. Why?

As noted above, it's the very center of absolute neutrality.


Is there an example of anything else doing this?

I'm sure you're familiar with the other conventional means of accomplishing similar effects. Antimagic shell, a deity of higher rank using its own abilities to intercede, etc.


is there any hint as to the origin of vampires and who was the possible first vampire?

The first vampire was Kanchelsis.


so there have been contreversies involving spells in the awakening line, awaken animal, awaken plant, awaken undead, awaken construct, etc.... how can these spells be explained as working to give their subjects sentience/souls/etc without too much hassle?

Awaken and similar spells use a mote of the caster's own soul energies (XP), so it should be no surprise that the result is a being which is initially friendly to the caster and speaks the caster's language. Animals already have souls, neither constructs nor sand gain them by being awakened (these beings remain of the construct type) and undead simply take on a flimsy mockery of a soul (awaken undead is dispellable). Awakening a plant is the only outlier, and it's debatable whether the plant actually gains a soul (many plants have mental attributes but are driven by animi rather than true souls) or just profits from the catalytic infusion of the caster's own soul-mote to become a more complex animus.


Is there any explanation of where Astral Dreadnoughts come from?

The Astral Plane. :smalltongue:

No, there's not. At best, speculation ponders that they might be the living embodiments of astral conduits, or nightmarish astral travelers from an unknown world of the Prime.


so I have read some of your homebrews and am curious...
is the cha stat really used to measure spiritual power for exemplars, elementals, etc?

Well, it's used to measure the potency of their spell-like abilities and some supernatural abilities. Make of that what you will.


why is that?


This ability represents actual strength of personality

...which projects onto strength of convictions, sense of self, sense of identity... all things which are crucial for creatures of belief.

[JoeyTheNeko]

you have stated before that good and evil in the exemplar races is not enough of a catalyst to form unique exemplarss
is there a reason why it would be enough to form unique elementals, like the princes of elemental good and evil? what explaination allows for that?

also curious, are there any races of bunny folk in D&D? we have cat folk, we have yak folk, we have all sorts of folk.. do we got rabbit folk? or even ratfolk like from warhammers skaven?

[afroakuma]

you have stated before that good and evil in the exemplar races is not enough of a catalyst to form unique exemplarss
is there a reason why it would be enough to form unique elementals, like the princes of elemental good and evil? what explaination allows for that?

You're comparing apples and oranges. If I have an all-black figurine and I paint a black stripe on it, can you distinguish it from the other all-black figurines? Conversely, if I take an all-red figurine and add a black stripe, it is now distinctive. I don't understand the purpose of this question.


also curious, are there any races of bunny folk in D&D?

No, though hengeyokai can conceivably have a rabbit tribe, pookas can take on rabbit-like forms, and Gamma World (which is tangentially related to D&D in a few threadlike ways) has the hoops, a race of anthropomorphic rabbits.


or even ratfolk like from warhammers skaven?

Nezumi. Were-rats generally cover the niche, though.

[JoeyTheNeko]

ah so your saying it's basically taking any alignment that allows for elementals to form uniques, and only law and chaos that does so for exemplars. elementals become distinctive/unqiue just by taking alignment, in that sense.

since the ancient battorians, by your words, basically leveled up past the need for physcial forms... what would that leave baelphagor? would she be a high ranking unique ancient battorain or a lower ranking one in their terms because of her still retaining a woundable, physcial form unlike the rest of them?

[rigsmal]

I believe I read somewhere that those who worship overdeities such as Ao never receive anything as part of that worship, e.g. clerics don't get spells. The lack of a divine connection is not unlike that of the faithless. So would such overdeity worshippers end up in the Wall of the Faithless?

It's also stated in The Factol's Manifesto that Terrance, the Athar factol, gains spells from a simple "trust in the multiverse". His statblock reads that he gets spells from the Greater Unknown. Would he be a candidate for the Wall of the Faithless?

[afroakuma]

ah so your saying it's basically taking any alignment that allows for elementals to form uniques, and only law and chaos that does so for exemplars. elementals become distinctive/unqiue just by taking alignment, in that sense.

...no, I don't believe that's what I'm saying at all. I'm extremely confused by the thrust of this line of questioning. If there's a point I'm missing, getting to it would be a big help.


since the ancient battorians, by your words, basically leveled up past the need for physcial forms... what would that leave baelphagor? would she be a high ranking unique ancient battorain or a lower ranking one in their terms because of her still retaining a woundable, physcial form unlike the rest of them?

Given that Asmodeus was apparently able to recapture some of the lower-leveled ones and convert them into dogai despite their having ascended beyond physical form, I don't believe relative strength is at all demonstrated by the choice to do so. We'll never have enough information to usefully "scale" Baalphegor, but at the very least she's significantly stronger than dogai and still makes Asmodeus treat her with respect.


I believe I read somewhere that those who worship overdeities such as Ao never receive anything as part of that worship, e.g. clerics don't get spells. The lack of a divine connection is not unlike that of the faithless. So would such overdeity worshippers end up in the Wall of the Faithless?

Yep. It's worth noting that cults and "ministries" of Ao are 1) more philosophical than religious in nature, and 2) naturally pressured to cease existing via Ao's stealthy redaction of his name from records and memories. Those who abandoned worship of another deity because "Ao's better" may be judged False instead.


It's also stated in The Factol's Manifesto that Terrance, the Athar factol, gains spells from a simple "trust in the multiverse". His statblock reads that he gets spells from the Greater Unknown. Would he be a candidate for the Wall of the Faithless?

He would not. The "power" he venerates, such as it is, is not native to Faerun and its pantheon. Whether Terrance is from there or not, Kelemvor has no right to hold him for judgment and Terrance will be released into the Astral Plane, thence to meander... wherever Athar souls go.

[Tzardok]

The first vampire was Kanchelsis.


Really? I thought he was just some vampire that ascended, but the first one... Is there any information about how he became a vampire, how he ascended to divinity, what his race was before and how long ago it happened?

[Seto]

He was a half-elf, as far as I can tell using google. But how he became a vampire, now that's interesting.

[gkathellar]

@JoeytheNeko: The point is that it's not good and evil in particular, but rather alignment in general, that is unremarkable for an Outsider. Having an alignment is not going to make an Outsider somehow distinctive. "Golly, an Outsider with an alignment? Shocking!"

For an elemental, on the other hand, alignment is weird. As fro said, it's adding a black stripe to something red. Suddenly, it's distinctive.

[JoeyTheNeko]

@afroakuma.

sorry if it's confusing, I just find it facinating that good and evil won't let yugoloths and guardanials become unique, but it will let elementals.

I have more questions.

are you familiar with the world of rwby? how would you try to fit it into a D&D based system? in my perception, the idea of aura and semblance would be a form of incarnum, but what would your thoughts on the matter be?

[ksbsnowowl]

According to 2nd ed Planescape material, Mephits are short-lived beings created by magic*. The 3rd edition monster manual has no such information, and 3rd ed sources seem to treat them as standard outsiders that have always been, have "normal" (for outsiders) life cycles, and even reproduce and have young offspring (see entries on the Mirror Mephit in EttDwP).

How would you rectify this seeming discrepancy for a 3.5 Planescape-influenced setting (ala Lord of the Iron Fortress, Bastion of Broken Souls, and Expedition to the Demonweb Pits)?

On a related note, how are Mirror Mephits summoned (Summon Mirror Mephit, EttDwP p. 209) from the Plane of Mirrors, since the PoM has no connection to any of the transitive planes (no access to the Astral, Ethereal, or Shadow planes)?


*
Evil powers on the Lower Planes create mephits using a variant of monster summoning IV that incorporates aspects of contact other plane. They use the substance of an elemental plane to create a servant, usually as a stopgap or a substitute for less loyal underlings. Mephits do not betray their creators but do seem to irritate them, and so they lead brief, troublesome lives. Quickly created and destroyed, they have no predetermined life span.

[JoeyTheNeko]

what artifacts are possessed by lords of the nine that are not mentioned in the fiendish codex 2? and why is a shriver a magical location?

[Bronk]

He still retains a single proxy

Murder-y. :smalltongue: He doesn't show up to socialize, he shows up to solve problems, and only on those occasions. Depending on the scale of the problem, he may not even appear personally - he knows how to contact hirelings to come do the job.



Awesome!

Since he's not a god though, I'm guessing he doesn't have a separate divine realm. Does he have a base somewhere? A castle (or pyramid?), or does he stay near a particular dead god?

Also, what race is his proxy?

[JoeyTheNeko]

so whats the deal with storm elementals? do they have any lore besides the MM3? are there elemental monotliths and primal storm elementals, which one can imply from their progression being the same as normal air elementals?

[Feantar]

First timer in these threads - they are pretty awesome.

Four questions, in descending order of interest. Apologies if these are too many, I'm just curious.


Is there any credence to the theory that the Demiplane of Shadow becoming the third Transitive is a divine act to obscure the true third transitive (because gods don't like mortals in the Ordial)? I am not sure if I've read this somewhere (maybe in these threads? they're huge!) or if I came up with it, I just remember some theory on the shadow plane being an illusion obscuring some cosmic truth - and I don't mean the supposed tower made of light that has all the colours stolen from the rest of the plane.
What's the Spire(Outlands) made of? I've read faith, which sounds... weird but thematically appropriate. If it is faith, I'm picturing dwarven petitioners amassing on the base of the Spire to mine (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HI0x0KYChq4) it for Moradin, impeded by Rilmani environmentalists :smalltongue:)
Are the Githzerai some kind of creator/first race of the multiverse? Were they race-ing before it was cool?*
Care to share the dark on the power who's spine was redecorated as Khin-Oin?

* The third point might need some clarification: I am asking because in your post here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=14517870&postcount=456) you mention them as signatories to the Draeden pact. But the Githzerai are an evolution / devolution of Gith(Race, not Bipolar Swordwielding Psycho)... so how can they be primordial? I probably hold to some misconception concerning the pact.

[Tzardok]

Is there any credence to the theory that the Demiplane of Shadow becoming the third Transitive is a divine act to obscure the true third transitive (because gods don't like mortals in the Ordial)? I am not sure if I've read this somewhere (maybe in these threads? they're huge!) or if I came up with it, I just remember some theory on the shadow plane being an illusion obscuring some cosmic truth - and I don't mean the supposed tower made of light that has all the colours stolen from the rest of the plane.
What's the Spire(Outlands) made of? I've read faith, which sounds... weird but thematically appropriate. If it is faith, I'm picturing dwarven petitioners amassing on the base of the Spire to mine (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HI0x0KYChq4) it for Moradin, impeded by Rilmani environmentalists :smalltongue:)
Are the Githzerai some kind of creator/first race of the multiverse? Were they race-ing before it was cool?*



1. That looks a bit as if you stumbled upon The Shadow Lie, an obscure (pun intended) way of thinking that claims Shadow exists to hide certain truths about the multiverse. Believers of the Shadow Lie (like myself) think that any semblance of order in the multiverse is created through the Shadow. As long as I believe that Celestia is between Arcadia, the Outlands and Bytopia, I will be able to reach it only from there. Every other way is hidden by the Shadow. The Shadow Lie also claims that the Shadow didn't change into a new kind of plane, only our perception of it changed. No matter wether thats true or not, deities don't have anything to do with the change (or the Shadow Lie).

2. Everything on the Outer Planes is made of belief. To casual inspection the spire seems to be some kind of stone. As it is also comepletely invulnerable to any damage, there is no way say for sure. (And if you are barmy enough to try to mine it, the Rilmani start laughing at you.)

3. The pact mentioned in that post is obviously not as old as think. Whoever said that a pact dedicated to hiding information about the multiverses before this one had to be primordial? :smallwink:

[afroakuma]

Really? I thought he was just some vampire that ascended, but the first one... Is there any information about how he became a vampire, how he ascended to divinity, what his race was before and how long ago it happened?

It's not the most reliable story, since it draws on creation mythology and we all know how inconsistent that is, but one record paints him as a human god of some nature or other, possibly a demipower, who grew envious of the Seldarine and their creations and stole the vital force and inner beauty from the divine lifeblood being used to shape elves on whichever world, resulting in the emergence of the first vampires, whose curse propagated as they hungered to replace what had been stolen from them by Kanchelsis. No, there are no more details about anything described above, so don't ask.


sorry if it's confusing, I just find it facinating that good and evil won't let yugoloths and guardanials become unique, but it will let elementals.

See that's what you actually meant to ask, so you should have just asked that. There's no prohibition against guardinals and yugoloths being unique, they simply don't become unique by adding more of themselves to themselves - that would be silly. Why there aren't any natural ones that we know of is because neither pure good nor pure evil find a need for distinction either for purposes of hierarchy (law) or individuality (chaos). Yugoloths don't like seeing others rise above themselves because they're all petty and filled with spite, while guardinals lack ambition and a desire to be apart from others.


are you familiar with the world of rwby?

Nope.


According to 2nd ed Planescape material, Mephits are short-lived beings created by magic*. The 3rd edition monster manual has no such information, and 3rd ed sources seem to treat them as standard outsiders that have always been, have "normal" (for outsiders) life cycles, and even reproduce and have young offspring (see entries on the Mirror Mephit in EttDwP).

How would you rectify this seeming discrepancy for a 3.5 Planescape-influenced setting (ala Lord of the Iron Fortress, Bastion of Broken Souls, and Expedition to the Demonweb Pits)?

Well, first of all, remember that the transition to 3E involved a major cosmic shift, so discrepancies tend to be covered up to some extent by that reordering. That said, even within 2E Planescape materials, both presentations of mephits exist, and I don't think it's actually a discrepancy. Mephits may have been created via magic, but they're not described as short-lived. It's quite likely that mephits managed to find ways to escape back to their planes of origin, where as beings of magic and elemental nature they happened to thrive and replicate (after all, they're not hard to make). Hell, the self-proclaimed "rulers" of Magma and Smoke are the mephits Chlimbia and Ehkahk, respectively.


On a related note, how are Mirror Mephits summoned (Summon Mirror Mephit, EttDwP p. 209) from the Plane of Mirrors, since the PoM has no connection to any of the transitive planes (no access to the Astral, Ethereal, or Shadow planes)?

The Plane of Mirrors is a strange place, effectively a Transitive Plane in its own right, connecting to mirrors. The spell uses a mirror as a medium, creating a conduit for the mirror mephit to manifest through. A spellcaster with Eschew Materials who can cast this spell has figured out how to address the mirror from a distance, such that its properties can be brought forth without having it near at hand for the specific purpose of summoning a mirror mephit.


what artifacts are possessed by lords of the nine that are not mentioned in the fiendish codex 2?

That question is excessively open-ended with regards to how much digging I'd have to do. If we're talking about minor artifacts, the category isn't a useful distinction - most of the Lords of the Nine could reasonably possess copies of most minor artifacts, since they are not unique. If we're talking about major artifacts, you already know about those relevant from a personal combat standpoint. Anything else should be left up to the DM.


and why is a shriver a magical location?

This is a confusing question. I assume you mean "instead of a magic item or artifact," to which you and I already know the answer is "because the author of the book wanted to make use of magical locations." Since I'm sure that won't satisfy you, I'll go with "because it's not something which is used." It's an assembly line of pain, a conveyor belt of suffering, a collection of elements that together form a machine at the heart of a factory of fear.


Since he's not a god though, I'm guessing he doesn't have a separate divine realm.

He does not.


Does he have a base somewhere?

Nope. Some Athar like to believe he has a throne, but that's just a rumor.


does he stay near a particular dead god?

No. The Guardian of Dead Gods is not findable. He chooses to manifest only when he needs to. He does not make himself available to be sought out.


Also, what race is his proxy?

Human.


so whats the deal with storm elementals? do they have any lore besides the MM3?

No.


are there elemental monotliths and primal storm elementals, which one can imply from their progression being the same as normal air elementals?

Sure why not.


Is there any credence to the theory that the Demiplane of Shadow becoming the third Transitive is a divine act to obscure the true third transitive

No.


What's the Spire(Outlands) made of? [/COLOR]I've read faith, which sounds... weird but thematically appropriate.

Technically everything on the Outer Planes is made of faith. :smalltongue: The Spire is made of nondescript stone of some type, or at least appears to be.


Are the Githzerai some kind of creator/first race of the multiverse? Were they race-ing before it was cool?[/COLOR]

Not even a little bit. The githzerai are descended from the "forerunners," a humanoid race from the now-dead planet Pharagos, which was invaded by illithids. Their history paints them as older than some races (the gith rebellion took place something like ten thousand years ago) but they were anticipated by many other entities, most especially aboleths, who still have the best claim to being the first mortal race. By accident, mind you, but hey.

[QUOTE]Care to share the dark on the power who's spine was redecorated as Khin-Oin?

We don't actually know anything about that deity, though an old fan theory on Mimir.net suggested it was an evil deity named Xolotl who irritated other gods to the point that they tore him into pieces and gave them into the charge of various fiends. This has no basis in canon and I don't support it, but anyway.


I probably hold to some misconception concerning the pact.

The pact was signed by those who know something, whether or not they knew something from personal observation. It's quite possible that there were ancient githzerai leaders who had seen some stuff, maaaaan.

[rigsmal]

This is a bit of a stretch for the topic of the thread.

But does anything elucidate further on Factol Montgomery's long-term plans for Sigil? The Factol's Manifesto says in no uncertain terms that she intends to elevate everyone in the city according to the philosophy of the Sensates, "shucking their physical bodies". But what precisely is the mechanism of this? And what information is inside The Secret History of Sigil that Duke Darkwood might use against the Lady of Pain?

Anyhow, thanks for all your answers. They're very well-formulated.

[afroakuma]

This is a bit of a stretch for the topic of the thread.

But does anything elucidate further on Factol Montgomery's long-term plans for Sigil?

Nope.


And what information is inside The Secret History of Sigil that Duke Darkwood might use against the Lady of Pain?

Darkwood found, either within those volumes or another source, a tale about a being who once confronted the Lady of Pain and was sealed within a gemstone rather than being slaughtered or mazed. His agents followed this record and eventually recovered the gem in question. It was not a good plan.

[JoeyTheNeko]

ha. not, it definitely was not. but then, no plan to take sigil away from the lady is a good one.
besides darkwoods, aoskars and vecnas, have there been any other noteable attempts to take sigil away from the lady?

[afroakuma]

besides darkwoods, aoskars and vecnas, have there been any other noteable attempts to take sigil away from the lady?

Technically yes, but technically no. So, no.

[JoeyTheNeko]

we have gods of lichs, gods of vampires..
any notable mummy gods? or gods of other sentient and ensouled undead?

[Naanomi]

Technically yes, but technically no. So, no.
I seem to remember discussion that both sides of the War of Law and Chaos made a cursory run at it when Sigil was first 'discovered'; to use as a war-base in the conflict... obviously never really went anywhere

[JoeyTheNeko]

so why did nerul, a power of murder, create a living creature? (the garngraths) it just seems odd that he would make any living thing, and not like, an undead thing.

[afroakuma]

we have gods of lichs, gods of vampires..
any notable mummy gods?

Does Osiris count? :smalltongue:


or gods of other sentient and ensouled undead?

Doresain, King of Ghouls... annnnnd that's about it.


so why did nerul, a power of murder, create a living creature? (the garngraths)

He didn't. Erythnul did. :smallconfused:

[JoeyTheNeko]

bah put the wrong god. still doesn't make sense for a power of murder to create a living race.

[afroakuma]

bah put the wrong god. still doesn't make sense for a power of murder to create a living race.

He's not a god of murder, so pull the other one. I don't think your position is defensible in se, for that matter.

[JoeyTheNeko]

ah, must go back through my books. guess I got hairs crossed. my bad.

[rigsmal]

More questions:

Why and when did Her Serenity start mazing? Supposedly she didn't always have this ability, so where did it come from?

When did humans first appear in the multiverse? What timescale are we talking about here?

What happens if I, standing on the material plane Toril, magically protect myself against the elements and fly straight up? Do I reach space?