What class makes the best tank?

[xroads]

In your opinion, what class makes the best tank?

At the moment I'm thinking fighter (battlemaster) with protection style & the sentinel feat. But I can definitely see arguements for other classes.

[Specter]

It depends on what you mean by 'tank'. Most of the time, when people say 'tank' they really mean 'sponge', a guy who can take more hits than anyone else. But judging by protection style above, I think you mean a 'protector of more frail friends'. In which case, I'd probably go with Wolf Barbarian with Sentinel.

[MaxWilson]

In your opinion, what class makes the best tank?

At the moment I'm thinking fighter (battlemaster) with protection style & the sentinel feat. But I can definitely see arguements for other classes.

Paladin 6+/Sorcerer 3+ multiclass w/ Quickened and Extended metamagics. You get all the saving throw/aura goodness of paladins plus the defensive goodness of spells (Quickened Blur; Shield; Quickened Enlarge + grappling/shoving prone; Shield of Faith; Thunderous/Wrathful Smite; Sanctuary; Expeditious Retreat; Find Steed for mobility) plus the ability to top off your HP between combats via Extended Aura of Vitality (140 HP of healing per cast--cheap at the price), and of course you can heal other party members too.

Pick up the Warcaster feat at some point so you can cast Booming Blade on an opportunity attack. A Thunderous/Wrathful Booming Blade opportunity attack (requires the Smite spell to have been pre-cast; it isn't included in the Warcaster free casting) is a great incentive for enemies NOT to risk your opportunity attacks. It also helps you keep concentration on your Enlarge spells/etc., and means you don't have to juggle your weapon for Shield casting. It's a great feat for a Paladorc tank.

[Ralanr]

Bear totem polearm master sentinel from official content seems pretty good.

Ancestors barbarian is basically built to hold aggro though.

[JellyPooga]

Rogues are very high on the list, probably a contender for the top spot. Sneak Attack makes them a credible threat with regard to OA's, Uncanny Dodge stops them dying from "drawing aggro" and Evasion means the party artillery can happily blast away with them right there in the midst of the target area. A decent Con more than makes up for their lowish HD and Hill Dwarves and Tough exist if you're that concerned about HP. Arcane Tricksters have a slew of defensive options, including Shield, Haste and Mirror Image. Out of the box, Rogues make great tanks.

[xroads]

It depends on what you mean by 'tank'. Most of the time, when people say 'tank' they really mean 'sponge', a guy who can take more hits than anyone else. But judging by protection style above, I think you mean a 'protector of more frail friends'. In which case, I'd probably go with Wolf Barbarian with Sentinel.

Yeah, I'm thinking more of the protector type than the hit point sponge. The type of tank that's good at drawing aggro. I know there aren't such cleary defined roles in 5e, but I figure some classes are better at than others.

[nickl_2000]

Yeah, I'm thinking more of the protector type than the hit point sponge. The type of tank that's good at drawing aggro. I know there aren't such cleary defined roles in 5e, but I figure some classes are better at than others.

Bearbarians are probably your best bet. Although there is something to a moon druid with sentinel as well. Nothing says pay attention and attack me like a giant dinosaur in their face.

[mephnick]

Oath of the Crown has the best tank ability in the game. It literally prevents everyone from leaving your area and attacking your casters.

[Lombra]

Paladins are probably the best all-round tanks (HP, AC, aggro, saves), but depending on the situation barbarians are good too. The empty body monk is pretty effective too.

[DivisibleByZero]

Rogues are very high on the list, probably a contender for the top spot. Sneak Attack makes them a credible threat with regard to OA's, Uncanny Dodge stops them dying from "drawing aggro" and Evasion means the party artillery can happily blast away with them right there in the midst of the target area. A decent Con more than makes up for their lowish HD and Hill Dwarves and Tough exist if you're that concerned about HP. Arcane Tricksters have a slew of defensive options, including Shield, Haste and Mirror Image. Out of the box, Rogues make great tanks.

This.
Many people see the word Rogue and they think of a squishy little striker who dies if you look at him the wrong way. But in the reality of DnD5e, Rogues are amazingly versatile, and they can be built to do almost anything you want your character to be able to do, tanking included.

[Lombra]

This.
Many people see the word Rogue and they think of a squishy little striker who dies if you look at him the wrong way. But in the reality of DnD5e, Rogues are amazingly versatile, and they can be built to do almost anything you want your character to be able to do, tanking included.

Well except for when you are tanking something that can attack you multiple times, that can freely move after you uncanny dodge his attack.

I'm not buying it.

[DivisibleByZero]

Well except for when you are tanking something that can attack you multiple times, that can freely move after you uncanny dodge his attack.

I'm not buying it.

What are you buying then? The Paladin's non-existent alternative? The Fighter's non-existent alternative?
The difference between a Rogue and either of them is 1hp/level. One. And he has a bunch of tools to survive.
A raging Barbarian has an alternative, sure, but they're usually much easier to hit in the first place so they need it more. But we're discussing what's possible, and a tanking Rogue is just that. Possible. I've seen it myself, used to great effect.
Rogues are a TON more survivable than people generally seem to think; that viewpoint being largely based on non-applicable experiences from previous editions.

[Lombra]

What are you buying then? The Paladin's non-existent alternative? The Fighter's non-existent alternative?
A raging Barbarian has an alternative, sure, but they're usually much easier to hit in the first place so they need it more. But we're discussing what's possible, and a tanking Rogue is just that. Possible. I've seen it myself, used to great effect.

I'm not buying the assumption that a tanky rogue build as a "top tier" tank build.
I'd totally pick pally over rogue under any tank-needed situation. The rogue's kit is designed to allow him to get in and out of the hot zone, uncanny dodge is designed to mitigate retreating opportunity attacks so that you can use your bonus action to hide away and strike back. Put a rogue versus a threatful multiattack creature and he's gonna melt.
It does have corner cases where he's effective, no doubt, but put a paladin in place of him and you'll see that he performs as good if not better.

And I'm not biased. I don't like paladins. I can just see their strengths, as well as the rogue's, and tanking is not a strength of the rogue.

[Biggstick]

I truly think it depends on what you're going up against to determine the best tank. Here are my choices for best tank based on particular situations.

1. My first choice is a Totem (Bear) Barbarian. I would suggest medium armor, a shield, Sentinel, and Resilient Wisdom. I would personally multiclass with Rogue after 5-6 levels of Barbarian, but the class works just as well as a tank being a pure Barbarian. The weakness of this class though, is Intelligence and Charisma saves (and Wisdom saves until you get Resilient Wisdom). You're dependent on allies to help you deal with Int/Cha saves.

2. My second choice would be an OotA Paladin. This archetype is amazing at standing up against casters, as well as defending itself against them. They will have a pretty solid bonus to saves (they can consider Resilient Con) with their save aura and Bless. They will eventually have a pair of don't die abilities (Death Ward at level 13 and an Oath specific don't die mechanic at 15), and their level 20 grants them HP regen. Weaknesses I see with the class in regards to tanking include damage reduction that isn't spell based. OotA Paladins are amazing when dealing with spell casters, but when dealing with anything else dealing massive amount of damage (certain Dragon breaths), Paladins in general won't stand up for long.

3. My third choice is an OoD Paladin. Similar to OotA, these Paladins are great when put up against a pretty specific group of creatures. Anything that charms you, or is an: Aberration, Celestial, Elemental, Fey, Fiend, or Undead, will have a tough time against your OoD Paladin. Essentially, any time you're dealing with something not of the prime material plane, an OoD Paladin will be an ideal tank. These Paladins have a similar weakness to massive amounts of burst though, as they don't have any real damage reduction available to them.

If you know what the campaign is going to focus on story wise, you could choose a "tank" that does well in that particular scenario. If the big bad is going to potentially be a Lich, both OotA and OoD will probably do well. If the big bad is going to be a Tarrasque, your Barbarian might be a decent choice.

This is all theory craft though. I'm sure there are others who have actually played the role of tank beyond the first 12 levels of the game who can provide more insight.

[Findulidas]

What are you buying then? The Paladin's non-existent alternative? The Fighter's non-existent alternative?
A raging Barbarian has an alternative, sure, but they're usually much easier to hit in the first place so they need it more. But we're discussing what's possible, and a tanking Rogue is just that. Possible. I've seen it myself, used to great effect.

We are actually talking about the best tank here though. You gotta go into detail a lot more after saying paladins and fighters non-existent alternatives as well.

[Zene]

"Drawing aggro" is a really tough concept in 5e. For any reasonably intelligent enemy, if there's a character you want them to hit, they specifically *don't* want to hit it for the same reason. And you can't really force them to attack you, only incentivise it.

The best you can really do is get enemies next to you and then keep them there. Sentinel helps a lot with this. Booming blade helps a little (but conflicts with extra attack). Thorn whip, grappling, and the Crown and Vengeance paladin abilities can help too. As can control or battlefield control spells like plant growth, the various Walls, Illusions, hold monster, hypnotic pattern, etc. But no one's really great at it, and it's hard to build a character around if that's your main goal.

I've had a lot of luck with a barbarian/rogue grappler with lots of lovement speed. Very hard to kill, is a good target for the enemy, and can lock down 1-2 enemies quite well if they're Huge or smaller. But can be taken down pretty easily with wisdom-save spells.


Paladin 6+/Sorcerer 3+ multiclass w/ Quickened and Extended metamagics. You get all the saving throw/aura goodness of paladins plus the defensive goodness of spells (Quickened Blur; Shield; Quickened Enlarge + grappling/shoving prone; Shield of Faith; Thunderous/Wrathful Smite; Sanctuary; Expeditious Retreat; Find Steed for mobility) plus the ability to top off your HP between combats via Extended Aura of Vitality (140 HP of healing per cast--cheap at the price), and of course you can heal other party members too.


Just a note here: Paladins don't get Aura of Vitality until L9, so you're lookina at CL12 before you can do the extended vitality trick.

The rest of this sounds pretty fun, but honestly with a pal 6+ / sorc 3+ you are gonna be so good at dpr that it's going to be tempting to just mostly do that. Like yeah you could quicken enlarge and grapple; *or* you could use that turn to quicken booming blade and then make two attacks with your action, plus two smites or 1 second-level smite (like if you crit), for the same spell slot / sorc point cost. Since most fights only last a few rounds, it's rare that the latter will actually be the better option.

[Corran]

What are you buying then? The Paladin's non-existent alternative? The Fighter's non-existent alternative?
The difference between a Rogue and either of them is 1hp/level. One. And he has a bunch of tools to survive.

And better AC. And better saves (I guess the rogue catches up when he hits level 15 and gets slippery mind; level 15 assuming he is not multiclassing in fighter, which is sth a melee tank-ish rogue should definitely look into). And some/better healing. And lots and lots of class/subclass features and spells that were designed with melee combat in mind. Think of sentinel as an example. Paladins and fighters can use it to a greater extent, while for a rogue, it is essentially a death trap (though it can be really useful under a mc'ed rogue build, specifically built around sentinel -though this build would be more of an off-tank, rather than an actual tank).

Rogues are not unviable for frontlining, just they are suboptimal for it. Fighter/rogues (with many rogue levels) can be better at it, but they will act more as a dpr with enhanced survivability rather than a tank, and it would take very specific and carefully planned builds (and probably other melee allies) to achieve that imo (and I am not sure if it would be viable at the high levels). Not sure about babrbarogues...

Evasion is honestly situational, and cunning action is not that great for tanking, unless we are talking about duels?
Rogues do get a few good defensive tools, but none of them makes them really good at tanking imo.

[Ninja-Radish]

I would say Barbarian but rage is ridiculously easy to shut down. Charm, fear, or pretty much any effect that requires a Wisdom save will end their rage. Especially with the Barb's crappy Wis saves.

Paladin and Fighter are both much better tanks.

[DivisibleByZero]

I'm not buying the assumption that a tanky rogue build as a "top tier" tank build.

Elf
Str 9, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 8
or Str 8, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 16, Wis 12, Cha 8 if you wanted to add/subtract one from your AC/WisSave
Fighter 1+ / Bladesinger Wizard 2+ / Arcane Trickster 7+ with Sentinel feat
Best tank in the game.

Fighter 1+ for Protection style and Second Wind
Bladesinger Wizard 2+ for Spellcasting (Healing Elixir), minor Arcane Recovery, Minor Ritual Casting, and Bladesong
Arcane Trickster 7+ for Cunning Action, Spellcasting, Uncanny Dodge, Evasion

You could finish Rogue from there of you wanted to, leaving f1/w2/r17
Or you could add a few more Fighter levels for another ASI and Battle Master.
Or you could add a few more levels of Fighter for more of an even split and go EK, ending f7/w2/r11.
The options really open up. But elven f1/w2/r7 is the base for the best tank in the game.


And better AC.

That's a misrepresentation. The difference in AC between Dex light armor and heavy armor is literally one point. But if you have Bladesong, you have the best potential AC in the game.

[Zene]

Rogues do get a few good defensive tools, but none of them makes them really good at tanking imo.

Well I agree they're better multi-classed. But in terms of suvivability: Evasion is amazing, Uncanny Dodge is amazing. If you're tanking as a rogue you're almost certainly going Trickster, in which case Shield is amazing as well. Plus Mirror Image and Blur. For stickiness: Booming Blade is quite nice, and doesn't have Extra Attack to conflict with it like it does in the other tank classes; expertise in athletics for grapple/shove is amazing. And for positioning, you absolutely cannot beat cunning action dodge (edit: I meant dash) and/or disengage. You are right where you want to be from round 1 onward, while that Dwarf Battlemaster is still 30 feet from the enemy caster.

[Findulidas]

And for positioning, you absolutely cannot beat cunning action dodge and/or disengage. You are right where you want to be from round 1 onward, while that Dwarf Battlemaster is still 30 feet from the enemy caster.

You cant use cunning action to dodge.

Also you need seven levels of arcane rogue in order to get to blur and mirror. Thats really late if you plan to MC I think.

[DivisibleByZero]

You cant use cunning action to dodge.

Also you need seven levels of arcane rogue in order to get to blur and mirror. Thats really late if you plan to MC I think.

Again, f1/w2/r7+ is the best tank in the game. If you want them faster, they're only one level of wiz away.

[MaxWilson]

What are you buying then? The Paladin's non-existent alternative? The Fighter's non-existent alternative?
The difference between a Rogue and either of them is 1hp/level. One. And he has a bunch of tools to survive.
A raging Barbarian has an alternative, sure, but they're usually much easier to hit in the first place so they need it more. But we're discussing what's possible, and a tanking Rogue is just that. Possible. I've seen it myself, used to great effect.
Rogues are a TON more survivable than people generally seem to think; that viewpoint being largely based on non-applicable experiences from previous editions.

Non-existent alternative? Not so. The problem with your rogue is that you're relying on Uncanny Dodge to do two things at once: keep you alive, and prevent the enemy from bypassing you. So an enemy who has already forced you to Uncanny Dodge can bypass you freely.

Here's the Paladorc's alternative in that situation:

Quickened Enlarge followed by Attack (Grapple) + Extra Attack (Shove prone). Now the enemy doesn't even have the option of bypassing you; if there are additional enemies around you can still punish them with Booming Blade + Divine Smite for up to 13d8+5 (63) points of damage, which ought to make an impression.

Here's the Fighter's alternative:

Take the Sentinel feat (fighter bonus ASI) and Dodge. Now the enemy has to choose between trying (ineffectively) to hit the fighter, or trying (ineffectively) to bypass him. It's not fool-proof either way but it's a pretty strong move.


Just a note here: Paladins don't get Aura of Vitality until L9, so you're lookina at CL12 before you can do the extended vitality trick.

Yes. I thought about putting the word "eventually" in there but decided that "paladin 6+" already implied that. But yes, you do have to hit CL12+ to make this work. I suggest starting as Paladin, picking up S1 sometime very early, and then hitting P6 before picking up S2 and S3. From experience, I'd also say don't pick up S4 until you've hit at least P9--the extra ASI isn't as much fun as Aura of Vitality would be. Consider going straight for P9S1, depending on party composition and how much you are coveting Blur or Enlarge and metamagics. If Shield is covering most of your defensive needs adequately then I'd go for P9 before S3.


The rest of this sounds pretty fun, but honestly with a pal 6+ / sorc 3+ you are gonna be so good at dpr that it's going to be tempting to just mostly do that. Like yeah you could quicken enlarge and grapple; *or* you could use that turn to quicken booming blade and then make two attacks with your action, plus two smites or 1 second-level smite (like if you crit), for the same spell slot / sorc point cost. Since most fights only last a few rounds, it's rare that the latter will actually be the better option.

Well, it depends on what you're facing. I'm a bit of a cheapskate so if I can I'd prefer to grapple/prone without any quickening at all; if there are four Chuuls (vs. level 9 party) and I can take one of them out of the fight immediately with Grapple + Shove prone, I will, especially if terrain is such that it can happen in a chokepoint. If it works, it's tantamount to 1-hit-killing the 93 HP Chuul, but it's free. Compare to the cost/benefit of Quickened Booming Blade + 2 attacks with Divine Smite: that's 2 sorcery points and two spell slots in order to deal 8d8+3 (39) damage, which still leaves that Chuul at over 58% HP. Taking him down with grappling is both cheaper AND more effective.

If one of my Athletic contests fails, I may be left with a grappled-but-not-prone Chuul, in which case I may want to drop a Sanctuary on myself to protect against paralyzation; but I've still taken one of the Chuuls out of the fight and bought time and space for the ranged party members to kill the other Chuuls.

If both my Athletic contests succeed (will happen around 1/3 of the time) I can then spend my bonus action on Wrathful Smite to enhance my opportunity attack.

[Coranhann]

To answer the OP directly:

While there is a lot of talk about alternatives, Fighter is a strong option, depending on the feats you take.

As a few people said, there is different aspect to tanking:
1 - Ability to withstand hits.
2 - Ability to protect your party from being hit.
3 - Ability to pass saves.

Shield master is a good investment. Not just for the Dex save effect, but to shove people away from your friend. (good combo with Sentinel)
Resilient in Wisdom is almost mendatory for a real tank. You can't just "sponge".
Sentinel is definitely a great one, usually paired with Polearm master but it's not mendatory.
Mage Slayer is a great way of tanking mages.
Don't forget about Luck. Rerolling save is great!

Battlemaster mainly gives you the goading attacks (against a save)

Eldritch Knight gives you way to control the opponent and upgrade your AC to crazy high levels.
Fun idea, not for optimization but for fun: Take the "Friends" cantrip, and use it on a creature, breaking concentration instantly. "A violent creature might attack you" ... cool, that's what you were looking for!

Fighter in general gives you access to ASI for feats.

Then, there is the option of going Multi-class.

- Abjuration Wizards who start with 1 level of fighter can be great tanks.

- Level 6 paladin, with a few extra added fighters level, provide enough fighting styles, saves and AC to get around.

Many options, many ways of tanking, good luck picking one!

[Ralanr]

I would say Barbarian but rage is ridiculously easy to shut down. Charm, fear, or pretty much any effect that requires a Wisdom save will end their rage. Especially with the Barb's crappy Wis saves.

Paladin and Fighter are both much better tanks.

This is why any bearbarian that wants to tank needs to get Res(Wis).

[Findulidas]

To answer the OP directly:

While there is a lot of talk about alternatives, Fighter is a strong option.

I agree. Its simple. It works. Its built around doing it. No multiclassing needed. No spells needed. If you dont have a need to tank you can still hit hard. Its a solid choice, specially for anyone who is new.

[Zene]

You cant use cunning action to dodge.

Also you need seven levels of arcane rogue in order to get to blur and mirror. Thats really late if you plan to MC I think.

Yeah sorry typo, "dodge" should have been "dash" (hence the next sentence about positioning).

Blur and Mirror are just two tools on top of all the other things I mentioned. No class is going to give you 8+ tanking tools right up front; they're all going to have progression.

To be clear, I'm definitely not saying rogue is the best tank. I'm just responding to the claim that they don't get much in terms of tanking tools. In fact they get more than most traditional classes thought of as tanks. And if built/played smart they can be amazing tanks.

[Belltent]

Eldritch Knight can stick, control, and get crazy high AC.

Ancestral Barb can prevent incoming damage to party members and mark targets.

[Ninja-Radish]

This is why any bearbarian that wants to tank needs to get Res(Wis).

Very much in agreement with you there.

[Findulidas]

This is why any bearbarian that wants to tank needs to get Res(Wis).

I suppose all tanks want proficiency in wis saves. I wish there was a nice way to get that diamond soul.

[DivisibleByZero]

Blur and Mirror are just two tools on top of all the other things I mentioned. No class is going to give you 8+ tanking tools right up front; they're all going to have progression.

To be clear, I'm definitely not saying rogue is the best tank. I'm just responding to the claim that they don't get much in terms of tanking tools. In fact they get more than most traditional classes thought of as tanks. And if built/played smart they can be amazing tanks.

With a tiny little bit of multiclassing, I absolutely am making that claim, precisely for the reasons that you listed. Add Int to AC (and an optional fighting style) onto everything they get, and you've got the best tank in the game.

[Emay Ecks]

I think a good tank should be able to either draw enemy aggression or prevent enemies from being able to target the fragile backline. There have been several good suggestions so far, but consider having a tanky caster on the frontline. They will be targeted by every intelligent enemy you fight.

I am playing an incredibly fun tanky druid of the coast right now. Druids are incredible at generating threat and agro against intelligent enemies. What kind of intelligent enemy isn't going to target the caster concentrating on Call Lightning?

I've been stacking AC to get it to 20 (+1 studded leather, cloak of protection (the +1 to saves is fantastic as well), a +1 wooden shield and 16 DEX). I took the War Caster and Resilient (Con) feats to never fail concentration saves. As a coast druid I also get Mirror Image which reduces the likelihood of actually being hit.

It's probably not as optimal as a lot of the other classes suggested here, but it's certainly a fun option to consider.

[MaxWilson]

Elf
Str 9, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 8
or Str 8, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 16, Wis 12, Cha 8 if you wanted to add/subtract one from your AC/WisSave
Fighter 1+ / Bladesinger Wizard 2+ / Arcane Trickster 7+ with Sentinel feat
Best tank in the game.

Fighter 1+ for Protection style and Second Wind
Bladesinger Wizard 2+ for Spellcasting (Healing Elixir), minor Arcane Recovery, Minor Ritual Casting, and Bladesong
Arcane Trickster 7+ for Cunning Action, Spellcasting, Uncanny Dodge, Evasion

You could finish Rogue from there of you wanted to, leaving f1/w2/r17
Or you could add a few more Fighter levels for another ASI and Battle Master.
Or you could add a few more levels of Fighter for more of an even split and go EK, ending f7/w2/r11.
The options really open up. But elven f1/w2/r7 is the base for the best tank in the game.

Best tank in what way? I see your 10th level Fighter/Bladesinger/ArcaneTrickster has an AC of 16, 19 after spending a bonus action to initiate Bladesinging, perhaps 20 if he spent his sole ASI on Dex or Int. He has a reasonably strong opportunity attack (d8+4d6+3 (21.5)) if he can get Sneak Attack to apply, and a weak opportunity attack if he can't (e.g. no other tanks in play).

A human Paladin 9/Sorc 1 Warcaster has as a better opportunity attack (4d8+3 (21.0), only one point lower, plus a Divine Smite option if desired, and it's not dependent on having other tanks in play), two free ASIs for other stuff like boosting Cha or Lucky, and better AC (21).

In what way is the Arcane Trickster a better tank, let alone the best tank in the game?

[Corran]

Elf
That's a misrepresentation. The difference in AC between Dex light armor and heavy armor is literally one point. But if you have Bladesong, you have the best potential AC in the game.
Bladesong aside (since we are talking about rogues - if you have in mind some specific rogue/bladesinger build, then I may or may not change my mind if you explain how it would come together as a tank; not very familiar with bladesingers to speculate on my own), we are talking about a difference roughly of 3-4 AC points. Which is not that negligible, in fact it is a big difference.

Even if you throw on top of an 17-ish AC, defensive boosts like blur and shield (as Zene mentions in her post), then you are still underperforming, and significantly so, when compared with a build that has a base AC of 20-21. Disdvantage on incoming attacks will typically work better for the build with the higher AC (saying typically, because it depends on the enemies' attack bonus, but that just means that a higher AC can profit better from it in the majority of cases, hence typically). And moreover, the less you get hit, the less you need to rely on shield, for which you have only so many casts per day. Edit: And also while you spent your reaction, which means no reaction attacks, which would be the big selling point of a frontliner rogue (if built right).



Well I agree they're better multi-classed. But in terms of suvivability: Evasion is amazing, Uncanny Dodge is amazing. If you're tanking as a rogue you're almost certainly going Trickster, in which case Shield is amazing as well. Plus Mirror Image and Blur. For stickiness: Booming Blade is quite nice, and doesn't have Extra Attack to conflict with it like it does in the other tank classes; expertise in athletics for grapple/shove is amazing. And for positioning, you absolutely cannot beat cunning action dodge (edit: I meant dash) and/or disengage. You are right where you want to be from round 1 onward, while that Dwarf Battlemaster is still 30 feet from the enemy caster.
I dont think evasion and uncanny dodge are that good, as tanking abilities, but let me put that aside and talk a bit about the AT strategy you presented.

Shield is a good spell, yes. But, an arcane trickster picking that, is doing that at the cost of another non-enchantment/illusion spell, say, find familiar, which is so good for boosting the AT's dpr. Moreover, to really profit from shield, you need to have a very good AC (as I say to my answer to DBZ above), not only because with a good AC you will spam it less (remember, shield spends spell slots), and not only because you will use it to better effect (since it lasts till your next turn), but also because it competes with uncanny dodge in the most unfavourable way. When you get hit, you will be presented with a serious dilemma (not an actual dilemma, more like trap options, but I digress): Do I use my shield which costs valuable resources and I can only do it that many times per day, in the hopes that it will raise my mediocre AC so that I avoid getting hit, possibly protecting me from more incoming attacks till my next turn? Or do I take the hit and use uncanny dodge with my reaction, that does not cost me any resources, but that leaves me more open to more incoming attacks (which as a tank, is something that is logical to expect)? And all that, while shield will cost you, resources aside, a valuable non-enchantment/illusion pick.

About mirror image and blur (see my point in my answer to DBZ about blur), they are good spells for a tank. But they cost you an action. And a rogue losing actions not attacking (no matter their role, their damage is good and they should always aim to proc sneak attack, afterall killing things means less incoming attacks, so offense is relative to tanking that way -and in other ways, but I digress once again), is a rogue not doing their job well. Granted, with a fighter dip that will get you action surge, that problem is mitigated a bit (or a lot, if you have good ways of maximizing your hit chance, and thus action surge will rarely be needed to make up for missed sneak attack opportunitites). But for a pure rogue, unless precasting these spells (or unless used in very corner case situations), I dont think wasting an action to cast them will be worth it most of the time.

Cunning action is usful for positioning, agreed, but a tank cannot really profit from this (or so I think, perhaps I am lacking imagination and haven't thought of sth important). It's more useful to striker and skirmisher types from what I can understand. BB is nice, but this is not really the control you should be hoping as a tank. Not bad (especially if you somehow get warcaster), but not that great either IMO. Certainly not enough on its own to justify stickiness.

[DivisibleByZero]

Bladesong aside (since we are talking about rogues - if you have in mind some specific rogue/bladesinger build, then I may or may not change my mind if you explain how it would come together as a tank; not very familiar with bladesingers to speculate on my own), we are talking about a difference roughly of 3-4 AC points. Which is not that negligible, in fact it is a big difference.

Even if you throw on top of an 17-ish AC, defensive boosts like blur and shield (as Zene mentions in her post), then you are still underperforming, and significantly so, when compared with a build that has a base AC of 20-21. Disdvantage on incoming attacks will typically work better for the build with the higher AC (saying typically, because it depends on the enemies' attack bonus, but that just means that a higher AC can profit better from it in the majority of cases, hence typically). And moreover, the less you get hit, the less you need to rely on shield, for which you have only so many casts per day.

The general idea for the build was already posted.
As for AC, with Studded you're looking at 12+Dex+Int, which is 18 out of the gate, right at level 2 if you decide to start with Wiz for some reason.
Add 1 for Defense if you choose that style. You can spend 4 of your 5 ASIs (or 6 if you go further into Fighter for War Magic) on stats, and you'll finish with AC23/AC28 with the shield spell, which get as high as 26/31 with magical armor.
Plus Blur (or ProtEvil) for disadvantage on that.
Plus Uncanny Dodge if you still manage to get hit and shield won't help for some unknown reason or if you want to save a slot.
Plus evasion so you can have your casters dropping bombs right on you.
So on and so forth.

[GlenSmash!]

Eldritch Knight can stick, control, and get crazy high AC.

Ancestral Barb can prevent incoming damage to party members and mark targets.

Great options. There's a lot more to being a Tank than just durability. You have to make the enemies want to attack YOU instead of your allies. Ancestral barbarian does great at this.

[Corran]

@DBZ: Ok, I had a quick look at it (so I may be missing sth important), and at first glance, it just seems to me a weaker version of a fighter/rogue sentinel build (specifically a str build, if we are interested in tanking, for better AC and STR saves). At least if the aim is for making sentinel viable and aiming at strong reaction attacks, for which you will also need melee allies (preferably of the type that can attract the enemies' attention).

Otherwise, meaning, if the above is not the aim (ie strong reactionary attacks), I just see it as an AC tank -just like a bladesinger- with slower access to ASIs, so I dont quite see the value in it (since bladesingers are not that great tanks on the whole).

[DivisibleByZero]

@DBZ: Ok, I had a quick look at it (so I may be missing sth important), and at first glance, it just seems to me a weaker version of a fighter/rogue sentinel build (specifically a str build, if we are interested in tanking, for better AC and STR saves). At least if the aim is for making sentinel viable and aiming at strong reaction attacks, for which you will also need melee allies (preferably of the type that can attract the enemies' attention).

Otherwise, meaning, if the above is not the aim (ie strong reactionary attacks), I just see it as an AC tank -just like a bladesinger- with slower access to ASIs, so I dont quite see the value in it (since bladesingers are not that great tanks on the whole).

The idea is that it creates a catch22.
If they attack you they'll probably miss. If they don't, they're going to take a beating.
Extreme AC and Sentinel combined with a powerful single strike (which uses no resources) is a ridiculously good tanking recipe.
Uncanny Dodge and Evasion are just gravy on top of that recipe.

[Lombra]

Elf
Str 9, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 8
or Str 8, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 16, Wis 12, Cha 8 if you wanted to add/subtract one from your AC/WisSave
Fighter 1+ / Bladesinger Wizard 2+ / Arcane Trickster 7+ with Sentinel feat
Best tank in the game.

Fighter 1+ for Protection style and Second Wind
Bladesinger Wizard 2+ for Spellcasting (Healing Elixir), minor Arcane Recovery, Minor Ritual Casting, and Bladesong
Arcane Trickster 7+ for Cunning Action, Spellcasting, Uncanny Dodge, Evasion

You could finish Rogue from there of you wanted to, leaving f1/w2/r17
Or you could add a few more Fighter levels for another ASI and Battle Master.
Or you could add a few more levels of Fighter for more of an even split and go EK, ending f7/w2/r11.
The options really open up. But elven f1/w2/r7 is the base for the best tank in the game.


I'm looking at a 19 AC guy (12+3+3+1) with:
20+10+8+35=73HP + (1d10+1)/short rest heal

Level 4 spellcasting slots (4 lv.1, 3 lv.2)
Shield 4/ long rest blur 3/long rest (with space for rituals for utility I guess) and some racial spells (faerie fire from drow is cool)

Very good at concentrating (3+2+4 =+9)

Pretty mobile

Bad damage output (unless you have a buddy near you 24/7)

It's hard to hit, and will likely take few damage in the long run, but it's saves are terrible and can lock down only one enemy at a time if he gets the chance to hit it. The fact that it doesn't do a lot of damage and that is not easy to hit is probably gonna drive the enemies towards someone else, so bad aggro. It is very survivable, but it's not a tank unless you are fighting in a 15feet corridor.

A paladin of equal level without much effort has marginally more HP(and a 50HP pool to cure whoever he wants) marginally more AC, more spells (5th level caster) and more damage. Spells include sanctuary and compelled duel, which manipulate aggro in his favor. Hos saves are beautiful, and if he really feels like it he can get PAM+sentinel and still get another ASI or for more HP (tough) or for even better saves (resilient) (variant human, no elf restriction).

Not to mention all of the aura goodies that he's getting (both for him and the party)

I'm not saying that you did not see a rogue tank in action, I'm saying that a tank rgue is a poor tank among the other options. But I like the build, I'd use it for skirmishing rather than tanking tho.

Eldritch knights are great tanks too.

[Sir cryosin]

Warlock 6 / bear barbarian 14. You pop armor of Agatha's then you go into rage. AoA gives temp HP and damage while rage half all that damage. You also get some fun invocations. I'll would go pact of the chain so I can pick the new invocation that when you roll to heal you get full heal. And clock of fly's could be fun to.

[Lombra]

Unpopular opinion: fighter1/bladelock x is one very spikey sticky piece of character with AoA and HAM. (And hellish rebuke but slow down with all those slots eh Lombra?)

Semi-shadow-monk'd.

[DivisibleByZero]

I'm looking at a 19 AC guy (12+3+3+1) with:
20+10+8+35=73HP + (1d10+1)/short rest heal

Level 4 spellcasting slots (4 lv.1, 3 lv.2)
Shield 4/ long rest blur 3/long rest (with space for rituals for utility I guess) and some racial spells (faerie fire from drow is cool)

Very good at concentrating (3+2+4 =+9)

Pretty mobile

Bad damage output (unless you have a buddy near you 24/7)

It's hard to hit, and will likely take few damage in the long run, but it's saves are terrible and can lock down only one enemy at a time if he gets the chance to hit it. The fact that it doesn't do a lot of damage and that is not easy to hit is probably gonna drive the enemies towards someone else, so bad aggro. It is very survivable, but it's not a tank unless you are fighting in a 15feet corridor.

A paladin of equal level without much effort has marginally more HP(and a 50HP pool to cure whoever he wants) marginally more AC, more spells (5th level caster) and more damage. Spells include sanctuary and compelled duel, which manipulate aggro in his favor. Hos saves are beautiful, and if he really feels like it he can get PAM+sentinel and still get another ASI or for more HP (tough) or for even better saves (resilient) (variant human, no elf restriction).

Not to mention all of the aura goodies that he's getting (both for him and the party)

I'm not saying that you did not see a rogue tank in action, I'm saying that a tank rgue is a poor tank among the other options. But I like the build, I'd use it for skirmishing rather than tanking tho.

Eldritch knights are great tanks too.

The higher the levels go, the better he becomes, in every respect.
He has more potential healing via Healing Elixir than you give him credit for.
Shield/blur become less and less needed as you level.
Doesn't do a lot of damage? SCAG cantrips + sneak attack at-will and sneak attack on OA is minor damage? A paladin certainly doesn't exceed it over the course of the day, despite what you say.
You say he can only lock down one enemy at a time? And how many tanks can lock down multiple enemies at once in 5e? This one actually can. He can lock down two enemies, one with Booming Blade and a second with Sentinel.

You just haven't seen it. It works. And it is anything but "poor" on the tanking front.

But you're right. It's also a skirmisher, if there's another tank around.

[Corran]

The idea is that it creates a catch22.
If they attack you they'll probably miss. If they don't, they're going to take a beating.
Extreme AC and Sentinel combined with a powerful single strike (which uses no resources) is a ridiculously good tanking recipe.
Uncanny Dodge and Evasion are just gravy on top of that recipe.
Ok, I dig this idea, and I have git it a try on my own in the past (though I haven't got to play it yet).
From what I had figured back then, a fighter (battlemaster) dip would achieve it better, looking at combining a good base AC (20 if dex based, eventually; 21 if str based -ie heavy armor- once you got access to plate), rather than going with a bladesinger approach. Of course this was just my opinion, and I'll admit that I hadn;t looked that much on a bladesinger dip, mainly because I prefered to spend feats/ASIs on things like shield master and resilient wisdom, rather than on improving intelligence. But it's not like I can say for sure that a bladesinger approach would not be good, or perhaps even better. Will look into it at some point (ie the bladesinger route for the idea you presented) in more detail, to get a better grasp (at least in theory) of how well it would work.

One thing you might want to keep in mind though, is that such builds (the catch22 idea as you put it), would probably work a lot better if you are having them fight next to other melee allies (and possibly even having the familiar fly right above your own square), so that you can add sneak attack damage to OA's (the familiar prevents smart enemies from avoiding your sneak attack damage on OAs, by maneuvring first out of the reach of your melee allies, and then out of your reach -hence why the familiar must stay in the square right above yours). Also, the familiar, is the only way I can think of, that can grant you advantage on your sentinel reaction attack, and being it logical to assume that it would require for a very specific initiative order dor that to happen, you would need the familiar to take the ready action -I assume this is RAW, not sure though- for that to happen. That because due to extra attack (or gaining advantage in other ways, such as via shoving prone, during your turn), means that advantage via the familiar would be much more profitable with your sentinel reaction attacks rather than with your main action (in dpr terms).

Oops, I rambled....:smallsmile:

[Shining Wrath]

I'm going to throw out the idea of a Tank Monk, because nothing protects the squishy people like stunning the other side's Striker. As always, there's things you just can't stun (hello dragons!), and stunning burns ki - but a Monk gets respectable AC, proficiency in all saves (eventually), does enough damage to draw fire, and has the mobility to always get in between the squishy people and the bad guys, or to get to the other side's squishy people and force the enemy to fall back into defensive positions.

Best in all situations? Nope. Absolute nightmare for any glass cannon enemy with high DPR but low Con save? Yep.

[Citan]

In your opinion, what class makes the best tank?

At the moment I'm thinking fighter (battlemaster) with protection style & the sentinel feat. But I can definitely see arguements for other classes.
A tank is in my opinion someone that is geared towards damage prevention on other people, by reducing enemy's efficiency or inciting them to attack him instead of others (and having enough resilience to survive being a practice target).

As a pure class, I'd rate like this...

FIRST TIER
From level 1 to 20, has a nice balance of abilities to control the way enemies act or mitigate damage for allies, and has the resilience to go with it.

1. Ancients Paladin: 30 feet permanent auras (+CHA to saves, resistance to Magic), concentration buffs (including Circle of Power!), control spells (Paladin spells such as Command/Compelled Duel + Ensnaring Strike, Moonbeam), Protection fighting style, 20 AC, regen make him an extremely good tank in all aspects.
Crown Paladin would come not far behind, thanks to Channel Divinity and ability to take damage in place of someone else.

SECOND TIER
Classes that have one main flaw: being really reliable late, being very limited in some aspect, or being "just good enough" overall.

2a. Life Cleric: thanks to Warding Bond and Domains "auto-heal when healing others" you can give much protection to someone else while healing yourself automatically. And you have the most buffs you can apply to self or others to help taking hits. You also get a handful of good spells such as Command or Guardian of Faith. Another nice guardian would be Light domain (Warding Flare) or Nature domain (resistance to elemental damage).
Put there first because it's a very balanced build from start to finish.

2b. Totem Barbarian: you have absolutely no way to actually control people, but you are generally a powerful threat enough to make people want to try and kill you, at least until they realize how sturdy you are. Best "tank value" against melee, because you are extremely resilient, can usually reliably push people prone, and make strong enough attacks to dent them. Even more true if you take some feats, which you should be able to do so.
Put there as a second because, as far as "meat shield goes", nobody can beat a Barbarian's resilience (except Ancients Paladin and Monks, at higher level).
So very focused class, but still very effective against all melee creatures that do not have a tactical mind (which should be most).

2c. Eldricht Knight: focusing on buffs (Shield, Blur, Haste) until you are high-level, at which you can apply very effective spells (Slow, Fear), and the ability to stack many feats makes an EK close to a Bear Barbarian against melee enemies defensive-wise, and potentially better offensive-wise, simply because it's easier for him to grab the most important feats (Sentinel, Polearm Master) to lock-in the enemies: so while, as Barbarian, he cannot impose a course of action to enemies, he can force them to stay put until they are dead.

2d. Arcane Trickster Rogue: in addition to access to same buffs as above, can much more easily (and earlier) enable AOE control, also has some of the best defensive features of the game (Cunning Action, Uncanny Dodge, Evasion) and ends with native Wisdom saving throw. Could be as good or better as any other second tier option depending on campaign and player's wits.

2e. Long Death Monk: AOE Fear as an action is just, just, the best free feature ever! Big regret is that it's not compatible with Martial Arts (no bonus action attack) nor Flurry of Blows IIRC so it's essentially a turn spent solely on that, but it's really good. It's also the most resilient class of all barring Ancients Paladin (overall) and potentially Bear Barbarian or Abjurer Wizard, depending on the campaign.
Put there as the third though because a) its best defensive features come late, before that you are more frail than others b) there is a strong competition for resource management from start to finish.
Honestly, the fact that you cannot contribute to damage when using your main ability could be arguably a reason enough to drop one tier below. YMMV.
A case could be made for Open Hand Monk as an alternative because of their free control on Flurry, but it's really much more limited.

THIRD TIER
Classes that fall short in one or several aspects, or become really good as tank so late most people will never see it.

3a. Swashbuckler Rogue: level 9 features makes him possibly the best at locking a single enemy. Plus it's still a Rogue. However, he has much lesser versatility and overall resilience compared to Arcane Trickster. In particular, he has nothing else than Panache as a way to control how enemies act.

3b. Abjurer Wizard: IF you manage to survive the first three quarters of your life (in which "tanking" would require either a very particular build, or spending all your spells solely on this), then you become great: Abjurer Ward + advantage and resistance against spells mean your main threat becomes physical attacks. So you can use more freely all the good battlefield/mind control spells you can cast. Still, it's only when you reach level 18 that you really become truly resilient.

3c. Bladesinger Wizard: much better than an Abjurer defense-wise until level 14, lesser after: getting INT bonus to AC and concentration makes your life much easier. Level 10 feature though (use slots to absorb damage) is probably always a bad use of a slot unless it's really "this or die".

3d. Moon Druid: one of the most schizophrenic classes. XD
Both in "how well you can tank" (good at specific levels, bad others, until the end of career when you become the ultimate tank, trumping everyone except Paladin)... And in "am I a beast or a spellcaster" (most of your career, you cast a concentration spell then Wild Shape for the remaining).
Provided you reach level 18th tough, the spell/WS duality disappears. And if/when you reach level 20, you simply trump everyone else except Paladin (because of permanent auras) and Wizards (because Simulacrum/Wish/etc): Barbarians/Fighters/Rogues (infinite Wild Shape = incredible replesnishable source of THP) and Clerics (Conjuration spells, battlefield control spells to provide protection for your allies) fall short.

3.e Bards: both PHB Colleges have their goodies (Cutting Words on one side, proficiencies on the other). I'll go on a stretch and say that counter-intuitively Lore Bard is the best of both, but it will require some investment (Mage Secrets for Mage Armor and Shield). Also all his "tanking" is based on spells except for Cutting Words, so his only forte is the ability to cherry pick.

As for best "tank" in a multiclass situation... I'll look into past posts when I have some time again (runned out for now ^^). But there are, for theorical level 20 builds, probably a few dozen equally viable combinations. :)

[DivisibleByZero]

Ok, I dig this idea, and I have git it a try on my own in the past (though I haven't got to play it yet).
From what I had figured back then, a fighter (battlemaster) dip would achieve it better, looking at combining a good base AC (20 if dex based, eventually; 21 if str based -ie heavy armor- once you got access to plate), rather than going with a bladesinger approach.

Fighter does it well.
But Fighter lacks the "powerful single strike" portion which makes the Rogue so much better at forcing the catch22 IMO. The only way for him to get it is to force a Str build and take GWM and take a -5 to hit with that powerful single strike.
So the Rogue is better at forcing the choice, which in turn means he's better at doing what a tank is supposed to do.... force people to attack him instead of others.
Attacking someone else is a bigger threat/gamble when you're standing next to a Rogue with Sentinel than it is with any other class, because he can literally punish you severely all day long without spending any resources.
Throw excessive AC on top of that, and voila, excellent tank.

Edit, I see now you're talking about a Fighter dip.
BM is good indeed, and an argument could be made for Swashbuckler in this case as well. Lose a little versatility and a little burst AC, and in exchange you get better sticking and don't need allies on hand.

[Lombra]

The higher the levels go, the better he becomes, in every respect.
He has more potential healing via Healing Elixir than you give him credit for.
Shield/blur become less and less needed as you level.
Doesn't do a lot of damage? SCAG cantrips + sneak attack at-will and sneak attack on OA is minor damage? A paladin certainly doesn't exceed it over the course of the day, despite what you say.
And how many other tanks can lock down multiple enemies at once?

You just haven't seen it. It works. And it is anything but "poor" on the tanking front.

But you're right. It's also a skirmisher, if there's another tank around.

How are you getting SA if you are alone versus what you are tanking? How are you getting reliable advantage? At 13th rogue level you get the thing with mage hand, at character level 16.

The PAM sentinel guy is able to make 3 attacks per round with an as reliable reaction. Who's the worst at damage again? Even 2 BB/round can't exceed the damage of 4 attacks.

The PAM sentinel guy is locking down a guy with sentinel, and a guy with compelled duel, or all the guys with sanctuary on the VIP.

What is healing helixir anyways? (Can't find it in SCAG or PHB)

On the level-up thing: paladins simply get very, very good as they level up, what is a rogue getting to tank better past level 7? Slippery mind at 15? Spell thief at 17 (Character level 20)? More slots to use on shield and blur? (Which is pretty good, but not much)

One cool part of your build is that you still get 5 ASIs despite multiclassing for 3 levels.

Again, I'm seeing a very slippery character in your build, but not a tank. To be able to survive is not sufficient to classify as a tank IMO. Wether it tanked or not in a game you played doesn't matter. In the game that I'm playing the tanks are a monk and a cleric, so personal experience is not very useful when discussing about the ideal best.

Edit: I can see the: "you really have to make me use my reaction on uncanny dodge or you are risking a lot from my OA (if somehow he can get sneak attack), and don't get close to someone else because if you do so I'm gonna stab you and it's gonna hurt" and it's a good tactic, but far from the best.

[MaxWilson]

Doesn't do a lot of damage? SCAG cantrips + sneak attack at-will and sneak attack on OA is minor damage?

Highly situational sneak attack. It's not like you're a Swashbuckler: you rely on having advantage and/or an adjacent ally in order to get your sneak attack damage. Since your job is to tank, you don't want other guys next to you (or they will get attacked in lieu of you). So yes, mediocre damage. On par with a paladorc using Booming Blade; far worse than a Battlemaster fighter with GWM.

You're be better off multiclassing Swashbuckler and Bladesinger at around a 3:1 ratio.

[Citan]

Rogues are very high on the list, probably a contender for the top spot. Sneak Attack makes them a credible threat with regard to OA's, Uncanny Dodge stops them dying from "drawing aggro" and Evasion means the party artillery can happily blast away with them right there in the midst of the target area. A decent Con more than makes up for their lowish HD and Hill Dwarves and Tough exist if you're that concerned about HP. Arcane Tricksters have a slew of defensive options, including Shield, Haste and Mirror Image. Out of the box, Rogues make great tanks.


What are you buying then? The Paladin's non-existent alternative? The Fighter's non-existent alternative?
The difference between a Rogue and either of them is 1hp/level. One. And he has a bunch of tools to survive.
A raging Barbarian has an alternative, sure, but they're usually much easier to hit in the first place so they need it more. But we're discussing what's possible, and a tanking Rogue is just that. Possible. I've seen it myself, used to great effect.
Rogues are a TON more survivable than people generally seem to think; that viewpoint being largely based on non-applicable experiences from previous editions.
Guys.
Seriously.
Stop with that.

Rogues are NOT tanks, except Arcane Tricksters that would be built to do so in spell selection.
Rogues are VERY SELF-SUFFICIENT AT SURVIVING. That's a big difference.
Uncany Dodge is not the "hey I'm not even really hurt" ability you sell. It halves damage but a) uses your reaction b) works against ONLY ONE attack.
Against several attacks a turn, you will fall quickly. And since a tank's job is to ensure his pals are not attacked, then because you have very few spell options to force creatures to do as you wish, you want them to at least attack you. So you will sustain several attack per turn.
Defensive Duelist feat does not help that much, because has the same problems than Uncanny Dodge.
And if you want to use Sentinel benefit, then you used your reaction, so you are defenseless.
Arcane Trickster is much better in that regard thanks to Shield (lasts a round), Mirror Image (great on a DEX character) and Blur (and -much later- Greater Invisibility). But these are still costly, limited resources.

Even in the best, most defensive build you could make as a pure Rogue, you are still extremely far behind Barbarians, Paladins or Monks as far as overall resilience is concerned, and even more so as far as tanking is concerned.

In the end, a Rogue is still someone that actively tries to limit the threat that is directed to him to one enemy, two at the most.

By the way...

Rogues are very high on the list, probably a contender for the top spot. Sneak Attack makes them a credible threat with regard to OA's, Uncanny Dodge stops them dying from "drawing aggro" and Evasion means the party artillery can happily blast away with them right there in the midst of the target area. A decent Con more than makes up for their lowish HD and Hill Dwarves and Tough exist if you're that concerned about HP. Arcane Tricksters have a slew of defensive options, including Shield, Haste and Mirror Image. Out of the box, Rogues make great tanks.


Elf
Str 9, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 8
or Str 8, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 16, Wis 12, Cha 8 if you wanted to add/subtract one from your AC/WisSave
Fighter 1+ / Bladesinger Wizard 2+ / Arcane Trickster 7+ with Sentinel feat
Best tank in the game.

Fighter 1+ for Protection style and Second Wind
Bladesinger Wizard 2+ for Spellcasting (Healing Elixir), minor Arcane Recovery, Minor Ritual Casting, and Bladesong
Arcane Trickster 7+ for Cunning Action, Spellcasting, Uncanny Dodge, Evasion

You could finish Rogue from there of you wanted to, leaving f1/w2/r17
Or you could add a few more Fighter levels for another ASI and Battle Master.
Or you could add a few more levels of Fighter for more of an even split and go EK, ending f7/w2/r11.
The options really open up. But elven f1/w2/r7 is the base for the best tank in the game.



That's a misrepresentation. The difference in AC between Dex light armor and heavy armor is literally one point. But if you have Bladesong, you have the best potential AC in the game.
I love how you dare say that "Rogue is the best tank in the game" and just after that post a heavy-multiclass build (which, by the way, still falls very short of pure-classes such as Monk or Paladin sadly when you consider all aspects, as others tried to explain).


I truly think it depends on what you're going up against to determine the best tank. Here are my choices for best tank based on particular situations.

1. My first choice is a Totem (Bear) Barbarian. I would suggest medium armor, a shield, Sentinel, and Resilient Wisdom. I would personally multiclass with Rogue after 5-6 levels of Barbarian, but the class works just as well as a tank being a pure Barbarian. The weakness of this class though, is Intelligence and Charisma saves (and Wisdom saves until you get Resilient Wisdom). You're dependent on allies to help you deal with Int/Cha saves.

2. My second choice would be an OotA Paladin. This archetype is amazing at standing up against casters, as well as defending itself against them. They will have a pretty solid bonus to saves (they can consider Resilient Con) with their save aura and Bless. They will eventually have a pair of don't die abilities (Death Ward at level 13 and an Oath specific don't die mechanic at 15), and their level 20 grants them HP regen. Weaknesses I see with the class in regards to tanking include damage reduction that isn't spell based. OotA Paladins are amazing when dealing with spell casters, but when dealing with anything else dealing massive amount of damage (certain Dragon breaths), Paladins in general won't stand up for long.

3. My third choice is an OoD Paladin. Similar to OotA, these Paladins are great when put up against a pretty specific group of creatures. Anything that charms you, or is an: Aberration, Celestial, Elemental, Fey, Fiend, or Undead, will have a tough time against your OoD Paladin. Essentially, any time you're dealing with something not of the prime material plane, an OoD Paladin will be an ideal tank. These Paladins have a similar weakness to massive amounts of burst though, as they don't have any real damage reduction available to them.

If you know what the campaign is going to focus on story wise, you could choose a "tank" that does well in that particular scenario. If the big bad is going to potentially be a Lich, both OotA and OoD will probably do well. If the big bad is going to be a Tarrasque, your Barbarian might be a decent choice.

This is all theory craft though. I'm sure there are others who have actually played the role of tank beyond the first 12 levels of the game who can provide more insight.
Totally right, "who is the best tank" depends heavily on party composition and more importantly on campaign. 100% approved. ^^

As for best multiclass build (I ****ing should have gone already, I'm really too weak XD) I will post a detail after, but I'm pretty sure it would be...
- either a heavy armor + shield Ancients Paladin based (around 8 levels, rest in multiclass)
- or a DEX-based with Bladesinger, Rogue, Battlemaster and Sorcerer mixed.
- or a Monk based class with just dips in Rogue, Cleric or Druid.
Depending on campaign and starting level.

[Mikal]

Using UA?

Ancestral Guardian Barbarian, maybe with Stone Sorcerer.

You get an ability that lets you mark an opponent, forcing them to deal with you as they get half damage against everything else.
You get an ability to lower damage from the marked opponent even further.

I don't think any other subclass has that ability.

Add Stone Sorcerer if you have the stats for additional defensive utility.

[DivisibleByZero]

To the people complaining about having an ally in melee with you....
How many games have you played where there was only one melee combatant, and that one was the tank?
I've been playing since around 1989 or so, and I have never seen it. Not once.
Not. One. Time.
Getting sneak attack damage is not a problem.
And if some crazy turn of events occurs, and this becomes true wherein you're the only melee combatant, then just roll a different tank. Or don't play a different tank, and just play this one as a skirmisher who punishes anyone that goes after the casters with your extreme mobility.

[mgshamster]

Bard with bagpipes. Enemies will focus on him just to get him to shut up.

[Lombra]

To the people complaining about having an ally in melee with you....
How many games have you played where there was only one melee combatant, and that one was the tank?
I've been playing since around 1989 or so, and I have never seen it. Not once.
Not. One. Time.
Getting sneak attack damage is not a problem.

I have. Always. One tank (which has never been built to tank, he just stands there because he happens to have high AC/HP), one or more skirmishers, and casters in the back. Well then if you assumed that your build relies on being with someone else in the front line there's nothing wrong, a paladin needs half the men you are needing tho. By the way I would love to combine your build with a paladin companion, it sounds like a lot of damage and control. Your build is a good tank. It's not the best as you claim, because an effortlessly built paladin can be better in almost any situation/party composition.

[King539]

Single classed? Paladin?

Multiclassed? Paladin/sorcerer.

[N810]

I would say Barbarian but rage is ridiculously easy to shut down. Charm, fear, or pretty much any effect that requires a Wisdom save will end their rage. Especially with the Barb's crappy Wis saves.

Paladin and Fighter are both much better tanks.

and that's why Berserker is a better tank than Bear.

[Yagyujubei]

there are no true tanks in 5E really unless your DM is willing to allow UA imho

[Lombra]

there are no true tanks in 5E really unless your DM is willing to allow UA imho

I can agree that there isn't a dedicated tank class but saying that no class can be a true tank is not true in my opinion (see my paladin posts above)

[mephnick]

Man, poor Crown Paladin. Completely ignored even in favour of worse Paladins

[MaxWilson]

To the people complaining about having an ally in melee with you....
How many games have you played where there was only one melee combatant, and that one was the tank?
I've been playing since around 1989 or so, and I have never seen it. Not once.

1989 isn't relevant. 5E has only been out since 2014. AD&D works differently than 5E.

In 5E, I think the majority of the parties I've seen in play have had only on melee specialist/tank. Perhaps 40-45% of the parties I've seen have two melee specialists.

If you consider a fairly iconic 5E loadout of paladin/bard/wizard/rogue, only the paladin is a natural tank. In a larger party of course things are different--an eight-man party will almost certainly have multiple tanks. Even there though, your Arcane Trickster relies on having another melee specialist next to him, which means he can't tank independently to cover another threat vector. At best it's an off-tank, supplemental to the primary tank.

[Findulidas]

Man, poor Crown Paladin. Completely ignored even in favour of worse Paladins

To be fair there are many decent tanks.

[DivisibleByZero]

1989 isn't relevant. 5E has only been out since 2014. AD&D works differently than 5E.

In 5E, I think the majority of the parties I've seen in play have had only on melee specialist/tank. Perhaps 40-45% of the parties I've seen have two melee specialists.

If you consider a fairly iconic 5E loadout of paladin/bard/wizard/rogue, only the paladin is a natural tank. In a larger party of course things are different--an eight-man party will almost certainly have multiple tanks. Even there though, your Arcane Trickster relies on having another melee specialist next to him, which means he can't tank independently to cover another threat vector. At best it's an off-tank, supplemental to the primary tank.

I didn't say that older iterations of the game were relevant. I only said that in almost 30 years of playing, the last five or so having been 5e, I have never once ever been in a game that had one tank and 3-4-5 ranged characters who refused to enter melee.
Not. One. Time.

That Paladin/Bard/Wizard/Rogue party you mentioned? You've got a Paladin and a Rogue and a Bard. Two (potentially three) melee combatants. The Rogue is just as good with a finesse weapon as he is with a bow.
And as I mentioned, even if you find yourself in that situation where there is nothing else but ranged characters with you, your extreme mobility (30 +10 from Bladesong = 40 move minimum) with Dash and Disengage as a bonus action, means that you can get to and punish anyone that charges your back line. Guess what? Now you have an ally there and force the catch22.

One enemy held up with Booming Blade, a second held with Sentinel.
Ideally, you want a set-up like (or at least similar to) you and a MeleeAlly standing in front of two enemies.
EnemyA potentially either misses you or gets your Sentinel reaction for 1d8+Xd6+Dex (basically, attack me or I have a fireball's worth of piercing damage just for you), plus the MeleeAlly beating on him.
EnemyB gets your Booming Blade for Xd8+Xd6+Dex, +Xd8 if he tries to get around you, plus another BB at that point if you have WarCaster, and if you do, he's not going ANYWHERE!
You can hate on the idea all you want to in principle. Your hate doesn't make it any less effective.

[ruy343]

Consistently, in games I run, my players choose rogue/fighters for tanks. They'll usually grab the medium armor master feat, allowing them to get their AC to 20 right off the bat (50 gp armor can get you to 14+3(dex)+2(shield)+1(defense fighting style). Usually, they stop at 19 AC and get a different fighting style, but still, it's extremely effective. dipping into eldritch knight for shield makes them really, really tough to kill.

[Shining Wrath]

I didn't say that older iterations of the game were relevant. I only said that in almost 30 years of playing, the last five or so having been 5e, I have never once ever been in a game that had one tank and 3-4-5 ranged characters who refused to enter melee.
Not. One. Time.

That Paladin/Bard/Wizard/Rogue party you mentioned? You've got a Paladin and a Rogue and a Bard. Two (potentially three) melee combatants. The Rogue is just as good with a finesse weapon as he is with a bow.
And as I mentioned, even if you find yourself in that situation where there is nothing else but ranged characters with you, your extreme mobility (30 +10 from Bladesong = 40 move minimum) with Dash and Disengage as a bonus action, means that you can get to and punish anyone that charges your back line. Guess what? Now you have an ally there and force the catch22.

One enemy held up with Booming Blade, a second held with Sentinel.

You can hate on the idea all you want to in principle. Your hate doesn't make it any less effective.

Type of bard was not specified. You are having a Lore Bard tank? Mmmmmmkay.
One word: hydras. Explain to me what a Rogue does that survives 5 attacks a round. It's an iconic monster.
Two words: Fire Giants. Two attacks per turn with a really big great sword. You get one Uncanny Dodge, the second one hits you for ~25 points of damage, and you've got no reaction left as big and ugly strolls right past you toward the squishy folks.
What about the mere CR 2 Gibbering Mouther? OK, the saving throws are only DC 10, but a rogue trying to tank one of those is making two bad saving throws (STR and WIS) per round. Sure, you can run away, but that's pretty much the definition of "I'm not a tank".
CR 6: Chimera. Once again, iconic. 3 attacks a round, 10 or 11 points damage per hit. Uncanny Dodge saves you once, and now you're losing HP. A level 6 rogue has 8 + 25 + (6*CON=18) = 51 hit points. It'll probably kill you in 4 or 5 rounds; admittedly, most fights don't last that long, but you also don't want your tank losing ~50% of their HP in moderately difficult battles.

[DivisibleByZero]

Type of bard was not specified. You are having a Lore Bard tank? Mmmmmmkay.
One word: hydras. Explain to me what a Rogue does that survives 5 attacks a round. It's an iconic monster.
Two words: Fire Giants. Two attacks per turn with a really big great sword. You get one Uncanny Dodge, the second one hits you for ~25 points of damage, and you've got no reaction left as big and ugly strolls right past you toward the squishy folks.
What about the mere CR 2 Gibbering Mouther? OK, the saving throws are only DC 10, but a rogue trying to tank one of those is making two bad saving throws (STR and WIS) per round. Sure, you can run away, but that's pretty much the definition of "I'm not a tank".
CR 6: Chimera. Once again, iconic. 3 attacks a round, 10 or 11 points damage per hit. Uncanny Dodge saves you once, and now you're losing HP. A level 6 rogue has 8 + 25 + (6*CON=18) = 51 hit points. It'll probably kill you in 4 or 5 rounds; admittedly, most fights don't last that long, but you also don't want your tank losing ~50% of their HP in moderately difficult battles.

You want me to give examples of how a Fighter tank can be overcome? It's easy.
What about a Barbarian? It's easy.
What about a Paladin? It's easy.

Cherry picking examples where you can potentially get beat doesn't weaken my argument one bit, nor anyone else's either. You use different tactics and resources, like shield instead of UC.
And what are the Fighters and everyone else going to do in those situations anyway? Rely on AC, just like the Rogue. Your argument fails.

[EdenIndustries]

Using UA?

Ancestral Guardian Barbarian, maybe with Stone Sorcerer.

You get an ability that lets you mark an opponent, forcing them to deal with you as they get half damage against everything else.
You get an ability to lower damage from the marked opponent even further.

I don't think any other subclass has that ability.

Add Stone Sorcerer if you have the stats for additional defensive utility.

What about Ancestral Guardian Barbarian 14/Paladin 6 (instead of Stone Sorcerer)? 4d8 damage prevented as a reaction, reflected back on the attacker, and a 10 foot aura providing +Cha to saves. Pretty cool!

[Hairfish]

You want me to give examples of how a Fighter tank can be overcome? It's easy.
What about a Barbarian? It's easy.
What about a Paladin? It's easy.

Cherry picking examples where you can potentially get beat doesn't weaken my argument one bit, nor anyone else's either. You use different tactics and resources, like shield instead of UC.
And what are the Fighters and everyone else going to do in those situations anyway? Rely on AC, just like the Rogue. Your argument fails.

Only if you assume fighters and rogues would have the same AC and access to abjuration spells. They generally wouldn't, unless you're creating your own cherry-picked examples.

[MaxWilson]

Type of bard was not specified. You are having a Lore Bard tank? Mmmmmmkay.
One word: hydras. Explain to me what a Rogue does that survives 5 attacks a round. It's an iconic monster.
Two words: Fire Giants. Two attacks per turn with a really big great sword. You get one Uncanny Dodge, the second one hits you for ~25 points of damage, and you've got no reaction left as big and ugly strolls right past you toward the squishy folks.
What about the mere CR 2 Gibbering Mouther? OK, the saving throws are only DC 10, but a rogue trying to tank one of those is making two bad saving throws (STR and WIS) per round. Sure, you can run away, but that's pretty much the definition of "I'm not a tank".
CR 6: Chimera. Once again, iconic. 3 attacks a round, 10 or 11 points damage per hit. Uncanny Dodge saves you once, and now you're losing HP. A level 6 rogue has 8 + 25 + (6*CON=18) = 51 hit points. It'll probably kill you in 4 or 5 rounds; admittedly, most fights don't last that long, but you also don't want your tank losing ~50% of their HP in moderately difficult battles.

I think you're overstating the disadvantages of Uncanny Dodge a bit. The AC 19ish Roguesinger in question will be hit by both Fire Giant sword attacks only 42% of the time, whereas 45% of the time he'll be hit by only one, and about 12% of the time he'll be hit by neither. (Plus, he could active a Blur spell--Arcane Tricksters have easy access to Blur.) So he's still getting Uncanny Dodge on about 2/3 of enemy attacks, which reduces the overall damage he suffers by about 1/3.

I haven't done the math in detail on the Chimera but I think it's roughly similar: the Chimera only hits with all three attacks 9% of the time.

This is sort of the inverse of the Ranger's Multi-attack Defense: just like Multi-Attack Defense looks better than it is until you do the math, Uncanny Dodge looks worse than it really is.

Of course, vs. hordes and swarms (e.g. 12 gnolls with longbows), all bets are off. That's when you need either Shield or Dodge or Power Word: Run Away.

[JellyPooga]

Type of bard was not specified. You are having a Lore Bard tank? Mmmmmmkay.
One word: hydras. Explain to me what a Rogue does that survives 5 attacks a round. It's an iconic monster.
Two words: Fire Giants. Two attacks per turn with a really big great sword. You get one Uncanny Dodge, the second one hits you for ~25 points of damage, and you've got no reaction left as big and ugly strolls right past you toward the squishy folks.
What about the mere CR 2 Gibbering Mouther? OK, the saving throws are only DC 10, but a rogue trying to tank one of those is making two bad saving throws (STR and WIS) per round. Sure, you can run away, but that's pretty much the definition of "I'm not a tank".
CR 6: Chimera. Once again, iconic. 3 attacks a round, 10 or 11 points damage per hit. Uncanny Dodge saves you once, and now you're losing HP. A level 6 rogue has 8 + 25 + (6*CON=18) = 51 hit points. It'll probably kill you in 4 or 5 rounds; admittedly, most fights don't last that long, but you also don't want your tank losing ~50% of their HP in moderately difficult battles.

How does a Fighter or Paladin survive any better than a Rogue?

AC for a dedicated tank-Rogue is going to be roughly equitable (give or take a point or two) to that of a Fighter or Paladin (and significantly better than a Barbarian using Reckless Attack), making hit ratios about the same.

A Hydra is CR:8. A Fire Giant is CR:9. Assuming similar Race, Con, etc. The Fighter or Paladin has an average of about 11 extra HP over the Rogue, for a roughly appropriate encounter of that level. A Hydra hitting the Rogue only deals 5 damage on his first hit, as opposed to 10. Second round of combat, he only deals 5 damage on that first hit again. Already, the Rogue has more effective HP. Round 1 against the Fire Giant, his first hit deals only 14 damage as opposed to 28. The Rogue just outpaced the Fighter. If the second or subsequent attacks would "down" the Rogue, they'd also "down" the Fighter or Paladin. The longer the fight lasts, the more efficient the Rogues HP are working. That's what Uncanny Dodge does; regardless of the number of attacks, the stronger the enemy, the bigger the DPR, the better a tank the Rogue becomes.

It's irrelevant if Uncanny Dodge is using the Rogues reaction, because assuming the foe attacks him first to get past him he's eaten that attack which is intrinsically protecting his allies from eating that same attack. If that attack hits, the Rogue expends less resources (HP) than the equivalent Fighter.

That's assuming that first attack hits. If it doesn't (which for a good tank, regardless of class, is at least the desired goal, if not likely), then that foe can either choose to attack the Rogue again, supporting his role as tank, or eat the Rogues OA, which has a high threat level due to Sneak Attack.

To really break it down and grab hold of one of your given examples (assuming Con 10, Human);

Fighter level 9; HP: 64
Rogue level 9; HP: 53

Round 1
Fire Giant Attack 1:
- vs. Fighter: HP 64-28= 32
- vs. Rogue: HP 53-14= 39

Fire Giant Attack 2:
- vs. Fighter: HP 32-28= 4
- vs. Rogue: HP 39-28= 11

In round 2, the Rogue needs a mere 4 points of healing to weather one more attack and continue in his role as "dude in the way", opposed to "dude bleeding on the ground". The Fighter needs a whopping 18.

With a Con of 18 and an extra HP/level for Hill Dwarf (arguably one of the best tank races), they both have an additional 45 HP; enough for the Rogue to stay standing into round 3 taking the full brunt of the Giants attacks. Not so the Fighter.

Creatures with more than two attacks tend to deal lower damage per attack; the Hydra, for example, deals less with his second and third attacks combined than the Fire Giant does with his single second attack. This makes the multiattack argument against Uncanny Dodge entirely false. The Rogue simply has more relative HP than Fighter when it comes to weathering incoming damage and they can do so without limit over the course of an adventuring day (unlike the Paladins limited pool of Lay on Hands healing, ignoring the action opportunity cost of that ability).

Tl;dr - Rogues need less healing than the other "best tank" contenders and can stay standing in a given fight longer. Staying standing and being a threat is pretty much the most basic and essential tank ability and Rogues do that best.

[Citan]

Man, poor Crown Paladin. Completely ignored even in favour of worse Paladins
Not totally true. I did quote them. ;)
I disagree on the fact that they would be the best tanks though. Don't remember all the spells they get apart from Warding Bond -indeed no flaw, a great one- and Spirit Guardians -great offensive, but could actually dissuade enemies to try and get close ^^-...
But I remember they get a powerful crowd control Channel divinity, which I love, but their level 7 ability is less interesting imo than Ancients, simply because it's a one-instance damage swap costing your reaction.
Good thing is that its effect is "sure", but I think overall giving close (then less close) allies a resistance is overall better.
Of course though, as with everything, it depends much on your party: for example, if you are usually on the front line with the Bear barbarian, Ancient's aura would basically amount to a self-buff. OTOH, Crown Paladin would be equally inefficient: usually the Barb is the one with most HP so he can usually bear with suffering the damage in the first place.


You want me to give examples of how a Fighter tank can be overcome? It's easy.
What about a Barbarian? It's easy.
What about a Paladin? It's easy.

Cherry picking examples where you can potentially get beat doesn't weaken my argument one bit, nor anyone else's either. You use different tactics and resources, like shield instead of UC.
And what are the Fighters and everyone else going to do in those situations anyway? Rely on AC, just like the Rogue. Your argument fails.
Well, go for it, don't hesitate, we'd very much like to be enlightened.
Because in all, you are wrong and you just know it.
- Self-healing: Rogue has basically nothing, although Thief can decently heal self and others with Healer feat (basically Fighter's Second Wind). Barb has at least the "avoid being down" with progressive DC on short rest. Fighter has Second Wind (Champion has regeneration). Paladin has self-sufficient food, healing spells, Lay on Hands. Monk has nothing except Open Hand.
- Saves: Rogue is great in Dex saves (Evasion), and gets Wisdom also, so he's plain better than Fighter ("only" Indomitable) and Barbarian (advantage on DEX saves, but still suffers half-damage sometimes). Plain inferior to Paladin (+CHA to all saves in addition to proficiencies and potential Bless) and extremely inferior to Monk (proficiency in all saves + 1ki reroll).
- AC: Rogue has to invest into a feat, consume spells or cope with decent-ish AC until level 8 at least. Barbarian is the worse when using Reckless Attack, otherwise decent. Monk is on par with Rogue, in starting AC and in the fact he can greatly improve defense by consuming resources. But those are short-rest. Paladin has 20 starting AC, + potential Shield of Faith. Only Arcane Trickster beats them, while his slots last at least so for only the biggest fight often.
- Resistances: Bear Barbarian trumps everyone in the first half. Ancients Paladin comes strong later, but still inferior to Barb unless very magic-heavy campaign. Rogue is decent from level 5 onwards, or great when facing a single enemy. Monk trumps everyone, but only at level 18, which is a -tad- late. XD

How does a Fighter or Paladin survive any better than a Rogue?

AC for a dedicated tank-Rogue is going to be roughly equitable (give or take a point or two) to that of a Fighter or Paladin (and significantly better than a Barbarian using Reckless Attack), making hit ratios about the same.

A Hydra is CR:8. A Fire Giant is CR:9. Assuming similar Race, Con, etc. The Fighter or Paladin has an average of about 11 extra HP over the Rogue, for a roughly appropriate encounter of that level. A Hydra hitting the Rogue only deals 5 damage on his first hit, as opposed to 10. Second round of combat, he only deals 5 damage on that first hit again. Already, the Rogue has more effective HP. Round 1 against the Fire Giant, his first hit deals only 14 damage as opposed to 28. The Rogue just outpaced the Fighter. If the second or subsequent attacks would "down" the Rogue, they'd also "down" the Fighter or Paladin. The longer the fight lasts, the more efficient the Rogues HP are working. That's what Uncanny Dodge does; regardless of the number of attacks, the stronger the enemy, the bigger the DPR, the better a tank the Rogue becomes.

It's irrelevant if Uncanny Dodge is using the Rogues reaction, because assuming the foe attacks him first to get past him he's eaten that attack which is intrinsically protecting his allies from eating that same attack. If that attack hits, the Rogue expends less resources (HP) than the equivalent Fighter.

That's assuming that first attack hits. If it doesn't (which for a good tank, regardless of class, is at least the desired goal, if not likely), then that foe can either choose to attack the Rogue again, supporting his role as tank, or eat the Rogues OA, which has a high threat level due to Sneak Attack.

To really break it down and grab hold of one of your given examples (assuming Con 10, Human);

Fighter level 9; HP: 64
Rogue level 9; HP: 53

Round 1
Fire Giant Attack 1:
- vs. Fighter: HP 64-28= 32
- vs. Rogue: HP 53-14= 39

Fire Giant Attack 2:
- vs. Fighter: HP 32-28= 4
- vs. Rogue: HP 39-28= 11

In round 2, the Rogue needs a mere 4 points of healing to weather one more attack and continue in his role as "dude in the way", opposed to "dude bleeding on the ground". The Fighter needs a whopping 18.

With a Con of 18 and an extra HP/level for Hill Dwarf (arguably one of the best tank races), they both have an additional 45 HP; enough for the Rogue to stay standing into round 3 taking the full brunt of the Giants attacks. Not so the Fighter.

Creatures with more than two attacks tend to deal lower damage per attack; the Hydra, for example, deals less with his second and third attacks combined than the Fire Giant does with his single second attack. This makes the multiattack argument against Uncanny Dodge entirely false. The Rogue simply has more relative HP than Fighter when it comes to weathering incoming damage and they can do so without limit over the course of an adventuring day (unlike the Paladins limited pool of Lay on Hands healing, ignoring the action opportunity cost of that ability).

Tl;dr - Rogues need less healing than the other "best tank" contenders and can stay standing in a given fight longer. Staying standing and being a threat is pretty much the most basic and essential tank ability and Rogues do that best.
Nop, sorry. It's not all about AC. There are plenty of spells and creatures abilities that targets saves a Rogue won't be that great into, even Wisdom ones until level 14, but also Constitution or Strength.
That's why Paladins and Monks are better than Rogues, the former very early, the latter much later. :)
Also, what you say is just plain wrong. As far as "standing in a given fight longer" is concerned, in most campaigns (<lvl 14), that title would go to Bear Barbarian or Paladin. Having resistances against all damage, including first and foremost physical (Barb) or at least against magic (Ancients) makes a huge difference in the long run. Even if Rogue is extremely good against most direct damage AOE thanks to Evasion and usually safe against restraining effects (a smart Rogue ALWAYS get an Expertise into either Athletics or Acrobatics XD).

Also, while you make a good argument in the principle, you conveniently blurry all the "insignificant" details of comparison, such as...

1/ AC.
Sorry, but no, AC won't be the same. Any Fighter or Paladin tank will go at least heavy armor + shield, whether he takes Armored (+1) or Protection fighting style. From level 1 onwards, they have AC 20 (23 for a Paladin with the +1 fighting style and Shield of Faith). A "normal" Rogue would start with 14-15 AC and end with 17. Only by going variant human could he start with a very respectable AC 18 and end at 19 (best medium armor + shield). That is a cost (especially for an Arcane Trickster wanabee, although it's the same for EK -but not Paladin who can use focus on shield-, just wanted to point it out), whether one considers it heavy or not. A similar Fighter or Paladin could use that feat instead to get Shield Master or Sentinel right out of the bat.
And while a Rogue has to max out DEX as a priority to get 20 by level 8, a Fighter could do the same and still grab a feat. A Paladin is the same as Rogue though, or worse, depending on how you build it (I'd argue that a tank Paladin could safely max CHA first, but that is another question).

2/ Multiattack: I'm sorry, but no, Hydra is not a representative example. Many creatures have Multiattacks that use exactly the same limbs (the most common occurence, like the aforementioned Fire Giant), or different limbs simply for the sake of fluff but have the same attack modifiers, with 1-2 average difference at most (like the Hippogriff).
In fact, Hydra is an excessively bad example to make some general case because it makes as many attacks per turn, and as many opportunity attacks, per heads it has, with a mechanic that make two heads grow for one lost unless fire damage has been dealt. That's why its damage per attack is lesser: this is a particular and rare case of a creature having X attacks.

[Positiveimpact3]

Depends on the character level. Nothing beats tank at lvl 2-3 (or 20) mood druid.

Bear totem barbarian is going to be very solid at all levels against just about any kind of direct damage. (Not so much against magic)

Monk lvl 18+ is an extremely high contender being able to have greater invisibility and potion of invulnerability for 4 ki points in addition to having proficiency in all saving throws and 1 ki point for advantage on them.

Paladins are also decent for spell resilience at lvl 6+

[Zene]

Wow the pro- and anti-rogue camps are both arguing hard! Lots of theorycrafting here.

I can't contribute much to the discussion on straight-class rogue tanking theorycraft. But I do know in actual play, my MC Bearbarian/Rogue grappler tank outperforms every straight-class tank I've run with so far. To the point where DMs tell me it shouldn't be a legal MC combination because it's too good. (To be fair though, they usually say that after they've seen it play to its strengths, but before they've realized any of its limitations, which it definitely does have.)

I haven't played a straight-classed tank to mid T3 like I have this character, so I don't know if they could be as good in my hands. Maybe they'd be better. But looking at them on paper, I just don't see how they could be. The tools just aren't there.

[DivisibleByZero]

1/ AC.
Sorry, but no, AC won't be the same. Any Fighter or Paladin tank will go at least heavy armor + shield, whether he takes Armored (+1) or Protection fighting style. From level 1 onwards, they have AC 20 (23 for a Paladin with the +1 fighting style and Shield of Faith). A "normal" Rogue would start with 14-15 AC and end with 17. Only by going variant human could he start with a very respectable AC 18 and end at 19 (best medium armor + shield).
You really haven't been paying attention, have you?
I've been talking this entire time about an elven Bladesinger 2 Fighter 1 dipped rogue (although you could easily do Ranger 2 instead of Fighter for the fighting style, and get some healing if you don't use Healing Elixir from UA).
So that's 12studded+dex+int+1.
That's 19 before any ASIs or magic armor or spells.
That's 22 with three ASIs (leaving 2 open for feats).
That's 27 with a shield spell.
That's 23/28 if I only want one feat.
That's 26/31 if I find +3 studded.

He gets there a little slower, but even right at level 4 (f1/w2/r1) he's at 19/24 with shield spell.
So he's just one point lower than the fighter (without his shield, higher with).... until he gets his first ASI at level 7, then he's equal. Then he gets better, and stays that way.
Your Paladin and Fighter both need +3 plate and a +2 shield to match my AC.... BEFORE I cast shield.
And all of that ignores the fact that I have damage mitigation abilities and you do not.

And don't even get me started about how you began your career with plate somehow....

Better AC, higher effective HP from damage mitigation abilities, and a far superior OA for sticking.
I'm a better tank.

[MaxWilson]

You really haven't been paying attention, have you?
I've been talking this entire time about an elven Bladesinger 2 Fighter 1 dipped rogue (although you could easily do Ranger 2 instead of Fighter for the fighting style, and get some healing if you don't use Healing Elixir from UA).
So that's 12studded+dex+int+1.
That's 19 before any ASIs or magic armor or spells.
That's 22 with three ASIs (leaving 2 open for feats).
That's 27 with a shield spell.
That's 23/28 if I only want one feat.
That's 26/31 if I find +3 studded.

He gets there a little slower, but even right at level 4 (f1/w2/r1) he's at 19/24 with shield spell.
So he's just one point lower than the fighter (without his shield, higher with).... until he gets his first ASI at level 7, then he's equal. Then he gets better, and stays that way.

You're spending your first three ASIs on Boosting AC--so that means you haven't got Warcaster, right? When the Paladorc is doing 4d8+Str on his opportunity attacks at level 5, you're doing d8+Dex+[1d6 if sneak attack applies]. Just so we have that clear.

19/24 is two points lower than 21/26, not one point. You're eleventh level when you finally catch up to the fighter's AC, at which point the fighter has FOUR ASIs (one because he can be human instead of an elf; three more from levels 4/6/8) free to play with. You've invested everything you have just to match the AC the Fighter had from [whatever level he first bought or found plate armor, possibly 1st].

A Paladin 9/Sorc 2 wouldn't have quite so many free ASIs to play with (only three--e.g. +4 to Cha and Warcaster), but he still matches your AC up to and including 15th level, at which point he's a P9/S6, and he's still doing way better on opportunity attacks than you [since you still don't have Warcaster, and he can Divine Smite if he wants to or use a smite spell, AND your sneak attacks have preconditions to them] and has been since very low level. At 16th level you pull one point ahead in AC, or two points ahead at level 20--unless the Paladin chooses to match your AC with a Shield of Faith spell. Unlike you, he has tons of spell slots available for self-buffing. (Also, his defenses don't evaporate like Bladesong does if the enemy gets surprise or incapacitates you.)

I'm not going to speculate about magic items except to point out that IF magic items get found, the Fighter and Paladin can both benefit from magic shields as well as magic armor, whereas you can only benefit from magic armor.

[mgshamster]

Ok, I've got it.

Name: Enigma Ry (pronounced "Ree").

Class: Bard.

Background: Soldier. Warrant Officer in the Punzer Tank Division.

He goes by Mister Ry, and sometimes claims he's an Enigma wrapped in a Mister Ry.

He's the best tank, because everyone he meets wants to punch him before they attack anyone else.

[Kane0]

Hmm. So many options...

Bear Totem Barbarian: d12 HP, resist almost everything while ranging, advantage to dex saves you can see, +4 CON at level 20
Life Cleric: Heavy Armor, bonus to all healing done, excellent heal that recovers on a short rest
Moon Druid: Once or Twice per rest wildshape into another creature with its own HP pool
Champion Fighter: Heavy armor, Fighting Style, Second wind, bonus ASIs for feats like Heavy Armor mastery/Tough, Regeneration up to half HP at level 18
Rogue: Uncanny dodge, evasion, extertise for use with athletics, a bonus ASI for a feat
Crown Paladin: Heavy Armor, Fighting Style, Cha to saves, lay on hands, spells and subclass abilities for enemies to focus on you
Abjurer Wizard: Tons of Temp HP, ritual casting and lots of spell slots to renew using abjuration spells

Pick one and apply Hill Dwarf for extra HP, Variant human for feat or a +2 Dex race if you're going for a dex build. Can't go wrong really.

[Corran]

Ok, I've got it.

Name: Enigma Ry (pronounced "Ree").

Class: Bard.

Background: Soldier. Warrant Officer in the Punzer Tank Division.

He goes by Mister Ry, and sometimes claims he's an Enigma wrapped in a Mister Ry.

He's the best tank, because everyone he meets wants to punch him before they attack anyone else.
To further optimize this.
Race: Gnome

[DivisibleByZero]

You're spending your first three ASIs on Boosting AC--so that means you haven't got Warcaster, right? When the Paladorc is doing 4d8+Str on his opportunity attacks at level 5, you're doing d8+Dex+[1d6 if sneak attack applies]. Just so we have that clear.
I don't remember giving an order for anything, so you can take warcaster first if you choose. Just so we have that clear.


19/24 is two points lower than 21/26, not one point. You're eleventh level when you finally catch up to the fighter's AC, at which point the fighter has FOUR ASIs (one because he can be human instead of an elf; three more from levels 4/6/8) free to play with. You've invested everything you have just to match the AC the Fighter had from [whatever level he first bought or found plate armor, possibly 1st].
I said it comes a little slower. But it matters less, because of damage mitigation.
And I was using the number that was given in the post that I was responding to. He said 20, so I compared to his 20.
And if you're going to continue with this whole silly "I have plate at 1st level" garbage then I'm not even going to continue this with you.

In fact, I don't think I like your tone and attitude here, just so we have that clear, and I don't think I'll continue it because of that.

And for the record, I've played both a Sorcadin and a Bladesinging Rogue, and the Rogue was the better tank.
Just so we have that clear.

[Bahamut7]

In my experience of 5e thus far, I find that the Monk can out tank many...mind you, my DMs and games have allowed players to roll for stats and the Monk players have been fortunate. In my current game, my Monk player with his racial bonuses got 18s in Dex and Wisdom, netting him an Ac of 18 that is only matched by the cleric with a shield. Combined with the evasion ability, advantages in all saving throws, and possibly devastating crowd control (if open fist); the monk can be a wall of "Oh Crap" for the DM.

[Dimers]

You're spending your first three ASIs on Boosting AC ...

And accuracy and damage, both of which improve the tankiness ... and Evasion, which improves the tankiness ... and initiative, which improves everything in combat ... and ranged attacks, for when melee tanking is inappropriate ... and a wide range of useful skills (which may or may not be Expertised), because all characters do stuff outside combat too ...

The Best Stat In Fifth-Ed. Any build that doesn't use it is just less efficient. *shrug*

[MaxWilson]

And accuracy and damage, both of which improve the tankiness ... and Evasion, which improves the tankiness ... and initiative, which improves everything in combat ... and ranged attacks, for when melee tanking is inappropriate ... and a wide range of useful skills (which may or may not be Expertised), because all characters do stuff outside combat too ...

The Best Stat In Fifth-Ed. Any build that doesn't use it is just less efficient. *shrug*

None of which changes the fact that you don't even match the AC of a bog-standard Defense fighter (AC 21) until you reach 15th level (since DBZ seems to indicate that you're supposed to take Warcaster earlier than 15th level), and you don't reach AC 22 until 19th level. Yes, there are fringe benefits to investing in Dex; but there's a high opportunity cost, and the overall package is late-blooming and not extremely effective even when it finally does mature (at 19th level! only one level away from Onion Druid level!). Not a strong contender for "the best tank."

Even a straightforward Sentinel Eldritch Knight is a better tank than that; an Eldritch Knight/Swashbuckler would have a better AC with fewer ASIs (thus freeing up ASIs for Defensive Duelist and Lucky to improve tankiness), do more damage, and get more sneak attacks (because Swashbuckler); a grappler Barbarian/Rogue is tougher and more fun to play; a Paladin/Sorcerer/Warlock is has more control options and is more durable and harder-hitting.

[Decstarr]

If we're talking level 20, doesn't druid have a shot as best tank? I mean, shape into a Mammoth, trample and potentially stomp an enemy, have 126 HP and once you drop to 0, you're back at your full druid HP. Rinse repeat. I doubt many enemies would ignore that Mammoth trampling over their friends.

[Lombra]

If we're talking level 20, doesn't druid have a shot as best tank? I mean, shape into a Mammoth, trample and potentially stomp an enemy, have 126 HP and once you drop to 0, you're back at your full druid HP. Rinse repeat. I doubt many enemies would ignore that Mammoth trampling over their friends.

Eh the animal shapes are just HP, he's not gonna be great at saves, plus now he's targetable by animal charming spells. Now if he shapes into elementals that's better.

[JellyPooga]

Nop, sorry. It's not all about AC.
(Snip)
Also, what you say is just plain wrong. As far as "standing in a given fight longer" is concerned, in most campaigns (<lvl 14), that title would go to Bear Barbarian or Paladin.

First off, my argument primarily addressed HP, not AC. In the HP stakes, the Ancients Paladin (and note only the Ancients Paladin, as opposed to any Rogue) does better vs. magic (and only magic). Paladins in general will do better if you're playing a 5-minute adventuring day, because Lay on Hands will refresh that much more often, but the Rogues HP once he has Uncanny Dodge, simply keep working harder for him than the Paladins do.

As for the Barbarian, yes he has a HP advantage (+2 per level over the Rogue, opposed to the +1 per level the Fighter or Paladin has) and Resistance most damage (never all), there are some key weaknesses;
- First he has to actually be raging. That takes a bonus action. It also means that your rage ending is really bad news; long fight? Barbarian is burning through his uses/day or all of sudden has a weaker HP pool than the Rogue. Foe can't be attacked? Entirely possible for combats that start at range, combats involving peculiar terrain, any fight with a spellcaster. Fail your Save vs. Hold Person? Oops! Sorry, your rage just ended.

- Second, Rage is a limited use ability (before 20th level). Like the Paladin and his Lay on Hands, if you play a 5-minute adventuring day, then the Barbarian looks better, but in a combat heavy game (like the sort you'd want to play a tank in) you can likely expect 4 or 5 fights a day; a Barbarian won't be raging in every fight until at least 6th level (for 4 combats a day), if not 12th (for 5). Assuming the Barbarian is only using one rage use per fight.

- Third is AC. Barbarians have the worst AC of all the tank contenders mentioned so far. Between no magic to boost it and the inevitable use of Reckless Attack, Barbarians are actually getting hit more often, which (though I haven't done the maths on it) is a significant factor. A couple of extra HP don't mean squat when you lose most of them from a single attack taken outside of Rage.


1/ AC.
Sorry, but no, AC won't be the same. Any Fighter or Paladin tank will go at least heavy armor + shield, whether he takes Armored (+1) or Protection fighting style. From level 1 onwards, they have AC 20 (23 for a Paladin with the +1 fighting style and Shield of Faith). A "normal" Rogue...

Woah woah woah! Let me stop you right there. So your defence of the claim that Rogues aren't good tanks is based on...comparing a Fighter or Paladin specifically built to be a tank to a Rogue that isn't? Talk about unfair comparisons. Also, where are you getting the 1500gp for Full Plate at level 1? I'm pretty sure none of the starting equipment packages have it...

...anyway, I digress.


...would start with 14-15 AC and end with 17. Only by going variant human could he start with a very respectable AC 18 and end at 19 (best medium armor + shield). That is a cost (especially for an Arcane Trickster wanabee, although it's the same for EK -but not Paladin who can use focus on shield-, just wanted to point it out), whether one considers it heavy or not. A similar Fighter or Paladin could use that feat instead to get Shield Master or Sentinel right out of the bat.

So yeah, I agree; a Rogue can invest a little (one Feat) to get roughly equitable AC. 19 AC for Half-Plate and Shield is about the same as 20 for Full-Plate and Shield for the Fighter, wouldn't you say? That Feat investment is, as you say, pretty significant, but if we're building a tank, the cost is worth the goods.


And while a Rogue has to max out DEX as a priority to get 20 by level 8,

Why? All he needs is 14 Dex if he's using medium armour and wants his AC to keep up with the Fighters. Nothing says a Rogue needs Dex any more than a Fighter does, really. Assuming all things being equal, other than Class, the Fighter merely gets his extra ASI a little earlier than the Rogue does. As far as bumping up stats goes, the Rogue has only a minor setback if (and only if) he springs for Medium Armour Proficiency; otherwise they're both free to bump stats roughly equally.

And that's assuming you consider 20 in your primary stat to be essential (pro tip: it's not :smallwink:)


2/ Multiattack: I'm sorry, but no, Hydra is not a representative example.

I'm just using the examples I'm given...


Many creatures have Multiattacks that use exactly the same limbs (the most common occurence, like the aforementioned Fire Giant)

You mean like the Fire Giant I actually used in my more detailed example? The Rogue performes better in both cases, assuming roughly equal hit ratios, but against the Fire Giant the Rogues HP outmatch the Fighters much quicker. As I said, the stronger the attacks, the more efficient Uncanny Dodge is and multiple attacks doesn't change that.

Besides, what has attacks per limb got to do with anything?

[Citan]

You really haven't been paying attention, have you?
I've been talking this entire time about an elven Bladesinger 2 Fighter 1 dipped rogue (although you could easily do Ranger 2 instead of Fighter for the fighting style, and get some healing if you don't use Healing Elixir from UA).
So that's 12studded+dex+int+1.
That's 19 before any ASIs or magic armor or spells.
That's 22 with three ASIs (leaving 2 open for feats).
That's 27 with a shield spell.
That's 23/28 if I only want one feat.
That's 26/31 if I find +3 studded.

He gets there a little slower, but even right at level 4 (f1/w2/r1) he's at 19/24 with shield spell.
So he's just one point lower than the fighter (without his shield, higher with).... until he gets his first ASI at level 7, then he's equal. Then he gets better, and stays that way.
Your Paladin and Fighter both need +3 plate and a +2 shield to match my AC.... BEFORE I cast shield.
And all of that ignores the fact that I have damage mitigation abilities and you do not.

And don't even get me started about how you began your career with plate somehow....

Better AC, higher effective HP from damage mitigation abilities, and a far superior OA for sticking.
I'm a better tank.
First, I was discussing about pure class options.
Your character is not a Rogue. It's a multiclass build.

Second, even this character is inferior to a Paladin (or a high level Monk or Wizard for that matter) "as a tank". You just choose to stay oblivious to everything else a Paladin (or other classes) brings.
I'm not saying your build is bad, because it is indeed good (if you actually paid attention to what other said, you would have noticed I made a similar multiclass suggestion).
But it's totally focused on helping your self-resilience (because you admit yourself a pure Rogue is severly lacking) while Paladin effortlessly supports his whole party, or a Fighter can stack other feats.
You just made a character that starts slightly better and ends significantly better than a pure Arcane Trickster Rogue as sustaining enemy attacks, at the price of a heavy investment into stats bump. Nothing more.

At least stop Rogue at 15 (for Wisdom saves) or 11 (just for Reliable Talent) to get more Wizard levels or Fighter levels.
For example, a Battlemaster 3 / Bladesinger 6 / Arcane Trickster 11 (for Precision and Trip Attack) or Fighter 2 / Wizard 7 (Greater Invisibility) will be much better: at least you have Extra Attack and Action Surge which means you can Grapple/Shove prone while still being able to attack, especially if you have Haste active. You can also reliably use mass control spells such as Fear and Slow which are great to prevent damage on your party on a regular basis (and earlier than a pure Arcane Tricskter).
But the Fighter 1 / Bladesinger 2 / Rogue 17 is really just a Rogue with glorified AC, which is really great but still unimpressive overall compared to other classes.
At the start, you are still inferior to a Paladin or some Cleric. In the middle you are better than a Barbarian. In the end, you are inferior to Monks, Barbarians, Paladins and Moon Druid. AC is not everything after all.


First off, my argument primarily addressed HP, not AC. In the HP stakes, the Ancients Paladin (and note only the Ancients Paladin, as opposed to any Rogue) does better vs. magic (and only magic). Paladins in general will do better if you're playing a 5-minute adventuring day, because Lay on Hands will refresh that much more often, but the Rogues HP once he has Uncanny Dodge, simply keep working harder for him than the Paladins do.

As for the Barbarian, yes he has a HP advantage (+2 per level over the Rogue, opposed to the +1 per level the Fighter or Paladin has) and Resistance most damage (never all), there are some key weaknesses;
- First he has to actually be raging. That takes a bonus action. It also means that your rage ending is really bad news; long fight? Barbarian is burning through his uses/day or all of sudden has a weaker HP pool than the Rogue. Foe can't be attacked? Entirely possible for combats that start at range, combats involving peculiar terrain, any fight with a spellcaster. Fail your Save vs. Hold Person? Oops! Sorry, your rage just ended.

- Second, Rage is a limited use ability (before 20th level). Like the Paladin and his Lay on Hands, if you play a 5-minute adventuring day, then the Barbarian looks better, but in a combat heavy game (like the sort you'd want to play a tank in) you can likely expect 4 or 5 fights a day; a Barbarian won't be raging in every fight until at least 6th level (for 4 combats a day), if not 12th (for 5). Assuming the Barbarian is only using one rage use per fight.

- Third is AC. Barbarians have the worst AC of all the tank contenders mentioned so far. Between no magic to boost it and the inevitable use of Reckless Attack, Barbarians are actually getting hit more often, which (though I haven't done the maths on it) is a significant factor. A couple of extra HP don't mean squat when you lose most of them from a single attack taken outside of Rage.

Woah woah woah! Let me stop you right there. So your defence of the claim that Rogues aren't good tanks is based on...comparing a Fighter or Paladin specifically built to be a tank to a Rogue that isn't? Talk about unfair comparisons. Also, where are you getting the 1500gp for Full Plate at level 1? I'm pretty sure none of the starting equipment packages have it...

Why? All he needs is 14 Dex if he's using medium armour and wants his AC to keep up with the Fighters. Nothing says a Rogue needs Dex any more than a Fighter does, really. Assuming all things being equal, other than Class, the Fighter merely gets his extra ASI a little earlier than the Rogue does. As far as bumping up stats goes, the Rogue has only a minor setback if (and only if) he springs for Medium Armour Proficiency; otherwise they're both free to bump stats roughly equally.

And that's assuming you consider 20 in your primary stat to be essential (pro tip: it's not :smallwink:)

You mean like the Fire Giant I actually used in my more detailed example? The Rogue performes better in both cases, assuming roughly equal hit ratios, but against the Fire Giant the Rogues HP outmatch the Fighters much quicker. As I said, the stronger the attacks, the more efficient Uncanny Dodge is and multiple attacks doesn't change that.

Besides, what has attacks per limb got to do with anything?
You deliver fine arguments about Rage's limits, but it's a bit situational, in the sense that the player is also supposed to be a minimum smart about when to activate the rage and shore the weaknesses. So arguments about Rage ending early are not as strong as you make them look: rage ends if you didn't attack NOR took any damage. If you suffer Hold Person, chances are people will attack you: so deal you damage (advantage): so no problem.
Enemy at a range? Rage does not require melee attack: bad thing is you cannot use Reckless attack, but you still have Javelins. So I agree that this may often be a problem (if you miss, rage ends, and no-disadvantage range is short), in fact the main problem for a Barbarian until level 15. But that's still manageable.
(You just made me think about a Barbarian character that would be egocentric enough to even attack his own pals when enraged just to keep rage active, would be fluffed as a true frenzy, could be fun to play).

And while I perfectly agree about Barbarians's bad AC when using Reckless Attack (exactly why I said in another thread that Monks and Paladin are the best tanks, because physical resistance is just a normal counterpart for having generally lower AC), he can also choose not to use it. After all, what you said as a limit for rage works for enemies too: if Barbarian is the only one easily reachable, they will favor him.

As for Paladin, no it's not a matter of "5mn adventuring days". Paladin has better hit die, Lay on Hands, but also healing spells, and naturally meets prerequisites for Inspiring Leader. Rogue has nothing besides resources (items/feats) anyone can get.
My bad about armor, I mixed up starting AC and end AC. Indeed you usually don't start with a 1500 GP armor. YOu usually end with it though. :)

As for needing to max DEX. Yes a normal Rogue would need to max DEX because everything rely on it. It's not about comparing "tank optimized" vs "non-optimized": any Paladin usually start in heavy armor, and Vengeance Paladins apart (also Oathbreakers maybe?), I usually see S&B Paladins because it fits very well most Oaths.
So Paladin has high AC without any need to make arrangements, while a Rogue needs to as you (and DBZ) demonstrated well: either dipping into a class that brings heavy armor proficiency, or invest into a feat.

As for comparison about damage... It's really funny how you switch back comparison to Rogue / Fighter, because you already know comparing with a Barbarian (or buffed Paladin for that matter, unless you are a Hasted AT) will end very bad for you (on that note, a Fighter or Paladin could natively grab Heavy Armor Master and reduce every attack from 3 damage from the get go, without any need for a reaction: on a Fire Giant, he would end with the same average reduction than a Rogue if both attacks hit. With a Hydra, it would be many times better)...

And all your arguments hold true for a good part of the career, which is arguably the most important because the one most players will experience. But once you reach level 14, Rogue will fall flat compared to a Monk. At level 18+, any and every build with Rogue will fall flat compared to all others in terms of overall resilience (AC/HP/saves/resistances).

[qube]

A Hydra is CR:8. A Fire Giant is CR:9. Assuming similar Race, Con, etc. The Fighter or Paladin has an average of about 11 extra HP over the Rogue, for a roughly appropriate encounter of that level. A Hydra hitting the Rogue only deals 5 damage on his first hit, as opposed to 10.so ... err ... were you planning to take any of the fighters abilities in calculation, or did you just argue that a rogue with abilities are able to compensate for 1 hp/level?



Tl;dr - Rogues need less healing than the other "best tank" contenders and can stay standing in a given fight longer. Staying standing and being a threat is pretty much the most basic and essential tank ability and Rogues do that best.sure, and then you realise the fighter can heal himself. (directly, with second wind, or indirectly, an EK can use a shield spell that ends up preventing more damage then a cure would heal; a battlemaster can rally for temp hp) etc ...

[JellyPooga]

You deliver fine arguments about Rage's limits, but it's a bit situational, in the sense that the player is also supposed to be a minimum smart about when to activate the rage and shore the weaknesses. So arguments about Rage ending early are not as strong as you make them look

I would tend to agree that Rage is better for damage mitigation than I paint it in my last post. All I will reinforce is that Barbarians, while effective characters in and of themselves, tend to be (oddly enough) too frail to really hold a true tank role (this coming from personal experience, both of playing and playing alongside Barbarians). They draw fire, sure, which is nice and tanky, but they also tend to be the first one to go down like a chump; those extra HP and resistances don't go nearly far enough to keep them upright in the face of enemy combat doctrines along the lines of the Imperial anti-Tyranid one of "Shoot the Big One First". An incapacitated tank isn't a tank.

You're right that Reckless Attack is optional, but it's also a very solid ability that a Barbarian will want to use. After all, if you're playing a Barbarian, you probably want to be playing a frothing lunatic in battle! :smallbiggrin: On a more serious note, RA is actually a good tanking ability and if we're talking about more than just HP and AC, then it is an ability that will actively "draw aggro"; an easy target is a tempting target. So as much as it's a quick route to "bleeding on the ground", using RA reinforces your role as a tank; it just shortens your efficacy as one significantly ("the candle that burns twice as bright, burns half as long").


As for Paladin, no it's not a matter of "5mn adventuring days". Paladin has better hit dieI've demonstrated how insignificant the difference is.
Lay on HandsThe Action cost of LoH makes in relatively ineffective during a combat. Uncanny Dodge has a far lesser cost in the action economy and Evasion less again. That aside, the Paladin has 5hp/level to play with here. It looks like a lot (at 20th that's 100 extra hp!), but when in a single round you take 50-odd damage, it really doesn't add up to much compared to the damage mitigation of Uncanny Dodge. 5 rounds in the ring with a Fire Giant will see Uncanny Dodge prevent more damage, assuming the Rogue has some way to stay standing for that long (which I freely acknowledge he does not have...but then neither does the Paladin at level 9).
but also healing spellsTrue, but every healing spell used is one less use of Shield of Faith, Bless, Smites or other Paladin awesomeness; Paladins aren't great healers and their other options using the same resource (i.e. spell slots) are much better.
and naturally meets prerequisites for Inspiring Leader.True. Taking Inspiring Leader is a good option, but is probably better on someone other than the guy nominated for the "Most Likely to go Down in Combat" trophy. In addition, nothing is stopping a Tank Rogue from investing in Cha at char-gen to take it himself; his Cha mod might be lower than the Paladins, but character level is (after the lowest tier of play) the greater influencing factor for that feat anyway.


As for needing to max DEX. Yes a normal Rogue would need to max DEX because everything rely on it. It's not about comparing "tank optimized" vs "non-optimized": any Paladin usually start in heavy armor, and Vengeance Paladins apart (also Oathbreakers maybe?), I usually see S&B Paladins because it fits very well most Oaths.
So Paladin has high AC without any need to make arrangements, while a Rogue needs to as you (and DBZ) demonstrated well: either dipping into a class that brings heavy armor proficiency, or invest into a feat.

I'll reiterate; I'm not talking about a "normal" Rogue. Saying that a Rogue has to build specifically to be a tank is irrelevant; the fact that you can is all that matters. Between various factors, the ability score a tank character uses to hit is relatively unimportant compared to their durability; a 14 in Dex is adequate to stay competitive up to around level 10, perhaps higher with the right party backing you or a GM that's generous with magic items.


As for comparison about damage... It's really funny how you switch back comparison to Rogue / FighterI only use Fighter as my basis of comparison as a shorthand instead of saying "Fighter, Paladin or Barbarian";
it's a little quicker to lump them all into the same "not-a-Rogue" category as "Fighter" :smallwink:.
because you already know comparing with a Barbarian (or buffed Paladin for that matter, unless you are a Hasted AT) will end very bad for youI disagree. Over the course of a days adventuring, I think a Rogue will be on his feet longer and more reliably than a Barbarian and will at least keep pace with the Paladin.


(on that note, a Fighter or Paladin could natively grab Heavy Armor Master and reduce every attack from 3 damage from the get go, without any need for a reaction: on a Fire Giant, he would end with the same average reduction than a Rogue if both attacks hit. With a Hydra, it would be many times better)...

HAM is a significant advantage the "not-a-Rogues" (better? :smallbiggrin:) can enjoy against multiattacking foes. Having said that, as you say, HAM is best against foes that have many attacks; against those with only two (which is the most common form of multiattack, outside of ganging up on someone), it's impact is much reduced. Against two attacks, each dealing 12 damage, HAM is exactly as good as Uncanny Dodge (barring the reaction cost of the latter and the Feat cost of the former). Against two attacks dealing any more than 12 damage, UD starts pulling away in the lead.


And all your arguments hold true for a good part of the career, which is arguably the most important because the one most players will experience. But once you reach level 14, Rogue will fall flat compared to a Monk. At level 18+, any and every build with Rogue will fall flat compared to all others in terms of overall resilience (AC/HP/saves/resistances).

For thr single-classed Rogue Tank, I agree that at higher levels they start falling behind some; UD will still pull it's weight against big-bruisers, Evasion will still negate AoE effects and Sneak Attack still makes you a credible threat, but the reliability, uses/day and general efficiency "not-a-Rogue" Classes gets to a point where they can be considered "always on" or "better than the Rogue". The Tank Rogues sweet spot is between level 5 (when he really comes online as a Tank) and about level 12. After that, other classes are catching up in reliability, if not outpacing.

Multiclass Rogues with "not-a-Rogue" dips, on the other hand...they're a different matter and enjoy many of the benefits of both worlds (but that's an argument for another post).

@qube: no, I'm not discounting all of a Fighters abilitied. Second Wind is great...once per short rest. AT's can have the Shield spell too.

[DivisibleByZero]

First, I was discussing about pure class options.
Your character is not a Rogue. It's a multiclass build.
At no point, not in the OP and not in the thread afterwards, has anyone been talking about pure class options except you, right here, right now.


But it's totally focused on helping your self-resilience (because you admit yourself a pure Rogue is severly lacking) while Paladin effortlessly supports his whole party, or a Fighter can stack other feats.
You just made a character that starts slightly better and ends significantly better than a pure Arcane Trickster Rogue as sustaining enemy attacks, at the price of a heavy investment into stats bump. Nothing more.
Since when is the requirement for tanking that supporting the party or having a bunch of feats.
A tank's job is to stand in melee, protect other characters from being hit, and survive that process.
Respectable AC to start, highest AC possible at end, more effective HP than any other class, damage mitigation abilities, holding power for one enemy via Booming Blade, holding power for a second enemy via Sentinel, and the strongest single resource free attack of any tank.
He checks all the boxes of what a tank should be, and then some.


At least stop Rogue at 15 (for Wisdom saves) or 11 (just for Reliable Talent) to get more Wizard levels or Fighter levels.
For example, a Battlemaster 3 / Bladesinger 6 / Arcane Trickster 11 (for Precision and Trip Attack) or Fighter 2 / Wizard 7 (Greater Invisibility) will be much better: at least you have Extra Attack and Action Surge which means you can Grapple/Shove prone while still being able to attack, especially if you have Haste active. You can also reliably use mass control spells such as Fear and Slow which are great to prevent damage on your party on a regular basis (and earlier than a pure Arcane Tricskter).
But the Fighter 1 / Bladesinger 2 / Rogue 17 is really just a Rogue with glorified AC, which is really great but still unimpressive overall compared to other classes.
At the start, you are still inferior to a Paladin or some Cleric. In the middle you are better than a Barbarian. In the end, you are inferior to Monks, Barbarians, Paladins and Moon Druid. AC is not everything after all.

I never said f1/w2/r17
I said f1/+w2+/r7+
You can build it however you want after getting there. And you really only need r5. The more rogue levels you have, the higher your OA threat, but after 5 or 7 you can do what you like. BM3/BlS7/R11 like you said? Fine. It's very similar to the EK7/W2/R11 that I mentioned myself. It's still the same concept and it's still 55% Rogue levels on a triple class build, making him a Rogue regardless of your retroactive pure class criteria which never existed in this thread.


I disagree. Over the course of a days adventuring, I think a Rogue will be on his feet longer and more reliably than a Barbarian and will at least keep pace with the Paladin.
I have seen this to be true.
I have seen Barbarian tanks, and Paladin tanks, and Fighter tanks, and Moon Druid tanks, Sorcadin tanks, and Monks trying to tank, and the Bladesinging Rogue build outlasted all of them. High AC and Uncanny Dodge combine to create an unbelievably high effective HP pool and a character who is ridiculously hard to bring down by damage. Add in a bit of stickiness and extreme mobility to get to where you need to be, and you've got an amazing tank.

[Lombra]

What I dislike about the roguesinger is that he doesn't have good ways to protect his allies except his own space to put between the danger and the VIP, yes a tank should do that, but if the target is smart it will likely give priority to the fireball-slinger guy in the robes.

Roguesinger will perform great in a 1v1 fight, the problem is about protecting others, not to be an elusive thing that zaps through the battlefield, and if he stands still, it's just an obstacle that you can just circumvent.

That's why I like paladins: compelled duel is so good at protecting others (and protection fighting style in extremis), and you are not going to die easily due to high AC and good heal that takes your action, but what are you doing with your action anyways? If you have to tank you use your action to tank, not to deal damage.

[qube]

@qube: no, I'm not discounting all of a Fighters abilitied. Second Wind is great...once per short rest. AT's can have the Shield spell too.Oh? and why didn't care to much about once per short rest / once per long rest that when you wrote:


In round 2, the Rogue needs a mere 4 points of healing to weather one more attack and continue in his role as "dude in the way", opposed to "dude bleeding on the ground". The Fighter needs a whopping 18.

Even a mere 4 points of heaing form a healing spell is a once per long rest resource.

Oppositely, by level 9,
Fighter gets one more ASI then a rogue. Tough puts him 18 hp more - immediately putting him in a better spot then the rogue. (not to mention, as far as feats go, that one is a bit lackluster)
...or...
His second wind, a short rest resource , and heals an averae of 14.5 ... Which puts him at only needing 3.5 over your 4 hp.
or, combine them, and get a whopping 27+1d10

[Citan]

I would tend to agree that Rage is better for damage mitigation than I paint it in my last post. All I will reinforce is that Barbarians, while effective characters in and of themselves, tend to be (oddly enough) too frail to really hold a true tank role (this coming from personal experience, both of playing and playing alongside Barbarians). They draw fire, sure, which is nice and tanky, but they also tend to be the first one to go down like a chump; those extra HP and resistances don't go nearly far enough to keep them upright in the face of enemy combat doctrines along the lines of the Imperial anti-Tyranid one of "Shoot the Big One First". An incapacitated tank isn't a tank.

You're right that Reckless Attack is optional, but it's also a very solid ability that a Barbarian will want to use. After all, if you're playing a Barbarian, you probably want to be playing a frothing lunatic in battle! :smallbiggrin: On a more serious note, RA is actually a good tanking ability and if we're talking about more than just HP and AC, then it is an ability that will actively "draw aggro"; an easy target is a tempting target. So as much as it's a quick route to "bleeding on the ground", using RA reinforces your role as a tank; it just shortens your efficacy as one significantly ("the candle that burns twice as bright, burns half as long").

I've demonstrated how insignificant the difference is.The Action cost of LoH makes in relatively ineffective during a combat. Uncanny Dodge has a far lesser cost in the action economy and Evasion less again. That aside, the Paladin has 5hp/level to play with here. It looks like a lot (at 20th that's 100 extra hp!), but when in a single round you take 50-odd damage, it really doesn't add up to much compared to the damage mitigation of Uncanny Dodge. 5 rounds in the ring with a Fire Giant will see Uncanny Dodge prevent more damage, assuming the Rogue has some way to stay standing for that long (which I freely acknowledge he does not have...but then neither does the Paladin at level 9).True, but every healing spell used is one less use of Shield of Faith, Bless, Smites or other Paladin awesomeness; Paladins aren't great healers and their other options using the same resource (i.e. spell slots) are much better.True. Taking Inspiring Leader is a good option, but is probably better on someone other than the guy nominated for the "Most Likely to go Down in Combat" trophy. In addition, nothing is stopping a Tank Rogue from investing in Cha at char-gen to take it himself; his Cha mod might be lower than the Paladins, but character level is (after the lowest tier of play) the greater influencing factor for that feat anyway.



I'll reiterate; I'm not talking about a "normal" Rogue. Saying that a Rogue has to build specifically to be a tank is irrelevant; the fact that you can is all that matters. Between various factors, the ability score a tank character uses to hit is relatively unimportant compared to their durability; a 14 in Dex is adequate to stay competitive up to around level 10, perhaps higher with the right party backing you or a GM that's generous with magic items.

I only use Fighter as my basis of comparison as a shorthand instead of saying "Fighter, Paladin or Barbarian";
it's a little quicker to lump them all into the same "not-a-Rogue" category as "Fighter" :smallwink:. I disagree. Over the course of a days adventuring, I think a Rogue will be on his feet longer and more reliably than a Barbarian and will at least keep pace with the Paladin.



HAM is a significant advantage the "not-a-Rogues" (better? :smallbiggrin:) can enjoy against multiattacking foes. Having said that, as you say, HAM is best against foes that have many attacks; against those with only two (which is the most common form of multiattack, outside of ganging up on someone), it's impact is much reduced. Against two attacks, each dealing 12 damage, HAM is exactly as good as Uncanny Dodge (barring the reaction cost of the latter and the Feat cost of the former). Against two attacks dealing any more than 12 damage, UD starts pulling away in the lead.



For thr single-classed Rogue Tank, I agree that at higher levels they start falling behind some; UD will still pull it's weight against big-bruisers, Evasion will still negate AoE effects and Sneak Attack still makes you a credible threat, but the reliability, uses/day and general efficiency "not-a-Rogue" Classes gets to a point where they can be considered "always on" or "better than the Rogue". The Tank Rogues sweet spot is between level 5 (when he really comes online as a Tank) and about level 12. After that, other classes are catching up in reliability, if not outpacing.

Multiclass Rogues with "not-a-Rogue" dips, on the other hand...they're a different matter and enjoy many of the benefits of both worlds (but that's an argument for another post).

@qube: no, I'm not discounting all of a Fighters abilitied. Second Wind is great...once per short rest. AT's can have the Shield spell too.
1. Agreed on your experience of Barbarians, but I'd say that's because the players usually were a bit too true to their fluff ("Reckless" XD) or enemy creatures were particularly smart. Especially true when Barb is not the only frontliner. Brave is different from stupid after all. ^^
And let's be honest: if we are talking about only one frontliner here, anybody is susceptible to get swarmed fast: Paladin has higher AC but takes full damage, Barbarian as said halves damage but gets hit more often, Rogue can only halve one damage instance, only Monk/AT/EK would survive better but only as long as their resources last.
But in truth, it's really hard to make a judgement considering how heavily party composition and enemy may influence the outcome. :)

2. I was absolutely NOT talking about using Paladin's healing to heal himself during the fight, unless rare situations where you just know that using your action on self-healing will allow you to survive until the next round and you can do something incredibly useful that next round. Otherwise, being offensive is usually the best play until at least you get Aura of Vitality that provides a bonus action healing.
I was talking about Paladin being natively able to heal either himself or others (like putting back up a caster whose turn comes next and who could bring a decisive action to win), which a Rogue cannot do until he invests something for it, and being more self-sufficient in restoring his HP during the whole day.

3. I totally agree that attack stat is not that important for a tank unless you build around (like with Sentinel). But the fact is that a pure Rogue HAS to max his DEX or invest into a feat to gain decent AC. Because he is only proficient with light armor. So those two DEX bumps he makes, a Paladin would make them on CHA, benefitting tanking spells efficiency (Command, Compelled Duel), increasing his options (2 more spells prepared) and improving his protection to the party (Aura or Protection).
That single ASI he could rather spend on grabbing Moderately armored, a Fighter or Paladin could use to directly grab Sentinel, so they are more effective earlier than the Rogue.

4. HAM is not "best against foes that has multiple attacks". HAM is plain, extremely much better. You seem to always consider that you have only one enemy attacking you. Isn't the point of tanking, at least one of them (or the primary in some people's view), to try and provoke as many attacks against self as possible?

A "tank" that does his job will usually have at least 2 people on him, often 3 or maybe even 4. When you start encountering enemies with multiple attacks, that's up to 8 attacks per turn. While Rogue obviously has better AC than a Barbarian 'cause Reckless Attack, as soon as both in a compared situation would suffer at least 2 attacks, Barbarian (or HAM at low level) comes easily ahead.
That's the thing several people try to explain to you since several posts. Uncanny Dodge is great, but it does not make you a tank. It just makes you extra good at dealing with occasional damage (ranged Rogue that has been spotted by attackers, or a melee Rogue dueling with a single creature, or any Rogue that prefered to use bonus action on Dash and was hit by an opportunity attack).

A tank will usually sustain many more murder attempts than any other character. Rogue has nothing against this kind of threat level (barring AT), while most other classes barring Fighter (Indomitable excepted but that's really a low resource) have a way to deal with it: at low levels Barb has resistance and advantage against DEX saves, Monk has low-cost Dodge, Paladin has Shield of Faith. When Rogue gets Uncanny Dodge, Paladin is just shy away from a big increase in all saves ("tank" Paladin = CHA priority, so +4). When Rogue gets Evasion, so does Monk. When Rogue gets Wisdom saves, Barb already got his "I won't fall" ability, Monk already got his "your spells will fail against me" feature (and Paladins all get a strong defensive feature through their Oath, although of varying efficiency depending on campaign, but it's from subclass so...). When Rogue gets Elusive, Monk gets Empty Body, Paladins have Circle of Power,
And at level 20, well I think there is really do disagreement to be had. In terms of pure resilience at least, Moon Druid (infinite wild shape) > Monk (invisible, resistance, all saves) & Ancients Paladin (+CHA to saves, resistance, regen) > Bear Barbarian (24 AC without Reckless, perma resistance to all) > Everybody else, with obviously some changes in order depending on the kind of encounters.

A tank wants to get ways to prevent enemies to try and harm friends: Rogue must get Sentinel and/or Shield Master but has nothing built-in, except the Swashbuckler or AT at mid-levels and higher. Barb has Reckless Attack. Paladin has some spells and/or Channel Divinity. Monk has Stunning Strike barring subclasses features.

A tank usually wants to give protection or healing to others when preventing attacks is not possible. Barbarian has nothing (except Frenzy, but very limited sadly). Rogue has nothing except Swashbuckler (single-enemy) or AT (multiple enemies, level 14+). Monk has nothing except Open Hand on Flurry of Blows and 4E (some limited push/pull at low level, one or two decent features at mid/high level). Paladin has many spells built-in, not accounting for Oath ones.

That's all a tank is.

[DivisibleByZero]

What I dislike about the roguesinger is that he doesn't have good ways to protect his allies except his own space to put between the danger and the VIP, yes a tank should do that, but if the target is smart it will likely give priority to the fireball-slinger guy in the robes.

Roguesinger will perform great in a 1v1 fight, the problem is about protecting others, not to be an elusive thing that zaps through the battlefield, and if he stands still, it's just an obstacle that you can just circumvent.
That's precisely how most tanks do their job. By being a meat shield.
The mobility is gravy, it's not integral to completing your job of tanking.
But what you said is wrong anyway, as he has both BB and Sentinel (and while other tanks probably/possibly have Sentinel, many don't have BB). So he protects others by controlling and/or punishing the enemies attacking allies in addition to being a meat shield.


That's why I like paladins: compelled duel is so good at protecting others (and protection fighting style in extremis), and you are not going to die easily due to high AC and good heal that takes your action, but what are you doing with your action anyways? If you have to tank you use your action to tank, not to deal damage.
I despise using that spell when I'm tanking in most situations, because it only locks down a single enemy and it even goes so far as to preclude you from even attacking/targeting anyone else unless you want to waste the slot and drop the spell.
It's good against the BBEG, sure, but most fights aren't against the BBEG.

[Lombra]

That's precisely how most tanks do their job. By being a meat shield.
The mobility is gravy, it's not integral do doing your job.


I despise using that spell when I'm tanking in most situations, because it only locks down a single enemy and it even goes so far as to preclude you from even attacking anyone else unless you want to waste the slot and drop the spell.
It's good against the BBEG, sure, but most fights aren't against the BBEG.

Being just meat doesn't make you a tank if you can't be the target of the enemies. It does is a requirement, and I said that the roguesinger has it.

Against multiple targets you are gonna sanctuary the VIP, no problem really.

Edit due to edit: booming blade is cantrip damage... that's not preventing some beefy things to get past you. You are not gonna get sentinel going if you uncanny dodge, or cast shield.

[DivisibleByZero]

Being just meat doesn't make you a tank if you can't be the target of the enemies. It does is a requirement, and I said that the roguesinger has it.

Against multiple targets you are gonna sanctuary the VIP, no problem really.

You were too quick and missed my edit.
Anyway, this has already been covered earlier in the thread. Go back and read it.
Furthermore, the exact reason that you claim to like Paladin (compelled duel locking down a single enemy only) is one of the reasons that you dislike the Rogue (when that's untrue anyway)?
That makes no sense.
Against multiple enemies I can sanctuary the VIP, and also a second enemy. Your Paladin using Compelled Duel can only do the former. He is absolutely zero threat to anyone else, and the rest of the mobs can run around and kill squishies freely, while you stand back and watch them die because of the spell you cast.


Edit due to edit: booming blade is cantrip damage... that's not preventing some beefy things to get past you. You are not gonna get sentinel going if you uncanny dodge, or cast shield.
Cantrip damage, plus sneak attack, plus potential secondary cantrip damage, plus potential tertiary second casting of BB again on a reaction, doubling it all again.
It is anything BUT insignificant. It stops enemies in their tracks. Or they die.

That "cantrip damage... that's not preventing some beefy things to get past you" is dealing, at level 11:
1d8+4weapon+2d8bb+4d6sneak= ~8.5+9+14= ~31.5 primary
+3d8secondary= ~13.5 +31.5= ~45 if they move
+31.5 again if you have WarCaster= ~76.5 if this convinces them to stop moving
+13.5 again if they keep moving after that= ~90 damage when it's all said and done.... if the enemy is a compete and total moron.

Yeah, cantrip damage. Yep.
As for not using Sentinel or UC or shield, so what? I just killed one enemy I was tanking. I'll take a hit this round (if he can get past my AC). He isn't going to do 90 damage to me like I did.
But my point is that BB locks him down. He's not moving, and if he does he dies. So I can certainly use Sentinel or UC or whatever. If I can't, then there's one less enemy to worry about, so it was worth it.

I keep hearing "but he can only lock down one enemy!"
I asked previously for someone to give me examples of another tank that can lock down multiple enemies in the way that you're all talking about. I have yet to see an answer. This isn't a problem for the Rogue. It's a common theme for tanks in 5e. One, maybe two. That's all you get for the most part.

[JellyPooga]

good post

I don't disagree with anything you say at all. The Rogue definitely has trouble with multiple foes and really only shines if the "enemy pool" is small.

As you mention though, party composition plays a massive role in how effective a given tank build will function; given adequate support, the Rogue can be a massive force multiplier for the likes of Conjure Animals in the tanking department. Even being able to draw attention for a turn, weather the ensuing attacks with Mirror Image and/or high AC and UD, then being the locus for an incoming Fireball from a friendly is a valuable ability.

My point isn't that Rogues are necessarily the best Tanks, only that they have several key abilities that allow them to perform in that role more than adequately, perhaps even better than some under the right circumstances. The "Tank Rogue" is most definitely a viable build, IMO. Better than other tanks? Perhaps, perhaps not, but certainly not to be underestimated.

[Citan]

I don't disagree with anything you say at all. The Rogue definitely has trouble with multiple foes and really only shines if the "enemy pool" is small.

As you mention though, party composition plays a massive role in how effective a given tank build will function; given adequate support, the Rogue can be a massive force multiplier for the likes of Conjure Animals in the tanking department. Even being able to draw attention for a turn, weather the ensuing attacks with Mirror Image and/or high AC and UD, then being the locus for an incoming Fireball from a friendly is a valuable ability.

My point isn't that Rogues are necessarily the best Tanks, only that they have several key abilities that allow them to perform in that role more than adequately, perhaps even better than some under the right circumstances. The "Tank Rogue" is most definitely a viable build, IMO. Better than other tanks? Perhaps, perhaps not, but certainly not to be underestimated.
That I perfectly agree with. ;) I would certainly put a bit of Rogue in any multiclass that aims to protect others (at the very least 2 for Expertise and Cunning Action, but up to 5 for Uncanny Dodge is indeed great for many other classes).
I'm for example very fond of Rogue 2 on most Monks that don't care about magic (otherwise Life Cleric / Druid is my favorite 2-level dip). ^^

EDIT: I don't understand what you imply with Conjure Animals (apart from them providing advantage obviously)? I'm not seeing the synergy here, even if once you explain it it will probably seem obvious. XD

[MaxWilson]

Also, where are you getting the 1500gp for Full Plate at level 1? I'm pretty sure none of the starting equipment packages have it...

Maybe from a hole in the ground? I hear the monsters in there have lots of gold.

You may or may not still be level 1 when your full plate is ready (it's very situational how fast you gain XP vs. gold). But it's not like a low-level party has a ton of other high priorities besides armor, either. They can't yet use expensive spell components, most DMs don't seem eager to offer henchmen, and exotic poisons aren't really cost-effective against low-level foes. (Sure, you can buy some just in case you meet a high-level foe--but it's probably not a higher priority than getting good armor.)

[Yagyujubei]

I can agree that there isn't a dedicated tank class but saying that no class can be a true tank is not true in my opinion (see my paladin posts above)

well for me a requirement of being a true tank is a way to force the enemies to fight you which no class really has. None of the core classes really have a taunt-like mechanic aside from compelled duel i guess but thats pretty impractical to have to rely on all the time.

I would say that UA included Ancestral guardian is pretty close to a true tank but even then it cant force an enemy to focus on it...It does give it the most incentive to though. If you could somehow combine that class and a paladin I think you would have a true tank.

[Findulidas]

well for me a requirement of being a true tank is a way to force the enemies to fight you which no class really has. None of the core classes really have a taunt-like mechanic aside from compelled duel i guess but thats pretty impractical to have to rely on all the time.


You also have panache from the swashbuckler archetype. Its a poor use for an action unless you are far away though.

[Specter]

I've changed my mind. Now I'm going for Crown Paladin 9/Battlemaster 3 (Sentinel with polearm) as the best tank you can make.

Spells: Command, Compelled Duel and Spirit Guardians. If you can't tank with that, give up on the game. Spirit Guardians is especially nice, considering you restrict movement and give damage at the same time.

AC: 19AC on full plate. Very nice, but not to the point of disincentivizing enemies to attack you.

Saves: At least +3 in all saves. Nifty.

Maneuvers: Trip, Precision and Goading. All you need.

Champion Challenge: A WIS save that costs you no action, so that enemies can't move more than 30 feet from you. Just tell the casters to stay behind that point and they'll be alright.

Divine Allegiance: If you really want to tank, how about taking damage instead of your friends when the going gets tough?

Opportunity attacks that matter: 1d10+STR can be ignored, but add a smite and a maneuver on top of it, and enemies will either die or respect you. Plus, if you trip them, they may not even get where they wanted. If you roll low on your attack, Precision will save you.

The only downside of this build is that maneuvers are rest-dependant, and spells are long-rest dependant.

[MaxWilson]

Cantrip damage, plus sneak attack, plus potential secondary cantrip damage, plus potential tertiary second casting of BB again on a reaction, doubling it all again.
It is anything BUT insignificant. It stops enemies in their tracks. Or they die.

That "cantrip damage... that's not preventing some beefy things to get past you" is dealing, at level 11:
1d8+4weapon+2d8bb+4d6sneak= ~8.5+9+14= ~31.5 primary
+3d8secondary= ~13.5 +31.5= ~45 if they move
+31.5 again if you have WarCaster= ~76.5 if this convinces them to stop moving
+13.5 again if they keep moving after that= ~90 damage when it's all said and done.... if the enemy is a compete and total moron.

Yeah, cantrip damage. Yep.
As for not using Sentinel or UC or shield, so what?

Wait, so now your Roguesinger has Sentinel AND Warcaster? You have exactly four ASIs, and it takes two ASIs plus Bladesong for you even to match the AC of a bog-standard Defense Fighter. If you're investing in Sentinel and Warcaster, that means you will NEVER exceed standard AC and you might as well drop the Bladesinger angle entirely and just wear plate armor. Now you're just a Fighter 1/Arcane Trickster X, so you can be a variant human and start out with Sentinel. That starts to approximate a reasonable tank build.

You still have way less effective HP than a paladorc (thanks to amazingly efficient healing, and more spell slots than you), and worse control capabilities at high levels (Wrathful Smite, Fear, etc.), but once you drop the bladesinger angle at least you can tank effectively without having to be 19th level first.


I keep hearing "but he can only lock down one enemy!"
I asked previously for someone to give me examples of another tank that can lock down multiple enemies in the way that you're all talking about. I have yet to see an answer. This isn't a problem for the Rogue. It's a common theme for tanks in 5e. One, maybe two. That's all you get for the most part.

Already gave an example of locking down multiple enemies, way back in the thread: Warcaster paladorc grapples/shoves prone one Chuul, casts Wrathful Smite with his bonus action to enhance his opportunity attack. He's locking down two Chuuls thereby, leaving only two for the rest of the party to deal with.

If he were willing to forego a shield he could grapple two Chuuls simultaneously, while using Wrathful Smite to enhance his opportunity attack (kick) to handle a third Chuul. I've never seen that happen in practice though--you'd have to know in advance that you needed to doff your shield. More likely in that scenario the bard or wizard would just cast Hypnotic Pattern on the biggest cluster of Chuuls (to which the paladorc in question is immune because of Devotion aura), unless the terrain was such that the paladin's grapple had already closed off the chokepoint.

================================================== ========


You also have panache from the swashbuckler archetype. Its a poor use for an action unless you are far away though.

It's better than you think when you realize that you can actually use Panache on a target that can't see you, as long as it can hear you. You can taunt + Cunning Action (Hide in the curtains). And of course it completely bypasses Legendary Resistance since it's not a save at all.

It's not a super-powerful ability but it has its uses. (I'm biased in its favor though because I just think it's fun.)

[DivisibleByZero]

Wait, so now your Roguesinger has Sentinel AND Warcaster? You have exactly four ASIs,

I have 5, because Rogue.
And I believe I already said I was done with you here because of your tone and attitude.
Just so we're clear.

[MaxWilson]

I have 5, because Rogue.

Ah, yes. I stand corrected--you can become a decent tank by 15th level instead of 19th.


And I believe I already said I was done with you here because of your tone and attitude.

Why are you telling me this? If you're done, then stop. Don't keep telling me you're done while still trying to get in the last word.


Just so we're clear.

You've developed a strange fixation on that phrase. You've used it at least three times now in the past twenty-four hours. I wonder why.

[GlenSmash!]

well for me a requirement of being a true tank is a way to force the enemies to fight you which no class really has. None of the core classes really have a taunt-like mechanic aside from compelled duel i guess but thats pretty impractical to have to rely on all the time.

I would say that UA included Ancestral guardian is pretty close to a true tank but even then it cant force an enemy to focus on it...It does give it the most incentive to though. If you could somehow combine that class and a paladin I think you would have a true tank.

I dislike abilities that "Force" enemies to fight you. I find them to be gamiist.

I LOVE abilities that give enemies incentive to fight you instead of your allies. Reckless Attack, Sentinel, Level 14 Bear Totem, and others provide this incentive.

The most recent Ancestral Guardian path from Unearthed Arcana has quite a few of these abilities.

[Waterdeep Merch]

Tanking has three major facets- damage mitigation, damage soaking, and drawing attacks (or 'aggro').

For damage mitigation, a paladin pure-class or a sorcadin if you're allowed to multiclass for it. They can just have crazy high defensive values for avoiding being hit in the first place thanks to heavy armor, shields, aura of protection, and spells that lend themselves well to defense.

For damage soaking, a bear totem barbarian without really much difference if you multiclass. d12 hit dice and resistance to (almost) everything when raging means you don't need to avoid anything. Just go ahead and eat fireballs and crap lightning bolts.

For aggro, go with a kender thief rogue. Every single thing that finds you will try to kill you, including your own party. There really just isn't any other build in the game that will be as widely targeted.

[Yagyujubei]

I dislike abilities that "Force" enemies to fight you. I find them to be gamiist.

I LOVE abilities that give enemies incentive to fight you instead of your allies. Reckless Attack, Sentinel, Level 14 Bear Totem, and others provide this incentive.

The most recent Ancestral Guardian path from Unearthed Arcana has quite a few of these abilities.

im not saying one way is better than the other or anything, and this is probably just because we live in a world where video games have set the standard for many archetypes when it comes to RPG/fantasy settings and terminology. So because I've played so many games where this was the case, when i think of "tank" i think of words "taunt", "provoke", "cover", "sword and board" etc.

but yeah i do think ancestral guardian path barbarian comes the closest to being a true tank in the game.

[Ralanr]

im not saying one way is better than the other or anything, and this is probably just because we live in a world where video games have set the standard for many archetypes when it comes to RPG/fantasy settings and terminology. So because I've played so many games where this was the case, when i think of "tank" i think of words "taunt", "provoke", "cover", "sword and board" etc.

but yeah i do think ancestral guardian path barbarian comes the closest to being a true tank in the game.

Kinda wish it wasn't flavored so ghostly.

Fluff is fluff, but I don't like the idea of my dead grandpa and granny protecting me and my allies or distracting enemies in combat.

They earned their rest damn it. And grandpa won't shut up about the old days.

[Waterdeep Merch]

Kinda wish it wasn't flavored so ghostly.

Fluff is fluff, but I don't like the idea of my dead grandpa and granny protecting me and my allies or distracting enemies in combat.

They earned their rest damn it. And grandpa won't shut up about the old days.
That... actually makes me want to play them. Just imagine if your power basically comes from a bunch of nagging, dead relatives that think you'd be useless without them. Now imagine if they don't necessarily go away when you aren't raging and they just won't stop nagging you.

Barbarian: I'm going to the tavern.
Grampbarian: Oh, sure. Go get drunk and be useless for the rest of the day. You sure did earn it with all that walking today.
Barbarian: I walked ten miles, grandpa.
Grampbarian: *mockingly* I walked 10 miles, grandpa! Hooey! In my day, all the dungeons took a whole month of traveling through swamps, snow, and random encounters. Uphill, both ways!
Grannybarian: Ooh, do you see that nice young lady by the bar? She looks healthy. You should go introduce yourself.
Barbarian: Grandma, no!
Grannybarian: You're not getting any younger. Think about the family.

[Ralanr]

That... actually makes me want to play them. Just imagine if your power basically comes from a bunch of nagging, dead relatives that think you'd be useless without them. Now imagine if they don't necessarily go away when you aren't raging and they just won't stop nagging you.

Barbarian: I'm going to the tavern.
Grampbarian: Oh, sure. Go get drunk and be useless for the rest of the day. You sure did earn it with all that walking today.
Barbarian: I walked ten miles, grandpa.
Grampbarian: *mockingly* I walked 10 miles, grandpa! Hooey! In my day, all the dungeons took a whole month of traveling through swamps, snow, and random encounters. Uphill, both ways!
Grannybarian: Ooh, do you see that nice young lady by the bar? She looks healthy. You should go introduce yourself.
Barbarian: Grandma, no!
Grannybarian: You're not getting any younger. Think about the family.

Ok yes, that does make it more fun. Would still prefer a different fluff for it.

If it makes it in the next book, I hope WOTC puts in a sidebar that showcases different fluff ideas that could work for it.

[Finger6842]

What level are we talking about?
17+ best tank is Warlock, Sorcerer, Wizard or Bard because they can have a wall of zombies between bad people and you, High saves, shield spell etc...
Sometimes the single player mentality gets in the way. Focus on party makeup just like your doing, but to choose well you need to know what everyone else is thinking.

PS Fear, Prismatic, Wall, Charm...

Druid should also get a mention as Dragons seem to tank well AND become the focus of much attention. Really the only class that can't tank in a pinch is Ranger, and even he gets snare for kiting.

[GlenSmash!]

Ok yes, that does make it more fun. Would still prefer a different fluff for it.

If it makes it in the next book, I hope WOTC puts in a sidebar that showcases different fluff ideas that could work for it.

Good point. They could just change "Ancestral" to "Spiritual" then it could be nature spirits, ancestors, or Ghosts your character has enslaved.

[Vogonjeltz]

That's a misrepresentation. The difference in AC between Dex light armor and heavy armor is literally one point. But if you have Bladesong, you have the best potential AC in the game.

Yes, exactly, the heavy armor will always have a higher potential to protect, making light armor strictly inferior.

Why don't we just itemize the benefits?

Fighter Champion gets:
d10 hit die (2nd highest value in the game)
2 fighting styles (so, Defense + Protection)
Second Wind
Action Surge (for whatever), 4 Attacks (combat contests are great for suppressing enemies)
Indomitable
Remarkable Athlete (for non-proficienct checks)
Survivor
Heavy Armor and shield (21 AC before magic items).
Two extra ASI they can invest in some feats like: Heavy Armor Master, Shield Master, Tough, and Sentinel while still being able to get their Strength and Constitution up to 20.


Ancients Paladin gets:
d10 hit die
1 Fighting Style
Lay on Hands
Divine Health (Disease immunity)
2 Attacks
Aura of Protection (+saves), Aura of Courage (Fear immunity), Aura of Warding (Spell damage resistance)
Cleansing Touch (spell removal)
Undying Sentinel (Half-Orc racial feature)
Elder Champion (1 minute of being a Champion)


Rogue gets:
d8 hit die
Light Armor (17 AC before magic items)
Uncanny dodge (reaction for 1/2 damage against a single attack)
Evasion (half damage saving throws negated on success, only half on failure)
Elusive (no advantage on enemy attacks)
One extra ASI that could be a feat.

Uncanny dodge is nice enough, albeit limited in use and not going to do much against any melee attacker who will have 2+ attacks at higher levels. Elusive is also nice enough, but also basically just a status quo ability, if the enemy never had advantage it might as well not exist. Evasion is good, but only works vs spells that deal damage, something the tankier classes just shrug off thanks to more hit points and hit point restoring abilities.

I'd also caution that Bladesinger suffers from two overt problems:
1) It relies on short rest abilities to improve AC which do nothing against area of effects.
2) It brings no reason to focus on it, in lieu of another party member.

Bladesinger is probably the single worst archetype in the game precisely because it is so untethered from the concept of the base class.

[Citan]

I asked previously for someone to give me examples of another tank that can lock down multiple enemies in the way that you're all talking about. I have yet to see an answer. This isn't a problem for the Rogue. It's a common theme for tanks in 5e. One, maybe two. That's all you get for the most part.
A few examples, in disorder of efficiency (too tired to be really smart about that reflexion right now XD).

- Crown Paladin: Channel Divinity mass Compelled Duel. Not useful against all enemies, but an efficient mass lockdown (on you XD) of many melee people. Extremely good paired with Spirit Guardians and a possible Sanctuary put on you by a friend.

- Druid: one of the class with the most ways to influence creatures's behaviour: Fog Cloud (the usual), Heat Metal (situational, but the big bad guy you cast it on will usually make breaking your concentration his priority), Moonbeam / Spike Growth to make crossing an area costly, Plant Growth to outright make reaching your party (without dying in the process) impossible unless special movement abilities like fly, and the obvious Conjure spells (Animals for a quick meat barrier, Woodlands to apply some mass spells, etc).
Too bad Druid is otherwise mostly lacking the aspects of a tank, beginning with a proper resilience (unless >10 Moon Druid, and even so), but some of those spells are accessible to other classes (including Arcane Trickster ;)) so I wanted to list them here FYI.

- Cleric: Spirit Guardians is actually working against the affect of tanking (why would a reasonable creature go into a zone that damages it, with free will?), but paired with Thorns Whip (Nature Cleric), Command (any) or a friend's shoving effect (or self Sentinel), gives a great locking ability.
Cleric also get many buff spells for friends, as well as protection zones that effectively act at least as "demotivating barriers" such as Magic Circle and later Forbiddance. Life, Light and Nature are better than others at being protective.

- Monk: Open Hand that would really specialize in tank could, provided he hit of course, keep at least 2, maybe 3 enemies in check (4 with extreme luck so let's say it's just no possible): Grapple one enemy, attack him with maybe Stunning Strike attempt, attack one (or two, depending on success) other enemy on which you apply prone. Long Death, although it uses an action, imposes fear on enemies in a 30 feet radius: considering fear imposes disadvantage on attacks rolls and checks, it means you are effectively providing great protection to all your friends and help Shovers/Grapplers do their job. Of course their are ways to break this (especially with an enemy caster), but it is still good against many ones.

- Lore Bard: Cutting Words, features that help with healing, access to of the best "control" spells (Dissonant Whispers, Compulsion, Confusion, Phantasmal Force) and Magic Secrets to pick others would make him a great tank, if he had some resilience. Sadly he is severely lacking in that department unless he would invest much.


Now for some example multiclass, without UA (not necessarily the most optimized though, I make it on the fly ^^)...

CHA-based (complex): Ancients Paladin 7 (Protection FS) / Lore Bard 5 (Healing Words, Blindness, etc) / Wild Magic Sorcerer 6 (Counterspell, any battlefield control, Careful and Quickened Metamagics) / Warlock 2 (Repelling Blast). Quite clunky to level, so better in theory than in practice unless you start at least character level 8 or so. ;)
Does offer some wondrous synergy though in the end: grab Lightning Lure and Shocking Grasp or any other cantrip with rider, bump CHA once, pick Sentinel and Warcaster. Obviously secondary stat is Constitution, third being DEX. Wield a whip and a shield.
You are very resilient yourself, you get Cutting Words and Bend Luck to protect people, a decent Counterspell, and a bunch of spells to use in various situations. Thanks to whip, Sentinel and Warcaster, you can cast any cantrip or spell, even ranged attack, without disadvantage. You can also push and pull people as needed.

CHA-based (simple): Ancients Paladin 20. Ok it's not a multiclass. XD Let's go with Crown Paladin 6 / Lore Bard 6 / Swashbuckler 9: still Cutting Words, Counterspell as Magic Secrets (to pair with Mirror Image), but also mass Compelled Duel, that can be paired with Panache. Obviously a DEX & CHA build, with Shield Master. Much more "martial" feeling.

WIS-based (complex): Life Cleric 5 / Land Druid 6 / Eldricht Knight 3 / Open Hand Monk 6: another wonky build, with new combinations coming online at key steps, can be leveled up in several ways.
The end goal is to combine a Plant Growth with Spirit Guardians and Monk's abilities to lock down definitively people in the vicinity. EK is here mainly for Action Surge which help setting this. You can either boost WIS and then use turns pulling people with Thorn Whips. Or boost DEX and ditch WIS-related Monk abilities, just using Ki on Dodge (because enemies stuck near you will probably try to attack to break concentration) or Flurry of Blows (more chances to grapple). You still have one ASI for Sentinel. Problem of this build is that you don't get any "soaking damage" ability, so your resilience comes from putting people down and dodging attacks.

WIS-based (simple): Long Death Monk 18 / Life Cleric 1 / Druid 1: just two casters levels for occasional buff or Life Goodberries to help a bit with restoration out of fighting, put on top of the best tank (or second best, depending on kind of enemies) in the game.

WIS-based (simple): Moon Druid 20. Oops, forgot, not a multiclass. XD

INT-based (complex): Arcane Trickster 11 / Fighter 2 / Bladesinger 7: with Action Surge, Greater Invisibility and Cunning Action combined together, you can unleash up to a 4th level spell with great chance of success, with Slow of Fear as a prime choice. You also get very decent resilience as long as you don't try to aggro: your tanking will take the form of either surprise mass debuff or concentrating on a spell that splits battlefield such as Wall ones.

INT-based (complex): Bladesinger 2 / Thief Rogue 7 / Battlemaster 3 / Bear Barbarian 8: DEX-based (secondary CON, tertiary INT) Barbarian, Expertise in Athletics, grab Longstrider and maybe Jump as a Bladesinger.
Bump DEX twice, grab Healer feat: you can now heal people on the battlefield, you are extremely resilient when the fight gets harder (+INT to AC + resistance to all damage + potential Uncanny Dodge).
Two problems of this build: Bladesong and Rage are both bonus action (so Action Surge won't help). Also, you have no way to incite people to attack you except Reckless Attack.

INT-based (variant of previous): Bladesinger 2 / Swashbuckler Rogue 6 / Bear Barbarian 12: Expertise in Athletics, max DEX, grab Mage Slayer and Sentinel.

INT-based (simple): Abjurer Wizard 18 / Fighter 2: tank wizard that goes around in heavy armor and shield, using reactions on Shield (for himself) or Protection (on others), preventing enemy attacks through direct battlefield control (Spheres, Walls) or indirect (Conjure).

INT-based (simple): Bladesinger Wizard 18 / Rogue 2: mobile wizard that relies on mobility to avoid attacks, using Haste or other spells to control: with the right Expertise and Cunning Action, paired with free Shield/Mirror Image and Fire Shield+Haste/Fly or Flaming Sphere, you could make some funny things like grappling people away from a group to prevent them from ever reaching allies, or make them fall to their death, or keep them in place while you make your Sphere come close for example.


Once you take UA...
Well, I will need much time to review all new options. For a WIS-based class, I'm pretty sure the Sheperd Druid would make a fine addition. ;)




Bladesinger is probably the single worst archetype in the game precisely because it is so untethered from the concept of the base class.
How so?
Wizard's main weakness is being extremely frail, and having his greatness usually relying on concentration. Conversely, it's usually embarrassed in melee.
Bladesong shores partially the first ("just" AC, but AC nonetheless: until level 10 at least, attacks against AC should be the majority of threats) and reinforces greatly another (+5 to AC which you can stack with Resilient:Constitution and Warcaster, or just Warcaster to instead pick Resilient:Wisdom, ending with something very close to "proficient in all 3 important saves"), while providing efficient options on the latter (proficiencies, weapon cantrips).
Song of Defense also shores the "frailness" weakness, athough this is obviously a feature for emergencies only: otherwise it's better to keep slots for actual casting imo.
Extra Attack is arguably the less interesting feature at least until you get level 14, but it has its uses.

Without feats, only an Abjurer Wizard will have better concentration, and only from high level onwards, and only against magic effects targeting saves. Bladesinger will be plain better at keeping concentration from level 2 to 14, and still better against attacks afterwards.
Basically, Bladesinger offers great features for the Wizard to actually be a better Wizard, while also giving him more options when he has to deal with a melee attacker.

[DivisibleByZero]

Just so you know, I was only skimming, and I stopped doing even that when I saw you listed lore bard as a tank.

[Hairfish]

Just so you know, I was only skimming, and I stopped doing even that when I saw you listed lore bard as a tank.

Then you missed the part in that very section on lore bards, where he stated they don't actually make good tanks.

It's interesting that you complain about other peoples' attitudes when you're such a snippy ******* to others, but not so interesting that I'm not going to put you on ignore now. Just so you know.

[JellyPooga]

Uncanny dodge is nice enough, albeit limited in use and not going to do much against any melee attacker who will have 2+ attacks at higher levels.

I hate to go on about it, but UD is so much better than this implies. All other things being equal, Uncanny Dodge is a massive multiplier for a Rogues HP, regardless of the number of opponents or how many attacks they have.

As has been mentioned, the difference between d8 and d10 is only 1HP/level. At level 5, a Rogue has 5 less HP than a Fighter or Paladin. One hit dealing a mere 10 damage puts the Rogue using UD on the same HP total as the Fighter. One. Functionally speaking (other abilities/healing aside), after the second hit a level 5+ Rogue takes in a day (assuming they don't occur in the same round, of course), he's sitting on more HP than an equivalent level Fighter or Paladin. And UD is once per round.

Claims of multiple attacks/foes being a Rogues weakness because UD is only once/round is misleading. Those multiple foes are just as lethal, if not more so, to a Fighter or Paladin. Only the Barbarian (or other sources of Resistance) deals with multiple incoming instances of damage better*

(*this is all based solely on damage actually dealt by direct attacks and does not address AC, healing, or any other ability that might mitigate hit ratios and so forth.)

As for Evasion; yeah, it's only vs. Direct damage AoE but zero damage vs. some damage is a massive difference. Especially when you have more effective HP than the guys that have a higher HP total written on their character sheet, because of UD. Who's the one doing the shrugging again? :smallwink:

[Citan]

Just so you know, I was only skimming, and I stopped doing even that when I saw you listed lore bard as a tank.
Now we can all understand why a constructive discussion is impossible with you. It's nice of you to finally acknowledge that you don't bother trying to read and understand what other people write, it's the first step towards progress. Good job. :)

[DivisibleByZero]

Then you missed the part in that very section on lore bards, where he stated they don't actually make good tanks.

Then why did he list it at all?
"Which tanks can lock down multiple enemies in the way that you're describing?"
-- "Lore Bards aren't tanks, but they can"
If they aren't tanks, then they aren't an answer to the question.

Druids? Moon only, and for 15-17 levels they're terrible.
Cleric? Spirit guardians to tank?
Monks? They're good backup tanks, but their ki being what makes them good as backup tanks and their relatively low AC (comparably) limits their usefulness as main.

He wasn't answering the question, he looking for things to argue about. In so doing, he makes a few questionable choices, and one so ridiculous it invalidated his entire post, so I stopped reading.

[mgshamster]

I still maintain that my bard would attract a lot of attacks. :)

[Ralanr]

Good point. They could just change "Ancestral" to "Spiritual" then it could be nature spirits, ancestors, or Ghosts your character has enslaved.

Or your character is possessed by spirits that need to keep him alive for their own purposes.

Granted it's still one of those "draws power from something else when barbarians are supposed to draw power from themselves" type of deals. But it feels less guilty than forcing granny out of her dirt nap.

[Citan]

Then why did he list it at all?
"Which tanks can lock down multiple enemies in the way that you're describing?"
-- "Lore Bards aren't tanks, but they can"
If they aren't tanks, then they aren't an answer to the question.

Druids? Moon only, and for 15-17 levels they're terrible.
Cleric? Spirit guardians to tank?
Monks? They're good backup tanks, but their ki being what makes them good as backup tanks and their relatively low AC (comparably) limits their usefulness as main.

He wasn't answering the question, he looking for things to argue about. In so doing, he makes a few questionable choices, and one so ridiculous it invalidated his entire post, so I stopped reading.
You should stop looking for excuses for being non-constructive (to stay polite), because they are very bad ones.

Beyond the fact that your critic could easily be turned against you (you first started in the thread saying that "Rogue is the best tank" and presenting a multiclass build), I talked about Bard because they can easily shine in one particular aspect of tanking which is damage prevention, thanks to several spells from either list or Magic Secrets, plus short-rest Cutting Words and natural host for Inspiring Leader.
Furthermore, a Lore Bard could actually be built "as a tank" up to a very decent level of efficiency just with feats, but I didn't detail it because, like your Rogue, I feel it's going very far to stretch a class towards a specific goal and somewhat diminishing its overall greatness.
Or like your Rogue, Lore Bard could dip into another class to shore some of its main weakness, with AC being first in line. But that's another story.

By the way...
- Any Conjure Spell means having a few more friends on the battlefield you could dedicate to being meat shield, fast transport or lockdown grapplers. So a Druid can "tank" in a very effective way, even if he's not actually doing it himself. And when he gets better forms, it's easier for him so maintain concentration, running away/hiding/going underground or high in the air if necessary.

- Clerics: as I said, Spirit Guardians seems counter-intuitive at first because enemies would rather avoid you. But it creates difficult terrain. So a Cleric could easily act as a moving barrier, either Grappling creatures to keep them in check, drawing them with Thorns Whip (Nature), then preventing at least one of them to flee thanks to Sentinel.

- Monks: they start with only decent AC so as tanks would need to blow more Ki than usual on Dodge, but they end as plain better overall than any other class simply because towards the end, nasty effects targeting saves become as (or more?) common than "plain attacks, against which they impose disadvantage against a 19-20 AC.

I'm really sorry I didn't detail everything by the menu like I was talking to someone that don't know D&d; I was actually expecting you to make the effort and use your brain to make the maths like everybody else here is doing. ;)

[TheUser]

Barbarian/Rogues have Rage + Uncanny Dodge for 1/4 damage and strong battlefield control with opportunity sneak attacks and expertise grapple checks made at advantage.

Paladins have high AC and high saves after level 6 coupled with strong self healing but crappy ranged options.

Human Variant Life Cleric 1/ Enchanter 6+ is my personal favourite.
High AC, the ability to redirect attacks as a reaction, stoneskin at level 8 (resillient con @ 1, warcaster @ 4), and hilarious self healing (vampiric touch + life cleric is really strong).

[Specter]

Someone really needs to take a cold shower.

Anyway, let's not forget that spells can be the best resource for tanking. If you have some Animals Conjured in the frontlines, suddenly even the fighter is taking less damage.

[Vaz]

If you can't get hit as a Tank, and the enemy isn't having much effect on you, what use are you as a Tank? Floyd Mayweather isn't a tank, but he doesn't get hit. If he was in a fight, and he was all running and dodging and roping-the-dope, then the only answer would be for someone else to become the focus of their attacks. In boxing, that's not an option because they don't have multiple people fighting.

But if you're in a fight against 4 other people, and target (a) isn't actually being attacked, logically, you're going to do what you can to have an effect and target (b), (c), or (d), where you will actually have an effect.

Being a tank means you need to draw aggro to yourself, but you also need to be able to mitigate the damage done to you, and prevent the rest of your party from drawing aggro. It's no good if your Glass Cannon Rogue/Fighter/Ranger "DPS" party member is going around dealing 50% damage to enemies every round.

Anyone who suggests that having excessively High AC or Miss Chance (no, it doesn't matter if your Blade Singer has an AC of 33, it doesn't matter, because you won't maintain any sort of control) is doing it wrong in my estimation. You've got to have some AC, so that you're not needlessly wasting HP, but you need to have the ability to actually be hit.

For me, the Berserker Barbarian is perfect, although Ancestral Guardian Barbarians, War/Tempest Clerics, Melee Multiclass Warlocks with Eldritch Smite, Paladins, UA Rangers, and Fighters can all help do it as well.

It has Fast Movement to be able to get up in the grill, and be in front of the party, as well as help control the battle later on. It has the Retaliation ability later in the progression, which allows it to deal damage after taking an opportunity attack, and has the ability to Frenzy for a ridiculous number of attacks. You get Unarmoured Defense - which while a "trap" when optimizing AC (Medium Armour + Shield gives you AC19, possibly 25 from Magic Items - but to hit AC19 you need Dex 18 and Con 20, which means your damage is going to be lower unless you roll stats like a beast), is actually quite useful here - you aren't wearing armour so look easy to hit, but you are just that tough you dis-count some attacks that hit you. You can still even use a shield with it if you really want - although as that further drops your damage, unless it's an Animated Shield, I wouldn't typically do that.

You also deal a truck load of damage - I really like having a multiclass Fighter or hexblade assist for the 19-20 Crit unless there's a well rolled Moonblade or Sword of Kas knocking about, or your DM allows Bestow Curse (Bard, Cleric, Warlock, Wizard) to allow Critical Hits against the Cursed opponent triggering on a 19-20 - but even without that, you're dealing damage, typically with a 2H Weapon putting out typically higher weapon damage than others, you have a large str bonus to reinforce that AND you get Rage damage on top of that, likely Great Weapon Master, eventually leading to Brutal Critical, which adds with each one. With Hexblade you can take Cursebringer/Eldritch Smite for even more damage to burn on a Crit, or Paladin, which can use something like Conquest to get a +10 to hit to offset your Great Weapon Master usage.

As you're a Tank, who is intended to soak up damage, your ability to Reckless Attack is fantastic, and while a double edged sword, helps draw people in to attack you. You have the AC to avoid attacks that wouldn't be expected to hit you, but you are encouraging them to attack you and stop you wrecking face. You don't need to do pure damage - that's what your ranged dudes are there for - your Warlocks, your Rangers, Fighters, and Rogues.

If he's not in combat, or cannot reach someone who is about to hit another member of the party he is tanking for, then he has his Intimidating Presence to scare others off.

My absolute favourite build is a Barbarian Berserker 14/Fighter Cavalier 3/Hexblade 3 for that matter. It did have Curse Bringer, although it's now Eldritch Smite which is a little less powerful (3d8, rather than 4d8 on a smite), and doesn't get to change Curse's target now, but essentially, it Curses primary target on a Bonus Action, and proceeds to Eldritch Blast while he approaches, drawing aggro, and moves as fast as he can into close range - I like to request a casting of Longstrider for the +10ft speed if there's time to set up before a fight. Turn 2, he goes Frenzy, and just starts wailing on what he has cursed, making himself as loud and obnoxious as he can be, swearing at the thing he is fighting - I've played him as a curious Barbarian who learns the tongue of the people he is fighting - mainly to find beer, women, gambling, and insults - he is only just learning to read and write, but knows enough that can throw some misworded insults at people.

When he hits on a crit with 4 possible attacks in a round (he actually has a possible 6 from the Action Surge, and a 7th from the Wizard casting Haste on him - I'm including his Retaliation here), with advantage 19-20 to crit, with a +11 (or +14 if I can use an Oil of Sharpness), he burns a Smite for 4d6 (weapon) + 4d6 (Brutal Critical) + 6d8 (Eldritch Smite) + 2d8 (Trip) + 5 (Str) + 3 (Rage) +6 (Hexblade Curse), with additional bonuses - his weapon is currently a Flame Brand, so that's a +4d6 there as well - averaging 92 damage in a single Crit. That's enough to grab a few things primary attention.

My favourite race for this kind of character is either Dragonborn (Dragon Fear feat), or Half Wild-Elf (45ft speed), because they get bonus Str and Charisma. There is also vHuman, although it lacks the +2, but the Bonus Feat helps outweigh that. Other feats which I like are the aforementioned Great Weapon Master, Shield Master (especially if you have a DM who will let you locate an Animated Shield; that Bonus Action shove can really help control a battlefield and stop people from moving where they want to), Brawny (can help with Grapples or Shield Shoves), Sentinel (again, stopping people from leaving the battlefield), Martial Adept (for maneuvering attack, trip attack, goading attack, disarming attack, or lunging attack), the generically good Alert (lets you act higher in the action queue, and can try and encourage other things to attack you rather than the squishies), Athlete (Str Boost, and in conjunction with your fast movement, lets you stand up and close distance on something that otherwise wants to avoid you after tripping you - you can't threaten or draw aggro if you're on the floor and they're running away), Magic Initiate (Warlock: Healing Elixir gives you an action 2d4+2 HP which you can use 1/day in combat - or Druid: Goodberry gives you 10 HP - or even 30 if you multiclass Barbarian with a level of Life Cleric, but they take some time to heal. They give you some utilitarian things you can do out of combat also, like Friends, or Mage Hand, or

Then you've got the stuff that lets you just generically live longer, and are nice to have, but not a necessity - Hardy, Durable, Lucky, Resilient (Wis),

Note - on this build, Polearm Master IMHO is a bit of a waste - it inevitably rolls well with GWM sure, but you already have a lot of other uses for your Bonus Action, including Bonus Action Attacks and extra uses for your Reaction, and you can get more from other feats anyway. Savage Attacker is a bust feat IMHO that doesn't scale - it's not bad at low levels where the bulk of your damage is coming from Weapon+Static Bonus, but by the time you're getting into Critical Damage, much more is coming from additional sources.

Tavern Brawler becomes a thing if your DM likes to try and disarm you. As before, you get a lot of bonus damage from additional sources, especially if you can cause something to do bonus damage.

[Geodude6]

I am disappointed that no one posted this image as their answer:

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/Qp-B8HWUnhw/hqdefault.jpg

[Hackulator]

Depends on the level, really.

[MaxWilson]

I hate to go on about it, but UD is so much better than this implies. All other things being equal, Uncanny Dodge is a massive multiplier for a Rogues HP, regardless of the number of opponents or how many attacks they have.

As has been mentioned, the difference between d8 and d10 is only 1HP/level. At level 5, a Rogue has 5 less HP than a Fighter or Paladin. One hit dealing a mere 10 damage puts the Rogue using UD on the same HP total as the Fighter. One. Functionally speaking (other abilities/healing aside), after the second hit a level 5+ Rogue takes in a day (assuming they don't occur in the same round, of course), he's sitting on more HP than an equivalent level Fighter or Paladin. And UD is once per round.

Claims of multiple attacks/foes being a Rogues weakness because UD is only once/round is misleading. Those multiple foes are just as lethal, if not more so, to a Fighter or Paladin. Only the Barbarian (or other sources of Resistance) deals with multiple incoming instances of damage better*

Unless the Fighter or Paladin uses his reaction too, e.g. to completely negate that hit via Defensive Duelist (fighter extra ASI) or Shield. Plus he's got higher AC than the Rogue in the first place.

You just can't look at things in isolation. It's not just about HP; it's about the whole build. Really the fighter's +1 to HP is the most insignificant difference between Fighter and Rogue (even Second Wind is bigger)--it doesn't do your analysis any good to focus so much on beating the fighter's smallest advantage.

[MaxWilson]

Then why did he list it at all?
"Which tanks can lock down multiple enemies in the way that you're describing?"
-- "Lore Bards aren't tanks, but they can"
If they aren't tanks, then they aren't an answer to the question.

Druids? Moon only, and for 15-17 levels they're terrible.


Moon Druids, "terrible" tanks. Heh.

Even on the specific topic of tanking multiple enemies, a Moon Druid isn't horrible even at low levels. At 4th level, a Moon Druid can take Sentinel and then wildshape into the form of a Giant Toad. A Mage Armor from a friendly wizard brings AC up to 14 (or you can Magic Initiate it if you absolutely must, although a wizard who refuses to help Mage Armor the party tank is a stupid and petty wizard), and now you can bite one target (grappling AND restraining it), physically block some more with your Large sized body, and stop anybody who tries to maneuver around you to avoid the squishies with a Sentinel-powered kick. (You can't bite because your mouth is full, but you still have Unarmed Strike, which for a giant toad is probably just a 5' kick. And Sentinel works with any melee attack including unarmed strikes.)

At 6th level this works even better because now you can be a Huge Giant Constrictor Snake with AC 15 when Mage Armored, 60 HP instead of 39 (twice per short rest), and an actual 10' reach 2d6+4 bite for your Sentinel attack. Now you can block enemies off from a whole area up to 35' long, and 15'-20' of that is physical blockage (your body + the body of someone you have restrained), which unlike opportunity attacks cannot be ignored just because you're willing to take damage. (Medium or smaller enemies can travel through your body area--in this respect you're now worse than a Giant Toad--but have to pay double movement cost for difficult terrain, which in practice means they won't be hitting any squishies this turn.)

At 10th level you now have access to Water Elemental form which can Whelm and restrain two enemies simultaneously. Plus you're still a Sentinel.

Moon Druids aren't the best tanks--they're primarily spellcasters and summoners--but "terrible" for 15-17 levels? That's ludicrous.

[JellyPooga]

Unless the Fighter or Paladin uses his reaction too, e.g. to completely negate that hit via Defensive Duelist (fighter extra ASI) or Shield. Plus he's got higher AC than the Rogue in the first place.

Rogue gets an extra ASI too, albeit later and has access to the Shield spell.


You just can't look at things in isolation. It's not just about HP; it's about the whole build. Really the fighter's +1 to HP is the most insignificant difference between Fighter and Rogue (even Second Wind is bigger)--it doesn't do your analysis any good to focus so much on beating the fighter's smallest advantage.

It's not just about HP, no, which is why I mentioned just that, but HP is an important consideration for a build designed to get up in peoples grill and take some flak. Analysing individual aspects like HP is both valid and important, but then it's also important to take things as a combined whole as well. When judging an ability like Uncanny Dodge, which solely affects HP loss, it can only be compared directly to other damage mitigators and HP pools. How it compares to other aspects is, as you say, another matter.

[MaxWilson]

Rogue gets an extra ASI too, albeit later and has access to the Shield spell.

Sure. But you can't use Uncanny Dodge and Shield/Defensive Duelist simultaneously--you have to account for the reaction cost. That's why I object to pretending that the Rogue has "more effective HP" than the fighter just because of Uncanny Dodge.


It's not just about HP, no, which is why I mentioned just that, but HP is an important consideration for a build designed to get up in peoples grill and take some flak. Analysing individual aspects like HP is both valid and important, but then it's also important to take things as a combined whole as well. When judging an ability like Uncanny Dodge, which solely affects HP loss, it can only be compared directly to other damage mitigators and HP pools. How it compares to other aspects is, as you say, another matter.

It affects HP loss and reaction economy. Other abilities which participate in the reaction economy must not be excluded from the analysis, or the analysis will be unsound.

[JellyPooga]

It affects HP loss and reaction economy. Other abilities which participate in the reaction economy must not be excluded from the analysis, or the analysis will be unsound.

Fair comment and to address it I'll note that while UD and other damage mitigators like Defensive Duelist are exclusive (i.e. can't be used simultaneously), you can have both, giving you the option of either reducing the damage to zero or halving it if the likes of Shield or DD would be ineffective (which is usually an obvious circumstance). That's not an option available to many (if not mist) non-Rogues, due to UD exclusivity.

[Vogonjeltz]

Unless the Fighter or Paladin uses his reaction too, e.g. to completely negate that hit via Defensive Duelist (fighter extra ASI) or Shield. Plus he's got higher AC than the Rogue in the first place.

You just can't look at things in isolation. It's not just about HP; it's about the whole build. Really the fighter's +1 to HP is the most insignificant difference between Fighter and Rogue (even Second Wind is bigger)--it doesn't do your analysis any good to focus so much on beating the fighter's smallest advantage.

The thing is, it's only +1 on average (16% more hp). That belies the fact that the range is substantially greater for a Fighter (A hit point cap that's 25% higher).

Not to mention a Fighter can just go ahead and burn one of those two extra ASI on Toughness for another 2-40 hit points depending on level. Rogue might get one extra ASI to turn into a feat, but are they going to spend that on Toughness instead of say, Skulker? Probably not.

[JellyPooga]

The thing is, it's only +1 on average (16% more hp). That belies the fact that the range is substantially greater for a Fighter (A hit point cap that's 25% higher).

Many players (myself included) prefer to use the "average rounded up" option, which is exaclt +1/level. Rolling may give you a higher result, certainly and should average out at about +1/level, but the chance of getting a higher result is countered by the risk of getting much lower; not something a Tank can really afford.

Where the higher HD does come into play is during short rests, where the Fighter is more likely to restore more HP than the Rogue.


Not to mention a Fighter can just go ahead and burn one of those two extra ASI on Toughness for another 2-40 hit points depending on level. Rogue might get one extra ASI to turn into a feat, but are they going to spend that on Toughness instead of say, Skulker? Probably not.

If it's a Tank Rogue? Well, yeah, they are going to take Toughness over Skulker. Why would a character built for being hardcore in a melee want a Feat that improves his stealth capabilities unless he's trying to diversify. Don't make the mistake of assuming we're talking about an "archetypal" Rogue who is all about sneaking around and picking locks; that's not the build in question. This is a tough-as-nails, Con:16+ Rogue who is rocking up to his foes, spitting in their eye and challenging them to a headbutting contest. Not a nimble thief.

[MaxWilson]

Fair comment and to address it I'll note that while UD and other damage mitigators like Defensive Duelist are exclusive (i.e. can't be used simultaneously), you can have both, giving you the option of either reducing the damage to zero or halving it if the likes of Shield or DD would be ineffective (which is usually an obvious circumstance). That's not an option available to many (if not mist) non-Rogues, due to UD exclusivity.

I agree that it's nice to have options. In some Monte Carlo simulations that I've run for particular fights, Uncanny Dodge actually hurts your survivability because it tempts you into using up your reaction even when it turns out it would have been more effective to save it for Defensive Duelist on a later attack. In the case of a PC who always makes perfect decisions, obviously Uncanny Dodge can't hurt, even if you already have Shield and Defensive Duelist, but it isn't clear how much it actually helps.

The situation is even worse if you're trying to play the role of a tank, because now your reaction has yet another demand on it: threatening opportunity attacks to prevent monsters from bypassing you and the squishies. A normal tank could just try to physically obstruct enemies (i.e. stand in a chokepoint), and indeed a Rogue tank can do that too, but now he's not benefitting from one of the major advantages a rogue brings to the table, which is that he has a better opportunity attack than a fighter (if he can manage to sneak attack).

In short, a Rogue really benefits if he can manage to be tough without needing Uncanny Dodge at all--he can still use Uncanny Dodge opportunistically against big attacks like giants and dragons, but if he can rely primarily on high AC (e.g. from Fighter multiclass) and Blur and/or pinning enemies prone (again, helps if you're a fighter multiclass or Barbarian multiclass) or damage resistance (Barbarian multiclass) he is in a lot better position to tank--which is why a grappling Barbarian/Rogue is such a fun combination, if you have the stats for it.

From what you've written previously, I think we see the Rogue in a similar light: not the best tank there is, but not a bad survivor at all; definitely has some features worth considering (especially if you roll low-ish stats), makes a nice multiclass tank with fighter/rogue if you have stats high enough for that to be legal. Overall verdict: "better than you might think, especially compared to rogues certain other D&D versions. Not half-bad and pretty versatile." Tell me if you disagree with that characterization.

[JellyPooga]

Overall verdict: "better than you might think, especially compared to rogues certain other D&D versions. Not half-bad and pretty versatile." Tell me if you disagree with that characterization.

That's pretty much it. Playing a Rogue as a tank is much more reliant on the rest of the party than other tank builds, I think, but can do the job more admirably than might initially be obvious when you think "rogue". At the end of the day, Rogue as a tank is best when combined with other classes to take advantage of the best of both worlds.

[MaxWilson]

That's pretty much it. Playing a Rogue as a tank is much more reliant on the rest of the party than other tank builds, I think, but can do the job more admirably than might initially be obvious when you think "rogue". At the end of the day, Rogue as a tank is best when combined with other classes to take advantage of the best of both worlds.

Yeah. Another nice thing is that if you take some levels in rogue as part of your primary role (e.g. archer: Eldritch Knight 5/Swashbuckler 5 Sharpshooter), you automatically inherit some capability as an off-tank in the process. An EK 5/Swash 5 is mostly a ranged combat specialist, but if he has to pull out a rapier and shield and kick down a door/do other frontline duty, he's surprisingly good at it.

[Citan]

If it's a Tank Rogue? Well, yeah, they are going to take Toughness over Skulker. Why would a character built for being hardcore in a melee want a Feat that improves his stealth capabilities unless he's trying to diversify. Don't make the mistake of assuming we're talking about an "archetypal" Rogue who is all about sneaking around and picking locks; that's not the build in question. This is a tough-as-nails, Con:16+ Rogue who is rocking up to his foes, spitting in their eye and challenging them to a headbutting contest. Not a nimble thief.
Not that Skulker would be an obvious pick for any and every Rogue in the first place imo. ;)
A Swashbuckler could prefer Magic Initiate for Booming Blade, a Thief Healer Feat, any Rogue Mage Slayer, any melee Rogue Sentinel, etc...

Skulker is obviously a feat of great benefit for a Rogue that uses and abuses Hide as bonus action from a distance, but I don't think that's representative of the majority of Rogues, simply because, well, there are indeed many good ways to play a Rogue. ;)

By the way Jelly, I'm still waiting for your explanation on the specific synergy between a Rogue and Conjure Animals. Besides the "easy Sneak Attack enabler" I still don't see what special benefit a Rogue would bring compared to other classes (or what special benefit is there particularly for a Rogue to have close Conjure Animals). Thanks in advance. ;)

Yeah. Another nice thing is that if you take some levels in rogue as part of your primary role (e.g. archer: Eldritch Knight 5/Swashbuckler 5 Sharpshooter), you automatically inherit some capability as an off-tank in the process. An EK 5/Swash 5 is mostly a ranged combat specialist, but if he has to pull out a rapier and shield and kick down a door/do other frontline duty, he's surprisingly good at it.
True that.
I'd say more generally, apart from Paladin (really does not need multiclass) and Monk (really requires to stay single-class), any character that want to be a tank can readily profit from Uncanny Dodge and Cunning Action.

And only a few allies can help you much in that regard, or you can grab those buffs yourself.

For example, I'd say a Swashbuckler Rogue 5 / Crown Paladin 4 / Draconic Sorcerer 1 / Lore Bard 10 would be quite adept: armor and shield, Shield Master with Expertise in Athletics for offense, Warcaster, Shocking Grasp and Booming Blade, Command / Compelled Duel / smites spells for offense, Cutting Words, Cunning Action and Uncanny Dodge for defense, not accounting for spells such as Bless, Shield of Faith, Haste (Magic Secrets), Counterspell (Magic Secrets), Circle of Power (Magic Secrets), Mirror Image or Spirit Guardians (Magic Secrets) and all the other spells any Bard can learn. Built with with starting 14-16 DEX, has great Initiative quick (DEX+CHA+Jack of all Trades) and mobility (Cunning Action, possible Longstrider from Bard, possible Haste).

[JellyPooga]

By the way Jelly, I'm still waiting for your explanation on the specific synergy between a Rogue and Conjure Animals. Besides the "easy Sneak Attack enabler" I still don't see what special benefit a Rogue would bring compared to other classes (or what special benefit is there particularly for a Rogue to have close Conjure Animals). Thanks in advance. ;)

Oh yeah, forgot about that, sorry!

To be fair, it's not anything especially good; only where a Rogue is a great partner to have sticking around in a melee anyway (as opposed to skirmishing in and out of one). Especially if that Rogue has Sentinel for the additional Sneak Attack. Conjure Animals adds friendly mooks to a fight, forcing the enemy to choose between targeting the caster with ranged attacks (not always an option or preferable), killing those mooks as quickly as possible (which provokes an OA from the Sentinel Rogue) or attacking the Rogue himself (to little or no effect, due to good AC and the likes of UD). Not a great choice to be making.

In short; it's all about making the most of Sentinel on a Rogue chassis; being low-hp mooks with typically low AC, conjured animals make vaguely tempting targets themselves (one hit, one kill), allowing a Sentinel Rogue to basically double his DPR (compared to, say, a Fighter who would only add a fraction of his own turns output under the same circumstance).

[Vogonjeltz]

Many players (myself included) prefer to use the "average rounded up" option, which is exaclt +1/level. Rolling may give you a higher result, certainly and should average out at about +1/level, but the chance of getting a higher result is countered by the risk of getting much lower; not something a Tank can really afford.

Where the higher HD does come into play is during short rests, where the Fighter is more likely to restore more HP than the Rogue.

Conversely many players (myself included) prefer to roll for the potential to get those higher outcomes. You can't win if you don't play. It's a game, there's no real penalty for death of a character, so I tend to take the view that risks are pretty much always worth taking.

It also makes my characters less cookie-cutter, which I like. Then I can get the benefit both of higher hp potential and higher refresh potential.

[Dudu]

THIRD TIER
Classes that fall short in one or several aspects, or become really good as tank so late most people will never see it.

(...)

3b. Abjurer Wizard: IF you manage to survive the first three quarters of your life (in which "tanking" would require either a very particular build, or spending all your spells solely on this), then you become great: Abjurer Ward + advantage and resistance against spells mean your main threat becomes physical attacks. So you can use more freely all the good battlefield/mind control spells you can cast. Still, it's only when you reach level 18 that you really become truly resilient.


3d. Moon Druid: one of the most schizophrenic classes. XD
Both in "how well you can tank" (good at specific levels, bad others, until the end of career when you become the ultimate tank, trumping everyone except Paladin)... And in "am I a beast or a spellcaster" (most of your career, you cast a concentration spell then Wild Shape for the remaining).
Provided you reach level 18th tough, the spell/WS duality disappears. And if/when you reach level 20, you simply trump everyone else except Paladin (because of permanent auras) and Wizards (because Simulacrum/Wish/etc): Barbarians/Fighters/Rogues (infinite Wild Shape = incredible replesnishable source of THP) and Clerics (Conjuration spells, battlefield control spells to provide protection for your allies) fall short.


As for best "tank" in a multiclass situation... I'll look into past posts when I have some time again (runned out for now ^^). But there are, for theorical level 20 builds, probably a few dozen equally viable combinations. :)

Good thing you mentioned multiclasses.

For the two classes you put in 3rd tier, for example, multiclassing them improve their tankyness and overall power dramatically.

Two builds I have in mind that are definitely strong.

1. The ArcKnight, is how I call it, is the Figther2/Abjurer18. Played it and loved it. No big secret, and is a well known build around the internet. You start with a level in Fighter, grab Con save and Heavy Armor proficiency, as well as a fighting style (preferably Defensive). From there is all wizard until the capstone, where you take one more level of Fighter. Fighter1/Abjurer19 is decent too.

The perks?

On top of stock tankyness from fighter, you get Wizard's Shields as well as Absorb Elements. Abjurer grants the handy Ward that, on top of your con save prof, will make maintaining concentration a breeze. It's only more sweet the fact that you can protect a friend with the Ward using a reaction, fulfilling a very important role of the tank, which is protecting your friends.
Talk about protection, you're a wizard. You employ Battlefield Control to assure your more frail friends aren't getting hit. Fog Cloud is a good lvl 1 spell for that, but Wall of Force really shine in mid-later game. Wall of Fire is enough to block vision while doing nasty damage. You also use Green Flame Blade cantrip for melee damage just to help in case you have nothing more useful to do.
You also second as a superb counterspeller. Think about a nasty Cone of Cold that would hit all the party for 40 cold damage, but with a reaction and a 3rd level spellslot you avoided it. That's some protection you have there.

2. The second build is what I call the Literal Bearbarian. You are mostly druid, but also has 3 levels of Barbarian (Bear Totem). Contrary to the original Bearbarian, who embodies the spirit of the bear, you not only do that but actually becomes a bear. Totem Barbarian3/Moon Druid17.

You are a caster, and you can, for the encounter, be just a caster. You can employ classic artillery, becoming a bird laying on foes lightning damage from Call Lightning. But the tank role comes from wildshaping into something with high Con. And then enrage. You can't concentrate while doing so, much less cast spells.

It has a bumpier progression than the Arc Knight due to some striking powerspikes. The biggest is probably on lvl13, when you can become a Earth Elemental, with 20 Str and 20 Con. 17 Natural AC and you put Con on it because you are a barbarian (for Earth Elemental, that would be 22 AC, unless you cannot add that Con bonus to the natural AC...). You hit as hard or even harder than most melees. You have resistance off every damage except psychic. Quite hard to put down, this tank.

[MaxWilson]

It has a bumpier progression than the Arc Knight due to some striking powerspikes. The biggest is probably on lvl13, when you can become a Earth Elemental, with 20 Str and 20 Con. 17 Natural AC and you put Con on it because you are a barbarian (for Earth Elemental, that would be 22 AC, unless you cannot add that Con bonus to the natural AC...). You hit as hard or even harder than most melees. You have resistance off every damage except psychic. Quite hard to put down, this tank.

Correct, you cannot add the bonus. All Barbarian lets you do is take 10 + Con + Dex as your AC, if you want to, but with Earth Elemental form you don't want to.

You can drop a fog cloud though and then wildshape into an Earth Elemental. Due to Tremorsense you'll be the only one who isn't blinded--unless your DM interprets Tremorsense as not a vision substitute.

[bid]

The minimum level best tank is prolly barbarian 5 / rogue 1 with shield master. You can prone 3 targets per turn, advantage on expertised athletics insures that.

After swashbuckler 3, you can move around and end up anywhere without fearing OA since shoving is a melee attack.
Reaching rogue 5 for uncanny dodge has all the advantages mentioned without any disadvantage since you don't have another use for reaction.
With enough rogue levels, that's painful enough to delay enemies and create difficult terrain by their presence.
And you can can save your reaction for OA early on. As long as you use it once or twice near the end of the combat, you've canceled most of the extra hp a fighter would have.

You probably want to aim for totem 8 / swash 10 for 5 ASI, feral instinct and panache. For instance, start mountain dwarf 16 14 14 8 13 12, get shield master, resilient(Wis), and 3 more ASI at level 18.


The best tank isn't about stopping a single target with sentinel and letting the rest pass, it's about keeping as many enemies busy as you can.

The best tank isn't about having the highest AC/hp, it's about punishing those who ignore you. Sure, that means you have to stay up, but hiding in your shell won't save the rest of the party.

[GlenSmash!]

The minimum level best tank is prolly barbarian 5 / rogue 1 with shield master. You can prone 3 targets per turn, advantage on expertised athletics insures that.

After swashbuckler 3, you can move around and end up anywhere without fearing OA since shoving is a melee attack.
Reaching rogue 5 for uncanny dodge has all the advantages mentioned without any disadvantage since you don't have another use for reaction.
With enough rogue levels, that's painful enough to delay enemies and create difficult terrain by their presence.
And you can can save your reaction for OA early on. As long as you use it once or twice near the end of the combat, you've canceled most of the extra hp a fighter would have.

You probably want to aim for totem 8 / swash 10 for 5 ASI, feral instinct and panache. For instance, start mountain dwarf 16 14 14 8 13 12, get shield master, resilient(Wis), and 3 more ASI at level 18.


The best tank isn't about stopping a single target with sentinel and letting the rest pass, it's about keeping as many enemies busy as you can.

The best tank isn't about having the highest AC/hp, it's about punishing those who ignore you. Sure, that means you have to stay up, but hiding in your shell won't save the rest of the party.

That's really solid. If you UA was allowed I would take Ancestral Guardians Barb over Totem for it. Then you're really punishing those who ignore you.