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Shining Wrath
2017-06-21, 02:03 PM
There's an argument going about what build makes the best tank - so let's have some fun with this. You have until Friday morning to submit a build for a tank, which I'm going to define. Then through the weekend we'll let people vote for which build they think best meets the criteria. EDITED TO ALLOW POINT BUY. EDITED TO ALLOW CORRECT POINT BUY. EDITED TO MAKE ROOM FOR THE GIANT. EDIT TO CLARIFY REGARDING HP LOSS.

EDIT: Tucker's Kobolds. (http://www.tuckerskobolds.com/)

Limitations


Standard array OR 27 POINT BUY
PHB, EE, or Volo's races
PHB, EE, or SCAG backgrounds
Multi-class builds must meet ability score requirements
The character should be of level 10.
Unfortunately, you ran into a truly evil wizard who spammed Mordenkainen's Disjunction at your party, and no one has any magical items or weapons.


EDIT - BY POPULAR DEMAND, REST!
You may take exactly one short rest. Take it between any two encounters. Note when you take it, or if you do not take it.

I think not needing the short rest ought to count as a tie breaker when people are voting.

Selection Criteria
For purposes of the contest, a tank is a member of a party, and has a role to play within that party. That role is to prevent members of the party from losing hit points using whatever means are suitable for the tank's build, other than "kill all the enemies first", which is the role of the Striker. That's not to say that dealing damage is unimportant; a tank can't be someone that is easily ignored. For purity's sake, let me rule out the use of area effect magics to shut down the enemy, e.g., Stinking Cloud is not "tanking" as the term as usually used, although it's an effective technique.

To aid in judging, I propose that the tank be scored assuming 5 "standard" encounters before a rest of any sort is possible. The encounters are as follows (remembering this is a level 10 party). The other party members are a bard, a wizard, and a cleric; your build should not depend on these characters being of any particular archetype. By supplying specific encounters, I'm trying to avoid white room theorycrafting. If you think my encounters are biased, let me know. During the encounters, you control only the tank; the rest of the party is played by stubborn people who just won't listen to you now matter how much sense you make (if you frequent these fora, you ought to be accustomed to that :smallsmile:). I abstract this out by just assigning a certain amount of damage per round dealt to the monster(s) by the actions of the rest of the party. You may assume a certain amount of common sense; the wizard will hang back and cast spells rather than drawing dagger and getting in a fire giant's face, and so on.

Describe for each encounter how your tank minimizes the damage absorbed by the party in total. Temporary hit points lost don't count against your score but if you have to expend a resource to generate them it should be noted. If you can recover HP during combat (yours or a teammate) that reduces HP losses for the team, but again any resources expended need to be noted.

We don't have Dragonfire Adepts / Dragon Shamans with Aura of Vitality in 5e :smallbiggrin:

Enchanter with Fire Giant bodyguard
HP: Enchanter has 56, fire giant has 162.
Terrain: The party enters at one end of a 100' long 15' wide hallway, with the giant interposed between them and the level 9 enchanter.
Tactics: The enchanter will attempt to use Dominate Person on the tank and turn them against the rest of the party. If the tank is not dominated, the enchanter will use Evard's Black Tentacles on those engaging the giant. If that proves ineffective, the enchanter will attempt Confusion on the tank.
The giant will throw rocks at the party wizard until engaged in melee. Once engaged, the giant will focus on eliminating the tank, unless the tank is confused, at which point the giant will attempt to move down the hallway to engage the rest of the party.
Timing: the other members of the party will fire upon the enchanter first (kill the caster!) but the giant is obviously in the way and they can only manage 20 HP / round. Unless the tank helps somehow, the enchanter will last 3 rounds. At this point they will fire upon the giant, adding 30 HP / round to whatever the tank is doing.

Judging for this encounter rests upon keeping the total damage absorbed by the party to a minimum. That means first and foremost making the save against Dominate Person, because a tank who runs back and attempts to kill the wizard is a failure at tanking.

Tucker's Kobold's
HP: infinite. For purposes of this encounter there are an infinite number of kobolds; the little guys just keep coming. Some of them can use magic.
Terrain: a kobold warren. Lots of twisty little tunnels, some of which are all alike and some of which are all different. Scattered among the tunnels are a very large number of holes / portals through which nasty things can be thrown / fired / dropped / cast / etc.
Tactics: Every round, every member of the party takes one or more ranged or spell attacks - alchemist's fire, crossbows, sling stones, dropped bags of scorpions, nets, spells attacking all 3 of the common saves [Dexterity, Constitution, Wisdom]. .... There is no way for the tank to physically prevent these attacks against themselves or the rest.
Timing: Run. Run as fast as you can. Which isn't very fast because the tunnels are twisty and little, counting as difficult terrain. The distance to travel is 150 feet; the rest of the party can all manage 30 feet a round unless the tank slows them down. Yes, if your build features a race with a speed of 25 you take one extra round.

Judging for this encounter rests upon keeping the total damage absorbed by the party to a minimum. Assume the kobolds are smart enough that if the tank is, e.g., resistant to crossbow bolts they'll fire crossbows at someone else and instead use spells or scorpions or what have you on the tank. Spells or auras that help other party members make saving throws, class features that let the tank block attacks at nearby allies, and so on can be used.

Chain Devil
HP:85
Terrain: A 30' x 30' room with a Darkness spell permanently cast in the center. For purposes of conflict with Light spells or Dispel Magic, the darkness spell was cast with a 7th level slot. In each corner is anchored a 10' long chain. The devil animates the chains the first round of combat. The party may not even realize the devil is there unless someone moves near the darkness - the chains might draw their attention.
Tactics: the devil will attempt to stay within the darkness, where it can see and the party cannot. The devil is an intelligent fighter (devilishly cunning, in fact) and will attempt to target the wizard first and the bard second with chain attacks, both animated and carried by the devil. The devil will shove a grappled victim into a corner to be seized by a chain if that seems advantageous.
Timing: It's pretty difficult to fight a devil in the darkness, and the devil has resistance against non-magical weapons and magic. The party manages 20 HP per round somehow, so the devil lasts 5 rounds unless the tank does some damage.

Judging for this encounter rests upon keeping the total damage absorbed by the party to a minimum. This means finding the devil in the darkness and forcing them to attack you, not the squishy people. Ability to do significant damage to the devil is obviously a plus, but you've got to find them. Ability to grapple the devil and drag them into the light doubles the damage done by the rest of the party.

T-Rex
HP: 136
Terrain: A 75' by 75' room, the dinosaur is in the center of the room when the party enters.
Tactics: Ready for a straight-up fight? Here you go! T-Rex will attack the nearest party members each round, choosing randomly among ties. It is smart enough to maneuver so that it can use both the bite and the tail each round and that breaks ties when choosing how to move. If it grapples someone it will attempt to bite them every round until the victim dies or the T-Rex does.
Timing: The rest of the party does 40 HP per round. T-Rex lasts 4 rounds unless the tank does some damage.

Judging for this encounter rests upon keeping the total damage absorbed by the party to a minimum. That means getting T-Rex to attack the person with either the highest AC or the highest damage resistance.

Flying Monkeys
HP: 19 each for 12 monkeys. Use the "ape" statistics, but give the flying monkey a fly speed of 40 feet. Note that if a Beastmaster Ranger with a canine companion happened along, the flying monkeys would get the ranger, and her little dog, too.
Terrain: A 100' by 100' room with a high ceiling. There are lots of fist sized rocks scattered in the room, making the floor difficult terrain. The party enters in one corner, and the monkeys start in the opposite corner.
Tactics: The monkeys will throw rocks in an attempt to soften up the party as they close with them, and then will attempt to grapple - two or three per party member. If two monkeys successfully grapple a victim they will fly straight up and drop their target directly on top of another person, doing 4d10 to the person dropped and also 4d10 to the person on the ground, unless that person makes a DC 12 Dexterity save to avoid their falling comrade. The monkeys will prefer to grapple physically weaker targets and are smart enough to guess who that might be.
Timing: The rest of the party will do 50 HP of damage per round, so the monkeys won't last long.

Judging for this encounter rests upon keeping the total damage absorbed by the party to a minimum. That means preventing grapple attacks. The best way to do that is to kill monkeys.

And ... go!

DivisibleByZero
2017-06-21, 02:13 PM
If you think my encounters are biased, let me know.
Biased? I can't speak to that. But I can say that limiting to standard array and having only ranged characters in the party (if we can't rely on any particular subclasses for them, then we have to assume they're all ranged casters) limits the possible builds.

VHuman stereotypical Barb/Fighter/Pally tank or Half-Elf Paladin or Sorcadin is probably going to win the day here because of the stipulations you've set.

EdenIndustries
2017-06-21, 02:49 PM
...
The other party members are a bard, a wizard, and a cleric;
...
The devil is an intelligent fighter (devilishly cunning, in fact) and will attempt to target the wizard first and the rogue second with chain attacks


Just a quick note - you probably meant a different class besides rogue in the fight with the devil?

Shining Wrath
2017-06-21, 02:51 PM
Just a quick note - you probably meant a different class besides rogue in the fight with the devil?

Bard was intended.

Specter
2017-06-21, 02:55 PM
This is a nerfed version of the build I posted, but anyway, here's The King's Defender:

Half-Elf Crown Paladin 10
ST18, DX10, CO14, IN8, WI12, CH16
HP82, AC19
Saves: 7, 3, 5, 2, 7, 10
Fighting Style: Defense
Weapon of choice: Halberd
Feat: Sentinel
Background: Sailor (not sure why it matters but...)

From race (what matters):
Fey Ancestry
Darkvision

From class:
Divine Sense
Lay on Hands (45HP)
Divine Smite
Spellcasting
Fighting Style
Divine Health
Channel Divinity: Champion's Challenge (I wouldn't even use the other one)
ASI: +2ST
Extra Attack
Aura of Protection
Divine Allegiance
Feat: Sentinel
Aura of Courage

Spells prepared:
1: divine favor, heroism, searing smite, shield of faith, (command, compelled duel)
2: magic weapon, protection from poison, (warding bond, zone of truth)
3: blinding smite, dispel magic, elemental weapon, magic circle, (aura of vitality, spirit guardians)

Corran
2017-06-21, 03:01 PM
Standard array is putting me off (too restrictive for my taste).
Not sure if I'll have something ready by Friday, standard array or not, but I would like to see point buy included (just a matter of personal preference I suppose; if you dont want to change the rules, it's all well and good).

ps: It would be very beneficial if people included a paragraph analyzing how their build behaves in combat and what is exected to do. Makes things much clearer, as far as if something is actually good, or just good on paper.

Edit: 5 encounters without any rest of any sort might shift the scales considerably.

Shining Wrath
2017-06-21, 03:43 PM
Standard array is putting me off (too restrictive for my taste).
Not sure if I'll have something ready by Friday, standard array or not, but I would like to see point buy included (just a matter of personal preference I suppose; if you dont want to change the rules, it's all well and good).

ps: It would be very beneficial if people included a paragraph analyzing how their build behaves in combat and what is exected to do. Makes things much clearer, as far as if something is actually good, or just good on paper.

Edit: 5 encounters without any rest of any sort might shift the scales considerably.

Exactly. It forces you to consider resources like ki, spell slots, and so on. The Eldritch Knight is a great tank so long as the slots for Shield last. After that, less so.

Specter: how would your build act in each of the encounters (if it's not obvious)?

Corran
2017-06-21, 03:49 PM
Exactly. It forces you to consider resources like ki, spell slots, and so on. The Eldritch Knight is a great tank so long as the slots for Shield last. After that, less so.
Well, agreed in principle, I just think the ratio is not the best one we could use. Kind of thinking that a short rest should be put somewhere inside that series of encounters.
(I am not interested in debating the rules you set, if you leave it as it is, I'll probably focus on building sth with these rules in mind. I just think that the rule about rests would maybe hurt builds that rely on short rest mechanics, is all. But that's a quick thought and I might be wrong).

Btw, I assume UA is not included, but I dont think I saw it anywhere mentioned (maybe I missed it?), so just want to clarify that.

MaxWilson
2017-06-21, 03:52 PM
Enchanter with Fire Giant bodyguard
HP: Enchanter has 56, fire giant has 162.
Terrain: The party enters at one end of a 100' long 10' wide hallway, with the giant interposed between them and the level 9 enchanter.

In a 10' wide hallway, the Huge Fire Giant will be at disadvantage on all of its attacks. (Per Squeezing Into Smaller Spaces in the PHB.) Are you sure you didn't mean to make it a 15' wide hallway?

polymphus
2017-06-21, 04:41 PM
Sure I'll bite. Not clear why there's a background restriction -- did you mean archetype?

Can't Touch This
Wood Elf Monk
Way of the Long Death

Feats: Athlete (+1 DEX) Mobile

STR: 10
DEX: 18 (points-buy 15, +2 for wood elf, +1 for athlete)
CON: 13
INT: 10
WIS: 16 (points-buy 15, +1 for wood elf)
CHA: 8

AC17 and decent regenerating HP are all fine and good, but you're overlooking this guy's real tank strength: he's impossible to lock down and he can always be in the right place at the right time. I find the issue with a lot of tanks is that they get swamped, then they're stuck in place. That lets little fast guys just ignore you entirely while they tear your squishy folks to pieces.

This guy cannot be ignored. He's mobile, he's hard hitting, he's constantly generating temporary HP, and in a pinch he can fire off an AoE frighten to get some space.

MaxWilson
2017-06-21, 04:56 PM
This guy cannot be ignored. He's mobile, he's hard hitting, he's constantly generating temporary HP, and in a pinch he can fire off an AoE frighten to get some space.

That raises an interesting issue. For purposes of the contest, do losses to temp HP count as "HP lost by the party"?

How about HP that are lost and then healed, e.g. via Lay on Hands or Aura of Vitality?

Corran
2017-06-21, 05:05 PM
That raises an interesting issue. For purposes of the contest, do losses to temp HP count as "HP lost by the party"?

How about HP that are lost and then healed, e.g. via Lay on Hands or Aura of Vitality?
Hey Max, are you working on a devotion paly too? :smallwink:

ps: Big thanks to the op for this thread. A most creative challenge! Will try to have my character build ready by tomorrow (beware the Lady Pest! :smallsmile:).

Edit: It would be nice if people headlined their builds with big size letters (preferably using a made up name or nickname for them), so that people can spot them more easily. Just a suggestion.

Shining Wrath
2017-06-21, 05:06 PM
That raises an interesting issue. For purposes of the contest, do losses to temp HP count as "HP lost by the party"?

How about HP that are lost and then healed, e.g. via Lay on Hands or Aura of Vitality?

Edited OP.

Losing temporary HP doesn't count, and regaining HP is good. However, if you need to expend resources to accomplish these things, that should be noted.

Finger6842
2017-06-21, 05:09 PM
Because I have a sense of humor - Best Tank = Lore Bard
Std Array = Str 8, Dex 15, Con 13, Wis 10, Int 12, Cha 14 -->
Half Elf = Str 8, Dex 16, Con 14, Wis 10, Int 12, Cha 16 -->
2 ASI = Str 8, Dex 18, Con 14, Wis 10, Int 12, Cha 18
LVL10 Half-Elf Lore Bard AC unknown since we're naked right?

Enchanter with Fire Giant bodyguard
Move into range (Advantage against charm spells-Half Elf should I NOT have advantage), Cast Fear on the Fire Giant, Giant will turn and move through the Enchanter likely disrupting his spell and possibly causing charging damage/knockdown. Banishing Smite on the Enchanter as a bonus action (5d10 Force Damage + Banishment (assuming he's not already dead)). Party can now do considerably more than 20 damage. No damage turns absorbed. Plant growth the hallway to create difficult terrain (not allowed, sigh) + Heat Metal on the breastplate in case the giant saves. Once Giant is dead release the banish concentration and counterspell the Enchanter while party kills it. 0 party damage.
Tucker's Kobold's
Well, In a real game I would cast invisibility (5th level) to Invis the whole party and carefully walk out without fighting (0 party damage. ASSUMING we had already been discovered in this gauntlet I would cast Shatter to clear anything in front of us 4 times plus AOE heal, both of which violate the no AOE limits. Under these limitations I would need to cast wall of force above us to prevent any damage coming in from that direction and cast Seeming on all creatures in LOS (at the most dense) to make them appear to be more party members, reducing the damage again but still maybe outside the rules. So instead I cast major image "Beholder" and have it lead the way, terrifying all the Kobolds. Dare I say? 0 party damage.
Chain Devil
It's cheating a bit to cast a 7th level darkness spell when no 10th level has spells available above 5th. Still, I Banishing Smite him which breaks concentration on the darkness spell then cast Wall of Force, breaking concentration and summoning him back, The wall prevents him from hitting us with the chains while the party kills him, 0 party damage.
T-Rex
Cast Fear, save unlikely since, lets face it, T-rex has no wisdom. DPS, recast Fear as necessary. 0 party damage.
Flying Monkeys
You guessed it, Wall of Force over our heads angling down to the floor, Monkeys have to come in the front past me to get to my party and can't hit me with ranged items. Monkeys come down single we kill em, monkeys come down enmasse I cast shatter and we kill em. I'm sorry, by the rules I can't AOE, the Wizard casts fireball/lighting bolt killing everything in the room (except us). 0 party damage.

All of this assumes you didn't mean all the encounters happen with no rest in between.

MaxWilson
2017-06-21, 05:35 PM
Hey Max, are you working on a devotion paly too? :smallwink:

I'm thinking about it. Depending on whether or not healing counts, I'm considering Paladin 9/Sorc 1 [Lucky, Warcaster, +2 Cha]. It's probably not quite "optimal" for the challenge, but it's a character I would actually play for real, so I'm kind of interested in thinking through optimal tactics for the build.

Edit: okay, having seen the edits to the OP, here's my build. I'll post tactics for it later but might as well get the build on the record:

Cranduin the Least, son of Cranduin [Well-meaning but emotional and impulsive, and just a bit dense. He inherited his father's beefy stature and physical stamina but not his father's calm and generous temperament. Still, he tries to live up to his ideals, and he is quick to apologize to those whom he has wronged. Spends his off days in the poor quarter Mending pots, pans, and clothing.]

Noble LG human Paladin of Devotion 9/Wild Sorcerer 1
Str 16 (15) Dex 8 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 8 Cha 18 (15) HP 82 AC 21 [Defense style]
Feats: 0/Lucky, P4/+2 Cha, P8/Warcaster
Skills: Athletics, Perception, Stealth, History, Persuasion
Spell points: 27 [or 4/3/2 if slots]
Sorcerer spells: Shield, Expeditious Retreat, Booming Blade, Mold Earth, Thunderclap, Mending
Paladin spells prepared: Wrathful Smite, Shield of Faith, Thunderous Smite, Find Steed, Aid, Aura of Vitality, Bless, Heroism

Tactical sketch:

General: Summoned warhorse in advance. I will negate any critical hits against me with Lucky unless they are from a small monster like a monkey/ape/kobold. Opportunity attacks will be made with Booming Blade + longsword for 4d8+3 (21) total damage. I try to always stay close enough to enemies that any bad Wild Surges (Fireball, Confusion, etc.) will always hurt the enemy more than my fellow PCs.

Fire Giant & Enchanter: riding warhorse when the encounter starts, but will get off the warhorse to tank the Fire Giant. (Warhorse can Dash full length of 100' corridor first, to right in front of wherever the giant is, then I get off with 15' of my movement and have 15' personal movement left.) Warhorse will remain slightly behind (10') to prevent Fire Giant from simply overrunning the paladin with its Huge size--instead the Fire Giant has to engage the paladin. (I know the OP said the Fire Giant would do this anyway, but if I were a sneaky DM I'd just eat the opportunity attack and kill the squishies--this way the Fire Giant doens't have that option.) Then, simply Dodge on round 1 and cast Sanctuary on self, shielding if necessary, to buy time for allies to kill enemies with ranged attacks. Immune to Dominate Person due to devotion aura; Enchanter cannot target allies with Dominate Person because they're still 70' to 90' away (depending on where the Fire Giant is) and Dominate Person has only 60' range, so even if Sanctuary forces the Enchanter to shift targets, allies are not in danger. Fire Giant has +2 to Will saves, vs. DC 16 Sanctuary, wastes 65% of all attacks. Of the attacks that do get through, 70% of them miss completely, and another 21% force me to use a Shield. On average, the Fire Giant will do 1.8 HP of damage to me per round; I'll use Shield spells at a rate of about 1 Shield per five rounds.

I can't do much about the Evard's Black Tentacles from the Enchanter if he targets my buddies, but if the Enchanter moves on to target me with Confusion I am highly resistant (+7 to Wisdom saves--I won't use Luck against Confusion though). Besides, Evard's Black Tentacles/Confusion won't last long with all the concentration saves the Enchanter will be making against my buddies' damage.

If Evard's Black Tentacles targets me, I will use Tides of Chaos to have advantage on the Dex save against it. If necessary, I will also use Lucky. I will then withdraw backwards out of the area of the tentacles (and encourage my warhorse to do the same) even if I have to take an opportunity attack to do so. (Obviously if I can move forward instead, I will, but I'm presuming that I'm 5' from the Fire Giant already with no room to move sideways out of the tentacles.)

Tucker's Kobolds: I will run like crazy for the exit while urging other PCs to hop on my warhorse and get out faster. My aura will help some (for those who can't ride out on my warhorse), but my real main tactic simply that I have up to 185 HP of healing to spend on other PCs (Aura of Vitality x2, 45 HP of Lay On Hands). The challenge doesn't say at what rate kobolds do damage so it's hard to say how much it will deplete my reserves, but I'm pretty confident that post-hoc healing is at least as efficient as any other tactic I could take under the circumstances.

Chain Devil: run up and Grapple the chain devil (62% chance of success per attempt, two attempts per round) and Shove him prone if I have an attack left over after. If the first-round grapple succeeds, drag him out into the light using Expeditious Retreat if necessary; if not necessary, cast Shield of Faith. On subsequent rounds, hang on to him and Dodge (since he's in the light) unless he's already prone; if he's prone, beat him to death with my shield, Shielding as necessary. If the initial grapple attempts both fail (40% chance), cast Wrathful Smite to enhance my opportunity attack, then repeat grapple attempts as necessary. Negating the Darkness advantage by dragging him into the light, and putting him at a disadvantage by getting him prone, are the Priority 1 of this combat. I can hope that my buddies are smart enough to stay out of reach of the chains (since there's a good 50% of the room the chains can't even reach) but if I absolutely have to I can either drag the chain devil over to the chain in question and Shove my buddy away from the chain with my shield, or else nova on the chain devil (if it's already badly damaged) by beating it to death with my shield, Diving Smiting with 1st or 2nd level slots until it's dead. I would really prefer to avoid Divine Smite though.

If Tides of Chaos is available, I will use it to gain advantage on my Athletic contests vs. the chain devil.

T-Rex: I spur my trusty warhorse so that I get up in the T-Rex's face (so I am closest), hop off and close the last 15' of distance on my own two feet (so no one else is in range), cast Sanctuary and Dodge each round. Easy-peasey. 70% of its attacks get wasted by Sanctuary, and 75% more miss. It will be lucky to make me waste a single Shield spell, and it has only a 2% chance per round of actually HITTING me through the Shield spell. Expected damage to me after 4 rounds: 2.56 HP, and one 1st level spell slot (Sanctuary).

Flying Monkeys: I shoot Fire Bolts until the monkeys get into melee range, then I wade into the thickest clumps and detonate my Thunderclap spell repeatedly to try to kill and/or scare off monkeys, while using my Booming Blade opportunity attack to finish off others. (Yes, I realize I could kill them faster using Divine Smite since this is the last combat of the day, but I won't do that because I wouldn't really know that it will be the last.) If there are fewer than three monkeys in a clump I rely on Booming Blade instead; and if someone is surrounded by monkeys I may Sanctuary them. Also, I try to keep my fellow PCs clumped together in order to both (1) minimize the number of monkeys that can grapple us simultaneously, (2) maximize my Thunderclap damage, and (3) maximize my fellow PCs' Dex bonus when another PC gets dropped on them.

Finally, I heal up the party as best I can with the remains of my 185 HP of healing. I look forward to 12th level, when my healing capacity will jump to 615 HP of healing per day (Paladin 9/Wild Sorc 3).

Note: I have a number of spells that don't really come into play in the presented scenarios. E.g. I never even use Bless or Aid or Thunderous Smite. Fear not, they will come in handy in other tanky scenarios. Cranduin the Least is a generalist tank, not custom-tailored for this challenge.

Finger6842
2017-06-21, 05:39 PM
Did I miss something? No one is indicating what actions their "best tank" will take for each encounter, I thought that was the whole point?

Corran
2017-06-21, 07:57 PM
Lady Pest

Race: Human (variant); +1 DEX, +1 CHA, skill (acrobatics), feat (resilient con)
Class: Paladin (devotion), lvl 10

Point buy
STR 8, DEX 15, CON 15, INT 8, WIS 8, CHA 15

Feats/ASI's: Resilient CON, +2 CHA, Lucky

Stats @ level 10
STR 8
DEX 16
CON 16
INT 8
WIS 8
CHA 18

HP: 94

AC: 20 (halfplate + shield + defense)

Longsword/ Longbow: +7; d8+3 (2 attacks)

Saves: STR (+3), DEX (+7), CON (+11), INT (+3), WIS (+7), CHA (+12)

Skills: Acrobatics (+7)

Speed: 30 feet

Initiative: +3

Languages: Common, Giant

Spells prepared
Level 1: protection from good and evil*, Sanctuary*, wrathful smite, cure wounds, shield of faith
Level 2: lesser restoration*, zone of truth*, aid
Level 3: beacon of hope*, dispel magic*, aura of vitality, revivify
(these should be enough, have room for 3 more prepared spells)

Spell slots: 4 - 3 - 2

Spell DC: 16


Tactics

1) Against the enchanter and his fire giant bodyguard
Lady Pest will engage the fire giant as fast as she can (dashing if she has to). When she is in striking distance (within 30 feet of the fire giant), she will use her bonus action to cast wrathful smite and she will follow that up with 2 attacks against the giant (casting warthful smite on the same turn she attacks the giant, to potentially avoid unnecessary concentration checks). Assuming she hits at least once (75%), then the fire giant will get to save against wrathful smite (35% chance for the giant to save). If the giant saves, lady Pest will try this again at the first opportune moment. And again, and again (using all her 1st level slots but one, if needs be -she will count a lot on fearing the giant, targeting his second worse save -ie wis-). Once wrathful smite finally sticks (65% with her first attempt, 87.75% by her second attempt, 95.8125% by her third attempt), the giant will have a chance to recover from it at a 12.25% per round, and only if he spends his action. While under the effects of wrathful smite, the fire giant will have disadvantage on all his attacks, so his hit chance against lady Pest will be reduced to 42.25% per attack. Lady Pest will try at all cost to keep up her concentration on wrathful smite (+11 on concentration checks, using lucky rolls if she has to -if the giant is low on hp she will not use a lucky roll; same if the giant is under 1/3 hp and the party has taken care of the enchanter). Her plan is to last long enough against the giant (that means dodging if wrathful smite drops or if it never sticks), for her party to mop up the enchanter, and later helping her take out the giant. If lady Pest is pressed hard in this encounter (which is very likely), she will use her lay on hands on herself, preferably in one go (so when she is down to 44 hit points or less; or thereabout).

Against the enchanter, she will try to hide her smug face when he targets her with dominate person (aura of devotion), and she will try to save with a +7 against evards and against confusion. If she fails her save against evards and the giant plays before her, she will use a lucky roll for a second attempt to save. If she fails her save against evards and she plays before the giant, she will not use a lucky roll, and instead she will use dispel magic on her turn (using a lucky roll there, if needed). If she succeds her save against evards (and not knowing that the enchanter will drop his concentration on it to cast dominate person next round), she will move 5 feet back (no OA, as she did not exit the reach of the fire giant), and she will cast command on the fire giant to approach her (no direct harm, so the command is legit). The command to approach supersees the fear effect regarding moving closer, as far as I understand the rules (asked about this recently on the RAW thread and that was the answer I got anyway). She will do that since she can deal far better than the giant against the dex save forced by evard's black tentacles, and because spending an action to break free from evard's is something that the giant is likely to have to do more often than her (worse dex saves) and because 'losing an action' costs the giant more than it costs her.

This encounter will be rather difficult for lady Pest, and she may be forced to spend lot of resources for it, especially if she is unlucky (she is well prepared to go head on against the fire giant though, and she is also geared well against the enchanter too, so if the dice gods dont intervene against her, I expect her to do reasonably well, ie not dropping unconscious until her allies save the day). Whatever happens, she will not use all her 1st level spell slots (unless she is unlucky with wrathful smite and she has to cast command (unlikley), and she will also not use all of her lucky rolls (she will keep at least one 1st level slot and one lucky roll for later usage; but hopefully it wont come to that much resource expenditure, though she is expected to use a good amount of her resources in this encounter). Her lay on hands is expected to be used during that combat (all in one go most likely). There is a small chance (depending on if she saves against evards and on the initiative order), that she will use a 3rd level slot with dispel magic (lets hope she doesn't have to and that her dex save of +7 -with a lucky reroll to back it up- wont fail her), as 3rd level slots are important and her plan is to use them with aura of vitality in the next encounter.

ps: Lady Pest will snap at the bard for not using illusions against the fire giant and for not counterspelling the enchanter...


2) Against the infinite kobolds
Lady Pest will use aura of vitality to keep her allies (and her if needed) up and running (also to bring back any unconscious ally, if it comes to that). These heals use a bonus action, so she will have her action to dash as necessary. After debating myself, I decided that using sanctuary is not a good idea for this encounter, as it will cost a bonus heal, and it will only (in case it works) redirect some damage, when lady Pest can use aura of vitality as needed to heal the ones that need it the most. Ie, sanctuary is a trap option for this battle (keeping in mind the kobolds' tactics; it would be a good option if the kobolds focused fire though). Assuming group initiative, lady Pest will try to keep everyone (of her allies) within 10 feet of her, to make them profit from her auras (+4 on saves that will be targeted as per the battleplan). Holding on to her concentration on aura of vitaility wont be a problem (with her +11 con saves), so that means that after the enounter is over she will get to keep healing for an additional 5 rounds whomever needs it the most (to help the cleric with his resource management).

Edit: Lady Pest is on dash behind her group (ie 15 feet due to difficult terrain), so it will take her 1 extra round to get out, but I think it is worth spending an action on aura of vitality so that none of her allies drop unconscious (hopefully) and so they can all keep moving. If lady Pest was at least 5 feet ahead of the group when (group) initiative is rolled, she will still get to help her allies with their saves due to aura of protection, despite the wasted action on AoV.

ps: Lady Pest will make her allies swear to never tell that she ran away from a fight!

Short rest: Lady Pest does not count on short rests to gain back any resources spent so far, but probably this would be a good point for her and the group to have a short rest, if not for anything else, just to get some HP back by spending hit dice.

3) Against the Chain Devil
Assuming the chain devil does not attack until someones approaches: Entering the room with the darkness spell cast at its center, Lady Pest will use her divine sense -reasonable enough imo- to see if she picks up anything (surprise surprise! She does). She will use a 1st level spell slot to cast protection from evil on her (assuming combat has not yet started). Then she will use her channel divinity, sacred weapon, and she will charge into the darkness, negating it with the light coming from her gleaming sword (the light produced by sacred weapon negates magical darkness, of whatever level, since it is a magical light that does not come from a spell).

Assuming the battle starts the moment the group enters the room: Then lady Pest will use her action with sacred weapon and her bonus action with shield of faith, and she will engage the fiend in melee, following up with attacks on sebsequent rounds.
--------------------------

Surprisingly, lady Pest will NOT use any smites, unless she happens to crit!

Her plan is to fight it out the long way (in a relative sense, since the group damage output will double iteslef with the darkness supressed). With her attack bonus at +11 (due to sacred weapon), that places her hit chance against the fiend at 80% per attack. And with either protection from evil or shield of faith, that puts the fiend's hit chance against her at either 20.25% or at 35% (depending which spell she is concentrating on). Yep, she will NOT spend fuel to smite to rush this fight. Also, with sacred weapon, her longsword counts as magical for the purpose of bypassing resistances against non-magical weapons, like the ones the chained devil has.

A detail about positioning:
Once the darkness is supressed by the light from sacred weapon, the chain devil will be able to use his reaction to frighten the group (since the group will be able to see him). Lady Pest will try to counter this with her aura of courage and with positioning herself tactically during the first round:

If the fiend is within 30 feet when lady Pest activates sacred weapon, then lady Pest will not use her movement to close in on him until her second turn (she cant attack during her first turn anyway, due to casting sacred weapon). That is so she will be within 10 feet of her allies to share her aura of courage that will protect them from the fiend's unnerving mask (fear effect). If the fiend it further than 30 feet, then she will likely use her movement on her first turn to close that distance enough so that she will be able to strike on her next turn (ie turn 2), while also remaining in an advanced position that is still within 10 feet of her allies who stand behind her (if they are within 30 feet of the chain devil). The room's dimensions allow for this as far as I can tell.

ps: Lady Pest will be sad she did not level up before facing this enemy... (IDS)

4) Against the T-REX
Simple enemy, simple plan. Lady Pest will use wrathful smite against the beast and she will ''intereject'' herself between the beast and her allies (even taking an OA if she has to). Meaning, that since grid play allows for technicalities that go against common logic, and assuming the DM embraces those tecnicallities, then lady Pest will try to position herself in a way so that the distance between her and the rest of the party is such that it will deny the T-REX from engaging anyone by simply circling around lady Pest. That will probably cost us an OA but so be it; it will be the last attack the T-REX will probably make during this encounter (assuming no ally of hers chooses to engage the best in melee). The trick is to position lady Pest in such a way, so that she is further away from the T-Rex than from any of her allies; this way the T-Rex wont manage to engage anyone, as long as it is frightened.

All depends on wrathful smite sticking (70% per try), and so she will use even a 2nd level slot if she has to (preferably a 1st if there are any left, definitely not a 3rd if there are any left). If wrathful smite does not stick with her first attempt (30% for that to be the case), then she will try it once more (only @9% wrathful smite wont have sticked after two attempts at it). Once it sticks, the beast will have to spend its action (which it will do, since it wont be able to engage anyone in melee), and to get rid of the fear effect its chance will lie at 9% per round. All in all, this is predicted to be a relatively easy encounter, with lady Pest ensuring battlefield control andletting her ranged allies and herself (don off the shield, bring out the longbow, and join the group dealing damage from a safe distance) to bring down the beast from a range with impunity. It would take for some very messed up rolls for this encounter to cause any sort of problems.

Now, if an ally decides to engage the beast in melee, despite how unnecessary and idiotic that would be if wrathful smite has sticked on the T-REX (let's face it, if anyone does that, it's going to be the cleric), then lady Pest will just have to engage in melee (assuming there was no time for her to don off her shield and take out her longbow). Lady Pest can heal and cure diseases, but she can't cure stupidity...

ps: Lady Pest will take one of the beast's teeth as a trophy!

5) Against the flying monkeys
Ok, if there are any 2nd level spell slots left, now is the time to use them with aid. If there is at least one 3rd level spell slot left, it will be used with aura of vitality (depending on if we had to use dispel magic or not at the very first encounter, against the enchanter's evard spell -a crucial moment in time that one was). In all likelihood, there are not any 1st level spell slots left (and if there were, they were used with smites against the chained devil, leaving one 1st level slot to be used with wrathful smite against the T-REX). The availability of 1st level slots again depends on the very first encounter (enchanter and fire giant), and on how quickly wrathful smite sticked against the fire giant. Same goes with any lucky rolls left (possible).

The plan is to activate aura of vitality as the monkeys close in on her and the party, use bonus action with heals, and try to act as cover to the squishier (AC-wise) ally of hers, until the monkeys close in for her to attack them (at times like this, I hate how droping/equiping a shield takes an action; no love for dex-based S&Bers). Lady Pest looks like a good target for grappling (8 STR). That alone with spare a lot of attention that would have otherwise been focused on her allies. But it's ok, since Lady Pest has a good enough acrobatics (+7) with which she'll defend against grapples. And when she will be lifted up in the air and thrown down (because lets face it, that will happen sooner or later), she has a good enough dex save (+7) to avoid hurting her allies (and to avoid/reduce the falling damage to her? -didnt quite catch how that works; the point is she has good saves). So yeah, pretty much this, bad STR makes her look like a good target to grapple, and surprisingly good acrobatics make her decent at defending against these grapple checks, good dex saves (her allies will probably profit from aura of protection's boost too -she'll want to stay close to them for that reason) will be her best defense against the monkeys' tactics. She will also use whatever resources she has left up to this point -metagaming alert!- (lucky rolls, spell slots with aid/ aura of vitality, whatever else) to show these monkeys who is the jungle king!

ps: Lady Pest's banner displays a lion!



========================================

Edited to make it easier to read (hopefully). Changed some bits here and there since after a second read it seemed to me I was fancy-talking my way out of some bad situations (though I may still do that to some extent -either I dont see I'm doing it or I cant help it). I also tried to give a good idea about what resource expenditure will look like after every encounter, though the first encounter is so difficult (or rather, I am so bored of doing so) to approximate in term of resources expended, so sorry if it is not very clear what and how much of each is used; I did try to present my tactics in depth though.

ps: Hmmm, I should have Lady Pest play smarter against the fire giant (ie using sanctuary, just like Cranduin the Least did). Meh, that's the price of an 8 INT...:smalltongue:

MaxWilson
2017-06-21, 08:36 PM
If the fiend is within 30 feet when lady Pest activates sacred weapon, then lady Pest will not use her movement to closeon him until her second turn. That is so she will be within 10 feet of her allies to share her aura of courage that will protect them from the fiend's unnerving mask (fear effect).

You don't need to do this part actually--Unnerving Mask requires that you be able to see the chain devil, which nobody can because of the darkness.

P.S. Good luck Lady Pest! Give 'em trouble.

P.P.S. Good point about Sacred Weapon vs. Darkness.

Shining Wrath
2017-06-22, 06:51 AM
Because I have a sense of humor - Best Tank = Lore Bard
Std Array = Str 8, Dex 15, Con 13, Wis 10, Int 12, Cha 14 -->
Half Elf = Str 8, Dex 16, Con 14, Wis 10, Int 12, Cha 16 -->
2 ASI = Str 8, Dex 18, Con 14, Wis 10, Int 12, Cha 18
LVL10 Half-Elf Lore Bard AC unknown since we're naked right?

Enchanter with Fire Giant bodyguard
Move into range (Advantage against charm spells-Half Elf should I NOT have advantage), Cast Fear on the Fire Giant, Giant will turn and move through the Enchanter likely disrupting his spell and possibly causing charging damage/knockdown. Banishing Smite on the Enchanter as a bonus action (5d10 Force Damage + Banishment (assuming he's not already dead)). Party can now do considerably more than 20 damage. No damage turns absorbed. Plant growth the hallway to create difficult terrain (not allowed, sigh) + Heat Metal on the breastplate in case the giant saves. Once Giant is dead release the banish concentration and counterspell the Enchanter while party kills it. 0 party damage.
Tucker's Kobold's
Well, In a real game I would cast invisibility (5th level) to Invis the whole party and carefully walk out without fighting (0 party damage. ASSUMING we had already been discovered in this gauntlet I would cast Shatter to clear anything in front of us 4 times plus AOE heal, both of which violate the no AOE limits. Under these limitations I would need to cast wall of force above us to prevent any damage coming in from that direction and cast Seeming on all creatures in LOS (at the most dense) to make them appear to be more party members, reducing the damage again but still maybe outside the rules. So instead I cast major image "Beholder" and have it lead the way, terrifying all the Kobolds. Dare I say? 0 party damage.
Chain Devil
It's cheating a bit to cast a 7th level darkness spell when no 10th level has spells available above 5th. Still, I Banishing Smite him which breaks concentration on the darkness spell then cast Wall of Force, breaking concentration and summoning him back, The wall prevents him from hitting us with the chains while the party kills him, 0 party damage.
T-Rex
Cast Fear, save unlikely since, lets face it, T-rex has no wisdom. DPS, recast Fear as necessary. 0 party damage.
Flying Monkeys
You guessed it, Wall of Force over our heads angling down to the floor, Monkeys have to come in the front past me to get to my party and can't hit me with ranged items. Monkeys come down single we kill em, monkeys come down enmasse I cast shatter and we kill em. I'm sorry, by the rules I can't AOE, the Wizard casts fireball/lighting bolt killing everything in the room (except us). 0 party damage.

All of this assumes you didn't mean all the encounters happen with no rest in between.

No rest. Precisely so you can't use 5th level spells to help with every encounter. Also, the kobolds attack from all directions, so a Beholder 20' in front of you just reduces the number of directions you are attacked from, from 5 to 4 (count above, too). The darkness spell is a permanent feature of the room independent of the chain devil.

DivisibleByZero
2017-06-22, 06:56 AM
Kind of thinking that a short rest should be put somewhere inside that series of encounters.

This.
Five straight encounters is not a good approximation of what you'll see on any given adventuring day.

I see that the OP has been edited to allow point buy. That is good. If you toss a short rest in there as well, then you'll see a lot more viable tanks open up. For example, as it stands, Battle Masters are off the table even though they make good tanks. Monks are off as well, even though some people consider them, to quote another, "second best," and so on.

Basically, I think this should be AL creation rules, zero magic items, and a short rest included. If it gets there I might include a submission. As it stands, even with your edit, with the stipulations provided the entire experiment is skewed towards long rest dependent or passive classes.

Sir cryosin
2017-06-22, 08:09 AM
This.
Five straight encounters is not a good approximation of what you'll see on any given adventuring day.

I see that the OP has been edited to allow point buy. That is good. If you toss a short rest in there as well, then you'll see a lot more viable tanks open up. For example, as it stands, Battle Masters are off the table even though they make good tanks. Monks are off as well, even though some people consider them, to quote another, "second best," and so on.

Basically, I think this should be AL creation rules, zero magic items, and a short rest included. If it gets there I might include a submission. As it stands, even with your edit, the entire experiment is skewed towards long rest dependent or passive classes.

I agree these 5 Encounters with out a short rest it ridiculous.

Citan
2017-06-22, 08:49 AM
There's an argument going about what build makes the best tank - so let's have some fun with this. You have until Friday morning to submit a build for a tank, which I'm going to define. Then through the weekend we'll let people vote for which build they think best meets the criteria. EDITED TO ALLOW POINT BUY. EDITED TO ALLOW CORRECT POINT BUY. EDITED TO MAKE ROOM FOR THE GIANT. EDIT TO CLARIFY REGARDING HP LOSS>

Limitations


Standard array OR 27 POINT BUY
PHB or Volo's races
PHB or SCAG backgrounds
Multi-class builds must meet ability score requirements
The character should be of level 10.
Unfortunately, you ran into a truly evil wizard who spammed Mordenkainen's Disjunction at your party, and no one has any magical items or weapons.


Selection Criteria
For purposes of the contest, a tank is a member of a party, and has a role to play within that party. That role is to prevent members of the party from losing hit points using whatever means are suitable for the tank's build, other than "kill all the enemies first", which is the role of the Striker. That's not to say that dealing damage is unimportant; a tank can't be someone that is easily ignored. For purity's sake, let me rule out the use of area effect magics to shut down the enemy, e.g., Stinking Cloud is not "tanking" as the term as usually used, although it's an effective technique.

To aid in judging, I propose that the tank be scored assuming 5 "standard" encounters before a rest of any sort is possible. The encounters are as follows (remembering this is a level 10 party). The other party members are a bard, a wizard, and a cleric; your build should not depend on these characters being of any particular archetype. By supplying specific encounters, I'm trying to avoid white room theorycrafting. If you think my encounters are biased, let me know. During the encounters, you control only the tank; the rest of the party is played by stubborn people who just won't listen to you now matter how much sense you make (if you frequent these fora, you ought to be accustomed to that :smallsmile:). I abstract this out by just assigning a certain amount of damage per round dealt to the monster(s) by the actions of the rest of the party. You may assume a certain amount of common sense; the wizard will hang back and cast spells rather than drawing dagger and getting in a fire giant's face, and so on.

Describe for each encounter how your tank minimizes the damage absorbed by the party in total. Temporary hit points don't count but if you have to expend a resource to generate them it should be noted. If you can recover HP during combat (yours or a teammate) that reduces HP losses for the team, but again any resources expended need to be noted.

We don't have Dragonfire Adepts / Dragon Shamans with Aura of Vitality in 5e :smallbiggrin:

Enchanter with Fire Giant bodyguard
HP: Enchanter has 56, fire giant has 162.
Terrain: The party enters at one end of a 100' long 15' wide hallway, with the giant interposed between them and the level 9 enchanter.
Tactics: The enchanter will attempt to use Dominate Person on the tank and turn them against the rest of the party. If the tank is not dominated, the enchanter will use Evard's Black Tentacles on those engaging the giant. If that proves ineffective, the enchanter will attempt Confusion on the tank.
The giant will throw rocks at the party wizard until engaged in melee. Once engaged, the giant will focus on eliminating the tank, unless the tank is confused, at which point the giant will attempt to move down the hallway to engage the rest of the party.
Timing: the other members of the party will fire upon the enchanter first (kill the caster!) but the giant is obviously in the way and they can only manage 20 HP / round. Unless the tank helps somehow, the enchanter will last 3 rounds. At this point they will fire upon the giant, adding 30 HP / round to whatever the tank is doing.

Judging for this encounter rests upon keeping the total damage absorbed by the party to a minimum. That means first and foremost making the save against Dominate Person, because a tank who runs back and attempts to kill the wizard is a failure at tanking.

Tucker's Kobold's
HP: infinite. For purposes of this encounter there are an infinite number of kobolds; the little guys just keep coming. Some of them can use magic.
Terrain: a kobold warren. Lots of twisty little tunnels, some of which are all alike and some of which are all different. Scattered among the tunnels are a very large number of holes / portals through which nasty things can be thrown / fired / dropped / cast / etc.
Tactics: Every round, every member of the party takes one or more ranged or spell attacks - alchemist's fire, crossbows, sling stones, dropped bags of scorpions, nets, spells attacking all 3 of the common saves [Dexterity, Constitution, Wisdom]. .... There is no way for the tank to physically prevent these attacks against themselves or the rest.
Timing: Run. Run as fast as you can. Which isn't very fast because the tunnels are twisty and little, counting as difficult terrain. The distance to travel is 150 feet; the rest of the party can all manage 30 feet a round unless the tank slows them down. Yes, if your build features a race with a speed of 25 you take one extra round.

Judging for this encounter rests upon keeping the total damage absorbed by the party to a minimum. Assume the kobolds are smart enough that if the tank is, e.g., resistant to crossbow bolts they'll fire crossbows at someone else and instead use spells or scorpions or what have you on the tank. Spells or auras that help other party members make saving throws, class features that let the tank block attacks at nearby allies, and so on can be used.

Chain Devil
HP:85
Terrain: A 30' x 30' room with a Darkness spell permanently cast in the center. For purposes of conflict with Light spells or Dispel Magic, the darkness spell was cast with a 7th level slot. In each corner is anchored a 10' long chain. The devil animates the chains the first round of combat. The party may not even realize the devil is there unless someone moves near the darkness - the chains might draw their attention.
Tactics: the devil will attempt to stay within the darkness, where it can see and the party cannot. The devil is an intelligent fighter (devilishly cunning, in fact) and will attempt to target the wizard first and the bard second with chain attacks, both animated and carried by the devil. The devil will shove a grappled victim into a corner to be seized by a chain if that seems advantageous.
Timing: It's pretty difficult to fight a devil in the darkness, and the devil has resistance against non-magical weapons and magic. The party manages 20 HP per round somehow, so the devil lasts 5 rounds unless the tank does some damage.

Judging for this encounter rests upon keeping the total damage absorbed by the party to a minimum. This means finding the devil in the darkness and forcing them to attack you, not the squishy people. Ability to do significant damage to the devil is obviously a plus, but you've got to find them. Ability to grapple the devil and drag them into the light doubles the damage done by the rest of the party.

T-Rex
HP: 136
Terrain: A 75' by 75' room, the dinosaur is in the center of the room when the party enters.
Tactics: Ready for a straight-up fight? Here you go! T-Rex will attack the nearest party members each round, choosing randomly among ties. It is smart enough to maneuver so that it can use both the bite and the tail each round and that breaks ties when choosing how to move. If it grapples someone it will attempt to bite them every round until the victim dies or the T-Rex does.
Timing: The rest of the party does 40 HP per round. T-Rex lasts 4 rounds unless the tank does some damage.

Judging for this encounter rests upon keeping the total damage absorbed by the party to a minimum. That means getting T-Rex to attack the person with either the highest AC or the highest damage resistance.

Flying Monkeys
HP: 19 each for 12 monkeys. Use the "ape" statistics, but give the flying monkey a fly speed of 40 feet. Note that if a Beastmaster Ranger with a canine companion happened along, the flying monkeys would get the ranger, and her little dog, too.
Terrain: A 100' by 100' room with a high ceiling. There are lots of fist sized rocks scattered in the room, making the floor difficult terrain. The party enters in one corner, and the monkeys start in the opposite corner.
Tactics: The monkeys will throw rocks in an attempt to soften up the party as they close with them, and then will attempt to grapple - two or three per party member. If two monkeys successfully grapple a victim they will fly straight up and drop their target directly on top of another person, doing 4d10 to the person dropped and also 4d10 to the person on the ground, unless that person makes a DC 12 Dexterity save to avoid their falling comrade. The monkeys will prefer to grapple physically weaker targets and are smart enough to guess who that might be.
Timing: The rest of the party will do 50 HP of damage per round, so the monkeys won't last long.

Judging for this encounter rests upon keeping the total damage absorbed by the party to a minimum. That means preventing grapple attacks. The best way to do that is to kill monkeys.

And ... go!
Hi!
First, a few critics:

1. Saying that there is no way to take even ONE short-rest somewhere between encounters is severely reducing the options. I guess you decided on that to avoid nit-picking about when or how taking the short rest now or then would affect builds. Still, it is a strong bias. No doubt about it.

2. Keeping character level at 10: I understand the logic (seeing as how level 20 or so campaigns are rare), but the 11th level provides a big power boost to single classes. I don't mind that much but some other people may. ;)

3. Why wouldn't you count THP as prevented damage: THP have exactly the same function as HP, they are just suborned to some special rules made to prevent huge THP spikes like in previous editions. But it a creature hits one of my pal for 10 damage, but he had 4 THP, the actual damage dealt was 6: there was 4 damage prevented.

4. Why would you rule out AOE spells? That's a very illegitimate bias: preventing enemies to move as they want or do as they want is one of the best ways to prevent damage.

5. Why count out EE? It's an official content after all, so letting people choose between this and SCAG should be fair imo.

Seeing all this really makes me think you are trying to favor some classes over other. :)
Anyways...Quick suggestions at a first glance, on tactics or classes that would be good (I'll make actual build suggestions later).

a) Ancients Paladin would shine here: high chance to avoid caster's effects, ability to Misty Step if really needed to escape Tentacles or as a way to get to caster faster.

b) Darkness: cast on an item that you will hold (or make a familiar hold) behind your party as it runs away: since it's magical, darkvision won't help, so you are using a low-level spell to at least impose disadvantage on all ranged attacks against your party.

c) Devil's Sight seems a must here...

d) No opinion yet (seems like many ways to tackle it). ^^

e) No opinion yet (this one is difficult for me ^^).

Still, I'll probably try and see what an Ancients Paladin 7 / Tome Warlock 3 could do since they have many tools that could help: 1st level Smites, Devil Sight, Darkness, self-healing, THP, good ranged attack (Repelling Blast!) and so on. ;)

Shining Wrath
2017-06-22, 09:42 AM
Hi!
First, a few critics:

1. Saying that there is no way to take even ONE short-rest somewhere between encounters is severely reducing the options. I guess you decided on that to avoid nit-picking about when or how taking the short rest now or then would affect builds. Still, it is a strong bias. No doubt about it.

2. Keeping character level at 10: I understand the logic (seeing as how level 20 or so campaigns are rare), but the 11th level provides a big power boost to single classes. I don't mind that much but some other people may. ;)

3. Why wouldn't you count THP as prevented damage: THP have exactly the same function as HP, they are just suborned to some special rules made to prevent huge THP spikes like in previous editions. But it a creature hits one of my pal for 10 damage, but he had 4 THP, the actual damage dealt was 6: there was 4 damage prevented.

4. Why would you rule out AOE spells? That's a very illegitimate bias: preventing enemies to move as they want or do as they want is one of the best ways to prevent damage.

5. Why count out EE? It's an official content after all, so letting people choose between this and SCAG should be fair imo.

Seeing all this really makes me think you are trying to favor some classes over other. :)
Anyways...Quick suggestions at a first glance, on tactics or classes that would be good (I'll make actual build suggestions later).

a) Ancients Paladin would shine here: high chance to avoid caster's effects, ability to Misty Step if really needed to escape Tentacles or as a way to get to caster faster.

b) Darkness: cast on an item that you will hold (or make a familiar hold) behind your party as it runs away: since it's magical, darkvision won't help, so you are using a low-level spell to at least impose disadvantage on all ranged attacks against your party.

c) Devil's Sight seems a must here...

d) No opinion yet (seems like many ways to tackle it). ^^

e) No opinion yet (this one is difficult for me ^^).

Still, I'll probably try and see what an Ancients Paladin 7 / Tome Warlock 3 could do since they have many tools that could help: 1st level Smites, Devil Sight, Darkness, self-healing, THP, good ranged attack (Repelling Blast!) and so on. ;)

1) There's a lot of pushback on the no rests. I may have to admit I overdid that. I wanted to reward features that are "always on" over ones that consume resources, but there's such a thing as too much of a good constraint. If I do this again, I'll do it differently, but we have builds posted for these rules.

2) I picked 10 as the "middle". Also, the further you go, the more encounter-breaking magic comes online. I'm trying for a feel for "good tank for most campaigns".

3) I do count THP as prevented damage. I must have written poorly; burning through THP is obviously better than burning through real HP, just note any resources consumed to produce the temporary HP.

4) I'm trying to avoid wizard builds as tanks (other than an abjurer or bladesinger build). Wall of Force stops lots of stuff, but it's not what people normally mean by "tanking".

5) Completely forgot Elemental Evil. Just spaced it. I'll edit to allow it.

Corran
2017-06-22, 11:56 AM
1) There's a lot of pushback on the no rests. I may have to admit I overdid that. I wanted to reward features that are "always on" over ones that consume resources, but there's such a thing as too much of a good constraint. If I do this again, I'll do it differently, but we have builds posted for these rules.

I can only speak for myself, but I wouldn't mind (having already posted a build) if you changed the rules to allow a short rest. I'm interested in seeing what other people have to suggest, and if that change would enable more to post tank builds, then that would be for the better imo.

MaxWilson
2017-06-22, 12:11 PM
1) There's a lot of pushback on the no rests. I may have to admit I overdid that. I wanted to reward features that are "always on" over ones that consume resources, but there's such a thing as too much of a good constraint. If I do this again, I'll do it differently, but we have builds posted for these rules.

FWIW, as far as the contest goes, I'm 100% fine with adding a short rest in the middle. Just pretend that the wizard has Rope Trick memorized and decided to cast it e.g. after the Chain Devil.

I wouldn't change my submission under the contest rules in response, but in an actual adventure I would still be happy if he did that--anything that helps the party helps me (e.g. more Bardic Inspiration), and now everyone gets to heal with healing dice ("hit dice"), which helps me stretch my 185 HP of healing a bit further.

Anyway, don't feel married to "no rests in this contest" on my account.

Shining Wrath
2017-06-22, 12:56 PM
By popular demand, one rest is allowed. In between any two encounters, as convenient.
Note when you take it if you do.
Note if you don't take it if you don't.
I think we ought to use the need for short rests as a tie breaker when evaluating builds.

PeteNutButter
2017-06-22, 01:22 PM
Fringard, The Goblinoid Fighting Wizard
Race: Hobgoblin (gaining proficiency in light armor, rapiers and longbows)
Class: Abjurer 10

Feats: Moderately Armored, Warcaster

Stats: STR 8, DEX 14 (Moderately Armored boost to 15), CON 16, INT 16, WIS 12, CHA 8

AC: 19 (Half Plate and Shield), AC 24 with shield spell
HP: 72
Arcane Ward: 23

At-will Damage: Booming Blade with silvered Rapier: 1d8+2 piercing + 1d8 thunder + 2d8 thunder if target moves. +6 to hit, familiar grants advantage.

Spells: As listed in combat. *Every spell suggested is one I regularly prepare as an abjurer player.*

Fringard is a LN loyal companion who will protect his team in any way possible by blocking his opponents physical access to his companions, countering opponent's spells, and moving his ward to his companions when necessary. Booming Blade discourages and punishes enemies that try and get past Fringard, with Warcaster opportunity attacks can be BB also or even something more powerful such as banishment for opponents that wish to leave Fringard's reach. He only uses his spells for defense and things that could trivialize the encounter. Fringard is of the mindset that the best tank is not only one that can take some hits (which he can) but also be able to prevent those hits from every happening.


Scenario 1: Fringard is naturally suspicious of a Fire Giant working with a puny human, so if his arcana check makes him think the Fire Giant might be under some manner of compulsion from the enchanter he spends round one of combat dispelling the Fire Giant, and cackling an oddly high-pitched laughter as the Fire Giant turns on his former master. The party cleans up the winner, which will be the fire giant because Fringard will be countering the enchanter's spells as he tries desperately to regain control of the giant. More Details on scenario 2.

Scenario 2: Fringard assesses that the giant and the enchanter are actually just pals. Most spells, including all those listed in the enchanter's strategy require sight. So Fringard will knock that right out with a cloudkill spell on the enemies, positioning it such that the foes must either flee out of it as it slowly chases them or completely run through it towards the party. Fringard will advance and stand in the center of the hallway. On round two, Fringard will cast Mirror Image and advance again so that the giant encounters him when emerging from the cloud. Odds are the giant knocks out two mirror images on his turn. By round 3 or four Fringard can cast blur (assuming the enchanter is dead via cloudkill and party attacks (likely with disadvantage)). For the first two rounds Fringard will keep his reaction open for counterspell on the enchanter in case he comes through the cloud. His level 10 abjurer ability should make it a pretty easy counter, and he can use his save face racial if he rolls low, ensuring he won't be dominated. By round 3 he can safely spam shield against the giant's attacks as necessary and have blur up by round 3 or 4. With blur and shield the giant hits him 20% of the time, averaging 11.2 damage a round. The giant dies by round 4-5, having taken cloudkill damage 1-2 times (likely saving) and taken 2-3 BBs from Fringard.

Scenario 3: Don't use stinking cloud in case some people think it isn't tanking. Just open with a blur, and spam counterspells on the enemy caster. Should burn a few more slots (on counters), but save the 5th level one, so it balances out. If it gets dicey, just banish or hold monster on the giant.

Conclusion: Assuming Scenario 2 (scenario 1 is just too fun) we can safely bet that Fringard takes about 13 actual hit point damage (my quick math suggests he will take an average of 40.6 in five rounds, the ward absorbs 23 + another 4 from two shield spells), as he can soak most of it up with his mirror images, blur, shield spell, and arcane ward. The rest of the party has taken no damage due to Fringard's denial/countering of his opponent's spells. Let's assume he had to spend at least 1 counterspell, 1 mirror image, 1 blur, 2 shields, and the cloudkill. That's 2 second level spells, 2 first, 1 third, and 1 fifth. Fringard suggests a short rest via rope trick, but if the gods deem that that isn't somehow safe he scratches his head before pushing on, but not before ritualing up alarms to recharge his arcane ward. :smalltongue:

Fringard doesn't like to run, but if he has to... there are two options here that rather easily end the encounter for him with what he has prepared. Option 1 is grab the squishy wizard, tell the team to "Rendezvous at surface point Charlie," and promptly Dimension Door the two of them right the *** out. Let the bard and cleric rush through, as then can heal themselves if needed. Option 2 is to cast Longstrider on the team and just have everyone take the dash action. That's 80 40 feet a round, meaning everyone should be out in just 2 4 rounds. *Yes, I regularly prep Longstrider as it is a decent duration, non-concentration buff.*

Conclusion: Either option uses a fourth level spell slot. With Option 2 there should be minimal damage to the team as depending on kobold initiative, they only get 3-4 rounds of enemy attacks. Fringard will personally take one extra round of damage as he can't dash the round he casts Longstrider. He is confident his Arcane Ward will soak up most of the kobold damage.

Scenario 1: Before entering the room Fringard can see 60 feet out that magical darkness is blocking his normal darkvision. This ain't his first walk around the wizard block so he is going to Dispel Magic that crap from the hallway. It's level 7? Well good thing he gets +7 to the check (go level 10 abjurer again). That's a 55% chance of success, and if it fails he'll just do it again. He doesn't need to know what is in the room to know it's a freaking trap and worth dispelling. Once the darkness goes down the party will begin to blast the Devil from the hallway, while he holds the passage down. He'll stand in the doorway to bait out the devil's animate chains, and retreat back into the hallway before he ever gets to use them. Depending on how much Fringard knows about Chain Devil's specifically he'll probably waste his first turn trying to banish it (which will likely fail due to his magic resistance and +5 to cha saves). After that'll Fringard will engage in a tank and spank fight (using his SILVERED rapier) which should be relatively short (roughly 2-3 rounds) as the party can plink away without fear of the darkness. The devil's attacks will probably barely pierce Fringard's ward. With +11 to hit he only hits Frin for an average of 11 damage a round, or just 5.5 if he casts shield.

EDIT: Scenario 2: If you think it's cheating to engage from the hallway, the fight is pretty similar, just more damage will be done to the party. Tough luck.

Conclusion: (Using Scenario 1)The party is again saved from taking ANY damage as Fringard negated the foes trap with a solid Dispel Magic, backed up by his level 10 subclass feature, and possibly his racial feature as needed. We'll assume Fringard used the banishment and one dispel magic for a 3rd and 4th level slot, as well as one shield spell for a 1st level slot. There is still a good 22% chance that the banishment outright ends the fight as the devil gets banished. He'll suggest another short rest via ropetrick, but since he somehow can't he'll just ritual up a few alarms before trudging on.
Fringard thinks it's cute and would prefer not to kill it. He'll happily banish it and walk away for it to come back a minute later with no party around to bother. If not he'll end up trying to get it with his other 5th level spell slot: Hold Monster. Whether that hits or fails it is tank and spank from there on. He'll blur up on round 2 if the hold monster didn't land. He'll use his last first level slot to shield at some point and probably his last second level to shield as well. Make sure everyone else stands back. Spam Booming Blade on the thing, making it take extra damage if it moves, and another BB if it leaves his reach.

Conclusion: At this point if the two CC spells failed, Fringard will have exhausted all his spells except for 1 third and 1 fourth level slot. He probably took some damage is getting a little stressed out. He has good chances of being missed, but when it did connect he felt it. If the T-Rex attacked teammates instead, he would have killed it faster (BB damage + OA BB) and even moved his arcane ward to protect them from hp damage as necessary. He curses the gods for not letting him short rest, as he seriously considers just ritualling up a Leomund's Tiny Hut for the night. Instead he just rituals up his alarms for his ward and trudges on, muttering in Goblin to himself.
Fringard grins at the sight and is happy to say he conserved his resources. A single well-positioned fireball in the sky on the other side of the room should make short work of the encounter. He can use his last 4th level slot to do it again if for some reason that didn't get the job done.

Conclusion: Fringard is done. DUN! He starts ritualling up his Tiny Hut right the **** there as he complains to the cleric for not having more sway over the gods and their rules.
Overall Fringard did a decent job of preventing the party from every really taking much damage. His frequent counterspells and dispels magic keep the party free from most magical threats. His conservative strategy with his spells and arcane ward keep him going long after others would have fallen. He could have probably ended the first fight easier if he used more spells (like maybe that extra 4th level one), but he didn't know what the day would bring. There are a lot of variables, and certain spells can outright end encounters if they connect. The build suffers a bit if he can't recharge his ward between fights, but it still is strong as most of the spells cast (shield, counterspell, dispel magic, banishment) add points back to it.

As an added note, I'd usually make this character str based, variant human with first level in fighter for heavy armor and con saves, but the level cut off and encounters provided made the 10th level abjuration ability a must-have to counter any dominates and dispel any darkness. In that way he is very much tailor-made for these encounters.

EDIT: I guess he is allowed to short rest now. Well I guess he proved he didn't need to, but he would have probably just done it after the first fight, getting a 5th level slot back and any hp. More points if he doesn't do it all?

MaxWilson
2017-06-22, 01:34 PM
Scenario 2: Fringard assesses that the giant and the enchanter are actually just pals. Most spells, including all those listed in the enchanter's strategy require sight. So Fringard will knock that right out with a cloudkill spell on the enemies, positioning it such that the foes must either flee out of it as it slowly chases them or completely run through it towards the party. Fringard will advance and stand in the center of the hallway. On round two, Fringard will cast Mirror Image and advance again so that the giant encounters him when emerging from the cloud, forcing the giant to stop before fully exiting the cloud. Odds are the giant knocks out two mirror images on his turn. By round 3 or four Fringard can cast blur (assuming the enchanter is dead via cloudkill and party attacks (likely with disadvantage)). For the first two rounds Fringard will keep his reaction open for counterspell on the enchanter in case he comes through the cloud. His level 10 abjurer ability should make it a pretty easy counter, and he can use his save face racial if he rolls low, ensuring he won't be dominated. By round 3 he can safely spam shield against the giant's attacks as necessary and have blur up by round 3 or 4. With blur and shield the giant hits him 20% of the time, averaging 11.2 damage a round. The giant dies by round 4-5, having taken cloudkill damage twice (likely saving each time) and taken 2-3 at BB from Fringard.

Note: the giant is not in fact forced to stop. It's Huge and you're Medium; you can only block the movement of creatures up to size Large.



[SPOILER=Tucker's Kobold's]Fringard doesn't like to run, but if he has to... there are two options here that rather easily end the encounter for him with what he has prepared. Option 1 is grab the squishy wizard, tell the team to "Rendezvous at surface point Charlie," and promptly Dimension Door the two of them right the *** out. Let the bard and cleric rush through, as then can heal themselves if needed. Option 2 is to cast Longstrider on the team and just have everyone take the dash action. That's 80 feet a round, meaning everyone should be out in just 2 rounds. *Yes, I regularly prep Longstrider as it is a decent duration, non-concentration buff.*

I agree that Longstrider is worthy, but you're overlooking the difficult terrain. Everyone only Dashes 40 feet a round even with Longstrider, so it takes 4 rounds instead of 5. But you're losing part of a round to casting Longstrider, so all that's happening is that everyone except you gets out in 4 rounds, if you cast Longstrider IV. Since the kobolds surround you on all sides throughout the warrens, you can't out-distance them by the terms of the contest: you still wind up taking the full five rounds of damage.

RE: Chain Devil, I don't think you're allowed to do things "before you enter the room" or while standing outside of the room. Otherwise, too many of these challenges would be trivialized by just killing things from range while the tank blocks the doorway.

PeteNutButter
2017-06-22, 01:41 PM
Note: the giant is not in fact forced to stop. It's Huge and you're Medium; you can only block the movement of creatures up to size Large.

I agree that Longstrider is worthy, but you're overlooking the difficult terrain. Everyone only Dashes 40 feet a round even with Longstrider, so it takes 4 rounds instead of 5. But you're losing part of a round to casting Longstrider, so all that's happening is that everyone except you gets out in 4 rounds, if you cast Longstrider IV. Since the kobolds surround you on all sides throughout the warrens, you can't out-distance them by the terms of the contest: you still wind up taking the full five rounds of damage.

Derped on the size thing and totally skipped right over the difficult terrain. I'll edit accordingly.

On that note, I wonder if it's better to just DD out of the kobold cave. It is saving 5 rounds of damage on half the party, as apposed to saving 2 rounds of damage on the whole party. The arcane ward soaks damage though so it is still a toss up. I guess it would depend on how squishy our wizard buddy is.


RE: Chain Devil, I don't think you're allowed to do things "before you enter the room" or while standing outside of the room. Otherwise, too many of these challenges would be trivialized by just killing things from range while the tank blocks the doorway.

While I agree with the spirit of what you are saying, I don't see it mentioned in the OP. The point is that my build as an abjurer is specifically designed to actually break through the spell and prevent the whole trap. It's D&D, not white room fight against a stat block. The way I see it, playing smart is part of being a good tank (or any role really). Only an abjurer can reliably stop the darkness and then know there is even a devil in there to fight.

MaxWilson
2017-06-22, 01:55 PM
Derped on the size thing and totally skipped right over the difficult terrain. I'll edit accordingly.

On that note, I wonder if it's better to just DD out of the kobold cave. It is saving 5 rounds of damage on half the party, as apposed to saving 2 rounds of damage on the whole party. The arcane ward soaks damage though so it is still a toss up. I guess it would depend on how squishy our wizard buddy is.

It also depends on how the kobolds work. If it's a constant barrage of N attacks against however many party members are present, then removing half the party doesn't really improve the situation--it just makes it more likely that those left behind will die. It's hard to say without more details--all we can do is declare an action and see how the DM resolves it, right? Right.

PeteNutButter
2017-06-22, 01:55 PM
To the OP: Did you just add the thing about stinking cloud not being tanking because I used it, or was there there all along and I just missed it somehow?

The whole point of an abjurer tank is that they can tank in the traditional sense, as well as use spells to prevent their team from taking damage, such as shield, counterspell, dispel magic, and yes stinking cloud is a very effective way to prevent damage as it blocks sight.

Zaydos
2017-06-22, 02:09 PM
To the OP: Did you just add the thing about stinking cloud not being tanking because I used it, or was there there all along and I just missed it somehow?

The last edit (atm) predates your post by 30 minutes, so unless he's precognitive I don't think it was intended just for you.

Shining Wrath
2017-06-22, 02:19 PM
Stinking Cloud comment was already there, but so was a comment about an abjurer wizard being a valid tank. We'll have to leave it up to the voters!

DivisibleByZero
2017-06-22, 02:20 PM
To the OP: Did you just add the thing about stinking cloud not being tanking because I used it, or was there there all along and I just missed it somehow?
The last edit (atm) predates your post by 30 minutes, so unless he's precognitive I don't think it was intended just for you.

It's been there the whole time. It was there when I came in as first responder.

PeteNutButter
2017-06-22, 02:24 PM
It's been there the whole time. It was there when I came in as first responder.

Yeah leave it to me to not read the directions. How funny is it that I suggested using the exact same spell that the OP said wasn't tanking... a little funny at least.

At any rate, I've added a third option for the encounter, which is tank and spank in case people are bothered.

MaxWilson
2017-06-22, 02:25 PM
While I agree with the spirit of what you are saying, I don't see it mentioned in the OP. The point is that my build as an abjurer is specifically designed to actually break through the spell and prevent the whole trap. It's D&D, not white room fight against a stat block. The way I see it, playing smart is part of being a good tank (or any role really). Only an abjurer can reliably stop the darkness and then know there is even a devil in there to fight.

Yeah, but if you play smart, a lot of these scenarios never arise in the first place. E.g. you will never fight a T-Rex as a party; instead the Mobile Monk will just kill it to death before the rest of the party gets there.

BTW, Abjuror isn't the only one who could help here. Anyone who can cast Fog Cloud (e.g. Moon Druid) can block the chain devil's view just as effectively as he blocks yours w/ Darkness, and now it's a question of what the chain devil does when it loses the advantage--does it go help the T-Rex? Everything gets complicated when you start invoking smart play, and while that is good for an actual TTRPG game, it's not so good for a white-room analysis like this contest is designed to be. I'm not trying to tear you down, either--if the contest judges accept your method I'm fine with it and won't gripe. I'm just... discussing, because I found your approach interesting, and because wasting time that should be spent otherwise is what the Internet is good for. :)

BTW I thought your idea of "wasting" an action casting Dispel Magic on the giant was very interesting. Props for roleplaying. :)

Hackulator
2017-06-22, 02:28 PM
There is a difference between tanking, healing and battlefield control.

Is this a thread about tanking or a thread about all three of those things?

For example, the kobold encounter is not a "tankable" encounter as designed. It's basically a bunch of environmental damage, which can be healed through and possibly mitigated in some ways but not tanked.

PeteNutButter
2017-06-22, 02:33 PM
Yeah, but if you play smart, a lot of these scenarios never arise in the first place. E.g. you will never fight a T-Rex as a party; instead the Mobile Monk will just kill it to death before the rest of the party gets there.

BTW, Abjuror isn't the only one who could help here. Anyone who can cast Fog Cloud (e.g. Moon Druid) can block the chain devil's view just as effectively as he blocks yours w/ Darkness, and now it's a question of what the chain devil does when it loses the advantage--does it go help the T-Rex? Everything gets complicated when you start invoking smart play, and while that is good for an actual TTRPG game, it's not so good for a white-room analysis like this contest is designed to be. I'm not trying to tear you down, either--if the contest judges accept your method I'm fine with it and won't gripe. I'm just... discussing, because I found your approach interesting, and because wasting time that should be spent otherwise is what the Internet is good for. :)

I added another scenario that just said, we fight in the room.

You can tell I'm always a player that looks for an angle and uses said angle to break encounters if the DM didn't prepare for it. Sometimes it works out, sometimes it's a waste of a spell slot. It's almost always worth it though, just for the fun.


BTW I thought your idea of "wasting" an action casting Dispel Magic on the giant was very interesting. Props for roleplaying. :)

Cheers!

Bloodcloud
2017-06-22, 02:40 PM
I like Vhuman ftr 1/warlock (Fiend/blade) 9

Str 18
Dex 10
Con 12
Int 8
Wis 12
Cha 16

Feats: lvl 1 Heavy armor master, lvl 4 Sentienl, lvl8 ASI (STRx2)

Heavy armor, defensive style, two-handed weapon

Invocations: Thirsting Blade, Devil's sight, repelling blast, agonizing blast, minons of chaos (?not sure about the last one, doesn't really matter)

Spells: Armor of Aghatys, Darkness, Counterspell, Hex, Misty step, Dimension door, fly. Rest doesn't really matter here

General strategy is abusing Armor of Aghatys with damage resistance, coupled with the cleric casting warding bond to make it last a long time. We use a Short rest.

1. Enchanter: We can hope to make the save with Dark One’s Own Luck. Otherwise one of our caster companion can counterspell, or we can do it but we are left with little ressource if we do. Ideally armor of aghatys and warding bond is precast. We tank the fire giant, let our people deal with the caster.
Fire giant breaks through Armor of aghatys in two attacks on average, taking 50 damage in the process. We rush him on first round.

2. Kobold: We can teleport out with someone. But we can also conserve ressource. Get someone else to cast darkness. Now many spells can't be cast (no line of sight), attacks are at disadvantage. We lead the group to the exit with our eyes. If we take damage, just throw an eldritch blast at a kobold to heal.

On average a kobold hitting us with a weapon attack deals 1 measly dmg.

Short rest

3. Chain devil: Armor of aghatys, warding bond, tank. We don't mind the darkness. The devil will on average kill itself before churning through Aghatys (25 THP, avg dmg 11 ((11-3)/2) = 4 per hit, 25/4 = 6.25, 6.25*25 = 156, almost double it's HP. Even with resistance to cold damage he is toast on short order. My sword aint magical, but it can be silvered... Animated chains are killed the moment they hit me. Dark one's own luck gives a shot at the save against fear.

4. T-Rex: Simple: Tank with sentinel and the usual combo. Get attacks of oppportunity when he tries to get away because we hurt him when he bites. Armor of aghatys is gone fast on this one if he keeps attacking us, but at 25 a pop it still takes a third of its HP. The tail attack auto procs sentinel if he makes it, for a cool additionnal 2d6+4 (11) a turn. Being restrained is not really a problem.

5. Monkeys: Eldritch blast (up to 2d10+6 (12) per round) the *******s. Get THP we they drop. Ideally someone in the party cast darkness on the ceiling, and now they all but need to get down and attempt grapple. Stick togheter and I get to slam them as soon as they attempt to grab someone who is not me. If we still have a spell slot, fireball em all. There.

Over all, it performs ok. Our tank hasn't taken much damage, the cleric needs some healing, and the enemies got slaugthered.

Citan
2017-06-22, 04:53 PM
Ok. I'm ready to "battle". XD
First, thanks to OP for changing rules and allowing, among other things, a short-rest. ;)

With that said, the first build I'll suggest is not really affected.
By the way, I'll try to make it clean and readable, so you are welcome and encouraged to copy and adapt if you like it.

Also, I try my best in those builds not to metagame (aka making builds that I think would be good in many situations, not only those of OP), but of course choice of spells for example will be biaised. ;)

First proposition
=== Character build ===
Race: Half-Elf
Classes: Ancients Paladin 7 / Tome Warlock 3.
Attributes post-racial, pre-level (* denotes racial bonus):
STR 16 / DEX 12 / CON 14 / INT 8 / WIS 10 / CHA 16
Skills: Athletics, Perception (Sailor Background), Persuasion, Arcana (Half-Elf), Insight, Religion (Paladin).
ASIs: first, used on +2 CHA.
Armor Class: Clad in heavy armor + shield (AC 20).
Saves bonus (* denotes proficiency, ** denotes advantage, includes all permanent benefits):
STR +7, DEX +5, CON +6, INT +3, WIS* +8, CHA* +11.
Spell Save DC: 8+4+4 = 16

Racial benefits
Darkvision
Advantage against charmed spells
Skills: Persuasion, Arcana.
Language: Infernal.

Paladin benefits
Paladin's prepared spells (* denotes "auto" spells): Ensnaring Strike*, Wrathful Smite, Bless, Shield of Faith, Cure Wounds, Misty Step*, Moonbeam*, Branding Smite, Command, Compelled Duel.
Protection Fighting Style.
Lay on Hands = 5*7 HP.
Extra Attack
Divine Smite
Aura of Protection: +CHA to save (already included)
Aura of Warding: resistance against magic damage.
Spell slots: 4*1st, 3*2nd.

Warlock benefits
Fey Patron: mass 1/turn Fear per short rest. Chosen first because of Faerie Fire, but I'm not sure Faerie Fire would "counter" Darkness. So let's go with GOO's telepathy.
Known cantrips: Eldricht Blast, Booming Blade.
Known spells (* denotes a Patron spell): Faerie Fire*, Hex, Expeditious Retreat, Darkness, Phantasmal Force*.
Tome Pact: three cantrips: Thorns Whip, Minor Illusion, Guidance.
Invocations: Repelling Blast, Book of Ancients SecretsDevil's Sight.
2*2nd spells on short-rest.

=== General strategies ===
Disclaimer: this is actually a character I would totally play in any campaign, tank or not: good single-target damage, bit of AOE control, mobile, resilient. The only big change I made for this specific thread is swapping Book of Ancients Secrets for Devil's Sight. When this character would level, he would first go up to Warlock 5 to get that Invocation, then Paladin 9 for 3rd level spells, then back to Warlock up to 11. :) Anyways...

This character will usually be very conservative of his slots, using either a 1st level Bless on himself and two others, or Shield of Faith when extra defense is needed, or Expeditious Retreat when mobility is a thing... Sometimes dropping instead a 2nd level Wrathful Smite or using a Misty Escape from Warlock slots. He will alternate between either Extra Attack when wanting to Shove people prone and attack them, or plain weapon cantrip.
Outside of fighting, he uses Guidance to help himself and others, sparingly using Cure Wounds and Lay on Hands if Cleric is out of juice.

=== Tactics for these 5 encounters ===
1. Fire Giant + Enchanter
Disclaimer: I make the tactics with the assumption that party has only a relative idea of what both can do, but are not extremely informed about their weaknesses. I did have to go take a look myself though. ^^ An optimized move against the giant would be a Phantasmal Force as often, or maybe a Command: Grovel so that party can directly attack Enchanter with ranged attacks (Firebolt or weapons).

Note: it would help much knowing how far are really Giant and Enchanter from each other, and how far Giant is to the party. Because it can change much the tactic to use.
For now, I'll make several suggestions depending on party knowledge and relative distance.
I'll also consider that I start after the Bard (certainly decent DEX + Jack of All Trades) and enemy Enchanter, but before Fire Giant (not that it chances much anyways).
Finally, note that Paladin has a chance to avoid Dominate of ~84% (+8 and advantage against spell save DC of 8+4+5 supposedly -I make the assumption Enchanter has 20 INT because he maxed it ASAP-). A Devotion Paladin of same level would laugh in the face of the Enchanter FYI. ;)
Paladin also has a chance to avoid Evard's Black Tentacles should he get inside, of 45%. If he fails, he can still contribute thanks to Eldricht Blast, or make a Strength check although chances or low (if I read correctly, its just a plain STR check, not an Athletics check, so proficiency won't help here. Never noticed that before. Now I see the benefit of Champion's Remarkable Athlete. ;))

a) Good knowledge of Fire Giant + it being in middle of the room (since 60 feet on ranged attack).
T1: I cast Command with +0 against a spell save DC=16, so 75% chance success. Either Grovel, or Flee, depending on whichever is best for rest of party to get the best shot at Wizard, while I close in.
T2: If Grovel, I cast Ensnaring Strike as a bonus action before using Extra Attack: DC 16 but Giant has advantage, so only 50% chance of success. If Flee, depending on whichever is closer, I use Repelling Blast to push the Giant further, Eldricht Blast directly against the caster, or Thorns Whip to bring the caster closer to effective range of the party.
My goal is to suppress the cover the Giant would normally provide to the enchanter while limiting his threat.

b) Basic knowledge of Fire Giant + it being in the middle of the room.
If the Enchanter would be in range with that combo, I advance then cast Misty Step before
- using Booming Blade with a smite on it if I can.
- cast Thorns Whip to deal damage while bringing him closer.
Otherwise, if Fire Giant is in range, I cast Wrathful Smite, close in and Extra Attack.
Otherwise, I cast Phantasmal Force to create the illusion of a creature attacking him from behind, if possible in a way that would incite him to crouch.
Afterwards, I rush to the Enchanter then Repel Blast him towards my friends if necessary or just smack him as hard as I can from "behind" (let's not "be a cover").

2. Goblins.
Disclaimer: not sure I understood how it went, so I'll do both cases.

a) Goblins always come from behind us.
I cast a Phantasmal Force of a lava torrent or anything else that would stop them right in their tracks for a while.
EDIT: Does not work, since it affects only one target. And Silent Image is not here. So only Minor Illusion, but people stressed that it may not be workable as I intend. Waiting for feedback here, not experienced enough with this cantrip.
Alternatively, I could just cast an upcast Moonbeam which I make move together with us but from a slowly increasing distance to dissuade kobolds to follow us since it would insta-kill them.

b) Goblins come from everywhere because it's a true labyrinth with many interconnections between all caverns.
I cast Darkness on something I then hold, telling my group to stick very close to me and leading them through telepathy (GOO) or code sound (Fey).
In both cases, I try to stay near Wizard to use Protection as often as possible. And since my party is sticking very close to me, they ALSO benefit from my Auras so +4 on all saves and half-damage in case of magics.
In Darkness case, as soon as we enter a zone that is straight towards the exit, I stay behind to wreak havoc amongst goblins in pursuit, before dropping the object which Darkness is cast on and running away, using Expeditious Retreat if necessary.

3. Chain Devil
My first idea was to come close to him and cast Faerie Fire (Fey). But, beyond the fact he has advantage against saving throws against magic (it's still a +2 against DC 16, so a decent 45%), I'm not sure of how would it be ruled with Darkness around. If it works, then that's my cue: Faerie Fire, then on next turn Grappling the creature to avoid its movement while all the party gangs on it from the same side of the room (so that only one chain can be used against us) at close range (because Faerie Fire is 10 feet dim light). Of course requires party to have normal darkvision.

If that would not be a thing (and so I went GOO), depending on whether I have a chance to finish him off or not, I would just rush to it and use Extra Attack with Divine Smite (Warlock slots) on hit, for up to (1d8+4+3d8)*2 damage, then just finish him next turn, or instead position myself to Repel Blast him outside of darkness so my party can unleash hell on him.

4. T-Rex.
Well, totally easy no? Just cast Phantasmal Force (-1 against DC 16) and the poor dinosaur will waste his turns attacking a warrior with seemingly surreal agility (or any Large creature that it would see as a threat, I admit lacking imagination here) that manages to evade bites and instead remove teeths one at a time. Meanwhile, I can either smack the thing close range (with Booming Blade just to be sure it won't move from the Phantasmal Force) or just use Repelling Blast / Thorns Whip to bring him back near the illusion in case he decides it's too difficult and decides to move away (which goes again the hypothesis given by OP though: T-REX should always attack the nearest target).
Normally, party should be safe quite a few rounds. ;)

5. Flying Monkeys.
a) still a 2nd spell slot (I should): Darkness, in which party can hide while devising a strategy using it as cover, while I spend some turns Repelling Blast or outright killing monkeys.
Or, if it's not banned per OP (not sure) and monkeys tend to group in some heights, Moonbeam: deals damage, can be moved, no need to come outside from darkness. Can be used to funnel monkeys or in combination with Repelling Blast (instead of moving it).

What do you think?
Honestly for the sake of this particular exercise, Ancients Paladin 7 is overkill since the magic threat is very limited: I think Vengeance Paladin 6 / Warlock 4 would be far better (one more ASI for Sentinel or Inspiring Leader, one more spell known). But as I said, I tried to make a build that I would actually play in any campaign. ;)
Also, you can notice that Paladin's own feature do not come that often. Apart from the particular first encounter (and even then), a Paladin 1 (or even better Life Cleric by dumping STR to push WIS to 13) / Lore Bard 6 / Warlock 3 could have done roughly the same. :)

Now for one proposition that is more geared towards short-rest
Second proposition

=== Character build ===
Race: Wood-Elf
Classes: Life Cleric 3 / Druid 1 / Long Death Monk 6
Attributes post-racial, pre-level (* denotes racial bonus):
STR 10 / DEX 16* / CON 14 / INT 8 / WIS 16* / CHA 10
Skills: Athletics, Perception (Sailor Background), Acrobatics, Stealth (Monk).
ASIs: first, used on +2 WIS.
Armor Class: Unarmored + leather shield (AC 18) or without shield (AC 16).
Saves bonus (* denotes proficiency, ** denotes advantage, includes all permanent benefits):
STR +0, DEX +3, CON +2, INT -1, WIS* +8, CHA* +4.
Spell Save DC: 8+4+4 = 16

Racial benefits
Darkvision
35 feet movement (note I didn't take Aarakocra because I was not sure, but otherwise this would be the best race).
Longbow proficiency.

Caster benefits
Life Cleric's prepared spells (* denotes "auto" spells): Bless*, Cure Wounds*, Command, Healing Words, Shield of Faith, Sanctuary, Lesser Restoration*, Spiritual Weapon*, Blindness, Warding Bond, Guiding Bolt.
Cleric cantrips: Guidance, Sacred Flame.
Life benefit: better healing.
Channel Divinity: bonus action mass Healing Words.
Druid's prepared spells: Goodberry, Longstrider, Entangle, Faerie Fire, Earth Tremor.
Druid cantrips: Thorns Whip, Produce Flame, Frostbite.
Druid benefit: Wild Shape.
Spell slots: 4*1st, 3*2nd.

Monk benefits
Martial Arts (incompatible with shield or longbow).
Extra 15 feet speed.
Dodge/Dash/Disengage as bonus action for a Ki.
"Extra Attack" as a bonus action for a Ki
Magical Extra Attack.
Stunning Strike.
"Mass Fear" as an action.

=== General strategies ===
Disclaimer: this is also a character that I'd like to play in most campaign, although certainly less "tanky" than the previous one. :)

This character is obviously extremely conservative of his slots, usually Blessing / Shield of Faithing himself, somethings using a Longstrider on self. Whenever slots are available at the end of the day, he blows everything on Life Goodberries which he distributes to everyone.
So he effectively provides an out-of-fight healing equal to 3*5+4*4 = 31HP.

=== Tactics for these 5 encounters ===
For the sake of this exercise, I'll consider the party had a full rest day before, so Monk could blow all his slots on Life Goodberries.
1. Fire Giant + Enchanter
This one will be tough: provided Monk succeeds on save, he will move straight to the Giant and use Extra Attack + Stunning Strike. Once succeed, next turn Monk can cast Entangle to luck Giant for good or just take the chance to run straight to Enchanter and do the same.
Or, just cast Blindness on the Giant, although you have a small chance of success so I'd say it's a worse choice (however it could be a great choice on the Enchanter, probably low CON save and need to see target for most spells).
In this fight it's no holds barrel anyways.

2. Goblins.
No great strategy here... Oh yeah, there is: use Fear as an action while you run away, if need be using Dodge as a bonus action if you are the main target.
Still, it's lesser than previous one.

3. Chain Devil
Provided Faerie Fire works, there is your strategy (since either you with Perception + Guidance + potential Help, or Cleric with Detect/Augury, can know the general location of the creature, you can cast it: Faerie Fire does not require you to see ;)). You can then go an Stun him, pull him out of darkness or whatever.
Otherwise, a risky bet would be to cast Faerie Fire on yourself and rush to the general area until you are close to the Devil, then Stun him so a pal can close in without any fear and blow a powerful resource to disable him. But Stun targets CON saves, and Devil has +7 even if it's not a spell per se (so no advantage), chances of success are low.
A better risky bet in other situations would be to Blind the creature, but chance of success here is extremely low because of advantage and high Constitution.
Otherwise, Fear is always a decent protection: not a spell (so no advantage), "only" +4 since targeting WIS.

4. T-Rex.
This one is easy: cast Warding Bond and Shield of Faith on your Cleric pal (which is probably in heavy armor and shield), have him be the one standing near the T-Rex, use Fear as an action.
Or just cast Spiritual Weapon and Shield of Faith yourself, using either spiritual weapon or Dodge on subsequent turns.

5. Flying Monkeys.
Spiritual Weapon + Fear as an action or Faerie Fire to help your friends take care of it quickly should be good enough.


What do you think? Note that you could take Shadow Way to use the same Darkness related tactics as proposed in the previous build.
Also, if prebuffing is not a thing, then ditching Life / Druid combo and instead take plain Light Cleric 4 ("protect others" as a reaction, Faerie Fire) or Nature (Thorns Whip) would be better: an ASI you can blow on maxing WIS, getting Mobile feat or Inspiring Leader.

MaxWilson
2017-06-22, 05:16 PM
2. Goblins.
Disclaimer: not sure I understood how it went, so I'll do both cases.

a) Goblins always come from behind us.
I cast a Phantasmal Force of a lava torrent or anything else that would stop them right in their tracks for a while.


Nitpick: Phantasmal Force only affects a single target, so you're only stopping one kobold.

Citan
2017-06-22, 05:53 PM
Nitpick: Phantasmal Force only affects a single target, so you're only stopping one kobold.
Oh my god, how could I miss that? Thanks a bunch, that's not nit-picking, that's addressing the elephant in the room. Well, I'll have to correct, but tomorrow, really too late for me now.

So, by the way, which illusion spell is one that can affect several creatures (because I'm pretty sure there is such one!)?

Corran
2017-06-22, 05:59 PM
So, by the way, which illusion spell is one that can affect several creatures (because I'm pretty sure there is such one!)?
Perhaps major image or hallucinatory terrain would do the trick you want (but they are higher level spells, 3rd and 4th respctively if I am not mistaken). Silent image and minor illusion also affect everyone as far as I remember, but I am not sure if the terrain favors them (you would need a 5 feet cube opening for them to work right, as far as I can understand).

Easy_Lee
2017-06-22, 06:31 PM
Iron scoundrel time.

Han: once a mason, then a thief, then a soldier, now the most resourceful non-caster you know. He is mundane as they come, and yet has an answer for just about everything. He has a thick German accent, for some reason, and is fond of showing off his vast arsenal of items. “LET ME SHOW YOU ITS FEATURES!”

Point-buy Variant Human 14/16/14/8/12/10

5 Fighter Battle Master / 5 Rogue Thief
Feats & features:

Healer (vhuman)
Shield master (rogue 4)
Medium armor master (fighter 4)
Expertise: Athletics and Stealth
3D6 sneak attack
Fast Hands
Second-Story Work
Uncanny dodge
Fighting style: Protection
Action Surge
Second wind
Manuevers: Distracting Strike, Maneuvering Attack, Menacing Attack
Extra attack
Tool proficiency: Thieves' tools, mason's tools, leatherworker's tools

Equipment: half plate, rapier, shield
Inventory: Han carries ball bearings, caltrops, crowbar, alchemist fire, grappling hook, rope, manacles, hammer and pistons, thieves' tools, two nets, mason's tools, leatherworker's tools, a shovel, holy water, and a few healer’s kits.
How does he carry all that? Custom-made backpack, as he's proficient with leatherworker's tools. "LET ME SHOW YOU ITS FEATURES!"

AC: 20
HP: ~80
Attack bonus: +3
Ideal damage / round: 2D8+3D6+6. He's likely to get it because he can bonus action shove targets to the ground with his shield, with expertise.

Thief + Healer combo: Han can heal his allies as a bonus action once per short rest per ally. Han can also stabilize an unconscious ally and bring them back into a fight with one hp (Healer feat), as a bonus action, unlimited times. In a pinch, he can Action Surge and bring three allies back from unconscious to one HP. This combo is gold.

General Guidelines: Han will take the rest when his allies decide they need it. Few of his features rely too heavily on it, and he's still very effective without it. Healer and Second Wind will help him and his allies stay at reasonable HP totals between rests.


Sneak up on the enchanter (stealth expertise) and do one of the following, depending on the DM and situation:

Attack him, action surge, and attack him again. 4d8+3d6+12. One of those attacks is a distracting strike. Next ally has advantage to hit the Enchanter. Combined with Han's high dexterity, the enchanter is likely to be dead before he gets a spell off, or by round 2 at the latest.
Grapple the Enchanter and drag him into middle of allies. The Enchanter will be dead in short order, regardless of what he does. This negates tentacles, as no self-respecting caster will cast that on himself.
(If you have a fun DM) Use action to apply manacles to one of the enchanter’s hands and a bonus action (thief) to use them on the other. Enchanter now has both hands bound and cannot cast spells with somatic components. You now have a prisoner.
The fire giant may choose to attack Han. If so, he's unlikely to accomplish much due to uncanny dodge + 20 AC. If he attacks an ally, maneuver into place and use protection to impose disadvantage on the giant's attacks. Han’s attacks now apply sneak attack once per round.

Shield master and dexterity save proficiency will help here, as missile weapons and traditional traps are unlikely to hit Han. Use caltrops, ball bearings, and alchemist fire against scorpions and kobolds, as needed. Use protection to disadvantage attacks against allies. Second-Story Work will let him climb quickly, if needed, and toss a rope for allies.

Use healer’s kit to bring back any allies who fall. Sheath rapier and carry allies (athletics expertise) if needed. Use crowbar as a bonus action (thief) to pry open doors and other barriers or pry heavy objects off of allies, as needed. Can cunning action to dash or pick locks on any locked doors.

Con and Wis saves are a problem. Han will keep an eye out for casters and rely on allies to help him if he falls prey to something nasty.

Have allies move into a corner as a unit, where only one chain can reach them. Use crowbar, hammer, and pitons to jam chain links into the ground, holding them down with athletics expertise and taking two such actions against them per round using thief bonus action to use items and primary action to grapple as needed. While Han handles the chain, the party can handle the devil.

If anything tries to attack a party member, use protection to apply disadvantage. If any ray attacks shoot at Han from the devil, shield master will apply. If allies can dispel darkness or reveal devil, Han can approach devil, grapple devil with athletic expertise, and use cunning action dash to drag him most of the way to allies in a single turn. He could also opt to knock the devil prone (shield master) and maneuvering strike an ally into position to dispatch it.

If allies fall, healer’s kit will bring them back into the fight as a bonus action. As a reminder, Han can bring two allies back from unconscious to stable and one HP in a single round, due to thief bonus action. If Han is in trouble, he can second wind to heal himself.

Han will use Holy Water on the devil given the opportunity, just to piss it off.

Menacing strike and distracting strike will make short work of this monster, making it flee and giving allies advantage on their attacks. Even if it attacks, Han can impose disadvantage or use uncanny dodge to halve the damage, assuming it hits at all with Han’s 20AC.

Allies surround Han. He can defend them with protection and an upraised shield. He can throw nets at monkeys to bring them crashing painfully to the ground if they fail their save. If apes try to grapple an ally, Han can shove them away with athletics expertise.

As usual, Han can heal or stabilize and bring to one HP any allies who need it. If DM allows, Han can also use grappling hook, or a rope tied to a dagger as a bonus action (thief), to strike flying monkeys and pull them to the ground.

Monkeys won't be a problem. Han has countered both of their methods of attack. Leave allies to kill them. Even if they pick someone up and drop them on Han, Han will avoid it with his high dexterity save that may also qualify for shield master.

Additionally, if a monkey tries to fly away with a party member, they'll probably provoke an attack of opportunity, + sneak attack from Han.
Conclusion: Han uses creative solutions and defensive tactics to neutralize every threat, giving his allies a chance to shine. Han’s wide variety of items, and ability to use up to two in a single round, make him a versatile party member. His ability to bring up to two allies back into the fight an infinite number of times per day in a single round, as long as he has enough healer’s kits, is immensely beneficial when things go south. Opponents will struggle to bring Han down, to even get to his allies.

With his wide variety of items and the sheer number of options he has in any given round, you'd swear he was a caster. But he isn't. He's just Han.

His ideal party members are able to assist with his weak saves (charisma and intellect, in particular). He's fond of bards and paladins.

MaxWilson
2017-06-22, 06:47 PM
[RE: Kobolds]Use healer’s kit to bring back any allies who fall. Sheath rapier and carry allies (athletics expertise) if needed. Use crowbar as a bonus action (thief) to pry open doors and other barriers or pry heavy objects off of allies, as needed. Can cunning action to dash or pick locks on any locked doors.

Note that any allies who fall will be restored to 1 HP by your healing kit, but they still have to burn movement standing back up (or just crawl to the exit). Someone who starts their turn prone can either Dash for a total of 20 feet of crawling movement (1' costs 3' due to difficult terrain + crawling), or stand up (costs 15') and Dash 22.5' (1' costs 2' due to difficult terrain). In the worst case scenario it may take the party 7-8 rounds to get away from the kobolds (if they keep knocking the same guy out each turn, but not killing him) instead of only 5.

Citan
2017-06-23, 06:29 AM
Perhaps major image or hallucinatory terrain would do the trick you want (but they are higher level spells, 3rd and 4th respctively if I am not mistaken). Silent image and minor illusion also affect everyone as far as I remember, but I am not sure if the terrain favors them (you would need a 5 feet cube opening for them to work right, as far as I can understand).
Yeah, I think I made the confusion with Silent Image because I was persuaded it was a low-level spell. Thanks ;)

Iron scoundrel time.

Han: once a mason, then a thief, then a soldier, now the most resourceful non-caster you know. He is mundane as they come, and yet has an answer for just about everything. He has a thick German accent, for some reason, and is fond of showing off his vast arsenal of items. “LET ME SHOW YOU ITS FEATURES!”

Point-buy Variant Human 14/16/14/8/12/10

5 Fighter Battle Master / 5 Rogue Thief
Feats & features:

Healer (vhuman)
Shield master (rogue 4)
Medium armor master (fighter 4)
Expertise: Athletics and Stealth
3D6 sneak attack
Fast Hands
Second-Story Work
Uncanny dodge
Fighting style: Protection
Action Surge
Second wind
Manuevers: Distracting Strike, Maneuvering Attack, Menacing Attack
Extra attack
Tool proficiency: Thieves' tools, mason's tools, leatherworker's tools

Equipment: half plate, rapier, shield
Inventory: Han carries ball bearings, caltrops, crowbar, alchemist fire, grappling hook, rope, manacles, hammer and pistons, thieves' tools, two nets, mason's tools, leatherworker's tools, a shovel, holy water, and a few healer’s kits.
How does he carry all that? Custom-made backpack, as he's proficient with leatherworker's tools. "LET ME SHOW YOU ITS FEATURES!"

AC: 20
HP: ~80
Attack bonus: +3
Ideal damage / round: 2D8+3D6+6. He's likely to get it because he can bonus action shove targets to the ground with his shield, with expertise.

Thief + Healer combo: Han can heal his allies as a bonus action once per short rest per ally. Han can also stabilize an unconscious ally and bring them back into a fight with one hp (Healer feat), as a bonus action, unlimited times. In a pinch, he can Action Surge and bring three allies back from unconscious to one HP. This combo is gold.

General Guidelines: Han will take the rest when his allies decide they need it. Few of his features rely too heavily on it, and he's still very effective without it. Healer and Second Wind will help him and his allies stay at reasonable HP totals between rests.


Sneak up on the enchanter (stealth expertise) and do one of the following, depending on the DM and situation:

Attack him, action surge, and attack him again. 4d8+3d6+12. One of those attacks is a distracting strike. Next ally has advantage to hit the Enchanter. Combined with Han's high dexterity, the enchanter is likely to be dead before he gets a spell off, or by round 2 at the latest.
Grapple the Enchanter and drag him into middle of allies. The Enchanter will be dead in short order, regardless of what he does. This negates tentacles, as no self-respecting caster will cast that on himself.
(If you have a fun DM) Use action to apply manacles to one of the enchanter’s hands and a bonus action (thief) to use them on the other. Enchanter now has both hands bound and cannot cast spells with somatic components. You now have a prisoner.
The fire giant may choose to attack Han. If so, he's unlikely to accomplish much due to uncanny dodge + 20 AC. If he attacks an ally, maneuver into place and use protection to impose disadvantage on the giant's attacks. Han’s attacks now apply sneak attack once per round.

Shield master and dexterity save proficiency will help here, as missile weapons and traditional traps are unlikely to hit Han. Use caltrops, ball bearings, and alchemist fire against scorpions and kobolds, as needed. Use protection to disadvantage attacks against allies. Second-Story Work will let him climb quickly, if needed, and toss a rope for allies.

Use healer’s kit to bring back any allies who fall. Sheath rapier and carry allies (athletics expertise) if needed. Use crowbar as a bonus action (thief) to pry open doors and other barriers or pry heavy objects off of allies, as needed. Can cunning action to dash or pick locks on any locked doors.

Con and Wis saves are a problem. Han will keep an eye out for casters and rely on allies to help him if he falls prey to something nasty.

Have allies move into a corner as a unit, where only one chain can reach them. Use crowbar, hammer, and pitons to jam chain links into the ground, holding them down with athletics expertise and taking two such actions against them per round using thief bonus action to use items and primary action to grapple as needed. While Han handles the chain, the party can handle the devil.

If anything tries to attack a party member, use protection to apply disadvantage. If any ray attacks shoot at Han from the devil, shield master will apply. If allies can dispel darkness or reveal devil, Han can approach devil, grapple devil with athletic expertise, and use cunning action dash to drag him most of the way to allies in a single turn. He could also opt to knock the devil prone (shield master) and maneuvering strike an ally into position to dispatch it.

If allies fall, healer’s kit will bring them back into the fight as a bonus action. As a reminder, Han can bring two allies back from unconscious to stable and one HP in a single round, due to thief bonus action. If Han is in trouble, he can second wind to heal himself.

Han will use Holy Water on the devil given the opportunity, just to piss it off.

Menacing strike and distracting strike will make short work of this monster, making it flee and giving allies advantage on their attacks. Even if it attacks, Han can impose disadvantage or use uncanny dodge to halve the damage, assuming it hits at all with Han’s 20AC.

Allies surround Han. He can defend them with protection and an upraised shield. He can throw nets at monkeys to bring them crashing painfully to the ground if they fail their save. If apes try to grapple an ally, Han can shove them away with athletics expertise.

As usual, Han can heal or stabilize and bring to one HP any allies who need it. If DM allows, Han can also use grappling hook, or a rope tied to a dagger as a bonus action (thief), to strike flying monkeys and pull them to the ground.

Monkeys won't be a problem. Han has countered both of their methods of attack. Leave allies to kill them. Even if they pick someone up and drop them on Han, Han will avoid it with his high dexterity save that may also qualify for shield master.

Additionally, if a monkey tries to fly away with a party member, they'll probably provoke an attack of opportunity, + sneak attack from Han.
Conclusion: Han uses creative solutions and defensive tactics to neutralize every threat, giving his allies a chance to shine. Han’s wide variety of items, and ability to use up to two in a single round, make him a versatile party member. His ability to bring up to two allies back into the fight an infinite number of times per day in a single round, as long as he has enough healer’s kits, is immensely beneficial when things go south. Opponents will struggle to bring Han down, to even get to his allies.

With his wide variety of items and the sheer number of options he has in any given round, you'd swear he was a caster. But he isn't. He's just Han.

His ideal party members are able to assist with his weak saves (charisma and intellect, in particular). He's fond of bards and paladins.
Ahem.
I like your build in general, but just in first encounter I see a big problem: how are you supposed to "sneak" behind the enchanter? Per OP, it's just a big, straight hallway, no precision about lighting but there is no reason why the enchanter would stay in the dark so it's supposedly lighted. So there is no way to get by unseen unless either an ally (forbidden by OP) or yourself (but I don't see how really) manage to break line of sight. Also, considering the Giant is in the middle you will sustain an opportunity attack. Only a Lightfoot Halfling could Hide then make a ranged attack, but I don't see how you can sneak all the way.

If you really wanted to manage a surprise attack, then Battlemaster 4 / Shadow Monk 6 with Sentinel would be much better: either using Action Surge to cast Darkness from you stand or where you want to end, depending on whether there is an area of dim light reachable before/after.
Or rushing through with Dash as bonus action + Action Surge Dash, even if you get hit by Fire Giant in the process (unless you use the "added AC on the move" manoeuver), before casting Silence just as you arrive in Enchanter's vicinity. Chances are you are gonna lock him at least a turn, because if he moves he risks an OA from you. And on a hit (high chance thanks to Precision Attack) you just put him down for good. Then you can just stand behind him (in case Giant tries to throw things at you) and just pummel him

OR, you could just go Battlemaster 6 / Thief 4 with Ritual Caster and DEX bump: either you shoot from afar (you took Sharpshooter), using Disarm Attack, to make Enchanter drop his focus, then ask your familiar to retrieve it.
Or you prepared a Phantom Steed, uses it to go straight to the caster and smack him good (with or without Mounted Combatant). Note that technically thanks to Action Surge Dashing you could go all the way, Grab the Enchanter, then Action Surge Dash back to your group. Enchanter is dead by turn 2 if he failed the Dominate. XD

And now, time for a new proposition
Third proposition

=== Character build ===
Race: Wood-Elf
Classes: Moon Druid 10
Attributes post-racial, pre-level (* denotes racial bonus):
STR 10 / DEX 16* / CON 14 / INT 8 / WIS 16* / CHA 10
Skills: Sleight of Hand, Stealth (Urchin Background),Arcana, Insight (Druid).
ASIs: first, used on +2 WIS. Second: used on... Don't know really, probably Mobile, Sentinel or Mage Slayer. I'll just note in parenthesis when other options could help, but otherwise consider I just went with Sentinel.
Armor Class: Leather armor + shield (15? if I'm not mistaken).
Saves bonus (* denotes proficiency, ** denotes advantage, includes all permanent benefits):
STR +0, DEX +3, CON +2, INT* +3, WIS* +8, CHA +0.
Spell Save DC: 8+4+4 = 16

Racial benefits
Darkvision
35 feet movement (note I didn't take Aarakocra because I was not sure, but otherwise this would be the best race).
Longbow proficiency.
Perception proficiency.

Caster benefits
Druid cantrips: Thorns Whip, Produce Flame, Frostbite.
Druid's prepared spells: Goodberry, Heat Metal, Entangle, Faerie Fire, Earth Tremor, Fog Cloud, Moonbeam, Pass Without Trace, Flaming Sphere, Conjure Animals, Healing Word, Plant Growth, Wind Wall, Conjure Woodlands Being.
(ditched Wall of Stone because of OP's strange request, but not so bad though).

Druid benefit: Wild Shape, up to CR 3 creatures and Elementals, 2* short rest as bonus action.
Spell slots: 4*1, 3*2, 3*3, 3*4, 2*5

=== General strategies ===
Disclaimer: choice of spells has been harsh because of OP's restrictions, still, a good half of them are spells I'd keep prepared on any Druid. ;)

=== Tactics for these 5 encounters ===
For the sake of this exercise, I'll consider the party had a full rest day before, so I could blow all my spells slots on Goodberries, providing a total healing of 1*10*(4+3+3+3+2) = 10*15 = 150 hp distributed among party for out of fight healing.

1. Fire Giant + Enchanter
Two main options here: weaken the Fire Giant with a Heat Metal then bypass him on next turn to bring Enchanger back with Thorns Whip, or wild Shape as an Air Elemental and rush straight to the Enchanter if he's reachable (in the case Enchanter is "against" the wall, you'd need Mobile for that I guess) to use Whirlwind as an action, before pummeling him on next turn. Mainly depends on order of Initiative here: I wouldn't risk putting Enchanter prone if my whole party didn't act yet). Also note that using Whirlwind on Giant could be a thing if a) he far enough from party to have no risk of flying into them and b) I'm first acting.
Note that Moon Druid has a high chance of avoiding Dominate (84%), but also a high chance of avoiding Tentacles (Air Elemental is immune, or you could get into other forms that have a high DEX save).


2. Goblins.
No great strategy here... But a pretty decent one imo: cast a Conjure Animals to bring animals that will each provide cover to a member of party or stay behind and act as meat barrier if enemies come always from the same place. Or, depending on if you can choose or not and tunnels are large enough, cast a bunch of Giant Bats or Giant Owls to carry each of you to safety (flying speed 60)
Or, in case goblins are always coming from one main tunnel behind, just cast Plant Growth and laugh away.

Thought first about Pass Without Trace, but with "infinite goblins" you are bound to always have at least one that detects you and warns others so...

3. Chain Devil
Simplest: Wild Shape as a Fire Elemental, go and pummel him, you shed enough light for your party to be unhindered (30+30 feet).
Or, cast Flaming Sphere then Wild Shape as an Earth Elemental: you don't care about darkness since Earthtremor sense, you have actually better protection since you can burrow (so he just cannot attack you if you want, or you can sustain attacks thanks to great AC and HP) and you still provide ample light for your party (20+20).
So you negated the darkness for the party, with Sentinel you can keep him in check, and your party can just gang on one side so only one chain is really dangerous.

4. T-Rex.
This one is easy: cast Earth Tremor to make him prone if your party has some melee options (75% chance of success), then with Sentinel you can keep him in check, or just Conjure Animals to swarm him while everyone else hits him from a range.
Provided the party took a short rest, you could easily Wild Shape as a Fire Elemental for added damage (putting T-Rex on Fire) or Earth Elemental for extra tankiness.
Party should take no damage here.

5. Flying Monkeys.
Cast Conjure Woodlands Being to get Pixies to Polymorph your party, or Sleep on small groups of Monkey...
Or conjure Sprites to greatly help with the damage per turn, even if they are targeted first by monkeys as consequence.
Or cast Wind Wall to protect your party in one central place (make a circular Wind Wall, so monkeys have to go straight above party to attack, with party Readying to unleash an AOE or simple cantrips / arrows) then Wild Shape as an Air Elemental (provided a short rest since we already used WS two times) and use Whirlwind (fall prone = no fly speed IIRC so fall damage = possible death) on a group then just fighting the others.
Or just cast a Fog Cloud for the party before going Air Elemental if you think it's better.
In any way, party should yet again suffer very minimal damage.


What do you think? From my point of view, the "worst" encounter is the goblin one and he's still managing fairly. On all others, should be great. No? Especially since my suggested tactics didn't expense all his resources at all and, while getting a short rest would help, he could actually manage easily without (did expense around half his spellcasting only). ;)

MaxWilson
2017-06-23, 08:13 AM
Yeah, I think I made the confusion with Silent Image because I was persuaded it was a low-level spell. Thanks ;)

Ahem.
I like your build in general, but just in first encounter I see a big problem: how are you supposed to "sneak" behind the enchanter? Per OP, it's just a big, straight hallway, no precision about lighting but there is no reason why the enchanter would stay in the dark so it's supposedly lighted. So there is no way to get by unseen unless either an ally (forbidden by OP) or yourself (but I don't see how really) manage to break line of sight. Also, considering the Giant is in the middle you will sustain an opportunity attack.

Also, while you are busy sneaking, the giant is chucking rocks at your wizard. The fact that you have zero control over all your crazy fellow PCs means you have to get out there and start tanking ASAP--you can't rely on CAW strategies like you would in a game where all the PCs are sane and reasonably tactically-aware. :-P

Citan
2017-06-23, 08:18 AM
Also, while you are busy sneaking, the giant is chucking rocks at your wizard. The fact that you have zero control over all your crazy fellow PCs means you have to get out there and start tanking ASAP--you can't rely on CAW strategies like you would in a game where all the PCs are sane and reasonably tactically-aware. :-P
Well, I'd say, if the Wizard is stupid enough to not even have Shield prepared, he deserves to die in the first place. MWHAHAHAHAHA! :smallbiggrin:

While on the topic, I agree that the fact party is blatantly stupid makes the exercise much harder. Why for example, wouldn't a Cleric have a Bless at the ready, or at least a Shield of Faith cast on 2nd turn when he realizes a Fire Giant is just attacking the Wizard?
Why couldn't the Wizard just cast a Darkness or even a Greater Invisibility (you egoist)? Or just a Grease to make him fall?
Against Chain Devil, why wouldn't the Cleric cast some protection spell? Etc etc.
Well, I know why in fact: too difficult for OP to create a "true" party, and would face many counter-propositions as to what tactics the other members could use.

Still, a minimum of awareness would not hurt. XD

Easy_Lee
2017-06-23, 09:05 AM
Well, I'd say, if the Wizard is stupid enough to not even have Shield prepared, he deserves to die in the first place. MWHAHAHAHAHA! :smallbiggrin:

While on the topic, I agree that the fact party is blatantly stupid makes the exercise much harder. Why for example, wouldn't a Cleric have a Bless at the ready, or at least a Shield of Faith cast on 2nd turn when he realizes a Fire Giant is just attacking the Wizard?
Why couldn't the Wizard just cast a Darkness or even a Greater Invisibility (you egoist)? Or just a Grease to make him fall?
Against Chain Devil, why wouldn't the Cleric cast some protection spell? Etc etc.
Well, I know why in fact: too difficult for OP to create a "true" party, and would face many counter-propositions as to what tactics the other members could use.

Still, a minimum of awareness would not hurt. XD

Another good question: how would you persuade self-respecting players to walk down a hallway with a fire giant and an enchanter at the end of it? Can't speak for anyone else, but as a player, I just wouldn't do it. I'd find another route, setup some sort of ambush, or otherwise avoid the obvious trap.

Citan
2017-06-23, 09:23 AM
Another good question: how would you persuade self-respecting players to walk down a hallway with a fire giant and an enchanter at the end of it? Can't speak for anyone else, but as a player, I just wouldn't do it. I'd find another route, setup some sort of ambush, or otherwise avoid the obvious trap.
Well, behind those two is a room that is otherwise magically sealed, which upon opening will instantly materializes the one greatest wish you had, whether you are aware of it or not.
Problem, only way to open it is defeating the enchanter and Giant, who have been magically enchanted to never need any sleep or other form of sustainment, and are automatically restored to full health and abilities every 8 hours.

Motivated enough now? :smallbiggrin:

Maxilian
2017-06-23, 09:51 AM
Well, behind those two is a room that is otherwise magically sealed, which upon opening will instantly materializes the one greatest wish you had, whether you are aware of it or not.
Problem, only way to open it is defeating the enchanter and Giant, who have been magically enchanted to never need any sleep or other form of sustainment, and are automatically restored to full health and abilities every 8 hours.

Motivated enough now? :smallbiggrin:

So... make the Cleric give Advantage to the Bard in Cha to persuade and talk them into the idea of getting into the Wish room so we can all get what we want (or ask for the Enchanter hands on marriage, whatever you prefer)

Shining Wrath
2017-06-23, 10:06 AM
The reason the rest of the party is dumb is that I'm trying to judge optimization of your tank build, not optimization of a 4-member party to make your particular tank build shine.

A "build a 4-member party to face these 5 encounters" contest would have different rules, and might be interesting, but that is not this thread. In order to focus attention on the capabilities of one PC, the "tank", the others have to be as "generic" as possible, so I have abstracted them as a source of damage rather than as manipulators of the battlespace.

If you think of it as a D&D game where you're the veteran player running the tank trying to keep the 3 n00bs alive it may help.

Shining Wrath
2017-06-23, 10:10 AM
Another good question: how would you persuade self-respecting players to walk down a hallway with a fire giant and an enchanter at the end of it? Can't speak for anyone else, but as a player, I just wouldn't do it. I'd find another route, setup some sort of ambush, or otherwise avoid the obvious trap.

Assume it's a dungeon. Behind you is a lot of stuff you don't want to retrace; ahead of you is POWER OVERWHELMING, or the Princess you have to rescue, or Phat Lewt, or whatever would motivate your PC. And you have no reason to believe there's any way forward other than going through these 5 rooms in the sequence presented. In fact, a 31st level Diviner (Lawful Good) has told you, cross her heart and hope to die, that your party will go through these 5 rooms in exactly this order, or extremely bad things will happen to you and everyone else in the Multiverse.

No, not that bad. Much, much, worse.
Worse than that, even.
Endless Nickleback soundtrack playing at 120 db everywhere? Ah, now you're getting close.

Easy_Lee
2017-06-23, 01:10 PM
Assume it's a dungeon. Behind you is a lot of stuff you don't want to retrace; ahead of you is POWER OVERWHELMING, or the Princess you have to rescue, or Phat Lewt, or whatever would motivate your PC. And you have no reason to believe there's any way forward other than going through these 5 rooms in the sequence presented. In fact, a 31st level Diviner (Lawful Good) has told you, cross her heart and hope to die, that your party will go through these 5 rooms in exactly this order, or extremely bad things will happen to you and everyone else in the Multiverse.

No, not that bad. Much, much, worse.
Worse than that, even.
Endless Nickleback soundtrack playing at 120 db everywhere? Ah, now you're getting close.

Han will just plug his ears with padding from some armor, in the latter case.

My angle is this principle: no problem has only one solution. I created a tank with stealth so he's more likely to be properly positioned -- in the front, beside the primary adversary -- than other tanks. I could have used a polearm master sentinel shadow monk to similar effect, locking down dangerous targets to keep them away from the party. Or, I could make a caster who specializes in espionage, just skip all conflict, and call that "damage avoidance."

But that's boring. I wanted a classic, classy tank. The iron scoundrel uses a sword and shield, is mundane as they come, and does his job in a vast array of situations. With the combination of high AC, strong defensive options for himself and his allies, mundane healing abilities, little reliance on rests, and Fast Hands / cunning action shenanigans, the iron scoundrel ought function in any party that needs a tank.

Just as importantly, he doesn't steal the spotlight. I built a team-player, not a Mary Sue.

I think he handles the challenges well. If the only issue is sneaking up to the enchanter, I'm sure there's some way the iron scoundrel can do it. Maybe he uses a disguise, maybe he waits until nightfall, maybe he waits until the enchanter or fire giant have to go to the bathroom, maybe a party member assists. Regardless, I don't think that's much of a sticking point.

MaxWilson
2017-06-23, 01:27 PM
Well, behind those two is a room that is otherwise magically sealed, which upon opening will instantly materializes the one greatest wish you had, whether you are aware of it or not.
Problem, only way to open it is defeating the enchanter and Giant, who have been magically enchanted to never need any sleep or other form of sustainment, and are automatically restored to full health and abilities every 8 hours.

Motivated enough now? :smallbiggrin:

Not quite--you need to create a sense of urgency. How about if, instead of rejuvenating after 8 hours, they and the room vanish after five minutes and won't appear again for ten thousand years?

Citan
2017-06-23, 02:24 PM
Han will just plug his ears with padding from some armor, in the latter case.

My angle is this principle: no problem has only one solution. I created a tank with stealth so he's more likely to be properly positioned -- in the front, beside the primary adversary -- than other tanks. I could have used a polearm master sentinel shadow monk to similar effect, locking down dangerous targets to keep them away from the party. Or, I could make a caster who specializes in espionage, just skip all conflict, and call that "damage avoidance."

But that's boring. I wanted a classic, classy tank. The iron scoundrel uses a sword and shield, is mundane as they come, and does his job in a vast array of situations. With the combination of high AC, strong defensive options for himself and his allies, mundane healing abilities, little reliance on rests, and Fast Hands / cunning action shenanigans, the iron scoundrel ought function in any party that needs a tank.

Just as importantly, he doesn't steal the spotlight. I built a team-player, not a Mary Sue.

I think he handles the challenges well. If the only issue is sneaking up to the enchanter, I'm sure there's some way the iron scoundrel can do it. Maybe he uses a disguise, maybe he waits until nightfall, maybe he waits until the enchanter or fire giant have to go to the bathroom, maybe a party member assists. Regardless, I don't think that's much of a sticking point.
Well, I'm sorry but after reading your suggestion in detail, I think he actually falls short, significantly behind any other build suggested. Although I found very interesting and smart your way to find tactics relying on mundane actions (such as locking chains down in Chain Devil encounter). Why is that?
- Only a very limited way to directly protect friends in general (Protection: one reaction against a single attack): feeble in first encounter (you're supposedly the only one in front, Giant is throwing rocks, nothing you can do), fail against Kobolds (1 disadvantage for so many attacks) and Monkeys (same), useless against T-Rex. It's only good really only against Devil.
- No way to incite others to attack you or funnel enemies: a problem in first encounter (albeit small: Wizard is supposed to be able to take care of himself a bit with Shield), irrelevant in second, potentially problematic in third, irrelevant in fourth (you lock down T-Rex well, and others are supposed staying back in the first place anyways), potentially problematic in last (if Monkeys want to gang up on someone).
Of course, this is forgetting about Distracting Strike and Menacing Strike: the latter particularly could have been used to great effect on Fire Giant, although you chose another way. Against Kobolds it's nigh useless though, and same against Chain Devil because you cannot see the enemy. Great against T-Rex though, and useful against Monkeys, provided you took a short rest in-between: you have only 4 die after all.
- Limited healing, even if it's a very effective trick: provided you used Healer's Kit preventively (aka without waiting for people to drop), you can heal each of them for up to 1d6+14 HP which is objectively great for a non-caster or a caster alikes. But it's yet again only one heal per turn, and one per short rest. So it will boil down on how Kobolds encounter unravel because it will probably be the most taxing on global HP pool. With some bad luck, people will still go down, even with you preventively healing and Bard/Cleric distributing Healing Words.

Well, to be honest though, I'm painting the situation ultra-black: normally, Cleric should use Warding Bonds on Wizard, then sustain Beacon of Hope to maximize all healing. Wizard should have some Shield left too, and Bard could cast Invisibility on any one. In general, you would not be alone to bear the burden of preventing damage. So your character actually works much much better in reality provided players are not self-destructive or plain stupid.
But for this theorical thing... I'd say nope. ;)

By the way, a quickie fourth suggestion as a dedication to *someone*. :)

Fourth proposition

=== Character build ===
Race: Variant Human for a change
Classes: Lore Bard 10
Attributes post-racial, pre-level (* denotes racial bonus), standard array for a change:
STR 10 / DEX 14* / CON 14 / INT 8 / WIS 12 / CHA 16*
Skills: too many to list: basically at least Stealth, Perception, Insight, Acrobatics, Athletics, Arcana, Religion, Persuasion.
ASIs: Variant Human feat: Moderately Armored. 1st ASI: Inspiring Leader. Second ASI: Spell Sniper: Eldricht Blast.
Armor Class: Best medium armor + shield = 19 AC.
Saves bonus (* denotes proficiency, ** denotes advantage, includes all permanent benefits):
STR +0, DEX +6, CON +2, INT -1, WIS +1, CHA +7.
Spell Save DC: 8+4+3 = 15

Racial benefits
Additional skill, feat.

Caster benefits
Lore Bard cantrips: Vicious Mockery, Blade Ward, Minor Illusion.
Bard's known spells (* denotes Magic Secrets): Healing Words, Longstrider, Silent Image, Enhance Ability, Invisibility, Heat Metal, Phantasmal Force, Suggestion, Darkness*, Pass Without Trace* (for this particular scenario, I prefer ditching this one which has no use for) Sanctuary*, Dispel Magic, Bestow Curse, Counterspell*, Flaming Sphere* (IF DM rules that its light cannot live in 7th level Darkness, I take Compelled Duel instead), Plant Growth, Greater Invisibility, (Circle of Power* will actually be learned later in fact), Animate Objects.
Spell slots: 4*1, 3*2, 3*3, 3*4, 2*5

=== General strategies ===

=== Tactics for these 5 encounters ===
For the sake of this exercise, I'll consider the party had a full rest day before and I prebuffed them for 13 THP (Inspiring Leader).

1. Fire Giant + Enchanter
Two main options here: cast a Darkness that I throw behind the Giant to block enchanter's view, or first cast Heat Metal on the Giant then Blindness on the Enchanter next turn.
NOTE (thanks to Corran): Fire Giant being immune to fire, does not suffer the damage (dumb me). By RAW though, should still suffer the disadvantage, as weird as it may be. May be worth a debate here as to RAI. ^^ If DM rules a "no", then I would probably focus directly on enchanter: casting Blindness at him (range? AFB) or directly blasting Eldricht Blast (SPell Sniper = ignore Giant cover, I suppose I could launch the rays between legs).

Of course, I use Counterspell on the Enchanter as needed because I'm weak against many spells. Especially Dominate: if I miss the Counterspell, chances of avoiding the Dominate are low, even with advantage thanks to Fey Ancestry: only 43%.
OR, depending on DM ruling, cast Suggestion on the Giant: "I will die if I fight them, I should ally with them instead". So Fire Giant attacks the enchanter. Done.

Third way depending on chosen Magic Secrets: cast Compelled Duel on Giant, then just spend time Dodging, maybe casting a Sanctuary to help. You don't contribute to damage at all though (and Enchanger probably won't let you alone either).

2. Goblins.
Start with Darkness cast on a stone that I hold.
If AOE spells seems to be a thing after 1/2 turns, cast Circle of Power instead, although it's a bit sad.
I was wondering about instead casting Pass Without Trace + upcast Invisibility then everyone Hide, but same as before, I think it's vowed to fail because of the number of enemies? With that said, they have a low Perception so it may work... No time to check the maths now though.
NOTE from Corran: I may probably lose concentration early, even with 19 AC, considering number of attacks.
Counter-note: if Cleric was stupid enough not to buff me particularly (Sanctuary / Shield of Faith / Warding Bond), we could consider metagaming and switch Circle of Power for Sanctuary. :) OR, since MaxWilson pointed out that Pass Without Trace is a concentration spell (so no stacking with Darkness), Magic Secrets Sanctuary if you really want to.
Also, now that I think about it, I don't see why people would do anything else than Dodge (unless sustained damage per turn is too dangerous, in which case it would be an obvious Dash).

Or swap Resilient: Wisdom for Resilient: Constitution, but then I'm pretty sure to fail Dominate Person in first encounter -provided I fail on Counterspell though-, and that would be bad news.

3. Chain Devil
Flaming Sphere FTW if its lights surpasses Darkness (I'm really not sure in fact, waiting for feedback here).
Otherwise, Animate Objects FTW, they have blindsense so don't care about Darkness. ;)
NOTE from Corran: arguably it would be weird that light from a 2nd level spell would disperse magic from a 7th level spell (although, on a reverse note, you could say that it's just a magical effect "in its own space" inside another magical effect).
As I said, no idea about RAW/RAI. No worries though, Corran provides the solution with the problem: Dispel Magic, on Bard's list, chances of success 1d20+3+2 against DC 17, so 45% chance only sadly (on that note, I find a bit of a shame that you don't even get a bonus on rolling when upcasting the spell).

4. T-Rex.
This one is easy: cast Phantasmal Force as suggested previously. For a more "roots" way, cast Plant Growth and have everyone pepper from afar -they can't do much more anyways, since the effect is so large the whole room is covered. XD

5. Flying Monkeys.
Cast Darkness to protect the party, popping as needed to blast them. Knowing that you will start blasting them far before they start throwing things at you. ;)


Overall a bit less impressive than others for these particular encounters, but should still be pretty decent. Also, you still have Circle of Powers for other occurences when magic is much more present.
You are strongly feeling lack of offensive power though with this build. ;)
Could be easily improved offense-wise by swapping Inspiring Leader with Magic Initiate: Sorcerer for more cantrips including weapon ones.

Corran
2017-06-23, 03:33 PM
@Citan (about the lore bard build):

encounter 1 (giant + enchanter)
Well, to start with, your alternative tactics (heat metal ine the giant) wouldnt work because fire giants are immune to fire. The darkness tactics (against the caster) can work fine, but imo it leaves you somewhat vulnerable against the giant (you could use AoA -grabbed as a magical secret- , precasted of course -since the duration allows for it-, and blade ward with your action, in the hopes to inflict lots of damage to the giant, while the party fires at it, until the caster decides to do sth -ie show himself somehow, such as flying, or exiting the darkness to stand next to you).
About suggestion, cannot comment, as it is too DM dependent (gonna try this soon-ish and see how my DM reacts to it).
I think the best plan, would be to try to have phantasmal force stick against the giant, while spending slots to counterspell with your reaction against the enchanter. I would probably also aim at armor of agathys (upcasted) and at using blade ward with my action. Too many resources consumed perhaps, but this seems like the most difficult encounter, in term of how many resources you need to spend to deal with it effectively (judging also by your tactics in the following encounters). The phantasmal force is again a bit to DM's discretion, but at the very least you should be allowed to have it act like a single target web against the giant (so disadvnatge on his attacks -and if he hits, half damage due to blade ward, and as I said I think this would work perfectly with AoA, but I'm repeating myself now). So, phantasmal force... perhaps you could get away with having it act as a single target version of evards (targetin int saves always), that apart from imposing the restrained condition (just like with the web version of phantasmal force), you would get to deal 1d6 psychic damage every round.
ps: You con saves are a bit low for my taste, so if not changing the build to include resilient con, there is even more reason to rely on blade ward with your action, especially as this specific encounter is concerned.


Encounter 2 (infinite kobolds)
I think tat the darkness spell can work pretty great here (as mentioned in your previous posts too), though the trick is if the party knows where they are going (which can be a bit initiative dependent; though with some careful action planning, that may orr may not involve taking the ready action dash, I think it can work just fine). Pretty low resources spent, so that's good. Only real worry is that you may end up losing concentration, so again, thats why I think your lore bard would profit by taking resilient con (I realize you didnt optimize this build as much as you could, on purpose). So, good news is, that you have a good way to deal with this encounter (assuming you didnt have to spend any/many healing words during its course -cant be sure how much damage these kobolds do every round), probably without spending a lot of resources on it (so that makes up somehow for spending a lot of resources -via my suggested course of action ofc- during the precious encounter).

Encounter 3 (Chain devil)
I would say that flaming sphere does not ''cancel'' a 7th level darkness, since the light is the product of a spell of lower than 7th level. I could see an opposite argument, saying that the light is because of the flames and is not meant to be a spell effect, but in that case I would probably rule that the light is natural -not that I agree with this last interpretation. Ofc this is just my opinion, and far from anything I would support as concrete RAW, so I may be wrong. Animate objects is clever thinking (btw, does their damage count as magical, for te purpose of overcoming the devil's resistances? not sure myself, I think yes), but I think that missing the opportunity to double the party's damage output is a shame. I think that trying to dispel the darkness (with the bonus from jack of all trades), or at the very least trying to grapple the devil and drag him out -athletcis expertise-, would probably be a better alternative). Havent done the math, but my money is on dispel magic.
Probably this encounter needs some further planning, and it might need to expend some extra resources.

Encounter 4 (T-Rex)
Nothing to add here.
I think plant growth might be an overkill (depending on what the DM allows you to do with phantasmal force ofc, but imo restraining is a very reasonable expecation from phantasmal force).

Encounter 5 (flying moneys)
I find it amazing how useful darkness can be in these series of encounters. Nothing to add here.
Clever to add EB

Final thoughts: I was surprised how good a lore bard can cover the tank role (not perfectly, but well above my expectations!). The main advantage I see, is how you can deal with 3/5 encounters, relying on minimal resources (ie darkness and phantamal force), so that is really good since it will probably allow you to spend the bulk of your resources during the encounter against te enchaner&giant (I provided some suggestions), and during the encounter against the chain devil (not really sure how you should go about it, but I provided a couple of suggestions --mainly the dispel idea-, as a starting point). A very interesting read!

ps: You might want to change the red text into ''fourth proposition''.

MaxWilson
2017-06-23, 04:54 PM
A recurring problem with the kobold encounter is that we really have no data about how it will play out, so nobody except the OP can make any truly useful suggestions about how to optimize play. Citas suggested build assumes that hiding is an option, but it's not obvious why that should be true against infinite kobolds with infinite Search actions (and besides you can't concentrate on Invisibility + Pass Without Trace at the same time anyway) crawling all over the tunnels. My understanding initially was that it was a pure test of endurance which won't even play out like a combat encounter (in terms of declaring actions, etc.) but just a narrative encounter a la "this round, everyone make a Dex save--everyone who fails take XdY points of damage."

Citan opines that the kobold encounter is going to be the hardest, and that it's worth spending a 5th level spell slot on Circle of Power. Maybe it is. But without knowing how much, what DCs, what mixture of magic vs. ranged attacks, etc., it's impossible for us to know how MUCH it is worth spending in order to prevent some of the damage.

Citan
2017-06-23, 05:02 PM
@Citan (about the lore bard build):

encounter 1 (giant + enchanter)
Well, to start with, your alternative tactics (heat metal ine the giant) wouldnt work because fire giants are immune to fire. The darkness tactics (against the caster) can work fine, but imo it leaves you somewhat vulnerable against the giant (you could use AoA -grabbed as a magical secret- , precasted of course -since the duration allows for it-, and blade ward with your action, in the hopes to inflict lots of damage to the giant, while the party fires at it, until the caster decides to do sth -ie show himself somehow, such as flying, or exiting the darkness to stand next to you).
About suggestion, cannot comment, as it is too DM dependent (gonna try this soon-ish and see how my DM reacts to it).
I think the best plan, would be to try to have phantasmal force stick against the giant, while spending slots to counterspell with your reaction against the enchanter. I would probably also aim at armor of agathys (upcasted) and at using blade ward with my action. Too many resources consumed perhaps, but this seems like the most difficult encounter, in term of how many resources you need to spend to deal with it effectively (judging also by your tactics in the following encounters). The phantasmal force is again a bit to DM's discretion, but at the very least you should be allowed to have it act like a single target web against the giant (so disadvnatge on his attacks -and if he hits, half damage due to blade ward, and as I said I think this would work perfectly with AoA, but I'm repeating myself now). So, phantasmal force... perhaps you could get away with having it act as a single target version of evards (targetin int saves always), that apart from imposing the restrained condition (just like with the web version of phantasmal force), you would get to deal 1d6 psychic damage every round.
ps: You con saves are a bit low for my taste, so if not changing the build to include resilient con, there is even more reason to rely on blade ward with your action, especially as this specific encounter is concerned.


Encounter 2 (infinite kobolds)
I think tat the darkness spell can work pretty great here (as mentioned in your previous posts too), though the trick is if the party knows where they are going (which can be a bit initiative dependent; though with some careful action planning, that may orr may not involve taking the ready action dash, I think it can work just fine). Pretty low resources spent, so that's good. Only real worry is that you may end up losing concentration, so again, thats why I think your lore bard would profit by taking resilient con (I realize you didnt optimize this build as much as you could, on purpose). So, good news is, that you have a good way to deal with this encounter (assuming you didnt have to spend any/many healing words during its course -cant be sure how much damage these kobolds do every round), probably without spending a lot of resources on it (so that makes up somehow for spending a lot of resources -via my suggested course of action ofc- during the precious encounter).

Encounter 3 (Chain devil)
I would say that flaming sphere does not ''cancel'' a 7th level darkness, since the light is the product of a spell of lower than 7th level. I could see an opposite argument, saying that the light is because of the flames and is not meant to be a spell effect, but in that case I would probably rule that the light is natural -not that I agree with this last interpretation. Ofc this is just my opinion, and far from anything I would support as concrete RAW, so I may be wrong. Animate objects is clever thinking (btw, does their damage count as magical, for te purpose of overcoming the devil's resistances? not sure myself, I think yes), but I think that missing the opportunity to double the party's damage output is a shame. I think that trying to dispel the darkness (with the bonus from jack of all trades), or at the very least trying to grapple the devil and drag him out -athletcis expertise-, would probably be a better alternative). Havent done the math, but my money is on dispel magic.
Probably this encounter needs some further planning, and it might need to expend some extra resources.

Encounter 4 (T-Rex)
Nothing to add here.
I think plant growth might be an overkill (depending on what the DM allows you to do with phantasmal force ofc, but imo restraining is a very reasonable expecation from phantasmal force).

Encounter 5 (flying moneys)
I find it amazing how useful darkness can be in these series of encounters. Nothing to add here.
Clever to add EB

Final thoughts: I was surprised how good a lore bard can cover the tank role (not perfectly, but well above my expectations!). The main advantage I see, is how you can deal with 3/5 encounters, relying on minimal resources (ie darkness and phantamal force), so that is really good since it will probably allow you to spend the bulk of your resources during the encounter against te enchaner&giant (I provided some suggestions), and during the encounter against the chain devil (not really sure how you should go about it, but I provided a couple of suggestions --mainly the dispel idea-, as a starting point). A very interesting read!

ps: You might want to change the red text into ''fourth proposition''.
Hey, thanks for the critic. Noted about fourth proposition indeed, bad copy/paste.

1. About Heat Metal: you are right, I'm stupid not to have made the link ("Fire Giant". FIRE. Giant. stupid me XD). With that said, by RAW nothing in the spell description says that because a creature is immune to fire it wouldn't suffer the adverse effects (disadvantage on attacks). And to be honest that was my main intent: setting disadvantage to the Giant's attacks, bonus was just an added benefit. Yet, I guess Blindness is a plain better choice then, except its targets Constitution which Giant is good at...
By the way: thanks for pointing out Blade Ward. Funny thing is, this is one of the few options I metagamed for this scenario, and precisely for first encounter, but I totally forgot about it... Tells much about how often I use it. XD

2. You are right, but to be honest (I will make someone happy when saying that), it's not that I couldn't optimize as much on purpose, it's rather I faced the limitations of a pure Lore Bard that tries to make many things at once. In fact, my sole and only reason for keeping pure was grabbing Circle of Power (because it's just an essential in my view for any Bard ^^), but I realized afterwards that I couldn't stack it with Darkness anyways. In the same way, while Concentration is very important for any Bard, in this specific occurence Wisdom saves were also a big threat in this scenario, so I had to choose. Same with bumping CHA vs Spell Sniper: I saw that all Magic Secrets were taken by great spells, most of which were a cort part of answering this specific scenario. Only by removing Circle of Power could I have coped with Eldricht Blast "only". With that said, Spell Sniper brings other benefits.
Such as, in first encounter, maybe I could directly blast the caster in fact. ^^
Anyways: in short, I really felt the lack of the usual dips I make (Warlock, Fighter or Paladin). ;)
But I think it's viable though, even if the hard focus of Bard's spell-list does make build tricky. ^^

As a counter-remark though: normally, I'd ask the Cleric to Shield of Faith / Sanctuary / Warding Bond me obviously -either, not all ^^-. I could have grabbed this as Magic Secrets now I realize, together with Compelled Duel for the Fire Giant or T-Rex ;). Takes 2 turns but low resource consumption too. ;)
Argh, I'm very tempted to make a fifth suggestion, but it would be too close to some others I suggested: basically Fighter 2 / Rogue 2 / Draconic Sorcerer 6 to use Action Surge and Cunning Action to enable any combination of lock or control requiring two spells.

3. You are certainly right, I forgot that you still had a chance to dispel the effect even if it was higher level. Don't know why I automatically dismissed the ability, considering the Bard is indeed one of the best at this job. I'll edit and credit. ;)

4. Plant Growth is certainly an overkill, especially since its radius would cover the whole area (so party too would have difficulties -could be very fun though, I'd see it well as a Chaotic Neutral pranker Bard-). Just wanted to quote it because I find it so great in many situations. But the lesser option here no doubt.

5. Yes, that's why I decided for Spell Sniper instead of +2 CHA. Funny that it came first of my strong will to keep a spell, aka Circle of Power, that was finally a subpar choice in any encounter. With that said, it's really not fail proof too. Once Monkeys come into range (they have nothing better to do anyways, since my range is superior to them) they could all ready an action to gang on me as soon as I come out. With that said, we are supposed to be a party here, so damage should be at worst shared among members, or one of us could just Dodge (with possible pre-buff by Cleric) then go out to draw most of the readied attack, before everyone else come into the light to spam.

Hence back to what I said: plain better than Lore Bard 10 in this scenario would probably be Lore Bard 6 with other dips, because there are so many areas of expertise to cover at once. With that said, that pure Lore Bard would catch up easily when going up to level 14. ;)
And I'm glad I could demonstrate that even a Lore Bard could be built as a proper tank (as you said, I didn't push to the end, there were many other options) even if obviously small dips always help much, if only to quickly expand the range of good low-level spells known.

And I'm especially glad that I apparently managed to illustrate one point I always argue about, which is that even a character with only up to 3rd level spells could still achieve much (otherwise said: let's not be too afraid about crazy multiclass). ;)

Overall, I'd say my first suggested build is by far the best (I'd daresay even compared to others): Paladin & Warlock gives a solid package of party buff, self-resilience, melee and ranged offense and control. I think the difference is very strong especially in Kobold encounter thanks to Auras. I loved making the Moon Druid too, I never realized the Elemental Forms could be as useful and versatile as that. ;)


A recurring problem with the kobold encounter is that we really have no data about how it will play out, so nobody except the OP can make any truly useful suggestions about how to optimize play. Citas suggested build assumes that hiding is an option, but it's not obvious why that should be true against infinite kobolds with infinite Search actions (and besides you can't concentrate on Invisibility + Pass Without Trace at the same time anyway) crawling all over the tunnels. My understanding initially was that it was a pure test of endurance which won't even play out like a combat encounter (in terms of declaring actions, etc.) but just a narrative encounter a la "this round, everyone make a Dex save--everyone who fails take XdY points of damage."

Citan opines that the kobold encounter is going to be the hardest, and that it's worth spending a 5th level spell slot on Circle of Power. Maybe it is. But without knowing how much, what DCs, what mixture of magic vs. ranged attacks, etc., it's impossible for us to know how MUCH it is worth spending in order to prevent some of the damage.
Dang, you are right. I should have double-checked. I don't know why I was sure as hell Pass Without Trace was a non-concentration spell.
By the way, thanks: although I often take this spell as a Bard anyways (at least when no Druid or Trickster Cleric is present), here I took it only for the purpose of trying the combo with Darkness. Since it's not possible, I can ditch it for another spell I know will be useful. ;)

You are not exactly right on the rest though: I quoted the Hiding as a possible option already before, but then ditched it already because in my opinion, beyond the fact that you had to be unseen (and unheard) to Hide in the first place, which was already difficult, even creatures with -2 on Perception checks were bound to locate us just because there as "infinite" of them (so enough to have a few of them roll a 20 each turn).

That's why I falled back on Darkness, because it's sure to impose disadvantage against us, and at least blocks all spells that would require to "see the target". ;)
I quoted Circle of Power as something my character would do only if, after 2-3 turns of running (provided he didn't lose Concentration already in the first place ;)), he'd realize that effects targeting saving throws would be overall more dangerous (more frequent, or targeting weak saves, or dealing high spike damage).

Agreed though that a bit more of information may have helped, but at the same time, isn't it more "realistic" like this (after all, your characters wouldn't know anything beyond the 10 to 20 meters straight in front of them ;))?


Not quite--you need to create a sense of urgency. How about if, instead of rejuvenating after 8 hours, they and the room vanish after five minutes and won't appear again for ten thousand years?
HAhahaha, nice one, but a bit overkill I'd say. Just 150 years should be enough for most people Only a Wizard with Clone or -I don't remember which- subclass (Moon Druid?) which gains a "I age veeeery slooooowly) could go beyond that. And I'm sure that with even just 1000 years, the only one still in competition, aka Wizard, would die of boredom long before the new age comes. XD


@OP: by the way, do you plan on listing all builds back in opening post now that time is out (I'm restraining myself so much to not propose yet another build, you have no idea XD)? Would you want some help in doing that?

Corran
2017-06-23, 06:22 PM
@MaxWilson: Regarding the kobold encounter, I agree that unless we know more about it we cant make a safe bet on which course of action is the best. The main objective as I see it, is to ensure that everyone keeps moving. Damage prevention is secondary, but still imporant. Initially, I thought that aura of vitality (paired with a good concentration, preferably for autosucess against DC 10) would be the best way to go, given the heals require of you onlt a bonus action. But the action you have to spend to cast it can perhaps end up being pretty taxing (unless mounted, I guess; though the question here becomes, can you bet on having a mount? I think yes), cause it will take one more turn for you to escape. Then again, this extra turn might be worth it, assuming your heals prevented at least one ally from dropping unconscious. On the other hand, assuming that the risk of allies dropping unconscious is relatively low, you could probably be better of relying on bonus action heals (like healing word, in case of unfortunate rolls), if your build has access to it (like Citan's lore Bard). My point is, I agree that to judge how effective various tactics are in this encounter is rather difficult, though I would safely bet, that depending on the difficulty of this encounter and the risk it imposes, spells like aura of vitality (especially if mounted) or healing word could prove very useful. And of course, there is always aura of protection that can help (but yet again, we are not sure how much it would help).
Oh, btw, kept thinking how effectively sanctuary would work against the fire giant. I mean, if the allies are not brainwashed and took cover by exiting the room, it works amazingly (assuming the giant stays and fights, which is the op's premisse afterall, and not an unreasonable way for a non-evil (heh) DM to handle this (and besides, even if the giant decided to run after your allies or run away, insted of fighting you, these BB OA's would hurt him considerably - sanctuary falls, but would the giant know that? And if yes (neutral evil DM), then you can just recast it; anyway... I ramble badly).

@Citan:
- About heat metal: Checked it recently that's why I rememberd (though I did doublecheck it). The effect will potentially apply only if the target of heat metal takes the fire damage, so it wont affect the giant in any way (it's really a shame, I was dissapointed when I saw that was the case, just a few days ago). Besides, eve if it was possible, it would take for the giant to fail a CON save, which is not a good bet.

- About tactics against giant & enchanter: Having searched a bit on my own for effective tactics against fire giants the last few days, I would say, that against a single fire giant, your best bets would be to rely on something that targets either INT or WIS (preferably INT), for a concentration spell (assuming the purpose is to debuff). So stuff like polymorph, phantasmal force, slow (if many), etc, range from relatively good to great choices.
Since you (as a bard) have a good weapon in counterspell in order to deal with the caster, I would say (insist:smalltongue:) that the focus of your tactics would be on how to deal with the giant you aee supposed to be tanking. Since it's just one giant, and since we want to economize our resources as much as possible, I would say that phantasmal force is the winner here. But honestly, I dont think it is enough. I am ready to bet that apart from phantasmal force (most likely used to restrain the giant/ if it's used in a more op way, like making the giant spend his actons against the illusions, then you dont need to do what I say next), our (your:smallsmile:) lore bard would really profit from an upcast (precasted; duration allows for it) AoA paired with blade ward (with your actions). An alternative idea, is to just use command against the giant, but that is probably a subpar to the above strategy (or a back up plan - ofc it depends on how we will end up using our resources in the next encouners, meaning that I can see a lot of use for 2nd+ level spells, but apart from 1st level healing words during the second encounter, I dont see much use for 1st level spells, so that might influence how often we can use command with our action against the giant..... Or, if AoA's temp hp are eaten away by the giant, then you could perhaps use command instead of blade ward with your action).
ps: Regarding blasting the caster, I dont think it's a good idea (despite spell sniper). I think it's best to engage the giant (using the best tricks you can manage against it), and to rely on reactions and counterspell to nulify the impact the caster has. Expensive strategy (i term of resources), and since it is the very first encounter you might think it's not worth it, but I really think it is.:smallbiggrin::smalltongue:

- About the kobold encounter: As I say to MaxWilson above, I think that healing word (which uses your 1st level spell slots on which you wont rely that much), is a very handy spell for than encounter challenge. That is because you can use it with your bonus action, if you need to keep your allies (hopefully) from dropping unconscious, so that the team can keep moving (check my reply to Max at the very start of this post, if you want).
Oh, and while I would certainly value the impact a dip might have, I think that magical secrets might be as important to have for these encounters (not sure, I have to check better which of the spells we are using are coming from the bard spell list and which dont; though I think that a fullcaster spell slot progression is definitely a much needed thing, at least thinking it in the way that I would approach these encounters with a lore bard).

- About compelled duel: Man, this is a bad spell (or at least, I didnt see how I could have used it with the paladin I submitted, to help me with these encounters). About sanctuary, I liked how MaxWilson used it, especially against the fire giant (combining it with dodge and shield if necessary), but I am not sure how the giant would behave if he cant hit the creature (us) protected by sanctuary (does the giant throw a rock on our allies with disadvantage instead?). I also think that if you've got phantasmal force, then you can use it to a greater effect that sanctuary against the T-Rex (though that also depends on what resources you want to spend or not), so I see little point for your bard to pick up sanctuary as is (though against the fire giant it would depend on what I said earlier; still, my money i son AoA + blade ward, be damned the resource cost, we can economie during the following encounters). And back on snactuary, I dont think it would be of much help against the kobolds (as the way I understand it, it would only redirect fire, so I would prefer to bet on some bonus action healing -like healing word-, if necessary).

- About plant growth: Yep, a great spell!

ps: I'll have to read again your paladin/warlock and your druid (wasn't it mainly a monk build? will check, I might have missed sth).

pps: Was willing to give my paly a test, but now I am more curious to test how the lore bard would do!:smallsmile:

MaxWilson
2017-06-23, 06:35 PM
I'm seeing a lot of spellcasters crop up lately, using offensive spells against enemies. I would initially have excluded them from consideration, since I thought the whole point of this was to see how much you could do as a tank (i.e. someone who relies primarily on putting his body between the bad guys and the party), but if non-standard tanking is legal*** I'll throw in an alternate build:

*** Edit: as Citan points out, the clause about spells like Wall of Force not being legal for this contest is now gone.

Liselle, Sneaky Green Airheaded Cheerleader of Life
Folk Hero Goblin Wild Sorcerer 3/Life Cleric 1/Lore Bard 6
Str 10 Dex 14 Con* 14 Int 8 Wis 14 Cha* 15 HP 69 AC 20[* = proficient save, +4]
Feats: War Caster
Important spells: Fire Bolt, Chill Touch, Blade Ward, Sanctuary, Bless, Booming Blade, Blur, Fear, Aura of Vitality, Longstrider, Shield, Expeditious Retreat
Skills: Stealth (Expertise, +10), Perception (Expertise, +10), Athletics
Attack: Booming Blade (dagger) at +5 to hit for d4+d8+1 (plus 2d8 on movement), or Fire Bolt at +7 to hit for 2d10
Spell points: 64 (or 4/3/3/3/2 slots)
Metamagic: Quicken, Extend
Magical secrets: Aura of Vitality, Conjure Animals

Rough tactical sketch: use Longstrider at the beginning of the adventure to cancel out movement penalty for plate armor. Interpose self between bad guys and party; use Blur + Shield to stay alive against tough foes (fire giant, T-Rex; against chain devil just rely on grappling + Dodging); rely on insanely overpowered healing to get everyone through the adventure okay. Use Bless to boost party vs. kobolds. Use Cutting Words to protect self or others at critical junctures (e.g. vs. monkey grapples, vs. Fire Giant's attacks).

Since Liselle has over 2000 HP of healing per long rest (240 HP per Extended Aura of Vitality spell), and is pretty durable herself (i.e. not likely to be unavailable to heal anyone after an encounter finishes), probably the way every encounter will go is that:

1.) Liselle will interpose herself between party and danger, using grappling/Dodging/opportunity attacks to draw attention and Cutting Words to keep self and others safe;
2.) Enemies will inflict damage, but not 240 HP worth (especially after considering temp HP);
3.) After the encounter, Liselle will heal everybody back to full with an Aura of Vitality spell.

(In a real game I'd take Conjure Animals instead of Revivify, because flooding the enemy with conjured animals is an excellent way to keeping the party from taking damage. I don't think it's a legitimate approach for a tanking contest, though. Am I wrong? If so, I'd make her take Aura of Vitality + Revivify, and she'd be a goblin with Stealth and Perception Expertise, and she'd cast Conjure Animals V at the beginning of the adventure and just keep refreshing the animals whenever they started running low. Chain devil would get swarmed by wolves/elks/horses/whatnot before the PCs even entered the room, etc. She'd still end up casting some Auras of Vitality over the course of the adventure because PCs would still take some damage--but summoned animals can both soak damage and inflict it, so it's a net win compared to personally tanking. Note: against the Fire Giant, she'd hang back with the spellcasters and lie prone while spamming Chill Touch, and using Shield to deflect any boulders that came too close.)

*** Edit: Liselle is now definitely Goblin Liselle since summoning is apparently now allowed. Stats above have been adjusted to reflect. No more temp HP from Inspiring Leader but they shouldn't be missed, given the flood of animals that have taken their place.

Citan
2017-06-23, 06:48 PM
Lady Pest

Race: Human (variant); +1 DEX, +1 CHA, skill (acrobatics), feat (resilient con)
Class: Paladin (devotion), lvl 10

Point buy
STR 8, DEX 15, CON 15, INT 8, WIS 8, CHA 15

Feats/ASI's: Resilient CON, +2 CHA, Lucky

Stats @ level 10
STR 8
DEX 16
CON 16
INT 8
WIS 8
CHA 18

HP: 94

AC: 20 (halfplate + shield + defense)

Longsword/ Longbow: +7; d8+3 (2 attacks)

Saves: STR (+3), DEX (+7), CON (+11), INT (+3), WIS (+7), CHA (+12)

Skills: Acrobatics (+7)

Speed: 30 feet

Initiative: +3

Languages: Common, Giant

Spells prepared
Level 1: protection from good and evil*, Sanctuary*, wrathful smite, cure wounds, shield of faith
Level 2: lesser restoration*, zone of truth*, aid
Level 3: beacon of hope*, dispel magic*, aura of vitality, revivify
(these should be enough, have room for 3 more prepared spells)

Spell slots: 4 - 3 - 2

Spell DC: 16


Tactics

1) Against the enchanter and his fire giant bodyguard
Lady Pest will engage the fire giant as fast as she can (dashing if she has to). When she is in striking distance (within 30 feet of the fire giant), she will use her bonus action to cast wrathful smite and she will follow that up with 2 attacks against the giant (casting warthful smite on the same turn she attacks the giant, to potentially avoid unnecessary concentration checks). Assuming she hits at least once (75%), then the fire giant will get to save against wrathful smite (35% chance for the giant to save). If the giant saves, lady Pest will try this again at the first opportune moment. And again, and again (using all her 1st level slots but one, if needs be -she will count a lot on fearing the giant, targeting his second worse save -ie wis-). Once wrathful smite finally sticks (65% with her first attempt, 87.75% by her second attempt, 95.8125% by her third attempt), the giant will have a chance to recover from it at a 12.25% per round, and only if he spends his action. While under the effects of wrathful smite, the fire giant will have disadvantage on all his attacks, so his hit chance against lady Pest will be reduced to 42.25% per attack. Lady Pest will try at all cost to keep up her concentration on wrathful smite (+11 on concentration checks, using lucky rolls if she has to -if the giant is low on hp she will not use a lucky roll; same if the giant is under 1/3 hp and the party has taken care of the enchanter). Her plan is to last long enough against the giant (that means dodging if wrathful smite drops or if it never sticks), for her party to mop up the enchanter, and later helping her take out the giant. If lady Pest is pressed hard in this encounter (which is very likely), she will use her lay on hands on herself, preferably in one go (so when she is down to 44 hit points or less; or thereabout).

Against the enchanter, she will try to hide her smug face when he targets her with dominate person (aura of devotion), and she will try to save with a +7 against evards and against confusion. If she fails her save against evards and the giant plays before her, she will use a lucky roll for a second attempt to save. If she fails her save against evards and she plays before the giant, she will not use a lucky roll, and instead she will use dispel magic on her turn (using a lucky roll there, if needed). If she succeds her save against evards (and not knowing that the enchanter will drop his concentration on it to cast dominate person next round), she will move 5 feet back (no OA, as she did not exit the reach of the fire giant), and she will cast command on the fire giant to approach her (no direct harm, so the command is legit). The command to approach supersees the fear effect regarding moving closer, as far as I understand the rules (asked about this recently on the RAW thread and that was the answer I got anyway). She will do that since she can deal far better than the giant against the dex save forced by evard's black tentacles, and because spending an action to break free from evard's is something that the giant is likely to have to do more often than her (worse dex saves) and because 'losing an action' costs the giant more than it costs her.

This encounter will be rather difficult for lady Pest, and she may be forced to spend lot of resources for it, especially if she is unlucky (she is well prepared to go head on against the fire giant though, and she is also geared well against the enchanter too, so if the dice gods dont intervene against her, I expect her to do reasonably well, ie not dropping unconscious until her allies save the day). Whatever happens, she will not use all her 1st level spell slots (unless she is unlucky with wrathful smite and she has to cast command (unlikley), and she will also not use all of her lucky rolls (she will keep at least one 1st level slot and one lucky roll for later usage; but hopefully it wont come to that much resource expenditure, though she is expected to use a good amount of her resources in this encounter). Her lay on hands is expected to be used during that combat (all in one go most likely). There is a small chance (depending on if she saves against evards and on the initiative order), that she will use a 3rd level slot with dispel magic (lets hope she doesn't have to and that her dex save of +7 -with a lucky reroll to back it up- wont fail her), as 3rd level slots are important and her plan is to use them with aura of vitality in the next encounter.

ps: Lady Pest will snap at the bard for not using illusions against the fire giant and for not counterspelling the enchanter...


2) Against the infinite kobolds
Lady Pest will use aura of vitality to keep her allies (and her if needed) up and running (also to bring back any unconscious ally, if it comes to that). These heals use a bonus action, so she will have her action to dash as necessary. After debating myself, I decided that using sanctuary is not a good idea for this encounter, as it will cost a bonus heal, and it will only (in case it works) redirect some damage, when lady Pest can use aura of vitality as needed to heal the ones that need it the most. Ie, sanctuary is a trap option for this battle (keeping in mind the kobolds' tactics; it would be a good option if the kobolds focused fire though). Assuming group initiative, lady Pest will try to keep everyone (of her allies) within 10 feet of her, to make them profit from her auras (+4 on saves that will be targeted as per the battleplan). Holding on to her concentration on aura of vitaility wont be a problem (with her +11 con saves), so that means that after the enounter is over she will get to keep healing for an additional 5 rounds whomever needs it the most (to help the cleric with his resource management).

Edit: Lady Pest is on dash behind her group (ie 15 feet due to difficult terrain), so it will take her 1 extra round to get out, but I think it is worth spending an action on aura of vitality so that none of her allies drop unconscious (hopefully) and so they can all keep moving. If lady Pest was at least 5 feet ahead of the group when (group) initiative is rolled, she will still get to help her allies with their saves due to aura of protection, despite the wasted action on AoV.

ps: Lady Pest will make her allies swear to never tell that she ran away from a fight!

Short rest: Lady Pest does not count on short rests to gain back any resources spent so far, but probably this would be a good point for her and the group to have a short rest, if not for anything else, just to get some HP back by spending hit dice.

3) Against the Chain Devil
Assuming the chain devil does not attack until someones approaches: Entering the room with the darkness spell cast at its center, Lady Pest will use her divine sense -reasonable enough imo- to see if she picks up anything (surprise surprise! She does). She will use a 1st level spell slot to cast protection from evil on her (assuming combat has not yet started). Then she will use her channel divinity, sacred weapon, and she will charge into the darkness, negating it with the light coming from her gleaming sword (the light produced by sacred weapon negates magical darkness, of whatever level, since it is a magical light that does not come from a spell).

Assuming the battle starts the moment the group enters the room: Then lady Pest will use her action with sacred weapon and her bonus action with shield of faith, and she will engage the fiend in melee, following up with attacks on sebsequent rounds.
--------------------------

Surprisingly, lady Pest will NOT use any smites, unless she happens to crit!

Her plan is to fight it out the long way (in a relative sense, since the group damage output will double iteslef with the darkness supressed). With her attack bonus at +11 (due to sacred weapon), that places her hit chance against the fiend at 80% per attack. And with either protection from evil or shield of faith, that puts the fiend's hit chance against her at either 20.25% or at 35% (depending which spell she is concentrating on). Yep, she will NOT spend fuel to smite to rush this fight. Also, with sacred weapon, her longsword counts as magical for the purpose of bypassing resistances against non-magical weapons, like the ones the chained devil has.

A detail about positioning:
Once the darkness is supressed by the light from sacred weapon, the chain devil will be able to use his reaction to frighten the group (since the group will be able to see him). Lady Pest will try to counter this with her aura of courage and with positioning herself tactically during the first round:

If the fiend is within 30 feet when lady Pest activates sacred weapon, then lady Pest will not use her movement to close in on him until her second turn (she cant attack during her first turn anyway, due to casting sacred weapon). That is so she will be within 10 feet of her allies to share her aura of courage that will protect them from the fiend's unnerving mask (fear effect). If the fiend it further than 30 feet, then she will likely use her movement on her first turn to close that distance enough so that she will be able to strike on her next turn (ie turn 2), while also remaining in an advanced position that is still within 10 feet of her allies who stand behind her (if they are within 30 feet of the chain devil). The room's dimensions allow for this as far as I can tell.

ps: Lady Pest will be sad she did not level up before facing this enemy... (IDS)

4) Against the T-REX
Simple enemy, simple plan. Lady Pest will use wrathful smite against the beast and she will ''intereject'' herself between the beast and her allies (even taking an OA if she has to). Meaning, that since grid play allows for technicalities that go against common logic, and assuming the DM embraces those tecnicallities, then lady Pest will try to position herself in a way so that the distance between her and the rest of the party is such that it will deny the T-REX from engaging anyone by simply circling around lady Pest. That will probably cost us an OA but so be it; it will be the last attack the T-REX will probably make during this encounter (assuming no ally of hers chooses to engage the best in melee). The trick is to position lady Pest in such a way, so that she is further away from the T-Rex than from any of her allies; this way the T-Rex wont manage to engage anyone, as long as it is frightened.

All depends on wrathful smite sticking (70% per try), and so she will use even a 2nd level slot if she has to (preferably a 1st if there are any left, definitely not a 3rd if there are any left). If wrathful smite does not stick with her first attempt (30% for that to be the case), then she will try it once more (only @9% wrathful smite wont have sticked after two attempts at it). Once it sticks, the beast will have to spend its action (which it will do, since it wont be able to engage anyone in melee), and to get rid of the fear effect its chance will lie at 9% per round. All in all, this is predicted to be a relatively easy encounter, with lady Pest ensuring battlefield control andletting her ranged allies and herself (don off the shield, bring out the longbow, and join the group dealing damage from a safe distance) to bring down the beast from a range with impunity. It would take for some very messed up rolls for this encounter to cause any sort of problems.

Now, if an ally decides to engage the beast in melee, despite how unnecessary and idiotic that would be if wrathful smite has sticked on the T-REX (let's face it, if anyone does that, it's going to be the cleric), then lady Pest will just have to engage in melee (assuming there was no time for her to don off her shield and take out her longbow). Lady Pest can heal and cure diseases, but she can't cure stupidity...

ps: Lady Pest will take one of the beast's teeth as a trophy!

5) Against the flying monkeys
Ok, if there are any 2nd level spell slots left, now is the time to use them with aid. If there is at least one 3rd level spell slot left, it will be used with aura of vitality (depending on if we had to use dispel magic or not at the very first encounter, against the enchanter's evard spell -a crucial moment in time that one was). In all likelihood, there are not any 1st level spell slots left (and if there were, they were used with smites against the chained devil, leaving one 1st level slot to be used with wrathful smite against the T-REX). The availability of 1st level slots again depends on the very first encounter (enchanter and fire giant), and on how quickly wrathful smite sticked against the fire giant. Same goes with any lucky rolls left (possible).

The plan is to activate aura of vitality as the monkeys close in on her and the party, use bonus action with heals, and try to act as cover to the squishier (AC-wise) ally of hers, until the monkeys close in for her to attack them (at times like this, I hate how droping/equiping a shield takes an action; no love for dex-based S&Bers). Lady Pest looks like a good target for grappling (8 STR). That alone with spare a lot of attention that would have otherwise been focused on her allies. But it's ok, since Lady Pest has a good enough acrobatics (+7) with which she'll defend against grapples. And when she will be lifted up in the air and thrown down (because lets face it, that will happen sooner or later), she has a good enough dex save (+7) to avoid hurting her allies (and to avoid/reduce the falling damage to her? -didnt quite catch how that works; the point is she has good saves). So yeah, pretty much this, bad STR makes her look like a good target to grapple, and surprisingly good acrobatics make her decent at defending against these grapple checks, good dex saves (her allies will probably profit from aura of protection's boost too -she'll want to stay close to them for that reason) will be her best defense against the monkeys' tactics. She will also use whatever resources she has left up to this point -metagaming alert!- (lucky rolls, spell slots with aid/ aura of vitality, whatever else) to show these monkeys who is the jungle king!

ps: Lady Pest's banner displays a lion!



========================================

Edited to make it easier to read (hopefully). Changed some bits here and there since after a second read it seemed to me I was fancy-talking my way out of some bad situations (though I may still do that to some extent -either I dont see I'm doing it or I cant help it). I also tried to give a good idea about what resource expenditure will look like after every encounter, though the first encounter is so difficult (or rather, I am so bored of doing so) to approximate in term of resources expended, so sorry if it is not very clear what and how much of each is used; I did try to present my tactics in depth though.

ps: Hmmm, I should have Lady Pest play smarter against the fire giant (ie using sanctuary, just like Cranduin the Least did). Meh, that's the price of an 8 INT...:smalltongue:
I thought that Devotion Paladin would be very good also, and you proved it right. A few comments.

1. Why do you think it would be that hard of a fight? Since you have decent DEX, once you made your Wrathful Smite stick, why not then keep your distance while attacking (you could have a hand crossbow at the ready)? Works even if you were taken into Evard's. In fact, I'd say you should use the chance of Giant having disadvantage to bypass him and kill the Enchanter as fast as you can (especially since party is stupid enough to try and get him in spite of obvious cover) no?

2. Aura of Vitality is a nice choice. With that said, I think a viable alternative would be an upcast Heroism: since we can consider that damage or more or less shared amongly, it's a comparison of average 9 on a single target against 4 on three targets (basically everyone but you) each turn. I'd say whichever is better depends much on what is the rest of the group doing and their respective AC: if Cleric is heavy armor and shield, Bard with high DEX -Lore- or medium armor and shield -Valor-, then Aura of Vitality is plain better because Wizard will take the brunt of the damage. However, is everyone is around 15-16 AC...
Of course, if Cleric had the minimum wits required to cast Beacon of Hope (I know it's not an obvious choice usually, but anyone with a minimum of teamwork spirit that knows there is a Paladin in group would prepare it) Aura of Vitaliy shines extremely. :)

3. Since you don't care about using smites, why not attack with a ranged weapon? Sacred Weapon works equally well on it. Also, I wouldn't worry as much about Fear: Wizard and Cleric are proficient, only Bard would suffer. Worst case, Cleric can use Lesser Restoration IIRC.

Otherwise, although it does prevent you from using one of your best feature, use Branding Smite: that way your party does not need to stay into the light technically. They know where YOU are (and YOU are just close to the devil), so they could just move into the light, act and fall back into darkness. Provided the Devil reacts by readying the Fear spell, he could at best affect the current party member for the round (and would use its reaction in the process, meaning everyone could roam around him freely until next round ^^). Then just cast Sacred Weapon when you feel you can single-handedly finish him off next turn with a smite if for whatever reason situation does not currently go your way. ;)
Or, another way that would work although much more resource-consuming: in case you detected the creature and were first to enter (so nobody into darkness yet, so fight did not start), you could cast a Magic Circle as close as the beginning of darkness as you can: no frightened/charmed, disadvantage to enemy attacks, etc... So then you can safely cast Sacred Weapon and hack away while your party uses ranged attacks. ;)


4. First thought about suggesting Compelled Duel, but would work the reverse of objective. So nothing to say here. ;)

5. Same remark as for 2nd encounter: Heroism may be or not a better choice.

I'm seeing a lot of spellcasters crop up lately, using offensive spells against enemies. I would initially have excluded them from consideration, since I thought the whole point of this was to see how much you could do as a tank (i.e. someone who relies primarily on putting his body between the bad guys and the party), but if non-standard tanking is legal I'll throw in an alternate build:

Liselle, Airheaded Cheerleader of Life
Folk Hero Human Wild Sorcerer 3/Life Cleric 1/Lore Bard 6
Str 10 Dex 12 Con* 14 Int 8 Wis 14 Cha* 16 AC 20 [* = proficient save, +4]
Feats: Inspiring Leader
Important spells: Fire Bolt, Chill Touch, Blade Ward, Sanctuary, Bless, Booming Blade, Blur, Fear, Aura of Vitality, Longstrider, Shield, Expeditious Retreat
Skills: Athletics (Expertise, +8), Perception (Expertise, +10)
Attack: Booming Blade (dagger) at +5 to hit for d4+d8+1 (plus 2d8 on movement), or Fire Bolt at +8 to hit for 2d10
Spell points: 64 (or 4/3/3/3/2 slots)
Metamagic: Quicken, Extend
Magical secrets: Aura of Vitality, Revivify

Rough tactical sketch: use Longstrider at the beginning of the adventure to cancel out movement penalty for plate armor; also give a little pep talk so everyone gets 13 temp HP. Interpose self between bad guys and party; use Blur + Shield to stay alive against tough foes (fire giant, T-Rex; against chain devil just rely on grappling + Dodging); rely on insanely overpowered healing to get everyone through the adventure okay. Use Bless to boost party vs. kobolds. Use Cutting Words to protect self or others at critical junctures (e.g. vs. monkey grapples, vs. Fire Giant's attacks).

Since Liselle has over 2000 HP of healing per short rest (240 HP per Extended Aura of Vitality spell), and is pretty durable herself (i.e. not likely to be unavailable to heal anyone after an encounter finishes), probably the way every encounter will go is that:

1.) Liselle will interpose herself between party and danger, using grappling/Dodging/opportunity attacks to draw attention and Cutting Words to keep self and others safe;
2.) Enemies will inflict damage, but not 240 HP worth (especially after considering temp HP);
3.) After the encounter, Liselle will heal everybody back to full with an Aura of Vitality spell.

(In a real game I'd take Conjure Animals instead of Revivify, because flooding the enemy with conjured animals is an excellent way to keeping the party from taking damage. I don't think it's a legitimate approach for a tanking contest, though. Am I wrong? If so, I'd make her take Aura of Vitality + Revivify, and she'd be a goblin with Stealth and Perception Expertise, and she'd cast Conjure Animals V at the beginning of the adventure and just keep refreshing the animals whenever they started running low. Chain devil would get swarmed by wolves/elks/horses/whatnot before the PCs even entered the room, etc. She'd still end up casting some Auras of Vitality over the course of the adventure because PCs would still take some damage--but summoned animals can both soak damage and inflict it, so it's a net win compared to personally tanking. Note: against the Fire Giant, she'd hang back with the spellcasters and lie prone while spamming Chill Touch, and using Shield to deflect any boulders that came too close.)
I'm sorry but there is really no such thing as "standard" tanking. In the world in general, and in the particular case of OP especially: confer post: prevent loss of hp by any mean necessary.

By the way, thanks for this build. I thought about a class combination close as this but was very different in approach. I didn't think at all about blowing everything on just putting everyone back on feet with a huge regular flow of HP. Nice thinking. ;)

Corran
2017-06-23, 06:55 PM
[B]Liselle, Airheaded Cheerleader of Life
(snip)

Hacks!!!:smallbiggrin:

MaxWilson
2017-06-23, 06:56 PM
I'm sorry but there is really no such thing as "standard" tanking. In the world in general, and in the particular case of OP especially: confer post: prevent loss of hp by any mean necessary.

Huh. It used to have a clause in there about not using AoEs or spells like Wall of Force. In that case, I'm definitely backing Liselle's Conjure Animals variant as the best tank. High probability of emerging from the adventure with zero total HP damage taken by the party. Edit for clarification: not because the animals prevent all damage to the party, but because they end encounters quickly while still leaving plenty of spell points/slots left for Liselle to heal the party afterward using her monstrously efficient 240-HP-per-cast Extended Aura of Vitality.

Citan
2017-06-23, 07:10 PM
Huh. It used to have a clause in there about not using AoEs or spells like Wall of Force. In that case, I'm definitely backing Liselle's Conjure Animals variant as the best tank. High probability of emerging from the adventure with zero total HP damage taken by the party.
Well, you are right, there is an example of Stinking Cloud forbidden a few lines below the part I quoted. Hmm. I thought only direct damage AOE was forbidden.

Well, wonder whichever of my suggestions would be accepted by that standard: although none of them are directly mass-disabling, they can be used in such as way (Darkness and Conjure Animals first and foremost). ^^

I disagree on the fact that Conjure Animals would be an "all-win" button in any situation though even if it is a very good spell (and in that case, why bothering with your multiclass instead of taking my pure Druid? ;)).
Especially in Kobold encounter: I did (like you, more or less) thought about using Conjure Animals for the Druid build: but I'm pretty sure it's overall much weaker than using a Darkness spell, simply because that "infinity" of Kobold is bound to attack all those animals at the same time, whether we mount them or not (and much more if we use them as cover). So they are liable to die after 2-3 rounds, maybe 4 at most with some luck, maybe 1 only if bad luck...

In fact, I realize that for that particular encounter, IF you have some control over conjuration (which should not be the case by RAW), Druid may by far the best: cast Conjure Woodlands beings, meaning Pixies who can Polymorph the entire party (then hide in somewhere in fur/mouth for protection or go invisible): Swarm of Ravens would be the best (not sure if RAW since it seems forbidden for Wild Shape) otherwise Giant Eagles if tunnel large enough or plain Ravens for speed (tiny so no problem of terrain), or Dire Wolf for a balanced mix between HP, AC and speed
.
TBH, I thought in my build about Wild Shaping in a Giant Badger, so I could burrow (so dig out) a way for the entire party. But I supposed the caverns were too imbricate, there were to many layers and turn arounds, for it to be a viable option (like, you just dig a wall and come into another room full of goblins).
IF there was only one or two layers though, this would be a very good option imo: just dig out straight to the surface/exit. ;)

MaxWilson
2017-06-23, 07:22 PM
Well, you are right, there is an example of Stinking Cloud forbidden a few lines below the part I quoted. Hmm. I thought only direct damage AOE was forbidden.

Well, wonder whichever of my suggestions would be accepted by that standard: although none of them are directly mass-disabling, they can be used in such as way (Darkness and Conjure Animals first and foremost). ^^

I disagree on the fact that Conjure Animals would be an "all-win" button in any situation though even if it is a very good spell (and in that case, why bothering with your multiclass instead of taking my pure Druid? ;)).
Especially in Kobold encounter: I did (like you, more or less) thought about using Conjure Animals for the Druid build: but I'm pretty sure it's overall much weaker than using a Darkness spell, simply because that "infinity" of Kobold is bound to attack all those animals at the same time, whether we mount them or not (and much more if we use them as cover). So they are liable to die after 2-3 rounds, maybe 4 at most with some luck, maybe 1 only if bad luck...

I don't think Conjure Animals an all-win button per se--you have to combine it with overpowered healing to "win." As you say, the kobolds are still going to damage you--at most, Conjure Animals will just spread out the number of targets and maybe increase your speed. You'll be lucky to cut damage by 2/3 using Conjure Animals alone, leaving 1/3 still to heal.

The nice thing though about Conjure Animals is its hefty duration, which (probably) lets one spell be usable over multiple encounters. Overall I expect to probably use two Conjure Animal V spells, maybe a Conjure Animal III, and no more than three Extended Auras of Vitality over the course of the day (leaving one 4th level slot free) for a total of 720 HP of healing.

BTW, RE: kobolds, Darkness will help against certain spells (which the kobolds may or may not be using) but, depending on the DM's interpretation of darkness (opaque like fog or non-opaque like regular darkness?) could potentially actually INCREASE the damage you take against physical attacks, by cancelling out ranged disadvantage. Anyway, maybe I am reading too much into the "There is no way for the tank to physically prevent these attacks against themselves or the rest" clause.

As an aside, I seem to have overlooked your Moon Druid build (will go back and look for it shortly) but I love Moon Druids. They are super-fun. The only downside to them is that they tend to have poor ranged damage, and I love ranged damage in 5E, but they excel in most other niches, even if you roll the worst stats in the world for them.

Citan
2017-06-23, 07:30 PM
BTW, RE: kobolds, Darkness will help against certain spells (which the kobolds may or may not be using) but, depending on the DM's interpretation of darkness (opaque like fog or non-opaque like regular darkness?) could potentially actually INCREASE the damage you take against physical attacks, by cancelling out ranged disadvantage.

As an aside, I seem to have overlooked your Moon Druid build (will go back and look for it shortly) but I love Moon Druids. They are super-fun. The only downside to them is that they tend to have poor ranged damage, and I love ranged damage in 5E, but they excel in most other niches, even if you roll the worst stats in the world for them.
Could you please expand on what you mean about Darkness? I have no clue about what you mean... XD

Well, there is a very easy way for any Druid to shore up range: Spell Sniper will do nicely. Grab Booming Blade to optimize or whatever else, you don't really care: Eldricht Blast aside, you got the nearly two best attacks spells: Produce Flame (because doubles as "Light") and Thorns Whip (great for control).
Thorns Whip with a 60 feet range that ignores most cover especially makes me laugh extremely hard (now you can go and pull that nasty caster that thought he was safe behind his bodyguards). ^^

Honestly, I think a built mainly built about combining Spike Growth / Plant Growth with Thorns Whip and Repelling Blast ought to be heaps of fun: Archey Warlock 5 / Draconic Sorcerer 15 (Draconic for wings, for extra damage on Thorn Whip) is just the build for that (well, if you want Spike Growth you'll need to sacrifice the wings to take three levels of Nature Cleric or Druid, not that it's such a bad thing in the first place). ;)

EDIT: if you are looking for my Moon Druid suggestion, it's in post 46, near end.
On this, good night (My god, that time!!! I think I should ask to be willingly, temporarily banned from these forums, like for a week or so XD, otherwise I'm afraid I'll never start working and following wise way of life, and that would be bad for me... ^^).

Corran
2017-06-23, 07:37 PM
1. Why do you think it would be that hard of a fight? Since you have decent DEX, once you made your Wrathful Smite stick, why not then keep your distance while attacking (you could have a hand crossbow at the ready)? Works even if you were taken into Evard's. In fact, I'd say you should use the chance of Giant having disadvantage to bypass him and kill the Enchanter as fast as you can (especially since party is stupid enough to try and get him in spite of obvious cover) no?
I did not wat to create distance between me and the giant (if wrathful smite sticks), cause I assumed the giant would start throwing stones against the party's wizard again (with disadvantage, yes), so I didnt want to take that chance (ie I prefered to take my chances due to better AC, even though it would enable the giant to make 2 (melee) attacks instead of 1 (ranged) attack. Not sure it's the best way to approach this with a singleclass paly (or sth close enough) - I mean, MaxWilson's snactuary trick is a much better approach probably-, but I didnt think too much of it. Just made my paly go head on with the big brute.
About not going for the caster, I assumed that I cannot bypass the giant (maybe I can though, due to size difference? -no misty step), but then again, didnt think of it that much. Just went with the typical tankish behaviour. Atm I thought it was very smart play on my part, but seeing more ideas from the rest of you, I think that there is a lot of room for some serious improvement on my tactics!


2. Aura of Vitality is a nice choice. With that said, I think a viable alternative would be an upcast Heroism: since we can consider that damage or more or less shared amongly, it's a comparison of average 9 on a single target against 4 on three targets (basically everyone but you) each turn. I'd say whichever is better depends much on what is the rest of the group doing and their respective AC: if Cleric is heavy armor and shield, Bard with high DEX -Lore- or medium armor and shield -Valor-, then Aura of Vitality is plain better because Wizard will take the brunt of the damage. However, is everyone is around 15-16 AC...
Of course, if Cleric had the minimum wits required to cast Beacon of Hope (I know it's not an obvious choice usually, but anyone with a minimum of teamwork spirit that knows there is a Paladin in group would prepare it) Aura of Vitaliy shines extremely. :)
Oh, that's a nice idea! I would have never though of using heroism there. Hard to rate which of aura of vitality/ heroism/ healing word would be the best for this encounter (putting action economy on the scale, apart from the encounter's difficulty/ more specific details), but yeah, heroism could be a good alternative!


3. Since you don't care about using smites, why not attack with a ranged weapon? Sacred Weapon works equally well on it. Also, I wouldn't worry as much about Fear: Wizard and Cleric are proficient, only Bard would suffer. Worst case, Cleric can use Lesser Restoration IIRC.
I re-read the encounter set-up, and I have to admit, that I completelly misjudged it. I though that the chains are all attached to the chain devil, so I thought melee'ing him would make him target me instead of my allies (still, that would not be necessarily true, as no sentinel). I might have to rethink that. Agreed bout fear not being much of a problem, but since I have aura of courage, I might as well put it to some use and not take chances (even if it is a small one). Besides, due to the dimensions of the room, and due to spending my first action to activate sacred weapon, it doesn't cost me anything to move the way I described (advance so much as to still be within 10ft of my allies) in the first round of combat.



Otherwise, although it does prevent you from using one of your best feature, use Branding Smite: that way your party does not need to stay into the light technically. They know where YOU are (and YOU are just close to the devil), so they could just move into the light, act and fall back into darkness. Provided the Devil reacts by readying the Fear spell, he could at best affect the current party member for the round (and would use its reaction in the process, meaning everyone could roam around him freely until next round ^^). Then just cast Sacred Weapon when you feel you can single-handedly finish him off next turn with a smite if for whatever reason situation does not currently go your way. ;)
That's a good alternative, I thought it was better to rely on channel divinity rather than spells (it's very likley that I will end up using some of my 2nd level spells for wrathful smite -both against the giant and the T-Rex, that's my main trick, ie wrathful smite, so I wanted to keep my spell slots intact for that eventualty, in case they ddt stick easily or in case I lost concentration). Besides, sacred weapon was one of the reasons I went with the devotion oath (just for that encounter:smalltongue:), as it played well both against the magical darkness and the devil's damage resistances.



Or, another way that would work although much more resource-consuming: in case you detected the creature and were first to enter (so nobody into darkness yet, so fight did not start), you could cast a Magic Circle as close as the beginning of darkness as you can: no frightened/charmed, disadvantage to enemy attacks, etc... So then you can safely cast Sacred Weapon and hack away while your party uses ranged attacks. ;)
Oh yeah, assuming I had the time to pull this off, it would make for a very easy encounter (didnt thought of it, though I would probably think that the casting time is a drawback).



5. Same remark as for 2nd encounter: Heroism may be or not a better choice.
In all likelihood I will be out of 3rd level spells by the last encounter, so the question becomes, would heroism help the group better than aid? Mmmm, I think yes. Now that I think of it, bless would not be a bad spell to use for this encounter either (given the singleclass paladin's narrow options). It would certainly help with those edex saves!

MaxWilson
2017-06-23, 07:53 PM
Could you please expand on what you mean about Darkness? I have no clue about what you mean... XD

Kobolds firing long-ranged weapons like slings will be at disadvantage normally. But if you were unable to see the kobolds due to e.g. fog, they would have advantage to hit you because you, the targets, can't see the attackers. That advantage would cancel out both the disadvantage from the kobolds being unable to see their targets AND ALSO the disadvantage for long range. Net effect: fog can potentially make it easier for kobolds to hit you with ranged weapons, by negating long-range disadvantage.

By strict RAW, the Darkness spell simply creates an area of heavy obscurement, which prevents others from seeing those within the area of heavy obscurement: you can see the kobolds (maybe), but they can't see you because you're in the dark.* However, this reading is controversial, especially to people who grew up with other versions of D&D where Darkness analogues (e.g. Darkness, 15' radius in AD&D) explicitly create a ball of blackness. These DMs tend to treat Darkness as opaque: you can't see into it, and you can't see out of it. That is, they treat Darkness as if it were written with the same language as Hunger of Hadar: "No light, magical or otherwise, can illuminate the area, and creatures fully within the area are blinded." By RAW, Darkness doesn't blind creatures within it, it just creates heavy obscurement which blinds others with respect to those within it--but many DMs don't run it this way.

* In that case, Darkness can only ever help you, not hurt you, unless the kobolds are close enough to be within the darkness too in which case they didn't have ranged disadvantage anyway.

It doesn't help that early printings of the PHB had a heavy obscurement rule which was exactly opposite the one in PHBs printed post-Errata. Nowadays, heavy obscurement effectively blinds you with respect to those within it (i.e. you can't see them); but in early printings, heavy obscurement blinded those within it. (Which was totally goofy of course and led to bizarre things like being unable to see a guy with a candle unless you were within the candlelight too--but the guy with the candle can see everything including stuff hiding in the dark, because he's not heavily obscured. No sane DM ever actually used the original heavy obscurement rules as written.)


Well, there is a very easy way for any Druid to shore up range: Spell Sniper will do nicely. Grab Booming Blade to optimize or whatever else, you don't really care: Eldricht Blast aside, you got the nearly two best attacks spells: Produce Flame (because doubles as "Light") and Thorns Whip (great for control).
Thorns Whip with a 60 feet range that ignores most cover especially makes me laugh extremely hard (now you can go and pull that nasty caster that thought he was safe behind his bodyguards).

By my standards, that doesn't count as getting good ranged attacks. 60' maximum range is pathetic compared to a 600' longbow; and the damage is still cantrip-level damage. Ideally I like having at least one PC around who can win an archery duel against a platoon of gnolls or hobgoblins. A Sharpshooter fighter will do, or an Agonizing Eldritch Spear Spell Sniper warlock (or sorlock or bardlock or whatever). Moon Druid can't compete in that niche, although he can of course just turn into an Earth Elemental and (potentially, depending on terrrain) kill them all to death from underground, especially if he is Mobile; or he can sneak past them (Pass Without Trace). It's not a crippling weakness, but it's the one thing that Moon Druids really aren't good at.


Honestly, I think a built mainly built about combining Spike Growth / Plant Growth with Thorns Whip and Repelling Blast ought to be heaps of fun: Archey Warlock 5 / Draconic Sorcerer 15 (Draconic for wings, for extra damage on Thorn Whip) is just the build for that (well, if you want Spike Growth you'll need to sacrifice the wings to take three levels of Nature Cleric or Druid, not that it's such a bad thing in the first place). ;)

Agonizing Repelling Blast is also tons of fun in high places where falling damage is a thing. (Knocking an enemy off a cliff = lots of falling damage + lands prone + takes time to get back in the fight, if he even can.) I remember one fight in particular (10th-ish level PCs against two dozen Umber Hulks on a neogi deathspider) that I thought was going to go really badly until the bardlock started blasting Umber Hulks off the edge of the ship where they drifted helplessly in the gravity plane instead of ripping faces off PCs and NPC sailors.

Citan
2017-06-24, 04:59 PM
About Darkness, my gosh, what you write seems RAW but it made all so confusing in my head. XD
So basically because it's Darkness and not "just" Fog Cloud, the level of obscuration is so heavy that everybody is blind so you end with no disadvantage? Wow.
But, at the same time, wouldn't the Goblins automatically miss when attacking if they target an empty space? Or do we consider they still manage to know the location of the players just with sound alone? By RAW, it seems that would be the case. I'd argue though that any reasonable DM would rule that, considering the probable ruckus of all these creatures yelling, running and taking actions it would end in such a cacophony that they wouldn't be able to locate creatures through sound alone.


About Druid and cantrips, I was actually quoting Produce Flame as the one cantrip with good range because in my memories its base range was much higher, like 90 feet. Indeed 30 feet is not long range.
Still it makes Thorns Whip much better in that you can draw people away from cover to help your other ranged pals (or just deprive your main target from the protection that close friends of it provided through threat of opportunity attacks).

MaxWilson
2017-06-24, 07:41 PM
About Darkness, my ----, what you write seems RAW but it made all so confusing in my head. XD
So basically because it's Darkness and not "just" Fog Cloud, the level of obscuration is so heavy that everybody is blind so you end with no disadvantage? Wow.

No, Fog Cloud would be exactly that way too. (That is, judging by conversations I've had with these DMs and players--DMs who make Darkness opaque tend to make Fog Cloud opaque too. I myself leave Darkness acting like regular darkness (non-opaque) but I do make Fog Cloud partially opaque: it's heavy obscurement, but more than 5' of it blocks line of sight, so to benefit from it you need to be right on the edge of the cloud.)

The simple rule: mutual blindness results in no disadvantage, unless the DM houserules otherwise. (I have. Unseen attackers at my table get advantage only on MELEE attacks, not ranged attacks.)


But, at the same time, wouldn't the Goblins automatically miss when attacking if they target an empty space?

Only if you can make them lose track of your position via Hide*. Also, it depends on what kinds of attacks they're launching, and we have no details on that. AoEs are obviously less affected than targeted attacks.

* Or some other, situationally-dependent means like a prolonged deafeningly loud noise and maybe a failed Perception check on the enemy's part. DM's call what else besides Hiding can cause enemies to lose track of you.


Or do we consider they still manage to know the location of the players just with sound alone? By RAW, it seems that would be the case. I'd argue though that any reasonable DM would rule that, considering the probable ruckus of all these creatures yelling, running and taking actions it would end in such a cacophony that they wouldn't be able to locate creatures through sound alone.

Could be, but at minimum there would probably be a Perception check.


About Druid and cantrips, I was actually quoting Produce Flame as the one cantrip with good range because in my memories its base range was much higher, like 90 feet. Indeed 30 feet is not long range.
Still it makes Thorns Whip much better in that you can draw people away from cover to help your other ranged pals (or just deprive your main target from the protection that close friends of it provided through threat of opportunity attacks).

Yeah, that's a nice synergy.

Garresh
2017-06-24, 08:18 PM
Silus the Vanguard
Human Variant
Fighter 1/Warlock 2/Wizard 7
Sage

Str 16
Dex 8
Con 12
Int 16
Wis 10
Cha 13

Proficiency Bonus +4

HP: 58

AC: 20
Attack: +7, 1d8+3
Booming Blade: +7, 2d8+3 + 2d8
Green-Flame Blade: +7, 2d8+3 + 2d8+4

Save DC: 16


Equipment:
Full Plate
Shield
Warhammer


Skills:
Athletics +7
Perception +4
Arcana +8
History +8
Religion +8

Feats
Human 1: Warcaster
Wizard 4: +2 Int

Class Features:

Fighter 1:
Protection Fighting Style
Second Wind

Warlock 2:
Great Old One
Invocations(2):Devil's Sight, Armor of Shadows

Wizard 7:
Abjuration
Arcane Ward: 18 HP


Cantrips:
Warlock(2): Booming Blade, Blade Ward
Wizard(4): Green-Flame Blade, Lightning Lure, Frostbite, Ray of Frost

Spells Known:
Warlock(3): Armor of Agathys, Protection From Good And Evil, Comprehend Languages
Wizard(18): Organized by spell level for ease of reading.
1(8):Absorb Elements, Grease, Feather Fall, Earth Tremor, Fog Cloud, Shield, Thunderwave, Silent Image
2(4):Web, Levitate, Enlarge/Reduce, Darkness
3(4):Counterspell, Fly, Hypnotic Pattern, Fireball
4(2):Banishment, Polymorph

Spells Prepared: 11
1: Feather Fall, Fog Cloud, Shield, Grease
2: Levitate, Enlarge/Reduce, Darkness
3: Counterspell, Fireball
4: Banishment


Spell Slots:
Warlock 1: 2
1: 4
2: 3
3: 3
4: 1

Strategy: First thing in the morning you roll out of bed and cast Armor of Agathys as a 2nd level spell. Between the ward and AA you gain an additional 27 HP, which brings you up to 85. A fighter can do better, but you've got shield and 20 AC so you're still respectable enough. Once you've suited up, it's time to go to work.

Spell Slots Left:
1(W): 2
1: 4
2: 2
3: 3
4: 1

Fight 1: I immediately see that the giant is the biggest problem, so I cast Banishment on it, then approach the Enchanter. I counterspell the dominate spell. The odds of me both failing the counterspell AND failing the saving throw are low, so it shouldn't be an issue. Either way, I run up into melee with the enchanter ASAP, using my protection style to screen the cleric against any attack spells she casts. I'll tank the evards and break out using my Strength, and simply endure any damage otherwise. If she targets a squishy in the back, I add my 17 HP arcane ward to their HP to protect them. Once she drops, I facetank the giant, which will probably eat what remains of my ward along with half my HP. If the giant proves problematic, I use my short rest recharging warlock slots to spam Grease on him to mess up his routine. I'd probably also use a Shield spell to protect myself at some point.

After the fight, I spam Armor of Shadows on the wizard to recharge my ward.

Spell Slots Left:
1(W): 0
1: 4
2: 2
3: 2
4: 0

Fight 2: Seeing that this is going poorly, I cast a Darkness spell on my shield, and tell my party to follow my voice. This won't help against incoming attacks due to Darkness advantage/disadvantage canceling itself out. But it WILL block line of sight, preventing spells from targeting us. The damage is a big issue though, so I'll be reinforcing my allies' hp with my arcane ward as appropriate. This isn't really a "winnable" encounter so basically it just comes down to mitigating damage as much as possible, and I can block most of the non-AoE spell damage along with an additional 17 HP worth of damage to our squishies. It's not negligible, but it's not ideal either.

After the fight, I spam Armor of Shadows on the wizard to recharge my ward.

Spell Slots Left:
1(W): 0
1: 4
2: 1
3: 2
4: 0

Rest: At this point, due to terrifying little kobolds, we take a short rest. I recover any HP I'd lost via hit dice, recharge my arcane ward, and prepare to go back into danger.

Spell Slots Left:
1(W): 2
1: 4
2: 1
3: 2
4: 0

Fight 3: The devil has advantage on ALL attacks, and disadvantage on all attacks against it. Let's equalize. I cast fog cloud and make it so that NO ONE can see. The devil now has its damage cut considerably while also taking more damage as a result(disadvantage counteracted by it being blind now). At this point I can't ward my allies because I can't see them, but I can run in and grapple the chain devil so it can be pinned down for my allies. I'm a little better at grappling than the devil(+7 to his +4), so I can stick with that as my game plan. Alternatively, I can use Booming Blade to bypass resistances and force him to choose between more damage. Even if he runs, I can opportunity attack to keep applying booming blade damage. Regardless of situation, once I get close to him he will not be getting away without being punished. With this being the case, damage should be fairly evenly spread out, and much more manageable.

After the fight, I spam Armor of Shadows on the wizard to recharge my ward.

Spell Slots Left:
1(W): 1
1: 4
2: 1
3: 2
4: 0

Fight 4: T-rex. Ohh this is gonna be fun. Each round, I Grease the T-Rex targeting its low dex save. So long as the party slides back or to the side with their full movement, the T-Rex should be delayed significantly. The grease eats half move, so the T-Rex has a speed of 25 feet. If I position myself towards the front, the T-Rex eats opportunity attack booming blades if it runs past me, and is so slow it probably won't run past me. Either way, I'm absolutely chewing through spell slots here. I'll likely grease multiple times in addition to SHielding myself.

After the fight, I spam Armor of Shadows on the wizard to recharge my ward.

Spell Slots Left:
1(W): 0
1: 1
2: 1
3: 2
4: 0

Fight 5: Flying Monkeys. I fireball. Then I fireball again. Anyone who gets grappled I slow fall, but they shouldn't be able to get more than 1 off.


Fallbacks: In the event that things go poorly, I keep Enlarge as a fallback plan. Against the giant, devil, or t-rex, I have a +7 athletics with advantage for grapple attempts, and a Large size allowing me to grapple those creatures. While not ideal, my grapple chance vs the T-rex is 75%, and even higher vs the devil. The giant has a +11 athletics, but I have +7 with advantage. It's about a 50/50, but I've always got my ward to screen for an ally until I can re-grapple him.

Closing Arguments: The idea of this build basically falls into the following philosophy. Armor of Agathys procs on hits, not damage taken. Arcane Ward prevents damage. If facing highly difficult fights such as the 5 OP listed, this build focuses on being a meat shield up front and using more "traditional" wizard control spells to mitigate damage. If that fails, he can of course grapple by Enlarging himself. In the event that control has already been established, such as fighting in a narrow corridor where the squishies are protected, the fighting style shifts considerably. In a straight brawl where squishies are not at risk, Armor of Agathys is upcast to level 4, causing 20 return damage on every strike, until the enemy can do the 37 damage required to break it. Blade Ward can raise the required break damage to 74. If the enemy tries to move past, Booming Blade punishes them greatly. Or you can grapple forcing them to waste turns escaping or choose to hit you taking 20 additional damage each turn.

MaxWilson
2017-06-26, 12:54 PM
When do we see results from the judges?

PeteNutButter
2017-06-28, 04:40 PM
When do we see results from the judges?

And then the thread died...

MaxWilson
2017-06-28, 04:45 PM
And then the thread died...

Should we just do a computer simulation of each build and count up the total party HP remaining at the end?

Hackulator
2017-06-28, 04:48 PM
This stopped being a tank contest and started being a battlefield controller caster contest.

MaxWilson
2017-06-28, 04:53 PM
This stopped being a tank contest and started being a battlefield controller caster contest.

There's no reason the judges couldn't eliminate certain builds from consideration for thematic reasons before rendering a judgment. Or, if we do computer sims, we could do one ranking for with AoE and summoning spells allowed, and another ranking without.

Citan
2017-06-28, 07:54 PM
This stopped being a tank contest and started being a battlefield controller caster contest.
I'd like to see some more explanation here, so far it just seems like a bitter argument from someone who actually expected pure martials to shine better.

From what I said so far in the thread, spells used were...

- Aura of Vitality: not a "mass spell" (you can choose a different creature each turn, but it's still a single-target) and 100% fitting in one of the objectives given: keep party alive either by preventing damage or by healing it.

- Animate Objects: not a "mass spell" stricto sensu, but it was indeed suggested mainly as a way to deal direct damage, without providing any direct benefit related to "tanking objective". I would totally understand if related tactic was voided by the judges.

- Bless: pure defensive buff. Even if it affects several people, totally legal imo.

- Blindness: single-target, concentration (making you a target of choice), improves (greatly) the party's defense. Totally fitting objectives and rules.

- Circle of Power: "mass" spell but absolutely not controllish, only buffing party defenses. Totally legal imo.

- Compelled Duel: you cannot make more "tanky" than that.

- Command: single-target, not really "battlefield control" imo.

- Conjure Animals: while this is not technically a mass spell at all, its versatility makes it one that could be used, among other things, as a plain damage dealer. Note though that most uses suggested were geared towards being transports or meat shields. So "creatures taking damage for the sake of allies". Isn't that a tank? :) Also, either enemy dispatches it quickly so it's not like it was overpowered, or enemy finds it a pesky tactic and will want to focus all his attacks on the caster to break his concentration ASAP as a result. So your character is making enemy focus on him and avoid attack allies. Isn't that tanking?

- Conjure Woodlands Beings: was totally suggested in a way that would take advantage of conjured creatures's innate spellcasting. While the suggested tactics aimed at defense only, I could understand judges ticking and putting it aside.

- Counterspell: voiding a spell before it takes effect is one of the best ways to prevent damage, isn't it? Also, single target and reaction, not a mass spell.

- Darkness: spells that people demonstrated as giving some advantage but being not the great solution. Also, any enemy group with someone a tad smart would make everybody aim at the cloud center, because there is a fat chance someone is being the center or at least holding the object on which it was cast. So if you decided to be the holder, congrats, you became a target of choice. Objective accomplished.

- Dispel Magic: exactly the same as Counterspell.

- Earth Tremor: while being used mainly for the prone effect against a lone target, technically this is an AOE spell that deals damage so it could certainly be offed by judges.

- Faerie Fire: this one does not deal damage per se but is indeed a mass spell, which aims towards improving offense, and only in this particular scenario does he provide a defensive advantage to the party (by allowing it to see, avoiding imposed advantage on attacks against them). I would more or less understand this one being ditched.

- Fear: ok, this one is clearly a mass spell, but it does not deal damage by itself, nor improves the to-hit or damage of the party, it just improves its defense indirectly. I could more or less understand if this was deemed contrary to the rules. But again, enemies should focus on you to break the effect ASAP.

- Fog Cloud: inamovible, small area, can be dispersed easily, can bother party as easily as enemies, used mainly for cover. Where and how would that be a problem?

- Flaming Sphere: while being used for the light effect before anything else, this is indeed an AOE spell that deals damage. Could totally be offed by judges.

- Healing Word: healing spell, nothing to see here.

- Heat Metal: single-target, improves party defense, totally fitting the objectives and rules.

- Phantasmal Force: single-target, redirects attack: totally fitting the objectives and rules.

- Various smite spells / Ensnaring Strike: single-target effect, I don't see why or how this should deemed "battlefield control" as a consequence.

- Wind Wall: this is a purely defensive spell, but similarly to Fear it could indeed be categorized as "battlefield control".

- Wall of Force: same as just above.

So as a wrap-up: only Animate Objects, Conjure Woodlands Beings and Wall of Force are probably beyond the line, seeing as how high level and "large-scale" they can be.
Flaming Sphere and Earth Tremor could be put aside without discussion on the sole fact that they are technically damaging AOE which was clearly forbidden in OP, even if the way they were used made the damage part basically irrelevant.
A decent case could be made about Fear and Wind Wall for its being a 3rd level "mass" spell and protecting the caster as well as the rest of the party (although, for Fear, Long Death Monk has exactly it but has to use action every turn). Another case could be made about Conjure Animals, although honestly it's very far from being overpowered considering the very low HP and AC they usually have (in the suggested tactics against Kobolds, you can expect most of them to die before the end of their second turn unless you make something about it, actively).

ALL OTHER SPELLS, except Circle of Power (which is basically quoted as a last-resort) and Counterspell (which cannot be argued as against the rules per its nature), are 1st or 2nd level spells which actively incite enemies to focus on the "tank" character, either directly (effect of the spell) or indirectly (breaking concentration is a priority). Or just plain defensive/healing spells which are totally within OP's rules.
And these spells are the ones most often quoted in builds and tactics suggestions. Additionally, most of these spells could be accessed by any "half-caster" gish, either pure or multiclassed (including Arcane Tricksters and Eldricht Knights), so it's not like there is a strong unbalance between caster builds and martial builds.
Furthermore, the slot consumption has been overall very low, so in the league of any character having a spellcaster level of 4-5 (maybe even just 3 depending on chosen tactics). Again, totally achievable for builds including martial classes.

So, sorry, the competition context and rules have been respected for the uttermost part. It's just that the result was plain obvious: in the end, martials get only access to very few "permanent" ways to protect his allies, mainly Shoving (three attempts at most per turn), the Long Death's exclusive Fear or using a reaction to help in any way (Protection, Crown's "take damage in the stead"). Battlemaster being the only one among "pure martials" to get other defensive options thanks to Manoeuvers.
Only Paladin shines much more brightly thanks to Auras and other class features, even if you put aside all the spellcasting aspect. Hence the reason why it's the best tank at that kind of level among all "martial" chassis. But even so...

Spells, even single-target ones, directly affect the enemy and are sustainable over time so are intrinsically much much better than any martial feature, since you can do other things on subsequent turns after cast. That's the benefit that goes with the big drawback being that it consumes a very limited, usually long-rest resource. Which a smart mind can use scarcely as people illustrated in the thread. ;)

Squibsallotl
2017-07-06, 07:31 PM
Looks like the contest is over/thread's dead, but I'll submit my entry anyway. He's a straight Devotion paladin, but the specific build and tactics he employs may be a bit different from the other suggestions thus far.

Variant Human, Devotion Paladin 10

Str 8
Dex 16
Con 16
Int 8
Wis 8
Cha 20

Feat: Resilient (Con), both ASIs +2 Charisma

AC: 20 (Half Plate, Shield, Defensive Style)
HP: 94 (104 with Aid)

Saves:
Str +4, Dex +8, Con +12, Int +4, Wis +8, Cha +14

Skills:
Class: Persuasion and Religion
Background (Urchin): Sleight of Hand, Stealth
Race: Acrobatics

Spells:
1st (4): Bless, Command, Divine Favor, Wrathful Smite
2nd (3): Aid, Branding Smite, Find Steed
3rd (2): Aura of Vitality, Elemental Weapon, Revivify

The way he approaches each encounter is as follows:

Enchanter with Fire Giant
Pre-casts Find Steed, Aid (using a 3rd level spell slot, targeting himself, the Wizard and Bard), and immediately prior to battle, Sacred Weapon.

His Warhorse allows him to close with the Giant on round 1, and his high attack bonus from Sacred Weapon coupled with a high spell save DC from 20 Charisma allows him to stick a Wrathful Smite. He can maintain this even against DC 14 Concentration saves. He is immune or has a high chance of resisting everything the enchanter throws at him, and with high AC, HP and Disdvantage on the Giant's attacks he can tank it until the party helps him kill it. He'll take a large amount of damage over the duration of the fight and will need to spend all his Lay on Hands on himself at the end.

Tucker's Kobolds
Each round, in between moving his speed + using his action to Dash, the Paladin casts Sanctuary as a bonus action targeting the weakest party members first (presumably Wizard, then Bard). The Kobolds now cannot make any attacks against them without first succeeding on a DC17 Wis save. Both Kobold variants (normal and Winged) have a -2 to Wis saves, so they cannot make the save without rolling a 19 or 20. At 2-3 attacks per PC per round, they should escape close to unscathed. The Paladin with 20 AC and high Dex, Con and Wis saves tanks any damage thrown his way. The Cleric should also have relatively high AC, can presumably cast Sanctuary on himself, and even if not will benefit from +5 to all saves from the Paladin's Aura and thus should be able to save Vs any magical attacks that go his way.

After this encounter he takes a short rest to spend hit dice and recover from the Fire Giant + Kobolds damage, as well as recharging his Channel Divinity.

Chain Devil
Round one he discovers the Devil using Divine Sense, and round two he moves into melee and activates Sacred Weapon, which being a non-spell source of magical light dispels his Darkness, allowing the party to open up and deal heavy damage. On round 3 he uses one or both of his remaining 2nd level spell slots on Smite to destroy the Devil.

The party will take some damage in round 2, but it should be minor and will be absorbed by Aid HP.

T-Rex
Some hit-and-run tactics are called for in this fight. Using his summoned Warhorse, the Paladin will ride up to the beast, stick a Wrathful smite, and then have his mount Disengage and move 15ft away, just outside of reach and in front of the party. The T-Rex will be too afraid to approach, and I'll have my Warhorse ready actions to keep interposing myself between it and the group if the beast tries to circle. I then switch to my Longbow and kill it from range.

Flying Monkeys
First round our Paladin, mounted on his Warhorse with a military saddle, rides ahead into the fray with longbow equipped and begins shooting Monkeys, making himself a target. With +7 to Acrobatics and advantage on the check (from the military saddle) he should be able to resist a fair few attempts to grapple him and pull him off his mount. Meanwhile, as soon as the party starts taking damage or getting grappled + dropped, the Paladin activates Aura of Vitality with his last spell slot and begins using bonus actions to heal for 2d6 every round until the Monkeys are slain. He can continue the healing after the fight to patch up anyone who was still damaged from the Chain Devil fight earlier.

Citan
2017-07-07, 03:35 PM
@Squibsallotl
Great suggestion, a few remarks.

1. Sadly Sanctuary is not upcastable, so you would have to cast it three times in a row in three consecutive turns.
With that said, it's still a great idea. ;)

2. Sacred Weapon: there is nothing RAW that would rule the conflict between both, and in OP we are talking about a 7th level Darkness spell. Honestly I see both conclusions being equally valid here. As a DM I would opt for the light > darkness though (because light always win in the end! o/).

3. The "direct kill" tactic for the Monkeys is kinda against OP's rule. ^^

Squibsallotl
2017-07-08, 05:00 AM
@Citan,
Thanks for the corrections, can't believe I missed Sanctuary not being upcast-able. I've amended my post to cast it twice on the run (wizard and bard). The cleric with his own healing abilities, Sanctuary on his own spell list and at +5 to all saves should make it out Ok on his own, and we take a short rest immediately afterwards.

Sacred Weapon Vs Darkness is open to debate, but there really aren't many builds that can deal with the Chain Devil without compromising their tankyness. Light Cleric's Channel Divinity, dipping 2 Warlock for Devil's Sight (still requires a highly damaging tank), or a high-Wis grappling build are the only other viable options. I like the elegance of Sacred Weapon making my weapon magical (bypass the devil's DR), getting rid of his concealment, AND overcoming my low attack bonus.

And on reconsideration I agree, standing back and shooting the Monkeys isn't really "tanking". Amended it now that I have one extra 3rd level spell slot (from not upcasting Sanctuary) to use Warhorse + Military Saddle shenanigans + Aura of Vitality to make myself a grapple-resistant target whilst healing my party each round.

I've been theorycrafting lots of builds to attempt to meet this challenge, and IMO the Dex-based Devotion Paladin is the best. Aid + Lay on Hands provides an effective HP pool higher than a Barbarian can achieve, plus can benefit the party. The Saving throw aura is of course invaluable, you've got Find Steed for mobility, Smite for when something absolutely needs to die fast, buff spells, Sacred Weapon... I think its only real limitation is the necessity of being honourable, so in each fight (except against the Chain Devil) you'd realistically have to waste a turn asking the enemy (nicely) to surrender first :P

Citan
2017-07-08, 07:34 AM
@Citan,
Thanks for the corrections

I've been theorycrafting lots of builds to attempt to meet this challenge, and IMO the Dex-based Devotion Paladin is the best.
Well, if you can spare the time and interest, I'd be glad to have your feedback on some of the builds I suggested, at least the first one (Ancients Paladin -but multiclassed- ;)). Because to be honest I think it's still better, not (only?) because I was the one proposing it :smallbiggrin:, but because of the (imo) better defense and versatility. ;)

strangebloke
2017-07-08, 02:39 PM
Looks like the contest is over/thread's dead, but I'll submit my entry anyway. He's a straight Devotion paladin, but the specific build and tactics he employs may be a bit different from the other suggestions thus far.

[SPOILER=Variant Human Devotion Paladin 10]snip

Very nice.

this whole approach could be summarized as 'why warhorses are very good.'

Squibsallotl
2017-07-08, 08:07 PM
Well, if you can spare the time and interest, I'd be glad to have your feedback on some of the builds I suggested, at least the first one (Ancients Paladin -but multiclassed- ;)). Because to be honest I think it's still better, not (only?) because I was the one proposing it :smallbiggrin:, but because of the (imo) better defense and versatility. ;)

Hi Citan,

For sure. I'll break down the build strategies and critique below.

1. Fire Giant + Enchanter
Disclaimer: I make the tactics with the assumption that party has only a relative idea of what both can do, but are not extremely informed about their weaknesses. I did have to go take a look myself though. ^^ An optimized move against the giant would be a Phantasmal Force as often, or maybe a Command: Grovel so that party can directly attack Enchanter with ranged attacks (Firebolt or weapons).

Note: it would help much knowing how far are really Giant and Enchanter from each other, and how far Giant is to the party. Because it can change much the tactic to use.
For now, I'll make several suggestions depending on party knowledge and relative distance.
I'll also consider that I start after the Bard (certainly decent DEX + Jack of All Trades) and enemy Enchanter, but before Fire Giant (not that it chances much anyways).
Finally, note that Paladin has a chance to avoid Dominate of ~84% (+8 and advantage against spell save DC of 8+4+5 supposedly -I make the assumption Enchanter has 20 INT because he maxed it ASAP-). A Devotion Paladin of same level would laugh in the face of the Enchanter FYI. ;)
Paladin also has a chance to avoid Evard's Black Tentacles should he get inside, of 45%. If he fails, he can still contribute thanks to Eldricht Blast, or make a Strength check although chances or low (if I read correctly, its just a plain STR check, not an Athletics check, so proficiency won't help here. Never noticed that before. Now I see the benefit of Champion's Remarkable Athlete. ;))

a) Good knowledge of Fire Giant + it being in middle of the room (since 60 feet on ranged attack).
T1: I cast Command with +0 against a spell save DC=16, so 75% chance success. Either Grovel, or Flee, depending on whichever is best for rest of party to get the best shot at Wizard, while I close in.
T2: If Grovel, I cast Ensnaring Strike as a bonus action before using Extra Attack: DC 16 but Giant has advantage, so only 50% chance of success. If Flee, depending on whichever is closer, I use Repelling Blast to push the Giant further, Eldricht Blast directly against the caster, or Thorns Whip to bring the caster closer to effective range of the party.
My goal is to suppress the cover the Giant would normally provide to the enchanter while limiting his threat.

b) Basic knowledge of Fire Giant + it being in the middle of the room.
If the Enchanter would be in range with that combo, I advance then cast Misty Step before
- using Booming Blade with a smite on it if I can.
- cast Thorns Whip to deal damage while bringing him closer.
Otherwise, if Fire Giant is in range, I cast Wrathful Smite, close in and Extra Attack.
Otherwise, I cast Phantasmal Force to create the illusion of a creature attacking him from behind, if possible in a way that would incite him to crouch.
Afterwards, I rush to the Enchanter then Repel Blast him towards my friends if necessary or just smack him as hard as I can from "behind" (let's not "be a cover").

The Enchanter is no real threat; Fey Ancestry +8 Wis Save should see you through Dominate, Misty Step can be used to get you out of Evard's, and you've got a 70% chance to resist the Confusion.

The real threat is the Fire Giant. Your battle plans assume he is in the middle of the room, when he could be up to 80ft away from the party (15ft large, leaving a 5ft space behind him for the Enchanter). Thus even if you move 30ft on the first round, cast Command to buy yourself a round, then move 30ft next turn, you're still not in melee range. You could Dash, of course, but then you're not attacking and landing a Wrathful Smite, which means incoming damage from him that round could be very large (potentially 56 damage).

Ensnaring Strike doesn't have a 50% chance of success as you noted, unfortunately. It targets Strength, so the Giant succeeds on a roll of 9 or higher. With advantage, that's a 84% chance of success (I'm using the following probability chart for this: http://andrewgelman.com/2014/07/12/dnd-5e-advantage-disadvantage-probability/).

You also can't maintain Wrathful Smite against the Giant for long. Each hit from him will force a DC14 Concentration save, which you will make 65% of the time. As soon as your concentration is broken the Giant can kill you pretty quickly.

The only viable tactic here is to use a Phantasmal Force against the Giant, then Misty Step to avoid the tentacles. The Giant will probably attack the illusion a few times, and then start making Investigation checks to see through the illusion (only 25% chance of success). You just have to hope he doesn't succeed before the party can kill him. The illusion selected will also need to be a compelling enough target that the Giant doesn't decide to try attacking other PCs after his first few swings fail.

2. Goblins.
Disclaimer: not sure I understood how it went, so I'll do both cases.

a) Goblins always come from behind us.
I cast a Phantasmal Force of a lava torrent or anything else that would stop them right in their tracks for a while.
EDIT: Does not work, since it affects only one target. And Silent Image is not here. So only Minor Illusion, but people stressed that it may not be workable as I intend. Waiting for feedback here, not experienced enough with this cantrip.
Alternatively, I could just cast an upcast Moonbeam which I make move together with us but from a slowly increasing distance to dissuade kobolds to follow us since it would insta-kill them.

b) Goblins come from everywhere because it's a true labyrinth with many interconnections between all caverns.
I cast Darkness on something I then hold, telling my group to stick very close to me and leading them through telepathy (GOO) or code sound (Fey).
In both cases, I try to stay near Wizard to use Protection as often as possible. And since my party is sticking very close to me, they ALSO benefit from my Auras so +4 on all saves and half-damage in case of magics.
In Darkness case, as soon as we enter a zone that is straight towards the exit, I stay behind to wreak havoc amongst goblins in pursuit, before dropping the object which Darkness is cast on and running away, using Expeditious Retreat if necessary.

Strategy B is very sound, Aura of Protection + Aura of Warding + Darkness = a well protected party. Note that your Protection fighting style doesn't really add anything here though, since attacks made against the party are already at disadvantage due to Darkness.

The only potential issue here is that Darkness costs an action to cast. If the rest of the party are fleeing as fast as they can using move+dash, you'll end up 15ft behind them. This is running on the OP's assumption that the other players are basically idiots:
"During the encounters, you control only the tank; the rest of the party is played by stubborn people who just won't listen to you now matter how much sense you make"

That would force you to also use a Misty Step to catch up, on the round after Darkness is cast. So for at least 1 round the party will be vulnerable.

3. Chain Devil
My first idea was to come close to him and cast Faerie Fire (Fey). But, beyond the fact he has advantage against saving throws against magic (it's still a +2 against DC 16, so a decent 45%), I'm not sure of how would it be ruled with Darkness around. If it works, then that's my cue: Faerie Fire, then on next turn Grappling the creature to avoid its movement while all the party gangs on it from the same side of the room (so that only one chain can be used against us) at close range (because Faerie Fire is 10 feet dim light). Of course requires party to have normal darkvision.

If that would not be a thing (and so I went GOO), depending on whether I have a chance to finish him off or not, I would just rush to it and use Extra Attack with Divine Smite (Warlock slots) on hit, for up to (1d8+4+3d8)*2 damage, then just finish him next turn, or instead position myself to Repel Blast him outside of darkness so my party can unleash hell on him.

Grappling the Devil isn't guaranteed in this scenario. You're running a +7 Athletics Vs the target's +4, some bad dice rolls could see this fail a fair few times. Since Faerie Fire is a spell, I would rule that the level 7 Darkness overpowers it.

Repelling Blast x2 could potentially push the Devil out of the Darkness for a round (both have to hit), but he could just move back next round. He can attack the Paladin and use Grapple to prevent him from getting into melee range for Smite, as well.

Also to be considered is the Devil's Unnerving Mask ability. You don't have the single-classed Paladin's anti-fear aura, so there's a small chance that you'll be Frightened as soon as you see him. If you manage to Repelling Blast him out of the Darkness he could also use this against other PCs.

Lastly your weapon isn't magical. So even if you resist Unnerving Mask, AND he doesn't manage to grapple you and you get into melee range, you can only Smite at half effectiveness, forcing you to burn lots of spell slots.

This fight might not go as planned, depending on the dice gods' favour.

4. T-Rex.
Well, totally easy no? Just cast Phantasmal Force (-1 against DC 16) and the poor dinosaur will waste his turns attacking a warrior with seemingly surreal agility (or any Large creature that it would see as a threat, I admit lacking imagination here) that manages to evade bites and instead remove teeths one at a time. Meanwhile, I can either smack the thing close range (with Booming Blade just to be sure it won't move from the Phantasmal Force) or just use Repelling Blast / Thorns Whip to bring him back near the illusion in case he decides it's too difficult and decides to move away (which goes again the hypothesis given by OP though: T-REX should always attack the nearest target).
Normally, party should be safe quite a few rounds. ;)

I don't think this fight is quite as easy as you assumed. Sure, Phantasmal Force is very effective here, as the T-Rex is guaranteed to fail his save. But the T-Rex naturally wants to attack 2 targets each round, one with Bite and one with Tail. At best, the first few rounds it will try to Bite the illusion (provided the illusion looks tastier than the party) whilst battering the party or Paladin with Tail attacks. But after several Bites and no meat, it will likely try Biting a PC instead. With Booming Blade you could probably keep it relatively stationary, but you'll take a fair few Tail hits and Bites as well before you can burn through that 136HP pool.

5. Flying Monkeys.
a) still a 2nd spell slot (I should): Darkness, in which party can hide while devising a strategy using it as cover, while I spend some turns Repelling Blast or outright killing monkeys.
Or, if it's not banned per OP (not sure) and monkeys tend to group in some heights, Moonbeam: deals damage, can be moved, no need to come outside from darkness. Can be used to funnel monkeys or in combination with Repelling Blast (instead of moving it).

That strategy works, so long as the party stays in your Darkness. In the Kobold tunnels that's a fairly safe assumption, since all they can do is run and you're keeping pace with them. In this scenario, OP states:
The monkeys will throw rocks in an attempt to soften up the party as they close with them

It's the same caveat that made my initial solution of "stand back and shoot them" not quite kosher for this challenge. So you'll end up chasing after PCs (in difficult terrain) trying to keep them within your 15ft of Darkness, which they'll be trying to get out of so that they can see the Monkeys to kill them.

Summary
So all in all, I feel your build handles the Enchanter+Fire Giant better than mine (using Phantasmal Force+Misty Step), handles the Kobolds about equally (both builds leave some PCs vulnerable for a short time, mine negates attacks and provides +5 saves/Aid HP Vs yours providing disadvantage to attackers + magical DR and +4 to saves), and handles the Chain Devil, T-Rex and Monkeys worse than mine.

Citan
2017-07-09, 06:23 AM
Hi Citan,

For sure. I'll break down the build strategies and critique below.

1. Fire Giant + Enchanter
Disclaimer: I make the tactics with the assumption that party has only a relative idea of what both can do, but are not extremely informed about their weaknesses. I did have to go take a look myself though. ^^ An optimized move against the giant would be a Phantasmal Force as often, or maybe a Command: Grovel so that party can directly attack Enchanter with ranged attacks (Firebolt or weapons).

Note: it would help much knowing how far are really Giant and Enchanter from each other, and how far Giant is to the party. Because it can change much the tactic to use.
For now, I'll make several suggestions depending on party knowledge and relative distance.
I'll also consider that I start after the Bard (certainly decent DEX + Jack of All Trades) and enemy Enchanter, but before Fire Giant (not that it chances much anyways).
Finally, note that Paladin has a chance to avoid Dominate of ~84% (+8 and advantage against spell save DC of 8+4+5 supposedly -I make the assumption Enchanter has 20 INT because he maxed it ASAP-). A Devotion Paladin of same level would laugh in the face of the Enchanter FYI. ;)
Paladin also has a chance to avoid Evard's Black Tentacles should he get inside, of 45%. If he fails, he can still contribute thanks to Eldricht Blast, or make a Strength check although chances or low (if I read correctly, its just a plain STR check, not an Athletics check, so proficiency won't help here. Never noticed that before. Now I see the benefit of Champion's Remarkable Athlete. ;))

a) Good knowledge of Fire Giant + it being in middle of the room (since 60 feet on ranged attack).
T1: I cast Command with +0 against a spell save DC=16, so 75% chance success. Either Grovel, or Flee, depending on whichever is best for rest of party to get the best shot at Wizard, while I close in.
T2: If Grovel, I cast Ensnaring Strike as a bonus action before using Extra Attack: DC 16 but Giant has advantage, so only 50% chance of success. If Flee, depending on whichever is closer, I use Repelling Blast to push the Giant further, Eldricht Blast directly against the caster, or Thorns Whip to bring the caster closer to effective range of the party.
My goal is to suppress the cover the Giant would normally provide to the enchanter while limiting his threat.

b) Basic knowledge of Fire Giant + it being in the middle of the room.
If the Enchanter would be in range with that combo, I advance then cast Misty Step before
- using Booming Blade with a smite on it if I can.
- cast Thorns Whip to deal damage while bringing him closer.
Otherwise, if Fire Giant is in range, I cast Wrathful Smite, close in and Extra Attack.
Otherwise, I cast Phantasmal Force to create the illusion of a creature attacking him from behind, if possible in a way that would incite him to crouch.
Afterwards, I rush to the Enchanter then Repel Blast him towards my friends if necessary or just smack him as hard as I can from "behind" (let's not "be a cover").

The Enchanter is no real threat; Fey Ancestry +8 Wis Save should see you through Dominate, Misty Step can be used to get you out of Evard's, and you've got a 70% chance to resist the Confusion.

The real threat is the Fire Giant. Your battle plans assume he is in the middle of the room, when he could be up to 80ft away from the party (15ft large, leaving a 5ft space behind him for the Enchanter). Thus even if you move 30ft on the first round, cast Command to buy yourself a round, then move 30ft next turn, you're still not in melee range. You could Dash, of course, but then you're not attacking and landing a Wrathful Smite, which means incoming damage from him that round could be very large (potentially 56 damage).

Ensnaring Strike doesn't have a 50% chance of success as you noted, unfortunately. It targets Strength, so the Giant succeeds on a roll of 9 or higher. With advantage, that's a 84% chance of success (I'm using the following probability chart for this: http://andrewgelman.com/2014/07/12/dnd-5e-advantage-disadvantage-probability/).

You also can't maintain Wrathful Smite against the Giant for long. Each hit from him will force a DC14 Concentration save, which you will make 65% of the time. As soon as your concentration is broken the Giant can kill you pretty quickly.

The only viable tactic here is to use a Phantasmal Force against the Giant, then Misty Step to avoid the tentacles. The Giant will probably attack the illusion a few times, and then start making Investigation checks to see through the illusion (only 25% chance of success). You just have to hope he doesn't succeed before the party can kill him. The illusion selected will also need to be a compelling enough target that the Giant doesn't decide to try attacking other PCs after his first few swings fail.

2. Goblins.
Disclaimer: not sure I understood how it went, so I'll do both cases.

a) Goblins always come from behind us.
I cast a Phantasmal Force of a lava torrent or anything else that would stop them right in their tracks for a while.
EDIT: Does not work, since it affects only one target. And Silent Image is not here. So only Minor Illusion, but people stressed that it may not be workable as I intend. Waiting for feedback here, not experienced enough with this cantrip.
Alternatively, I could just cast an upcast Moonbeam which I make move together with us but from a slowly increasing distance to dissuade kobolds to follow us since it would insta-kill them.

b) Goblins come from everywhere because it's a true labyrinth with many interconnections between all caverns.
I cast Darkness on something I then hold, telling my group to stick very close to me and leading them through telepathy (GOO) or code sound (Fey).
In both cases, I try to stay near Wizard to use Protection as often as possible. And since my party is sticking very close to me, they ALSO benefit from my Auras so +4 on all saves and half-damage in case of magics.
In Darkness case, as soon as we enter a zone that is straight towards the exit, I stay behind to wreak havoc amongst goblins in pursuit, before dropping the object which Darkness is cast on and running away, using Expeditious Retreat if necessary.

Strategy B is very sound, Aura of Protection + Aura of Warding + Darkness = a well protected party. Note that your Protection fighting style doesn't really add anything here though, since attacks made against the party are already at disadvantage due to Darkness.

The only potential issue here is that Darkness costs an action to cast. If the rest of the party are fleeing as fast as they can using move+dash, you'll end up 15ft behind them. This is running on the OP's assumption that the other players are basically idiots:
"During the encounters, you control only the tank; the rest of the party is played by stubborn people who just won't listen to you now matter how much sense you make"

That would force you to also use a Misty Step to catch up, on the round after Darkness is cast. So for at least 1 round the party will be vulnerable.

3. Chain Devil
My first idea was to come close to him and cast Faerie Fire (Fey). But, beyond the fact he has advantage against saving throws against magic (it's still a +2 against DC 16, so a decent 45%), I'm not sure of how would it be ruled with Darkness around. If it works, then that's my cue: Faerie Fire, then on next turn Grappling the creature to avoid its movement while all the party gangs on it from the same side of the room (so that only one chain can be used against us) at close range (because Faerie Fire is 10 feet dim light). Of course requires party to have normal darkvision.

If that would not be a thing (and so I went GOO), depending on whether I have a chance to finish him off or not, I would just rush to it and use Extra Attack with Divine Smite (Warlock slots) on hit, for up to (1d8+4+3d8)*2 damage, then just finish him next turn, or instead position myself to Repel Blast him outside of darkness so my party can unleash hell on him.

Grappling the Devil isn't guaranteed in this scenario. You're running a +7 Athletics Vs the target's +4, some bad dice rolls could see this fail a fair few times. Since Faerie Fire is a spell, I would rule that the level 7 Darkness overpowers it.

Repelling Blast x2 could potentially push the Devil out of the Darkness for a round (both have to hit), but he could just move back next round. He can attack the Paladin and use Grapple to prevent him from getting into melee range for Smite, as well.

Also to be considered is the Devil's Unnerving Mask ability. You don't have the single-classed Paladin's anti-fear aura, so there's a small chance that you'll be Frightened as soon as you see him. If you manage to Repelling Blast him out of the Darkness he could also use this against other PCs.

Lastly your weapon isn't magical. So even if you resist Unnerving Mask, AND he doesn't manage to grapple you and you get into melee range, you can only Smite at half effectiveness, forcing you to burn lots of spell slots.

This fight might not go as planned, depending on the dice gods' favour.

4. T-Rex.
Well, totally easy no? Just cast Phantasmal Force (-1 against DC 16) and the poor dinosaur will waste his turns attacking a warrior with seemingly surreal agility (or any Large creature that it would see as a threat, I admit lacking imagination here) that manages to evade bites and instead remove teeths one at a time. Meanwhile, I can either smack the thing close range (with Booming Blade just to be sure it won't move from the Phantasmal Force) or just use Repelling Blast / Thorns Whip to bring him back near the illusion in case he decides it's too difficult and decides to move away (which goes again the hypothesis given by OP though: T-REX should always attack the nearest target).
Normally, party should be safe quite a few rounds. ;)

I don't think this fight is quite as easy as you assumed. Sure, Phantasmal Force is very effective here, as the T-Rex is guaranteed to fail his save. But the T-Rex naturally wants to attack 2 targets each round, one with Bite and one with Tail. At best, the first few rounds it will try to Bite the illusion (provided the illusion looks tastier than the party) whilst battering the party or Paladin with Tail attacks. But after several Bites and no meat, it will likely try Biting a PC instead. With Booming Blade you could probably keep it relatively stationary, but you'll take a fair few Tail hits and Bites as well before you can burn through that 136HP pool.

5. Flying Monkeys.
a) still a 2nd spell slot (I should): Darkness, in which party can hide while devising a strategy using it as cover, while I spend some turns Repelling Blast or outright killing monkeys.
Or, if it's not banned per OP (not sure) and monkeys tend to group in some heights, Moonbeam: deals damage, can be moved, no need to come outside from darkness. Can be used to funnel monkeys or in combination with Repelling Blast (instead of moving it).

That strategy works, so long as the party stays in your Darkness. In the Kobold tunnels that's a fairly safe assumption, since all they can do is run and you're keeping pace with them. In this scenario, OP states:
The monkeys will throw rocks in an attempt to soften up the party as they close with them

It's the same caveat that made my initial solution of "stand back and shoot them" not quite kosher for this challenge. So you'll end up chasing after PCs (in difficult terrain) trying to keep them within your 15ft of Darkness, which they'll be trying to get out of so that they can see the Monkeys to kill them.

Summary
So all in all, I feel your build handles the Enchanter+Fire Giant better than mine (using Phantasmal Force+Misty Step), handles the Kobolds about equally (both builds leave some PCs vulnerable for a short time, mine negates attacks and provides +5 saves/Aid HP Vs yours providing disadvantage to attackers + magical DR and +4 to saves), and handles the Chain Devil, T-Rex and Monkeys worse than mine.
Hi again!

Thanks very much for the detailed explanation. There are some things I disagree on though.

A/ I don't agree about Fire Enchanter alternate tactics you suggest.
You are right, I botched the probability on Ensnaring Strike.
However, you totally invented the part about Wrathful Smite. There is no "chance at rolling a save when you take damage". And OP said that Fire Giant will focus on the wizard, so he will NOT attack me. And even if he tried, then only I'd use Disengage and run towards the enchanter to grapple him and use him as a cover.
Same way that I could use the illusion of Phantasmal Force as a cover, maybe (I'd say it works considering how people gloat about using Minor Illusion to create hiding places, but no argument).

But it's not my only option.
Command would be the choice if the situation would allow, on a success, my whole party to directly attack the Wizard: order Giant to drop prone to blow the natural cover he provided.
Otherwise, as I said, I could directly attack the Wizard with Repelling Blast (Spell Sniper) or, if in range, use Misty Step to reach and grapple him or smite him.
If the Giant is as far away as 80 feet, then I'd attack HIM with Repelling Blast, to make him crush the enchanter against the wall (well, DM ruling here obviously).
I see no reason either to use Misty Steps preventively, unless the Fire Giant would totally block view: it's plain better to try luck and either blast the enchanter directly (Repelling Blast = 2 chances at breaking concentration) or use Misty Step after the fact because I failed the save and are too much threatened.
In general, I try to be as conservative as possible of my slots anyways. Even if Warlock allows me to blow a few more. ;)

(Honestly, with a normal party -not a -10 INT one- I'd either ask to be Enlarged, then put a Hex on STR to Shove him prone, or ask someone to Blind him, or ask for a Haste buff to go grapple the enchanter and bring him back in the middle of the group as a cover and target practice, etc. This encounter should normally be no problem even with a standard spell selection)...

B/ About the Kobolds
Honestly I think my build fares better, simply because it takes only one turn to cast for the whole party vs 3 for you. And again, I think your view of them just running away stupidly is not what OP had in mind. Otherwise, I'll have to throw the stone and be a vulnerable target for one round (or I may wait the next turn to throw the stone, catching it on the fly as I Misty Step before catching up with pals, because much more classy o/).

C/ I don't agree about my build handling Chain Devil worse.
Paladin would have a very very low chance to fear (advantage against fear/charm + Aura + wisdom proficiency = +8 with advantage against DC 14, so ~94% chance of success) so not a problem. While all your other remarks are sound, especially about Devil coming right back into the center on its turn, you still have all your other people that can hit him meanwhile (unless you had very back luck on Initiative and Devil's comes just after yours).
Also, if I succeeded in applying Faerie Fire, it's already an immense boost to the party, so instead of grappling him I may just apply some Eldricht Blast or Booming Blade to help him focus on me mainly. Or just Dodge.
Even with the fear effect, party members who would risk being affected would just need to break vision as soon as they finished attacking from range to stay into darkness (I can tell them exactly where he is).
Faerie Fire vs Darkness, honestly I see it going both ways, because there is the "level vs level aspect", but there is also the "special vs general" aspect. But I understand if DMs say "no".
I could then consider casting a Moonbeam instead to force him away (AFB so don't remember if it wouldn't be too big though). Or having prepared a Branding Smite (although here it's metagaming, because I honestly don't prepare it unless I know there is a chance of fighting invisible people).
Also, Divine Smite is absolutely not affected by resistance to physical damage. Divine Smite is radiant damage, from a non-spell origin, so it's full damage. So no problem there.
Finally, I told I'd use Divine Smite because it seems better to finish the fight early. But if Faerie Fire or Branding Smite works, then I could hang back and just draw the attacks while Dodging, using Repelling Blast if Devil's chain hit me. Because as said, I can tell people where the Devil is so they can start their turn in darkness, move, attack and go back. Of course in that case they would have to split in case the Devil tries to use Faerie Fire/Branding Smite to its advantage by sticking right close to an ally. ;)

Finally, Ensnaring Strike could have been a pretty decent option in a "normal" party: while by default chances of success are very low, with a Lore Bard or Diviner Wizard it could work fairly well. ;)

D/ About the T-Rex
I totally missed that part about taking different targets. Well then, I guess I... would suffer? XD A Pure Paladin could may have spared a Blinding Smite for this situation indeed. ;)
But then I can just spend my action on Dodging: +10 to hit with disadvantage against AC 20 amounts to ~30% chance to hit me: one attack per turn, with average 20 damage (so concentration check DC 10-12, with a +6 to roll, not so hard ;)).

With that said, again, normally the Cleric would agree to cast either Warding Bond or Sanctuary, or both, on me, or Blind the creature, or cast a Web... Ah well... XD
Anwyays, I'd just be the meat shield while everyone peppers him from range until it's weak enough for me to have a chance of landing a finishing blow.

Or maybe (thinking "loud" here), since I have Repelling Blast, I could just make sure that T-Rex never gets to its second target (like party ___ T-REX ___ Phantasmal Force, using the Repelling Blast to keep the PF closer to T-Rex, so T-Rex goes first to it, then has no enough movement left to reach us). Probably not a thing achievable every turn, but I'd say at least 1 turns on 2, or maybe 2 turns on 3...

E/ About the Monkeys
Well, if they are really that stupid, I'll give the rock to one member instead or directly put inside his pocket or so to protect them in spite of them while I'm sniping away the Monkeys. Or throw the rock towards them when they stopped to protect them between turns. Or just Dash to keep up. ;)
Or maybe, depending on how many Monkeys are on view, I'd just use Repelling Blast straight from the start (with a Moonbeam to help XD). Although indeed, like yours, it's again OP rules because just "killing first".
But I honestly don't think they are supposed to be that stupid. They are just supposed to be hard-headed, so not listening to any order or suggestion you may give them to. But not refusing a good cover when it's offered? I do not see this happening.


In a more general way, you seem to count a bit too much on the Aid mitigation, but it's 10 HP per person once. It may be used even as soon as the first encounter for you and Wizard at least.
Honestly I didn't miss that bit but I'd say it's a very bad use of your 3rd level slot: you could instead...
- Dispel Magic the Darkness for Devil or...
- Cast a Magic Circle before starting the fight since you sensed the devil anyways (although this is borderline metagaming, since AFAIR you don't know precisely the kind of devil).
- Blinding Smite the T-Rex for example.
- Or keep it for a more powerful smite.
- Or even use it on a out of combat Aura of Vitality, to help heal a badly hurt ally and let your Cleric pals keep a few slots for the next fight (times better if the Cleric was smart enough to cast a Beacon of Hope, but anyways).
However I forgot about the bit of being frightened preventing coming closer. So I may use that Wrathful Smite tactic also with my build instead for the T-Rew, since it's a lesser consumption and more efficient.

So to summarize, your build is probably better for the Chain Devil (less ambiguity about Sacred Weapon / Darkness interaction), and for Monkeys only provided that the party is THAT stupid (which I really don't think, but we'd need OP's return on this). But apart from Sanctuary, Aid, Sacred Weapon and Aura of Vitality, most of what you do is something any Paladin can do, my multiclassed included (including the Find Steed tactic and Wrathful tactic, which are great indeed).
Except mine has more versatility and as such can answer a larger array of situations. ;)
Yours though shine on pure offense efficiency thanks to Sacred Weapon which allowed you to max your CHA, although it does cost a bit in action economy. ^^ So if we were to both make exactly the same rolls for every similar action, the pure Devotion Paladin would certainly win with a large margin thanks to avoiding more effects and sticking more weapon attacks (and spells). ;)

Squibsallotl
2017-07-09, 09:39 AM
Hey Citan,

Some good points, but you've also made a fair amount of false assumptions and mistakes, IMO.



However, you totally invented the part about Wrathful Smite. There is no "chance at rolling a save when you take damage". And OP said that Fire Giant will focus on the wizard, so he will NOT attack me.

This is incorrect, based on OP:
The giant will throw rocks at the party wizard until engaged in melee. Once engaged, the giant will focus on eliminating the tank

Emphasis mine. I also did not invent the need to make saving throws to maintain Wrathful Smite when taking damage. From the PHB:
Wrathful Smite
1st-level evocation
Casting Time: 1 bonus action
Range: Self
Components: V
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute

Taking damage. Whenever you take damage while
you are concentrating on a spell, you must make a
Constitution saving throw to maintain your concentration.
The DC equals 10 or half the damage you take,
whichever number is higher.

The Giant hits for 28 damage, thus forcing a DC14 Concentration save. If you fail the save, the Frightened condition ends for the Giant.


And even if he tried, then only I'd use Disengage and run towards the enchanter to grapple him and use him as a cover.

If that takes you out of melee range of the Giant you risk him resuming throwing rocks at the party Wizard. It also takes an action to Disengage, so you couldn't grapple the Enchanter same turn. Being a high level Wizard its also relatively fair to assume he may have Misty Step prepared.

But lets say both are close enough to still be in melee range, and the Wizard does not have Misty Step or Acrobatics proficiency. You still take 2 turns to achieve this using Misty Step, or 3 with Disengage (round 1, move 30ft into the room, cast Command, get Giant to grovel. round 2, move + misty step to get to the Wizard, attempt to Grapple). By then the Wizard is close to dead anyway and you've got an angry Giant mauling you from behind.

You're a Half-Elf Paladin with a high Wis save and Misty Step. You don't need to worry about the Enchanter, you need to worry about the Giant.


If the Giant is as far away as 80 feet, then I'd attack HIM with Repelling Blast, to make him crush the enchanter against the wall (well, DM ruling here obviously).

Repelling the Giant doesn't crush the Wizard, RAW. Considering this is an optimisation challenge and not a casual tabletop where a DM may hand wave it for dramatic effect, it shouldn't be relied on.

Realistically the only way for your build to cleanly defeat the Giant is Phantasmal Force, and hoping the Giant doesn't make the save or succeed at an Investigation check. Run a combat simulation for this without Phantasmal Force if you don't believe me. My build only succeeds due to 16 Con, Aid HP, Lay on Hands HP, and a persistent Wrathful Smite from round 1.


B/ About the Kobolds
Honestly I think my build fares better, simply because it takes only one turn to cast for the whole party vs 3 for you. And again, I think your view of them just running away stupidly is not what OP had in mind. Otherwise, I'll have to throw the stone and be a vulnerable target for one round (or I may wait the next turn to throw the stone, catching it on the fly as I Misty Step before catching up with pals, because much more classy o/).

Casting Darkness on a stone, throwing it ahead, and then catching up with Misty Step neatly solves the action econony/speed issue. Provided the DM allows throwing the stone to be done in the same action, using the Interact with an Object rule. If he/she does, then I agree, your build handles the Kobolds better.


C/ I don't agree about my build handling Chain Devil worse.
Paladin would have a very very low chance to fear (advantage against fear/charm + Aura + wisdom proficiency = +8 with advantage against DC 14, so ~94% chance of success) so not a problem.

Where are you getting Advantage from? Fey Ancestry grants advantage on saves Vs Charm and immunity to Sleep, but does nothing for Fear. And Paladins don't get Fear immunity till 10th level. So the probability of succeeding on the save should be 75%. Still high, but not beyond the realm of possibility. And the Devil can keep using this ability round after round.


Also, if I succeeded in applying Faerie Fire, it's already an immense boost to the party, so instead of grappling him I may just apply some Eldricht Blast or Booming Blade to help him focus on me mainly. Or just Dodge.

With the Devil's magic resistance he has a 57% chance of making the save. So that one's a coin toss.


Also, Divine Smite is absolutely not affected by resistance to physical damage. Divine Smite is radiant damage, from a non-spell origin, so it's full damage. So no problem there.

I disagree, since nowhere in either Divine Smite's description nor the description for Radiant Damage explicitly say that the effect is magical. But Sage advice seems to favour your interpretation, sans the base weapon damage remaining non-magical:
http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/08/21/is-divine-smite-entire-attack-magical/

So you'd get the Radiant damage through in full, but your weapon damage and Str modifier damage should still be halved.


D/ About the T-Rex
I totally missed that part about taking different targets. Well then, I guess I... would suffer? XD A Pure Paladin could may have spared a Blinding Smite for this situation indeed. ;)
But then I can just spend my action on Dodging: +10 to hit with disadvantage against AC 20 amounts to ~30% chance to hit me: one attack per turn, with average 20 damage (so concentration check DC 10-12, with a +6 to roll, not so hard ;)).

There are a few more problems here. The T-Rex's Bite attack also Restrains you, which drops your speed to 0 and prevents you from Dodging. It also inflicts Disadvantage on your attacks and Advantage on his. So as soon as he lands one Bite, he's suddenly hitting you for 33 damage per hit, 80% of the time.

Furthermore, this is assuming that you're co-tanking him with a Phantasmal Force illusion, which is a Concentration spell. Tail hits aren't so bad, forcing DC10 Concentration saves. But Bite would result in a DC16 Concentration save, which with your +6 bonus you may well fail, particularly from repeated Bites. Once Phantasmal Force drops he starts Tail attacks against the party.


In a more general way, you seem to count a bit too much on the Aid mitigation, but it's 10 HP per person once. It may be used even as soon as the first encounter for you and Wizard at least.

15HP for 3 party members, and it lasts 8 hours. This isn't temporary HP, their HP maximums are increased by 15. So for every fight they (and me) effectively have a +15HP barrier, provided they're healed to full at the end of each fight.


Honestly I didn't miss that bit but I'd say it's a very bad use of your 3rd level slot: you could instead...
- Dispel Magic the Darkness for Devil or...

Unlikely to work, I'd be making a Charisma check Vs DC17. And Sacred Weapon should dispel it anyway.


- Cast a Magic Circle before starting the fight since you sensed the devil anyways (although this is borderline metagaming, since AFAIR you don't know precisely the kind of devil).

Doesn't work, Magic Circle either keeps things out or keeps things in. I can't cast it around the Devil without it seeing me, and if I cast it around the party a room away we don't progress. Trying to kite it back to our prepared circle is possible I guess, but I doubt the Devil would want to leave its death-trap of Darkness + Chains.


- Blinding Smite the T-Rex for example.

Don't need to, Wrathful Smite with a Find Steed Warhorse and a Longbow kills the T-Rex without me or the party taking any damage.


However I forgot about the bit of being frightened preventing coming closer. So I may use that Wrathful Smite tactic also with my build instead for the T-Rew, since it's a lesser consumption and more efficient.

And how will you maintain it? Concentration spell, can't keep it and Phantasmal Force both running. And if you close into melee and cast it, the T-Rex gets at least one round to Bite you back, which you have to hope doesn't land or you get 33 damage, Restrained and a DC16 Concentration save. As well as a Tail attack against the next closest PC. If you get lucky and evade that (and your ally does as well) you have to try and stay mobile enough that the T-Rex doesn't circle around you to attack the party, and his speed is 50ft.

The only way this tactic works properly is with a 60ft mount, namely Find Steed for a Warhorse.

Citan
2017-07-09, 03:09 PM
Hey Citan,

Some good points, but you've also made a fair amount of false assumptions and mistakes, IMO.



This is incorrect, based on OP:
The giant will throw rocks at the party wizard until engaged in melee. Once engaged, the giant will focus on eliminating the tank

Emphasis mine. I also did not invent the need to make saving throws to maintain Wrathful Smite when taking damage. From the PHB:
Wrathful Smite
1st-level evocation
Casting Time: 1 bonus action
Range: Self
Components: V
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute

Taking damage. Whenever you take damage while
you are concentrating on a spell, you must make a
Constitution saving throw to maintain your concentration.
The DC equals 10 or half the damage you take,
whichever number is higher.

The Giant hits for 28 damage, thus forcing a DC14 Concentration save. If you fail the save, the Frightened condition ends for the Giant.



If that takes you out of melee range of the Giant you risk him resuming throwing rocks at the party Wizard. It also takes an action to Disengage, so you couldn't grapple the Enchanter same turn. Being a high level Wizard its also relatively fair to assume he may have Misty Step prepared.

But lets say both are close enough to still be in melee range, and the Wizard does not have Misty Step or Acrobatics proficiency. You still take 2 turns to achieve this using Misty Step, or 3 with Disengage (round 1, move 30ft into the room, cast Command, get Giant to grovel. round 2, move + misty step to get to the Wizard, attempt to Grapple). By then the Wizard is close to dead anyway and you've got an angry Giant mauling you from behind.

You're a Half-Elf Paladin with a high Wis save and Misty Step. You don't need to worry about the Enchanter, you need to worry about the Giant.



Repelling the Giant doesn't crush the Wizard, RAW. Considering this is an optimisation challenge and not a casual tabletop where a DM may hand wave it for dramatic effect, it shouldn't be relied on.

Realistically the only way for your build to cleanly defeat the Giant is Phantasmal Force, and hoping the Giant doesn't make the save or succeed at an Investigation check. Run a combat simulation for this without Phantasmal Force if you don't believe me. My build only succeeds due to 16 Con, Aid HP, Lay on Hands HP, and a persistent Wrathful Smite from round 1.



Casting Darkness on a stone, throwing it ahead, and then catching up with Misty Step neatly solves the action econony/speed issue. Provided the DM allows throwing the stone to be done in the same action, using the Interact with an Object rule. If he/she does, then I agree, your build handles the Kobolds better.



Where are you getting Advantage from? Fey Ancestry grants advantage on saves Vs Charm and immunity to Sleep, but does nothing for Fear. And Paladins don't get Fear immunity till 10th level. So the probability of succeeding on the save should be 75%. Still high, but not beyond the realm of possibility. And the Devil can keep using this ability round after round.



With the Devil's magic resistance he has a 57% chance of making the save. So that one's a coin toss.



I disagree, since nowhere in either Divine Smite's description nor the description for Radiant Damage explicitly say that the effect is magical. But Sage advice seems to favour your interpretation, sans the base weapon damage remaining non-magical:
http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/08/21/is-divine-smite-entire-attack-magical/

So you'd get the Radiant damage through in full, but your weapon damage and Str modifier damage should still be halved.



There are a few more problems here. The T-Rex's Bite attack also Restrains you, which drops your speed to 0 and prevents you from Dodging. It also inflicts Disadvantage on your attacks and Advantage on his. So as soon as he lands one Bite, he's suddenly hitting you for 33 damage per hit, 80% of the time.

Furthermore, this is assuming that you're co-tanking him with a Phantasmal Force illusion, which is a Concentration spell. Tail hits aren't so bad, forcing DC10 Concentration saves. But Bite would result in a DC16 Concentration save, which with your +6 bonus you may well fail, particularly from repeated Bites. Once Phantasmal Force drops he starts Tail attacks against the party.



15HP for 3 party members, and it lasts 8 hours. This isn't temporary HP, their HP maximums are increased by 15. So for every fight they (and me) effectively have a +15HP barrier, provided they're healed to full at the end of each fight.



Unlikely to work, I'd be making a Charisma check Vs DC17. And Sacred Weapon should dispel it anyway.



Doesn't work, Magic Circle either keeps things out or keeps things in. I can't cast it around the Devil without it seeing me, and if I cast it around the party a room away we don't progress. Trying to kite it back to our prepared circle is possible I guess, but I doubt the Devil would want to leave its death-trap of Darkness + Chains.



Don't need to, Wrathful Smite with a Find Steed Warhorse and a Longbow kills the T-Rex without me or the party taking any damage.



And how will you maintain it? Concentration spell, can't keep it and Phantasmal Force both running. And if you close into melee and cast it, the T-Rex gets at least one round to Bite you back, which you have to hope doesn't land or you get 33 damage, Restrained and a DC16 Concentration save. As well as a Tail attack against the next closest PC. If you get lucky and evade that (and your ally does as well) you have to try and stay mobile enough that the T-Rex doesn't circle around you to attack the party, and his speed is 50ft.

The only way this tactic works properly is with a 60ft mount, namely Find Steed for a Warhorse.
As I said, that's something the Ancients Paladin can do as well. So no problem here.

Also, if I used Phantasmal Force, I'd Dodge right away. So low chance of getting hit. If T-Rex hit me, I can use Misty Step (provided I still have a slot) or use Repelling Blast, depending on how DM would rule it (I'd totally rule that you break the bite but have nothing about RAW to support it).

About Magic Circle, yes it would work. You don't care about party not being able to progress in the room. As soon as the Devil can't enter, since he has only melee attacks, you can just all pepper him even at wild guess, or have you only go and use Sacred Weapon to attack and make him visible while the party stays inside. Because the smallness of the room would then work against the Devil instead of empowering him.
It's by far the best strategy: you basically just have to take care of the chains on the side you are on, then take any time you need to kill the Devil, without him being able to harm the party in any way.

About Kobolds, I'm sorry but Ancients Paladin fares still better imo, even without Misty Step (or rather especially without). Because quicker to enable, lesser cost (1 2nd level vs 3 1st level). And I also provide resistance against magic effects (which are supposedly a thing).

About Giant, I forgot about the bit on him turning to melee, but I don't see the problem: either I use Phantasmal Force and pepper from distance with Repelling Blast alongside with party before taking care of the enchanter, or I engage with Wrathful Smite then rush towards the enchanter: at the end of things, if Giant follows me and enchanter Misty Step away, he will end "behind" the Giant so totally exposed to the rest of the party.
Oh wait, in fact he cannot, because he's frightened of me. So either DM continues on the "stupidity" path and Giant would do nothing, or Giant throws rocks at me (so I use
Enchanter as a cover, works at least for one turn), or Giant throws rocks at Wizard (then I go back and put myself in front of him so he can duck behind me to get cover).
And since he gets disadvantage on attacks, it's +11 with disadvantage against either AC 20 me) or AC 18 (supposedly Mage Armor with 16 DEX, +2 AC from cover).
Or I could even use Minor Illusion to create 3/4 cover (5 feet tall "wall"), which Fire Giant has very little chance to dismiss (since it's an Intelligence check) to use either for myself or the Wizard. Then it's another +5 AC against the "only ranged" attacks (since Fire Giant cannot come closer, he cannot go around that cover).
And if concentration fails in the end because Giant went hard at me, then I can cast Shield of Faith instead. :)

About Aid, true it's a "refillable buffer", and it's nice, but it does not change the total potential HP over a day. You are either relying on Cleric here to fill HP between fights (which should be forbidden since you consider them particularly stupid ^^), or on short rest restoration mechanic (so only once between encounters). And it's 10 HP, NOT 15.. Please reread the spell: it's a 2nd level spell which provides 5 HP, and only 5 more HP per upcast level: you are casting it at a 3rd level spell per your say, so it's 10 HP for each creature.
By the way, that's also something the Ancients Paladin could do if he thought it a decent tactic (although only as a 2nd level spell, but he could pre-cast it with Warlock slots then take a short rest before "really starting" the adventuring day).

That's why I think my build is better overall: most of the good tactics you provide are also available (provided I swap some spells prepared, but really easy to do since I used only half of what I proposed in the first place). But I have a few more tricks up my bag which are reliable even with a lower CHA, and permanent resistance against magic which should help in many other situations (even if technically for this challenge it's used mainly for second, and partially first encounter).
(Also, with just the next level, I can shore up CHA or take Warcaster -latter prefered- as Paladin 8, and I get a third ray of Eldricht Blast. And on normal adventuring days I'd end with a bit, or much more, fuel, thanks to short rests. But sadly this is beyond scope).

Now, as I said, if we had to make the same rolls for any given action, Devotion Paladin would certainly trump Ancients hard, thanks to a much better to-hit and DC. ;)

Squibsallotl
2017-07-09, 06:03 PM
Good catch on Aid, thanks for that. I was theorycrafting a Cleric tank at one point who was using higher level slots to cast it, must have stuck in my mind as +15.

Regarding being able to use most of my tactics (Wrathful + Find Steed for instance), of course you could. You're also a Paladin. But your proposed build does not, as written. You could say "oh well then i do this" to every retort, but then you haven't picked a definitive course of action for the purposes of this challenge.

Besides which, have you checked that you actually have the spell slots free for Find Steed over the course of the 5 encounters? There's a lot of Darkness and Misty Step being used, as well as Smites against the Devil.

Other than that, let's look at it from this angle. By going ancients 7/warlock 3 you gain :
Stronger ranged attack with EB
Resistance to spell damage in an aura
2x 2nd level spell slots which recharge on short rest
Access to Warlock spells and invocations
Misty Step as a class spell
Ensnaring Strike, which doesn't really help much in this challenge (ideally you want medium-sized, low-Strength targets, such as archers or skirmishers. Not Fire Giants and T-Rexes).

What i gain by going pure Devotion paladin:
Immunity to charm, in an aura
Immunity to fear, in an aura
+15 Lay on Hands HP
+5 to my attack rolls 1/SR from Sacred Weapon
Sanctuary as a class spell
+1 to all saves (and ally saves) from the extra ASI in Charisma
+1 to spell save DCs
+3hp from class levels
Access to 3rd level spells, including Aura of Vitality
Extra feat from Vhuman, as immunity to charm means i don't care about half elf fey ancestry.

There are also the natural advantages of a Dex-based build here, such as higher initiative (the tank that acts sooner prevents more damage) and boosting a more commonly targeted saving throw. The ability to use Charisma as an attack-stat booster when it matters (against high AC targets or bosses) also lets me raise Charisma aggressively without gimping myself as a melee combatant, gaining that +5 to all saves for me and the party sooner.

And the higher saves + higher Con bonus + Resilient feat from Vhuman means I can reliably maintain concentration spells (like bless, wrathful smite, and aura of vitality) in melee even against hard hitting opponents, where the tank should be (you're not a controller, Harry).

I still maintain that my build and proposed tactics are the better *tank*. But it looks like we'll probably need to agree to disagree, or wait for these elusive competition judges to adjudicate :)

Squibsallotl
2017-07-13, 02:21 AM
I really wish a martial (or mostly martial) character of some sort could tackle this challenge. I've been trying to create something with minimal or no spellcasting, and it always fails on one of the first two encounters.

Anything tough enough to stand up to the Giant, usually gets CCed by the Enchanter (Dominate can be defeated by Fey Ancestry/Duergar Resilience/Mindless Rage etc, but then Evard's comes in targeting a different save, and then Confusion...). And the rare martial Tank that can handle both, has no means of defending a party against the Kobolds.

The remaining encounters aren't that tough, by contrast. They're just a war of attrition on resources.

Here's my latest attempt. He doesn't do as well as the Devotion paladin, but I think making a build that can grapple+prone a Fire Giant is still pretty cool.

Duergar Battlemaster 6 / Lore Bard 4

Feats: Resilient (Wis), Warcaster, ASI (+2 Str)

Str 18
Con 14
Dex 8
Int 10
Wis 14
Cha 14

AC: 21 (Full Plate + Shield + Defense style)
HP: 80

Saves:
Str +8, Con +6, Dex -1, Int +0, Wis +6, Cha +2

Skills:
Fighter: Athletics*, Perception*
Multiclass Bard: Persuasion
College of Lore: Intimidation, Deception, Insight
Background (Entertainer - Variant Gladiator): Acrobatics, Performance
*double proficiency due to Expertise

Battlemaster maneuvers known:
Menacing Attack, Rally, Riposte

Bard spells known (7):
Cantrips: Blade Ward, Friends, Minor Illusion
1st (4 slots): Feather fall, Healing Word, Longstrider
2nd (3 slots): Cloud of Daggers, Enhance Ability, Phantasmal Force, Warding Wind

Enchanter and Fire Giant:
I listen at the door before entering, and can hear words in Giant being spoken, as well as stomping and heat (+9 Perception). I pre-cast: Longstrider and Enlarge/Reduce to make myself Large, then enter the room.

Enchanter goes first and tries to Dominate me. I have advantage due to Duergar Resilience and have a 75% success chance Vs DC 17.

My turn, and I move + dash to get in melee range with the Giant (provided he's within 70ft) then Action Surge and make two attacks against him. If either hit, I will use Menacing Attack to impose the Frightened condition (DC 17 Wis save, Giant has a 30% chance to pass).

Giant's turn, who attacks me twice at disadvantage. He again has a 30% chance to hit. If he does manage to hit I have an 87% chance to maintain Enlarge/Reduce due to advantage from War Caster.

Party's turn, who deal 20 damage to the Enchanter.

Enchanter's turn, who casts Evard's Black Tentacles. I fail the save and become Restrained and take some damage.

My turn, and I attempt to Grapple the Giant. My Athletics is +12 Vs the Giant's +11, but I have advantage on the check (from Enlarge/Reduce) while he has disadvantage (from Frightened), and I can further debuff his check with Cutting Words (-d6). If I succeed, I then Shove the Giant prone (another contested Athletics check). If I took any damage from the Giant's earlier attacks I Second Wind. I mock the Giant, hoping to provoke it into attacking me.

Giant's turn, who is now Prone and Grappled. He can spend his action trying to escape, or he can attack me (without penalty, as Evard's cancels out Prone disadvantage).

Party's turn, deal 20 damage to the Enchanter.

Enchanter's turn, who casts Confusion (ending Evard's). I have a 50% chance to make the save. If I fail the save and the Giant escaped the grapple I have to hope I can act normally next round, but he might not have escaped and I might not fail.

My turn. If the Giant escaped (and I'm not Confused, or if I am and succeed on the roll to act normally) I will try to Menancing Attack followed by Grapple. If he's still grappled I will attack twice and use a Healing Word on myself if needed.

Giant's turn, who should be some combination of grappled+frightened+prone. Can choose to attack me or escape.

Party's turn, deal 20 damage to the Enchanter and kill him, ending Confusion.

I continue to keep the Giant grappled+afraid+prone as long as possible, using Healing Words to keep my HP in the positives.

Resources expended: 1-3 uses of Cutting Words, Second Wind, Action Surge, Enlarge/Reduce, 2-3 Superiority dice, 4x 1st level spell slots (Longstrider and 2-3x Healing Word), as well as (probably) a fair chunk of HP.

Too many resources expended to last 4 more fights, alas.

ShneekeyTheLost
2017-07-13, 03:24 AM
Actually, straight Berzerker Barbarian ought to do pretty darn well in all four situations

In the first encounter, he's immune to Dominate while Raging and very likely to pass the check on Tentacles. He's got Resistance to damage from the Fire Giant which means that, worst case, he can face-tank it long enough. Plus bonus action attack, rage damage... you're very likely to be doing more damage than he is. And there's at least a chance that Intimidating Presence might hit either the caster or the giant, which really trivializes the encounter. Doing a drive-by hit on the enchanter likely kills it in a single round, making the encounter trivial.

In the second encounter, you have to realize that tunnels are a stupidly easy thing to defend, as you only have in front or behind except at intersections. With Fast Movement, you can head up to the next intersection, letting your allies pass while you fend them off, then charge ahead to catch up and overtake your allies for the next. Intimidating Presence is going to let you keep them at bay while your party members pass through.

In the third, assuming a 10th level character has not yet found even a +1 weapon (so unlikely as to be non-existent unless you're just flat declaring zero magic items exist ever), he's still able to face-tank the Chain Devil and out-damage him. He is not going to fail a grapple check since he's got advantage and a pretty high grapple check, he can use Reckless Attack to negate disadvantage, and has no real reason not to since you can't be more advantageous than Advantage anyway. While it is doubtful your Intimidating Presence will land on him... there's a chance, which will trivialize the encounter.

In the fourth, the T-Rex has no chance in hell. It's not going to land a grapple, resistance to its damage lets me trivially face-tank, and with a poor Wis save Intimidating Presence will trivialize the encounter. Other than that, damage output of 'screw you' drops it in a few rounds regardless.

For the final encounter, he starts chucking thrown weapons such as javelins at them until they start focusing on him. Grapple checks are unlikely at best, and any monkey who gets into melee gets killed in one round.

Citan
2017-07-13, 06:41 AM
I still maintain that my build and proposed tactics are the better *tank*. But it looks like we'll probably need to agree to disagree, or wait for these elusive competition judges to adjudicate :)
I forgot about the Resilient: Con part, true that. ;)
As I said, if you consider pure rolling efficiency, your build is clearly better, except for the Kobolds where we have no idea of the amount of save effects unleashed on the party.
Simply because you have better chance to land every hit, make spells sticks, and avoid effects.
Whichever tactic is best though, I won't go into debate here because I think in the end there are too many parameters missing to really try and theorize outcome. :) SO I'll let OP decide on that if he's still interested. (I don't think so though XD).

Note though that I indeed have enough 2nd slots for at least 1*2nd level spell per encounter: Paladin provides 3 of them, Warlock 2, and I could take one short rest for 2 more. :)
My main argument for considering that my build is "better" is more about
a) Superior versatility...
- In that particular exercise: I just pointed out that, if other people in the forum said "hey, Squibsallot's Find Steed is the best tactic", it's something I could do with that build. Although I didn't explore it (I thought about the spell, but couldn't find how to use it well, so hat down to you for that ;)). So while I myself didn't think about it, it's within its potential. :)
- In any "normal" day with "normal" party: I have many more options to adapt to the situation (including slightly better ranged attacks than you, thanks to Spell Sniper) and potentially more spell slots thanks to the short-rest recovery (it's probably more or less the same with 2 short-rests, too lazy to make maths with spell points conversion though). And in most encounters chances are you will be subjected to a few spells (whereas in this particular exercise, spells against party are very sparse) making the Aura of Warding much more useful than it is in OP.

b) Better growing potential on the next level
On next level, whether I go Paladin or Warlock, I get an ASI to bump CHA with along with another Eldricht Blast ray (and more generally better cantrips). I could even take the other class for the level coming after, stacking 2 consecutive ASI, if I felt it useful (like, bumping CHA then take Warcaster).
On 11th level, Paladin gets "only" Improved Divine Smite: strong benefit certainly, but applies only to melee weapon attacks.
So, by that time, the multiclass is only one ASI behind and (probably) only 1 mod behind, but still has spellcasting fuel of similar level (pure Paladin probably has more though until multiclass gets either Paladin 9 or Warlock 5) and overall more options (pure Paladin has access to 3rd level spells, of which nearly all are great imo: but you are still limited in the number of spells you can prepare).

Still, I'm indeed biaised by my own personal preferences: I really make a point of being balanced in all aspects and having many tools available because I hate finding myself in a situation where I have no efficient thing to do. So I'd perfectly understand one telling "hey, I don't care about ranged attacks, I just rush into melee anyways" (although I'd argue there are many times where this is just not possible, between covers, difficult terrain or unbearable obstacle -or high-flying creatures-). Or "hey, who cares about being able to create a visibility obstacle against an enemy? It's better to just kill it quicker in the first place" ( although, again, not always possible. ^^).

It depends much on the party that goes with though. I'd be perfectly fine being a reckless smiting grunt if I know my party will give me the mobility and cover I need. :)
That's probably the reason we'll always disagree, because we have here to theorycraft without knowing anything about the rest of the party (and not even able to count on basic tactics such as Bless / Fog Cloud / Blindness / Heat Metal / Haste / Wall of Force etc). And in such a situation, "as many options as possible in offense/defense/utility" is my way to go. XD

Squibsallotl
2017-07-14, 02:29 AM
Ok, you want versatile? :)

Tabaxi Valor Bard 6 / Wild Sorcerer 4
Feats: Sentinel, Mobile

Str 8
Con 14
Dex 16
Int 10
Wis 10
Cha 16

AC: 19 (Half Plate + Shield)
HP: 68

Saves:
Str -1, Con +6, Dex +3, Int -1, Wis +1, Cha +7

Skills:
Sorcerer: Deception, Persuasion
Multiclass Bard: Arcana
Cat's Talent: Perception*, Stealth
Background (Entertainer): Acrobatics*, Performance
*double proficiency due to Expertise

Bard spells known:
Cantrips: Vicious Mockery, Minor Illusion, Blade Ward
1st: Cure Wounds, Longstrider, Dissonant Whispers, Faerie Fire
2nd: Silence, Detect Thoughts, Phantasmal Force
3rd: Major Image, Plant Growth

Sorcerer spells known:
Cantrips: Booming Blade, Green-Flame Blade, Lightning Lure, Sword Burst, Chill Touch
1st: Shield, Fog Cloud
2nd: Mirror Image, Warding Wind, Web

Spell slots:
1st: 4, 2nd: 3, 3rd: 3, 4th: 3, 5th: 2

Metamagic:
Quickened Spell, Subtle Spell

Features:
Feline Agility, Tides of Chaos, Bardic Inspiration (d8), Jack of all Trades, Song of Rest (d6), Font of

Inspiration, Countercharm, Combat Inspiration, Extra Attack

Enchanter with Fire Giant Bodyguard:
Pre-cast before fight: Longstrider
Pre-cast immediately before fight (detect presence of enemies with +8 perception check): Mirror Image

Hopefully win Initiative with a +5 to the check (dex + jack of all trades). Use Feline Agility to gain 100ft speed for the round, and sprint over to stand next to the Enchanter. I attack the Fire Giant twice as I pass (triggering Mobile and preventing him from making opportunity attacks against me) and then when I'm right next to the Enchanter I cast a Quickened Silence spell over our heads.

Enchanter's turn, who can't cast spells. He can't move away from me without provoking an opportunity attack due to Sentinel, and if I hit with the attack his speed is reduced to 0. He can't Shield or Misty Step either due to Silence. If he attempts to move away and I roll poorly on the OA I use Tides of Chaos to gain advantage on the roll.

Fire Giant's turn, who should take out a few of my Mirror Images.

Party's turn, who deal 20 damage to the Enchanter.

On my turn, I use my Interact with an Object free action to scatter a bag of saplings around our feet, and then cast a Subtle Spell Plant Growth to create difficult terrain around the Enchanter for even harder control. This also frees up my reaction to start using Shield against the Fire Giant's attacks.

Enchanter's turn, who if he moves + dashes can only make it 15ft through the Plant Growth barrier, and I can pull him back to me on my turn using Lightning Lure.

Fire Giant's turn, who may be starting to get some hits through. I Shield against them for AC 24. If one still manages to get through I've got a 70% chance to make the Concentration save for Silence (and may also still have Tides of Chaos ready for advantage if needed).

Party's turn, who deal 20 damage to the Enchanter.

I attack the Enchanter twice with Extra Attack, which should finish him off. I end my concentration on Silence, and then cast a Quickened Phantasmal Force against the Giant, to create the image of a compelling enemy, such as a Water Elemental or Marid (should be a natural foe of a Fire Giant). I'm proficient in Arcana, so I should have some knowledge of "the planes of existence, and the inhabitants of those planes" as per the PHB, to know what a Fire Giant's natural enemies should be.

The Phantasmal foe then occupies its attention, while I attack it along with the party until it dies.


Tucker's Kobolds:
I use Major Image to conjure an illusion of a something large and very threatening (such as a Beholder) over the party. It appears completely real, and the Kobolds won't want to be looking at it too closely (if you can see a Beholder, it can see you) to use Investigation checks. I tell the party to Ready actions to move when I move the image, and we float out of the tunnels without taking any attacks.

If that proves ineffective (or if the party refuse to listen), I use Warding Wind to impose disadvantage on all the ranged attacks coming our way (plus hedging out any gas attacks). I use Cure Wounds as my action each round and Combat Inspiration as my bonus action, providing +d8 to AC and healing as we run. With my 50ft speed and ability to ignore difficult terrain when I dash I can alternate using Cure Wounds and then catching up.

After we exit we can take a short rest (if the Major Image failed), using Song of of Rest to bolster hit dice healing.


Chain Devil:
With a +8 perception check I should be able to hear the Devil moving in the Darkness. If I fail that check, I'll use Detect Thoughts and locate him that way. I use a Bonus Action to provide Combat Inspiration to the Wizard, and then move into melee with the Devil.

I then cast a Quickened Fog Cloud over the Darkness to negate his advantage against us, and attack. For the rest of the fight I attack him, move out of the Darkness/Cloud (without provoking due to Mobile) and Combat Inspiration/Healing Word on any allies that need it, then move back into melee range. If the Devil makes any attacks against allies I get a Reaction attack from Sentinel, if he moves away I get an Opportunity Attack that sets his speed to 0, and if he attacks me I can Shield. At AC 23 and with Disadvantage on his attacks he can only hit me 8% of the time, while Combat Inspiration provides a shield-like buff for my allies (and ups my attacks to 3 per round).


T-Rex:
Phantasmal Force (for a smaller Dinosaur, say a Pleiosaurus) should occupy the beast's attention and most of its Bite attempts. I'll off-tank the Tail attacks with Mirror Image and Shield.


Flying Monkeys:
I take the Dash action to get within range of the Monkeys (ignoring the difficult terrain) and use a Quickened Web against the largest clump of them I can see. I position myself next to one or two more in range.

If the monkeys near me attempt to fly off, I can stop at least one with a Sentinel AoO. Any that try to grapple me have to contest with a +11 Acrobatics check due to Expertise.

Any monkeys that aren't webbed and try to grapple my allies will have to fly within range, make a Grapple check with their action, and then fly upwards (at half speed), so should only be able to clear 10-15ft on their turn. If that happens, on my turn I can attack any monkeys in melee range with me (preventing them from making OAs), then move underneath my airbourne ally and use Quickened Lightning Lure to pull the Monkey back to the ground.

Inigo has the advantage of extreme mobility (can move 100ft a round, 200ft on a Dash), and can ignore difficult terrain/opportunity attacks thanks to the Mobile feat. With high Dexterity, Stealth proficiency and Expertise in Perception he makes a capable scout, and with high Charisma and proficiency in most of the social skills he can also be a party face.

He's very hard to hit when he wants to be (AC 19 + Shield + Mirror Image) and has strong Controller abilities (Dissonant Whispers, Phantasmal Force, Major Image, Plant Growth, Web). He can cast these while tanking and attacking in melee thanks to Quicken Spell.

He can also shut down spellcasters hard with a combination of Sentinel+Silence+Subtle Spell, allowing him to cast spells but denying his enemies their own, or any option to get away.

He's a full caster and burns his 5th and 4th level spell slots to create Sorcery points, to fuel lots of Metamagic or provide more uses of powerful low level spells like Shield and Mirror Image.

Comments and critique welcome :)