[5E] Monk Monastic Tradition - Way of the Iron Fist

[Surrealistik]

http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/S1ZWo948mW

I essentially wanted something that felt more like a cinematic Hong Kong blood opera style martial artist with a true focus on unarmed strikes that I don't feel was adequately captured with the Open Hand (which kind of meandered all over the place IMO) which would let the Monk remain competitive with Fighters/Barbarians/Rangers, etc rocking their glowing/flaming +5 greater pimpcane of murderdeathkill while still using only his fists.

[JNAProductions]

Deflect Blows is too good.

Master of the Iron Fist seems way too good as well.

[Surrealistik]

Deflect Blows is too good.

I'm unsure about the CP cost; I think it might stand to be 1 point higher (it's currently costed at ~2.5 in real terms given the miss chance of the redirected attack). 1 Ki seems more than about right though given that could be a Stunning Fist. Overall though it seems to be about on par with the power of say Shadow Step albeit obviously more combat orientated.


Master of the Iron Fist seems way too good as well.

What about it specifically? To be clear, because it's been misinterpreted before, you get only one bonus CP per turn, not per CP gain trigger.

[JNAProductions]

The issue isn't the Ki or CP ability-the issue is the ability to reduce literally any attack (ranged or melee) by 1d10+Dex+Monk level. That's crazy tanky, even if limited to once per turn.

And I don't know exactly on Master-it's just a gut feeling. I would DEFINITELY nerf Deflect Blows, but Master could be playtested as is.

[Surrealistik]

The issue isn't the Ki or CP ability-the issue is the ability to reduce literally any attack (ranged or melee) by 1d10+Dex+Monk level. That's crazy tanky, even if limited to once per turn.

Well I mean, on the flipside the Rogue Uncanny Dodge has no conditionals at all (works even against ranged spell attacks) and straight up halves damage at L5.

Also, I can't see it being head and shoulders above Shadow Step which is useful in battle and has crazy utility outside of it.

[JNAProductions]

Drow Elite Warrior, CR5. Does 17 damage on average per attack. Rogue takes 8/9 (still not sure which way to round), your Monk takes 2-3.

Frost Giant, CR8. Does 25 damage on average per attack. Rogues takes 12/13, your Monk takes 8-9 (assuming 18 Dex).

Dao, CR11. Does 20 damage on average per attack. Rogue takes 10, your Monk takes 0 (assuming 18 Dex).

Ancient Bronze Dragon, CR22. Does 20 damage with its most damaging attack. Rogue takes 10 damage. Your Monk takes 0, on average, and 3 MAX.

[Surrealistik]

Drow Elite Warrior, CR5. Does 17 damage on average per attack. Rogue takes 8/9 (still not sure which way to round), your Monk takes 2-3.

Frost Giant, CR8. Does 25 damage on average per attack. Rogues takes 12/13, your Monk takes 8-9 (assuming 18 Dex).

Dao, CR11. Does 20 damage on average per attack. Rogue takes 10, your Monk takes 0 (assuming 18 Dex).

Ancient Bronze Dragon, CR22. Does 20 damage with its most damaging attack. Rogue takes 10 damage. Your Monk takes 0, on average, and 3 MAX.

I get it and I understand; it's still more consistent though in that it applies even vs ranged spell attacks which are generally the most devastating of all. Besides that, again, is it really head and shoulders above Shadow Step (Wholeness is pretty crap)?

[JNAProductions]

You have Deflect Missiles for ranged attacks. It's really only AoE that you can't handle, and you actually have Evasion for most of them.

(I'm AFB, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure you can deflect spells with that.)

[Surrealistik]

You have Deflect Missiles for ranged attacks. It's really only AoE that you can't handle, and you actually have Evasion for most of them.

(I'm AFB, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure you can deflect spells with that.)

Deflect Missiles applies only to ranged weapon attacks unfortunately. :(

[JNAProductions]

What? Why can't Monks be a badass deflecting Disintegrates and all that jazz?

All the same, most enemies tend to use weapons or natural attacks, which are deflectable. So I'd still advise looking for some way to change it.

[Surrealistik]

What? Why can't Monks be a badass deflecting Disintegrates and all that jazz?

All the same, most enemies tend to use weapons or natural attacks, which are deflectable. So I'd still advise looking for some way to change it.

It'd be an easy enough tweak in terms of the numbers (halving say the class level, or perhaps eliminating the Dex mod and Dice roll); the main concern is really is it powerful enough overall vs the gold standard of Shadow Step to merit nerfing? As a campaign progresses, multiattacks become abundantly common and thus its power significantly declines (ratio of damage mitigated to damage dealt) whereas SS is always going to be extremely useful.

[T.G. Oskar]

The biggest concern I find is that you're adding a second pool of resources (Combo Points) to do what Ki already does, except you're building it so that it's already a huge resource from level 1. Ki already exists, but it doesn't recharge; I'd find more elegant to treat Combo Points as if they were temporary hit points, but in the case of ki: to be precise, have each unarmed attack made without wielding a shield or weapon (don't forget armor; as it is, you can wear armor even if it's counterproductive and still gain the benefits of Initiate of the Iron Fist) grant 1 point of temporary Ki, which lasts until the end of your next turn. You can use it as you'd normally use Ki, but since you don't have that many supernatural uses of Ki until the top levels (the only true supernatural ability you get is Empty Body, since you can justify Stunning Strike as something as mundane as knocking the opponent's head with your fist), and rework the Ki cost of each of the new "maneuvers" you get.

In fact, I'd consider combining the "temporary Ki" aspect with the Battlemaster's maneuvers. Say - note the 2 CP ability that lets you shove an opponent? That's basically a modified Pushing Attack. The 3 CP ability is somewhat redundant, if you think about it, because while it allows you to shove (either knock prone or push) as part of your attack, rather than have them separate, it involves pretty much all of the limitations of shove (barring spending 1 Ki, not CP, to ignore size limitations). I'd go for Pushing Attack and Trip Attack as maneuvers, with the cost of ki acting as if a Superiority die spent as a Fighter of the Monk's level. The Cavalier and Samurai from the UA articles already have alternative ways to use superiority dice for non-combat actions; the Iron Fist would benefit from those as well, thus allowing the actions that have no parallel as maneuvers (the free grapple attempt, for example). That would standardize them, rather than create a completely new resource that overlaps with Ki.

In that way, you still use the given resources for the Monk while giving it greater flexibility. Though, the "temporary Ki" aspect would make it better than the Battlemaster, as you have essentially near-infinite Ki so as long as you fight exclusively with Unarmed Strikes, which is its balancing point; after all, it precludes even Monk weapons, and in particular ranged weapons, to specialize in melee combat (something the Battlemaster can do instead).

As for Deflect Blows...I don't find it that overwhelming. It's essentially Deflect Missiles for melee attacks, or what's the same thing, Parry. It also applies to one attack, and it consumes your Reaction, which could be used for something else. Just don't make it recover Combo Points (or temporary Ki, if you like the idea), and it's fair enough (in fact, look at the Battlemaster's Parry, it requires superiority dice to activate, so you could say you require a Combo Point/Ki point to activate, and just make it a melee version of Deflect Missiles). Master of the Iron Fist is all over the place, though - while getting extra Combo Points isn't that bad, and expending Ki for CP is...kinda meh, considering you can go Flurry of Blows and get 2 CP while still dealing damage (far more practical use of Ki), the immediate boost to Martial Arts damage from 1d8 to 1d12 is kinda worrisome. Sure, the Fighter had access to Greataxe and Greatsword 16 levels before, but it breaks the pacing of the Martial Arts damage progression, and the Fighter can't use its Dexterity for attack and damage with those weapons, meaning you get Greataxe damage with comparable AC (no shield, but 20 Dex and 20 Wis is equivalent to Full Plate + Shield anyways, and better than Full Plate + Defense fighting style), better Dexterity saves and better Initiative.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I'm going to second T. G. Oskar's suggestion of using combo points as temporary ki. It's a cool idea, but as a general rule, I think it's best not to have multiple (significant) resource types on a single character, ESPECIALLY when they fill such similar roles. (I think I might drop most of the two-point options, though. Most of those seem on the strong side, or at least feel too close to the Open Hand stuff).

Also going to agree that the Deflect Blows isn't that bad. It's certainly very good, but a Monk is an inherently frail melee character with less reliable ways of doing hit-and-run than the Rogue.

Ki Focus is kind of neat, though it feels conceptually odd. I'd almost rather you just eat the enchantment and have it until you replace it. Or maybe for 24 hours or something. Drawing continuously from a nearby item is weird.

Also agreeing that Master of the Iron Fist is unfocused. Why not have a literal Iron Fist? Spend 3ki (as a bonus action?) to add +10d10 damage to your next unarmed attack, or something like that.

[Surrealistik]

I don't like the idea of Temp Ki for the simple reason that it's probably too powerful; it'd probably mean stunning fist for days (and the class already has serious problems with being reducible to stunning fist spam, lol). CP was intended as an alternate, momentum based resource for giving you consistent access to a variety of weaker options.

Using BM maneuvers is somewhat more attractive conceptually, but it'd require a serious rework and would likely demand that the vast majority of options be priced at around 4-5 CP to address the increased power of those options and the fact that you generate these resources outside of rests.

Regarding Master, my logic for the CP generation was that since attacks feature a miss chance, and you can get one extra attack for free via Martial Arts, Flurry of Blows only really affords you .95-.5 CP for a Ki point. I wouldn't be averse to upping it to 5, but you definitely get less CP per FoB than 2.

As for the Martial Arts progression, the way I see it, what is a +1 average damage bump over a baseline Monk is not particularly strong, though yes, it does mess with the MA progression.

I hear you on the benefits being a little too diverse though. The component that seems truly problematic to me is the Ki to CP converter.

Ki Focus is essentially there to let the Monk's unarmed strikes compete with the +5 flaming pimpcanes of murderkill every other martial likely has by this point.

[JNAProductions]

Ki Focus honestly probably isn't needed. Most people tend not to have overly powerful magic items-they might have a little bit better than a Monk's bare fists, but then again, Monks put out three attacks at 1d10. Most people need a feaet and a Fighting Style to be doing even d8s with ability mods. It's not a bad feature-I just think you overestimate how common truly powerful magic weapons are.

[Surrealistik]

Ki Focus honestly probably isn't needed. Most people tend not to have overly powerful magic items-they might have a little bit better than a Monk's bare fists, but then again, Monks put out three attacks at 1d10. Most people need a feaet and a Fighting Style to be doing even d8s with ability mods. It's not a bad feature-I just think you overestimate how common truly powerful magic weapons are.

At L11, odds are pretty good they're at least probably starting to be a thing, or will be soon enough. I mean even a +1 weapon offers significant advantages.

[T.G. Oskar]

I don't like the idea of Temp Ki for the simple reason that it's probably too powerful; it'd probably mean stunning fist for days (and the class already has serious problems with being reducible to stunning fist spam, lol). CP was intended as an alternate, momentum based resource for giving you consistent access to a variety of weaker options.

Temporary Ki is still a momentum-based resource: it won't last for very long, and you still have a hard cap (which gets noticeable only after level 11, when you get enough Ki points to matter). At level 3, when you get the ability, you get only 3 Ki points, and a variety of ways to use them (Flurry of Blows, Patient Defense, Step of the Wind). Rather than have a Ki excess, have the temporary Ki be limited to your normal Ki pool limit; thus, you wouldn't get Ki if the pool is full; spend 1, and you can only recharge 1 point per attack. You could, of course, spend all points, but you recover about 2 points per turn (if you spend your bonus action to make a single attack; even with Flurry of Blows, it's 3 points per hit but 1 point spent, so it's a net +2 gain). It lets the Monk go a bit more nova, but not by much. Come level 5, and you get Stunning Strike; again, a superb resource to use Ki points on, but you only get a maximum of 5 points. You could go nova, but you're still recovering at best 3 Ki/turn. And, as you mention below, there's the chance of missing the attack, therefore getting less temporary Ki. By level 11, with a Ki pool of 11, you get to save a few uses for when necessary, while still making good use of your abilities and giving you a whole lot more durability: again, you can go nova with Flurry + Iron Fist maneuvers + Stunning Strike with every hit, but you're wasting about 8 ki per use when you barely recover about 3, so you'll be returning to 5th level expenditure by 2 turns at most.

If you see temporary Ki as a pool buffer (you get to subsidize the expenditure of that resource, but never make it infinite enough to spend it all without repercussions), you'll see it's a bit easier to handle. I had the idea of having temporary Ki be limited to your maximum, but never mentioned it, so it looked like infinite Ki (hit twice, next turn use Flurry of Blows and Stunning Strike with your free Ki, then go to camp). Think of it as a Ki buffer, and it might look nicer.


Using BM maneuvers is somewhat more attractive conceptually, but it'd require a serious rework and would likely demand that the vast majority of options be priced at around 4-5 CP to address the increased power of those options and the fact that you generate these resources outside of rests.

Superiority Dice recharge at a short rest; the thing is that you have less. A Battlemaster gets 4 superiority dice at 3rd level, increasing to 5 at 7th level and to a maximum of 6 at 15th level. At those levels, a Monk has 3 Ki, 7 Ki and 15 Ki points, respectively (using this to compare both systems, BTW). Each maneuver costs 1 superiority dice.

At 3rd level, using the CP resource system, you get roughly 1-2 CP per round (3 if spending 1 Ki for Flurry of Blows, and all attacks hit). That CP remains until end of next turn, as long as you're not chaining with Unarmed Strikes; thus, assume that, since you're going for Unarmed Strikes every turn, you keep that CP. If each Battlemaster maneuver were to cost 4 CP, you'd be using those maneuvers once every 2 turns. Assuming a short rest every 2 battles (for convenience), a Battlemaster could use these abilities twice per battle on consecutive rounds, whereas an Iron Fist Monk would use it at most twice, or roughly once, every battle. On the other hand, once those two battles are up, the Iron Fist monk could use it more times, because the resource is generated via attacks, not a pool you start with. If they had a lower cost (let's say 3 CP: the 3 CP maneuvers are already non-damaging variants of Disarming Attack and Pushing/Trip Attack, after all, and the 4 CP ability to attack all enemies with an unarmed strike is far better than Sweeping Attack), there'd be little difference to be honest. At most, you'd be able to use one of the maneuvers on the second attack of your next turn.

At 7th level, the Battlemaster Fighter gets an extra use of its maneuvers each turn. The Iron Fist monk, on the other hand, generates up to 3 CP per round. The progression is largely equal, with the Battlemaster getting an extra maneuver every 2 battles, whereas the Iron Fist monk can only make 1 maneuver per round ONLY if it uses Flurry of Blows and all attacks hit, and only on the subsequent turn (charge up to 4 CP, load up ONE maneuver at any point during the next turn, then keep up the ante until you run out of Ki). At 3 CP cost, the Iron Fist monk could reliably do one maneuver per round, but only one. Just so you know: the 2 CP maneuver that does the super-shove? Far more reliable than Pushing Attack, even if the latter does a bit more damage, and you can do that every round with the current system. Having Pushing Attack cost 4 CP to do something worse is fundamentally wrong, even with the extra damage on tow. Having Pushing Attack cost 4 CP to do what your current maneuver list does with 2 or 3 CP kinda explains why I favor lower CP costs...if you intend to keep the CP system.

Using temporary Ki (as I explained above), each maneuver would cost between 1 and 2 Ki. With 1 Ki, you'd have a good chance at nova, with each attack essentially consuming the cost of the temporary Ki generated (since you can only spend that resource IF you hit; it's true both for Iron Fist attacks and Battlemaster's maneuvers that add the dice to damage and provide an effect), but you'd still be consuming regular Ki each turn, so the cost is roughly even. Consider the following: at 3rd level, you get 3 ki. Hit once, gain no temporary Ki, but spend 1 Ki for a Battlemaster maneuver. Spend another point of Ki for Flurry of Blows, hit with 2nd attack, gain 1 point of temporary Ki which is spent on another Battlemaster maneuver. Hit with 3rd attack, gain 1 point of temporary Ki, which is spent on a third Battlemaster maneuver. That's going nova, and you are left with 1 Ki left, and I was generous at having all three attacks hit. Next turn, have the first attack miss, and you're left with 1 Ki from the pool, which you might use for Flurry of Blows, or for a Maneuver if you're aiming to spend your Bonus Action to make a second attack instead, and that attack succeeds. Last turn, you're left with 0 Ki on your pool, which means you NEED to generate Temporary Ki to follow up with Flurry of Blows or maneuvers, but that temporary Ki will only last until the end of the next turn, so you can't reserve them. By 5th level, you could extend that combo for 2 turns, but only IF you don't use Stunning Strike, or use it once. By 11th level, on the other hand, you could reliably extend the combo for 3 turns, or barely for 2 turns if you eat all those resources on Stunning Strike; remember, as you essentially have the successful attack reimburse the cost of Ki spent on the maneuver, you're using your actual Ki pool to make Stunning Strikes. With each maneuver costing 2 Ki, you approach exactly the same amount of maneuvers used by a Fighter early on, and only very late (by 15th level, mostly) get to exceed it, but you have other uses for Ki as well. That also depends if the maneuver allows an attack in the first place: Commander's Strike sacrifices one of your attacks, Evasive Footwork is used while moving, Parry is used as a reaction (and so does Riposte),and Rally forces you to forego the bonus attacks from Martial Arts and/or Flurry of Blows. If the Iron Fist monk manages to get one of those (somehow...), that means you're not always reimbursing that Ki cost, or subsidizing it, enough for you to go nova, so you STILL need to save.

The trick with Battlemaster maneuvers is to gauge the cost correctly. Too much, and they become impractical; too little, and you can do crazy stuff with them. Ideally, 2 Ki or 3 CP seems the magic number.


Regarding Master, my logic for the CP generation was that since attacks feature a miss chance, and you can get one extra attack for free via Martial Arts, Flurry of Blows only really affords you .95-.5 CP for a Ki point. I wouldn't be averse to upping it to 5, but you definitely get less CP per FoB than 2.

As for the Martial Arts progression, the way I see it, what is a +1 average damage bump over a baseline Monk is not particularly strong, though yes, it does mess with the MA progression.

I hear you on the benefits being a little too diverse though. The component that seems truly problematic to me is the Ki to CP converter.

The thing is, you'd be burning your Ki pretty fast. At most, you'd be spending your whole Ki in 4 - 6 rounds (roughly 3 whole rounds per battle, or 2 rounds if you're ALSO using Deflect Blows), to get about 8 CP per round, enough for 2 big maneuvers or a combination of 3 maneuvers per turn. With FoB and Stunning Strike alone, you're looking at about 3 - 5 CP per turn, but you can keep that for 2 more rounds at best. That's about 8 to 18 maneuvers every 2 battles if burning your Ki for CP, versus 8 to 16 maneuvers every 2 battles if not. You could get less maneuvers, but save your Ki for stuff like Patient Defense if you'd like.

RE: Martial Arts damage - look at your 4 CP ability that guarantees a critical hit. You'd be dealing 2d12 instead of 2d10 damage. The average difference is 2 points, and with your current set-up, you could do that twice. Add the benefit from Savage Attacker to that (essentially Advantage in one of those guaranteed crits), and you're looking for a nicer increase every turn. Again, that's on average. But, I can agree that the overall increase is not as significant as, say, what you get from Ki Focus, but it happens to stack.


Ki Focus is essentially there to let the Monk's unarmed strikes compete with the +5 flaming pimpcanes of murderkill every other martial likely has by this point.

Not like the DM can't offer the Monk player a unique set of Handwraps that grant a +1, +2 or +3 increase to damage with unarmed strikes, plus a nice effect. Also: have you considered that, for example, your Ki Focus allows your Unarmed Strikes to gain the benefit of Vorpal Swords? Depending on how your DM reads the "guaranteed crit" effect (guaranteed crit means your attack is treated as if had rolled a natural 20), your Monk could kill one or two enemies per turn, period. That's mighty scary; at least all such weapons have the sane idea of restricting the effects to an actual natural 20.

Ki Focus is mostly there in case a weapon nobody can use has some utility. No one can use the Trident of Fish Command? Give it to the Monk, and it'll be able to do the cooler Aquaman stuff if it wants to. It's not exactly competition after all, since the DMG magic items aren't set in stone; if the DM doesn't make something tailor-made for your Monk as a reward, it's not trying enough.

[Sariel Vailo]

I like this

[Surrealistik]

@Sariel Vailo:

Thanks! Seems to be doing well on /u/Homebrew, but oddly has attracted little attention at /u/UnearthedArcana, which I suppose makes sense given the larger volume of content. I suppose I should post a breakdown of the CP numbers or just direct link it.

@Oskar:

There's a lot to address, but I'll reduce things to their essentials.

I think you totally underestimate how powerful Ki on an unarmed hit is in terms of letting you drop likely 1 stunning fist and flurry of blows on average each and every round. Assuming a 50% hit rate (and it's likely higher than this), you'll be pumping out an average of 2 Ki every turn, 2 Ki worth of effects, when you reach L5 (assuming you FoB every turn). Though I agree it's certainly convenient to tap into the existing Ki system, it's just too strong; this would set it head and shoulders above the other monk archetypes.

Concerning maneuvers powered by CP, CP generation is 0-3 (averaging 1-1.5 / turn assuming a 50% hit chance) prior to level 5, at which point the average CP generation is 1.5-2 turn. Most combats will last about 5 rounds. Combats in a typical adventuring day (according to the DMG) should be around 8-10, with 2 short rests. In general, even assuming a very conservative and low hit chance you should be getting off 2-4 Combo effects per combat; likely more given 60-70% hit rates are much more probable. With maneuvers, you can only drop 1-1.5 per combat; this is why I'm saying to make a CP option comparable to a maneuver's power you need a CP cost of 4-5.

Concerning the MA increase, even with the critical hit factored, that's still pretty anemic for an L17 feature.

Lastly, a core tenement of my design philosophy is that the player shouldn't rely explicitly on the DM's direct and exclusive intervention for anything to make an important element of his character work; at higher levels, unarmed simply doesn't work unless the DM does provide some kind of charity in a gray area of the rules with magical handwraps/gauntlets to enhance his unarmed strikes, hence the Ki Focus. It is however true and intended that the Ki Focus also grants some excellent versatility in the weapons a monk can utilize; this is what makes it really a true class feature as opposed to simply a crutch to compensate for the normal lack of access to magical weapons.

[JNAProductions]

Real quick, for your math, the average hit rate is 65%. Players usually hit on 8s.

[Rynjin]

I agree Deflect Blows is a bit too good. I'd make it require some kind of roll, an opposed attack roll or Acrobatics check to work. It's about 1.5x as effective as Uncanny Dodge in practice, so adding an extra layer of difficulty in using it seems a fair balance.

Peoples' concerns about Ki Focus allowing automatic Vorpal procs are unfounded; Vorpal swords specifically proc on a roll of natural 20 on the attack roll, not on a critical hit. A Champion could likewise not activate a Vorpal sword on an 18 or 19.

Master of the Iron Fist seems fine. Endgame none of the singular Combo Point effects are particularly useful, it's only the combination that makes them powerful. Getting an extra 6 CP makes the ability viable at 17-20.

Overall I like it.

[Surrealistik]

I agree Deflect Blows is a bit too good. I'd make it require some kind of roll, an opposed attack roll or Acrobatics check to work. It's about 1.5x as effective as Uncanny Dodge in practice, so adding an extra layer of difficulty in using it seems a fair balance.

Peoples' concerns about Ki Focus allowing automatic Vorpal procs are unfounded; Vorpal swords specifically proc on a roll of natural 20 on the attack roll, not on a critical hit. A Champion could likewise not activate a Vorpal sword on an 18 or 19.

Master of the Iron Fist seems fine. Endgame none of the singular Combo Point effects are particularly useful, it's only the combination that makes them powerful. Getting an extra 6 CP makes the ability viable at 17-20.

Overall I like it.

Thanks for the feedback Rynjin.

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention Vorpal.

I mean that requires both actually having a Vorpal weapon, and yes, as you've noted, actually rolling high enough to proc (whereupon you punch their ****ing head off, Mortal Kombat style, lol).

I do like the idea of an opposed attack roll to trigger the damage reduction; two things give me pause: one is more people than not saying the ability is fine, and the other is upholding a relative symmetry with Deflect Arrows.

I'd probably word it like this:

At 6th level, while you have at least one hand free, you can use your Reaction to deflect a melee attack roll made against you by a source you can see. When you do so, make a melee attack roll. If it equals or exceeds this attack roll made against you, the damage you take from the attack is reduced by 1d10 + your Dexterity modifier + your Monk level.
If you reduce the attack's damage to 0 in this way, the attack and its effects are negated against you and you can spend 1 Ki point or 4 Combo points to redirect it to another target within the attacker's reach, rerolling its attack and damage rolls. If that attack hits, you gain a Combo point.

[Rynjin]

I'd say "equals or exceeds" (it is essentially a saving throw by way of attack roll) but otherwise looks fine.

[Surrealistik]

I'd say "equals or exceeds" (it is essentially a saving throw by way of attack roll) but otherwise looks fine.

Yep, fixed.

Decreased the combo point cost by 1 to account for the reduced chance of success:

At 6th level, while you have at least one hand free, you can use your reaction to deflect a melee attack roll made against you by a source you can see. If you do so, make a melee attack roll. If its d20 roll is 20, or it equals or exceeds this attack roll made against you, the damage you take from the attack is reduced by 1d10 + your Dexterity modifier + your Monk level.

If you reduce the attack's damage to 0 in this way, the attack and its effects are negated against you and you can spend 1 Ki point or 3 Combo points to redirect it to another target within the attacker's reach, rerolling its attack and damage rolls. If that attack hits, you gain a Combo point.

[Sariel Vailo]

Aw yeah gonna make some diablo hand wepons now

[T.G. Oskar]

Peoples' concerns about Ki Focus allowing automatic Vorpal procs are unfounded; Vorpal swords specifically proc on a roll of natural 20 on the attack roll, not on a critical hit. A Champion could likewise not activate a Vorpal sword on an 18 or 19.

That was acknowledged: the wording is specific (Sword of Sharpness plays by the same rules, and also the Ring of Spell Turning in the case of nat 20 on a saving throw). However, it so happens that a nat 20 is a critical hit - only the Fighter activates a critical hit on a lower roll in official sources. Note what I mentioned: depending on the DM's reading on a "guaranteed crit" effect. If the DM makes the mistake of equating "guaranteed crit" as "treat the roll as if a natural 20", then a Monk using a Vorpal Sword gets to kill an enemy pretty much once per round. If it makes the reading as it does, then there's little issue, other than Advantage (you get 2 chances of rolling a 20, not one, which means it's more than a 5% chance of killing someone per hit; it's about a 9% chance actually). And, if you didn't notice that little bit, what's to make that a DM won't rule it that way, therefore making Vorpal even more dangerous for Monks while still passing over Fighters (not noticing that Fighters get Improved/Superior Critical in such a way to distinguish "critical hit" from "nat 20")?

It's a possibility, though as Surrealistik points out, it relies on DM decision. Shouldn't work as that by RAW, but 5e tries to be pretty lax with RAW anyways.

RE: Combo Points and Maneuvers - is the average CP generation considering the effect of Advantage? Remember - it only requires the Monk to hit, not anything else. Advantage isn't that difficult to acquire in the first place. I know you mentioned "the hit rate might be actually higher", and that intrinsically involves Advantage, but given the ubiquity of Advantage, it's fair to mention.

That said, Maneuvers as presented only have the extra damage as what makes them different to Combo Points. I can understand in a way what you mean - to equate what a Maneuver does, you need to combine a 2 CP effect (+1d6 to attack rolls) with a 3 CP effect, but an Iron Fist monk can only do one such effect each round, so if you consider it that way, if you often get about 2-4 CP each round, using your current system, you'll rarely get to do a maneuver effect twice per round, unless you save (in which case, it equates a Fighter using two maneuvers in the same turn). Streamlining it to maneuvers per se, but not exceeding that cost, makes it easier to understand and makes it a bit more future-proof, as there's an incentive to use already existing language rather than having the same effect done a bit more complex. I believe the big issue I have here, and the reason I suggested using the Maneuvers language (and also, why to use Ki instead of CP) is that you're sacrificing simplicity for balance, and 5e is big on simplicity.

Take the 2 CP option to push someone 10 ft. on a failed Strength saving throw, +10 ft. per CP spent. Add +1d6 to damage on a second attack, and that's like using Pushing Attack; hence, why you say a Maneuver would have to cost 4-5 CP to equate what the separate effects do. However, it implies hitting on two separate attacks, enabling one move once, then enabling the second move later. Pushing Attack is relatively simple (if you hit, spend Sup. Dice, add that to damage roll, then push 10 ft. on a failed Strength save), while this is still simple, but more complex than the maneuver's language (if you hit, spend 2 CP, add +1d6 damage; hit again, spend 2+ CP, push an enemy 10+ ft.) However, you then get the 3 CP ability that effectively does the same as Pushing Attack, but with the flexibility of adding Trip Attack as well. So, does Pushing Attack costs 4 CP (2 CP for damage, 2 CP for push) or 5 CP (2 CP for damage, 3 CP for shove), or is it that forcing a Strength saving throw makes it cheaper than forcing an opposed Strength (Athletics) check? With simpler language, that disparity is simplified - spend 4 CP, do Pushing Attack, but you deal a flat +1d6 rather than an increasing Superiority Dice worth of damage. Maneuvers are also a bit more varied, and you can, as with the Fighter's Martial Archetypes on UA, define which ones apply, and create more fitting ones.

As for temp Ki making it better than other Monk archetypes - you're dismissing the benefits of out-of-combat abilities vis-a-vis combat abilities. Shadow Monks get semi-free Invisibility, free teleportation, and their only additional uses of Ki involve out-of-combat abilities that still can make them solid in combat; compare to Iron Fist monks, who are awesome in combat but not as much outside of it. Or, take Open Hand - you can STILL spend 2 Ki per level, while getting three effects worth of abilities (Stunning Strike, FoB, then one of three effects that include knock prone, push or deny reactions as part of FoB), plus a plethora of other flexible abilities (self-heal, Sanctuary effect, instant-death ability for 4 Ki). What temp. Ki does is make the Iron Fist monk extremely sustainable in combat, but unless you add Maneuvers to the list (and given how temp. Ki works, you can't create a pool that extends after combat, so you're still gonna spend Ki for stuff like Empty Body after all), Iron Fist monks have little out-of-combat viability other than what every other Monk has. I don't mention 4 Elements Monk because they're considered one of the weaker archetypes by virtue of burning your Ki on pseudo-casting while giving very few new options overall; even Open Hand Monk is better if compared that way, so comparing it to Iron Fist monk is kinda unfair.

Put in your terms, and comparing it to the obvious reason you made the Archetype (you don't feel the Open Hand monk reflects your idea of Hong Kong flicks) - the Iron Fist monk with temporary Ki gets an average of 2 Ki per round, but spends 3 every round to do what an Open Fist monk usually does with 2, and that's without adding the extra damage. The Iron Fist monk will be superior to the Open Hand monk in combat, a given as it'll be able to burn more Ki than usual, but it doesn't have out-of-combat abilities that the Open Hand Monk does, so if anything, it'll edge the Open Hand monk mostly in combat. Now, let's say that you equate Deflect Blows with Wholeness of Body (a pool of 3x your level, compared to a reduction of 10-11 + monk level worth of damage every reaction, means Wholeness of Body is worth two uses of Deflect Blows, if not just one); that replaces WoB about 90% (actual HP healing means you can recover from environmental damage, or a failed save on a trap, and so forth, but its actual effect is minimal). Ki Focus is already better than the Sanctuary effect, and about the only thing Open Hand Monk has that it's pretty nice is Quivering Palm, which has a hefty Ki cost and requires an action (it does activate after a successful hit, and a failed save still does about 55 points of necrotic damage on average). Even with CP alone, as it stands, Iron Fist monk is an obvious choice; what temp. Ki does is make the Monk consider going nova with Stunning Strikes and Ki actions.

[zeek0]

Questions of balance are beyond me; it's all a bit complex.

My comment is about elegance. For a character to have multiple resources to manage feels... clunky.

Perhaps this would be best expressed as a variant to the existing Ki system. You could rip out the old one, and put in this one instead. Then it'd be much easier to balance and imagine.

I'm interested in your work because I'm soon to post my battle dancer base class (v.2) - it holds to some similar design ideas. Feel free to compare/steal ideas.

[Surrealistik]

@T.G. Oskar:

Any DM who would rule that Vorpal effects trigger on any crit is probably more rare than a DM that hands out Vorpal weapons in the first place; just keeping it real, haha.


Anyways, if a Monk has advantage, that further reinforces the points I'm making, because it means yet more Ki being generated which makes this prescription of change to Ki even more overpowered. Essentially, the more accurate you are, the more ridiculous Ki generation on unarmed strike hits gets.

Also, I think you may be confused on what you can actually do with combo points; you are allowed to do any number of the listed effects, with the only limitation that you can pick a given effect once per trigger unless it says otherwise. You could simultaneously increase damage and autocrit for example, or increase damage and get in an extra attack.

Finally, I just don't think that in totality the benefits of the other classes stacks up to 2, likely more, Ki generated a turn, nevermind the other class features. Even with their out of combat utility (and in the Open Hand's case it is very limited), it just wouldn't account for the in-combat monstrosity of having probably 3 Ki generated / turn, even without having the additional flexibility of maneuvers.

[Sariel Vailo]

Best part of this is the 1d12 at the end so here comes the giant fisssst.