[3.5] Immortality?

[Thurbane]

Rather than keep bumping the previous thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?527570), I'll post this here.

Is there a RAW definition of immortality in 3E?

I mean, there is a generally accepted meaning of "cannot die from aging", but is the definition nailed down anywhere?

The closest I can find is this:


Immortality
All deities (even those of rank 0) are naturally immortal and cannot die from natural causes. Deities do not age, and they do not need to eat, sleep, or breathe. The only way for a deity to die is through special circumstances, usually by being slain in magical or physical combat. Deities of rank 1 or higher are not subject to death from massive damage.

Cheers - T

[Bronk]

Immortality is mentioned in core, but only in explicitly in relation to Celestials, by process of elimination for Fiends, and to mention that elves are definitely not immortal.

I think that deity specific definition might be the best you're able to get... this might be one of those times where they're just going with the dictionary definition as the default.

[Jowgen]

The nature of immortality is very much left open. The fey feature (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fey/20030411a) articles discuss different possibilities on how immortality can work rule-wise, but that's about it.

[martixy]

It's defined in the dictionary.

D&D doesn't redefine the entire english language to make game text work as rules.

[Thurbane]

It's defined in the dictionary.

D&D doesn't redefine the entire english language to make game text work as rules.

The dictionary definition doesn't work as well in D&D though. The "real world" definition does not take into account the myriad of special attacks and other ways a character might die or suffer harm in a D&D setting.

Let's take a look at the Highlander (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highlander_(film)) version of immortality: does not age and cannot be killed by physical harm other than being beheaded (and depending on the exact version, only if beheaded by another immortal). Woks in a real world setting, right? So lets Plane Shift him to Greyhawk: is he immune to death by negative levels? What happens if he fails a save vs Disintegrate? Is he immune to a Sphere of Annihilation?

[Rhyltran]

The dictionary definition doesn't work as well in D&D though. The "real world" definition does not take into account the myriad of special attacks and other ways a character might die or suffer harm in a D&D setting.

Let's take a look at the Highlander (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highlander_(film)) version of immortality: does not age and cannot be killed by physical harm other than being beheaded (and depending on the exact version, only if beheaded by another immortal). Woks in a real world setting, right? So lets Plane Shift him to Greyhawk: is he immune to death by negative levels? What happens if he fails a save vs Disintegrate? Is he immune to a Sphere of Annihilation?

Immortality is being immune to age. To the person who mentioned elves that's because in D&D Elves do die of old age. They're not like LOTR elves.

Vampires are immortal.

Liches are also immortal.

Demons are immortal.

Angels are immortal.

Fey are immortal.

Most forms of undead period are immortal.

Kissed by the ages also makes you effectively immortal so long as you have the spell/object on you at all times. Can still be killed by normal means but you are immune to age.

[Bronk]

Immortality is being immune to age. To the person who mentioned elves that's because in D&D Elves do die of old age. They're not like LOTR elves.

Vampires are immortal.

Liches are also immortal.

Demons are immortal.

Angels are immortal.

Fey are immortal.

Most forms of undead period are immortal.

Kissed by the ages also makes you effectively immortal so long as you have the spell/object on you at all times. Can still be killed by normal means but you are immune to age.

I would also classify generalized D&D immortality as agelessness. I agree with most of your list except for the fey... some definitely are, some definitely aren't.

(The elf example comes from the DMG, p171, in a section detailing what changes not to make to the setting.)

[ShurikVch]

Lords of Madness:
Immortality (Ex): A silthilar does not age, nor can it be harmed by effects that cause magical aging.

[Rhyltran]

I would also classify generalized D&D immortality as agelessness. I agree with most of your list except for the fey... some definitely are, some definitely aren't.

(The elf example comes from the DMG, p171, in a section detailing what changes not to make to the setting.)

You're correct about the fey and I figured but felt like clarifying.

[Thurbane]

Lords of Madness:

Immortality (Ex): A silthilar does not age, nor can it be harmed by effects that cause magical aging.

Thank you, that's exactly the kind of thing I am looking for!


Immortality is being immune to age. To the person who mentioned elves that's because in D&D Elves do die of old age. They're not like LOTR elves.

Vampires are immortal.

Liches are also immortal.

Demons are immortal.

Angels are immortal.

Fey are immortal.

Most forms of undead period are immortal.

Kissed by the ages also makes you effectively immortal so long as you have the spell/object on you at all times. Can still be killed by normal means but you are immune to age.

Is there citations for these, or are you applying RAI?

I've not looked at that particular feat, that might also be helpful.

[Caelestion]

Personally, I would define the inability to age as agelessness, not immortality (which is the classical inability to die).

Cerilian Elves (from the 2nd Edition Birthright setting) are explicitly mentioned as immortal, not being susceptible to ageing or disease and not needing to sleep, but just like Tolkien's Elves, they can still fall in battle.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Personally, I would define the inability to age as agelessness, not immortality (which is the classical inability to die).
I'd say the inability to age is a form of immortality.

Aging is (=can be defined as) the accumulation of irreversable damage to the metabolic system caused by essential metabolic processes. That is, it's the permanent damage you sustain over time as part of your standard operation*. The inability to age amounts to one thing: a metabolic system that does not cause irreversable damage to itself under standard operation, either by making it reversable, or by not suffering damage at all.

If you don't accumulate damage as part of standard operation, you don't suffer increased mortality from this damage. You are biological immortal if there is no effect of your age on your chance to die; your forty-year-old self and your thousand-year-old self have the same chance to survive. Since your ageless thousand-year-old self has the same metabolism as the forty-year-old self, you would expect the same mortality. Hence, barring a non-aging mechanism that increases mortality with age, agelessness makes you biologically immortal.

Of course, there's still a chance to die from accident or injury. If you have a 1% chance to die each year, you have a 50% chance to die in the next 70 years. For immortality to be actually notable, you may need a very high survival rate.




*For example, Formula 1 engines are only designed to last a few races. You might even say: if they don't break, you haven't been using them properly.

[Caelestion]

I'm aware of what telomerase does in the real world, but in D&D terms, maximum age is still a thing (unless explicitly told otherwise), so even if you still have the complexion of a 20-something, you are still fated to keel over and die upon hitting your personal Hayflick limit (your max age).

[ExLibrisMortis]

I'm aware of what telomerase does in the real world, but in D&D terms, maximum age is still a thing (unless explicitly told otherwise), so even if you still have the complexion of a 20-something, you are still fated to keel over and die upon hitting your personal Hayflick limit (your max age).
Um, that's not what I said. At all.

[Caelestion]

And your point is?

[Rhyltran]

Thank you, that's exactly the kind of thing I am looking for!



Is there citations for these, or are you applying RAI?

I've not looked at that particular feat, that might also be helpful.

Not RAI. They don't age.

[ExLibrisMortis]

And your point is?
You said that 'inability to age' is 'agelessness', not 'immortality'. I argued that agelessness is a subcategory of immortality.

[Caelestion]

Generally speaking, yes, I'd agree with you. However, D&D is (for whatever reason) simply different. You need look no further than the monk for an example of dying of old age, despite not feeling or showing its effects. The Chosen of Bane also has that issue, unlike the Cloud Anchorite, which is quite the reverse - they have no maximum age and cannot die of old age, but still move through the age categories appropriately.

[Thurbane]

Not RAI. They don't age.

Citations please.

[Caelestion]

Citations please.

Vampires and liches are undead; by default, dead creatures don't suffer the rigours of ageing.

In the 2nd Edition Planescape setting, it was specified that archons and aasimon were both classically immortal - they do not age and never die unless acted upon by an outside force. Eladrins (the CG celestials) do age and die, but live a very long time and don't appear to breed, whereas the guardinals (the NG animalian celestials) are a true-breeding celestial species, who procreate, age and die like other mortals.

Almost all the fiends are also ageless and can in theory live forever. The Lower Planes tend to be somewhat deadlier than the Upper Planes however, for both obvious and non-obvious reasons!

[rel]

dragon 354 has an article on immortality. It provides an (Ex) ability called 'Endless' to represent creatures that do not die of old age.

[Thurbane]

Vampires and liches are undead; by default, dead creatures don't suffer the rigours of ageing.

Sorry to be a pest, but do you have a specific citation for that.

I completely agree it makes sense, but I'm seriously struggling to find a decent piece of RAW that spells this out.


dragon 354 has an article on immortality. It provides an (Ex) ability called 'Endless' to represent creatures that do not die of old age.

Thanks, well worth a look! :smallsmile:

[Caelestion]

I completely agree it makes sense, but I'm seriously struggling to find a decent piece of RAW that spells this out.

As I recall, being dead doesn't stop you taking any actions as per RAW. Dying does, but being dead does not.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Generally speaking, yes, I'd agree with you. However, D&D is (for whatever reason) simply different.
Ah right, gotcha. So in that sense, D&D abilities that grant a form of agelessness are not actually what you would call agelessness in real life - they postpone age, rather than prevent it. Okay, I totally get (and agree with) your point, carry on.


@Thurbane: This is from Libris Mortis, page 7:

Barring misfortune or their purposeful destruction, undead can expect to survive in good health for thousands of years, possibly even a great deal longer.

Later on, a section mentions that those who choose to become undead often strive for immortality, but it does not outright say undead are immortal. Neither does the type description in MMI. Even the lich description only says "the shadow of death does not hang over them".

[Thurbane]

As I recall, being dead doesn't stop you taking any actions as per RAW. Dying does, but being dead does not.

Absolutely: I'm not saying that the idea of those creatures aging makes any particular kind of sense, just that I find the the lack of RAW citations frustrating.

At least the "being dead" issue is somewhat covered by falling under "real world" physics/limitations. As Undead and the like do not exist in reality, it gets more troublesome to apply the same principles.

Similar to how there are (AFAIK) no listed penalties in regards to simply not sleeping for Humanoids and others, apart from the effect on recovering spells.


@Thurbane: This is from Libris Mortis, page 7:

Barring misfortune or their purposeful destruction, undead can expect to survive in good health for thousands of years, possibly even a great deal longer.
Later on, a section mentions that those who choose to become undead often strive for immortality, but it does not outright say undead are immortal. Neither does the type description in MMI. Even the lich description only says "the shadow of death does not hang over them".

Thanks for the quote.

Again, I agree wholeheartedly with the rest of what you say: lack of RAW citations is annoying.

I think maybe it's because magical aging effects (which were relatively prevalent in 2E and 1E) kind of stopped being a things in 3E (except for a few rare occurrences), so the devs probably didn't think that they needed to spell out that Undead or other relevant creature types are immune.

[ShurikVch]

Later on, a section mentions that those who choose to become undead often strive for immortality, but it does not outright say undead are immortal.Correct me if I'm wrong, but in D&D (AFAIK) only living things aging - and to be considered "living (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_living&alpha=)", you should have Con score
But really, it's more of a problem with ageing rules in general than with Undead: WotC almost don't touched this thing outside of Aging Effects (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/description.htm#age) table and (True) Dragons
For example, we're still completely unaware of what's the living expectancy for bog-standard Goblin, Ogre, or Troll
And what's about Animals? Are they also go the same Middle Age/Old/Venerable route? Does it mean they should got +1 Int at Middle Age?

[unseenmage]

There's a Time Dragon in a Dragon mag somewhere (sorry am AFB) that not only removes itself from the rigors of time as it ages but also ages victims of its breath weapon.
Edit: Dragon 359 pg 37; It also has this to say under the Ecology section, "Only disasters or other creatures can kill time dragons. The
passage of time itself cannot."

There's also an item in Arms and Equipment that removes its contents from time. It has been a long time but I remember wanting to use it to keep a diminutive playable monster alive forever.
IIRC it was a glass container of fluid of some kind.
Edit: Preserving Jar page 136; It has this to say, "Anything small enough to fit in the jar does not rot, age, or wilt. ... A Tiny or smaller creature can be placed in the jar, but without a supply of air and food it eventually dies, although the corpse never rots."