SangoProduction
2017-06-23, 01:25 AM
So, Charm Monster, Psionic Charm, Charm Invocation, and so on. There are many ways of achieving the same result in 3.5, but when it comes down to it, who can do it better, if that's what they are really focusing on?
Before anything, one feat to mention: Combat Charm. This lets you use Charm spells without the penalty from being threatened by you or your allies. So this obviates the 4 levels of Master Specialist. This, logically, would apply, or at least be adaptable, to other charms such as Charm, Psionic.
So, first off is the Charm Invocation that the Warlock has. It's essentially an at-will charm monster. And other than being language dependant, it doesn't appear to state that it is mind-affecting, thus lifting it from that immunity which is near impossible to bypass otherwise. GMs might still not let it bypass the immunity, though. You can only dominate one thing at a time, but there's no consequence other than time for continually trying to charm another guy while having your current one beat the enemy.
-Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be a true Dominate option, which, depending on your DM, means that this class has limited combat uses for Charm. But hey, at least you can throw down D6s with the best of em?
Sorcerer is the next runner up. Why? Because Wizards find solutions to problems. Sorcerers find problems to solutions. Exactly what we're going for. Well, they've got much more metamagic potential. Spell Focus and Earth Power / Heighten Spell with various metamagic cost reducers (like Incantrix) can go a long way to making it a low-cost, high DC effect that can be spammed out ad nauseum. They do have to spend several of their fairly limited spell slots, but they have more than enough for all the charm-type spells and some utility, even without Knowstones.
Wizards can do this just as well with Red wizard of Thay, and have many of the same metamagic potential as Sorcerer, 1 level earlier. They suffer a bit more from a lack of firepower in the early game, and will have to wait longer to have more freedom to mess around with charms out of combat (fewer spells per day to "waste"), but they get their spell levels 1 level earlier, and aren't completely left in the cold when they know they are facing that insect colony. Is it worth going Red Wizard over Incantrix?
Wilders are quite the interesting fellows. I'd suggest porting over at least the Psionic Enervation bit from Pathfinder. Regardless, with a single power, they have all the charm spells. But, they get all the targets of Charm Monster spell for only +2 spell levels worth of power points (and half of the targets for +1 spell level), which lets Wilders be much more diverse in the creatures they charm significantly faster. If they want the full Monster duration and targets, then they pay the same effective spell level, but who needs more than 8 hours of a slave? Then Extend Power. Also, Psionic Dominate has the option to gain more targets in a single casting.
-And that's all ignoring the fact that Wilder can break the normal cap for maximum power points, getting access to the target diversity even quicker and easier. Further, they get to have better DCs for less investment....downside...there isn't really much investment you *can* do, which lets an optimizing sorcerer greatly win out in this department. I guess Illithid Heritage isn't all that bad.
-However, they do have access to Thrallherd, which, by a favorable reading, means they can effectively gain Thrallherd level /2 as bonus to DC (because of increased ability to augment it without going over maximum cost), as well as just straight up save points for the target diversity. [Yeah, sure, you also get a second/third character as a class feature, but you're enslaving things anyway, what do you care?]
Who won?
Honestly, I can't really tell, but one would have to give the Sorcerer props for being able to do silly metamagic shenanigans, even if they make them take an extra move action per cast. (Oh, you poor thing! That is so detrimental!)
The Warlock would seem solid as far as a "limited power, but infinite ammo" ability goes (disregarding the fact that such an ability just doesn't work in modern D&D games, as it does have non-combat utility). But it crucially lacked a Dominate option.
Wilder is good at getting their options early and in exactly the chunks that they want. But, they lack the raw power of metamagic, with their only hope of matching it being a favorable reading of a prestige class...and we haven't even considered the sorcerer prestige class...though I can't think of one off the top of my head. (Other than the raw metamagic manipulation BS like Incantrix.)
Before anything, one feat to mention: Combat Charm. This lets you use Charm spells without the penalty from being threatened by you or your allies. So this obviates the 4 levels of Master Specialist. This, logically, would apply, or at least be adaptable, to other charms such as Charm, Psionic.
So, first off is the Charm Invocation that the Warlock has. It's essentially an at-will charm monster. And other than being language dependant, it doesn't appear to state that it is mind-affecting, thus lifting it from that immunity which is near impossible to bypass otherwise. GMs might still not let it bypass the immunity, though. You can only dominate one thing at a time, but there's no consequence other than time for continually trying to charm another guy while having your current one beat the enemy.
-Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be a true Dominate option, which, depending on your DM, means that this class has limited combat uses for Charm. But hey, at least you can throw down D6s with the best of em?
Sorcerer is the next runner up. Why? Because Wizards find solutions to problems. Sorcerers find problems to solutions. Exactly what we're going for. Well, they've got much more metamagic potential. Spell Focus and Earth Power / Heighten Spell with various metamagic cost reducers (like Incantrix) can go a long way to making it a low-cost, high DC effect that can be spammed out ad nauseum. They do have to spend several of their fairly limited spell slots, but they have more than enough for all the charm-type spells and some utility, even without Knowstones.
Wizards can do this just as well with Red wizard of Thay, and have many of the same metamagic potential as Sorcerer, 1 level earlier. They suffer a bit more from a lack of firepower in the early game, and will have to wait longer to have more freedom to mess around with charms out of combat (fewer spells per day to "waste"), but they get their spell levels 1 level earlier, and aren't completely left in the cold when they know they are facing that insect colony. Is it worth going Red Wizard over Incantrix?
Wilders are quite the interesting fellows. I'd suggest porting over at least the Psionic Enervation bit from Pathfinder. Regardless, with a single power, they have all the charm spells. But, they get all the targets of Charm Monster spell for only +2 spell levels worth of power points (and half of the targets for +1 spell level), which lets Wilders be much more diverse in the creatures they charm significantly faster. If they want the full Monster duration and targets, then they pay the same effective spell level, but who needs more than 8 hours of a slave? Then Extend Power. Also, Psionic Dominate has the option to gain more targets in a single casting.
-And that's all ignoring the fact that Wilder can break the normal cap for maximum power points, getting access to the target diversity even quicker and easier. Further, they get to have better DCs for less investment....downside...there isn't really much investment you *can* do, which lets an optimizing sorcerer greatly win out in this department. I guess Illithid Heritage isn't all that bad.
-However, they do have access to Thrallherd, which, by a favorable reading, means they can effectively gain Thrallherd level /2 as bonus to DC (because of increased ability to augment it without going over maximum cost), as well as just straight up save points for the target diversity. [Yeah, sure, you also get a second/third character as a class feature, but you're enslaving things anyway, what do you care?]
Who won?
Honestly, I can't really tell, but one would have to give the Sorcerer props for being able to do silly metamagic shenanigans, even if they make them take an extra move action per cast. (Oh, you poor thing! That is so detrimental!)
The Warlock would seem solid as far as a "limited power, but infinite ammo" ability goes (disregarding the fact that such an ability just doesn't work in modern D&D games, as it does have non-combat utility). But it crucially lacked a Dominate option.
Wilder is good at getting their options early and in exactly the chunks that they want. But, they lack the raw power of metamagic, with their only hope of matching it being a favorable reading of a prestige class...and we haven't even considered the sorcerer prestige class...though I can't think of one off the top of my head. (Other than the raw metamagic manipulation BS like Incantrix.)