Optimizing Odysseus

[coolAlias]

After responding to the Character Concepts (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?526598-Character-Concepts-You-Love-Optimization-Aside) thread that I'd really love to play an Int-based warrior type of character like Odysseus, I started thinking about how I might go about that with the goal of making the character first and foremost as much like the mythical Odysseus as possible, and secondarily to take that concept and make it not only viable, but awesome.

Ideas and criticisms welcome - please include thematic reasoning with any suggestions, as that is the main goal here. Builds should aim to be 'online' for the most part by 10th level, the earlier the better.

So, who was Odysseus? A cunning hero, preferring to use deceit or persuasion to win but both willing and able to go toe-to-toe with the best of them. He is brave, athletic, unrivaled in his skill with bow, deeply committed to his friends and countrymen, etc. etc. Basically he's supposed to be not only good at everything, but one of the best. Clearly this isn't going to fly in D&D or we'd be hogging the spotlight all the time, but I aim to get as close as possible.


STATS + RACE
27 point buy: Str 11, Dex 13, Con 13, Int 13, Wis 12, Cha 13

Standard human: Str 12, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 13, Cha 14

Thematic reason: Good at everything with focus on mental stats; also, Odysseus was human.

BACKGROUND
(slightly) Customized Noble
Skills: History (thinking of swapping for Religion - Odysseus was devout), Persuasion
Tools: Disguise Kit (rather than gaming set - Odysseus was skilled at crafting disguises)
Languages: Any one, or keep the gaming set and swap this for Disguise Kit
Standard Noble equipment and feature.

CLASS PROGRESSION
1st - Rogue 1, the D&D 'cunning warrior' archetype
+ Saves: Dex, Int - these seem quite appropriate
+ Skills: Athletics, Deception, Perception, Stealth, Thieves' Tools
I'd like to pick up Insight and Investigation someday, but these seem to fit better.
+ Expertise: Athletics, Deception - needs Athletics expertise to stay competitive with stronger warriors
+ Sneak Attack - this represents his skill at arms and tactical mind
2nd - Fighter 1
+ Medium armor and shield proficiency - Odysseus was most definitely proficient in these
Bumps our AC from 13 to 17 for a mere 60 gp (shield and chain shirt) and eventually 18 with a breastplate
+ Fighting style: Archery - I'd prefer Defense on this build, but thematically Archery is more appropriate

At this point, he already feels quite a bit like Odysseus. From here, I'd probably go to 3rd level in Rogue and take the Swashbuckler archetype so he can sneak attack even in one-on-one situations (he was, after all, willing to duel the legendary Hector!).

After that, I'd go to Fighter 3 and take the Battlemaster archetype, choosing Precision Attack and Riposte for sure (off-turn sneak attacks certainly feels extra cunning), and maybe Feinting Attack or something more thematic like Maneuvering Attack.

That puts him at 6th level with no ASIs yet, but a decent AC and pretty good damage potential, especially in melee when he can get in off-turn sneak attacks up to 4 times per short rest. Not only that, but he has lots of skills and even those he's not proficient in aren't terrible.

On level 7, go Rogue 4 and take Resilient (Wis) to bump Wis to 14 and to give some mechanical explanation for why he can consistently resist Calypso's offer, something probably no other mortal would have accomplished.

Level 8, Rogue 5 for Uncanny Dodge and better sneak attack. At this point, he's definitely viable even with only a 14 Dex, and he has solid action economy. Any time an enemy attacks him, he can either Uncanny Dodge on a hit or Riposte on a miss and get an extra sneak attack. On his own turn, he has the usual Rogue bonus action options and whatever else he might get from his archetype.

Three more levels will see us to Rogue 8 and finally get that Dex to 16 as well as 2 more expert skills, evasion, and 4d6 sneak attack. A straight rogue would have 6d6 sneak attack, but we're hoping to make up that damage difference via Riposte.

On level 12, we might consider Fighter 4 for another ASI, either for Cha (it IS Odysseus, after all) or perhaps something like Sharpshooter (not that amazing with only 1 attack, but thematic).

This would put him at Rogue 8/Fighter 4, which is probably the end of most games. A little attack bonus comparison, Odysseus vs. 'optimized' as in 'pump primary ASAP':

1st-3rd (14 vs 16 = 1 point difference)
4th-7th (14 vs 18 = 2 point difference, Precision Attack comes online at level 6)
8th-10th (14 vs 20 = 3 point difference)
11th (16 vs 20 = 2 point difference)
12th+ can find opportunities to bump Dex and close the gap

So, for most of his career, he will be at a slight disadvantage, but nothing too crazy. Levels 8 to 10 will be the most challenging for him, but judicious use of Precision Attack should help offset this somewhat even though that does dig in to his Riposte opportunities.

BEYOND 12th
If the game continues beyond 12th level, he could take some levels of bard for an extra skill, bardic inspiration (he was a leader of men, after all), Jack of All Trades so he really does become pretty good at everything, and maybe even a 3rd level for additional Expertise and go Lore Bard for 3 more skills.

Battlemaster 7 could also be thematic, gaining the ability to size up opponents. On the way, we'd get an extra attack (nice if we took Sharpshooter) and another ASI.

The other option is of course to continue pumping Rogue - four more levels gets an ASI on 10th, Reliable Talent on 11th, and another ASI on 12th, all of which are pretty juicy acquisitions, not to mention the improved sneak attack damage.

Looking this over, I think it could be a pretty fun and perfectly viable character. Any ideas on how to make a 'better' Odysseus?


Here I will note criticisms of the build as described and my responses to them. Thank you to everyone taking part in the thread - even points I do not agree with help me refine the concept in my head!

Q: Odysseus mainly used a spear
A: Yes, he did, but unfortunately a spear can not be used to make sneak attacks, so I've decided to sacrifice this bit of flavor for the flavor of being a Rogue, which I feel fits Odysseus very well. Besides, a shortsword is still a very flavorful weapon for him to use.

Q: Odysseus needs to have high Str, specifically to wield his legendary bow
A: Yes, yes he does. Unfortunately for the flavor, D&D 5e decided that bows use Dex for attack and damage, so we'll just have to say that his Dex represents his strength with the bow and take Expertise in Athletics to shore up his otherwise very much not-Greek-hero-level Athletics checks. If played under a DM that allowed Str-based bows (which should very much be the case anyway, imo), I would swap his Dex and Str in a heartbeat.

Q: All of his stats need to be super-high i.e. you can only play him with rolled stats
A: Taking a step back from the 'average' player character and thinking about the population as a whole, a 16 is already extremely exceptional and possibly 'best in the (small) kingdom', an 18 could be Hercules- or Einstein-level, and a 20 might be beyond what mortal humans can hope to achieve. Now, D&D players are certainly used to being 'best in the land' and progressing to 'godlike' (20), and many Greek heroes were arguably 'godlike,' but Odysseus was 'merely' the best on a small island kingdom, and tied for best among several kingdoms, with examples of heroes stronger or whatever than him once you include a large enough area, so I think starting with one 12 and the rest 14s is pretty good, and having at least one if not two stats at 16 by level 12 seems to be right on target to me.

[djreynolds]

I really like this.

[BurgerBeast]

I'm glad I found this because I'm looking at a similar build concept for a character that I started as a halfling rogue. I'm going to try to look at the build before I decide how best to use ASIs.

One thing I've been looking at is Ranger levels for Horde Breaker. If you have Extra Attack, Action Surge, and Horde Breaker, you're looking at 6 attacks in one round (I think), 7 if you go Crossbow Expert (which you probably won't because of theme), provided there is a second target within 5 feet for two of them.

This at he cost of probably 2d6 sneak attack. But it also gets you the second fighting style. It's even better if you can use the UA Ranger.

[JellyPooga]

I'm a little leery of giving Odysseus "only" 12 Strength. He's supposed to be the strongest man in his kingdom, as proven by the fact that only he is strong enough to string his bow. His wife counted on that fact to keep suitors away! Yes, you can argue a certain amount of skill involved or that it would be an Athletics check, but still...

[PeteNutButter]

I think a lot (or even all) of Odysseus's cunning is better explained by wisdom than int. It is certainly more of a street smarts than it is int. I could be wrong, but I don't recall him doing anything so int based in D&D. Everything his is him thinking quick on his feet.

Furthermore nothing in game has any bearing on his int stat. As a classic Mary Sue he is going to be hard to represent in game, so to do so properly I think you need to make some sacrifices. I'd argue to drop int to 10 and boost dex for optimization reasons. In game you might call yourself Odysseus, but in practice the other players will laugh at your grandiose character that struggles to hit enemies. When you try to be good at everything, you usually end up weak at everything, and the entire feel is lost.

You could also swap dex and str so he is the strongest in the land, as suggested above. He is pictured wearing heavy armor in battle in most cases, at least the heaviest available for the time. With archery style he should be pretty good at shooting even with a lower dex.

I like the idea of a mixed character that can excel at both melee and ranged.

[Corran]

I'm a little leery of giving Odysseus "only" 12 Strength. He's supposed to be the strongest man in his kingdom, as proven by the fact that only he is strong enough to string his bow. His wife counted on that fact to keep suitors away! Yes, you can argue a certain amount of skill involved or that it would be an Athletics check, but still...
I am not sure, but I think there was some sort of trick in pulling the string of the bow (could easily justify this in dnd terms with the bow being an attuned item that can be used only by the one attuned with it -so either a homebrew item, or an existing one if such an item exists; or even a warlock's pact weapon).

---------

Mentioning warlock, true strike could perhaps justify that famous shot (the arrow passing through the small circles on the ''hilt'' of the 10-12 axes before finding its target -that is when he returned to Ithaka), and disuise self (through the invocation) could play well with him disguising himself as a beggar, that only his old servant (Hariclea, I think she was called) recognized after starting to wash his feet (ie touch, see through the illusion) when she saw a very distinct scar on his foot. But that's maybe pushing it to much into warlock territory for little gain in theme -though it would work wonders if you convinced your DM to have Athena be the patron (not sure which of the published patron options would best represent that).

I'd agree with Pete about wisdom, as I interpret it the same way (besides, being wise was what Athena liked about Odysseus and why she helped him). Not to say that a good intelligence and charisma aren't important (as he was both smart and charismatic). That said, the conception of the idea of the trojan horse, is probably most attributed to intelligence (or so I think), so I could see the case for all mental stats to be high (equally high?). Standard human does look like the perfect choice for this.

Hmmm, I'll try to come back with better suggestions. Nice concept btw!

[coolAlias]

Thanks everyone for your replies so far!

@BurgerBeast Ranger would also be good - it gets you all the same armor and weapon proficiencies plus an extra skill to boot, as well as some nice abilities. I was thinking of going Hunter and taking Giant Slayer, as that is even better than Riposte as it practically guarantees an off-turn sneak attack when you fight Large+ enemies.

@JellyPooga Totally agree, but something had to give and I wanted Intelligence to be high since that is what is used to represent the ability to come up with cunning plans such as the Trojan Horse, or to think up and craft a good disguise (Int [Disguise Kit]). I liked @Corran's suggestion of a bow requiring attunement or perhaps simply one that has a trick to stringing it, like a compound bow in a medieval world.

I tried to stay away from spell-casting classes even when their abilities would be thematic, simply because I don't like the idea of him casting spells. Refluffing as making a prayer to the gods etc. could work for that, though, so it's not completely off the table.

I left Wisdom at 13 on 1st for optimization reasons - i.e. in order to take Resilient (Wis) and have the +1 Wis be meaningful. Too bad he probably has to wait until 7th level, but I think that's okay. A total of 14 may seem low, but that's still a pretty wise person, more than adequate to become a full on priest of a deity. I think Odysseus was considered the wisest of the heroic warriors at that time, rather than the wisest of anybody in existence.

@PeteNutButter With bounded accuracy, even a 14 as a main stat should be viable up to at least 7th or 8th level; after that he may struggle a bit until he can catch back up. I had a break-down of his 'disability' in the spoiler.

For armor, the heaviest at the time was probably a breastplate, which to me is a very nice image. It only weighs 20 lbs according to the PHB and is the heaviest armor that doesn't impose disadvantage on stealth checks.

As for Int, thinking quickly on your feet is what Int is all about. Wisdom is useful for noticing that the Cyclops has one eye (not really, but you get the idea) or discovering what makes him tick, whereas Int is coming up with a plan to exploit those facts. Despite Int being a little less mechanically favored in 5e, I can't justify lowering it for this concept.

[Ruebin Rybnik]

Seems like the hardest part is that you're PC concept is very MAD. Depending on your DM why not a re-curve/composite longbow that requires strength to use. Making the bow strength based will follow the theme of only he could string it, and let you lower dex and still be really good with the bow, and be able to wear heavy armor.

[coolAlias]

Seems like the hardest part is that you're PC concept is very MAD. Depending on your DM why not a re-curve/composite longbow that requires strength to use. Making the bow strength based will follow the theme of only he could string it, and let you lower dex and still be really good with the bow, and be able to wear heavy armor.
With DM buy-in, absolutely. But without a DM, I'm left to the standard rules for my theory-crafting, otherwise I'd suggest 30 point-buy and have 14s across the board right from the get-go, or 32 and have a 16, too. ;)

Still, that is a great idea. Odysseus is never really noted as being exceptionally nimble, but that's the stat D&D chose to use for ranged attacks. :/

[Specter]

The 'intelligent' rogue archetype would be Mastermind, and it would suit you well with both bow and sword, whereas Swash only helps melee.

I also wouldn't boost CHA further if I expertised the CHA skills.

[coolAlias]

The 'intelligent' rogue archetype would be Mastermind, and it would suit you well with both bow and sword, whereas Swash only helps melee.

I also wouldn't boost CHA further if I expertised the CHA skills.
Oh yeah, that's a nice archetype! I was working off the PHB and memory, so I didn't consider that one. Very flavorful and the extra tool proficiencies and languages are a very welcome addition - that'd let me swap out my starting language for proficiency in Vehicles (Water) and the gaming set for something more suitable like Navigator's Tools. He's king of a freaking island, after all!

[Thrudd]

Odysseus needs to be a lot stronger. His primary weapon is a spear (like everyone in his culture), and he can take on several normal men at once and survive. There is nothing in Homer that indicates his bow required any clever trick, it requires uncommon physical strength.
Presumably the other Iliad heroes could have done it, too, but definitely nobody else.
He probably should have stats more like 18 18 16 16 14 14.

[coolAlias]

Odysseus needs to be a lot stronger. His primary weapon is a spear (like everyone in his culture), and he can take on several normal men at once and survive. There is nothing in Homer that indicates his bow required any clever trick, it requires uncommon physical strength.
Presumably the other Iliad heroes could have done it, too, but definitely nobody else.
He probably should have stats more like 18 18 16 16 14 14.
I agree, but how do you propose achieving those stats in a reproducible fashion?

I do picture him using a spear on an actual battlefield, but for everyday purposes (such as adventuring), I have no problem with him using his backup weapon, the trusty shortsword.

Not only that, but D&D 5e doesn't support Str-based bows by default, and while a Str-based rogue is totally viable (finesse weapons can use Str, after all, and still sneak attack), I didn't feel like it was a good choice given the limitations imposed by theory-crafting vs. getting really lucky when rolling up a character.

[Thrudd]

I agree, but how do you propose achieving those stats in a reproducible fashion?

I do picture him using a spear on an actual battlefield, but for everyday purposes (such as adventuring), I have no problem with him using his backup weapon, the trusty shortsword.

Not only that, but D&D 5e doesn't support Str-based bows by default, and while a Str-based rogue is totally viable (finesse weapons can use Str, after all, and still sneak attack), I didn't feel like it was a good choice given the limitations imposed by theory-crafting vs. getting really lucky when rolling up a character.

He is a character who's player got really lucky on rolls, like all the myth heroes. He's one of a kind, not reproducible. One should not expect to get a character like that.
By the time of the epics, he's definitely higher level, as well, so some of those stats would include an ASI or two.

For the bow, it would have a special property of requiring a min strength score to string it, probably does extra damage, though you could still use dex to actually wield it. Sure, he can use a sword, too. He can use anything, but spears should definitely be favored. It wasn't a sword Telemachus got out of the armory for him, but a kit of spears, shield and helmet.

[PeteNutButter]

He is a character who's player got really lucky on rolls, like all the myth heroes. He's one of a kind, not reproducible. One should not expect to get a character like that.
By the time of the epics, he's definitely higher level, as well, so some of those stats would include an ASI or two.


That is exactly why I suggested sacrificing some things that only add flavor.

Odysseus misses again.
The Bard says, "You can't hit for crap? Why are you level six with a 14 as your highest stat?"
"Because I'm Odysseus," Lifting up his character sheet, "Look I have a 14 int."

Seriously the only way someone ever even pays attention to that Int stat is if you show them your sheet. You'd FEEL a lot more like the character of legend, if you did the stuff of legends and had a 10 int. Not only that, but it'd be more fun to actually play as no one likes missing. Compare that to this:

Bard: "Wow! Nice, you managed to slay that cyclops with a nasty hit, and you just barely managed to hit. What did you say your character was?"
"I'm Odysseus."
"That's badass, mind if I see your sheet? ...wait a minute, Odysseus has higher than a 10 int." ..."You're dead me."
:smallbiggrin:

[coolAlias]

@PeteNutButter I counter that with a question: what is the AC of the Cyclops? :P I'm away from book, but iirc it's something like 11, maybe 13. So even with my meager +5 to +7 to hit, I still hit more often than not even before accounting for things like attacking with advantage (due to hiding, optional flanking rule, etc.) or using Precision Attack when needed.

Will he be the most feared warrior in the land? No. And Odysseus wasn't. He was respected as a great warrior, for sure, but it was arguably his deeds of cunning that won him renown, and that's the flavor I'm going for rather than super-optimized fighter.

Besides, I don't think he will be nearly as crippled as you imply, thanks to bounded accuracy. A +2 from main stat should be plenty for most of his career, and when facing down high-AC targets, he'll have to use his brains to win rather than his brawn, which is exactly the kind of scenario that would be intriguing to play. It is a shame, though, that there doesn't seem to be anything within D&D 5e that mechanically supports that concept, as the character's Int won't really help in that scenario so much as the player's. This is why so many feel it is okay to dump Int, but not this hero! ;)

@Thrudd Valid points. I guess that is where I deviate from the legend in order to make it work within the confines of the D&D 5e ruleset. Either that, or I reconsider his class choices and remove Rogue in favor of something else, but I really feel like Rogue captures a lot of the Odysseus flavor. I could still use a spear as a Rogue, but then I would be severely disadvantaged in the damage department since it is not a finesse weapon, and I don't imagine this character as one to always hang back and take pot shots with his bow.

[Thrudd]

That is exactly why I suggested sacrificing some things that only add flavor.

Odysseus misses again.
The Bard says, "You can't hit for crap? Why are you level six with a 14 as your highest stat?"
"Because I'm Odysseus," Lifting up his character sheet, "Look I have a 14 int."

Seriously the only way someone ever even pays attention to that Int stat is if you show them your sheet. You'd FEEL a lot more like the character of legend, if you did the stuff of legends and had a 10 int. Not only that, but it'd be more fun to actually play as no one likes missing. Compare that to this:

Bard: "Wow! Nice, you managed to slay that cyclops with a nasty hit, and you just barely managed to hit. What did you say your character was?"
"I'm Odysseus."
"That's badass, mind if I see your sheet? ...wait a minute, Odysseus has higher than a 10 int." ..."You're dead me."
:smallbiggrin:

Exactly. To be honest, Greek heroes all need at a minimum to be exceptional physical specimens. That is what made them heroes to the Greeks. That Odysseus was also a bit more clever than the rest of the heroes is his special feature. But in no way does his cleverness make up for any kind of lack in the athletics and combat department. Only Akhilleus is definitely more skilled in combat and Telamonian Aios would definately be physically stronger. Otherwise, I think there's nothing to indicate he's less strong or skilled in combat than the rest of the Iliad heroes.

[coolAlias]

Exactly. To be honest, Greek heroes all need at a minimum to be exceptional physical specimens. That is what made them heroes to the Greeks. That Odysseus was also a bit more clever than the rest of the heroes is his special feature. But in no way does his cleverness make up for any kind of lack in the athletics and combat department. Only Akhilleus is definitely more skilled in combat and Telamonian Aios would definately be physically stronger. Otherwise, I think there's nothing to indicate he's less strong or skilled in combat than the rest of the Iliad heroes.
And, I would argue, he isn't. It's just a D&D-ism that every hero must have at least a 16 in their primary stat, usually at 1st level, but a 14 is already quite the specimen of a human, at least.

If I had DM buy-in for a Str-based bow (as in use Str for to hit and damage [greater force = greater penetration and flatter trajectory]), then I'd happily swap his Str and Dex scores and build him as a Str-based Rogue. He'd still have a 12 Dex which is perfectly respectable, and it doesn't in any way hamper his ability to wield finesse weapons for sneak attack.

But, due to RAW D&D requiring Dex for bows and making Dex equally viable for melee, I feel that Dex over Str is the correct decision, despite the fact that Odysseus was indeed supposed to be exceptionally strong. It's one of several things that I've had to sacrifice to make the build work while still keeping as much of the original flavor as I can.

[PeteNutButter]

@PeteNutButter I counter that with a question: what is the AC of the Cyclops? :P I'm away from book, but iirc it's something like 11, maybe 13. So even with my meager +5 to +7 to hit, I still hit more often than not even before accounting for things like attacking with advantage (due to hiding, optional flanking rule, etc.) or using Precision Attack when needed.

Just used cyclops as a flavorful example. It'll be much more punishing in fights with things like dragons.


And, I would argue, he isn't. It's just a D&D-ism that every hero must have at least a 16 in their primary stat, usually at 1st level, but a 14 is already quite the specimen of a human, at least.

If I had DM buy-in for a Str-based bow (as in use Str for to hit and damage [greater force = greater penetration and flatter trajectory]), then I'd happily swap his Str and Dex scores and build him as a Str-based Rogue. He'd still have a 12 Dex which is perfectly respectable, and it doesn't in any way hamper his ability to wield finesse weapons for sneak attack.

But, due to RAW D&D requiring Dex for bows and making Dex equally viable for melee, I feel that Dex over Str is the correct decision, despite the fact that Odysseus was indeed supposed to be exceptionally strong. It's one of several things that I've had to sacrifice to make the build work while still keeping as much of the original flavor as I can.

You are acknowledging that the game provides no benefit for your int, and the restrictions of point buy, but you are not willing to sacrifice the "flavorful" for the mechanical. It is a constraint of the system that a 16 in core attack stat is very much desired.

Nothing stops you from RPing the 10 int version just like you would the 14 int.

[coolAlias]

You are acknowledging that the game provides no benefit for your int, and the restrictions of point buy, but you are not willing to sacrifice the "flavorful" for the mechanical.
Indeed, the bolded part is the basic premise of the post as well as the post that spawned it, though I did already sacrifice some flavor (his Str/spear-wielding) on the altar of mechanics (Dex bows and finesse weapons for sneak attack).

I could drop his Int to 12 and get Str to 14, but again, the entire initial premise of the build was that I would love to play an Int-based melee warrior, an archetype that is specifically not supported mechanically in D&D 5e but has a basis in cultural history (Odysseus), even though he, like all Greek heroes, is also an impeccable specimen of physicality.

I'm choosing to emphasize the cunning aspect rather than the godlike physique, a character concept that is certainly not optimal within the constraints of D&D, and I am trying to make that concept as optimal as I can given those constraints.

See what I'm saying? I'm not making an exact replica of legendary Odysseus, but trying to get close to it within a certain context.

[PeteNutButter]

Indeed, the bolded part is the basic premise of the post as well as the post that spawned it, though I did already sacrifice some flavor (his Str/spear-wielding) on the altar of mechanics (Dex bows and finesse weapons for sneak attack).

I could drop his Int to 12 and get Str to 14, but again, the entire initial premise of the build was that I would love to play an Int-based melee warrior, an archetype that is specifically not supported mechanically in D&D 5e but has a basis in cultural history (Odysseus), even though he, like all Greek heroes, is also an impeccable specimen of physicality.

I'm choosing to emphasize the cunning aspect rather than the godlike physique, a character concept that is certainly not optimal within the constraints of D&D, and I am trying to make that concept as optimal as I can given those constraints.

See what I'm saying? I'm not making an exact replica of legendary Odysseus, but trying to get close to it within a certain context.

I actually built a homebrew class based on the herioc greek characters as they don't fit into a lot of classes easily.

[coolAlias]

I actually built a homebrew class based on the herioc greek characters as they don't fit into a lot of classes easily.
I'd be interested in seeing what you made, if you're of a mind to share. :D

[Thrudd]

And, I would argue, he isn't. It's just a D&D-ism that every hero must have at least a 16 in their primary stat, usually at 1st level, but a 14 is already quite the specimen of a human, at least.

If I had DM buy-in for a Str-based bow (as in use Str for to hit and damage [greater force = greater penetration and flatter trajectory]), then I'd happily swap his Str and Dex scores and build him as a Str-based Rogue. He'd still have a 12 Dex which is perfectly respectable, and it doesn't in any way hamper his ability to wield finesse weapons for sneak attack.

But, due to RAW D&D requiring Dex for bows and making Dex equally viable for melee, I feel that Dex over Str is the correct decision, despite the fact that Odysseus was indeed supposed to be exceptionally strong. It's one of several things that I've had to sacrifice to make the build work while still keeping as much of the original flavor as I can.

It is true, the actual numbers are arbitrary and depend on how you define them. If you say that 12 or 14 is an exceptional strength, then this means that those must be uncommon scores in your world, to the extent that nobody else is as strong as him (other than the rare hero of equal stature). If that's how it works out, and anything over 10 is unheard of except in mythical heroes, that's fine. He could get away with having Dex lower than his Str, since the bow is not his primary weapon (although he does hit and kill with it every time he tries in the suitor battle).

Odysseus would have to be a fighter, at the very least, probably a champion for the increased crit range. A multiclass dip with rogue for a sneak attack and some expertise is a possibility. He does sneak into an enemy camp at night with Diomedes and murders a bunch of people in their sleep, at one point. Of course, this doesn't mean he has to be a rogue, just have a decent Dex and the cover of darkness. His clever battle plans (like the one mentioned above) and insight are a thing that is really on the player of D&D rather than something in the mechanics, though having a higher wisdom could help portray that with insight checks.

So I'd say the best way to portray him, and all those guys, is to have all physical stats in the "heroic" range that would be unheard of for most people, with some heroes outshining others slightly in different areas. Odysseus outshines the others in cleverness, which would be wisdom, intelligence, or both.

I think the main takeaway for me is that D&D is not built to portray Greek mythical heroes like this, at least not until you are in the upper levels. If you were to run a "Greek heroes" D&D game, I'd give everyone an array that represented their heroic stature, or a super high point buy. Also allow only humans, and only classes with no magic. Or just start them out at level 15 or something.

[coolAlias]

@Thrudd - I just added a 'Feedback' section at the bottom of the main post which includes some relevant context for my take on stats:
-----------------------------
Q: All of his stats need to be super-high i.e. you can only play him with rolled stats
A: Taking a step back from the 'average' player character and thinking about the population as a whole, a 16 is already extremely exceptional and possibly 'best in the (small) kingdom', an 18 could be Hercules- or Einstein-level, and a 20 might be beyond what mortal humans can hope to achieve.

Now, D&D players are certainly used to being 'best in the land' and progressing to 'godlike' (20), and many Greek heroes were arguably 'godlike,' but Odysseus was 'merely' the best on a small island kingdom, and tied for best among several kingdoms, with examples of heroes stronger or whatever than him once you include a large enough area, so I think starting with one 12 and the rest 14s is pretty good, and having at least one if not two stats at 16 by level 12 seems to be right on target to me.
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While grabbing that amazing 20 in your primary is something most players go for, I don't think many of them really consider the repercussions of "Whoa, now I'm literally the strongest/smartest/wisest person probably ever in the whole world!" Since nearly every PC ends up with a 20, it stops feeling truly special, and it feels necessary because DMs typically ratchet up the challenge to match the characters' abilities because hey, otherwise it wouldn't be challenging and the game would likely lose some measure of fun.

Also, DMs tend to give their NPCs ridiculously high stats as well, again in order to provide a challenge or to maintain some level of relative verisimilitude ("okay, yeah, you've got an 18 Str, but so do all of the notable warriors you've encountered because you really aren't the strongest in all the land at 4th level...").

So yes, in a standard D&D 5e game, you're probably right in that he will feel sorely underwhelming when comparing stats directly with other PCs, but even so, I contend that he will remain a valuable member of the party even in combat against tough opponents.

His worst case will be between 8th and 10th level when his attack bonus is +5/+6 instead of +8/+9. Going up against opponents with AC higher than around 16 will be tougher for him than for his allies, and he'll have to work harder to ensure he always has advantage. Is it more challenging? Yes. Is it crippling? I don't believe so.

As for Odysseus having to be mainly a fighter, I'm not so sure. A rogue is a perfectly viable front-line combatant in 5e, especially if he can use better armor and a shield to boost his AC. He doesn't get as many attacks, but I always imagine Odysseus as making carefully calculated strikes rather than a flurry of blows.

[JellyPooga]

The thing is...as much as Odysseus was reknowned for his smarts in battle and off the battlefield, his "cunning plans" were, let's face it, not exactly genius level thinking.

"Let's leave a prezzie and hide some guys in it in the hope that the Trojans will bite" is...well, relying on the Trojans to be duller than that particular piece of tomfoolery.

"I'll poke him in the eye, we'll cling to the sheeps bellies and hope like hell he doesn't notice us" isn't much better, to be fair.

None of his other plans were much better.

[coolAlias]

The thing is...as much as Odysseus was reknowned for his smarts in battle and off the battlefield, his "cunning plans" were, let's face it, not exactly genius level thinking.

"Let's leave a prezzie and hide some guys in it in the hope that the Trojans will bite" is...well, relying on the Trojans to be duller than that particular piece of tomfoolery.

"I'll poke him in the eye, we'll cling to the sheeps bellies and hope like hell he doesn't notice us" isn't much better, to be fair.

None of his other plans were much better.
You've got me there, but he sounds an awful lot like a PC. ;)

Besides, he's not supposed to be a genius, but 'just' extremely clever. It also helps that he often has one or more gods helping him out, but that's not really something we can plan for in a build.

[Unoriginal]

His cunning is mostly that he's good at deceiving others.

[coolAlias]

His cunning is mostly that he's good at deceiving others.
That's a good point. Good at both deceiving and persuading (Cha), meaning he must be able to read other people pretty well (Wis).

5e really hates Int.

[Specter]

I agree that Odysseus doesn't need to be mainly a fighter.

Using Battlemaster and Mastermind, I see two good ways to do this:
- Mastermind 9/Battlemaster 3: Mainly rogue, with the level 9 ability for good flavor.
- Mastermind 6/Battlemaster 6: A balanced mix, with 3 ASI and Extra Attack.

[coolAlias]

I agree that Odysseus doesn't need to be mainly a fighter.

Using Battlemaster and Mastermind, I see two good ways to do this:
- Mastermind 9/Battlemaster 3: Mainly rogue, with the level 9 ability for good flavor.
- Mastermind 6/Battlemaster 6: A balanced mix, with 3 ASI and Extra Attack.
I'm liking the idea of Mastermind 9/Battlemaster 3, but only 2 ASI! :(

If the game gets to 14th, though, he could snag an additional ASI each at Rogue 10 and Fighter 4 - a very welcome, if late, boost.

[Unoriginal]

That's a good point. Good at both deceiving and persuading (Cha), meaning he must be able to read other people pretty well (Wis).

5e really hates Int.

5e doesn't hate INT.

Also, no, Odysseus has bad WIS. It would be *better* if he was about to read others pretty well, but actually he's kind of terrible at that.

He has a decent Investigation, though

[PeteNutButter]

I'd be interested in seeing what you made, if you're of a mind to share. :D

I think I had another more fleshed out version, but this is what I have for it. It's been slightly play tested, but might be a tad weak.

http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/BkTVdlJxe

[coolAlias]

5e doesn't hate INT.

Also, no, Odysseus has bad WIS. It would be *better* if he was about to read others pretty well, but actually he's kind of terrible at that.

He has a decent Investigation, though
He's considered very wise by everyone that mentions him, and his ability to resist temptation (specifically Calypso's offer of godhood) is pretty dang impressive.

Do you have any specific examples in mind where he fails terribly at reading someone's state of mind? My impression was that he wasn't bad at it, but it's been a long time since I've read the Odyssey and the Iliad.

I agree he should probably have proficiency in Investigation, but I ran out of skills so I let his Int do the work on that one. I had originally planned on taking Observant - that would have given him a good chance to piece things together passively - but had to cut that as well.


I think I had another more fleshed out version, but this is what I have for it. It's been slightly play tested, but might be a tad weak.

http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/BkTVdlJxe
Thanks for the link! I'm not sure how I feel about the Awesome Blow ability, but the rest of it is really interesting.

I'm going to see what I can come up with for the Str-based spear-wielding version of Odysseus - clearly this new version won't have any (or very few) levels in Rogue since he wouldn't benefit at all from sneak attack when engaging in melee. I'm thinking maybe Champion Fighter with maybe a single level in Trickery Cleric and/or 3 levels in Bard: College of Lore for some spells, extra skills and Cutting Words. Warlock 2 (Archfey i.e. Athena/the old gods) could also be quite thematic, with the Fey Presence ability to frighten nearby enemies and Mask of Many Faces for at-will disguise self and Beguiling Influence if I'm tight on skills.

EDIT: Nah, after messing around with the above for a bit, I find I'm way more excited about playing the Mastermind/Battlemaster version.

[Unoriginal]

He's considered very wise by everyone that mentions him, and his ability to resist temptation (specifically Calypso's offer of godhood) is pretty dang impressive.

Do you have any specific examples in mind where he fails terribly at reading someone's state of mind? My impression was that he wasn't bad at it, but it's been a long time since I've read the Odyssey and the Iliad.

I agree he should probably have proficiency in Investigation, but I ran out of skills so I let his Int do the work on that one. I had originally planned on taking Observant - that would have given him a good chance to piece things together passively - but had to cut that as well.

Wisdom used to mean different things, back then. That's why the INT-based magic user is called Wizard. But in D&D terms, Odysseus is pretty lousy in WIS.

Also, no, resisting that kind of temptation doesn't require WIS, just roleplay ("I really love my wife and my country and want to go back"). It's not like Calypso tried to mind-control him.

On the other hand, when it comes to actual mind-affecting powers, like the Sirens' song or (arguably) Circe's tricks, it's pretty clear he falls for it like any regular average joe unless helped by a god.

But if you want exemples of Odysseus failing to read people, sure. In the Odyssey only:

-Failing to realize the Cicones had called for help from their in-land people and were readying a counter-attack

-Failing to realize that the Lotus Eaters were offering ultra-drugs to his sailors

-Failing to realize that Polyphemus wasn't going to follow the rules of hospitality until the Cyclops pointed it out

-Failing to realize his sailors were pissed off at him enough to steal from him, resulting in the opening of Aeolus's Pouch.

So, yeah, not the best track record.

[coolAlias]

Wisdom used to mean different things, back then. That's why the INT-based magic user is called Wizard. But in D&D terms, Odysseus is pretty lousy in WIS.

Also, no, resisting that kind of temptation doesn't require WIS, just roleplay ("I really love my wife and my country and want to go back"). It's not like Calypso tried to mind-control him.

On the other hand, when it comes to actual mind-affecting powers, like the Sirens' song or (arguably) Circe's tricks, it's pretty clear he falls for it like any regular average joe unless helped by a god.

But if you want exemples of Odysseus failing to read people, sure. In the Odyssey only:

-Failing to realize the Cicones had called for help from their in-land people and were readying a counter-attack

-Failing to realize that the Lotus Eaters were offering ultra-drugs to his sailors

-Failing to realize that Polyphemus wasn't going to follow the rules of hospitality until the Cyclops pointed it out

-Failing to realize his sailors were pissed off at him enough to steal from him, resulting in the opening of Aeolus's Pouch.

So, yeah, not the best track record.
Good points, especially re: his Wis.

In the case of the Lotus Eaters, he had sent his sailors to investigate who lived in those lands and didn't interact with them personally until he went to save his men.

For the Cicones, I'm pretty sure he was of a mind to leave immediately after they sacked the first city, but his men basically ignored his advice.

But overall, yes, I agree, especially since I just started re-reading the Odyssey last night up to the end of his retelling of the Cyclops. You guys were right - Odysseus is definitely a straight Str-based Champion.

Here's a quick revised build for him:

Human, Custom background w/Sailor feature and Noble equipment
14/14/14/13/12/14
Champion 8, Archery fighting style
Longbow, Spear, Shield, Chain Mail
Skills: Athletics, Deception, Investigation, Survival?
Tools: Carpenter's Tools (he built his own ship...), Vehicles (Water)
Languages: Common + any 2
4th - Sharpshooter
6th - +2 Str
8th - Observant (bump Int to 14)

Main problem with this build is he has terrible action economy - no real bonus action or reaction options other than Second Wind and regular attacks of opportunity.

[Specter]

I'm liking the idea of Mastermind 9/Battlemaster 3, but only 2 ASI! :(

If the game gets to 14th, though, he could snag an additional ASI each at Rogue 10 and Fighter 4 - a very welcome, if late, boost.

I wouldn't worry too much, your build doesn't seem feat-starved. Just boost your attack stat and go to town.

About STR, remember that with 14 STR with expertise in Athletics is enough to grapple snakes and trip giants, so I'd say it's good enough.