Druidic Herbalism: any errata?

[CockroachTeaParty]

I ran in to this the other day, it's an additional option instead of taking an animal companion or a domain. Here's the stuff from the SRD:


Druidic Herbalism Nature Bond Variant (Optional)

Source PPC:HH

Druidic herbalism is a nature bond option that can be taken by any druid at 1st level except those with archetypes or alternate class features that alter or replace nature bond or mandate a specific nature bond choice.

Instead of granting access to a domain or an animal companion, a druid’s bond with nature can take a third form: access to druidic herbalism.

A druid who chooses to learn druidic herbalism can use combinations of nuts, berries, dried herbs, and other natural ingredients along with appropriate containers to create herbal concoctions or magic consumables that function like potions. This acts like the Brew Potion feat, but only for spells on the druid spell list. Herbal concoctions are typically thick and sludgy, and their creation time, caster level, spell duplication capabilities, and all other variables and properties are identical to those of potions created using Brew Potion. Herbal concoctions created with herbs that cause special effects when ingested retain those effects as well as the appropriate spell effect.

A druid can create a number of free herbal concoctions per day equal to her Wisdom modifier. Additional concoctions cost the same as creating an equivalent potion using Brew Potion. Druids can sell their herbal concoctions just as if they were potions (though NPCs unfamiliar with druidic herbalism may need some convincing before purchasing these wares).

At 4th level, a druid’s increasing skill with herbalism means that she can disguise the effects of her herbal concoctions. When a creature attempts a Perception or Spellcraft check to identify one of the druid’s concoctions, the concoction appears to be a different herbal concoction of the druid’s choice unless the creature exceeds the identification DC by 5 or more. The druid must designate this false result when creating the concoction. If a creature exceeds the identification DC by 5 or more, it correctly identifies the concoction, though not that the druid tried to fool it.

Additionally, at 4th level, when the druid creates additional concoctions, she need pay only half the normal cost to create them. It takes her only half the normal time to create her concoctions, and she can create concoctions of spells from any spell list, as long as she can cast the spell.

At 7th level, when the druid creates concoctions with potential false identification results, a creature attempting to identify the concoction must exceed the identification DC by 10 or more to determine the concoction’s true identity.

Additionally, at 7th level, a druid can create any herbal concoction in 1 minute. She can also create a special concoction of any spell higher than 3rd level that she can cast, but to do so, she must expend a spell slot of the same level. These special concoctions do not cost her anything to create and function like extracts created by an alchemist with the infusion discovery.


Has there been any errata or an FAQ or anything related to this? It seems rife with ambiguous things, with possible room for abuse. Does this turn a druid into a free potion factory?

[Waker]

Yeah, that seems pretty strong. Free potions per day, eventual cost and time reduction and raising the level cap on spells that can be made into potions? I mean I am glad that they are expanding on the options for druids who don't want pets, but oof. That's strong.

[Psyren]

I'd say it was fine up until the "higher than 3rd-level infusion" function. Before then, you're spending 30 minutes to an hour each to make a 3rd level potion or lower; if you have that much downtime there's worse things you could be doing. But being able to hand out potions of say Epidemic has the potential to ruin a campaign world fairly quickly.

Getting NPCs to buy them could potentially break WBL as well but that's easy enough to interfere with.

[CockroachTeaParty]

RAI seems to suggest that NPCs won't want to buy your gross druid potions, but if you could find someone desperate enough who has the money... shrug.

But yeah, this seems pretty potent. I'd perhaps look on the Paizo forums to see if there's any clarification, but I'm not sure I care enough... :smallsigh:

[icefractal]

RAI seems to suggest that NPCs won't want to buy your gross druid potions, but if you could find someone desperate enough who has the money... shrug.If they're not familiar with them, they won't. But the fact that the potions have a price and that NPCs who are "familiar" could buy them shoots in the foot the idea that the potions are supposed to only last a day and that was just left out.


I'd say it was fine up until the "higher than 3rd-level infusion" function. Before then, you're spending 30 minutes to an hour each to make a 3rd level potion or lower; if you have that much downtime there's worse things you could be doing. But being able to hand out potions of say Epidemic has the potential to ruin a campaign world fairly quickly.I'd say that being able to stockpile an unlimited number of potions for free is still pretty crazy.

[eldskald]

I'd say it was fine up until the "higher than 3rd-level infusion" function. Before then, you're spending 30 minutes to an hour each to make a 3rd level potion or lower; if you have that much downtime there's worse things you could be doing. But being able to hand out potions of say Epidemic has the potential to ruin a campaign world fairly quickly.

Getting NPCs to buy them could potentially break WBL as well but that's easy enough to interfere with.

They spend a spell slot to create an infusion of the same level, so what's the difference between preparing the spell or preparing an infusion of the spell? I suppose that, just like the infusion, the spell slot won't come back until the infusion is consumed, so they can't stockpile those.

[Ellrin]

They spend a spell slot to create an infusion of the same level, so what's the difference between preparing the spell or preparing an infusion of the spell? I suppose that, just like the infusion, the spell slot won't come back until the infusion is consumed, so they can't stockpile those.

The main differences between extracts and spells are:


You cannot drink an extract defensively, and they can be targeted by the AoO if you're in anyone's threat range. It's a lot easier, therefore, to lose a slot by "casting" in combat with extracts than it is with spells.
They only affect the drinker. At least one of the designers encouraged DMs to essentially ignore this for infused extracts, but as the rules currently stand, this makes extracts that affect multiple targets useless, and extracts with targets other than creatures, or extracts that have an effect entry instead of a target entry, subject to DM fiat. It also makes extracts that are meant to be used as direct offense difficult to deliver.
You can't apply metamagic to them. Paizo apparently didn't like the idea of alchemists having spellcasters' nice things.
They don't have verbal components, and the material component is added when preparing the extract. You can "cast" extracts just fine if deafened, in an area of magical silence, or if otherwise unable to speak. The material components thing is a wash, though, since extracts can be stolen or destroyed just as easily as a spell component pouch.
They always take a standard action to drink. While this means extracts of swift action spells are a bit of a step down, it also means you don't have to spend ten minutes casting control weather, assuming your DM lets you make extracts of area spells.
They only take one minute to prepare. This means a 7th level druid with herbalism can leave any number of slots open and pretty quickly prepare extracts to deal with problems as they arise. Granted, this won't help you if you're ambushed, but if you're setting up an ambush or dealing with nearly any non-combat situation, you have access to the entire druid spell list at practically the drop of a hat.


Since it's not like you're getting rid of the ability to cast spells completely, the way an alchemist/investigator does, and you have a much deeper and more versatile spell list than the alchemist, that last bit could potentially push you into territory usually associated with batman wizards.

That said, comparing the spell list of the druid to the cleric's or wizard's, this still isn't going to make a druid outclass either, and I don't see how convincing someone to drink an infused extract of epidemic would be significantly different than just casting it. The infinite free potions thing is much more abusable.

[CockroachTeaParty]

Hmm... the 4th level or higher spell potion thingies are treated as extracts with the infusion discovery, eh?

You can't make potions of personal-range spells normally, but infusions of such spells are valid candidates, so a druid could make powerful personal-range infusions that could be given to allies. There's not a whole lot of such spells that immediately come to mind, but you could give your party fighter an infusion of Shapechange, and suddenly you have the most powerful polymorph spell on the full BAB chassis of a dedicated fighter. Pretty scary!

[Fouredged Sword]

Yeah, I can see this as a perfectly valid option for a more spellcastery druid who wants to play up the naturalist angle rather than the nature warrior angle. This plays well in a support roll, especially past 7th level where you can stockpile healing potions and such.

Another benefit of infusions is that they can be used on you while you are unconscious. An infusion of a healing or status removal spell can be taken out of your pack and used on you by an untrained ally in the event that you are knocked out of combat though a status condition.

[eldskald]

So in the end, the infusions are just another option to cast their spells in a more supportive way. About the potions thingy after lv7, they can make around 75xWisxCL gold a day by spending a minute for each potion they craft. At level 10, with +6 Wis mod, they would make 4500 gold. Also means no potion stockpiles if they keep selling everything. Does that seems broken? With downtime rules and supposing you can always sell them (meaning the shopkeeper will always have money and be willing to buy your concoctions), then yeah, maybe you can be rich and break the game.

[Necroticplague]

With the Potion Glutton feat, you could improve the action to chug one of these into a swift action. That could certainly save rounds of self-buffing. Add in the Accelerated Drinker trait* to slam one down as a move action, and you can effectively cast 2 buff spells in one turn on yourself, and still have a standard action to either cast, or buff moar.

*= Accelerated Drinker would only work for level 3 or less spells, since those are just normal potions, while level 3 or higher are Extracts, which Accelerated Drinker won't work for.

And if you're at the end of a day with free potion slots leftover, you can always just make potions of Channel the Gift to effectively store 3rd-or-lower spell slots for another day.

[CockroachTeaParty]

With the Potion Glutton feat, you could improve the action to chug one of these into a swift action. That could certainly save rounds of self-buffing.

Well, Potion Glutton was originally printed in Inner Sea Gods, where the only prerequisite is 'worship Urgathoa,' the goddess of undeath. Probably not druid-friendly if you cleave to the Golarion-specific fluff. ;)

[Necroticplague]

Well, Potion Glutton was originally printed in Inner Sea Gods, where the only prerequisite is 'worship Urgathoa,' the goddess of undeath. Probably not druid-friendly if you cleave to the Golarion-specific fluff. ;)
Considering Blight Druids are a thing, a druid worshiping the goddess of diseases is quiet a distinct possibility.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Oh, druids of Urgathoa are a thing. There was an entire PFS scenario where you fight a druid-heavy Urgathoa cult (funnily enough, we had a Urgathoan druid in our party as well).

[Johanas]

Now combine Druid 7 with Wizard 3 into Mystic Theurge, and you have a character handing out free potions with 20 levels of Druid casting, and 10 levels of Wizard casting.

Then your GM slaps you and bans Druidic Herbalism, so enjoy while you can!

[Zanos]

Am I misreading this, or are these permanent? It sounds like starting from level 1 you can just stockpile potions at a rate of +wisdom modifier per day, and at 7 you can just stockpile potions of any spell of any level for free at a rate of 1 potion per minute.

[eldskald]

Now combine Druid 7 with Wizard 3 into Mystic Theurge, and you have a character handing out free potions with 20 levels of Druid casting, and 10 levels of Wizard casting.

Then your GM slaps you and bans Druidic Herbalism, so enjoy while you can!

As written, you can only craft free potions and infusions from druid spell list.


Am I misreading this, or are these permanent? It sounds like starting from level 1 you can just stockpile potions at a rate of +wisdom modifier per day, and at 7 you can just stockpile potions of any spell of any level for free at a rate of 1 potion per minute.

Before lv 7, you have to craft potions at normal craft rules, which means it takes 2 hours to make one that costs 250g or less and 8 hours for each 1000g it costs. You can also rise the DC by +5 to double the speed for those that costs more than 250g. So time is the big issue there. After lv 7, you take 1 minute to craft both the potions and the infusions.

[Necroticplague]

Am I misreading this, or are these permanent? It sounds like starting from level 1 you can just stockpile potions at a rate of +wisdom modifier per day,
Assuming you do nothing else, yes. Making potions eats up a bunch of time.


and at 7 you can just stockpile potions of any spell of any level for free at a rate of 1 potion per minute.

Well, at level 7, the time problem for the previously mentioned stockpiling goes away. However, the 'free, but uses up spell slot' functions like an infusion, which means they can't recover that slot until the potion is used.

[Johanas]

Eldskald, I was referring to the last portion of the ability:


"Additionally, at 7th level, a druid can create any herbal concoction in 1 minute. She can also create a special concoction of any spell higher than 3rd level that she can cast, but to do so, she must expend a spell slot of the same level. These special concoctions do not cost her anything to create and function like extracts created by an alchemist with the infusion discovery."

Emphasis mine.

Notice the lack of the previous entry's emphasis on druid spells only.

[eldskald]

Eldskald, I was referring to the last portion of the ability:


"Additionally, at 7th level, a druid can create any herbal concoction in 1 minute. She can also create a special concoction of any spell higher than 3rd level that she can cast, but to do so, she must expend a spell slot of the same level. These special concoctions do not cost her anything to create and function like extracts created by an alchemist with the infusion discovery."

Emphasis mine.

Notice the lack of the previous entry's emphasis on druid spells only.

Thing is, by definition, a herbal concoction is:

"A druid who chooses to learn druidic herbalism can use combinations of nuts, berries, dried herbs, and other natural ingredients along with appropriate containers to create herbal concoctions or magic consumables that function like potions. This acts like the Brew Potion feat, but only for spells on the druid spell list. Herbal concoctions are typically thick and sludgy, and their creation time, caster level, spell duplication capabilities, and all other variables and properties are identical to those of potions created using Brew Potion. Herbal concoctions created with herbs that cause special effects when ingested retain those effects as well as the appropriate spell effect."

I understood that the bolded part on your quote referred to the fact that brew potion can only make potions of spells with lv 3 or smaller. But of course it is debatable, and I got your point.