How to make a necromancer that isn't purely evil

[sflame56]

Generally when you hear of a necromancer your first thoughts are "This guy is pure evil and needs to die." I am trying to figure out a fun to play one that isn't all evil but is still willing to take full advantage of their abilities. What would be a more kind hearted way to play one or even more acceptable to a good orientated party.

[Naanomi]

Putting aside the amount alignment conundrum it creates (the PHB calls out animating dead as explicitly evil... there are pages of debate about the specifics around here if you feel inclined)... there is probably room for a 'chaotic neutral' Robin-Hood/V for Vendetta type who is willing to do 'forbidden stuff' to fight greater evils or accomplish great things. There is also probably potential for a 'doesn't really understand how bad the things he is doing' Lawful Neutral type from a culture where undead are common following religious or cultural expectations and the like (I've played this type, a 'master of the shroud' in 3e)

Talk to your GM about how and why animate dead is evil (if it is corrupting or the like etc) before you invest too far in this idea, lots of different interpretations to say the least

[NecroDancer]

Play them as a commander who will throw waves of soldiers at the enemy regardless of strategy (basically become Zap Brannigan).

[mgshamster]

I've got a necromancer from a culture that does not believe the undead are evil. Instead, when a family member dies, they do not wish their families to be burdened. So they go to my necromancer to have them turned into zombies or skeletons so that they may become the house servants and perform manual labor for their families.

Having the father of the house till the soil is beyond a reasonable request when Grandma can do it after she dies. As well as Uncle Joe, and big sister when she died of the pox. As they like to say, "What do I care what happened to my body after my soul departs to heaven? Let it continue to help my loved ones love a better life."

As a necromancer, I ensure the proper protocol are followed, that the person who died actually was a member of the family, they they wished to serve the family after they died, and that their death was one of natural causes and not of foul play.

Once the above have been accomplished, I clean and dress the body, perform the proper rituals to bind the body to the family, and reanimate the body so the wishes of the departed may be fulfilled.

You want to call me evil? It is I who think you are selfish and evil for demanding your own body be uselessly buried in the earth while your family is forced to labor long hours farming the land. You cause your family undue harm following your silly customs.

[Naanomi]

Basically how my necromancer was mghamster, but on a more communistic/societal level. People could live a life of idle luxury, but everyone was expected to serve after death... most as soldiers or laborers. People who wanted to put in the effort while alive in study, practice, or piety may instead be chosen to 'serve' in a leadership role as an intelligent undead.

Incorporeal undead were considered to be religious obligations to help them 'resolve' why they linger (and those that could not be encouraged to 'move on' were 'relocated' to a 'city of the dead' to keep people safe from the 'tragedy of their situation')... my 'Master of Shrouds' worked in this capacity.

My character was lawful neutral... the council of liches running everything was evil as heck behind the scenes, but the average citizen ran the gamut like any society.

[Hrugner]

I suppose he could pay people a fee while they were alive for use of their corpse when they pass. Sort of a necromancer's organ donor card.

The necromancer could be in charge of a small city. As part of the agreement between lord and servant, those who live in the city agree to leave their body to the necromancer when they pass in exchange for protection now. The necromancer then raises those who've died and uses them as guardians to keep the city safe and serve as beasts of burden, and menial laborers. The people then can live in the city free of all worry entirely taken care of by the nations ancestors. And with any luck there's enough undead stocked up to prevent people from seeing their loved ones wandering about. Those who chose some greater service while alive may be granted higher form of undead life as a reward.

[Sigreid]

You could pay people for rights to their bodies after they die. Make it a fair deal and don't murder them. You get bodies, their families are genuinely better off than they were. You would likely have to convince them and their families that you weren't going to prevent their soul from going on to it's final reward.

[Kane0]

Halfway between this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNgNBsCI4EA)and this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36lSzUMBJnc)?

[Logosloki]

You could just not raise the dead. The debate of necromancy = evil comes right down to raising the dead, which you don't have to do. You could instead play as someone who is interested in making sure the dead rest. Speak with those wronged, learn rites to quell the restless, comfort those who have lost.

[scalyfreak]

You could just not raise the dead. The debate of necromancy = evil comes right down to raising the dead, which you don't have to do. You could instead play as someone who is interested in making sure the dead rest. Speak with those wronged, learn rites to quell the restless, comfort those who have lost.

Don't forget the part where you catch murderers and avenge their victims.

[sir_argo]

I've got a necromancer from a culture that does not believe the undead are evil.

A DM can change the alignment of zombies and skeletons to neutral and this would work great. But if the DM hasn't done that, the literal alignment of the Zombie is evil. But your premise raises so many questions. If zombies weren't evil, the resulting society essentially has guilt-free slavery (for the record, modern humanity may be going the same route with robotics). Would such a society degrade into hedonism? I have to perform no labor. All my food and shelter is provided by slave labor. I don't even have to be nice to them... they follow my orders without question. I am their god.

[Primus Beno]

Who better to hunt the undead than someone who understands them better than anyone? 2nd edition's Necromancer handbook had a great idea on a necromancer who was in an all out war against the undead, using it's tools against it. Obviously, he wasn't animating the dead to fight the undead as that is a tad hypocritical, but there were plenty of other useful spells he used to combat them. I always thought it made for a neat concept for a LG necromancer.

[Naanomi]

A DM can change the alignment of zombies and skeletons to neutral and this would work great. But if the DM hasn't done that, the literal alignment of the Zombie is evil. But your premise raises so many questions. If zombies weren't evil, the resulting society essentially has guilt-free slavery (for the record, modern humanity may be going the same route with robotics). Would such a society degrade into hedonism? I have to perform no labor. All my food and shelter is provided by slave labor. I don't even have to be nice to them... they follow my orders without question. I am their god.
I think the idea is that the character's culture is wrong about the nature of undead (and this ignorance helps justify a no -evil alignment presumably)... not that the undead are not actually evil

[Gastronomie]

I think, somewhere in these forums, I saw this idea of a necromancer who belongs to a society where executed criminals are zombified to become guardians and cops (basically, they compensate for their sins during life by laboring for the good after death). Necromancers are like high-rank police officers in that sense, and "adventuring" is part of their job, to hunt criminals and dangerous monsters.

I suppose that could make for a LG Necromancer.

[Coidzor]

Do you use your undead to put out fires and save orphanages?

Move your stuff to or from your basement?

Slaughter the innocent so that you may make them into more undead slaves?

One unfortunate move that was made was that animals can no longer be made into undead....by PCs.

[Temperjoke]

One thing to consider is how you approach your undead, assuming you create them. If you create them for short term, no other option except this, usage and ensure that they get a proper and respectful burial at the end of their "use"... well, a person doing that might still be seen as evil by outside individual, but might regard themselves as not entirely evil.

[Morty]

You could just not raise the dead. The debate of necromancy = evil comes right down to raising the dead, which you don't have to do. You could instead play as someone who is interested in making sure the dead rest. Speak with those wronged, learn rites to quell the restless, comfort those who have lost.

I was going to say that. You can play a necromancer without ever raising a single undead.

[qube]

I've got a necromancer from a culture that does not believe the undead are evil.Fearun has Baelnorn liches - elves who chose to become liches and serve as ethernal defenders; most of them are lawful good.

And ... err ... this thing (https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Resurrection) don't sound evil to me

[Unoriginal]

Generally when you hear of a necromancer your first thoughts are "This guy is pure evil and needs to die." I am trying to figure out a fun to play one that isn't all evil but is still willing to take full advantage of their abilities. What would be a more kind hearted way to play one or even more acceptable to a good orientated party.

Simple: you play a necromancer, and don't do evil things.

That's it.

Don't animate the dead for a yes or a no, just to it when it's absolutely needed, and when you do, destroy the undead before there is a chance you lose control of it



the PHB calls out animating dead as explicitly evil

This is blatantly false and you know it.

Animating the dead is said to be not good, which is not the same as evil. Regularly animating the dead is evil because it means you're regularly creating omnicidal monsters that will try to destroy all life for petty reasons and with complete disregard for others' safety.

[Creyzi4j]

In Forgotten Realms novel Brotherhood of the Griffin there was a necromancer lady who was one of the good guys. Meralaine was her name?

She was a pretty nice character'. Sometimes coming in to the rescue of her crush.

[mgshamster]

I think the idea is that the character's culture is wrong about the nature of undead (and this ignorance helps justify a no -evil alignment presumably)... not that the undead are not actually evil

Pretty much. Also, if the planes are part of the universe, then belief has a very strong impact on reality and could even turn those undead into not-evil. At least for those of us who've read Planescape. :)

[ZorroGames]

Very interested in this thread since I want eventually to play a Lawful/Neutral or Chaotic/Good (depends on how I build his background) Necromancer who hunts Undead to free them and the world from the machinations of Evil Necromancy.

Thanks for this thread.

[Corran]

I'll just leave this (https://patricksponaugle.com/2016/03/08/in-defense-of-qyburn/) here.


Also, one interesting post I once came accross was this:

I did the opposite in my campaign. Maybe not what you're looking for, but I thought it interesting enough to share. Mostly because every DM and his grandmother tries to ban Necromancy because of some taboo or another.

I wrote into the lore about a grand Necromancer champion who saved the world from an evil Lich using an undead army that he had built out of bandits and assassins and other members of the Lich's forces. Now, people still wouldn't want their loved ones to be tainted by such corrupt magic (although actual ressurections spells which restore the body and soul are more than fine), but if you raise some bandits nobody will bat an eye. "They got what's comin' to 'em." or "Maybe 'e'll do some good fer a change." are what you might hear if someone learns a bandit or other generally evil person has become an undead.

Particularly nice/powerful Necromancers might Resurrect their bones once they've "earned their keep" before sending them on their way, hopefully turning a new leaf after spending upwards of months in the 9 hells.

[mgshamster]

An old friend of mine played a necromancer who hunted other necromancers. His Character believed that to properly hunt one's enemies, you must understand them to the fullest extent. And the best way to understand them is to become one.

This style of character can be nearly any alignment. My friend played a good aligned one.

[Naanomi]

This is blatantly false and you know it.

Animating the dead is said to be not good, which is not the same as evil. Regularly animating the dead is evil because it means you're regularly creating omnicidal monsters that will try to destroy all life for petty reasons and with complete disregard for others' safety.
As I stated, it is a complex discussion that has been had elsewhere in the forums and doesn't need to be rehashed here. At the very least a 'good 'necromancer' (the undead creating type) is worth having a conversation with the GM about the concept before getting attached to it

[Sigreid]

How about animating the deaf and then transporting them to the twin paradise plane and keeping them there until their alignment shifts to NG? 😀

[Glorthindel]

When I played a wizard who wandered slightly into the darker arts, the DM created for me what he called "the countesses guide to socially acceptable necromancy" (The Countess being a "very long lived" ruler of a romanian-themed country in his game world).

It basically amounted to "don't make a mess", and gave pointers such as "whilst funny, scaring the locals for your own amusement might lead to easily avoided household fires", "zombies may be cheaper, but wraiths don't leave unpleasant smears on your curtains and upholstery", "culling the female population, especially at the virgin stage creates an unacceptable population problem that will impact your future tax revenue", and "the graveyard is nearer, but the villagers tend to take a dim view of their grandparents and uncles bodies going missing".

[Celcey]

I agree with the idea that raising the dead is not inherently evil. It's the same concept as organ donation- after you die, your body is used for the benefit of others. (I also personally think it's dumb that completely unintelligent undead, like zombies, have an alignment at all.) It could also be a type of reverse mortgage. I'll pay you XYZ amount of money now, but when you die, I get your body to use. Obviously something like a lich is evil, because you have to go through a shtus-ton of evil rituals to get there. But generic, unintelligent undead? In a world where that kind of thing is common, there's no reason it would be a big deal.

[Seekergeek]

I suppose it comes down to degrees. While the action may be evil, I do believe motivation counts. I mean, really, hacking something to death with a sword is a pretty evil act out of context. I once had a backup character who never saw play that was a necormancer who would raise dead local heroes to help out with whatever quest was going on in the area. "After all", he reasoned, "that's what he would have done in life". Worked well in my head, anyway.

[Sigreid]

(I also personally think it's dumb that completely unintelligent undead, like zombies, have an alignment at all.)

I the the default evil alignment for zombies and skeletons comes from 2 things. One, they are animated with negative, anti-life if you will, energy. 2 they default to attacking anything within reach.

[Unoriginal]

I also personally think it's dumb that completely unintelligent undead, like zombies, have an alignment at all.

Because they are not completely unintelligent. This is not 3.X's undead.

Their entries in the MM explain that.


I the the default evil alignment for zombies and skeletons comes from 2 things. One, they are animated with negative, anti-life if you will, energy. 2 they default to attacking anything within reach.

It's because they are evil spirits that desire to kill everything that is alive put into corpses. Also, they are neither completely mindless nor devoid of intelligence.

[Kane0]

Alternatively, healing spells are necromancy so a Life Theurge 'Necromancer' should do nicely.

[Tanarii]

Don't cast necromancy spells that create undead frequently. That's all it takes, since that's what makes 5e Necromancers evil only Evil casters do that frequently, per the PHB.

That's the majority of them Necromancy spells. You probably don't want to create a School of Necromancy Wizard though. I mean you could, but your level 6 ability would just be sitting there not doing much good. So Cleric, Bard (with Magical Secrets), Wizard of any other school but choose all the non-undead-creating necromancy spells to prepare, even Warlock or Sorcerer. I wouldn't go Druid though, they only have 4 Necromancy spells.

[Vogonjeltz]

Generally when you hear of a necromancer your first thoughts are "This guy is pure evil and needs to die." I am trying to figure out a fun to play one that isn't all evil but is still willing to take full advantage of their abilities. What would be a more kind hearted way to play one or even more acceptable to a good orientated party.

Step 1: Never cast animate dead.

You could create a character who is deeply interested in necromancy, but is focused on returning the undead to their rightful state (deceased).

[Vogonjeltz]

I've got a necromancer from a culture that does not believe the undead are evil. Instead, when a family member dies, they do not wish their families to be burdened. So they go to my necromancer to have them turned into zombies or skeletons so that they may become the house servants and perform manual labor for their families.

Having the father of the house till the soil is beyond a reasonable request when Grandma can do it after she dies. As well as Uncle Joe, and big sister when she died of the pox. As they like to say, "What do I care what happened to my body after my soul departs to heaven? Let it continue to help my loved ones love a better life."

As a necromancer, I ensure the proper protocol are followed, that the person who died actually was a member of the family, they they wished to serve the family after they died, and that their death was one of natural causes and not of foul play.

Once the above have been accomplished, I clean and dress the body, perform the proper rituals to bind the body to the family, and reanimate the body so the wishes of the departed may be fulfilled.

You want to call me evil? It is I who think you are selfish and evil for demanding your own body be uselessly buried in the earth while your family is forced to labor long hours farming the land. You cause your family undue harm following your silly customs.

Of course, the spellcasting service would cost well over 50gp per person per day so those dear departed souls would quickly and permanently bankrupt the family at a mean cost of well over 150gp per day!

Talk about being a burden.

[mgshamster]

Of course, the spellcasting service would cost well over 50gp per person per day so those dear departed souls would quickly and permanently bankrupt the family at a mean cost of well over 150gp per day!

Talk about being a burden.

In this edition. :(

(That story was from my 2e days).

[MarkVIIIMarc]

You need a financial excuse to exist.

I liked the one earlier about providing soldiers to a small town.

I just watched Deepwater Horizon....could provide labor for jobs no one wants also. In dangerous mines, rowing ships of war, you name it.

In a way the Necromancer would be saving the young men of the town....maybe he got the idea from how his father perished.

[Sigreid]

I've got a necromancer from a culture that does not believe the undead are evil. Instead, when a family member dies, they do not wish their families to be burdened. So they go to my necromancer to have them turned into zombies or skeletons so that they may become the house servants and perform manual labor for their families.

Having the father of the house till the soil is beyond a reasonable request when Grandma can do it after she dies. As well as Uncle Joe, and big sister when she died of the pox. As they like to say, "What do I care what happened to my body after my soul departs to heaven? Let it continue to help my loved ones love a better life."

As a necromancer, I ensure the proper protocol are followed, that the person who died actually was a member of the family, they they wished to serve the family after they died, and that their death was one of natural causes and not of foul play.

Once the above have been accomplished, I clean and dress the body, perform the proper rituals to bind the body to the family, and reanimate the body so the wishes of the departed may be fulfilled.

You want to call me evil? It is I who think you are selfish and evil for demanding your own body be uselessly buried in the earth while your family is forced to labor long hours farming the land. You cause your family undue harm following your silly customs.

This reminds me of a dual campaign that I read about (I think on this forum) where the DM was running 2 games at once. One was a necromancer travelling around and teaching people the ways of necromancy to increase their prosperity and security to the point where they could overthrow their cruel rulers and rule themselves. The other was a group casing after this arch necromancer destroying the undead abominations and returning villiages back to their rightful rulers. Apparently, both campaigns ended in a climax where the two squared off and only then did the heroic party learn that the necromancer was a good man helping the people while they were returning them to tyranny.

Good stuff.