the most powful skill

[Baby Gary]

I have a simple question, what is the most powerful skill? I am putting Diplomacy, Handle animal, and UMD as the top three, but which one is the most powerful?

[JNAProductions]

I have a simple question, what is the most powerful skill? I am putting Diplomacy, Handle animal, and UMD as the top three, but which one is the most powerful?

Why Handle Animal?

[Afgncaap5]

I don't think it's the *most* powerful, but I think honorable mention should go to iaijutsu focus.

(Also, is power here measured numerically or measured in versatility? And if so, do you want to measure "The ability to activate a wand" as a single thing, or do you want to measure "the ability to activate a wand of Fireball" as a different thing from "the ability to activate a wand of Fly"? Because in the first instance, it's not the skill itself that's powerful so much as the thing you use the skill on being powerful.)

[Baby Gary]

take a look at this (https://web.archive.org/web/20170108052053/http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=46jvrg2g3sb1ejfdi01os236h5&topic=10396.0) as a level one marshal you can have 3 roc pets! thats 18 HD x 3 worth of animals

[Baby Gary]

I don't think it's the *most* powerful, but I think honorable mention should go to iaijutsu focus.

(Also, is power here measured numerically or measured in versatility? And if so, do you want to measure "The ability to activate a wand" as a single thing, or do you want to measure "the ability to activate a wand of Fireball" as a different thing from "the ability to activate a wand of Fly"? Because in the first instance, it's not the skill itself that's powerful so much as the thing you use the skill on being powerful.)

both, UMD has a crap ton of versatility while diplomacy has a ton of effective numerical power

[JNAProductions]

take a look at this (https://web.archive.org/web/20170108052053/http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=46jvrg2g3sb1ejfdi01os236h5&topic=10396.0) as a level one marshal you can have 3 roc pets! thats 18 HD x 3 worth of animals

How do you get 3 baby Rocs?

Because, according to the PFSRD...


Due to their scarcity and the high risk involved in harvesting them, a single man-sized roc egg can net 4,000 gp if transported to market undamaged.

I'd assume it's similar in 3.5.

[Baby Gary]

you rear them using the power of backstory (if you pulled this in a game without your DM knowing there would be some flying books)

[JNAProductions]

you rear them using the power of backstory (if you pulled this in a game without your DM knowing there would be some flying books)

So basically, you're advocating cheating?

[Nifft]

Truespeak is the most powerful skill.

It can kill a whole thread.

[Baby Gary]

So basically, you're advocating cheating? that wasn't my intention, however your backstory could involve you finding a roc's nest, stealing the eggs and rearing them. It really just matters how lenient your DM is.

[Tainted_Scholar]

Lucid Dreaming (MotP) is also a very powerful skill.

[JNAProductions]

that wasn't my intention, however your backstory could involve you finding a roc's nest, stealing the eggs and rearing them. It really just matters how lenient your DM is.

I mean, you can also say your backstory includes single-handedly slaying a dragon and stealing its entire hoard, therefore starting the game with 500,000 GP worth of gear.

But most DMs follow WBL.

[Silva Stormrage]

that wasn't my intention, however your backstory could involve you finding a roc's nest, stealing the eggs and rearing them. It really just matters how lenient your DM is.

Thats pretty much the equivelent of saying you found an ultra powerful artifact in your backstory and you arent over wbl because artifacts dont have a price... thats basically cheating. Handle animal is still good but you really arent going to find roc eggs at level 1 even if you theortically could. Just like a level 2 cleric could command a paragon psuedonatural (epic version) human skeleton with rebuke undead but its not really realistic to assume you can get that at level 2

[Tainted_Scholar]

Because, according to the PFSRD...



I'd assume it's similar in 3.5.

I can't find any such rule in 3.5. Admittedly I only checked the DMG, PH and MM.

[Deophaun]

I mean, you can also say your backstory includes single-handedly slaying a dragon and stealing its entire hoard, therefore starting the game with 500,000 GP worth of gear.
My backstory gives me 20 levels of Wizard.

I'm going to go with the Knowledge skills. They're the ones that, even without much more than just putting normal ranks into it, have saved more parties' asses than all other skills combined in my experience.

[JNAProductions]

I can't find any such rule in 3.5. Admittedly I only checked the DMG, PH and MM.

Did you check under the Roc entry? I coulda sworn they had a price in 3.5...

[Baby Gary]

Thats pretty much the equivalent of saying you found an ultra powerful artifact in your backstory and you aren't over wbl because artifacts don't have a price... thats basically cheating. Handle animal is still good but you really aren't going to find roc eggs at level 1 even if you theoretically could. Just like a level 2 cleric could command a paragon psuedonatural (epic version) human skeleton with rebuke undead but its not really realistic to assume you can get that at level 2

I know, I am not telling you to go and do this, its just that you have to ability to do it. having the ability to do something is different than actually doing something. its like how you can get infinite stats but you wouldn't do it in game, this is a similar thing but not quite as powerful

[JNAProductions]

I know, I am not telling you to go and do this, its just that you have to ability to do it. having the ability to do something is different than actually doing something. its like how you can get infinite stats but you wouldn't do it in game, this is a similar thing but not quite as powerful

That's... No. A skill is only powerful if you can actually use it to be powerful. You can use Diplomacy to be powerful, or Bluff, or UMD. Handle Animal, not so much. (Not to say it's useless-just not top three material.)

[Tainted_Scholar]

Did you check under the Roc entry? I coulda sworn they had a price in 3.5...

Yep, nothing in there about its eggs.

[Nifft]

I know, I am not telling you to go and do this, its just that you have to ability to do it. having the ability to do something is different than actually doing something.

If you can get your DM to agree to that thing with the Roc eggs, then you clearly have a lot of ranks in the Handle DM skill -- which probably is the msot powerful skill possible.

[Baby Gary]

That's... No. A skill is only powerful if you can actually use it to be powerful. You can use Diplomacy to be powerful, or Bluff, or UMD. Handle Animal, not so much. (Not to say it's useless-just not top three material.)

I see your point, if handle animal is not in your top 3 what takes its place?

[Baby Gary]

If you can get your DM to agree to that thing with the Roc eggs, then you clearly have a lot of ranks in the Handle DM skill -- which probably is the msot powerful skill possible. that would be a great skill to have ranks in, just imagine what you could do with that power. Muahahaha *lightning in the background* I am the most powerful being in existence!

[JNAProductions]

I see your point, if handle animal is not in your top 3 what takes its place?

Diplomacy, UMD, and... I dunno, Truespeak? Really, Diplomacy and UMD are the top by a country mile, but at least Truespeak lets you "cast spells".

[Malimar]

I went to find Bubs the Commoner (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=7097263&postcount=38) to see how he solved the "eggs/newborns are expensive tho" problem, and... it looks like he didn't. Just assumes you can find three wild young/egg battletitans to train. :smallannoyed:

Anyhow obviously the answer is Handle Humanoid (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd%2Ffools%2F20030401c).

[Tainted_Scholar]

Anyhow obviously the answer is Handle Humanoid (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd%2Ffools%2F20030401c).

I desperately need someone to build a cat adventurer using the resources from the page.

[Zaq]

Diplomacy, UMD, and... I dunno, Truespeak? Really, Diplomacy and UMD are the top by a country mile, but at least Truespeak lets you "cast spells".

Not true. Truespeak on its own basically does nothing. Levels in Truenamer are what give you the ability to use utterances. (Yeah, yeah, there are feats to give you low-level LEM utterances, but again, that's the feat giving you the benefit, not the skill itself.)

Having Truespeak with no utterances is a bit like having a spell component pouch with no spells. Sure, the components are important in that you have to have them (or an equivalent, like Eschew) for the spells to work, but the components themselves do nothing.

[JNAProductions]

Not true. Truespeak on its own basically does nothing. Levels in Truenamer are what give you the ability to use utterances. (Yeah, yeah, there are feats to give you low-level LEM utterances, but again, that's the feat giving you the benefit, not the skill itself.)

Having Truespeak with no utterances is a bit like having a spell component pouch with no spells. Sure, the components are important in that you have to have them (or an equivalent, like Eschew) for the spells to work, but the components themselves do nothing.

True.

Maybe Autohypnosis?

[ColorBlindNinja]

Not true. Truespeak on its own basically does nothing. Levels in Truenamer are what give you the ability to use utterances. (Yeah, yeah, there are feats to give you low-level LEM utterances, but again, that's the feat giving you the benefit, not the skill itself.)

Having Truespeak with no utterances is a bit like having a spell component pouch with no spells. Sure, the components are important in that you have to have them (or an equivalent, like Eschew) for the spells to work, but the components themselves do nothing.

To be fair, Truespeak is required for a couple of spells in the Tome of Magic. Unname can be handy (due to the way it's worded the target's gear doesn't get a save).

I second Lucid Dreaming, as you can potentially kill people you otherwise couldn't reach with it.

[Baby Gary]

I third Lucid Dreaming, It is a very good way to kill someone.

[Goaty14]

Title is misleading, are we talking about class skills (knowledge, appraise, use rope, etc) or Class Abilities (Rage, Bonus Feats, familiar, etc)?

[Celestia]

The obvious answer is Craft (Basket Weaving)

[atemu1234]

I went to find Bubs the Commoner (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=7097263&postcount=38) to see how he solved the "eggs/newborns are expensive tho" problem, and... it looks like he didn't. Just assumes you can find three wild young/egg battletitans to train. :smallannoyed:

Anyhow obviously the answer is Handle Humanoid (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd%2Ffools%2F20030401c).

I'm in the process of persuading a DM to actually let me use the stuff from that article as a Tibbit.

[Gildedragon]

Hard to top diplomacy by how easy it is to boost to the stratosphere.

UMD is handy, but Diplo can say, convince a wizard to help you out...
Or even better "Handle Humanoid"

And either Bluff or Lucid Dreaming for the rest of the time

[Manyasone]

I'm in the process of persuading a DM to actually let me use the stuff from that article as a Tibbit.

Good luck on rolling your 'handle DM' check with that. April fools articles have a hefty penalty

[rel]

We have actually considered using the cat article in a real game.

To throw a few new skills into the mix, spot, listen and sense motive. They seem to get rolled more often than than all the other skills combined and failing a roll can kill you. While having reliably high numbers can no sell some of the more tedious tropes.

[Jay R]

Knowledge (DM)

[Mordaedil]

Everybody knows Knowledge (Philosophy) is the most powerful skill in D&D.

http://existentialcomics.com/comic/45

[Morphic tide]

Top three? UMD, Knowledge (Religion) and Iaijutsu Focus

UMD lets you do one very big thing: Bypass race usage restrictions with a flat DC 25 check. There's some items specific to certain things which are crazy good. Like a set of horseshoes that gives +10 Int and a bundle of other good things.

Knowledge (Religion) got a bundle of Human Sacrifice stuff attached to it over time. You can get ahold of some pretty strong things with it thanks to these functions.

Iaijutsu Focus lets you do some significant damage with conditions that can be gamed in some silly ways. Gnomish Quickrazor comes to mind... Many-limbed creatures can get some serious damage out of it for the opening round of a fight.

[Zaq]

The obvious answer is Craft (Basket Weaving)

Come on. Let's at least TRY to stick to stuff that isn't obviously broken beyond where any reasonable GM will ban it outright.

[King of Nowhere]

that wasn't my intention, however your backstory could involve you finding a roc's nest, stealing the eggs and rearing them. It really just matters how lenient your DM is.

So obviously, the most powerful skill is sweet-talking the DM. You can persuade the npcs to help you with diplomacy, but how much they willl help is determined by sweet-talking the DM. You can use magic devices, but how many of those you will find in your loot depends on how well you sweet-talk the DM. You can train the strongest animal, but whether they are even available will depend on sweet-talking the DM. And I have no idea what truespeak or iaijutsu focus do, but I'm sure it will strongly depend on sweet-talking the DM.

Even better, it doesn't cost you a single skill point, because it's a skill of the player, not the character.
And that's how the 8th level barbarian in my party ended up with a +5 flaming sword that granted him great cleave, a pair of gloves that send out ghostly hands to make free attacks every round, and +5 dragonhide armor that also gives cold resistance 30/-. That player has more charisma than I can handle.

[Tainted_Scholar]

Knowledge (Religion) got a bundle of Human Sacrifice stuff attached to it over time. You can get ahold of some pretty strong things with it thanks to these functions.

I had forgotten about the Sacrifice rules. Remembering them, I would agree that Knowledge Religion is one of the most powerful skills.

[ColorBlindNinja]

I had forgotten about the Sacrifice rules. Remembering them, I would agree that Knowledge Religion is one of the most powerful skills.

Assuming your DM is insane enough to allow them, Truenamers excel at this sort of thing.

You can easily get free wishes, if you pump your check high enough.

Edit: "them" = sacrifice rules, not the Truenamer.

[Tainted_Scholar]

Assuming your DM is insane enough to allow them, Truenamers excel at this sort of thing.

You can easily get free wishes, if you pump your check high enough.

Edit: "them" = sacrifice rules, not the Truenamer.

I'm pretty sure only an insane (or sadistic) DM would allow a person to play a Truenamer. It's like letting someone waterboard themself.

[ColorBlindNinja]

I'm pretty sure only an insane (or sadistic) DM would allow a person to play a Truenamer. It's like letting someone waterboard themself.

I'd let a player be a Truenamer if their heart was set on it, but I'd make sure they understood what they're getting themself into.

[Baby Gary]

I'd let a player be a Truenamer if their heart was set on it, but I'd make sure they understood what they're getting themself into.

thats why I will never play a truenamer, I don't want to be in living hell.

[ColorBlindNinja]

thats why I will never play a truenamer, I don't want to be in living hell.

I've played around with one (optimized to make Truespeak checks, of course) and at higher levels (9+) they're not too bad.

Extremely frustrating at lower levels, though.

[Thurbane]

Two points I'd like to raise:

1. Very few DMs will allow Diplomacy to work as written. RAW, it's an incredibly powerful skill. In practice, how much fun is a game going to be where the BBEG becomes your best friend after a few words?

2. Regarding the WBL discussion earlier (regarding Rocs): worth pointing out that WBL is a guideline, not a rule. Of course, it's a guideline that most people follow to avoid the game getting broken. As a DM no, I wouldn't let you have three Roc eggs at level 1 as part of your backstory. But to call out out as "cheating" is a little harsh.

On a related note, I had a quick look in A&EG, as I thought there might by actual pricing for Rocs there, but no luck. Considering the price for a young Owlbear is 3000gp, one would imagine that even a single Roc egg would be worth more than any level 1 character could realistically be expected to have.

[heavyfuel]

The obvious answer is Craft (Basket Weaving)

Pretty sure I once saw a Basket Weaver build that beat the Twice Betrayer

[icefractal]

Handle Animal is the one that gets off the ground earliest. Diplomacy doesn't become crazy until you get a very large bonus (and not at all, if you're not using the ELH), and UMD needs items to work with.

Forgery / Linguisitics is one I think should qualify, although it's more niche. It's an opposed check against itself, so most people you run into have no chance at spotting that it's fake. And it can be used "remotely" via minions, unlike most. It is pretty campaign-dependent though - in, say, an Eberron game set in Sharn, it will be awesome. In Dark Sun, maybe not so much. :smallwink:

[nedz]

Knowledge Religion -> Pun Pun

[Morphic tide]

Knowledge Religion -> Pun Pun

The Wish can only be done once per person, IIRC, so you have to be doing the Pun Pun thing first try. The standard is Candle of Invocation, for obvious reasons.

[ColorBlindNinja]

The Wish can only be done once per person, IIRC, so you have to be doing the Pun Pun thing first try. The standard is Candle of Invocation, for obvious reasons.

Regardless of if you plan to go Pun Pun or not, a free Wish is ridiculous. I think WotC were hoping only the villains would use the sacrifice rules.

[Jormengand]

Well, let's run down the list:

Appraise: No. The only vaguely useful thing you can do is use a feat that allows you to identify a magic item's properties, but there's a skill trick that lets you do the same with spellcraft only the skill trick is better.
Autohypnosis: Maybe. Practically every one of its uses is concievably viable, many of them are very useful ("Resist dying" doesn't sound at all powerful...).
Balance: Unlikely. You can learn a feat which allows you to ignore trips and difficult terrain with fairly easy balance checks, and you need balance to gain access to the hilarious roof-jumper feat, and twisted charge might let you make turns you shouldn't be able to during a dive, but it's a bunch of weird tricks with no coherent theme.
Bluff: Maybe. The base bluff skill, the epic use, and some of the feat uses (and some of the feats with bluff as a prerequisite) are all good, and feinting multiple targets as a move action with a feat and a skill trick becomes something a rogue likes very much.
Climb: No, aside from the consequences of the Hammer and Piton feat's weird wording which maybepossibly allows you to pin someone to the moon.
Concentration: No. It's useful - aside from some of the ToB uses, it's concentration; every spellcaster takes concentration, near enough - but it's not exactly earth-shatteringly powerful either.
Control Shape: No. Useful, sure, but not exactly poweful.
Craft: Maybe. It's very useful for making money (especially craft poisonmaking), and being able to make your own poisons has the added benefit of being able to use the feats which increase the DC and damage by 1, which isn't terrible. Kobolds with the Extraordinary Trapsmith feat have a very good day when they find out that they can make traps twice as fast and make four times as money out of it as normal (or make them at half price if they actually want to use them). Trophy Hunter is a weird feat but does give you free-ish pseudo-magical items which you can just sell. But the main problem with craft is that it takes time and does very little but make, or save, money which could be made faster by adventuring more in the same time.
Decipher Script: No. None of its uses is groundbreaking.
Diplomacy: Contender for the best. Being able to change the attitudes of others is, if the rules are played straight out of the book by the DM, absolutely ridiculous. There's another skill that's even more ridiculous if played out the book, though... we'll get to that. It's also worth pointing out that diplomacy is a prerequisite for the absolutely dumb feat Legendary Commander, but that's at epic levels so everything hs already gone to pot by then anyway.
Disable Device: Unlikely. You can disable a "Fairly simple or fairly small" object, and the highest DC is 25, and it doesn't take an unreasonable length of time. Weirdly, you can practically obviate open lock like this, but if read too literally the DM may allow you to disable the entire door. Hells, maybe you can disable someone's crossbow in the middle of combat: nothing stopping you! Even if you do, though, there's nothing massively gamebreaking you can do without wilful misinterpretation of the rules.
Disguise: No. It does what it says on the box and not much else.
Escape Artist: No. Fun with weird grapple nonsense and a trick which allows you to repeatedly enter and exit grapples and make a lot of touch attacks (if you have a touch attack which does anything as standard) aside, it's useful but not revolutionary.
Forgery: No. This should be a use of bluff (or sense motive to detect a forgery), not a skill. The fact that only a forger can work out that it's a forgery easily makes it a lot easier to pass but no more useful if you do.
Gather Information: No. "Practically strictly worse knowledge (local)" isn't exactly gonna sell me on this.
Handle Animal: Unlikely. Being able to get abberations, some constructs, dragons, elementals, fey, giants, humanoids, some magical beasts, monstrous humanoids, most outsiders and some undead to do what you want is leagues apart from being able to get animals to do it, even if diplomacy weren't orders of magnitude faster.
Handle Humanoid: No. Go away.
Heal: No. Autohypnosis allows characters to heal themselves at no action cost anyway. Being able to do nonmagical healing with a skill trick is really nice, and being able to heal with your otherwise-useless TU uses is neat, unless you were doing DMM stuff. Staggering blow is also a nice feat with heal as a prereq, especially if you're doing some kind of crit-fisher build (though unfortunately most of the good weapons for that aren't bludgeoning), but ultimately heal heals, and it doesn't even do it that well.
Hide: No. While it can give you nonmagical invisibility (Tome of Battle gives this option, to no-one's surprise) and there's a weird loophole that an Arcane Trickster can use to keep blowing up their own location with a fireball and hiding in it, and cloak dance's constant concealment is nice (certainly for spellcasters with no intention of using that move action for anything else), hide is another skill which has one job.
Iajutsu Focus: No. Pseudo-sneak attack is nice, but it's not the kind of mover and shaker that some of the other skills are. Being able to smash objects (and constructs and undead and plants) with it is genuinely nice though.
Intimidate: Unlikely. Usually bad diplomacy, has applications for samurai with imperious command, but generally isn't that great.
Jump: Unlikely. Copy all the battle jump stuff from balance down here. Flying Kick is appreciated by monks, as is Mantis Leap.
Knowledge: Contender for the best. So long as you can argue that a question is within your field of study, you can answer that question with a check that cannot be higher than DC 30 (so long as it doesn't concern a monster with more than 20 hit dice), even if there is no possible way you could know that information. Eat that, the entire school of Divination! There's also the small matter of Knowledge (Religion) in the case of the missing sentient creatures, or "How to get your deity to cast CL 20 spells at everything." Oh, and Knowledge Devotion, that feat that gives you an extra knowledge skill and gives you a bonus to attack and damage rolls which ranges from "Enough to copy an ordinary feat and a half" to "Enough to copy an ordinary feat five times over, and another one two and a half times over." Oh, and the bonus to attack and damage rolls doesn't say it only works with weapons, either. You can also use the Collector of Stories skill trick to get a +5 bonus on all those skill checks to identify monsters, which are the same skill checks that Knowledge Devotion cares about, so...
Listen: No. Again, it's a "Useful skill that does a thing" skill, but doesn't break the game wide open.
Martial Lore: No. Why is this even a skill?
Move Silently: No. Useful, does a thing, not amazing.
Open Lock: No. Probably obviated by disable device.
Perform: Unlikely. The epic use copies diplomacy, and From Smite to Song is pretty nice. Otherwise, it's a money-making method.
Profession: Unlikely. A DM could be very open about the "Solve common problems in your trade" part, but otherwise not very useful.
Psicraft: Maybe. Required for epic powers, so...
Ride: No. Some of the "Ride target to death" tricks are funny, but not overly helpful.
Scry: No. The skill no longer actually does anything.
Search: No. Another useful-not-powerful skill.
Sense Motive: No. Again, useful not powerful.
Sleight of Hand: Unlikely. If you can hit the epic DCs to do free action nonsense, and the DM ignores the part where there's meant to be a reasonable limit to how many free actions you can take in one round, it's exceptionally good, otherwise... it's not bad; your opponent can't oppose it (at least not to stop you; they can see you do it but not stop you). But not great.
Speak Language: No. Pass; almost everyone you'd want to speak to speaks common.
Spellcraft: Maybe. Required for epic spells, so...
Spot: No. Useful, not powerful.
Survival: No. Useful for a very limited range of actions.
Swim: No. A little useful at best.
Truespeak: It's complicated. If you're a truenamer (or acolyte of the ego, bereft, disciple of the word, etcetera), then it's obviously the best use of your skill points. If you're a wizard then it's okay. If you're anything else, then the truespeak feats are actually decent enough maybe to warrant it (like, I wouldn't be averse to having Universal Aptitude off a feat). If you're a monk then you have a relatively easy way in to the hilariously powerful Word Given Form Mastery ability, but apart from that... it's massively situational, unsurprisingly.
Tumble: No. It can be buffed up to be a decent option, but it's not groundbreaking. Word given Form Mastery does also require tumble, though.
Use Magic Device: No. Also known as "Why didn't you just be a class that can do this without having to roll? Like, say, WIZARD?"
Use Psionic Device: No. Also known as "Why didn't you just be a class that can do this without having to roll? Like, say, PSION?"
Use Rope: No. You're kidding, right?

So the contenders I can see are, in rough order:

Sleight of Hand: If you do the stupid free action everything trick.
Spellcraft: If you're an epic spellcaster.
Psicraft: If you're an epic manifester.
Truespeak: If you're a truenamer, or one of the other classes that just flat-out needs it.
Knowledge: If your DM sticks very literally to every DC and rule.
Diplomacy: If your DM essentially sticks to the DCs and rules, but won't let you use knowledge as budget divination.
Autohypnosis: Otherwise.
Diplomacy, again: Otherwise, if autohypnosis doesn't exist.

These are harder to place in the ordering:

Bluff, Disable Device, or Profession: If your DM is so liberal about the vaguely-defined things that they can do that they become more powerful than whatever of the above seven skills is the most powerful.


I'm pretty sure only an insane (or sadistic) DM would allow a person to play a Truenamer. It's like letting someone waterboard themself.

To be clear, would you also say the same of a DM who let their players play a rogue, paladin, barbarian, fighter, monk, soulknife, or any of the other classes which are categorically weaker than the truenamer?

[ColorBlindNinja]

SNIP

Nice analysis.


To be clear, would you also say the same of a DM who let their players play a rogue, paladin, barbarian, fighter, monk, soulknife, or any of the other classes which are categorically weaker than the truenamer?

:smallconfused: Monk and Soulknife, I can see, but are the rest of those classes really weaker?

If you minmax a Truenamer to the Abyss and back, they have their uses, but short of the sacrifice rules, I can't see them being a whole lot stronger than any of the other classes you mention.

- Paladin: I was under the impression that with enough ACFs, they're not that bad.
- Rogue: Factotum's are better in every single way, but I didn't think that they're terrible.
- Fighter: I could see this one. But what about Dungeon Crasher and Zhentarim?
- Barbarian: I thought that Barbarians are pretty good at damage dealing, and have a few other useful abilities.

I'm not trying to be contrary or anything, I'm legitimately curious; why do you think those classes are worse than a Truenamer?

Edit: Forgot about Conjunctive Gate, but that's only at level 20.

[Jormengand]

If you minmax a Truenamer to the Abyss and back, they have their uses, but short of the sacrifice rules, I can't see them being a whole lot stronger than any of the other classes you mention.

- Paladin: I was under the impression that with enough ACFs, they're not that bad.
- Rogue: Factotum's are better in every single way, but I didn't think that they're terrible.
- Fighter: I could see this one. But what about Dungeon Crasher and Zhentarim?
- Barbarian: I thought that Barbarians are pretty good at damage dealing, and have a few other useful abilities.

I'm not trying to be contrary or anything, I'm legitimately curious.

Paladins CAN be good, but Paladin straight out of the PHB is bad. Like, sure, if you're a sword of the arcane order battle blessing mystic fire knight abjurant champion... thing, then you're pretty good, otherwise you're not great.
Rogues do skills about as well as a truenamer (rogue gets level+3+stat to 8+int skills, truenamer gets level+8+stat to 4+int skills, then adds level/3 to most of the rogue skills, and 10 to knowledge and bluff) and do a lot less damage without effort to keep enemies flat-footed. They don't get to fly under their own power, heal, or do any of the other truenamer-y stuff that truenamers can.
Fighters and barbarians hit things with sticks at varying levels of efficacy. Pass.

Truenamer, is comparatively good even out of the gate: even with fairly low optimisation (and it's a lot easier to buff truespeak than attack) it's a lot easier to get hits off with a truenamer than a fighter, and when you do they're less "2d6+stuff" and more "40d6*1.5". Okay, maybe that high isn't exactly "Low-OP", but your single-target damage is some of the best in the game even without anything buffing it, and extend/empower utterance should be relatively obvious. And assuming your DM actually reads what the knowledge skill actually does, the +15 is stupidly nice. Plus, if you wanna gish it up, knowledge devotion allows you to make up for your comparative combat inability compared to the fighter.

Conjunctive gate is the meme dream, but honestly? There's no level at which I would take a rogue, barbarian, fighter, ranger (without mystic ranger/SOTAO hijinks) or paladin (without MFK/SOTAO/other stuff hijinks) over a truenamer. It's just so much nicer to have "Spells" which you can use fairly often and which actually do things than ones which emulate cantrips or summon very late natures' allies which are pretty weak by the time you get them.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Paladins CAN be good, but Paladin straight out of the PHB is bad. Like, sure, if you're a sword of the arcane order battle blessing mystic fire knight abjurant champion... thing, then you're pretty good, otherwise you're not great.

OK.


Rogues do skills about as well as a truenamer (rogue gets level+3+stat to 8+int skills, truenamer gets level+8+stat to 4+int skills, then adds level/3 to most of the rogue skills, and 10 to knowledge and bluff) and do a lot less damage without effort to keep enemies flat-footed.

Rogues do get a better skill list, while the Truenamer mostly just gets Knowledge. Knowledge is very useful, but it doesn't help that much with traps.


They don't get to fly under their own power, heal, or do any of the other truenamer-y stuff that truenamers can.

Point taken.


Fighters and barbarians hit things with sticks at varying levels of efficacy. Pass.

Fair enough. :smallsmile:


Truenamer, is comparatively good even out of the gate: even with fairly low optimisation (and it's a lot easier to buff truespeak than attack) it's a lot easier to get hits off with a truenamer than a fighter,

I was under the impression that unless you really pump those Truespeak checks, success was rather low.


and when you do they're less "2d6+stuff" and more "40d6*1.5". Okay, maybe that high isn't exactly "Low-OP", but your single-target damage is some of the best in the game even without anything buffing it, and extend/empower utterance should be relatively obvious.

In my (admittedly limited) experience with Truenamers, I generally stayed away from the damaging utterances. I'm guessing you're using Empower SLA for the 1.5, but is the 40d6 just from several rounds of slow burn?


And assuming your DM actually reads what the knowledge skill actually does, the +15 is stupidly nice. Plus, if you wanna gish it up, knowledge devotion allows you to make up for your comparative combat inability compared to the fighter.

I'd forgotten about Knowledge Devotion, but I agree that the skill in general is useful.


Conjunctive gate is the meme dream, but honestly? There's no level at which I would take a rogue, barbarian, fighter, ranger (without mystic ranger/SOTAO hijinks) or paladin (without MFK/SOTAO/other stuff hijinks) over a truenamer. It's just so much nicer to have "Spells" which you can use fairly often and which actually do things than ones which emulate cantrips or summon very late natures' allies which are pretty weak by the time you get them.

Interesting. Thanks for explaining all this.

I agree about Conjunctive Gate; it's nice on paper, but probably won't see any real game use.

[Deophaun]

Sleight of Hand: Unlikely. If you can hit the epic DCs to do free action nonsense, and the DM ignores the part where there's meant to be a reasonable limit to how many free actions you can take in one round, it's exceptionally good, otherwise... it's not bad; your opponent can't oppose it (at least not to stop you; they can see you do it but not stop you). But not great.
Since you're including feats, Master Pickpocket boosts Sleight of Hand from "not bad" to "FRICKEN AWESOME!" It's easy to hit the DC at that point to steal the full plate armor someone's wearing as a free action.

Naturally, a sane DM will put some limits on that, but--as written--Master Pickpocket just cares that the armor isn't held EDIT: IN HAND, not that it's worn.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Since you're including feats, Master Pickpocket boosts Sleight of Hand from "not bad" to "FRICKEN AWESOME!" It's easy to hit the DC at that point to steal the full plate armor someone's wearing as a free action.

Naturally, a sane DM will put some limits on that, but--as written--Master Pickpocket just cares that the armor isn't held, not that it's worn.

The Shadowcaster's Umbral Hand combos well with Sleight of Hand, from what I've heard.

[Jormengand]

I was under the impression that unless you really pump those Truespeak checks, success was rather low.

Well.

Any schmuck has a bonus at first level of 4 (int) + 4 (skill ranks) + 3 (skill focus) = 11. Let's assume you don't think "Oh, masterwork tools" or "Oh, Illumians or a +int race" or "Oh, anything else" and just do that. Let's also assume that fighter mcphyter got himself a 4 (str) + 1 (bab) + 1 (weapon focus) = 6. If you're accosted by a wild fighter with whatever armour and shield he likes, you need a 6 to cast your ability on him. If fighter mcphyter is accosted by a wild truenamer with a chain shirt and a +1 dex bonus, he needs a 9. If he's accosted by a real monster trying to be threatening, it could be even higher. Now, assuming you keep racking up bonuses faster than the DC scales - you have amulets of the silver tongue from the same book, and you might remember that masterwork tools exist, and so forth - you get better at making the truespeak checks. Meanwhile, mcphyter is having a bad day with his +20 bab, +6 str, +5 weapon, and ACs like the pit fiend's 40 which he still has problems hitting. Plus, it's a lot easier to boost your AC than it is to boost your HD (and therefore your truespeak DC).


In my (admittedly limited) experience with Truenamers, I generally stayed away from the damaging utterances. I'm guessing you're using Empower SLA for the 1.5, but is the 40d6 just from several rounds of slow burn?

In most games - especially if fighters are involved - combat actually lasts multiple rounds. Plus, you have multiple ways to stop your opponent doing anything to stop you (like turning invisible and legging it) for long enough to let the opponent take the 4d6*1.5/round for ten rounds (empowered extended mortalbane reversed energy negation, which is a mouthful, if you're interested), which is still more damage per round than a lot of fighters I've seen do.

I'd forgotten about Knowledge Devotion, but I agree that the skill in general is useful.


I agree about Conjunctive Gate; it's nice on paper, but probably won't see any real game use.

I mean, once you're at 20th level, "We could get a Solar to do it" does become your legitimate solution to, like, everything.

[Cisturn]

Of the three you mentioned, I'm going to go with Diplomacy. I think that might be the only skill with the potential to shut down a whole campaign.

In one of my first campaigns I played a cleric who managed to recruit some of the Big Bad's henchman using a Sanctuary spell and the Diplomacy skill. I've been a big of skill since then.

After Diplomacy and UMD, I think Bluff may be one of the most powerful skills. Getting someone to believe you comes in handy a lot in dnd.

Though not as powerful as the others I believe Forgery is also pretty strong. In order to determine if something was forged, a player has to role an opposed forgery check. This means that having even a little bit of forgery can be very useful.

[Morphic tide]

Since you're including feats, Master Pickpocket boosts Sleight of Hand from "not bad" to "FRICKEN AWESOME!" It's easy to hit the DC at that point to steal the full plate armor someone's wearing as a free action.

Naturally, a sane DM will put some limits on that, but--as written--Master Pickpocket just cares that the armor isn't held EDIT: IN HAND, not that it's worn.

...You know, my first killing spree of Whiterun Guards was preceded by grinding Pickpocket to 100, then stealing all their armor. Right off them. So when I finally did the killing spree, it was to the tune of entirely nude and unarmed men chasing down a Khajit that was killing them by quickly crouching and stabbing them in the face.

Oh, I also maxed out Sneak before leaving the first cave. The one with the Bear on the way out of Helgan. So I had the perk that lets me crouch to force a retarget, which happens to include a few frames of Sneak Attack availability. Combined with x15 damage with daggers while sneak attacking...

[ColorBlindNinja]

Well.

Any schmuck has a bonus at first level of 4 (int) + 4 (skill ranks) + 3 (skill focus) = 11. Let's assume you don't think "Oh, masterwork tools" or "Oh, Illumians or a +int race" or "Oh, anything else" and just do that. Let's also assume that fighter mcphyter got himself a 4 (str) + 1 (bab) + 1 (weapon focus) = 6. If you're accosted by a wild fighter with whatever armour and shield he likes, you need a 6 to cast your ability on him. If fighter mcphyter is accosted by a wild truenamer with a chain shirt and a +1 dex bonus, he needs a 9. If he's accosted by a real monster trying to be threatening, it could be even higher. Now, assuming you keep racking up bonuses faster than the DC scales - you have amulets of the silver tongue from the same book, and you might remember that masterwork tools exist, and so forth - you get better at making the truespeak checks. Meanwhile, mcphyter is having a bad day with his +20 bab, +6 str, +5 weapon, and ACs like the pit fiend's 40 which he still has problems hitting. Plus, it's a lot easier to boost your AC than it is to boost your HD (and therefore your truespeak DC).

OK, I get what you're saying.


In most games - especially if fighters are involved - combat actually lasts multiple rounds. Plus, you have multiple ways to stop your opponent doing anything to stop you (like turning invisible and legging it) for long enough to let the opponent take the 4d6*1.5/round for ten rounds (empowered extended mortalbane reversed energy negation, which is a mouthful, if you're interested), which is still more damage per round than a lot of fighters I've seen do.

Interesting.


I mean, once you're at 20th level, "We could get a Solar to do it" does become your legitimate solution to, like, everything.

Anything up to 40 HD is game... Too bad so few games take place at those levels. I might want to try a one-shot campaign someday with a level 20 Truenamer.

[Deophaun]

...You know, my first killing spree of Whiterun Guards was preceded by grinding Pickpocket to 100, then stealing all their armor. Right off them. So when I finally did the killing spree, it was to the tune of entirely nude and unarmed men chasing down a Khajit that was killing them by quickly crouching and stabbing them in the face.

Oh, I also maxed out Sneak before leaving the first cave. The one with the Bear on the way out of Helgan. So I had the perk that lets me crouch to force a retarget, which happens to include a few frames of Sneak Attack availability. Combined with x15 damage with daggers while sneak attacking...
Yeah, thief skills in Skyrim are pretty much the definition of OP. Not as OP as the spell I created in Oblivion that nuked everything around with fire, ice, and lightning and then turned me invisible long enough for my mana to recharge and do it all again, but close enough. (Also called "How I beat TESIV without getting past level 4")

The saving grace in 3.5 is the NPCs aren't run by a brain-dead AI that thinks if it can't see something, it must not exist.

[Nifft]

Well, let's run down the list:

(...)

So the contenders I can see are, in rough order:

Sleight of Hand: If you do the stupid free action everything trick.
Spellcraft: If you're an epic spellcaster.
Psicraft: If you're an epic manifester.
Truespeak: If you're a truenamer, or one of the other classes that just flat-out needs it.
Knowledge: If your DM sticks very literally to every DC and rule.
Diplomacy: If your DM essentially sticks to the DCs and rules, but won't let you use knowledge as budget divination.
Autohypnosis: Otherwise.
Diplomacy, again: Otherwise, if autohypnosis doesn't exist.

These are harder to place in the ordering:

Bluff, Disable Device, or Profession: If your DM is so liberal about the vaguely-defined things that they can do that they become more powerful than whatever of the above seven skills is the most powerful.

Seems well-reasoned and comprehensive.

Kudos.

[lolcat]

Depends on your campaign. If it's more on a social vein, diplomacy offensively is very very useful.

If you like going the road less travelled and have an open minded DM, lucid dreaming can be useful.

Otherwise, UMD and Spellcraft + having access to trapsearching somewhere in the party.

[Vizzerdrix]

Craft alchemy. How else can you make shapesand? Enough shapesand can get you long term flight, the ability to cure any illness or disease, massave fortifications, siege weapons, access to spells, and access to any situational item (wine for mimics, garlic for vampires).

All that, and from only one use of craft alchemy. Other items include healing, buffs, debuffs, enviromental hazzard bypassers, and even several explosives.

[EldritchWeaver]

Scry: No. The skill no longer actually does anything.

What exactly happened there?

[Jormengand]

What exactly happened there?

Put simply, the scry skill basically says it's used in the way that the scrying spell specifies it is, but scrying no longer calls for a scry check because it was updated to 3.5 and therefore the 3.0 version of the spell is overridden but the 3.0 skill isn't.

[Jowgen]

So the contenders I can see are, in rough order:

Sleight of Hand: If you do the stupid free action everything trick.
Spellcraft: If you're an epic spellcaster.
Psicraft: If you're an epic manifester.
Truespeak: If you're a truenamer, or one of the other classes that just flat-out needs it.
Knowledge: If your DM sticks very literally to every DC and rule.
Diplomacy: If your DM essentially sticks to the DCs and rules, but won't let you use knowledge as budget divination.
Autohypnosis: Otherwise.
Diplomacy, again: Otherwise, if autohypnosis doesn't exist.

These are harder to place in the ordering:

Bluff, Disable Device, or Profession: If your DM is so liberal about the vaguely-defined things that they can do that they become more powerful than whatever of the above seven skills is the most powerful.

Excellently reasoned, though I think a few things bare adding.

Craft as a money-maker becomes more practical during adventuring if you have access to Unseen Crafter, especially since it lets you effectively craft off Charisma.

Disable Device can get more useful via the SBG rules on disabling Wondrous Architecture, essentially letting you use it as an at-will dispel magic against annoying dungeon features.

Spellcraft also has an ill-defined use in MoF where you can draw a magic circle that boosts the caster level of an area effect spell based on your check result (+1 CL for every 5 over 20). Even at a conservative interpretation that it only works for the Skill-checking caster once per casting of a spell and only within the confines of the circle, this can have some powerful applications with enough skill-check boosting.

Sleight of Hand becomes a lot more practical if you can get the Master Pickpocket feat (CoS), making the free-action stuff a mere -10 and vastly boosting what items can be stolen. Even if you can only take 1 free action a turn, being able to deprive enemy combatants of vital equipment without taking a hit to your actions for the turn is potentially quite handy.

[AnimeTheCat]

I have a question:


Changing others’ attitudes with Diplomacy generally takes at least 1 full minute (10 consecutive full-round actions). In some situations, this time requirement may greatly increase. A rushed Diplomacy check can be made as a full-round action, but you take a -10 penalty on the check.

What enemy in their right mind is going to allow someone to talk to them for a full minute? I get maybe walking up on some bandits in their camp if you can very quickly (6 seconds) convince them that they should be interested in ANYTHING but what's in your pockets. But the BBEG? He's not going to give even one flying **** what you say. You've probably foiled his plans too many times for him to listen to anything you have to say and if you're swinging your sword at him, he's not going to be friendly (if you can even get him there) for long.

So basically, You'll need to pass a DC 60 diplomacy check to get BBEG from Hostile to Friendly in a full round, but what's to stop him from immediately becoming hostile to everyone but you? "You're not bad ya know, but that freak in the robes about to cast a spell can kindly get out of my castle."

Diplomacy can be useful but when the DM applies their capability to apply situational modifiers to any skill or ability check, the skill is just fine.

[ColorBlindNinja]

I have a question:



What enemy in their right mind is going to allow someone to talk to them for a full minute? I get maybe walking up on some bandits in their camp if you can very quickly (6 seconds) convince them that they should be interested in ANYTHING but what's in your pockets. But the BBEG? He's not going to give even one flying **** what you say. You've probably foiled his plans too many times for him to listen to anything you have to say and if you're swinging your sword at him, he's not going to be friendly (if you can even get him there) for long.

So basically, You'll need to pass a DC 60 diplomacy check to get BBEG from Hostile to Friendly in a full round, but what's to stop him from immediately becoming hostile to everyone but you? "You're not bad ya know, but that freak in the robes about to cast a spell can kindly get out of my castle."

Diplomacy can be useful but when the DM applies their capability to apply situational modifiers to any skill or ability check, the skill is just fine.

No, the DM being able to fix it doesn't change how it works RAW.

That's the a prime example of the Oberoni fallacy.

[Tainted_Scholar]

I have a question:



What enemy in their right mind is going to allow someone to talk to them for a full minute? I get maybe walking up on some bandits in their camp if you can very quickly (6 seconds) convince them that they should be interested in ANYTHING but what's in your pockets. But the BBEG? He's not going to give even one flying **** what you say. You've probably foiled his plans too many times for him to listen to anything you have to say and if you're swinging your sword at him, he's not going to be friendly (if you can even get him there) for long.

So basically, You'll need to pass a DC 60 diplomacy check to get BBEG from Hostile to Friendly in a full round, but what's to stop him from immediately becoming hostile to everyone but you? "You're not bad ya know, but that freak in the robes about to cast a spell can kindly get out of my castle."

Diplomacy can be useful but when the DM applies their capability to apply situational modifiers to any skill or ability check, the skill is just fine.

If he's friendly to you, he's probably not going to attack your companions, especially if you ask him not to.

[Gildedragon]

I have a question:



What enemy in their right mind is going to allow someone to talk to them for a full minute? I get maybe walking up on some bandits in their camp if you can very quickly (6 seconds) convince them that they should be interested in ANYTHING but what's in your pockets. But the BBEG? He's not going to give even one flying **** what you say. You've probably foiled his plans too many times for him to listen to anything you have to say and if you're swinging your sword at him, he's not going to be friendly (if you can even get him there) for long.

So basically, You'll need to pass a DC 60 diplomacy check to get BBEG from Hostile to Friendly in a full round, but what's to stop him from immediately becoming hostile to everyone but you? "You're not bad ya know, but that freak in the robes about to cast a spell can kindly get out of my castle."

Diplomacy can be useful but when the DM applies their capability to apply situational modifiers to any skill or ability check, the skill is just fine.

It is only -10 to rush it as a standard action
No penalty if one binds naberius or suchlike

[AnimeTheCat]

It is only -10 to rush it as a standard action
No penalty if one binds naberius or suchlike

When can you bind that? (level please, I just don't know much of anything about the binder class). Even still, that's a DC 50 diplomacy check. Probably more like a DC 54 when you apply the -2 circumstance penalty for conditions that would hamper performance (combat definitely hampers diplomacy) and the additional 2 to the DC from having an uncooperative audience. What is the earliest you can hop to achieve that? From the earlier calculations you'll have:

+2 from half elf
+5 for skill ranks
+6 synergy (Bluff, Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty), Sense Motive)
+2 Masterwork Tool (Even though the validity of this is questionable...)
+4 Charisma (because assume the best natural ability score)
+4 Charisma (because marshal charisma to charisma... even though... yeah...)

Nets you: 23

You need a 31 on the die to succeed your DC 54 diplomacy check to make a hostile person friendly in a minimum of 1 minute, and that's assuming they don't cut your throat while you're doing it. It's likely that the DM would rule that it would take much much longer than that because of the line "In some situations, this time requirement may greatly increase." I doubt anyone can really sacrifice 10+ full round actions to try and Diplomance their way out of an encounter and if they do, they're not helping anyone and probably being a hinderance. What if the BBEG is just ignoring the individual using diplomacy? You can talk till you're blue in the face but you can't force anyone to listen to you.

[Gildedragon]

When can you bind that? (level please, I just don't know much of anything about the binder class). Even still, that's a DC 50 diplomacy check. Probably more like a DC 54 when you apply the -2 circumstance penalty for conditions that would hamper performance (combat definitely hampers diplomacy) and the additional 2 to the DC from having an uncooperative audience. What is the earliest you can hop to achieve that? From the earlier calculations you'll have:

+2 from half elf
+5 for skill ranks
+6 synergy (Bluff, Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty), Sense Motive)
+2 Masterwork Tool (Even though the validity of this is questionable...)
+4 Charisma (because assume the best natural ability score)
+4 Charisma (because marshal charisma to charisma... even though... yeah...)

Nets you: 23

You need a 31 on the die to succeed your DC 54 diplomacy check to make a hostile person friendly in a minimum of 1 minute, and that's assuming they don't cut your throat while you're doing it. It's likely that the DM would rule that it would take much much longer than that because of the line "In some situations, this time requirement may greatly increase." I doubt anyone can really sacrifice 10+ full round actions to try and Diplomance their way out of an encounter and if they do, they're not helping anyone and probably being a hinderance. What if the BBEG is just ignoring the individual using diplomacy? You can talk till you're blue in the face but you can't force anyone to listen to you.

Level 1
With Binder 1 OR the Bind Vestige Feat
It also lets one take 10

Also note that a bard can force a one step shift up with a Masterwork Harmonica (low class target) or a (Edit) Shawm (for high class targets). No save. No minimum performance duration, nor minimum performance check.

[Baby Gary]

When can you bind that? (level please, I just don't know much of anything about the binder class). Even still, that's a DC 50 diplomacy check. Probably more like a DC 54 when you apply the -2 circumstance penalty for conditions that would hamper performance (combat definitely hampers diplomacy) and the additional 2 to the DC from having an uncooperative audience. What is the earliest you can hop to achieve that? From the earlier calculations you'll have:

+2 from half elf
+5 for skill ranks
+6 synergy (Bluff, Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty), Sense Motive)
+2 Masterwork Tool (Even though the validity of this is questionable...)
+4 Charisma (because assume the best natural ability score)
+4 Charisma (because marshal charisma to charisma... even though... yeah...)

Nets you: 23

You need a 31 on the die to succeed your DC 54 diplomacy check to make a hostile person friendly in a minimum of 1 minute, and that's assuming they don't cut your throat while you're doing it. It's likely that the DM would rule that it would take much much longer than that because of the line "In some situations, this time requirement may greatly increase." I doubt anyone can really sacrifice 10+ full round actions to try and Diplomance their way out of an encounter and if they do, they're not helping anyone and probably being a hinderance. What if the BBEG is just ignoring the individual using diplomacy? You can talk till you're blue in the face but you can't force anyone to listen to you.

take a look at this http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Politico_(3.5e_Optimized_Character_Build)

[AnimeTheCat]

Level 1
With Binder 1 OR the Bind Vestige Feat
It also lets one take 10

ok, so even with all of the above bonuses, you can't succeed a DC 54 diplomacy check until much higher levels. Many other skills come online faster and have just as many uses. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy diplomacy. It's a very useful skill. But using the same calculations for UMD, you get better returns sooner. Example:

+5 for skill ranks
+2 Masterwork Tool (Even though the validity of this is questionable...)
+4 Charisma (because assume the best natural ability score)
+4 Charisma (because marshal charisma to charisma... even though... yeah...)

nets you +15 (since I used 5 skill ranks last time)

That can possibly be +19 if you're using a scroll and have the synergy bonuses from decipher script and spellcraft

UMD has DCs of 20 (for a wand) or DC 20-29 (for 0th to 9th level spells). At second level you have a 50% chance of activating a level 9 spell... and diplomacy is the broken ability?

UMD is the most powerful skill, followed but Handle Animal (because you can still use it on magic beasts with an int of 1 or 2), and probably diplomacy third because of how easy it is to buff that.

[ColorBlindNinja]

ok, so even with all of the above bonuses, you can't succeed a DC 54 diplomacy check until much higher levels. Many other skills come online faster and have just as many uses. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy diplomacy. It's a very useful skill. But using the same calculations for UMD, you get better returns sooner. Example:

+5 for skill ranks
+2 Masterwork Tool (Even though the validity of this is questionable...)
+4 Charisma (because assume the best natural ability score)
+4 Charisma (because marshal charisma to charisma... even though... yeah...)

nets you +15 (since I used 5 skill ranks last time)

That can possibly be +19 if you're using a scroll and have the synergy bonuses from decipher script and spellcraft

UMD has DCs of 20 (for a wand) or DC 20-29 (for 0th to 9th level spells). At second level you have a 50% chance of activating a level 9 spell... and diplomacy is the broken ability?

UMD is the most powerful skill, followed but Handle Animal (because you can still use it on magic beasts with an int of 1 or 2), and probably diplomacy third because of how easy it is to buff that.

Making someone indifferent is usually enough to avoid combat, a DC 25 for hostile NPCs.

Plus, you can combine UMD with Diplomacy; Guidance of the Avatar is a 2nd level spell that nets you a +20 competence bonus on skill checks.

[AnimeTheCat]

Making someone indifferent is usually enough to avoid combat, a DC 25 for hostile NPCs.

Plus, you can combine UMD with Diplomacy; Guidance of the Avatar is a 2nd level spell that nets you a +20 competence bonus on skill checks.

But to whom is that individual indifferent? is it to the user of the skill? great, they can go kill the fighter now, they don't care about you. or the healer (unless you are the healer). or the wizard. it's not probable that the NPC is immediately indifferent to the party, who possibly could have already acted out of hostility towards the individual. What if there are more than one enemy? You can't diplomance them all at once. and if you can, refer to point one again. I'm just saying that in my view, as easy as it is to buff and optimize, it's not as good as people make it out to be because the DM can still, at any time, apply situational modifiers.

[ColorBlindNinja]

But to whom is that individual indifferent? is it to the user of the skill? great, they can go kill the fighter now, they don't care about you. or the healer (unless you are the healer). or the wizard. it's not probable that the NPC is immediately indifferent to the party, who possibly could have already acted out of hostility towards the individual. What if there are more than one enemy? You can't diplomance them all at once. and if you can, refer to point one again. I'm just saying that in my view, as easy as it is to buff and optimize, it's not as good as people make it out to be because the DM can still, at any time, apply situational modifiers.

The rules are ambiguous, but I'd say it's likely the NPC would be indifferent to you and your allies.

If there's more than one enemy, the simplest solution would be to use Diplomacy on their leader. Or, just use the skill on them one at a time until they all leave you alone.

What DMs can do doesn't change how the skill works RAW.

God forbid you can make a high enough check to make an NPC fanatical.

[AnimeTheCat]

The rules are ambiguous, but I'd say it's likely the NPC would be indifferent to you and your allies.

If there's more than one enemy, the simplest solution would be to use Diplomacy on their leader. Or, just use the skill on them one at a time until they all leave you alone.

What DMs can do doesn't change how the skill works RAW.

God forbid you can make a high enough check to make an NPC fanatical.

I wasn't trying to directly reference anything about what a DM can do, but more like saying this is how things are before the DM does what they can do. Also, due to the rules being ambiguous, I would say that if are in a party of 4, Druid, cleric, wizard, diplomancer, and you encounter 6 bandits that if you have to diplomance them one at a time, by the time you get to the next one, the first one you diplomanced would probably not be indifferent to you. My justification is that the party, who the NPC is now indifferent to, just attacked someone that they are friendly to, which would cause a rapid negative shift in attitude. The rules don't say this exists, but then again the rules don't say anything about attitude changing when you grab something from a shop keeper and walk away without paying either.

[ColorBlindNinja]

I wasn't trying to directly reference anything about what a DM can do, but more like saying this is how things are before the DM does what they can do. Also, due to the rules being ambiguous, I would say that if are in a party of 4, Druid, cleric, wizard, diplomancer, and you encounter 6 bandits that if you have to diplomance them one at a time, by the time you get to the next one, the first one you diplomanced would probably not be indifferent to you. My justification is that the party, who the NPC is now indifferent to, just attacked someone that they are friendly to, which would cause a rapid negative shift in attitude. The rules don't say this exists, but then again the rules don't say anything about attitude changing when you grab something from a shop keeper and walk away without paying either.

If you plan to be diplomatic, your party isn't going to attack anyone.

You can still convince Pelor to be your BFF, that's pretty broken.

Also, Diplomacy combos pretty well with Bluff.

[AnimeTheCat]

If you plan to be diplomatic, your party isn't going to attack anyone.

You can still convince Pelor to be your BFF, that's pretty broken.

Also, Diplomacy combos pretty well with Bluff.

I think it's less a matter of the party attacking and more a matter of the party defending themselves. Will the party really let the banditos beat up on them just so the diplomatic one can take the 6 full round actions to make them all indifferent? that's 6 rounds of being punched in the face, and to what end?

Diplomacy does combo with bluff pretty well, which I guess is why they have a synergy bonus. I just wish it worked both ways. 5+ ranks in Diplomacy nets you +2 to sense motive and bluff.

[ColorBlindNinja]

I think it's less a matter of the party attacking and more a matter of the party defending themselves. Will the party really let the banditos beat up on them just so the diplomatic one can take the 6 full round actions to make them all indifferent? that's 6 rounds of being punched in the face, and to what end?

The rest of the party can always run away, or take the (otherwise crappy) full defense action.


Diplomacy does combo with bluff pretty well, which I guess is why they have a synergy bonus. I just wish it worked both ways. 5+ ranks in Diplomacy nets you +2 to sense motive and bluff.

True, what I was thinking of was bluffing someone so you can use diplomacy on them.

[AnimeTheCat]

The rest of the party can always run away, or take the (otherwise crappy) full defense action.



True, what I was thinking of was bluffing someone so you can use diplomacy on them.

If the rest of the party runs the bad guys will just start swinging on the diplomacy user because they're using their full round actions on diplomacy. That would make things turn south rather quickly I think :smalltongue:

And I figured that's what you meant, it just made a logical connection in my mind to draw that same logic as to why bluff game diplomacy a synergy bonus. Other than, of course, saying that all liars are diplomats... or is it the other way around... Who knows :smallbiggrin:

[ColorBlindNinja]

If the rest of the party runs the bad guys will just start swinging on the diplomacy user because they're using their full round actions on diplomacy. That would make things turn south rather quickly I think :smalltongue:

And I figured that's what you meant, it just made a logical connection in my mind to draw that same logic as to why bluff game diplomacy a synergy bonus. Other than, of course, saying that all liars are diplomats... or is it the other way around... Who knows :smallbiggrin:

Diplomacy is just letting someone else get your way. :smallamused:

[rel]

Remember that encounters are often a single powerfull opponent and only rarely a group of leaderless individuals that gleefully attack a group that seems to be on reasonable terms with one of their friends.

[AnimeTheCat]

Remember that encounters are often a single powerfull opponent and only rarely a group of leaderless individuals that gleefully attack a group that seems to be on reasonable terms with one of their friends.

that seems like an incredibly easy encounter... I feel like a more common encounter would be a group of 4-6 flunkies of a bandit group or 4-6 people who were starving, picked up their daggers and turned to banditry to fill their bellies. It's very unlikely that you'll face a single person on the road who just flipped a wagon and stole their goods.

Even more common (in my campaigns) tends to be orc/goblin/hobgoblin/gnoll raider bands who are from the same tribe. They travel in packs, hit hard, pillage, and bolt with as much as they can carry. They won't send onsie twosie big bad guys, they may bring a big guy, but not just one guy.

From a mechanical standpoint, you're gimping your encounter buy decreasing the action economy you posess by a factor of 4 and letting the PCs out action you to end the encounter in a single round. Also, you lack the versatility to challenge the whole party that way. If you have a cleric bad guy and they're really strong, they may challenge the part of the party, but once they're halted (by web, grease, etc.) you've given the classes with precision damage a chance to deal hefty damage and end the encounter quickly. By contrast, if you have 4-6 enemies with varying classes, you may be able to challenge everyone in the party with a single encounter. Rogues hide and flank, fighter/barbarian gets in the face of the cleric, ranger harasses the wizard, druid locks down the fighter. A lower level/power group of 4-6 enemies can probably prove a pretty solid challenge for a group of 4 players, but not risk killing anyone.

[Sam K]

I have to agree that changing someone's attitude may not be quite as useful as people assume it is.

Sure, if someone is acting purely on their feelings towards you, it's great. A grumpy bear that becomes indifferent is likely to wander off. Drunky McHooligan and his ruffian friends may be looking for a fight and think you're it (hostile), but if you get him friendly he may decide he'd rather have a drink with you and maybe introduce you to his sister (honestly, getting yer arse kicked is probably a bettter idea), and if you get him to helpful he may decide he and his mates will tag along and fight whatever YOU'RE fighting.

It becomes more complicated if people are driven by other motivations than their attitude towards you. If the city guard is on a mission to arrest you, making them like you may not stop them. Being friendly probably means they ask that you come peacefully (yeah, that always works) and make sure that you get put in a higher class cell if you do (they still spit in your tea, but now they brush their teeth first). If they become helpful, they MIGHT look the other way if they think they can get away with it, but there's a big difference between "willing to take risks for someone" and "willing to suffer for someone" - if they know they're being executed if they let you get away, they'll probably fight to bring you in regardless of if they are helpful or not! And if :miko: believes the 12 gods demands your death, she may be sorry to have to fight you, but she won't let those feelings stop her from doing her duty. There's an entire trope about people who respect and like each other ending up on different sides in a conflict and having to fight despite their feelings.

Ask yourself how PCs handle opponents they like but still have a good reason to fight. They may ask them to surrender, or try to capture instead of killing. What they usually don't do is allow the BBEG to go through with his plan for world destruction just because he's "So damn cool!"

Still one of the best skills around though, especially when combined with bluff!

[Calthropstu]

The most powerful skill eh?
Diplomacy can get you powerful allies.
Bluff can get you out of most situations.
Intimidate can get you information.
UMD can get you access to spells.
Perception can truly save your ass.
And diplomacy, bluff and intimidate without sense motive becomes very very dangerous.
Of the skills, those are the most needed in a party.
The most powerful of these? Probably UMD or diplomacy, with the others recieving honorable mentions. Both can get you powerful things... a spellcaster helping you out is probably better than a single use of a magic item, but diplomacy won't keep him around forever.