OK, I know this looks bad...

[Vinyadan]

...but wait until I blow up the whole damn pyramid! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0861.html)

:roy:

Go Roy, you really are one of us :biggrin:

(In case you are wondering, it refers to the last panel of 861 and Roy's assurance to the Draketeeth that he would put their bodies back together with their souls back inside, after having cleft them in two (or more).)

[martianmister]

Roy, caring about a bunch of NPCs? Not gonna happen. :smallwink:

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Hey, there's always True Res...one day...

[Kish]

I think the ending of the comic including "and the Order arranged for everyone not blatantly evil who had died along the way to be True Resurrected" is unlikely.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I think the ending of the comic including "and the Order arranged for everyone not blatantly evil who had died along the way to be True Resurrected" is unlikely.

Yeah, I suppose it might possibly serve as poor story telling for all wrongs to be righted and for there to have been no real sacrifices over the course of the story. :smallbiggrin:

[Yendor]

I think the ending of the comic including "and the Order arranged for everyone not blatantly evil who had died along the way to be True Resurrected" is unlikely.

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Eugene.png "Does this look like Dragonball Z to you?"

[INoKnowNames]

....could someone -do- that, with a spell? If someone can Genocide out an entire population (the same population Roy's promising to fix up), couldn't someone else bring them back?

[goodpeople25]

....could someone -do- that, with a spell? If someone can Genocide out an entire population (the same population Roy's promising to fix up), couldn't someone else bring them back?
Possibly, I remember previous posts/thread(s) on that subject here, but I can't recall any conclusions made and my practical D&D skills are pretty much nill.

[Menarker]

....could someone -do- that, with a spell? If someone can Genocide out an entire population (the same population Roy's promising to fix up), couldn't someone else bring them back?

I'd argue that such a spell would be more impractical than Genocide, if only on the basis that it'd result in angering many gods who have been harvesting souls to empower/feed themselves (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19683734&postcount=45). The occasional soul here and there going back temporarily, the gods can let slide since it'll encourage the masses to be loyal to them in exchange for these miracles. But a mass chain resurrection? If the gods using souls for energy can be compared to raising their worshipers like cattle for the sake of reaping the soul energy in the afterlife for metaphorical soul-steaks, then anyone using mass-resurrection would be the equivalent of a thieving cattle rustler depriving the gods of their power.

Hell, by that logic most gods (the non-good ones) would be thrilled at the concept of Familicide to speed-up the amount of souls they can attain at a given time (although the quality of each soul would suffer due to being plucked before a natural end.)

One could also argue that there is only so many generations that a chain-resurrection could attempt to revive until it would fail since souls in the afterlife will eventually lose the characteristics that makes them an individual, increasingly being more of a cookie-cut clone of the God's preferred alignment energy until they are either directly absorbed as said energy or basically a soul version of a potato battery (creating energy and not having any autonomy or even sentience of their own). (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19683417&postcount=34). In other words, a total nullification of the self as an end result. At that point, there isn't anything left of an actual individual's soul to resurrect any more.

Heh, this would make an interesting roleplaying setting premise, explaining why ancient knowledge can't be called upon by just true-resurrecting legendary figures of ages past and interviewing them (or any variants of 'Speak With Dead' that doesn't require a body if there is a spell like that.) I'd also wonder what would happen when trying to ressurrect someone who had already started to devolve into a soul-battery but was ressurrected before it was completed. Would be kinda like lobotomy if it proceeded far enough...

[Quebbster]

Hell, by that logic most gods (the non-good ones) would be thrilled at the concept of Familicide to speed-up the amount of souls they can attain at a given time (although the quality of each soul would suffer due to being plucked before a natural end.)
Tiamat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0667.html) certainly didn't seem to be too pleased (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html) with the Familicide spell, despite being an Evil goddess.

[Vinyadan]

I think there are two factors:

Personal power of the gods, which is increased for a limited time by new souls from the dead

And power of their church or number of their believers on the material plane. We know that in this setting believers can create the gods. And the gods would likely be unhappy, if their church suddenly shrunk - like Tiamat saw happen to her.

Anyway, resurrection requires consent from the soul. I'm not sure holy potatoes could give it. Normal resurrection spells also have time limits: true resurrection is 10 years per caster level. This sets a hard limit for non epic casters (there are ways to increase spell levels, but not to infinity). In other words, it is possible that there is no way to resurrect someone that far into illumination, because too much time has passed.

One example of epic resurrection spell: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/contingentResurrection.htm

I am not very good with the rules, however, in case someone can correct me.

[Kish]

....could someone -do- that, with a spell? If someone can Genocide out an entire population (the same population Roy's promising to fix up), couldn't someone else bring them back?
Theoretically speaking, there are no limits to what someone can do with an epic-level spell, only "that'll raise the spellcraft DC even higher."

Whether 1) any of the Order or anyone allied with them will be a Haerta-level spellcaster by the end of the story, 2) that person will want to cast an "I True Resurrect everyone nonevil who's died for the past two years or so," and 3) Rich would want to write that even if, somehow, it was logical...those are much more questionable.

[Jay R]

I think the ending of the comic including "and the Order arranged for everyone not blatantly evil who had died along the way to be True Resurrected" is unlikely.
Yeah, I suppose it might possibly serve as poor story telling for all wrongs to be righted and for there to have been no real sacrifices over the course of the story. :smallbiggrin:

Besides, if that happened, there would be no need for the proviso added to the answer to Elan's question (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html).

[JennTora]

Just adding for clarification that the epic casting rules don't even really have the same dividers between arcane and divine anymore. It's possible for an epic wizard or sorcerer to make an epic resurrection spell.

But i think the Eugene smiley has it right. This isn't dragon ball z. Vaarsuvius probably won't make it to that level, though if v did it might make an interesting atonement for V to make such a resurrection spell by adding oodles of backlash damage to mitigate. I'm not sure that would be very true neutral though.

[Kish]

In light of the depths to which Vaarsuvius has sunk, if they want to not see Hades upon dying, they'd better forget about their actions being True Neutral at best and aim for at least one being epicly Exalted Good.

[RatElemental]

Just adding for clarification that the epic casting rules don't even really have the same dividers between arcane and divine anymore. It's possible for an epic wizard or sorcerer to make an epic resurrection spell.

I was sure I'd seen something saying you couldn't use life or heal as an arcane caster unless it was of the "make a new living thing entirely" variety somewhere, but my search came up empty. I did find it might be harder for them though, as to develop a spell you need to make a knowledge check appropriate for the spell and the caster's class, and heal or life seeds always make the resulting spell divine. Whether that means an arcane caster has to make a knowledge(religion) instead of a knowledge(arcana) check or if they have to make both, I'm not entirely clear on.

[JennTora]

I was sure I'd seen something saying you couldn't use life or heal as an arcane caster unless it was of the "make a new living thing entirely" variety somewhere, but my search came up empty. I did find it might be harder for them though, as to develop a spell you need to make a knowledge check appropriate for the spell and the caster's class, and heal or life seeds always make the resulting spell divine. Whether that means an arcane caster has to make a knowledge(religion) instead of a knowledge(arcana) check or if they have to make both, I'm not entirely clear on.

A wizard is likely to have religion as high or almost as high as arcana. Especially since it gives them information on undead that they fight. Also all knowledges are based on intelligence, which wizards will have higher than clerics. So actually, it's more likely to be easier for them than harder.

[TidePriestess]

In light of the depths to which Vaarsuvius has sunk, if they want to not see Hades upon dying, they'd better forget about their actions being True Neutral at best and aim for at least one being epicly Exalted Good.
The alignment system doesn't work that way; an alignment isn't made of deeds, it's an outlook that deeds just happen to show. Shifting alignment can be tough, but not quite that tough.

[hamishspence]

Afterlife destination and Alignment aren't always exactly tied together. If your deeds are evil enough, and you die without having tried to atone for those specific deeds (which generally means apologising to those you've wronged, to begin with) - you might go to the Lower Planes regardless of having a non-evil alignment.

Fiendish Codex 2 describes this - mostly focusing on Baator - but it's plausible that it might apply to the other planes as well, to some degree.

[RatElemental]

A wizard is likely to have religion as high or almost as high as arcana. Especially since it gives them information on undead that they fight. Also all knowledges are based on intelligence, which wizards will have higher than clerics. So actually, it's more likely to be easier for them than harder.

I did say arcane casters, so your average sorcerer might have trouble with a divine epic spell. Bit irrelevant in OotS though, as the only sorcerer likely to be tossing around epic spells isn't exactly the type to try mass resurrecting people.

[The MunchKING]

A wizard is likely to have religion as high or almost as high as arcana. Especially since it gives them information on undead that they fight. Also all knowledges are based on intelligence, which wizards will have higher than clerics. So actually, it's more likely to be easier for them than harder.

The problem is 2 + INT Modifier. and they need Knowledge (Arcana) and Spellcraft, so that's their 2.

[Kish]

The alignment system doesn't work that way; an alignment isn't made of deeds, it's an outlook that deeds just happen to show. Shifting alignment can be tough, but not quite that tough.
I confess I'm rather puzzled by how determined you seem, not to refute the charge that Vaarsuvius committed an atrocity of nightmarish proportions, but to...kind of legislate it into irrelevance.

You are free to decide that there's nothing wrong with Vaarsuvius if they simply revert to being the arrogant, conceited, somewhat sadistic but not horrifyingly genocidal character they were when they were first introduced without doing anything to make up for the mass-murder, but your insistence that I should join you there is unwelcome.

[Riftwolf]

The problem is 2 + INT Modifier. and they need Knowledge (Arcana) and Spellcraft, so that's their 2.

...
In 3.5, you get extra skill points based on Intelligence. Wizards primary stat. So Wizards get more than 2 skills. I tend to take one point Professions and Crafts.
Unless you're talking about sorcerers.

[The MunchKING]

...
In 3.5, you get extra skill points based on Intelligence. Wizards primary stat. So Wizards get more than 2 skills. I tend to take one point Professions and Crafts.
Unless you're talking about sorcerers.

Well, yes. I SAID "2 + Int Modifier". I am just pointing out they only get 2 free skills and the rest require high INT. And most people I have seen play find other skills more appropriate to their character (and more useful in keeping them alive) than Knowledge (religion).

[TidePriestess]

I confess I'm rather puzzled by how determined you seem, not to refute the charge that Vaarsuvius committed an atrocity of nightmarish proportions, but to...kind of legislate it into irrelevance.

You are free to decide that there's nothing wrong with Vaarsuvius if they simply revert to being the arrogant, conceited, somewhat sadistic but not horrifyingly genocidal character they were when they were first introduced without doing anything to make up for the mass-murder, but your insistence that I should join you there is unwelcome.
Well, there's no point in refuting it. It obviously happened, and it's probably unfixable. But Vaarsuvius isn't the character they once were, so I'm not too concerned about that either.

Besides, the only way Vaarsuvius could directly make up for it is to create some kind of reverse Familicide, assuming OotS even lets that happen with arcane power. To do that, V needs an epic caster level, which requires a lot more XP, which in turn means that V's current adventuring is, at this point in time, actually the action most likely to lead to the greatest possible good.

[JennTora]

Well, yes. I SAID "2 + Int Modifier". I am just pointing out they only get 2 free skills and the rest require high INT. And most people I have seen play find other skills more appropriate to their character (and more useful in keeping them alive) than Knowledge (religion).

How useful knowledge(religion) is in keeping you alive depends on how common undead are in your campaign and how many different kinds of undead you encounter. And knowledges in general are pretty appropriate to an archetypal wizard, so whether it's appropriate to a specific wizard is an individual thing.

[The MunchKING]

Well the other thing is it's generally the Cleric's job to have the Knowledge (Religion) for undead and God-related infodumps. :D

[Vinyadan]

V claimed great knowledge of the undead back in the dungeon (the "lich binding ghouls") strip. So, in theory, he should have put some points there back then.

[Jasdoif]

I did find it might be harder for them though, as to develop a spell you need to make a knowledge check appropriate for the spell and the caster's class....The section on developing epic spells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/developingEpicSpells.htm) doesn't mention Knowledge at all.

Then again, OOTS doesn't appear to use the typical epic spell rules in the first place, so I'm not sure how much it matters.

[Yendor]

There's this: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spellsIntro.htm#epicSpellDescriptions)

Spells containing the life or heal seed are typically only available to those with 24 or more ranks in Knowledge (religion) or Knowledge (nature).

[JennTora]

Well the other thing is it's generally the Cleric's job to have the Knowledge (Religion) for undead and God-related infodumps. :D

I imagine clerics having a hard time keeping a skill maxed when likely only getting 2 skill points each level.

And I'll put it this way, what else is a wizard gonna put skill ranks into? I don't remember cross class skills being worth it very often in 3.5, so that leaves concentration, craft, decipher script, and profession.

assuming point buy, A level 1 wizard likely has 18 intelligence in 3.5, since +2s to int are less common than in pathfinder. So they'd get 24 skill points at first level. 4 in arcana and 4 in spellcraft, like you said, and then probably 4 in concentration.

Now I have 12, I might choose to buy one cross class skill rank in spot and listen, leaving 8, or two cross class skills in each, leaving 4. I can't get any more cross class skill ranks in those because the max rank for a cross class skill is (level +3)/2 now assuming i went as far as bumping spot and listen up to 2, i have 4 ranks left, which i would probably put into other knowledges besides arcana.

The only other cross class skill (besides spot and listen, for those who fear the dreaded math) I can think of off hand that might be worth it is escape artist, and since i have no idea how the grapple rules worked back in 3.5 I can't say for sure.

[Valynie]

I imagine clerics having a hard time keeping a skill maxed when likely only getting 2 skill points each level.

And I'll put it this way, what else is a wizard gonna put skill ranks into? I don't remember cross class skills being worth it very often in 3.5, so that leaves concentration, craft, decipher script, and profession.

assuming point buy, A level 1 wizard likely has 18 intelligence in 3.5, since +2s to int are less common than in pathfinder. So they'd get 24 skill points at first level. 4 in arcana and 4 in spellcraft, like you said, and then probably 4 in concentration.

Now I have 12, I might choose to buy one cross class skill rank in spot and listen, leaving 8, or two cross class skills in each, leaving 4. I can't get any more cross class skill ranks in those because the max rank for a cross class skill is (level +3)/2 now assuming i went as far as bumping spot and listen up to 2, i have 4 ranks left, which i would probably put into other knowledges besides arcana.

The only other cross class skill (besides spot and listen, for those who fear the dreaded math) I can think of off hand that might be worth it is escape artist, and since i have no idea how the grapple rules worked back in 3.5 I can't say for sure.

A level 16 Mage human or elf) starts with a 20 int if he puts all his points there . By level 16 , he has 24 Int , 30 if he has crafted a +6 headband of intellect (and why would he not? ) .
That's 12 skills by level ...
And then he strikes level 17 and begins to store 3 scrolls of wish and strikes 35 Int to finish 36 int at 20 lvl : 20 skills by level with a massive bonus to all int skills .

[JennTora]

A level 16 Mage human or elf) starts with a 20 int if he puts all his points there . By level 16 , he has 24 Int , 30 if he has crafted a +6 headband of intellect (and why would he not? ) .
That's 12 skills by level ...
And then he strikes level 17 and begins to store 3 scrolls of wish and strikes 35 Int to finish 36 int at 20 lvl : 20 skills by level with a massive bonus to all int skills .

Neat. Thank you for mathing higher level and further demonstrating my point.

[Mordaedil]

I've always found it handy to cross class open locks, but that might be because I played NWN as a wizard and being able to open chests and doors without having to cast knock (and dispelling my invisibility) was sometimes a god-send.