Nightblade - Multiclasse 'dipping'? Other suggestions?

[statistx]

Didn't want to reply in the Nightblade guide, cause I'm no Necromancer and the thread is from 2015.

First a summary, then some questions:

So I am currently playing a Nightblade Tiefling at level 4, with the option to switch out old leveling decisions or change my complete character, since we finished a campaign and the DM allowed us to switch around stuff.

I prefer to be a social focussed RP character and don't need the most OP build, but i also don't want to be useless, but in the end flavor wins over usefulness.
Currently I play the character as a melee fighting focussed sneaker with some magically enhanced facettes.
Also i prefer to not dabble too much into magic, since those systems are often too complicated to me.

I chose the Path of the Eternal Night and convinced my DM to let me houserule-waste my level 3 feat pick to nullify the corruption damage to allies, which means i can just pop it while standing alongside my allies and dish out while its active.
Of course I also took Weapon Finesse and chose my first Nightblade Art as Combat Art and took Exotic Proficiency (Curved elven blade), cause you can use it with weapon finesse and it's a 2-handed weapon with slashing damage (so unlike the spiked chain) which means I can combine it with my 2nd level spell 'Brow Gasher'.

Overall I am happy with my choices so far. I stealthily cleared out some goblin scouts all by myself through sneaking and getting good rolls and having extra damage from Shadow Stabber (see below) and at some points i also had funny critical successes with stealth that established that I can sneak anywhere and anytime I want to my party ingame.

Question 1:
Is it worth it to multiclass dip into Rogue for the Sneak Damage and combine that?
I also love the idea of a bloodrager, but my assumption is that taking 1 level for the rage is not enough to really have potential.

Question 2:
For the character generation feat i took Shadow Stabber (Tiefling) (Benefit You gain a +2 trait bonus on melee weapon damage rolls made against foes that cannot see you.) but i don't know exactly how to use it properly. I think the Nightblade should have some neat tricks to blind opponents. I mean for example I know about the Brow Gasher spell and that it blinds when it reaches -5.

Question 3:
Any other ideas? My character is pretty snarky and moody, chaotic neutral, mostly in it for entertainment and money and sneaks, sleigh of hands and bluffs all over the place. Basically what you'd expect from a roguish tiefling with some succubus or impish like ancestry.

[eldskald]

1: Best dip is probably 3 levels in unchained rogue for dex to damage. Don't go into bloodrager, rage won't let you sneak, cast spells and stuff that require concentrating overall. Unfortunately, you already took Weapon Finesse and the first level rogue Weapon Finesse is wasted. Unchained rogue is the only way to get dex to damage with an elven curved blade, since the other feats only work for one handed or light weapons and require your other hand to be empty. Maybe you can retrain your first weapon finesse into something else later.

2: Generally, there is no efficient way to hide in combat and prevent people from seeing you. That's why sneak attack and everything that needs you to be unnoticed are traps. Tiefling has Darkness as a spell-like ability, and if your enemy can't see in the dark (most races and monsters can), you can hide in there. Other that, at higher levels, you can hide in plain sight, move somewhere else and attack. That won't allow you to do full attacks, though.

3: Look for dimensional dervish feat tree. It's pretty good with characters like this. Also, if you decide to dip unchained rogue, talk to your DM to instead let you dip into unchained ninja. The thing is, there is no paizo unchained ninja. But since unchained rogue don't really lose or change any feature, you can just give all the bonuses he got to the ninja. Since you are already accepting third party material, Everyman Gaming has a version of the unchained ninja that's almost that which I described. Dipping 3 levels into unchained ninja gives you a ninja trick, a ki pool and doesn't waste evasion like rogue. With the ki pool, you will be able to get another attack at full BAB and you can get vanish trick as ninja trick. You can also qualify for Extra Ninja Trick, which are arguably better than Rogue Talents.

[statistx]

1: Best dip is probably 3 levels in unchained rogue for dex to damage. Don't go into bloodrager, rage won't let you sneak, cast spells and stuff that require concentrating overall. Unfortunately, you already took Weapon Finesse and the first level rogue Weapon Finesse is wasted. Unchained rogue is the only way to get dex to damage with an elven curved blade, since the other feats only work for one handed or light weapons and require your other hand to be empty. Maybe you can retrain your first weapon finesse into something else later.

2: Generally, there is no efficient way to hide in combat and prevent people from seeing you. That's why sneak attack and everything that needs you to be unnoticed are traps. Tiefling has Darkness as a spell-like ability, and if your enemy can't see in the dark (most races and monsters can), you can hide in there. Other that, at higher levels, you can hide in plain sight, move somewhere else and attack. That won't allow you to do full attacks, though.

3: Look for dimensional dervish feat tree. It's pretty good with characters like this. Also, if you decide to dip unchained rogue, talk to your DM to instead let you dip into unchained ninja. The thing is, there is no paizo unchained ninja. But since unchained rogue don't really lose or change any feature, you can just give all the bonuses he got to the ninja. Since you are already accepting third party material, Everyman Gaming has a version of the unchained ninja that's almost that which I described. Dipping 3 levels into unchained ninja gives you a ninja trick, a ki pool and doesn't waste evasion like rogue. With the ki pool, you will be able to get another attack at full BAB and you can get vanish trick as ninja trick. You can also qualify for Extra Ninja Trick, which are arguably better than Rogue Talents.

Thanks for replying. Fortunately I can still switch around the weapon finesse, since our DM allowed us to switch around our previous choices now that the campaign is over and we move to another one . (Basically he said we can either make a new character or keep the one and adjust it)
Definitely gonna look into your other suggestions.

Oh and what i forgot to say is, that we already have Dex Damage on Weapon Finesse, since our DM thought "Meh, it's unfair for dex builds if they waste a feat and then don't get a damage benefit" so he houseruled that with weapon finesse you not only get the bonus to your attack roll but also to damage.
We have a pretty chill session, since everyone except me is new to PnP.

[eldskald]

Oh and what i forgot to say is, that we already have Dex Damage on Weapon Finesse, since our DM thought "Meh, it's unfair for dex builds if they waste a feat and then don't get a damage benefit" so he houseruled that with weapon finesse you not only get the bonus to your attack roll but also to damage.
We have a pretty chill session, since everyone except me is new to PnP.

In this case, I see no reason to dip 3 levels into unchained rogue/ninja. The whole point was to get dex to damage after all. Dipping will set you back on your caster levels and shadow shift, and I guess shadow shift why you took that class in the first place, so from an optimization point of view, you probably shouldn't dip. Another option is to dip 2 levels into ninja to get the ki pool and the trick. You will trade spells and mobility by more martial prowess. About Extra Ninja Tricks, I just saw that this feat doesn't exists! Well, since rogues, investigators and slayers all get extra talents, I don't see harm in giving ninjas their extra tricks too. You will also qualify for Accomplished Sneak Attacker if you have the feats to spare.

[ngilop]

1) You really have no reason to dip. You could go rogue to get KI powers or Weapon master fighter 3 to get weapon guard and weapon training with your chosen weapon... or just stay nightblade through all your levels. It is a very solid class.

2) There is blinding powder that is not that expensive, vanish, invisibility, and greater invisibility on your spell list to grant you invisibility. Blend is there to make your hide checks AWESOME, obscuring mist, and a host of other spells which make you not visible to the target... Brow Gnasher s hideously BAD.. nothing is going to last 5 rounds in combat with you to get to the blinded condition. Glitterdust is a better way to go that brow gnasher in 10 out of 10 instances.

3) I do not have much to say here that is not already given out as advice by eldskald.

[upho]

First a disclaimer: while I know how the nightblade's features work separately as they largely consist of mechanics also found elsewhere, I'm not very familiar with how the class combines those mechanics and I have no experience playing it.


Is it worth it to multiclass dip into Rogue for the Sneak Damage and combine that?Well, generally speaking, for SA to actually be effective, you typically need a combo of abilities which allows you to reliably apply the extra damage on a majority of your attacks, including when you take actions which allows multiple attacks (such as a full attack). Aside from having greater invisibility on the spell list, the nightblade has a few key components for building a combo available in most combat rounds, such as Hide in Plain Sight and Shadow Shift. But in order to complete this combo, it seems you'd also need to be of a pretty high level and to have made a big investment in related stuff (such as the Dimensional Agility, Dimensional Assault and Dimensional Dervish feats, the Shifting Focus nightblade art etc). So taking a dip into rogue will mostly delay that ability to even higher levels, while the small amount of SA damage you gain isn't likely to provide much mechanical benefit in practice. (That is unless your game allows content from the (highly recommended) Path of War (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/) series, which opens up quite a few other possibilities.)

Instead, like eldskald wrote in his post, a more fitting dip would be the unchained rogue (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/unchained-classes/rogue-unchained/) giving you Dex to melee damage. But I still wouldn't actually recommend that unless it's the only option available for Dex to damage aside from an Agile Weapon. Instead, I'd first ask your GM for permission to get the Deadly Agility (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/feats/#TOC-Deadly-Agility-Combat-) feat, should Dreamscarred Press material otherwise not be allowed in the game (the feat won't make Dex melee overpowered or a no-brainer choice). Note also that recent errata (http://dreamscarred.com/path-war-errata/) to Deadly Agility removes the +1 bab prerequisite and the weapon "handedness" clause from the benefit, changing it into:

Prerequisite(s): Weapon Finesse
Benefit(s): You may add your Dexterity modifier in place of your Strength modifier when wielding a light weapon or a weapon that gains the benefits of the Weapon Finesse feat (such as the rapier) when determining additional damage inflicted upon a successful attack.(So when your nightblade hits with his elven curve blade, with the updated Deadly Agility he'd add 1.5 x his Dex mod to damage, just as he does now when using Str.)


I also love the idea of a bloodrager, but my assumption is that taking 1 level for the rage is not enough to really have potential.I wouldn't call it optimized, but it's certainly not the worst thing you can do if you're prepared to make some additional investments.

1 level of bloodrager, Con 14 and the Extra Rage feat gives you 12 rounds of bloodrage, which should be enough for a typical adventuring day if you use it sparingly in the easiest fights. With the Urban Bloodrager (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/bloodrager/archetypes/paizo-bloodrager-archetypes/urban-bloodrager-bloodrager-archetype/) archetype and the Mad Magic (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/mad-magic-combat/) feat, you get +4 morale to Dex and no penalty to AC (or bonus on Will), and you can also use all skills and cast your nightblade spells while raging. A perk of this dip is that you can access some pretty good options dependent on rage, such as Blooded Arcane Strike (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/blooded-arcane-strike-combat/) and Furious Weapon.

The Shadow Bloodline is of course most thematically fitting, but like pretty much all the bloodlines, it has a 1st level bloodline power which is rather pointless for you. I recommend you trade it for a much more interesting bloodline familiar if you decide for this dip.


For the character generation feat i took Shadow Stabber (Tiefling) (Benefit You gain a +2 trait bonus on melee weapon damage rolls made against foes that cannot see you.) but i don't know exactly how to use it properly. I think the Nightblade should have some neat tricks to blind opponents. I mean for example I know about the Brow Gasher spell and that it blinds when it reaches -5.See the "Hidden Shadow Dervish" combo above.


Any other ideas? My character is pretty snarky and moody, chaotic neutral, mostly in it for entertainment and money and sneaks, sleigh of hands and bluffs all over the place. Basically what you'd expect from a roguish tiefling with some succubus or impish like ancestry.For almost constantly available dim light for your HiPS at 8th level and a pretty fun roleplay tool, paying your friendly neighborhood wizard 5,000 gp to cast both a permanent (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/permanency) normal dancing lights (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/dancing-lights) and an eclipsed (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/eclipsed-spell-metamagic/) version on an item your wear works wonders. This allows you to increase the light to dim when in darkness (or when you try to fake being a brightly shining hero) as well as decrease it to dim when in normal light (or when you're mopey/angry/feel like being alone).

[statistx]

Nice replies, thanks again.

Gonna look into that blinding powder and may drop the Brow Gasher then, cause to use that effectively I also wasted my feat on proficiency with the Curved Elven Blade, though maybe I just switch out the spell and keep the path i took to use the blade, since it has some nice damage after all.

I saw a lot of mentioning Path of War in the forum. Gonna have to ask the DM, but i believe i can convince him to allow that.
From what I've read so far I have no clue how it works, but I am confident that a slow workday will be enough to read through the material and understand it.


(So when your nightblade hits with his elven curve blade, with the updated Deadly Agility he'd add 1.5 x his Dex mod to damage, just as he does now when using Str.)

From what I understand that point is moot since our GM allows to use Dex damage if you got Weapon finesse anyway. (Originally that came from a misunderstanding of the rules but then he houseruled it as standard procedure) So Deadly Agility seems to be useless in our round.


Also like the idea with the permanent light manipulations. Lots of good stuff to look into and I just heard our usually weekly round is skipped this week, so I also got time to do so.



Blend is there to make your hide checks AWESOME

Aww, just read it's "Elf only".
Pretty sure my GM would allow it, but i don't want to cheese too much ^^

[statistx]

So an update after our first session since i asked this:

Got the powder but didnt get to use it yet.
He won't let me get the coat cause there is no mage able to do that in the area we're in, BUT since he made a customised class with someone else, i convinced him to switch out my shadow surge ability to a Stealth Attack that works like the rogues, only with 1 level behind (since you get the shadowsurge ability at level 2) and that i have to have a shadowsurge ready (which isnt hard to do when you initiate a fight with stealth).
It just fits with how i play the character and I finally have the stealth attack bonus without having to dip into rogue for example, still gonna keep my eyes out for later levelups and maybe dip into the bloodrager.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

If your feats aren't too bound up already, Variant Multiclassing into Rogue would get you Sneak Attack without losing levels