"Arena-style" sorcerers with randomized spells

[Dark Destiny]

In Hearthstone (a CCG), there's an "Arena" mode in which players construct a deck by choosing each card from among three randomly-selected alternatives. Arena decks are considered significantly weaker than normal "constructed" decks, but still leave a lot of room for player creativity in choosing cards.

What if sorcerers worked the same way? Whenever you learn a spell, you randomly roll up three options from an appropriate list of spells (re-rolling if it's something you already know). Then you choose one from these three. Retraining works the same way: you choose the spell to forget, roll up three possible replacements, and choose one. If you get really unlucky you might end up with no good options, but you still can't undo your decision to forget the old spell.

I think this doesn't reduce the thematic flexibility of the sorcerer class compared to fixed-list classes such as the Beguiler or DN, but it severely limits the amount of optimization that's possible. Of course, it adds a significant luck factor, but I think that just adds more fun and anticipation of wondering what spell you'll learn next.

I think this change would put sorcerers solidly into T3. What does the playground think?

[Nifft]

Still T2 if you're allowed to create a new character upon PC death.

You will *eventually* get the spells you want.

It's just a lot of annoying re-rolls.

[Dark Destiny]

Still T2 if you're allowed to create a new character upon PC death.

You will *eventually* get the spells you want.

If you just want one or two specific spells, sure. If you want ten specific spells? You'll still be rolling while the rest of the PCs are defeating the BBEG and saving the world. That means you contributed nothing, so you're T6 if not worse.

[Nifft]

If you just want one or two specific spells, sure. If you want ten specific spells? You'll still be rolling while the rest of the PCs are defeating the BBEG and saving the world. That means you contributed nothing, so you're T6 if not worse.

Why would you roll your many, many characters at a time of week when there is a gaming session in progress? That's just poor planning.

You've made a nuisance mechanic, which can be overcome by bad-faith on the part of a player, and you're asking if the nuisance mechanic is able to impose balance. It's not. It's only able to impose a nuisance, and reward bad-faith play ("Oh the dice didn't go my way? Okay, the character kills himself and I roll up another one.").

Making an option annoying is not sufficient for balancing that option.

[Dark Destiny]

Why would you roll your many, many characters at a time of week when there is a gaming session in progress? That's just poor planning.

You've made a nuisance mechanic, which can be overcome by bad-faith on the part of a player, and you're asking if the nuisance mechanic is able to impose balance. It's not. It's only able to impose a nuisance, and reward bad-faith play ("Oh the dice didn't go my way? Okay, the character kills himself and I roll up another one.").

Making an option annoying is not sufficient for balancing that option.

I don't think game options have to be balanced against outright cheating in order to be considered balanced. Although point buy is pretty common, generating ability scores using die rolls is also a time-honored tradition, and nobody says it's broken because you could cheat and claim to have rolled better. If it's really such an issue then the DM can roll the dice for you.

[Andezzar]

While I agree claiming to have rolled all 18s or the "perfect spell list" is cheating, rerolling multiple times until you get something acceptable or making new characters as long as they have too bad stats/spell selection is not, it is just an annoyance.

Even if everyone rolls only once and does not try to kill their characters to get new ones, there is still the issue that some players will have a much better tarting point than others. That by definition is bad balance.

[Gellhorn]

It's a bad idea for the same reason making the fighter pick their feats at random is a bad idea. Sure, they might work out alright, or they might work out poorly. But you're taking away a large part of their character creation (and their character sheet is pretty much all they *can* design) , while not even managing to solve a balance problem. If there's spells you don't like, deal with them. Don't say "no you get random spells and I hope the problematic ones don't turn up."

[Calthropstu]

I agree with the others, as a character creation concept this is awful.

[Thurbane]

So, if I'm understanding, this is a mechanic to randomize Sorcerer spells known.

...I'm not entirely sure what the point of this premise is. Do you feel Sorcerers to be too powerful? Are you trying to put Sorcerers in the same Tier as Beguilers?

Would Wizards, who can add to and customize their spells lists almost infinitely through expenditure of wealth and time, exist alongside these nerfed Sorcerers?

[Jormengand]

It's theoretically a decent way of doing it. Players who are going to get themselves deliberately killed to get better spells will a) as far as the rules are written IIRC end up going to halfway through the previous level each time, and therefore likely have a bad day and b) probably be problem players anyway.

However, there's a few problems: just like in arena there are some car... uh, spells which are just really good, and some which are terrible. You should probably remove all of them from the random pool, and at that point haven't you fixed the problems with sorcerer anyway?

Of course, there's a way we can test this out. Let's grab ourselves a, say, sixth level sorcerer, and actually roll some dice and see how good a list I can make.

Acid Splash/Arcane Mark/Detect Poison
Open-Close/Touch of Fatigue/Read Magic
Mending/Detect Magic/Ghost Sound
Detect Magic/Dancing Lights/Touch of Fatigue
Ray of Frost/Resistance/Open-Close
Open-Close/Detect Poison/Mage Hand
Disrupt Undead/Mending/Resistance

Mage Armour/Erase/Alarm
Alarm/Obscuring Mist/Summon Monster I
Magic Missile/Cause Fear/Chill Touch
Identify/Mount/Expeditious Retreat

Whispering Wind/Alter Self/Command Undead
Glitterdust/Bull's Strength/Knock

Clairaudience-Clairvoyance/Gentle Repose/Greater Magic Weapon

Even with this system, I've got my hands on the ridiculous chill touch (though at sixth level it's barely beginning to break the bounds of what's normal for a first-level spell), alter self, and not!scrying, though I missed a few other spells. In general, you're limiting the sorcerer's number of ways to break the game more than you're limiting the extent to which they can do so.

[emeraldstreak]

I think this change would put sorcerers solidly into T3. What does the playground think?

Wish and T3 don't mess.

[Dark Destiny]

So, if I'm understanding, this is a mechanic to randomize Sorcerer spells known.

...I'm not entirely sure what the point of this premise is. Do you feel Sorcerers to be too powerful? Are you trying to put Sorcerers in the same Tier as Beguilers?

Would Wizards, who can add to and customize their spells lists almost infinitely through expenditure of wealth and time, exist alongside these nerfed Sorcerers?

That depends on the campaign. There are plenty of people who prefer T3 campaigns; there's a whole thread going on right now about how to nerf T1 and T2. So in that context, no, arena sorcerers wouldn't exist alongside T1 wizards. They would exist alongside arena favored souls and arena psions, however.

I'm certainly interested in the question of whether any similar kind of arena mod could work for wizards, but since they can learn an arbitrary number of spells throughout their career it's hard to see how to directly apply this idea. I imagine that any campaign with arena sorcerers would either have some totally different strategy for nerfing wizards, or would disallow wizards completely. If anyone can see a good way to build an arena wizard then I'm interested in hearing it, but otherwise I think it's outside of the scope of this thread to discuss whether and exactly how to nerf wizards.

[Dark Destiny]

Even with this system, I've got my hands on the ridiculous chill touch (though at sixth level it's barely beginning to break the bounds of what's normal for a first-level spell), alter self, and not!scrying, though I missed a few other spells. In general, you're limiting the sorcerer's number of ways to break the game more than you're limiting the extent to which they can do so.

At least you didn't end up with nothing but ridiculous spells, which I think separates this from tier 2.

I agree that the luck factor is a bit of a balance issue, but I think it tends to even out in the long run, as per the law of large numbers. At level 1 there will be significant differences in character optimization, but by level 6-10 I think they're less pronounced.

[awa]

Im not a fan because it prevents thematic necromancer, or pyromancer etc sorcerers in favor of random grab bag casters. At high level this might be fine but i worry at low level you might just end up with nonviable characters, trying to go into battle at level 1 without shield or armor is just a good way to die.

So while interesting i dont think it works out well

edit
if you work the system to remove the worst options that are individually game breaking or so bad they never get used, I could see this being interesting, we would seem much more variety in what spells people actually use. But at the end of the day I wouldn't want to play with this, to random for my taste.

[Florian]

I'm certainly interested in the question of whether any similar kind of arena mod could work for wizards, but since they can learn an arbitrary number of spells throughout their career it's hard to see how to directly apply this idea. I imagine that any campaign with arena sorcerers would either have some totally different strategy for nerfing wizards, or would disallow wizards completely. If anyone can see a good way to build an arena wizard then I'm interested in hearing it, but otherwise I think it's outside of the scope of this thread to discuss whether and exactly how to nerf wizards.

Keep in mind how wizards and acquiring spells used to work in AD&D: You´ve got to find them and then ry to add them to your spell book. No buying, no trading, nothing, just loot. (Yes, I know that a lot of people have house-ruled that, but that doesn´t matter for this discussion)

[Andezzar]

Keep in mind how wizards and acquiring spells used to work in AD&D: You´ve got to find them and then ry to add them to your spell book. No buying, no trading, nothing, just loot. (Yes, I know that a lot of people have house-ruled that, but that doesn´t matter for this discussion)So you are at the whim of the DM, which essentially is the same as banning certain spells.

[Florian]

So you are at the whim of the DM, which essentially is the same as banning certain spells.

No, you´re at the whim of the loot creation table that have an infinitesimal small chance to create a scroll or spell book.

Now think about why oven mid to high level Wizards tried to apprentice to some of the magical bigwigs. "Spellllllssssss... Gimme da spelllllssss."

So our "arena"-modified spells known casters might end up with ....well... let´s call them "very situational" spells, but at least they have some things at their back and call, unlike an unlucky wizard.

[Zanos]

Keep in mind how wizards and acquiring spells used to work in AD&D: You´ve got to find them and then ry to add them to your spell book. No buying, no trading, nothing, just loot. (Yes, I know that a lot of people have house-ruled that, but that doesn´t matter for this discussion)
Most AD&D spells ranged from good to extremely good, though.

3.5 has a lot of nearly useless spells. Oh boy, ablate dracorage!

I'd give a 3.5 caster, especially a Sorcerer, a hard pass under completely random spell selection.

[Florian]

Most AD&D spells ranged from good to extremely good, though.

Remember those 4 leather bound books of spells? All good? Same as the volumes on magic items. Really want to roll on that list?

[Calthropstu]

Remember those 4 leather bound books of spells? All good? Same as the volumes on magic items. Really want to roll on that list?
I sure don't. Though, to be fair, there were amazing spells from 2ed that were never carried over.