Questions about the Chameleon PrC

[danielxcutter]

I really, really like Chameleon, and from what I hear it's a very good class, fun to play and decently powerful. I still have a few questions, though, regarding crunch.


I suppose that Chameleons are best played as gish-in-a-can characters? They can get access to many spells, but they lack in spell levels, so it doesn't seem like they're primary casters. Even theurges are better at straight casting.


Is archery a better choice, or melee? Melee has much more support, but Chameleons can get access to almost every - if not all - archery-friendly spells printed.


Which focus is better, Arcane or Divine? Yes, I know that the answer is "both as soon as you get Double Ability Focus", but what about before then?


Oh, btw, any great archery-friendly spells that a Chameleon can poach? All first-party non-Dragon Magazine sources are permitted.

[LTwerewolf]

In 3.5 archery is pretty much never the better choice without a ridiculous amount of investment to make it workable (but still mediocre). The best thing to do with a chameleon is gather intel. Get the info you need to know what you'll need that day.

[Shadowquad]

Due to exotic list spellcasting classes, the Chameleon gets some spells earlier than primary casters. In particular, they get access to the Trapsmith list, which makes them particularly efficient support casters at low levels.

There also are some interesting spells on the paladin and ranger list, which you can grab at lower levels.

[Kaleph]

I really, really like Chameleon, and from what I hear it's a very good class, fun to play and decently powerful. I still have a few questions, though, regarding crunch.


I suppose that Chameleons are best played as gish-in-a-can characters? They can get access to many spells, but they lack in spell levels, so it doesn't seem like they're primary casters. Even theurges are better at straight casting.


Is archery a better choice, or melee? Melee has much more support, but Chameleons can get access to almost every - if not all - archery-friendly spells printed.


Which focus is better, Arcane or Divine? Yes, I know that the answer is "both as soon as you get Double Ability Focus", but what about before then?


Oh, btw, any great archery-friendly spells that a Chameleon can poach? All first-party non-Dragon Magazine sources are permitted.

1. Probabably the best option is to be a gish who's also able in dungeoncrawling. They're approximately on par with theurges when it comes to spellcasting at medium levels (10-15), but they're not tier 1 due to lack of high level spells and limited access to PrC's. As it was pointed out, you should try to get the best from the spell lists you can emulate, including (divine) bard, paladin, duskblade, trapsmith etc.

2. Melee is better, but it's more intrinsecally true within the D&D framework, rather than related to the chameleon itself. In any case, the class is versatile enough, that you can chose whatever combat style you like, and optimize it for the purpose. A lot of the chameleon power depends on the entry classes, since you can dip for 5 levels and cherry-pick the features you need from frontloaded classes. A typical example is barbarian 2, to get frenzy, pounce and improved trip.

3. Both may be good options. One decision-driver is if you want to use DMM-persist. One trick is to use hours- or day-long buffs at the beginning of the day (e.g. with the cleric list), and then switch your aptitude focus to emulate a class that has more silver bullets (e.g. wizard). This is possible at level 10.

[danielxcutter]

In 3.5 archery is pretty much never the better choice without a ridiculous amount of investment to make it workable (but still mediocre). The best thing to do with a chameleon is gather intel. Get the info you need to know what you'll need that day.

Well, I hear that Clerics make excellent archers if you have Zen Archery. And Artificers are even better.


Due to exotic list spellcasting classes, the Chameleon gets some spells earlier than primary casters. In particular, they get access to the Trapsmith list, which makes them particularly efficient support casters at low levels.

There also are some interesting spells on the paladin and ranger list, which you can grab at lower levels.

I honestly don't really like grabbing spells off PrCs like Trapsmith... it kinda makes me feel dirty. Actually, Trapsmith is probably okayish, because I haven't heard about any game-breakers from that list. What's really the problem is Summon Giants. It's usually a 8th-level spell, but Disciples of Thrym(did I spell that right?) get it as a 4th-level divine spell. That is the biggest offender.

I don't mind grabbing spells of the Ranger or Paladin list, though, as well as Assassin, Blackguard, Hexblade, and Duskblade spells. For some reason, I don't feel as guilty... which is probably a bit hypocritical, yeah, but still.


1. Probabably the best option is to be a gish who's also able in dungeoncrawling. They're approximately on par with theurges when it comes to spellcasting at medium levels (10-15), but they're not tier 1 due to lack of high level spells and limited access to PrC's. As it was pointed out, you should try to get the best from the spell lists you can emulate, including (divine) bard, paladin, duskblade, trapsmith etc.

2. Melee is better, but it's more intrinsecally true within the D&D framework, rather than related to the chameleon itself. In any case, the class is versatile enough, that you can chose whatever combat style you like, and optimize it for the purpose. A lot of the chameleon power depends on the entry classes, since you can dip for 5 levels and cherry-pick the features you need from frontloaded classes. A typical example is barbarian 2, to get frenzy, pounce and improved trip.

3. Both may be good options. One decision-driver is if you want to use DMM-persist. One trick is to use hours- or day-long buffs at the beginning of the day (e.g. with the cleric list), and then switch your aptitude focus to emulate a class that has more silver bullets (e.g. wizard). This is possible at level 10.

Ah, thank you very much.

[prototype00]

I honestly don't really like grabbing spells off PrCs like Trapsmith... it kinda makes me feel dirty. Actually, Trapsmith is probably okayish, because I haven't heard about any game-breakers from that list. What's really the problem is Summon Giants. It's usually a 8th-level spell, but Disciples of Thrym(did I spell that right?) get it as a 4th-level divine spell. That is the biggest offender.

I don't mind grabbing spells of the Ranger or Paladin list, though, as well as Assassin, Blackguard, Hexblade, and Duskblade spells. For some reason, I don't feel as guilty... which is probably a bit hypocritical, yeah, but still.
.

Ooh, thanks very much for the Summon Giants thingy, missed that!

Why are you averse to getting spells super early? It's one of the things that make the Chameleon so good!

[weckar]

Trapsmith's Haste is probably the gem from that list. If you can deal with Haste as a 1st level spell, you can quite safely incorporate the whole list in your routine.

[prototype00]

Don't forget to take a month off to prepare "Extra Spell" in your floating feat slot so you can get all those spells for free in your spell book.

[danielxcutter]

Ooh, thanks very much for the Summon Giants thingy, missed that!

Why are you averse to getting spells super early? It's one of the things that make the Chameleon so good!

Depends on the spell. I wouldn't use Summon Giants, for example, but I have no problem with, say, taking Lesser Restoration from the Paladin list.


Trapsmith's Haste is probably the gem from that list. If you can deal with Haste as a 1st level spell, you can quite safely incorporate the whole list in your routine.

Yeah, I think that's fine. Chameleons need all the early help they can afford.


Don't forget to take a month off to prepare "Extra Spell" in your floating feat slot so you can get all those spells for free in your spell book.

I would have said that Extra Spell doesn't work that way, but I guess Chameleon actually can use it like that.

[Darrin]

Cleric 4/Ordained Champion 3/Chameleon 10/Wonderworker 3

You can use Ordained Champion's Channel Spell to turn your enemies into a fish (aquatic escape), a medium fiendish spider (lesser spider form), or a fiendish octopus (fiendform). That's without a save.

If you can use Versatile Spell/Sanctum Spell/Earth Spell/Heighten Spell to ratchet up your effective spell level up to 9th or 10th, you can use Extra Slot to give yourself 7th/8th/9th level spell slots. Then you can channel something like transcend mortality: your enemy gets one round of awesome, and then dies.

[prototype00]

Yeah, I think that's fine. Chameleons need all the early help they can afford.
I would have said that Extra Spell doesn't work that way, but I guess Chameleon actually can use it like that.

Don't forget to shape your (Con-10) Soulmelds for free using the same trick. You can become immune to flanking, gain permanent protection from Evil, at-will Teleportation, Diehard and Telepathy all at lvl 7 (and then take mindsight with your floating feat).

prototype00

[danielxcutter]

Don't forget to shape your (Con-10) Soulmelds for free using the same trick. You can become immune to flanking, gain permanent protection from Evil, at-will Teleportation, Diehard and Telepathy all at lvl 7 (and then take mindsight with your floating feat).

prototype00

Admittingly, this is where soulmelds stop being merely "great" and start smelling like fondue. I don't think that would fly at most tables...

[prototype00]

Admittingly, this is where soulmelds stop being merely "great" and start smelling like fondue. I don't think that would fly at most tables...

Hey man, you were the one who said Chameleons needed that boost. ;p

Also, RAW, so technically, the DM needs to rule 0 it if they want to ban it.

prototype00

[danielxcutter]

Hey man, you were the one who said Chameleons needed that boost. ;p

Also, RAW, so technically, the DM needs to rule 0 it if they want to ban it.

prototype00

That's true, but it's still a bit too cheesy. That many soulmelds at once isn't possible for a legit meldshaper until well into epic levels.

[prototype00]

That's true, but it's still a bit too cheesy. That many soulmelds at once isn't possible for a legit meldshaper until well into epic levels.

Legit Meldshapers can do so much more with their Soulmelds, for the Chameleon, its just little bonuses (some of which happen to be not so little, so you pick those).

prototype00

[Fouredged Sword]

Trapsmith's Haste is probably the gem from that list. If you can deal with Haste as a 1st level spell, you can quite safely incorporate the whole list in your routine.

I would also note 1st/3rd level access to dispel magic/greater dispel magic and 2nd level access to lesser globe of invulnerability. The last one is particularly noteworthy in E6 where a X5/Chameleon 1 has access to 2nd level spells and can thus use lesser globe of invulnerability to become immune to all non-epic magic. On trapsmith this isn't that bad due to the slow spell progression. A chameleon, on the other hand, can gain access to the 2nd level trapsmith spells 2 levels earlier than trapsmith can.

[ayvango]

In 3.5 archery is pretty much never the better choice without a ridiculous amount of investment to make it workable (but still mediocre).

I had posted here a simple manual for archer that could do steadily 3K damage per round: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20892469&postcount=65 He could get more with temporal buffs like burning weapon.

[LTwerewolf]

Well, I hear that Clerics make excellent archers if you have Zen Archery. And Artificers are even better.





That's coming from the other things clerics and artificers can do (and artificers drop off pretty hard after around 10) rather than archery being any good. Don't get me wrong; I love archery. It's just in this edition of the game it's pretty bad.


I had posted here a simple manual for archer that could do steadily 3K damage per round: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20892469&postcount=65 He could get more with temporal buffs like burning weapon.

Yes, you can also use infinite loops for infinite damage. Specific builds doesn't make it good in general. Also note your build doesn't include chameleon which is specifically what the OP was talking about making it rather not helpful.

[DEMON]

I had posted here a simple manual for archer that could do steadily 3K damage per round: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20892469&postcount=65 He could get more with temporal buffs like burning weapon.

That's anything but simple :smallsmile: