Occult Rituals and Knowledge DCs

[Palanan]

I’d like to use one of the high-level occult rituals in my campaign, but I’m not sure what level the primary caster needs to be in order to hit a Knowledge DC in the upper 40s. The secondary casters explicitly can’t use Aid Another, and mundane implements won’t work either.

So, if you’re a divine caster trying to reach a Knowledge DC of 45+, what level would you need to be for it to be feasible, and what feats, spells and magic items would help you get there?

[noob]

I am quite sure someone can do that at level 1:
1: Be an elven generalist domain wizard(technically since it is 3.5 material which have not been updated to pathfinder it is rule legal)
2: Write scrolls of moment of prescience and of guidance of the avatar.
3: Retrain to cleric.
(alternatively just buy those two scrolls with money you get by selling level 9 spells at level 1)
And many other variants of it(you might save the cost of the scroll of moment of prescience by using feats and flaws)
At level 2 it is so much trivial you do not even have to ask yourself how to do it.(like become pun pun)(allowed in pathfinder since it is 3.5 material that have not been updated)
At level 4 you can even just be an omniscifer.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by noob
…technically since it is 3.5 material which have not been updated to pathfinder it is rule legal….

I should have specified I’d like to do this using Pathfinder material only, no 3.5.

[Tuvarkz]

-Variant Multiclass, Bard nets you Bardic Knowledge, aka half your level to knowledge checks
-A Mask of a Thousand Tomes nets you a +10 competence bonus to all knowledge checks, although it blinds you. If you need to be able to see for the ritual, instead a Mossy Disk Ioun Stone nets you a +5 competence bonus to the check (Alternatively, if 3pp is allowed, DSP's Synaptic Mask and a +10 Shard nets you a +10 bonus to a single knowledge check)
-If psybertech is allowed, a skillchip can net you up to +10 enhancement bonus to a single knowledge skill
-Skill Focus for a +6 bonus (after 10 ranks), Humans can get up to three for one feat via Focused Study alternate racial.
-Luckstone+Fate's Favored trait for a +2 luck bonus
-Greater Heroism for a +4 morale bonus (Moment of Greatness can double it to +8)
-Whispering Lore nets you a +4 insight bonus to a knowledge skill based on location, or alternatively Ancestral Communion for up to +8, or Akashic Communion for up to +10 (although you don't know the result with this last one and get an inaccurate result on a natural 1, for this an ability to let you take 10 or touch of luck domain power may be useful)
-The Ignoble Form spell nets you a +3 racial bonus (racial bonuses stack) to a single knowledge skill.

[The_Jette]

Seems the earliest that someone should be looking into performing these rituals with a DC of 45 or higher is at least level 10. At that point you can have:
10 ranks in knowledge (whatever)
5 bonus from Alt Multiclass Bardic Knowledge
6 bonus from Skill Focus
5 to 10 from Intelligence (assuming that Int is being built up for this and magic items)
5 from 20 helpers adding +1/4 helpers
Gives a total bonus of 31 to 36 to the check. A 36 makes it so you only have to roll a 9+ in order to hit the DC of 45.

[CockroachTeaParty]

Let's say you're a Lv. 7 elf cleric of Calistria with the Luck and Charm domains, starting with a 14 INT (easy, with the +2 INT from being an elf).

Take Skill Focus (knowledge), Scholar, and Breadth of Experience feats. Grab a trait that gives you +1 to the knowledge skill you need (one probably exists)

Grab a mossy disk ioun stone and a headband of vast INT +2, only 6,500 gp, affordable for 7th level WBL.

Let's assume you can only have 10 min./level or longer spells active, and nobody else is there to cast spells for you during the ritual.

You cast Heroism on yourself from the Charm domain.

7 ranks + 3 class skill + 3 INT, +2 morale, +5 competence, +3 skill focus, +2 Scholar, +2 breadth of experience, +1 trait = +28

So you need a 17+ on your own, but you get your Luck domain re-roll. Helpers for the ritual will bring it down. Get 28 assistants, and you make it on a 10.

That's relatively specialized, but not undoable.

[The_Jette]

Let's say you're a Lv. 7 elf cleric of Calistria with the Luck and Charm domains, starting with a 14 INT (easy, with the +2 INT from being an elf).

Take Skill Focus (knowledge), Scholar, and Breadth of Experience feats. Grab a trait that gives you +1 to the knowledge skill you need (one probably exists)

Grab a mossy disk ioun stone and a headband of vast INT +2, only 6,500 gp, affordable for 7th level WBL.

Let's assume you can only have 10 min./level or longer spells active, and nobody else is there to cast spells for you during the ritual.

You cast Heroism on yourself from the Charm domain.

7 ranks + 3 class skill + 3 INT, +2 morale, +5 competence, +3 skill focus, +2 Scholar, +2 breadth of experience, +1 trait = +28

So you need a 17+ on your own, but you get your Luck domain re-roll. Helpers for the ritual will bring it down. Get 28 assistants, and you make it on a 10.

That's relatively specialized, but not undoable.

The only thing wrong with this is the 28 assistants, as the bonus caps out at +5 for 20. Other than that, this looks really good.

[CockroachTeaParty]

The only thing wrong with this is the 28 assistants, as the bonus caps out at +5 for 20. Other than that, this looks really good.

Ah, gotcha. So 12+ success, but you have your Luck domain re-roll. Probably your best low-level option, barring self-item crafting with Spellcraft optimization to stretch WBL more. If you could bump your INT up to 18, you're back to 50/50 odds.

[Serafina]

Posting 3.5 material is pretty useless, since Pathfinder really is doing it's own thing now. Compatability or not, it'd be about as useful as posting Modern D20 material - it's certainly not rule-legal.


That being said, actually useful advice.
First, remember the easily-accessible bonuses to all rituals
- you gain up to a +5 bonus from having more secondary casters
- you gain up to a +5 bonus from having a caster level (including racial SLAs or other such things IIRC)
- tapping into a ley line can give up to a +5 bonus to the ritual as well

Then, there are a bunch of feats that can aid you.
- Skill Focus does of course work, as do other feats
- Sacrifical Ritualist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/sacrificial-ritualist/) provides a +4 bonus. It's not even necessarily evil if you have a volunteer you resurrect afterwards.
- Haruspicy (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/haruspicy/) provides a +2 bonus, and it doesn't even have to be a sentient or powerful creature, a small animal would suffice
- Ritual Mask (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/ritual-mask/) provides a +3 bonus, in addition to some other benefits.
- Practiced Ritualist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/practiced-ritualist/) gives +2 and some other benefits

A number of class features can help you too.
- Bardic Knowledge is up to +10 to Knowledge skills, making Bards or those who go for Variant Multiclass surprisingly good ritualists. However, this fails if Spellcraft is required.
- There is a shaman archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/shaman/archetypes/paizo-shaman-archetypes/true-silvered-throne-shaman-archetype/) that is built around occult rituals, with up to a +5 bonus for them.
- there are a variety of means (https://www.google.de/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj3wJPmuNLUAhWLEVAKHYbWCOUQFggkMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fdocs.google.com%2Fdocument%2Fd%2 F1o91Z-s0R7Vf2Ujj1lFqGC5W--9JOyU0I6uC9XRIR5to%2Fedit&usg=AFQjCNFZGDM0y_TMCZ0RjYZR5P0bHFpmkw) to shift the ability score for intelligence-based skills to Wisdom, including the shaman lore spirit.
- if you worship Irori, you can get +4 to all Knowledge-checks via Deific Obedience

The highest DCs I could find were DC 47 for Hungering of Shadows. The next-highest is DC 37.
To hit that DC 47 at, say, level 17 (where you'd normally be able to cast 9th-level spells), you'd have 20 from skill ranks and class skill and 14 from a proper ritual setup and being a caster. That's before any feats, magic items or ability score modifier, and you only have 13 points to go - that's quite doable. You almost auto-succeed at those DC 37 rituals too.

Indeed, to auto-success at a DC 37 ritual can be done much sooner.
At level 12, you could get 16 from skill ranks/class skills, 3 from caster level, 5 from secondary casters, 5 from a ley line, easily 6 from Wisdom, and 2 from being a shaman. That's an auto-success for level 9 rituals, without any feat-investment.
With the investment of two feats, you can add +4 or +5 to that, which is enough to drop the secondary casters (beyond what the ritual needs) or the ley line.


So really, while the skill checks can seem daunting, pretty much any class that has the skill ranks can do it - you should have a caster level, but AFAIK spell-like abilities can suffice for that.
Well, it'd be pretty hard to be a truly amazing ritualist if you don't have a strong Intelligence-score or an appropriate replacement. But Shamans can do it with Wisdom and Oracles with Charisma, and everyone else can compensate for a somewhat-lower score by taking a few feats.

[Ellrin]

Don't forget tears to wine. It's a level one spell for a significant list of casters, and at CL 15 (so 375 gp for a scroll), you get a +10 enhancement bonus to all Int- and Wis-based skills for 150 minutes.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by CockroachTeaParty
Let's say you're a Lv. 7 elf cleric of Calistria with the Luck and Charm domains….

How’d you guess? :smalltongue:

This is very helpful, thanks.


Originally Posted by Serafina
That being said, actually useful advice.

It is indeed, and much appreciated, especially the feats.


Originally Posted by Serafina
The highest DCs I could find were DC 47 for Hungering of Shadows.

That’s exactly the one I’m going for. There's a whole mini-campaign wrapped up in that ritual.


Originally Posted by Ellrin
Don't forget tears to wine. It's a level one spell for a significant list of casters, and at CL 15 (so 375 gp for a scroll), you get a +10 enhancement bonus to all Int- and Wis-based skills for 150 minutes.

…wow.

That almost seems too good to be true.

[Serafina]

Oh gods I just knew there was going to be at least one spell that utterly trivializes occult rituals.
It also puts a specialists ability to cast 9th-level rituals at 9th-level or so, which is pretty absurd

Well, at least it doesn't benefit those rituals that require a Charisma-based skill. FYI, there are currently 11 of those.
And of course Shamans, who have a use for Charisma anyway, really benefit here again. Though needing Wisdom (primary casting, determines your Int-related skills), Charisma (some other skills) and Intelligence (to actually learn rituals) is pretty darn MAD.

Speaking of learning occult rituals:
- it seems that you can take 10 on that
- I'm not sure you can take 20 on that, or if you can if you increase the learn-time 20-fold.
- there seem to be preciously little, if any, bonuses to ability-checks (or Intelligence-checks in particular)
Actually, on that note I only found these means to get any bonuses:
- Meditation Master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/meditation-master) provides a +1 bonus that can be used on an ability check
- a Cyclops Helm (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/c-d/cyclops-helm/) might allow you to just treat the roll as if you had gained a 20, which trivializes learning rituals for a cheap 5.900 gp. GMs are likely to call shenanigans though
- Investigatior Inspiration should work too

[Tuvarkz]

Well, at least it doesn't benefit those rituals that require a Charisma-based skill
And for all of those, there's Inquisitions (Reformation or Conversion), Clever Wordplay, Bruising Intellect, Pragmatic Activator, and/or whatever the Wis to Diplomacy trait name's is.

[Ellrin]

Wis to Diplomacy trait

Is there one of those? There's Wis to Bluff (Cunning Liar), but I don't remember seeing Wis to Diplomacy the last time I was building a Wis-based character.

[Tuvarkz]

Is there one of those? There's Wis to Bluff (Cunning Liar), but I don't remember seeing Wis to Diplomacy the last time I was building a Wis-based character.

Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Qadira, Jewel of the East book. Empathic Diplomat regional trait

[Ellrin]

Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Qadira, Jewel of the East book. Empathic Diplomat regional trait

I'll have to look that one up, thanks.