Naval Combat

[Skyflare19]

I am wanting to mix things up for my party a little bit and give them an opportunity to try something different. To this end, I want to have them on a ship and then pirates attack. The pirates are interested in taking one of the player characters, and if anyone stands in opposition, the pirates will not hesitate to kill them. This results in the captain and first mate getting killed. This will allow for the PCs to fill those roles and hopefully involve them more in the combat than simply shooting arrows.

While guns in my campaign do exist, they are not very common. This results in the pirate ship and the player's ship each having two cannons per side. Neither crew will be in possession of a gun, expect for the captain of the pirate ship. The pirates will also be equipped to take out the mast with flaming arrows.

My main problem here is that beyond these basics, I have very little knowledge on how to conduct this session. I know that the cannons take three rounds to fire, one to load, one to aim, and one to shoot.

I would like to hear some suggestions on what the PCs should be able to do to aid in the fight, as well as how to handle the ships' speed, mobility, and health. Thank you in advance.

[Beaureguard]

Personally I think ship combat can get a little underwhelming in D&D. The rules just aren't set up for the dance of ship positions and the weapons involved. If you are going to do it, I'd suggest adding a few more ship weapons. Swivel guns, grenades, and maybe a blunderbuss or two could help give your characters more options of how/when to engage. Adding different cannon rounds could help too. Round shot, hot shot, grape shot, bundle shot, and the multitude of other types of cannon rounds give some other options. I'd also design different parts of the ship with different ACs. Trying to fire a ball and chain shot at the mast would have a different AC than round shot at the broadside. ACs would decrease based on distance (or attack would increase) but the other side would get that advantage too. Targeting the captain with an anti personal round would be tougher than just spraying it over the deck and taking the random shots you got. Get close enough to board and have rolls to determine success of laying the planks and whatnot. Toss a few fireballs into the mix and you might have an exciting fight....once or twice. I think it would be REALLY fun once, but not fun enough to do many more times.

[Skyflare19]

Personally I think ship combat can get a little underwhelming in D&D.
I can see where you are coming from with this, but I am planning on using the ship as a second layer of combat, as well as a sort of timer. I will definitely look into making stats for the different types of cannonball, as well as different ACs and HPs for the various parts of the ship. I plan on having several waves of pirates board the ship in order to take their captive. The pirates will be more focused on destroying the ship than the crew that the PCs are with will, after all, you can still take your prisoner out of the water, resulting in the PCs having to weigh the orders, boarding combat, and maintaining the ship's state. My goal is to make this as exciting as possible, without making it impossible to play.

Do you have any suggestions for the AC or Hp of the parts of the ship. The most vital ones that I can think of are the hull, mast, rudder, and maybe where the cannons are located, but I am open to more locations if you think that they would be pertinent.

[Beaureguard]

Do you have any suggestions for the AC or Hp of the parts of the ship. The most vital ones that I can think of are the hull, mast, rudder, and maybe where the cannons are located, but I am open to more locations if you think that they would be pertinent.

I think the parts you listed are great. I might add a munitions room, but would require a successful check of some kind to know its location (knowledge or perception?).

All of this is just spitballing by the way. I think this combat could be fun, but the rules of how to do it would be entirely homebrew as far as I know. This would be what I would start with and then sit down and try to figure out exact numbers, skills, and resource costs if I were going to try to implement it. Your first combats with whatever you use will probably be too easy or too hard and no matter how you go about it, I think you should let your players know that it's a work in progress and subject to change.

Thinking about it, hitting with a cannon is more like a DC thing than AC. If you're close and both ships are facing broadsides, hitting the hull is easy and would have a low DC. If you're far and the enemy ship is only showing its stern, hitting the mast would be almost impossible. What that DC should be will depend on how easy or hard you're making the cannons to fire (do players firing them get to add dex bonus or proficiency bonuses? Can clerics enchant them to make them more accurate?). In my head firing a cannon is less of a weapon proficiency and more of a skill proficiency. If players wanted to fire every 3 rounds they'd probably have to pass skill checks along the way. Str for carrying munitions from the munitions room for round 1, dex for loading it round two, and....something for the actual firing. I'd probably give the first 2 a DC of like 10 subject to go up during tight maneuvers, rough water, or direct fire. The last would have to flex depending on the shot. Close range at the hull would be my base of 10. Every other factor would increase the DC.

HP would also be hard to work with. If you just calculate damage you'd have a cannonball doing the same damage hitting the canvas sail as it would the hull, and a fireball doing the damage to the underwater rudder as it would to the munitions room.

The further this goes the more I think I'd probably handle it like a series of skill checks. I'd make some navel specific skills and treat piloting the ship, firing the cannons, repairing the ship, and anything else that came up as skill checks. Spells and abilities could still affect these skill checks and raise or lower DCs through blessings or altering the conditions of the battle. The wizard who didn't want to train to learn any useful navel skills could still cast fog obscure the vision of the enemies manning the cannons. The cleric who would rather pray than learn how to put out fires could still make it rain or bless his comrades to gain advantage on skill checks. The bard could fire a swivel gun AND sing a song.

HP would become successful skill checks. I'd design the "damage" on the cannon ammo in terms of dice AND skill checks. So a cannonball may do 3d6 (random with no thought numbers btw) damage OR provide one successful skill check against any part of the ship. Ball and chain may do 2d8 damage OR 3 skill success against the mast OR 1 skill success against any other part of the ship. Anti personnel munitions would do damage but provide no skill success.

[LordVonDerp]

You're best bet is probably to treat it as a boarding battle, where it's basically just a land battle that happens on the decks of ships.

Fire emblem Awakening has a good example of this.

[Skyflare19]

Thinking about it, hitting with a cannon is more like a DC thing than AC. If you're close and both ships are facing broadsides, hitting the hull is easy and would have a low DC. If you're far and the enemy ship is only showing its stern, hitting the mast would be almost impossible. What that DC should be will depend on how easy or hard you're making the cannons to fire (do players firing them get to add dex bonus or proficiency bonuses? Can clerics enchant them to make them more accurate?). In my head firing a cannon is less of a weapon proficiency and more of a skill proficiency. If players wanted to fire every 3 rounds they'd probably have to pass skill checks along the way. Str for carrying munitions from the munitions room for round 1, dex for loading it round two, and....something for the actual firing. I'd probably give the first 2 a DC of like 10 subject to go up during tight maneuvers, rough water, or direct fire. The last would have to flex depending on the shot. Close range at the hull would be my base of 10. Every other factor would increase the DC.

I was anticipating this kind of thing. I was going to set it up so that the DC to hit the mast was very high, probably around 20, while the hull would be around 10. The only addition that PCs and NPC crew members will get to fire the cannons would be their Int Mod.

As far as the damage goes, the basic cannon and cannonball combo, as seen in the DMG, shows 8d10, which seems a bit high, unless I give each part of the ship a ridiculous HP.

Thank you so much for all of the help.

[Skyflare19]

You're best bet is probably to treat it as a boarding battle, where it's basically just a land battle that happens on the decks of ships.

Fire emblem Awakening has a good example of this.

A good chunk of the battle would be taking place on an individual basis. PCs vs NPCs. However, in order to ensure a better chance at winning that fight, they will need to be balancing the normal combat with the ship's maintenance and trying to stop the enemy's cannons. I want to make this something more than just the average "roll to hit... roll damage... next player... etc." I want this to be something challenging and exciting. Some PCs will be fighting off the boarding crew, or possibly even boarding their attacker's ship (since one of the PCs can fly), but while they are doing that, maybe someone else is shouting orders to the NPC crew and directing them to fight in a particular way.

[Kane0]

May not be relevant, but I threw together some stuff quickly for a pirate game I was in not long ago. Maybe that would help you (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?519159-Quick-and-dirty-naval-combat)?

[Armored Walrus]

There's a ship battle in one of the AL adventures for the Tyranny of Dragons campaign. In that they have a dex save every round to keep your feet as the deck rolls beneath you, and a portion of the ship that is on fire, that spreads every round.

Something like this would allow you to treat the ship as the environment for the battle, but doesn't really help you with the naval battle portion of it. Although, once it comes down to boarding I'm not sure how much actual maneuvering and cannon-firing either ship is doing any more.

I think the cannons were generally used to rake the deck to try to cut down the other ship's number of defender/attackers (like a shot gun) or to take out the rigging of the other ship so that it couldn't maneuver any more (either to run away or to pursue). I don't think they were generally loaded with actual cannon balls and used to attempt to penetrate the hull of the enemy ship, as that would result in sinking the other ship (not something pirates want to have happen to their prize, although not a bad tactic for a ship that just wants to end the fight and get away).

Archers on each ship would have been stationed to take out the crew or the defenders of the enemy ship. I don't think fire arrows were historically used all that much, although maybe catapults with burning pitch? then again, maybe not, since there's a risk there of setting your own ship on fire with that.

[Skyflare19]

May not be relevant, but I threw together some stuff quickly for a pirate game I was in not long ago. Maybe that would help you (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?519159-Quick-and-dirty-naval-combat)?

This is really cool. I will definitely see what I can incorporate into this coming session.

[Skyflare19]

There's a ship battle in one of the AL adventures for the Tyranny of Dragons campaign. In that they have a dex save every round to keep your feet as the deck rolls beneath you, and a portion of the ship that is on fire, that spreads every round.

Something like this would allow you to treat the ship as the environment for the battle, but doesn't really help you with the naval battle portion of it. Although, once it comes down to boarding I'm not sure how much actual maneuvering and cannon-firing either ship is doing any more.

I think the cannons were generally used to rake the deck to try to cut down the other ship's number of defender/attackers (like a shot gun) or to take out the rigging of the other ship so that it couldn't maneuver any more (either to run away or to pursue). I don't think they were generally loaded with actual cannon balls and used to attempt to penetrate the hull of the enemy ship, as that would result in sinking the other ship (not something pirates want to have happen to their prize, although not a bad tactic for a ship that just wants to end the fight and get away).

Archers on each ship would have been stationed to take out the crew or the defenders of the enemy ship. I don't think fire arrows were historically used all that much, although maybe catapults with burning pitch? then again, maybe not, since there's a risk there of setting your own ship on fire with that.

I love that bit about the Dex Saves to stay on your feet. I have ideas about small amounts of gunpowder used as weapons with the arrows, making small ranged explosives and possibly using fire arrows to burn the mast. The concern of these pirates is not to acquire loot, but to take a very important prisoner, in order to protect their captain from adverse magical effects related to that prisoner.

[Armored Walrus]

If they are after a very important prisoner, I think that makes it far less likely that they'll do things like shoot fire, or target the deck with cannons. They won't want to accidentally kill their target. Seems more likely to me that they would try to close as quickly as possible, maybe a few volleys of chain shot to the rigging to make the ship easier to catch, and then board.

[Skyflare19]

If they are after a very important prisoner, I think that makes it far less likely that they'll do things like shoot fire, or target the deck with cannons. They won't want to accidentally kill their target. Seems more likely to me that they would try to close as quickly as possible, maybe a few volleys of chain shot to the rigging to make the ship easier to catch, and then board.

That's about how I was planning to start it off. They will go for the mast and rudder so that the ship can't escape, then they will capture their target. They aren't too worried that she will die, mostly because of the fact that she is a werewolf, and they expect that she will transform to save herself, protecting her from most of their weapons.

[CaptainSarathai]

Like Kane0, I've already typed up some seriously in-depth naval rules before: HERE (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22013570&postcount=16)

If you're looking to just run a quick fight aboard, I'd run it as a boarding action, with Dex to stay on your feet aboard the rocking ship if you move more than half speed. Then, just control the guns as a DM and use the exchanged shots as a way to implement a time limit and sense of urgency.
"This round they fire their cannon. The ship begins taking on water from two new, large holes in the hull. If you don't hurry and knock out those guns, you'll be sunk!"

don't worry so much about minutae. I'd only worry about articulate sailing rules and gunnery if the party was interested in doing a long-term naval campaign. Otherwise just let them tell you what they'd like to do with the ship, get to the boarding quickly, and run the various decks and ship areas as a dungeon of sorts, with them hearing the thunder of cannons every 3 rounds or so until you've deemed the fight has gone too long and their ship sinks.

[Skyflare19]

Like Kane0, I've already typed up some seriously in-depth naval rules before: HERE (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22013570&postcount=16)

If you're looking to just run a quick fight aboard, I'd run it as a boarding action, with Dex to stay on your feet aboard the rocking ship if you move more than half speed. Then, just control the guns as a DM and use the exchanged shots as a way to implement a time limit and sense of urgency.
"This round they fire their cannon. The ship begins taking on water from two new, large holes in the hull. If you don't hurry and knock out those guns, you'll be sunk!"

don't worry so much about minutae. I'd only worry about articulate sailing rules and gunnery if the party was interested in doing a long-term naval campaign. Otherwise just let them tell you what they'd like to do with the ship, get to the boarding quickly, and run the various decks and ship areas as a dungeon of sorts, with them hearing the thunder of cannons every 3 rounds or so until you've deemed the fight has gone too long and their ship sinks.

I really like some of the ideas that you have one what you wrote up. It is clear that you put a lot of time and thought into it. I will definitely take a few things from it. Part of the reason that I want the party to play a few of the more important roles, as your captain role for example, is because the party itself is strong enough that a few can be spared, and I think that they might enjoy something like being able to give the orders. It will cut some of the responsibility off of me, and give them a little more of a role in deciding their fate. If they don't think about strategic places to shoot, or maintaining fire, then they will quickly regret it. Thank you for all of the hard work you put into your creation, and for sharing it with me.