Players don't seem interested in fighting the villains

[Thealtruistorc]

This has been a growing concern in a campaign I've been running recently: the fact that the players are doing everything they can to avoid advancing the plot and constantly complaining about how there is no story.

There exist two main villains at this point in the story: a hedonistic vampire sorcerer named Curzio and a megalomaniacal psion named Sophia. Both of the two have competing agendas and both pose massive threats to existence (Curzio because he is methodically launching surgical strikes against every major nation to destabilize them however possible and Sophia because she possesses an army of followers with enough raw power at her back to reduce entire continents to fields of dust) and yet the players seem to be going out of there way to avoid coming into conflict with them.

I have literally given the party directions to not one but two of Curzio's strongholds, and yet the most that they've done with this information is send a squad of low-level npcs to investigate one of them (naturally, Curzio saw these idiots coming and dusted them). There have been no attempts at scrying, no attempts at infiltration save for one player who tried to run in solo and wound up wrapped around Curzio's finger, and no attempt at pursuit even when a simple detect teleport spell would have been enough to hunt him down (he literally teleported out of the room as soon as one of the players arrived in it, and the party is now 13th level). The players seem to be aware that Curzio and his comrades will eventually ruin everything that exists, but seem completely okay with this and/or accept that there is nothing they can do.

Sophia is even worse. She is recognized by the players as an even greater menace to the universe than Curzio and even has personal vendettas against several party members (she kidnapped and brainwashed one of them into serving her, and is directly responsible for multiple genocides against the races of the party members). The players know that she is currently engaged in a massive conquest, but don't do anything to investigate what she is doing or throw a wrench in her plans. It's as if they assume that the incredibly powerful BBEG thing is just going to work itself out on its own.

Now, I would be okay with the story going in a new direction, but the problem is that the players constantly gripe about how the story is going nowhere while actively seeking tangents to get them away from the conflict. Their responses to the latest atrocity committed by either villain is usually "not my problem" or "it's not like we can bring that many people back anyway. We don't even have a cleric in this party" and while I scramble to keep the campaign interesting by throwing together some new part of the setting every time they reject a storyline or plot hook. One player even had the nerve to say he was leaving the campaign because there was no story despite the fact that he is the one who actively seems to steer the party away from progress every time I place a trail of breadcrumbs down.

What do I do here? How do I get the players to actually do something before the entire setting goes to pot around them? How do I motivate them to action when they seem outright determined to commit to inaction or infighting whenever I try to develop a plotline? Am I just asking for too much from them, or is this group actually too troublesome to GM?

[Rhyltran]

This has been a growing concern in a campaign I've been running recently: the fact that the players are doing everything they can to avoid advancing the plot and constantly complaining about how there is no story.

There exist two main villains at this point in the story: a hedonistic vampire sorcerer named Curzio and a megalomaniacal psion named Sophia. Both of the two have competing agendas and both pose massive threats to existence (Curzio because he is methodically launching surgical strikes against every major nation to destabilize them however possible and Sophia because she possesses an army of followers with enough raw power at her back to reduce entire continents to fields of dust) and yet the players seem to be going out of there way to avoid coming into conflict with them.

I have literally given the party directions to not one but two of Curzio's strongholds, and yet the most that they've done with this information is send a squad of low-level npcs to investigate one of them (naturally, Curzio saw these idiots coming and dusted them). There have been no attempts at scrying, no attempts at infiltration save for one player who tried to run in solo and wound up wrapped around Curzio's finger, and no attempt at pursuit even when a simple detect teleport spell would have been enough to hunt him down (he literally teleported out of the room as soon as one of the players arrived in it, and the party is now 13th level). The players seem to be aware that Curzio and his comrades will eventually ruin everything that exists, but seem completely okay with this and/or accept that there is nothing they can do.

Sophia is even worse. She is recognized by the players as an even greater menace to the universe than Curzio and even has personal vendettas against several party members (she kidnapped and brainwashed one of them into serving her, and is directly responsible for multiple genocides against the races of the party members). The players know that she is currently engaged in a massive conquest, but don't do anything to investigate what she is doing or throw a wrench in her plans. It's as if they assume that the incredibly powerful BBEG thing is just going to work itself out on its own.

Now, I would be okay with the story going in a new direction, but the problem is that the players constantly gripe about how the story is going nowhere while actively seeking tangents to get them away from the conflict. Their responses to the latest atrocity committed by either villain is usually "not my problem" or "it's not like we can bring that many people back anyway. We don't even have a cleric in this party" and while I scramble to keep the campaign interesting by throwing together some new part of the setting every time they reject a storyline or plot hook. One player even had the nerve to say he was leaving the campaign because there was no story despite the fact that he is the one who actively seems to steer the party away from progress every time I place a trail of breadcrumbs down.

What do I do here? How do I get the players to actually do something before the entire setting goes to pot around them? How do I motivate them to action when they seem outright determined to commit to inaction or infighting whenever I try to develop a plotline? Am I just asking for too much from them, or is this group actually too troublesome to GM?

I think before anyone can help you we must ask what exactly are they doing? You mentioned that they avoid the conflict, avoid the bread crumbs, and don't follow the plot but what exactly does this entail? When you present a plot element what are the players doing?

[Jormengand]

Whenever they complain that there's no story, remind them of the two villains. Constantly remind them of the importance of the two villains until they get the hint. Make one of the villains hurt them personally or take their stuff.

[Zanos]

Probably because these people sound hilariously powerful (guessing 17-20+?) and the party is 13th level, so they'd just get obliterated if they actually tried to fight them.

[Rhyltran]

Whenever they complain that there's no story, remind them of the two villains. Constantly remind them of the importance of the two villains until they get the hint. Make one of the villains hurt them personally or take their stuff.

Sadly from the original post the op laid out one (two?) party members were outright brain washed and that didn't seem to do anything.

That being said, you mentioned one party member steers them away from the plot and even threatened to quit saying there's no story despite you trying everything in your power to show them there is. Is this a problem player? Also as Zanos mentioned could the npcs simply be too strong? Do the players find the situation hopeless? You mentioned they (got to one?) and he teleported out. Maybe they feel they can't touch them. That there's no point in trying.

[Deeds]

Communication is key. Ask them what they want. Maybe they want an NPC to literally have an exclamation point floating over his head so that there's no doubt on who's the quest giver. Maybe they want the optimization level tuned down. Maybe they'd rather join the bad guys who knows.

Here's a scary thought: let the bad guys succeed. If they refuse to oppose the bad guys then let them succeed again and again until your players are staring down Titania the End Bringer. Game over.

[Thealtruistorc]

I think before anyone can help you we must ask what exactly are they doing? You mentioned that they avoid the conflict, avoid the bread crumbs, and don't follow the plot but what exactly does this entail? When you present a plot element what are the players doing?

Here's an example from a recent session:

So the players have just finished raiding a castle and taking out a corrupt monarch to stop a civil war from erupting. They find out that Curzio's forces are there as well, and a fairly solid fight ensues. It is at the end of the fight that they discover that one of the soldiers was an old friend of one of the party members (the stalker), and so they incapacitate him to talk to later while they plunge deeper to finish the fighting. Curzio narrowly escapes with an apparently very powerful hostage (there were remains of her using a high-level spell, which none of the players bothered to investigate or identify) but leaves behind teleportation clues which anyone with proper divinations could use to track him as well as a book that contains a whole lot of powerful eldritch lore. What's more, the guy they had captured spilled a whole lot of information about both Curzio and Sophia, having worked for both and knowing a fair amount as to how both groups operate. Teleportation coordinates were given to Curzio's stronghold as well as one of Sophia's dreadnoughts, and it is possible that the agent could have revealed more information where he pushed further or divinations employed.

The players quickly forgot about the book, disregarded the information given by the captured agent, employed not a single divination in finding out more information, told not a single person about the information they obtained, and decided to go on a completely unrelated treasure hunt in the middle of the ocean (I have absolutely no idea why they did this, as neither coordinate was anywhere near where they went looting and no indication had been given at any point in the campaign that an underwater treasure hunt would benefit them in any way).

The worst part was how the players spent an hour afterwards berating me about how I wasn't doing a good job of keeping the storyline going and how there didn't seem to be any sort of point to the campaign and that they had no idea what they should do.

[Celestia]

Have the villains host an intervention for the party where they say how disappointed and hurt they are that the party keeps ignoring them. Take the players for a guilt trip. *nods*

[noob]

maybe they do not like villain driven campaigns?
ask them which kind of campaign they want: it might be just that they do not like the kind of campaign you are doing.
alternatively it is that they spent too much time reading worldbuilding forums and in those forums there is always 34534656543367YRT345 villains who can destroy the multiverse and absolutely want to and there is nothing to stop them at all but they just do nothing in the end because that is how people build worlds(yes world-builders never make worlds that are even vaguely coherent)
Look if you make a villain based campaign maybe the players think it is all ultimately pointless: they fight the villains and win and then there is villains two times stronger and with as much motivation to destroy the world that somehow were doing nothing before but that now goes on a rampage.
Even worse they will think that they inflicted greater harm by causing the plot to advance thus unleashing power-fuller villains.
So even through it is metagaming players can know that in a villain driven campaign they might inflict greater harm by defeating the current villains(even through it does not have any sense in any universe it happens because it is a rpg and in fact it is 100% true that the players are responsible for making the universe spawn stronger villains by defeating the previous ones)
In the latter case you have to promise the players that defeating the current villains will not make that stronger villains will try to destroy the world and in the former you should either leave or make a new campaign that is not villain driven.




Have the villains host an intervention for the party where they say how disappointed and hurt they are that the party keeps ignoring them. Take the players for a guilt trip. *nods*

Makes me thing a little bit about lego batman for no reason.

[Keral]

maybe they do not like villain driven campaigns?
ask them which kind of campaign they want: it might be just that they do not like the kind of campaign you are doing.
alternatively it is that they spent too much time reading worldbuilding forums and in those forums there is always 34534656543367YRT345 villains who can destroy the multiverse and absolutely want to and there is nothing to stop them at all but they just do nothing in the end because that is how people build worlds(yes world-builders never make worlds that are even vaguely coherent)
Look if you make a villain based campaign maybe the players think it is all ultimately pointless: they fight the villains and win and then there is villains two times stronger and with as much motivation to destroy the world that somehow were doing nothing before but that now goes on a rampage.
Even worse they will think that they inflicted greater harm by causing the plot to advance thus unleashing power-fuller villains.
So even through it is metagaming players can know that in a villain driven campaign they might inflict greater harm by defeating the current villains(even through it does not have any sense in any universe it happens because it is a rpg and in fact it is 100% true that the players are responsible for making the universe spawn stronger villains by defeating the previous ones)
In the latter case you have to promise the players that defeating the current villains will not make that stronger villains will try to destroy the world and in the former you should either leave or make a new campaign that is not villain driven.



Makes me thing a little bit about lego batman for no reason.

This might be the case, but if it is, based on the info given by the OP, then there is a clear communication problem.
I mean, why complain there is no story if the actual problem is that the story isn't to their liking?

[Florian]

This might be the case, but if it is, based on the info given by the OP, then there is a clear communication problem.
I mean, why complain there is no story if the actual problem is that the story isn't to their liking?

It might be the heavy focus on the two villains and the expectations what you should find out and how you should use that knowledge. See the whole instances of divination spells being expected.
That can have the effect that you feel that nothing at that table is actually about the characters, so "no story".

Edit: The "wild" side quest with the underwater treasure hunt is a good indicator.

[Bronk]

The worst part was how the players spent an hour afterwards berating me about how I wasn't doing a good job of keeping the storyline going and how there didn't seem to be any sort of point to the campaign and that they had no idea what they should do.

I think that would have been a good point to ask them why the heck they were going out into the middle of nowhere instead of following up on literally anything.

That one crazy tangent person, they're being a terrible disruption to your game. From what you've said, they're purposely deep sixing your game, and the others are going along with it. Let them go if you need to. It sounds like they're bored, and just stirring up trouble to pass the time.

Of the people who are left, I'm hoping they're not all as bad as they sound... maybe things can be turned around.

Talk to them out of game, tell them that they're not missing a story, they're avoiding it. In game, you might have to start being a bit more obvious with your exposition. If the players don't follow up on something, let an NPC do it and then tell them about it... and then remind them about it later as well.

I agree that it sounds like your NPCs have been crazy tough so far, but maybe that's because you intended the entire group to tackle them instead of just one player. If so, tell them that, and tell them that it's a team effort... That you weren't (hopefully) punishing the ones who went alone. If you intended them to just follow the BBEG and sneak around their base or something, tell them that up front. Remind them that the story isn't about them finding and killing the bosses right away, just thwart their plans and their minions for a while.

Seriously, they sound like new players. We've all been there at some point, or seen it at least, right? The player hears a description, then get overwhelmed a bit because their brain isn't filling in all the background that you think they are. "Am I... supposed to stab something? Only, it doesn't seem like it'll help. I... look around a bit I guess?" That sort of thing. You might need to give them a prod or two. "Yes, stab it. Everyone else can stab it too." Or, "Hey, don't you have the track feat?" Or, "You just saw someone teleport away hurriedly as soon as he saw you. You don't have to follow him right away, but you can cast that one spell to find out where he went." Or, "You're trying to go out into the ocean? Where exactly, and why? You've gotten no indication that there's anything of interest there." (In that last case, just say that they leave, find nothing, and come back two weeks later, taking all of two minutes real time to describe, and now the town is burning from a bad guy attack.)

I hope you can overcome this bad vibe and have some fun!

[Boozy]

Early on in DMing I learned that PC's can be like a herd of cats. They sometimes fight bridle and bit, no matter how much work you've put into it. Thing is, they're not wrong to do so.

The key thing then is: What do they like? If they want plot advancement but don't engage in yours, that's tough, but try to adapt. Maybe their more interested in their personal backstories, or they develop a rivalry with an NPC party or opponent that they tussled with. Whatever it is, run with it. Your meta plot can continue in the background, and where they overlap, fine. As long as your players are engaged and invested, you're doing your job well.

After I had a similar challenge, I learned to build the setting instead of focusing on on the plot within. It tends to work better, and a plot can later emerge organically.

[emeraldstreak]

Here's an example from a recent session:

So the players have just finished raiding a castle and taking out a corrupt monarch to stop a civil war from erupting. They find out that Curzio's forces are there as well, and a fairly solid fight ensues. It is at the end of the fight that they discover that one of the soldiers was an old friend of one of the party members (the stalker), and so they incapacitate him to talk to later while they plunge deeper to finish the fighting. Curzio narrowly escapes with an apparently very powerful hostage (there were remains of her using a high-level spell, which none of the players bothered to investigate or identify) but leaves behind teleportation clues which anyone with proper divinations could use to track him as well as a book that contains a whole lot of powerful eldritch lore. What's more, the guy they had captured spilled a whole lot of information about both Curzio and Sophia, having worked for both and knowing a fair amount as to how both groups operate. Teleportation coordinates were given to Curzio's stronghold as well as one of Sophia's dreadnoughts, and it is possible that the agent could have revealed more information where he pushed further or divinations employed.

The players quickly forgot about the book, disregarded the information given by the captured agent, employed not a single divination in finding out more information, told not a single person about the information they obtained, and decided to go on a completely unrelated treasure hunt in the middle of the ocean (I have absolutely no idea why they did this, as neither coordinate was anywhere near where they went looting and no indication had been given at any point in the campaign that an underwater treasure hunt would benefit them in any way).

The worst part was how the players spent an hour afterwards berating me about how I wasn't doing a good job of keeping the storyline going and how there didn't seem to be any sort of point to the campaign and that they had no idea what they should do.

There are parties that do NOT investigate. Either task them straight with obliterating these NPCs (as in the good King gives them a clear quest) or mothball that storyline for another day and party (regardless of how much you like it).

Edit: Come to think of it, send your players to a long treasure-hunting quest in a mysterious land of jungles, ruins, you know the tropes. Let their level, gear and self-confidence grow. Give them an intelligent artifact that will (but not immediately!) come into conflict with C/S. While they do that treasure-hunting, cut all info about world events. Let your players recover from the constant barrage of world-wide problems and failures.

[Zombulian]

These players seem to associate "story" with "things that happen to us," not things that are happening that they can interact with/stop. They may only react positively to nemesis situations or things like kidnapping where they're forced into conflicts that they have to resolve.
Are they new? If so, you seem to have fairly advanced expectation for their playstyle. They're murderhobos, not detectives.

[FreddyNoNose]

Ask the players what their characters are doing. Try not to lead or force them. By continually asking the players what their characters are doing, you might get them to focus on .... what their characters are doing. Let their actions help guide the situation. If they want to sit around and drink in a bar, let them. Let them hear rumor. Not rumors around one thing (AKA the thing you might be forcing them to do) but of a dozen different adventures.

Also, have some time where they are operating alone. Ex: The rogue is skulking around and stealing things which might lead to adventure.

This could be a situation where they feel they are being forced to do something they don't like/want to do. Also, adventures don't need to be big deals like saving the world, how about rumors of buried treasure nearby?

[Hackulator]

Things that seem obvious to you, the DM who created the story, are not always obvious to players.

How experienced are they as players? How experienced are you as a GM? How do you know these people?

It seems clear there is a massive disconnect between you and them, but with only your view and minimal information about the players and the game from an OOC perspective it is impossible to say whose "fault" it is. Do they have all these spells you say they should use? Did they create characters who it makes sense for them to be motivated to save the world? Have you ever just made a suggestion about something (ie "maybe you should try casting x")?

[noob]

also why would your universe still exist if there was no other adventuring team or whatever to get rid of some megalomaniac villains?
If there was only one team of heroes able to stop villains then 1: people would repetitively bash that team with speeches about how they are the only ones who can beat the villains and that they need them 2: the world would have been destroyed or taken over by villains a long time ago.
So you might say "oh in the end an angel army/an army of regular orcs with bows/Mercenaries employed by multiple empires pooling their money did attack the villains and got rid of them while you were ignoring them now you do not get the sweet artefacts they had and nobody knows your team as world savers and you do not get paid by any king" and then do a plot that is not based on those villains and then get again a chance of getting the heroes to participate in your new plot(like for example someone steal the players boots and then the players will probably start planning to take revenge and chase the stealer who is standing still at three meters from the team waiting for the players to see him because they have 0 in investigation(look people retreating is not something that team can manage obviously so do not use that. Just give a reason for the stealer to not flee from the adventurers because else they will never solve that problem))
I mean if your players can not manage at all a plot nor advance in it then it probably means that it was too complex or hard for them and people do not want to play a game for then being smashed by odds overwhelming them.
This is why challenges should be designed so that players can solve them with their actual abilities and not theoretical ones(like the fact the wizard could prepare a detect teleport. I mean do he even have that spell in his spell-book or even slots to prepare it? Or know about the existence of that spell?)

[Pugwampy]

Let me guess . If the hero dies , the player has to make a new one ? I see no other reason for avoiding a nice fight ,

[Tainted_Scholar]

I would not recommend this as your first tactic to get them interested, but if all else fails, steal their money. Steal all of their money (But not their equipment) and make it very clear that said money was taken to one of the villain's strongholds. If they're afraid of fighting the villain directly, then make it clear that the villain won't be at that particular stronghold. Looting the stronghold will get them on the villain's radar and allow for future interaction between the players and villain. You could also have the other villain take notice of the attack on the stronghold and have them offer an allegiance with the Players.

[Dunsparce]

I think there is some miscommunication between you and the players, I honestly think that talking to them outside of the game and explain what is going on and what you expect from them is the best bet, and more importantly hear from them what THEY expect out of the game.

I feel trying to fix this problem via In-character fidgeting is the absolute worst way to do it.

[Boozy]

I think there is some miscommunication between you and the players, I honestly think that talking to them outside of the game and explain what is going on and what you expect from them is the best bet, and more importantly hear from them what THEY expect out of the game.

I feel trying to fix this problem via In-character fidgeting is the absolute worst way to do it.

Agreed. A mid campaign sit down and assessment sounds good. Rather than pushing the narrative in discussion, I'd recommend asking them to describe their favorite moments to date in the campaign. You'll see what's connecting. From there, you either incorporate your impression into your sessions, or be more direct and ask them what they'd like to challenge or accomplish. A mid campaign moment is also a good time for new characters to be allowed, as the players adjust to the setting and style.

[Tainted_Scholar]

I would agree that this would be best solved out of the game.

[TheifofZ]

I'd agree that discussing the campaign right now is important.
Discussing the currently ignored plot, what they expected instead, and so on, might help you 'tune up' the game to be more enjoyable for everyone involved.

Just spend the time to be clear with everyone when you do.

[P.F.]

I think there are a couple noteworthy things.

First, the villains are too powerful. Even if they aren't too powerful, they are too powerful. Your players don't want to confront them directly because they always fail or lose. When they get caught alone with him/her they get God-moded into helping the villain; when they team up on the villain s/he escapes. Pointless.

Let the villains be less personally involved. Instead, have a crude and incompetent chump, "who works for Curzio" do bad things to the king the players like, who they can execute or imprison at the end of the session.

Second, the plot isn't capturing their imaginations. If it were they wouldn't be complaining that it doesn't exist.

What are the player-characters' long-term goals? Does the story directly relate to the players' own ideas about their characters' histories and hopes and fears? Do they get chances (lots and lots of chances) to use the spells and abilities that they find interesting? Do the adventures take them to exotic locales and have them fight new and interesting (to them) opponents? Were there any hints or warning signs that they might have wanted a plot that included an undersea adventure?

[noob]

I periodically think about the possibility to either go in another dimension and open a shop or to the possibility to start digging toward the place where all the imprisoned people are or just about building a village with stone walls.
I mean if the whole team did think like me the result on the campaign would be a whole lot of randomness.(and even more digging than what there currently is: I wonder sometimes if I am playing dnd or minecraft but with groups of four titans instead of ore and scry and die wizards teams that have something like 20 wizards (I mean four titans it is like most ore veins in minecraft) the advantage is that there is more monsters in this game than there is ores in minecraft)

[afroakuma]

I think there may be a foundational problem at work here.

I could be wrong, of course, but from what I've read it sounds like there's a story you've designed and it's just not interesting to them. The kind of story you've set out to tell is not the kind of story they engage with, and as a result they can't see the forest for the trees.

To put it simply: it's time to move on.

Talk to your players about what they're looking for in a story, what it is they are after. Curzio and Sophia don't appear to hold any interest for them. It's entirely reasonable for them to feel like "Curzio's done another bad thing again!" has less momentum or purpose than the Apocalypse Moon will rise unless we slay the Fraznat and deduce the location of the Shards of Stel-Barite using its entrails! Why? Cause it does. One of those is a suggestion to go plug a leky (if malicious) faucet, the other is a defined call to action which sets out immediate goals, longer-term plans and a defined consequence for failure.

I've learned the hard way through numerous campaigns that my deep, subtle, sandboxy and elaborately-plotted storylines can fly like a brick if that's not what the players are after. Note carefully: not what they say they want, but what they actually want. It's not a foolproof process, and the goal is not to slog through months of gameplay to reach a sudden reveal that hopefully makes all the disengagement to this point worth it. The goal is to have fun.

Find out where the mismatch is, and brace yourself for finding out that they're looking for a sea change. That many not be the case, but it's worth anticipating. Good luck!

[tedcahill2]

Something similar to this happened recently in a campaign I played in. The DM had laid out a bunch of storylines, some pertaining to a particular character and their back story, but all of the players, myself included, felt lost and didn't know how to move the story along.

We discussed all of this with the DM and, in this case, decided to end the story and let someone else DM for a bit (mind you this was our first time playing as a group in 10 years so we chalked it up to "group recalibration").

During the discussion though here's what we discovered: even though the DM had laid out a bunch of bread crumbs for us, we all had the same opinion, none of us felt like the bread crumbs were our problem. There was no one paying us for a job, nothing we cared about was threatened, their just wasn't anything that made us want to follow the clues we had.

[Mordaedil]

Well, first of all, it doesn't seem like they have any good motivation to fight these people. No, the extinction of existence is not good enough. That's actually really subpar for motivation.

You have to make it personal. Take something of the players, hurt them in some way, or at least be of such a clear opposition that they will realize they won't be left alone unless they beeline to these antagonists and kick their asses.

Secondly, you've set up these villains as a serious threat and apparently not given them any glimpse of a way to win or deal with them. A good villain has a weakness or a way for the heroes to exploit a weakness in the villains set-up.

So the lessons here are; make it personal and give them hope that they can overcome it, even if it is a fake hope. Similar to in the comic on this very website where Roy gets disruption cast on his greatsword before he goes to fight Xykon for the first time, only to have his sword shattered.

Do this.

[weckar]

How exactly is it the job of the PCs to take on either of these threats, let alone both, if the power available to either of them outclasses the group by orders of magnitude? :smallconfused:

[Godskook]

1.Your PCs are entering a section of the game that, if they're struggling with what you're doing now, they'll grow more problems over time. I *STRONGLY* suggest stopping this campaign, starting a new campaign in the same world that explores other character arcs, and *MAYBE* come back to these heroes later. Start the new campaign at low-levels, and consider E6, or a variant for that game. This will help the PCs get used to the fundamentals of D&D in a more controlled environment.

2.Add new villains that are lesser threats to the PCs, and gradually increase the threat-level, allowing the PCs to grow into using high-level tools more naturally. Remember, Xykon wasn't the first recurring villain the OotS faced, and he went *VERY* easy on them in their first meeting. After that, various lesser threats pop up from time to time that aren't just cannon fodder.

[Zanos]

I have literally given the party directions to not one but two of Curzio's strongholds, and yet the most that they've done with this information is send a squad of low-level npcs to investigate one of them (naturally, Curzio saw these idiots coming and dusted them). There have been no attempts at scrying, no attempts at infiltration save for one player who tried to run in solo and wound up wrapped around Curzio's finger, and no attempt at pursuit even when a simple detect teleport spell would have been enough to hunt him down (he literally teleported out of the room as soon as one of the players arrived in it, and the party is now 13th level). The players seem to be aware that Curzio and his comrades will eventually ruin everything that exists, but seem completely okay with this and/or accept that there is nothing they can do.
I forgot to comment on this on my first post but it just reaffirms that the villains are too powerful for your PCs to deal with, or if they're not they seem like they are to the players. All attempts to interfere with them have been met with utter, abject failure. Sending some NPCs to take a look results in the NPCs being obliterated completely. Sending a PC to investigate results in what I'm guessing is permanent mind control, and usually only one PC has the abilities necessary for scouting anyway. When they caught up with him, he just disappeared. Detect teleportation is actually a psionic power, not a spell, so there's a good chance nobody in the party can use it, even if one of them was a psion. Not all groups can, or necessarily even want to, play at these levels of trickiness.


Secondly, you've set up these villains as a serious threat and apparently not given them any glimpse of a way to win or deal with them. A good villain has a weakness or a way for the heroes to exploit a weakness in the villains set-up.
This isn't always the case. If a level 20 badguy exists in my setting and the PCs are level 1, there's probably not any weaknesses that they could reasonably exploit to close that gap. But I wouldn't prop that guy up as the main villain, I would expect the PCs to avoid him and wouldn't have him go after them directly until much later, if at all. In my experience it's very difficult to set up a campaign villain at super low levels and take the campaign all the way with the same main villain until later levels.

[Telok]

Been there, suffered those murderhobos. No investigation, no questions, no talking to NPCs, no curiosity, just "what do we kill and loot next?"

If the players will not come to the plot then the plot will come to the players. They're off chasing treasure in the middle of the ocean? There’s a magic gee-gaw in the treasure that the villains want and they've both sent parties to get it. Now the players are in a 3-way race/fight to grab the treasure. The PCs will not get this treasure, or at least not the magic items and gems (gold is relatively unimportant at this level because the amount you need weighs a lot, 100,000 gp is literally a ton of gold).

Note: The villain teams should have scrolls of teleport, dimensional anchor or another TP blocker, and a teleport tracer. These should be used in front of the PCs. Have at least one fight where someone tries to TP out and is blocked. Have another fight where someone TPs out, then is traced and followed. If the PCs teleport out let them get away, and immediately follow them one minute later (they probably still need to win this one).

The party goes somewhere else for treasure? Villains. The party goes to help an old friend? Killed by the villains. Need to rescue someone? In one of the villains dungeons.

You should probably not do a Doppleganger Funtime Mask Party yet.

[Mordaedil]

This isn't always the case. If a level 20 badguy exists in my setting and the PCs are level 1, there's probably not any weaknesses that they could reasonably exploit to close that gap. But I wouldn't prop that guy up as the main villain, I would expect the PCs to avoid him and wouldn't have him go after them directly until much later, if at all. In my experience it's very difficult to set up a campaign villain at super low levels and take the campaign all the way with the same main villain until later levels.

I've always gone with the idea that my villains are part of an organisation working for someone more powerful than them. In advance, I start with a deity, go down to a demon, to the mortal making a contract with said demon, to the mortals generals, to their lieutenants, to the captains that command the first fall guy that the players will be set to defeat. I plan for each of these tiers of villains to escape and if they succeed, they ally themselves with the villain next up the chain, where they will fight until death or surrender. But the brilliant part of this setup is that I can also allow the players to win and kill the villain before he escapes without upsetting my future plans.

If all goes well for the heroes, they don't fight the final boss at all and I always have a larger hierarchy of villains to draw from without losing that idea of a recurring villain. This is something I do by default regardless of what kind of adventure I have, but this also allows me to have villains that the players can always feel like they can beat within reach, but they only gradually realize what they are exactly walking into much later.

Basically, I agree, the same villain isn't going to work all of those levels between.

[Nupo]

Your players aren't interested in your plot, it's just that simple. You either need to make the plot more interesting to them, or get a new one. I would suggest getting a new one. Maybe expand on the undersea adventure they gravitated toward. You should never have to push your players toward your plot. If it's good they will charge toward it. This doesn't mean your plot isn't good, it just means it isn't good for this group.

[Alcore]

Time to pack it in.


1. All their efforts (feeble as they might seem to you) have met in utter failure.
2. They care more about simple wandering than your bosses.
3. They don't sound like dectives or now believe it's pointless.


Say "good game" and go back to the drawing board. See what worked or clicked for them and see what caused the most universal disappointment.

[King539]

I've seen this so many times.

A DM saying that there's something they don't like with their player(s).

A player saying their's something they don't like with their DM.

They often forget the one most crucial step: TALK TO THE PLAYERS!!!

Really. Do it.

[Zanos]

It seems pretty clear to me the players did make an effort to engage the plot, they were just rebuffed and suffered for it pretty badly each time. They were actively discouraged.

[Calthropstu]

Whenever they complain that there's no story, remind them of the two villains. Constantly remind them of the importance of the two villains until they get the hint. Make one of the villains hurt them personally or take their stuff.

The fastest way to get pc's to act is to to steal their stuff.

[lord_khaine]

I forgot to comment on this on my first post but it just reaffirms that the villains are too powerful for your PCs to deal with, or if they're not they seem like they are to the players. All attempts to interfere with them have been met with utter, abject failure. Sending some NPCs to take a look results in the NPCs being obliterated completely. Sending a PC to investigate results in what I'm guessing is permanent mind control, and usually only one PC has the abilities necessary for scouting anyway. When they caught up with him, he just disappeared. Detect teleportation is actually a psionic power, not a spell, so there's a good chance nobody in the party can use it, even if one of them was a psion. Not all groups can, or necessarily even want to, play at these levels of trickiness.

I do think this is a really good point. The party has been burned twice by Curzio. And you are then complaining about why they dont poke him?
That could send the signal to the players that this guy is to powerful to mess with. Especially since apperently the guy who tried to scout him lost his character. Actually, i do wonder if that is the ocean player now?

[Florian]

The fastest way to get pc's to act is to to steal their stuff.

Kindergarten-level advice.

[Tainted_Scholar]

Kindergarten-level advice.

It still works, but that doesn't necessarily make it a good idea.

[Alcore]

It still works, but that doesn't necessarily make it a good idea.

Quite right.... Since they already appear agitated. It won't go well even on good days :smallfrown:

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Based on your side of the story, I see 3 options:

1 They figure these two are threats for later. The party is not strong enough to fight them right now, so no matter what they do now, they will be directed to the big final fight later when they're ready. They interpret a villain cunningly escaping as a plot rail, obviously they're not meant to follow him. (Not the strangest conclusion, if they already tried following them twice and ended up dominated for their troubles both times.) A possible solution to this is to give them villainous plans they can stop now. Give the less scary vampire 3 henchmen(/women). A young vampire who would be a bit of a crown prince if vampires weren't immortal, some big brute, a werewolf or a demon or something, and something with some flavor, a magical swashbuckler with just a hint of seductress. Make them level 15 at most, maybe even 12. Give them some sort of introduction, no hiding in the shadows, but a real unsubtle team Rocket reveal. Make sure the players get they can take these guys. Now if you tell them "someone saw the big guy sniff around at the palace, just now when the king of Somewhere is about to make a visit" they will recognize a fight they can take. When the time comes for them to face the real villain, let them have a nice final battle with the miniboss squad, if those haven't been taken care off already.

2 They don't like investigations. They figure they're in an action game. There's not much you can do about that, rather than be blunt. "He's over there." - "Thanks."

3 They don't have the same grasp of the magic system that you do. They don't know they can track a teleport, or are unsure when they can do it. A possible solution here is to try and make the investigations more straightforward. Or rather, more comprehensible to people who think about what batman would do in a situation, rather than mentally go over their spell list. It's easy to make a mystery too hard to solve, and the problem compounds when you're thinking off solutions they don't know about. Try to always have 3 next steps ready, say find the hideout directly, talk to the guy who knows the hideout from being employed by the vampire earlier or raid the lair of a competing vampire for more clues. Then for each of these steps, have at least 3 clues pointing that way. So there's a map in the guards pocket with an unknown location marked, there is a half readable return address (hey, I don't know the details of your setting) on an unused envelope in a desk, and it's not the current location, and there is a horse outside that will actually run to the place when you approach it. Those clues all point to the hideout, and then there's 2x3 more clues. Yes, running mysteries can be a lot of work.

Finally, maybe just push their noses in it. You don't want your plot spoiled, that's understandable, but if they "berate" you for an hour, maybe they're just not seeing it. If you calmly explain some of the plot ooc that you already tried to feed them ic they might actually be pleasantly surprised. So details matter in this world, wow.

As others said, I'd begin by talking to your players to find out what the problem actually is and take it from there. But those are the options I can think off.

[Bucky]

Make the conflict more personal. The party wants to hunt treasure? Send a squad to stalk the party and fight them for it or steal it. Defeating the squad means it'll be replaced by a new one with the same mooks but a different leader about a week. Make it clear Curzio is sending them to appropriate the party's gains for himself. Make it clear, after a few iterations, that Curzio doesn't want to show himself directly, but that the squads will keep coming until the party sets his theft squads' staging area on fire.

Try to give them a real antagonist to face off against, one that has some level-appropriate ways to escape death but that keeps coming back until they find a way to trap him and beat him up.

[Jay R]

Why do they have to decide to go find the villains?

In my experience, players are always willing to fight the villain that attacks them.

[tadkins]

Sophia is even worse. She is recognized by the players as an even greater menace to the universe than Curzio and even has personal vendettas against several party members (she kidnapped and brainwashed one of them into serving her, and is directly responsible for multiple genocides against the races of the party members). The players know that she is currently engaged in a massive conquest, but don't do anything to investigate what she is doing or throw a wrench in her plans. It's as if they assume that the incredibly powerful BBEG thing is just going to work itself out on its own.



Yikes! If all that doesn't motivate your PCs into stopping her, then I don't think anything will.

[Zakerst]

So here's my two copper on it. You have two villains who are opposed and wildly out class the PCs. From the perspective of the PCs they likely seem unbeatable, they get close and they get snubbed either they get away or they just lose. Also do they use divination at all, do they even know they have it at their disposal? It's easy to say use the crescent wrench, but if they don't know they have a crescent wrench or don't know how to use it it's not doing them any good.

Likewise all the plot seems to be BBEG does a thing. Aww you got close to getting him and he got away. Oh well maybe next time? Here have some clues to find him. But here's the thing do the players even stand a chance in a stand up fight or will he just get away again even if they went to fight him?

Another thought they may be the kind to think that they can do whatever and the plot should find them. Also why do they even have the option to ignore the plot if you don't want them to? You are the GM if you want to throw them on the rails do it. I get that you want them to be interested in the villans but, well they're not either because they don't think they can win, or that kind of story just doesn't interest them. They might just not want to have to do any investigating. E.g. if I have to waste 5 spells just to figure out where BBEG is then I won't have any to fight him. If we don't have spells to fight him we're going to lose so no investigating. Or oh hay evil book of evil? Probably cursed don't touch it I don't want to lose another character to this stupid god NPC.

As a final few questions: how optimized are they? Have they ever used scry and die tactics at all? What was your plan with offering the sunken treasure quest if you didn't want them to go for it?

[martixy]

Well, the out of game approach is to ask them what kind of game they friggin want. But others covered that.

As for ingame...

Time to pull out chekhov's nuke.

That random treasure hunt they decided to go on instead of pursuing the main goals? Well, it contained some knick-knack that the baddies wanted, and not necessarily the big baddies - maybe some lieutenant of theirs. They got to it before the party. Oops. Their usual lair... well, it got discovered, ransacked and burned to the ground. The friendly inn that they go to every time after an adventure... the sympathising innkeep was harbouring other enemies of the baddies and got found out. No more inn. Bummer.

If they don't want to follow the plot WHACK em on the head with it, till they got no choice.

Some parties thrive on verisimilitude and a living, plausible world. Your party isn't one of those. Make em the center of the universe, to the point that wherever they stumble something relevant to them is happening.

[Telonius]

Divinations can be kind of a touchy subject. I have come into contact with a few DMs that make, "I cast Divination," mean the same thing as, "I've thrown away a perfectly good spell slot." If your players are used to divination spells typically yielding no useful results, they might avoid them altogether. They might not realize that you seem to have built several plot points that depend on them using a particular spell to figure something out. Or, they could be a bunch of complete tightwads and not want to spend the 25gp they need to cast the spell.

If they're really just not getting it, I'd suggest giving them a Wand of Divination, to heck with WBL, and flat-out telling them that they really should use it.

[Thealtruistorc]

Okay, so I talked with my players about this and several things went down.

The first thing I want you all to know is that every single one is a longtime veteran. They have played and DMed for years, oftentimes longer than I have, and all but two of them are heavy optimizers (there were five in total). I've seen this party do some utterly ridiculous things in my time with them, from singlehandedly commandeering an oil field with only three members to taking out an entire city against seemingly unwinnable odds. The sheer tenacity that these players have demonstrated at this point is the reason why I consider CR=level+4 to be the standard encounter difficulty.

Looking back further, it seems that the Warlord (who suggested the treasure hunt) was actively trying to screw the campaign, perhaps as some form of petty revenge. He revealed in this discussion that this wasn't the first time where he acted illogically and out of character just to spite the other players (for example, catching on about an NPC wanting to betray the party and not telling anyone or doing anything, taking the side of the attackers when they went after the other players, and actively trying to ditch the party on several occasions). When I asked about derailing the plot, his response was "only superman goes right to the enemy base and thinks he has any chance," which he used as justification for all of the times he fled on a random tangent when I gave the party an obvious plot hook (which often included an outright strike on the players). Apparently he also had a huge personal vendetta against the Stalker's player (not the character, the player), who had tried to set up an army to fight the villains but because of the information the Warlord had refused to disclose ended up causing billions of deaths and provoking Sophia (she was neutral if not helpful until that point).

The Stalker did reveal that he felt overwhelmed by the enemy, and I will admit that there were some errors on my part (I had apparently made Curzio seem like he had a vast army, when in reality his guerilla forces never exceeded 300 bodies). The party also assumed that divinations wouldn't give them enough of an advantage to even attempt (which may also be my fault seeing as how I've often had NPCs use scrying and whatnot for them rather than having them use those spells on their own).

This whole exchange resulted in a breakdown of the party, and we cancelled for two weeks to recuperate. I'm hoping we can somehow pull this back together.

[RedWarlock]

Warlord player sounds like a jerk. If he's a friend, talk some sense into him. If not, tell him to hit the road. Don't mess up the game just to screw over another player!

[Mordaedil]

Yeah, that player seems like he needs a break from the game, especially with these other people. He might be entirely right in his vendetta, but you can't prioritize one player over the rests enjoyment.

[Yahzi]

You have to make it personal.
Exactly.

The campaign sounds like it has lots of story. But it's all the DM's story. It's about the villains and NPCs and the fate of the DM's world.

Players aren't interested in any of that. They're only interested in the story about their character. The fate of the universe is far less important to players than that one time they tricked a dragon into eating a face-full of ballista bolts.

[weckar]

"only superman goes right to the enemy base and thinks he has any chance,"
This I do have to agree with in principle. When a villain has all the advantages, the last thing you want to give them is home ground.

[Bullet06320]

The sheer tenacity that these players have demonstrated at this point is the reason why I consider CR=level+4 to be the standard encounter difficulty
that's fair enuf, you know your group and what level of play works



"only superman goes right to the enemy base and thinks he has any chance,"

I actually had a player do this once, the group was being harassed by a Halfling mafia they gotten on the bad side of (completely player driven plot), so one character got tired of the tuckers halfing tactics I was using, on them and went straight the mafia dons resteraunt where he was having dinner, barged in, pulled up a chair and sat down. now at the time I was eating a piece of chicken during the conversation, what did he want, what do you think your doing, etc, etc.... they player point blankly said, leave us alone or I will kill you. I laffed so hard, I inhaled a piece of chicken and started choking on it, lol, after I managed to recover from that, I thought about it for a few mins, and decided that, that's exactly what happened to the halfing boss, he choked on his chicken, grabbed a d20 and promptly rolled 1, deciding he choked to death on this chicken. the Pc involved was a mage, he looked right at the other halfings there as said, do we have deal? or whose next? problem solved, the Halfling mafia now leaves them alone.
so you never know how this is gonna play out no matter the circumstances, players do unexpected things, and sometimes the dice just roll the right way for the best outcome for everyones enjoyment

and I agree, the warlord sounds like a jerk

[Godskook]

Apparently he also had a huge personal vendetta against the Stalker's player (not the character, the player)

Taking out ooc problems in-game is absolutely unacceptable in my This would be a violation of the social contract at my table, and if I was nice about it, I'd give them their one warning before they'd be asked to permanently leave my group.

[Boozy]

Okay, so I talked with my players about this and several things went down.

Looking back further, it seems that the Warlord (who suggested the treasure hunt) was actively trying to screw the campaign, perhaps as some form of petty revenge.

This whole exchange resulted in a breakdown of the party, and we cancelled for two weeks to recuperate. I'm hoping we can somehow pull this back together.

Personal beefs in a party are toxic. It's not your campaign that's fundamentally sabotaged, it's your session. Unless you collectively can make peace and get your players on the same page in session, then I suggest you take a hiatus from the tabletop RPG. Not gaming entirely; get a copy of hold HeroQuest or Undercity to keep them playing and socializing, but suspend the RPG for a bit. Or, discuss with the player that is carrying the axe and ask him frankly to let it go for the sake of the gaming group, or sit it out. We all know about a single bad apple, don't let it happen to your group.

[Stryyke]

I know it's a few days old, but I thought I would just throw my two cents in.

The simplest way forward is to just make the wild side quests relevant to the main plot. They don't want to go after the big guys? No problem. Give them the seemingly unrelated side quests, but sprinkle in things that point to the main plot.

You gave them coordinates to one of the strongholds, right? So maybe a completely unrelated quest can be located right near the stronghold.

They went to some random place to do some random quest? Maybe a lackey of one of the BBEGs (or one of the BBEG's themselves) is trying to accomplish the same quest, and they have to race him for the treasure. That way they only have to beet BBEG to a treasure, rather than beating BBEG himself.

Heck, even something as simple as making a contact's name be similar to one of the BBEGs. Just keep mentioning the plot. Depending on how good you are at improv, you can drop hints every ten minutes and they won't feel bludgeoned. Be sly. They are trying to overcome obstacles you throw at them, and you are overcoming obstacles they throw at you. In a story driven campaign, the fun is in trying to lead them by the nose without them realizing it.

[statistx]

Are those players strangers to you?
For me it sounds that an OOC chat is in order, especially since they put the fault on you, but avoid the plot you prepared.

[Svata]

Next time they tell you that there's no plot, remind them that there is one, and that they've been ignoring it. Tell them what's been going on.