Is Heavy Armor Worth It?

[Garresh]

So I've been going over a lot of guides lately, and something I've noticed, particularly in cleric guides, is the value assigned to heavy armor proficiency from those domains. I always thought that all things being equal, heavy armor isn't worth it. Am I wrong?

Basically unless you're running an athletics/grappler build or a polearm/gwf build, you're only getting +1 to AC, at the cost of weaker dexterity saves.

So I'd like to ask those reading. If you are playing a character who uses spells to attack, and does not care about weapons, would you choose medium or heavy armor?

I'm curious what everyone's opinions are from a purely defensive standpoint.

[nickl_2000]

It really depends on your character.

One of the very strong points of heavy armor is that you can use Dex as a dump stat. Having an 8 in dex when you are wearing full plate will not hurt your AC at all. Sure, you dex saves will be even worse, but it frees up points for the other stats you need for a somewhat MAD class.

[JellyPooga]

As a player who almost never takes a Dex score lower than 14, I don't value Heavy Armor that highly. Having said that, there is a value to it if Dex isn't your bag; Heavy Armour gives you the option to dump it. Hard. While still maintaining top-tier AC. Then there's the Heavy Armour Master feat; at lower levels, especially, it can really ramp up your survivability and it still has great value at higher levels.

[Tetrasodium]

So I've been going over a lot of guides lately, and something I've noticed, particularly in cleric guides, is the value assigned to heavy armor proficiency from those domains. I always thought that all things being equal, heavy armor isn't worth it. Am I wrong?

Basically unless you're running an athletics/grappler build or a polearm/gwf build, you're only getting +1 to AC, at the cost of weaker dexterity saves.

So I'd like to ask those reading. If you are playing a character who uses spells to attack, and does not care about weapons, would you choose medium or heavy armor?

I'm curious what everyone's opinions are from a purely defensive standpoint.



It depends. For example, half plate is ac15+dex(max2)=17, while plate is a flat ac18. getting 14 dex is fairly trivial, but say a druid with magical plate still has 18 ac even when wildshaped into a 10 dex critter instead of 15

[Naanomi]

Also a Dwarf (probably Hill Dwarf) can dump DEX and STR both...

[Sigreid]

It all depends on whether you want to invest in dex or not

For a cleric, it means you can put all your points into wisdom, constitution and strength. And still have a mix it up worthy AC.

[rbstr]

It's pretty much only worth it if you want to do a strength build. Really that means heavy weapons. polearms, or grappling. Otherwise dex is a flat out better choice. It's one of the worst balanced aspects of 5e IMO (particularly if you get rid of GWM and/or polearm master, strength is basically terrible then).
You're going to save more HP having +2 or more to your dex saves than by having one more AC.


It all depends on whether you want to invest in dex or not

For a cleric, it means you can put all your points into wisdom, constitution and strength. And still have a mix it up worthy AC.

Alternatively you can put points into Dex instead of strength.
A pure-caster cleric can take 14dex and medium , so they only lose one AC
A front-line-type cleric can pump dex, use medium or light armor and use finesse weapons and be in the same position.

[Sigreid]

It's pretty much only worth it if you want to do a strength build. Really that means heavy weapons. or grappling. Otherwise dex is a flat out better choice. It's one of the worst balanced aspects of 5e IMO.
You're going to save more HP having +2 or more to your dex saves than by having one more AC.



Alternatively you can put points into Dex instead of strength.
A pure-caster cleric can take 14dex and medium , so they only lose one AC
A front-line-type cleric can pump dex, use medium or light armor and use finesse weapons and be in the same position.

True, but sometimes some people aren't interested in doing the Dex thing. This just gives them another way to be viable.

[The_Ditto]

My last character was a Fighter/Mystic ... and I didn't roll great stats.
My build was kind of feat heavy (I wanted Heavy Armor Specialization for the DR and Sentinel for the lockdown) ... so I took the variant Human and burned my first ASI on Sentinel ..
Meant my stats suffered ... so I dumped Dex 10 ... and Cha.
Even my Con was only 12. So I couldn't rely on the Immortal AC=10+dex+Con .. I put my biggest 3 into Str, Int and Wis ...

And yeah . I become VERY tanky .. highest AC in the group ... Plate + Shield .. + Mystic shenanigans ... but yeah, as said, depends on your character.

If you can get a bit of Dex .. you probably don't need/want Heavy armor ..
but if you don't have the stats ... it can be VERY helpful.

[Vaz]

Yes, especially if you're rolling stats. If you're buying stats, it's only 4pts and a bit of gold to get a minimum AC of 14, or even 19 if you have medium armour.

However, you can quite happily still stock all your points elsewhere so that rather than it costing you stat points, or use Dex as your Dump Stat to pick up Heavy Armour, which is only going to cost you gold, rather than your preferred char build.

[solidork]

I think you're pretty much right, op.

What if you just sit at 13 Strength and just use Chain Mail the whole time? you're doing point buy, that saves you a couple of points (13 Str vs 14 Dex), but a 12 Dex person will catch up to you when they get Half Plate.

[strangebloke]

Yes, DEX is the 'best' stat in general, with CON running a close second, but maxing three stats (CON , DEX , and a third primary stat) is rather difficult.

In other words, if DEX or CON is your primary stat, great! If it isn't, heavy armor represents a much bigger benefit for the corresponding opportunity cost. (at least with regards to AC.)

Added to this, many multiclassing options require some strength according to RAW. So if you make DEX your primary stat, you make yourself very very MAD.

The weapons associated with STR are much better than the DEX ones as well.

[Willie the Duck]

So I've been going over a lot of guides lately, and something I've noticed, particularly in cleric guides, is the value assigned to heavy armor proficiency from those domains. I always thought that all things being equal, heavy armor isn't worth it. Am I wrong?

Basically unless you're running an athletics/grappler build or a polearm/gwf build, you're only getting +1 to AC, at the cost of weaker dexterity saves.

Heavy armor is a really solid choice for the people who tend to pick it--two-handed weapon fighters or paladins, and certain breeds of cleric (two types, strength-based martial weapon types, and no-strength, no-dex builds, who are either dwarven, or at peace with a -10' movement)


So I'd like to ask those reading. If you are playing a character who uses spells to attack, and does not care about weapons, would you choose medium or heavy armor?

Again, if the point is to dump both str and dex, I would go dwarven and heavy, otherwise, I would go medium.



It depends. For example, half plate is ac15+dex(max2)=17, while plate is a flat ac18. getting 14 dex is fairly trivial, but say a druid with magical plate still has 18 ac even when wildshaped into a 10 dex critter instead of 15

In what world is the difference between an 8 and a 14 trivial? That's what heavy armor does--it opens up the possibilities that the dump-stat opening allows.



It's pretty much only worth it if you want to do a strength build. Really that means heavy weapons. polearms, or grappling. Otherwise dex is a flat out better choice. It's one of the worst balanced aspects of 5e IMO

Why? That seems to be the system working exactly as intended. As nice as it is that you can use dex for your weapons in many cases (and sometimes other stats), the strength based weapons, and the feats that key off of them, are the best in the game for a DPR melee build, which is exactly where you want your strength intensive characters.




Alternatively you can put points into Dex instead of strength.
A pure-caster cleric can take 14dex and medium , so they only lose one AC
A front-line-type cleric can pump dex, use medium or light armor and use finesse weapons and be in the same position.

While I'm generally finding a melee-centric cleric to be a little bit of too much effort vs. too little payoff compared to a cantrip cleric, if you're going to bother with it, you probably want to be doing a 2h sword or polearm cleric (probably with PAM and Sentinel or PAM and war caster or something). One attack/round for 1d8+attr is just not that different from sacred flaming.

[mephnick]

True, but sometimes some people aren't interested in doing the Dex thing. This just gives them another way to be viable.

Me, pretty much. I hate Dex characters. I want to be the big guy going toe to toe with the biggest MFer on the field. Don't give me any of that pansy elf flippin' crap.

[nickl_2000]

SNIP
pansy elf flippin'

pansy elf flipping sounds like something a Half-orc barbarian would be doing in it's spare time. Walk up behind an elf, grab their foot and toss them like a caber.

[coolAlias]

Heavy armor is a really solid choice for the people who tend to pick it--two-handed weapon fighters or paladins, and certain breeds of cleric (two types, strength-based martial weapon types, and no-strength, no-dex builds, who are either dwarven, or at peace with a -10' movement).
No-Str builds in games where the DM does not enforce encumbrance, and probably not even max carry weight - otherwise, your Str 8 character rocking full plate is also likely to be rocking a 20' lower movement speed, even if they're a dwarf, plus disadvantage on attack rolls and a whole host of other things. ;)

[Garresh]

A small point. I'm saying that this is for a character that does not care about dex or str beyond armor. Getting 18 AC requires 15 points in strength while 17 is available for 14 points in dex. After meeting those thresholds neither will be increased further. So can the argument really be made that strength is somehow better? It costs more in terms of points sk the idea thst it somehow is better for MAD builds seems strange to me.

[Naanomi]

No-Str builds in games where the DM does not enforce encumbrance, and probably not even max carry weight - otherwise, your Str 8 character rocking full plate is also likely to be rocking a 20' lower movement speed, even if they're a dwarf, plus disadvantage on attack rolls and a whole host of other things. ;)
At 8 Strength maybe... but 10 is usually sufficient and 12 is more than enough and still have spared a lot of points in point-buy for other things

Edit: full plate, shield with a holy symbol on it, club: 73 lbs, leaving 7 pounds of gear to carry with 8 Strength... get a mule to carry your nonsense and you'll be fine except in a high-Magic item game where you are loaded down with enchanted nick-knacks

[nickl_2000]

At 8 Strength maybe... but 10 is usually sufficient and 12 is more than enough and still have spared a lot of points in point-buy for other things

I thought you had to have a certain strength to wear heavy armor or else you had disadvantage on attacks and movement speed reduced. Am I mis-remembering?

[Beelzebubba]

Don't give me any of that pansy elf flippin' crap.

For a second, I though you said 'Pansy flippin' Elf' and I thought 'hey, sounds like a Wood Elf Druid using Druidcraft', then 'yeah, I could see the Grand Master of Flowers flipping around a lot, but wait, AD&D Monks had to be human'.

Not only Dad Jokes, but D&D Dad Jokes. :smalltongue:

[Naanomi]

I thought you had to have a certain strength to wear heavy armor or else you had disadvantage on attacks and movement speed reduced. Am I mis-remembering?
Dwarves ignore that as a racial trait

[coolAlias]

I thought you had to have a certain strength to wear heavy armor or else you had disadvantage on attacks and movement speed reduced. Am I mis-remembering?
That's if you don't have proficiency. If you don't have the required Str, I think it just reduces your movement speed by 10' (unless you're a dwarf).

Re: Str and encumbrance - Str 10 you can carry 100 pounds before being heavily encumbered, or max of 150. Str 12 you get 120/180.

Full plate is 65 pounds. Explorer's Pack weighs 59 pounds, or Dungeoneer's Pack at 61.5. (EDIT: here (https://olddungeonmaster.wordpress.com/2014/07/12/dd-5-0-weight-of-standard-equipment-packs/) is where I got the pack weights).

You are already heavily encumbered, even with Str 12, before even considering weapons, shield, or other stuff you pick up.

[nickl_2000]

Dwarves ignore that as a racial trait


That's if you don't have proficiency. If you don't have the required Str, I think it just reduces your movement speed by 10' (unless you're a dwarf).

Re: Str and encumbrance - Str 10 you can carry 100 pounds before being heavily encumbered, or max of 150. Str 12 you get 120/180.

Full plate is 65 pounds. Explorer's Pack weighs 59 pounds, or Dungeoneer's Pack at 61.5.

You are already heavily encumbered, even with Str 12, before even considering weapons, shield, or other stuff you pick up.


Thank you both, I haven't played any heavy armor PCs since changing over to 5e (Halfling Monk, Half-Elf Bard, and VHuman Druid only).

[Naanomi]

That's if you don't have proficiency. If you don't have the required Str, I think it just reduces your movement speed by 10' (unless you're a dwarf).

Re: Str and encumbrance - Str 10 you can carry 100 pounds before being heavily encumbered, or max of 150. Str 12 you get 120/180.

Full plate is 65 pounds. Explorer's Pack weighs 59 pounds, or Dungeoneer's Pack at 61.5. (EDIT: here (https://olddungeonmaster.wordpress.com/2014/07/12/dd-5-0-weight-of-standard-equipment-packs/) is where I got the pack weights).

You are already heavily encumbered, even with Str 12, before even considering weapons, shield, or other stuff you pick up.
full plate, shield with a holy symbol on it, club: 73 lbs, leaving 7 pounds of gear to carry with 8 Strength... get a mule to carry your nonsense and you'll be fine except in a high-Magic item game where you are loaded down with enchanted nick-knacks

[mephnick]

No-Str builds in games where the DM does not enforce encumbrance, and probably not even max carry weight - otherwise, your Str 8 character rocking full plate is also likely to be rocking a 20' lower movement speed

Only if you use the encumberance variant. The RAW encumberance rules are so lenient that they might as well not exist. x15 STR is a total joke.

[coolAlias]

full plate, shield with a holy symbol on it, club: 73 lbs, leaving 7 pounds of gear to carry with 8 Strength... get a mule to carry your nonsense and you'll be fine except in a high-Magic item game where you are loaded down with enchanted nick-knacks
Exactly, but how many 5e adventurers bother with a mule to carry their stuff? Also, you'd still always be at least lightly encumbered when wearing Full Plate even with a Str of 12, which is probably why they gave heavy armors Str requirements - for those tables not playing with the variant encumbrance rules.


Only if you use the encumberance variant. The RAW encumberance rules are so lenient that they might as well not exist. x15 STR is a total joke.
Yeah, I mentioned that it's usually only a big deal when the encumbrance variant rule is in effect, but even without that, at 8 Str you can only carry a max of 120 lbs - something you'd already be exceeding with some of the kits I noted above.

Encumbrance is one of the huge reasons to not dump Str - not using that variant rule is part of what makes Str such an 'obvious' dump stat for many tables.

[Naanomi]

Exactly, but how many 5e adventurers bother with a mule to carry their stuff? Also, you'd still always be at least lightly encumbered when wearing Full Plate even with a Str of 12, which is probably why they gave heavy armors Str requirements - for those tables not playing with the variant encumbrance rules.
Those that dump Strength? I did with my sorcerer until the party barbarian just decided to carry my bedroll and the like

[GlenSmash!]

Heavy Armor is worth it in a couple of situations, otherwise Medium is great.

When you have the proficiency and a Dex lower than 14, and never plan on increasing it.

When you have or want to have the Heavy Armor Master Feat.

[mephnick]

Exactly, but how many 5e adventurers bother with a mule to carry their stuff?

That's why I love real encumbrance. What do you do with all your stuff when you hit a dungeon? Leave the mule outside? How do you know it won't get stolen/eaten? How much gold should you carry? How do you carry the heavy gold when you're going to buy something stupid expensive? How do you know your gold laden caravan isn't going to be the target of every shady individual on the road? What do you take from the dungeon? How much is that painting actually worth? Is the way back clear?

It adds so many more decision points to the game that is completely missing if you don't follow it. Not to mention abilities like Powerful Build actually making sense. I understand people think of "ugh, math" when they think of encumbrance, but it can add a lot of depth to the game.

...I still won't track rations though!

[Naanomi]

That's why I love real encumbrance. What do you do with all your stuff when you hit a dungeon? Leave the mule outside? How do you know it won't get stolen/eaten? How much gold should you carry? How do you carry the heavy gold when you're going to buy something stupid expensive? How do you know your gold laden caravan isn't going to be the target of every shady individual on the road? What do you take from the dungeon? How much is that painting actually worth? Is the way back clear?

It adds so many more decision points to the game that is completely missing if you don't follow it. Not to mention abilities like Powerful Build actually making sense. I understand people think of "ugh, math" when they think of encumbrance, but it can add a lot of depth to the game.

...I still won't track rations though!
Ironically the weight from rations and water is largely what necessitates the mule...

[Willie the Duck]

No-Str builds in games where the DM does not enforce encumbrance, and probably not even max carry weight - otherwise, your Str 8 character rocking full plate is also likely to be rocking a 20' lower movement speed, even if they're a dwarf, plus disadvantage on attack rolls and a whole host of other things. ;)

Yes, the 8 str 8 dex nature cleric* in plate (that is a typical build for this to happen with) is a rather comical concept, helped along through careful planning (like mules or bags of holding) or DM collusion (lax encumbrance).

*As a side note, anyone else here still scratching their head about why they made nature clerics heavy armor wearers, other than that it set up the hill dwarf nature cleric with shillelagh build?


Exactly, but how many 5e adventurers bother with a mule to carry their stuff?

The kind who want to have a low strength, heavy armor character, and their DMs enforce encumbrance.


Also, you'd still always be at least lightly encumbered when wearing Full Plate even with a Str of 12, which is probably why they gave heavy armors Str requirements - for those tables not playing with the variant encumbrance rules.

I would agree. That is likely the reason.


Yeah, I mentioned that it's usually only a big deal when the encumbrance variant rule is in effect, but even without that, at 8 Str you can only carry a max of 120 lbs - something you'd already be exceeding with some of the kits I noted above.
Encumbrance is one of the huge reasons to not dump Str - not using that variant rule is part of what makes Str such an 'obvious' dump stat for many tables.

Okay, we're in agreement. It is unfair to call and attribute underpowered if you are deliberately ignoring parts of the rules that the attribute governs.



A small point. I'm saying that this is for a character that does not care about dex or str beyond armor. Getting 18 AC requires 15 points in strength while 17 is available for 14 points in dex. After meeting those thresholds neither will be increased further. So can the argument really be made that strength is somehow better?

You have constrained the terms of your argument into the exact space where the argument for strength fails. Much of the value of strength is in it giving the to-hit and damage bonuses for the best two-handed melee weapons. If you do not value that (as you have defined this instance), then of course strength is not going to be more valuable if it costs more.

Well, that's not 100% true. You get an 18 AC for 9 points or 17 AC for 7 points. So it matters what you value more, that one point of AC or those two pts (plus the side benefits, like saves and encumbrance and such).


It costs more in terms of points sk the idea thst it somehow is better for MAD builds seems strange to me.

Who is saying that? Who is saying that Str is better for MAD builds? People have been pretty good about saying which builds Str is better for, and which ones Dex is better, and then discussing the limitations of each.

[mephnick]

Ironically the weight from rations and water is largely what necessitates the mule...

Oh sorry, yeah, I count the weight in that I just say X lbs is always taken up by food and water unless you have features that mean you don't need to bring it. But I don't track actually using them or buying them. I do track ammo use and ammo weight though.

Yeah it's wishy washy, sue me. :smalltongue:

[Waterdeep Merch]

Ironically the weight from rations and water is largely what necessitates the mule...
Don't forget coins. In one game I had to buy a mule, two horses and a carriage just to carry all my money. I even had a bag of holding. It wasn't enough.

Eventually I ended up buying super fancy clothes decked in pricey jewels and wore my wealth instead. I'm lucky my DM never got any bright ideas about ruining them.

[Naanomi]

As a side note, anyone else here still scratching their head about why they made nature clerics heavy armor wearers, other than that it set up the hill dwarf nature cleric with shillelagh build?

...

Okay, we're in agreement. It is unfair to call and attribute underpowered if you are deliberately ignoring parts of the rules that the attribute governs.
To further differentiate from the thematically similar Druid I suspect

As for the later point, note that the 'hard to manage' version is an optional rule; and one not adopted by AL. I notice a lot of tables playing by 'ALish' rules even if they are not 'sanctioned games'

If we are taking about wagons and wagons of loot; a very strong charter isn't going to solve that problem. Most of my characters don't care too much about amassing gold; and if they do they'd rather have it well invested in property or in a secureish vault than on the road! I don't do a lot of 'magic mart' playing though, so their is perhaps less need to has that much cash on hand

[mephnick]

Don't forget coins. In one game I had to buy a mule, two horses and a carriage just to carry all my money. I even had a bag of holding. It wasn't enough.

Eventually I ended up buying super fancy clothes decked in pricey jewels and wore my wealth instead.

Yeah, smart players will eventually trade those gold coins for gems. But before they figure it out it's like "....damn gold weighs a lot"

[Waterdeep Merch]

Yeah, smart players will eventually trade those gold coins for gems. But before they figure it out it's like "....damn gold weighs a lot"
The DM in question was extra stingy about what we could buy where. We spent half the game in the boonies, where just the flash of gold was more than most NPC's had ever seen. Too bad they never considered dungeon delving.

[Ovarwa]

It can be.

If you want to use melee weapons with the most damage, or almost as much damage plus reach, you are looking squarely at a Strength build. Medium armor kind of requires a Dex 14, at a cost of 5 build points, but you can do just fine with Dex 10; Dex 8 is also possible for the truly constrained. Light armor requires a full commitment to Dex.

Variant Humans *love* heavy armor, since they can take Heavy Armor Mastery at level 1, when it does the most good.

Most classes are not designed around Str, so of course Heavy Armor sucks for most characters.

Anyway,

Ken

[ZorroGames]

It can be.

If you want to use melee weapons with the most damage, or almost as much damage plus reach, you are looking squarely at a Strength build. Medium armor kind of requires a Dex 14, at a cost of 5 build points, but you can do just fine with Dex 10; Dex 8 is also possible for the truly constrained. Light armor requires a full commitment to Dex.

Variant Humans *love* heavy armor, since they can take Heavy Armor Mastery at level 1, when it does the most good.

Most classes are not designed around Str, so of course Heavy Armor sucks for most characters.

Anyway,

Ken

From what I can see (still new to 5th) ST high and DE low build works best with Heavy armor, ST low and DE high probably Light armor and missile/finesse weaponry. Medium armor is good (sometimes extremely good) but I think it is dependent on what your goal/build looks like.

[Theodoxus]

All depends on what you find... My life cleric wore half-plate, because of a 12 Strength. He also had an 18 Dex, so it wasn't worth the loss of speed for an extra point of AC. However, he was the only one capable of wearing heavy armor when we found a +1 suit of adamantine plate. You can bet your boots he was running around for the rest of the campaign with a 20' speed (also searching for Gauntlets of Ogre power or a belt of giant strength, to no avail).

I'm gonna be playing a Bard 1/Cleric (Life) 1 halfling starting Monday. He's got a 10 strength... Medium armor is just fine (and a good sight better than just light with no shield he'd of been saddled with without the cleric dip.) Whether a 15' speed is worth adamantine plate is debatable... but probably not... clerics need some mobility ;)

[MeeposFire]

One thing to consider is that heavy armor is especially useful for a melee cleric over even other melee classes since using medium armor and if you want to use most iconic cleric weapons makes you very MAD.

You need to get high wis, str, and you want good con but then you need to invest into a pretty good dex just to keep AC where you need it. Heavy armor allows you to just bring you down to the normal wis/str/con. Caster clerics (or clerics that can use their wisdom score in melee) can drop str and are much easier to have a decent dex score for medium armor.

[MaxWilson]

So I've been going over a lot of guides lately, and something I've noticed, particularly in cleric guides, is the value assigned to heavy armor proficiency from those domains. I always thought that all things being equal, heavy armor isn't worth it. Am I wrong?

Basically unless you're running an athletics/grappler build or a polearm/gwf build, you're only getting +1 to AC, at the cost of weaker dexterity saves.

So I'd like to ask those reading. If you are playing a character who uses spells to attack, and does not care about weapons, would you choose medium or heavy armor?

I'm curious what everyone's opinions are from a purely defensive standpoint.

It's nice for spellcasters who aren't planning on putting any ASIs into physical attributes. Let's say you roll something puny like Str 8 Dex 8 Con 10 Int 9 Wis 13 Cha 14. If you just go straight Warlock or Sorlock, you'll have AC 13 (Mage Armor) -1 (Dex) = AC 12. But if you take a single level in Life Cleric at 1st or 2nd level, your AC goes from 12 => 18 (chain mail + shield) and eventually to 20 (plate armor, whenever you get it, which could be quite early). Now consider that you're not planning on front-lining, so most things that target you will either be ranged attacks or will have to Dash past the front line to get you--which means that you can afford to drop prone against ranged attacks to give them disadvantage. Since disadvantage has an impact proportional to the normal hit chance, that makes a high AC even MORE valuable to you than otherwise: its effect is basically squared.

To put this in concrete terms, when you fight a dozen goblins, an AC 12 sorlock will take 45 points of damage from 12 shortbow attacks. A prone AC 12 Sorlock will take 27 points of damage. An AC 18 sorloc(leric) will take 25.20 points of damage; a prone AC 18 sorloc(leric) will take 8.19. An AC 20 Sorloc(leric) will take 18.60 points of damage; a prone AC 20 sorloc(leric) will take 4.23 points of damage. That's an order of magnitude less damage than the original sorlock; it's enough reduction for the front-liners to basically not have to worry about you at all while they take their time and kill the goblins. You're not squishy at all, any more, which means that everyone else can devote less attention to protecting you and more attention to killing goblins quickly.

For a warrior-first build that's going to invest heavily in AC, heavy armor is much less of a big deal. If I'm playing a Sharpshooter fighter or fighter/rogue, I'm perfectly happy relying primarily on Mage Armor and Dex and a shield (plus Shield) on the rare occasions when I need to act as a tank; for this case, AC 13 (Mage Armor) + 5 (Dex) + 2 (optional shield) + 5 (optional Shield) = 18-25 is just fine. Yes, I could have +1 to AC by switching to plate armor, at the cost of some mobility, but it's not a big enough deal to make me want to do it in anything but an extreme case (defending an orphanage against a zombie horde, and I'm all out of arrows) where plate armor is available and mobility doesn't matter anyway.

TL;DR heavy armor is nice because it's cheap in ASIs.

[MaxWilson]

All depends on what you find... My life cleric wore half-plate, because of a 12 Strength. He also had an 18 Dex, so it wasn't worth the loss of speed for an extra point of AC. However, he was the only one capable of wearing heavy armor when we found a +1 suit of adamantine plate. You can bet your boots he was running around for the rest of the campaign with a 20' speed (also searching for Gauntlets of Ogre power or a belt of giant strength, to no avail).

I'm gonna be playing a Bard 1/Cleric (Life) 1 halfling starting Monday. He's got a 10 strength... Medium armor is just fine (and a good sight better than just light with no shield he'd of been saddled with without the cleric dip.) Whether a 15' speed is worth adamantine plate is debatable... but probably not... clerics need some mobility ;)

See if you can get a Medium-sized mount like a donkey. You may have to invest in Mounted Combatant at some point to keep it alive, but mounts are really nice for mobility.

[Vogonjeltz]

So I've been going over a lot of guides lately, and something I've noticed, particularly in cleric guides, is the value assigned to heavy armor proficiency from those domains. I always thought that all things being equal, heavy armor isn't worth it. Am I wrong?

Basically unless you're running an athletics/grappler build or a polearm/gwf build, you're only getting +1 to AC, at the cost of weaker dexterity saves.

So I'd like to ask those reading. If you are playing a character who uses spells to attack, and does not care about weapons, would you choose medium or heavy armor?

I'm curious what everyone's opinions are from a purely defensive standpoint.

Here's the thing. Next time you play, make a note of the number of Dexterity saves you make, along with (if you know the cause) the penalty for failure vs success.

Then do the exact same thing with melee attacks.

Thinking of it in those terms, it seems intuitive to say that you're going to need the armor far more often than you'd ever need one of six different saving throws.

I'd also note that additional strength increases carry weight (important for lugging around gear and treasure), increases jumping distances, and provides both an offensive and defensive benefit in regards to Athletics. So, if you want to just pick one, and have access to heavy armor, I'd make it Strength. Dexterity would be more useful if you were using ranged weapons to attack instead of spells.

But when you are using spells and have heavy armor, Dexterity really does become a liability to invest in.


It depends. For example, half plate is ac15+dex(max2)=17, while plate is a flat ac18. getting 14 dex is fairly trivial, but say a druid with magical plate still has 18 ac even when wildshaped into a 10 dex critter instead of 15

Wildshape subsumes any gear that can't be worn by the beast (or drops it to the ground, player choice on that), which would include plate body armor shaped for a humanoid body.

[Garresh]

Here's the thing. Next time you play, make a note of the number of Dexterity saves you make, along with (if you know the cause) the penalty for failure vs success.

Then do the exact same thing with melee attacks.

Thinking of it in those terms, it seems intuitive to say that you're going to need the armor far more often than you'd ever need one of six different saving throws.

I'd also note that additional strength increases carry weight (important for lugging around gear and treasure), increases jumping distances, and provides both an offensive and defensive benefit in regards to Athletics. So, if you want to just pick one, and have access to heavy armor, I'd make it Strength. Dexterity would be more useful if you were using ranged weapons to attack instead of spells.

But when you are using spells and have heavy armor, Dexterity really does become a liability to invest in.



Wildshape subsumes any gear that can't be worn by the beast (or drops it to the ground, player choice on that), which would include plate body armor shaped for a humanoid body.

That might be a good way of thinking about it, but I'm not sure it's a perfect mindset. Failed dex saves tend to hurt harder than merely getting hit one more time. A comparison of a dragon's breath weapon vs another attack is a good example. Also, the difference is -1 AC for +3 to dex saves AND initiative rolls, assuming you spend the same number of points in dex as you would in strength. Again, this assumes putting 14-15 in for armor then ignoring it for casting stat.

So the question then becomes, is acting faster in combat and not getting screwed by high damage dex saves worth getting hit more often? And it's not an easy equivalence to make, due to differing rates and whatnot.

[djreynolds]

Most dex saves are damage focused. Absorb elements will half this. But its damage.

And especially now with skills as feats, a fighter can grab brawny and not worry about a rogue dip for expertise in athletics.

A paladin/bard with shield master is pretty tough.

And classes that have cantrips do not need dexterity for ranged engagements, so a cleric or eldritch knight do not need a crossbow or anything if their casting stat is reasonable

So IMO, paladins, melee fighters, clerics can reliably dump dex if they have the means to heal and/or mitigate damage.

20AC with full plate is really tough to hit, and then add in shield of faith, the shield spell, really tough to hit