5e Adult White Dragon

[supremerulerguy]

Hello, I am a DM who just started DMing a custom campaign (5e) and I have a question. I plan on having the Party fight an Adult White Dragon in its lair as a sort of Disc One Final Boss. What level should the party be when they fight it? The Party will consist of a DragonBorn Oath of Ancients Paladin, a Homebrew Eidolon Beast Mastery Ranger, a tiefling Homebrew Undead pact Warlock, and a Tabaxi Lore Bard.

[Lord Il Palazzo]

Kobold Fight Club (https://kobold.club/fight/#/encounter-builder) is a great resource for this kind of thing. You can pick how many characters of what levels you have and what monsters you want to put them up against and it will tell you the experience and difficulty of the encounter your looking at by the encounter building guidelines in the DMG.

In this case, fighting an Adult White Dragon would be "deadly" for any four-man party 9th level or below, "hard" for a party of level 10 or 11, "medium" for a party of level 12, 13 or 14 and "easy" for a party above that. I've found that the parties I've DMed usually pull through fights a little above their weight class so I'd probably aim for level 9 or 10.

[MrStabby]

It depends...
does the party have any magic items?
how rested will the party be?
how difficult is your game supposed to be?
Will the party be able to prepare?

Level 9 would be tough, especially given lack of flying/range in the party. Level 10 could work if the party has access to appropriate magic items.

Otherwise I use CR-2 for a tough fight on an easy game.

[Armored Walrus]

Level 9 would be tough, especially given lack of flying/range in the party.

Well, level 9 is a "deadly" encounter. Although I wouldn't characterize a party with a warlock, a ranger, and a bard as "lacking range".

@ OP, by the time your party gets to 9th level, you'll have a pretty good idea whether they can tackle this, I think. I know the party in the campaign I DM punches well above their weight, and can face an encounter that KFC/the DMG consider "deadly" without too much trouble.

That being said, we haven't gotten up to high enough level for me to be using creatures that have legendary actions and legendary saves, so the few big boss battles we've had against a single, higher CR creature, have been examples of how having more actions than your enemy can really trivialize a fight.

I think you're safe assuming you won't even consider the fight until they reach level 9, and see how well the party works at that point.

EDIT: If you're just starting the campaign now, and they are all level 1 still, then you are thinking waaayyy too far ahead. They will derail or you will rethink nearly every aspect of your storyline by then.

[supremerulerguy]

It depends...
does the party have any magic items?
how rested will the party be?
how difficult is your game supposed to be?
Will the party be able to prepare?

Level 9 would be tough, especially given lack of flying/range in the party. Level 10 could work if the party has access to appropriate magic items.

Otherwise I use CR-2 for a tough fight on an easy game.

The party will have some Magic Items. The Paladin might have a nice Longsword, The party will have random Wondrous Items, and probably will all have Cold Resistance at that point.

The Dragon will probably be at the end of a large Ice Castle Dungeon, but they will have a chance for a short rest before the Boss.

Overall the game will likely be moderately difficult, but this Dragon is meant to be Hard/deadly.

The party will know that it is a powerful dragon with breath that will freeze the piss in your bladder (actual line I plan on using) so they will try to obtain Frost resistance. Maybe n Arrow of Dragon Slaying.

The party has no flying, but they have some range. The Beast Master will have it to an extent, but their pet won't. The Warlock will, but not incredibly powerful range, and the Bard might, depending on what spells he choses for Magical Secrets.

SO far Level 9 is seeming like the best time to do it, maybe making them Level 10 as a reward for killing the Dragon.

[KorvinStarmast]

CR 13, how tough do you want this fight to be?

Party level 10-11 sounds like a good fight, but make sure the play the dragon as "cornered rat" and pull out all of the stops. Use all of its abilities to the max. (And potentially, you could make it a spell using dragon per the DMG, but that's optional).

Tough dragon fights feel like a great accomplishment, or should anyway.

NVM, just saw your answer: tough level 9 fight, please tell us how it goes!
(A good dragon fight story is usually fun to read)

[supremerulerguy]

If you're just starting the campaign now, and they are all level 1 still, then you are thinking waaayyy too far ahead. They will derail or you will rethink nearly every aspect of your storyline by then.

Fair enough, I currently have until level 5 mostly planned out. I want to decide when the party will fight the adult white dragon for story pacing reasons as many of the bosses they will fight before it directly or indirectly serve the dragon.

[supremerulerguy]

CR 13, how tough do you want this fight to be?

Party level 10-11 sounds like a good fight, but make sure the play the dragon as "cornered rat" and pull out all of the stops. Use all of its abilities to the max. (And potentially, you could make it a spell using dragon per the DMG, but that's optional).

Tough dragon fights feel like a great accomplishment, or should anyway.

This definitely should feel like a great accomplishment, seeing as the Dragon will have been the Big Bad up until this point. Sadly if I used the DMG spell using Dragon Rule, it will only get 1 spell I think. WHat would be a good spell for it to use?

[Armored Walrus]

It's not a bad idea to only give it one spell anyway. You have enough options to think about already when you run this.

I would be perverse and give it fireball, since the party will all be prepared with cold resistance. ;)

Just a note, if you wait until level 10, you then have the option to add a couple mooks to the fight. If you or your players would find that more interesting, then it's worth delaying. It also allows you to fine tune a bit more mid-battle. The mooks can be a bit smarter if it looks like the players are going to wash the floor with them, or fairly dumb if it looks like the party might be overwhelmed.

[KorvinStarmast]

This definitely should feel like a great accomplishment, seeing as the Dragon will have been the Big Bad up until this point. Sadly if I used the DMG spell using Dragon Rule, it will only get 1 spell I think. WHat would be a good spell for it to use? I would recommend a crowd control type of spell, preferably slow, or a mind / will influencing spell.

Form the Sorcerer Spell list (Which IMO is where Dragon spells ought to come from, seeing as that's where draconic sorcerers come from) I've paired it down to some choices, with my faves in bold. The theme is mental domination or suggestion (sort of like fear) or something with ice, snow, slow, cold ...
Pick from:
2nd Level
Suggestion (Similar to the dragon's ability to cause fear and otherwise mess with people's minds)
3rd Level
Hypnotic Pattern
Protection from Energy
Sleet Storm
Slow
4th Level
Confusion
Dominate
Ice Storm
5th Level
Dominate Person
Hold Monster
Wall of Stone (Reskinned as Wall of Ice)
6th Level
Mass Suggestion
True Seeing
7th Level (Might be too powerful for an Int 8 creature)
Reverse Gravity
8th Level (Might be too powerful for an Int 8 creature)
Earthquake (in lair)
Power Word Stun
9th Level
None

[supremerulerguy]

It's not a bad idea to only give it one spell anyway. You have enough options to think about already when you run this.

I would be perverse and give it fireball, since the party will all be prepared with cold resistance. ;)

Just a note, if you wait until level 10, you then have the option to add a couple mooks to the fight. If you or your players would find that more interesting, then it's worth delaying. It also allows you to fine tune a bit more mid-battle. The mooks can be a bit smarter if it looks like the players are going to wash the floor with them, or fairly dumb if it looks like the party might be overwhelmed.

Those are some great ideas, I'll keep them in mind when I do get around to making the Dragon. Thanks Walrus.

[UnwiseAlistair]

This definitely should feel like a great accomplishment, seeing as the Dragon will have been the Big Bad up until this point. Sadly if I used the DMG spell using Dragon Rule, it will only get 1 spell I think. WHat would be a good spell for it to use?

I'm going to be a sadistic CE DM and say haste.

[supremerulerguy]

I'm going to be a sadistic CE DM and say haste.

I like the way you think.

[Lord Il Palazzo]

The party will have some Magic Items. The Paladin might have a nice Longsword, The party will have random Wondrous Items, and probably will all have Cold Resistance at that point.I personally wouldn't give the whole party cold resistance unless they knew the fight was coming and went out of their way to prepare and find ways to resist cold and even then I probably would make it pretty challenging to get resistance for everyone (maybe one or two magic items and then force them to take spells or come up with other plans/methods of protecting themselves). Handing all the players resistance to one of the big boss's most potent offenses just doesn't sit well with me. It removes (or at least significantly hampers) a threat that the DM (and the dragon, in-character) should be able to rely on to make the fight challenging and it keeps your players from having to work to mitigate/neutralize that threat (including by the tactics they use, spells the prepare and by planning and seeking out defenses beforehand) which takes some of the coolness out of giving them a "We beat a dragon!" story. Maybe it's just me...

Edit: Another thought is to make at least some of their cold resistance concentration based, like a ring that allows them to cast Protection from Energy X times per day. Having to decide who gets that protection and to work to keep the concentration up (and decide if it's worth sacrificing another concentration spell they could be using) would add a more entertaining element to the fight than just walking in knowing the dragon's breath will only deal half damage.

[supremerulerguy]

I personally wouldn't give the whole party cold resistance unless they knew the fight was coming and went out of their way to prepare and find ways to resist cold and even then I probably would make it pretty challenging to get resistance for everyone. Handing all the players resistance to one of the big boss's most potent offenses just doesn't sit well with me. It removes (or at least significantly hampers) a threat that the DM (and the dragon, in-character) should be able to rely on to make the fight challenging and it keeps your players from having to work to mitigate/neutralize that threat (including by the tactics they use, spells the prepare and by planning and seeking out defenses beforehand) which takes some of the coolness out of giving them a "We beat a dragon!" story. Maybe it's just me...

That's fair, but the Paladin is a Silver Dragonborn so he will have Cold Resistance, and 2 members of the party will have access to Protection from energy at that point. This is why I plan on giving the Dragon a powerful Fire or Lightning spell though, to surprise the party.

The whole party won't have Cold resistance now unless two people use Protection from energy. I'll only drop one magic Item that will give cold resistance into the game. That should keep the Frost Breath a threat as it can nearly one-shot somebody.

[mephnick]

I'm going to be a sadistic CE DM and say haste.

I say Hallucinatory Terrain for some fun. No, no, this isn't a snow field full of crevasses leading to frigid water, it's a wide, smooth stone plateau. Please run straight at me.

[Lord Il Palazzo]

That's fair, but the Paladin is a Silver Dragonborn so he will have Cold Resistance, and 2 members of the party will have access to Protection from energy at that point. This is why I plan on giving the Dragon a powerful Fire or Lightning spell though, to surprise the party.

The whole party won't have Cold resistance now unless two people use Protection from energy. I'll only drop one magic Item that will give cold resistance into the game. That should keep the Frost Breath a threat as it can nearly one-shot somebody.That's a fair way to go about it. Like I said, I think having at least a part of the party's resistance tied to concentration makes this a much more interesting fight.

I ran a green dragon fight back in 3.5 where the party's one druid managed to give most of the party immunity to acid damage (which green dragon breath was back then) for several rounds at the start of the fight (since this was in the days before concentration largely kept casters from having multiple castings of the same spell active). It definitely took a lot of the danger (and excitement) out of the fight, in my opinion.

[mythossanta]

My biggest advice is make sure the battlefield is interesting. Use icicles for example, as cover and as traps. You might want to throw out a few minions as well, as otherwise the dragon is going to get focus down and die. As a final note try and make it cheese proof, ie. make sure they have to fight it and can't just kite or pot-shot it.

[MrWesson22]

I'd give it hypnotic pattern. That should make for some fun.

[MrStabby]

Shatter might be a fun spell to cave the roof in on the party.

[imanidiot]

Hello, I am a DM who just started DMing a custom campaign (5e) and I have a question. I plan on having the Party fight an Adult White Dragon in its lair as a sort of Disc One Final Boss. What level should the party be when they fight it? The Party will consist of a DragonBorn Oath of Ancients Paladin, a Homebrew Eidolon Beast Mastery Ranger, a tiefling Homebrew Undead pact Warlock, and a Tabaxi Lore Bard.

The adventure I'm running now uses a young red dragon in the same capacity at level 6. Now an adult is going to have legendary stuff to offset action advantage. So is just noticed that this isn't helpful at all.

[Zardnaar]

Alter self make it appear red or whatever

[Armored Walrus]

So is just noticed that this isn't helpful at all.

Heh, I was going to say that, but decided to hold my tongue. ;)

Although it does raise the point, OP, that you could scheduled your boss fight earlier in the campaign, and use a young dragon with mooks. So you really have a pretty good level slider you can use to drop that sucker in whenever you need it.

[supremerulerguy]

I could schedule it earlier, but I need the boss to be a White Dragon and I have things fro the adventurers to do already at level 5 so I think that an Adult White Dragon will fit best for the point in the Story that I want. The boss will be at level 9, and have a spell meant to surprise the adventurers. It will attempt to spend most of the fight flying, swooping down only to attack but not staying grounded for too long. It can be brought to the ground permanently by environmental means however. Half of the party will have Cold resistance while the other half will only have it depending on if the Paladin and the Ranger use Protection from Energy. How does this sound?

[Errow]

Sounds good! I had my players fight an adult white dragon as the third wave of a three-wave fight and they absolutely annihilated it. 6 players @level 10, though.

Two other believable possibilities if you're not finding spells you like: give it a magic item instead, like a Necklace of Fireballs. Another thing would be to homebrew a surprising lair action that suits whatever battleground you have planned. Huge icicles growing out of the ground, a Sleet Storm kind of effect, mini earthquakes, etc.

[Potato_Priest]

My players killed one at lvl 8, but they were fully rested and it pretty much came down to a coin toss.

If the players encounter it in a confined space (or there's lots of cover available), level 8 ought to be fine, but if they have to fight in a big field they are going to need to be higher level.

Having a character that's resistant to cold damage would significantly improve their chances.

[Armored Walrus]

How does this sound?

The advantage of fighting it outside is that if they manage to damage it sufficiently, but the fight is still going against them, the dragon can, within character, choose to flee rather than risk death just to wipe the party out. Or at the very least, can knock them all out and be on its way, allowing the characters to come to. If they fight it in its lair and get wiped, it strains credulity that they'd be allowed to live, at least, not in an unenslaved state.

That being said, I think you've got a good encounter put together. I think most parties punch above the encounter building guidelines, especially since you are allowing them some mitigating factors before they get into the fight.

[LuccMa]

Hello there :)

While the encounter sounds good on one hand, i see one big problem: Why would an experienced, 100+ years old, powerful dragon with a castle and minions fight the group alone?
If its his ice castle he probably knows that there are intruders. Short Rest? Nope.
If he knows there is a fight coming, he wont fight in a cavern. He flies out of reach in the open until his breath attack is back and only then he comes back down for the next round of attacks and concentrates on the guy with the bow and the one in robes with a staff.

The problem with dragon encounters is that dragons arent just stat-blocks from the monster manual but incredibly old, experienced and dangerous foes. Not because they have legendary resistance or a breath attack but because they know how to **** up adventurers. Swarm them with minions and fly down to finish those pesky humans. If that dwarven barbarian with his Greataxe of Dragonslaying can get a hit on this dragon, its doing it really, really wrong.

Now i understand that you want that dragon to be the boss fight and that is fine. But dont tune down the dragon so he can be beat - that would hurt the reputation of all dragons! If your players hear that theres a dragon somewhere in the area, they should be scared, regardless of their lvl.

So: Make the dragon hard. Way too hard for your group to beat. Alone. Whenever my group is going to fight something they have no chance of beating i dont weaken the encounter (its just not authentic) but i make sure that my players know that this fight is probably not what they want to do without help. So they prepare and start to recruit allies.

This would be an awesome chance to introduce some important ally or organisation you want to use later in your campaign. They help your players to defeat the evil dragon and you have a connection for later on. Or even better: Some villain acts like an ally and actually helps your players. They like him and will be even more shocked if "Friendly Mage Bob" is later revealed to have enslaved their favorite tavern or whatever.
It's important to let the NPCs help your players, though, not the other way around. Giving them a lvl 20 Wizard who takes care of the dragon while your party watches is boring. Make it engaging, maybe your players have to give something important to them up so they actually get the help they want/need.

tldr: If your dragon acts intelligently (like a dragon should) and uses his advantages (flight, minions, home terrain, etc.) your group will most likely die. Dont weaken the dragon or make him stupid. Make your players recruit allies and use that connection for adventures later on.

On a personal note: My lvl 8/9 players are currently preparing to fight a white dragon who is between young and adult and they are scared as ****. They want to prepare as much as possible, get as many allies to come with them and so on and they know: If they show up without a plan, they most likely die. And if they let the hurt dragon escape it will come back in 100 years and take revenge on their grandchildren.
Make Dragons great again! :D

edit: watch the Counter Monkey - Circle Strafe video from noah antwiler on youtube

[Zardnaar]

I had a 5 person party beat one at level 7.

HotDQ has one for level 7 PCs as well. I actually used that encounter in a different adventure. Parrty had a sharpshooter ranger+ Battlemaster fighter though+ all dex based with ranged weapons.

[Finieous]

I think it comes down to the lair and how you play the dragon. I had one (plus some frozen dead minions) defeat a party of six double-digit level PCs...twice.

The lair was multiple connected ice caves, with large fissures scattered around these caverns that opened into an even more massive cavern below with an icy underground river running through it. The dragon was able to use burrow, swim and fly speeds for a great deal of mobility and cover from PC attacks.

It was also able to use it's Wall of Ice lair action to split the party in different caverns temporarily. The freezing fog lair action can be devastating, because it heavily obscures the area and the dragon has blindsight.

The dragon used its lair actions and hit-and-run tactics to isolate and focus on singles and pairs, then disappear back into the ice, down into the lower cavern, or into the icy river. It was happy to spend turns maneuvering out of sight, waiting for its breath to recharge.

It only has AC 18 and 200 hit points, so if it just plops down and dukes it out, expect it to last a couple rounds. Give it the right lair (which it's had a couple hundred years to find) and a will to survive, and it can be way more difficult than "CR 13."

[Scripten]

-snip-

The argument could be made that a white dragon's low INT score would justify them to be unprepared and bestial. An adult only has an INT score of 8, putting them only barely above the average Orc.

[Azgeroth]

i was in a party of 5 against a white dragon (HotDQ), think it was lvl 8 - 10? we were elemental monk, evoker wizard, vengance paladin, fighter/sorc, assasin rogue.

it was a pretty intense fight, but we won out without anyone going down.

however, we were a very DPR heavy group, im not sure how your group performs but without a rogue or wizard i dont think your guys (especially being only 4) will find it as easy.

as a note, white dragons are the most primal (dumbest) so spell casting might not be relevant, spell casting servants though, thats a thing, but as people have pointed out the dragon itself is only part of it, where is the dragon, how are they getting to the dragon, what provisions do the party/dragon have?

are they going to have to fight there way to it?

as an example, we had to work through some tunnels with alot of kobolds in them, we slaughtered most and kept some alive as guides so we knew the best route to the dragon, and where the rest of the nasties in the dungeon were. then killed them. meaning we could meet the dragon on our terms, and didnt expend much prior to that fight. (accept the rogue stole some gold that had been enchanted/cursed so the dragon not only knew it was stolen, but the thief was headed to the dragon, negating our suprise..)

[LuccMa]

The argument could be made that a white dragon's low INT score would justify them to be unprepared and bestial. An adult only has an INT score of 8, putting them only barely above the average Orc.

An INT score of 8 does not mean you're dumb. But its true: White Dragons are the most bestial - meaning they heavily rely on instinct. If you live 100+ years you've seen your share of fights and probably developed the right instincts.
Int 8 does not mean a dragon gets in reach of your fighter. It still knows the best way to fight - thats what it does. For 100 years.
It might not solve complex mathematical functions but it will beat. your. ass. up.

Never should a DM play a dragon in a way that makes it beatable. The group has to adjust to the dragon to beat it or drive it away. If they dont they die. Simple.

[Finieous]

Even actual beasts have sophisticated predation and defensive strategies. Add consciousness -- even if Int is a dump stat -- and it's fair to say an adult white dragon should be extremely cunning when it comes to defending itself, its lair and its hoard.

[Scripten]

An INT score of 8 does not mean you're dumb. But its true: White Dragons are the most bestial - meaning they heavily rely on instinct. If you live 100+ years you've seen your share of fights and probably developed the right instincts.
Int 8 does not mean a dragon gets in reach of your fighter. It still knows the best way to fight - thats what it does. For 100 years.
It might not solve complex mathematical functions but it will beat. your. ass. up.

Never should a DM play a dragon in a way that makes it beatable. The group has to adjust to the dragon to beat it or drive it away. If they dont they die. Simple.

Absolutely true, reflected in the WIS score of 12, which is adequate for a cunning sentient animal. I just recently ran my party through the territory of an adult White Dragon and an Abominable Yeti who were fighting over territory. Seeing as the party is currently level 5, it was a suitably terrifying experience even though the dragon's motivations were bestial and its attention was elsewhere. Several characters only barely scraped by, despite them merely being caught in the crossfire. (The Cleric looked back while they were riding away and saw it looking directly at him, which left an impression.) White Dragons are great, cunning, and scary.

However, I don't think that they would do much in the way of organizing minions or creating contingency plans. They might leave sufficiently deferential/useful kobolds alive in their lair, but I can't see one being more creative than stalking/hunting the party and using the terrain to its advantage.