Need help optimizing a Sublime Chord build

[Greatthomas]

Playing a Bard and i want to enter Sublime chord for my 11th level im 10th right now we have a free +4 level adjustment and i dont know what would be the best to take for that so any help is appreciated also im just trying to make a really good support that can cast 9th level spells i like the bard as a class though

[Pyromancer999]

Phrenic is decent for a bunch of SLAs, and sizable boosts to Int and Cha.

[Greatthomas]

yea any build ideas?

[prototype00]

So the problem with the Sublime Chord is that it kills your bard support song progress.

Most people are fond of taking Sublime Chord for 2 levels then finishing the rest in Virtuoso which does progress Sublime Chord casting (so 9th lvl spells) and Bardsong (so maxed Inspire Courage). Virtuoso is trivial to get into for most Bards.

[Greatthomas]

yea i was thinking viruoso but i was trying to fit lyric thaumaturge but i cant figure out how

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

For the +4 LA, a variant Half-Fiend (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060630a) based on a high-Cha fiend could get you a +8 Cha with a bunch of other benefits like DR, flight, natural weapons, SR, resistances, and some potentially powerful spell-like abilities. I'd probably go with a mix of lower-LA templates/race that add up to +4.

The Magic-Blooded template in Dragon 306 p64 gives +2 Cha, -2 Wis, and a few minor benefits for +0 LA. You can add that onto whatever you decide to go with, if it's available.

Phrenic Creature (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/phrenicCreature.htm) is +4 Cha for a +2 LA, and a ton of spell-like abilities, plus Power Resistance.

Primordial Giant in Secrets of Xen'drik is +0 LA for +4 Cha, but it must be applied to a creature of the giant type. Half-Giant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicRaces.htm#halfGiants) is +1 LA with no Cha penalty, but you can't put Phrenic on it.

Half-Fey (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a) gives +4 Cha for +2 LA, along with flight and a list of spell-like abilities, plus other benefits. You can choose to only take one level of that template class (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a) for only a +1 LA, but you'll miss out on flight.

I'd probably go with a Silverbrow Human with Magic-Blooded, Phrenic, and Half-Fey. That also gets you the Dragonblood subtype, which will be important. Consider going with a Lesser Aasimar instead if you can get the feat Magic in the Blood, which makes all your 1/day racial spell-like abilities usable 3/day instead.


For the build, Savage Bard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bardVariantSavageBard) is generally better than Bard in every way. Trade Fascinate for Healing Hymn, trade Countersong for Spellbreaker Song, probably trade Bardic Knowledge for Bardic Knack, and trade Suggestion for Song of the Heart. You'll want eight levels of Bard in your build.

You'll have two class levels before taking Sublime Chord, which should be two single-level dips. One level of Dragon Devotee gets you +2 Cha and +1 natural armor and the prerequisites are trivial. One level of Mindbender gets you Telepathy and qualifies you for Mindsight, but you can't be good aligned so no Words of Creation or Ancestral Relic. One level of Sorcerer gets you Draconic Heritage for free with the Dragonblood subtype substitution level, and you can use wands of Sorcerer spells such as Wings of Cover. One level of Warblade gets you Iron Heart Surge and Wall of Blades, along with weapon proficiencies. You could also go Bard 8/ Virtuoso 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Virtuoso 8 if you prefer to keep it simple.

I would personally choose Savage Bard 8/ Dragonblood Sorcerer 1/ Dragon Devotee 1/ Sublime Chord 2/ PrCs that advance Sublime Chord spellcasting, using the above Silverbrow Human of course.


Inspire Courage is quite powerful, if optimized. Your Song of the Heart feat boosts it by +1, you can learn the spell Inspirational Boost to get another +1, use a Badge of Valor to add another +1, and even use Words of Creation to double the effect. The Badge of Valor must be added last since it's a separate action and all the others trigger when the inspiration starts, so at Bard 8 you'll have +2+1+1, Words of Creation doubles that to +8, and the Badge of Valor increases that to a +9 to attack and damage rolls. You can take Dragonfire Inspiration to convert that to +9d6 fire damage on every attack, use Draconic Heritage from the Sorcerer level to convert that to Sonic damage, and cast Creaking Cacophony to give opponents vulnerability to sonic damage so they take 50% more from it. That's basically an Empowered Fireball worth of damage every time someone hits with a melee or ranged attack. Of course you'll want the feat Melodic Casting so you can still cast spells while inspiring everyone. You can pick up Leadership and get a Bard cohort who also inspires +9 to attack and damage or +9d6 damage of a different type (probably fire).

Take Wild Cohort (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) for an animal companion that gets multiple attacks to dish out even more damage from your Inspire Courage effects. You could also get Obtain Familiar and Improved Familiar if you have enough feats. Also get an Eternal Wand (MIC) of Hound of Doom (CW), since anyone who can cast arcane spells can use an eternal wand.

Get an Elvencraft composite bow in Races of the Wild, a shortbow also counts as a club and a longbow also counts as a quarterstaff (but proficiency). It needs to be made Masterwork multiple times, but you can put as many Wand Chambers in it and fill them with useful wands like Nerveskitter, Benign Transposition, Command Undead, Wings of Cover, etc. Keep in mind that per the Rules Compendium a wand takes the same action to activate as the casting time of the spell it contains, so as long as you're holding that wand-chambered weapon you have the wands ready to activate.

Consider taking Ancestral Relic for a custom Runestaff (MIC p224), it can even be your Elvencraft Composite Longbow. You can freely choose which spells that contains, up to the value invested and maximum value for your level. Any time the party would sell junk loot for half value, buy it from the party pool for that price, get a portion of that amount back when cash is split, and sacrifice the full value of that loot into your relic so you'll be upgrading it for less than half price. Make all three portions of it +1 Defending and use Greater Magic Weapon on each, and add all three bonuses to your AC every round since Defending stacks with all other bonuses, including other Defending bonuses. You can replace existing magic effects with different ones as long as the total value is within your limits every time you modify it, so you can meditate to replace Runestaff spells with different ones of the same level and it takes zero time if the value increase is zero, you just need to be in the area of a Consecrate (Incense of Consecration, or a redeemed Ring of Desecration (https://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/dx20021031x)). Keep in mind that this is extremely powerful, as it completely circumvents your normally limited number of spells known, so only use this trick in extremely high powered games. You can even put non-Bard spells on that and make a UMD check each day when you attune to it to emulate the class whose list they're from (Archivist) and you can use any class's spell slots to cast them.

So you'll definitely want Melodic Casting, Dragonfire Inspiration, Words of Creation, and Wild Cohort. You'll get Draconic Heritage and Song of the Heart as bonus feats. I'd get two flaws (Love of Nature for sure) for two extra feats, probably Point-Blank Shot and Precise Shot. Also consider Versatile Spellcaster, Ancestral Relic as discussed, Obtain Familiar and Improved Familiar as discussed, and of course every character should have Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm) if available.

[Anthrowhale]

In addition to BFs thorough suggestions, I might be interested in something like Trickster Spellthief 9/Heartfire Fanner 1 as the leadin to Sublime Chord. Trickster Spellthief gives you the ability to borrow spells from allies and greatly increases your spell list while Heartfire Fanner 1 allows you to grant fighter feats.

[Xethik]

Heartfire Fanner can also come in after Sublime Chord, unless you need the spellcasting on Spell thief (Trickster has Bard spell progression IIRC, so I don't think that is necessary).

I'm rocking a Bard 4/Paladin of Freedom 2/Lyric Thaumaturge 3/War Weaver 1/Sublime Chord 2/Sacred Exorcist 1/War Weaver 2-5 build.

My Inspire Courage effectiveness isn't great, but feels like more than enough with Song of the Heart + Inspirational Boost. Spellcasting feels strong, too. Sacred Exorcist is in there for Divine Metamagic Persist shenanigans, but that probably won't work in all games. We're playing with Pathfinder feat progression, so it was a bit more affordable to pull the tricks needed for DMM on Sublime Chord (Southern Magician, Extend Spell, Persist Spell, DMM[Persist]). Saving throws are insane with Divine Grace from Paladin, and Ruin Delver's Fortune makes it impossible to fail on anything but a 1.

The Lyric Thaumaturge was to pick up Shield + Wraithstrike, as I was initally going for a gish build. I've since moved away from that, but the PrC could still be nice for things like Heroics (really great with War Weaver) and Nerveskitter (similarly awesome with War Weaver). It does hurt your Bardic Music progression, if I recall, but something like Heartfire Fanner to finish up the build will give you all the Bardic Music you missed out on.

[Greatthomas]

Thanks for all the replies some ideas to consider ill probably just do half fey phrenic