E6 vs E8 spell balance

[J-H]

I like the idea of E8 because it gives players more power and options. However, I want to avoid a few "I win" buttons. What 4th-level spells, powers, or maneuvers can reliably end an encounter for just about all level-appropriate enemy types?

I can't find any 4th-level maneuvers that are problematic.
I can't find any 4th-level cleric spells in the SpC or SRD that are big problems.
Druid/Sorc/Wiz 4: Vortex of Teeth is pretty powerful in an enclosed space, but I'm not sure if it's worth bumping it to 5th level. Without metamagic, it's still only an average of 13.5 damage per round.
Sorc/Wiz 4: Polymorph and Black Tentacles are the only two that stand out. Everything else can be reliably beaten by certain enemy types and is reasonably subject to resistances, saves, etc.

Am I overlooking anything?

[Godskook]

Running a game with E6+Gestalt-progression atm, but with an magic-mart for low-OP players. I haven't seen any notable 4th level problems, but I use Burlew's polymorph rules and shapeshift druid, so most of its not on the table. I also have a metamagic reducers houserule that wipes out 99% of the metamagic problems(can't reduce if you can't already cast, essentially).

Edit:

SRD:

Ennervation is really strong with metamagic access. Split+Maximize is expensive, but turns the spell into a SoD with the save being -touch AC-. Ouch.

Globe of Invulnerability isn't.....a fun spell to play against, and makes NPC casters who aren't casting 4ths useless.

Animate Dead is now full access. That's a game-changer for PCs who don't like divine-fluff.

Greater Invisibility, like Globe of Invulnerability, is a "bar" spell, meaning NPCs must be "X tall" to fight PCs wielding it.

Other than that? SoDs are the worst of the Sorc/Wiz core list.

[CharonsHelper]

From a non-spell perspective, one other major difference is that in E8 mid BAB classes get an iterative attack. I've heard that as a major argument to stay with E6 as it gives martials a major advantage of 6-level caster gishes.


Greater Invisibility, like Globe of Invulnerability, is a "bar" spell, meaning NPCs must be "X tall" to fight PCs wielding it.

Meh - they only need a 3rd level arcane to get Glitterdust.

Also if playing Pathfinder, every martial should have a few smog pellets to deal with invisibility (albeit inefficiently).

[AvatarVecna]

I like the idea of E8 because it gives players more power and options. However, I want to avoid a few "I win" buttons. What 4th-level spells, powers, or maneuvers can reliably end an encounter for just about all level-appropriate enemy types?

I can't find any 4th-level maneuvers that are problematic.
I can't find any 4th-level cleric spells in the SpC or SRD that are big problems.
Druid/Sorc/Wiz 4: Vortex of Teeth is pretty powerful in an enclosed space, but I'm not sure if it's worth bumping it to 5th level. Without metamagic, it's still only an average of 13.5 damage per round.
Sorc/Wiz 4: Polymorph and Black Tentacles are the only two that stand out. Everything else can be reliably beaten by certain enemy types and is reasonably subject to resistances, saves, etc.

Am I overlooking anything?

Sorcerer/Wizard

Scrying+Dimension Door (range up to 720 ft) is relatively short-range but still quite viable Scry And Die tactics. Spending 2 4th lvl slots basically locating foes and getting you and two allies (three allies with a +1 to CL from something) into range of your enemies with surprise on your side is usually going to be pretty expensive, but likely also to be extremely effective. Also, if E6 has any ability to get 4th lvl spells on rare occasions, E8 likely can do the same with 5th lvl spells to nab a proper Teleport spell to increase that teleportation range tremendously.

Greater Invisibility, particularly in a game where true seeing is likely to come up rare, makes the group rogue (to borrow an apt phrase) "Point Death Incarnate".

Animate Dead for Sorcerers and Wizards (while it was already available for Clerics) is still more people having access to some potentially significant force multipliers. This is particularly true for mages who have the resources to get a sizable undead army going (albeit not directly controlled) guarding their home or home city or what have you, and that's not something that will be easily dealt with by most anything the party has an excuse to be fighting. Still, expensive material components and it having been available in E6 anyway (just to fewer casters) makes it not as problematic as it could be.

Cleric

Cleric gets a lot of spells at this level that make dealing with certain encounters much easier, and with access to their entire list a wrong choice today only matters for today. Things like Freedom Of Movement (and to a lesser extent Death Ward, Dismissal, Restoration, and Spell Immunity) make certain tactics and enemies a lot less effective and a lot more easily dealt with. Divination, as has been mentioned, is part of the scry-and-die packages that start coming online around this level.

Druid

Reincarnate. Beyond the fact that it brings resurrection to the table, and opens up the game to reincarnate-aging-loop cheese with particularly ancient NPCs (maybe a bad thing to you, maybe a good thing), it also screws around with their race, which can have serious effect on their effective power in either direction, particularly if you decide to get cute with "DM's Choice".

Bard

They pick up another point of Inspire Courage, which is significant if they're optimizing IC to a significant degree (since it's effectively two points with the holy words feat or whatever), but still, not necessarily a huge problem. A bigger problem is Bards getting 3rd lvl spells, which has a number of neat but not necessarily broken spells (Charm Monster, Dispel Magic, Major Image), some powerful gamechangers (Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, Scrying, Haste), and then one spell that basically trivializes encounters when it's used and is widely known as an overpowered gamechanger (Glibness). Because that bear repeating: E8 Bards get Glibness.

[J-H]

Ennervation is really strong with metamagic access. Split+Maximize is expensive, but turns the spell into a SoD with the save being -touch AC-. Ouch.
If they max out at 5th level slots, I don't see a way to metamagic Enervation substantially.


Globe of Invulnerability isn't.....a fun spell to play against, and makes NPC casters who aren't casting 4ths useless.
Hmm.. for some reason I remembered this as stationary. I suppose an enemy caster could get inside the globe to cast. At 8th level, this is 1 of 4 or 5 4th-level spells per day, and reasonable to keep up. This may need to go on the "If you use it, I use it" list.



Greater Invisibility, like Globe of Invulnerability, is a "bar" spell, meaning NPCs must be "X tall" to fight PCs wielding it.
.


Meh - they only need a 3rd level arcane to get Glitterdust.

Also if playing Pathfinder, every martial should have a few smog pellets to deal with invisibility (albeit inefficiently).


Greater Invisibility, particularly in a game where true seeing is likely to come up rare, makes the group rogue (to borrow an apt phrase) "Point Death Incarnate".
Well, if the rogue attacks, they know where he is (unless he moves afterwards). At that point, we're just dealing with a 50% miss chance on attacks.
We are dealing with 5d6 sneak attack (extra ~15 per hit), and 5 attacks with TWF and Haste. That does stack up. Thoughts on bumping it to a 5th level spell?


Sorcerer/Wizard

Scrying+Dimension Door (range up to 720 ft) is relatively short-range but still quite viable Scry And Die tactics. Spending 2 4th lvl slots basically locating foes and getting you and two allies (three allies with a +1 to CL from something) into range of your enemies with surprise on your side is usually going to be pretty expensive, but likely also to be extremely effective. Also, if E6 has any ability to get 4th lvl spells on rare occasions, E8 likely can do the same with 5th lvl spells to nab a proper Teleport spell to increase that teleportation range tremendously.
Yeah... knowledge of the area to scry is a limiting factor. Teleport at the highest level actually works okay given the setting. If they teleport too much and have an error, there's a really good chance they'll end up over deep waters filled with all sorts of creatures.

I have not yet had scrying come up in any game I am running or playing in, with the exception of an NPC force using it in one of the games I'm running.



Cleric gets a lot of spells at this level that make dealing with certain encounters much easier, and with access to their entire list a wrong choice today only matters for today. Things like Freedom Of Movement (and to a lesser extent Death Ward, Dismissal, Restoration, and Spell Immunity) make certain tactics and enemies a lot less effective and a lot more easily dealt with. Divination, as has been mentioned, is part of the scry-and-die packages that start coming online around this level.
I think that's okay. A 4 person party will eat all of the 4th-level slots with a single set of Death Wards or Spell Immunities. That's a substantial investment to make for the day, and should have some return.


Reincarnate. Beyond the fact that it brings resurrection to the table, and opens up the game to reincarnate-aging-loop cheese with particularly ancient NPCs (maybe a bad thing to you, maybe a good thing), it also screws around with their race, which can have serious effect on their effective power in either direction, particularly if you decide to get cute with "DM's Choice".
I dunno, this looks fun.


They pick up another point of Inspire Courage, which is significant if they're optimizing IC to a significant degree (since it's effectively two points with the holy words feat or whatever), but still, not necessarily a huge problem. A bigger problem is Bards getting 3rd lvl spells, which has a number of neat but not necessarily broken spells (Charm Monster, Dispel Magic, Major Image), some powerful gamechangers (Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, Scrying, Haste), and then one spell that basically trivializes encounters when it's used and is widely known as an overpowered gamechanger (Glibness). Because that bear repeating: E8 Bards get Glibness.
Hm... but Bluff is not long-lasting:
"A successful Bluff check indicates that the target reacts as you wish, at least for a short time (usually 1 round or less) or believes something that you want it to believe. Bluff, however, is not a suggestion spell. "
A one-round advantage at the start of combat is useful, true...

[Godskook]

If they max out at 5th level slots, I don't see a way to metamagic Enervation substantially.

I....I was assuming 4th level slots, silly me. A Sorcerer with:

Practical Metamagic(Maxmize)
Practical Metamagic(Split)
Arcane Thesis(Ennervation)
Metamagic School Focus

Can cast 3 maximized+split Ennervations from 4th level slots before needing another source of reduction. He can cast any number from his 5th level slots. These do 8 negative levels, 4 on each touch attack roll, no save. With Empower, he does 10-12 negative levels. Other sources of reducers include Midnight Metamagic(MoI), Easy Metamagic(Dragon) and Artificer wand shenanigans that may or may not be eligible in E8. Also, Rapid Metamagic is a 9th level feat. If you lean up, that's probably available, right? And then there's also metamagic rods to cover extra metamagic uses and bring this online faster.

The big problem with the spell is that even if it can't kill a target, it *CRIPPLES* them. -8 or more on basically all rolls, 40+ damage, and now being soft enough that another Ennervation *WILL* kill you means that its likely to 1-shot everything without a strong touch-AC.

Not a problem for me because in my game, you can't stack reducers like this, but if these reducers are allowed in your game.....

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

It's already possible in E6 with Versatile Spellcaster, Dread Necromancer, and a pile of feats including the E6 Swift Metamagic feats to set up two Ocular Spell, Split Ray, Twinned, Maximized Enervations. That allows you to spend a full round action to fire four rays that can be targeted at four separate creatures and each deals eight negative levels.

E8 makes that more accessible, more RAW-legal due to the ambiguity of whether 4th level spells exist for PCs in E6, and easier access to metamagic rods (a Primordial Giant Warlock 8 has a caster level of 9th for Craft Rod qualification). You can even use Sanctum Spell to allow Enervation to be used with a Lesser Rod of Maximize.

Arcane Thesis: Enervation, Split Ray, Sanctum Spell, Ocular Spell, Twin Spell. Practical Metamagic for Split Ray, Ocular Spell, and Twin Spell. Lesser Metamagic Rod of Maximize Spell. Doesn't even need Metamagic School Focus or Versatile Spellcaster.

Enervation (4th level slot)
Sanctum Spell (+0)
Split Ray, Practical (+1)
Ocular Spell, Practical (+1)
Twin Spell, Practical (+3)
Lesser Rod of Maximize (+0)
Arcane Thesis: 5 metamagic feats applied, -5 metamagic cost

Cast two of those using two 4th level slots (or four 3rd with Versatile Spellcaster), and for the next eight hours, you can one-shot four living opponents. You can even use Swift Invisibility or similar to deny your targets most of their AC bonuses that would apply to their touch AC.

[J-H]

"Metamagic reducers don't stack" added to rule list.
Also added to the "anything the party uses will be used against them" list...

Thankfully, nobody has done any of that in any of the games I'm running so far.

I'm thinking about switching the 4th-level buff spells - or perhaps all 4th level spells - to a 1 round casting time. That imposes a bit of an additional cost on using them in combat while still leaving them viable.
Not sure I like that as a solution though, vs. simply picking out improved invisibility and a couple of others as exceptions that take 1 round to cast.

[Coidzor]

Animate Dead is now full access. That's a game-changer for PCs who don't like divine-fluff.

It's nice for them, but it doesn't change the balance of the game itself.

[DEMON]

Let's not forget Divine Power, which turns every Cleric, even of the cloistered variety, into a full BAB class.
Also qualifies them for the Holy Warrior feat (and Blade of Force, but that was already available to them even in E6).
Same for Archivists, although they have a harder time persisting their buffs without multiclassing.

Also, Fighter's capstone feat is irrelevant in E8 (even if you extended it to a BAB of 10, I don't think there's many feats with that prereq), Ranger's Wildshape and/or Animal Companion features are now completely overshadowed by Druid's versions (on the plus side, Exalted Wild Shape will be open to Ranger's as well, so there's a big boost to the ability right there).

[Cosi]

Globe of Invulnerability isn't.....a fun spell to play against, and makes NPC casters who aren't casting 4ths useless.

Unless they know dispel magic.


Animate Dead is now full access. That's a game-changer for PCs who don't like divine-fluff.

But that doesn't change the game for, well, the game.


Because that bear repeating: E8 Bards get Glibness.

E6 Beguilers already got glibness.


If they max out at 5th level slots, I don't see a way to metamagic Enervation substantially.

Why are you giving people in E8 5th level spell slots? I get that the original E6 rules allowed for limited advancement after 6th with feats, but that always struck me as kind of dumb. If you want to cap the game at 8th, cap it at 8th. Don't cap it at "8th plus some extra goodies".

[J-H]

I thought I remembered the E6 feat list including some "Get a 4th level slot" or "Get a 4th level spell 1/day" feats.

[Cosi]

I thought I remembered the E6 feat list including some "Get a 4th level slot" or "Get a 4th level spell 1/day" feats.

It does, but it shouldn't. If you're carving out everything above 6th because it doesn't fit the game, why are you adding back parts of it? If you want 4th level spells, why not just go up to 8th? If you want 5th level spells, why not just go up to 10th?

[Mendicant]

Because you're altering the pacing. E6 asymptotically tops out at around ECL 8, and it was always meant to.

[Godskook]

Because you're altering the pacing. E6 asymptotically tops out at around ECL 8, and it was always meant to.

Citation needed.

According to every ruleset I've read, adding post-ECL-6 content to an E6 is at best optional.

[Gullintanni]

I thought I remembered the E6 feat list including some "Get a 4th level slot" or "Get a 4th level spell 1/day" feats.


It does, but it shouldn't. If you're carving out everything above 6th because it doesn't fit the game, why are you adding back parts of it? If you want 4th level spells, why not just go up to 8th? If you want 5th level spells, why not just go up to 10th?

Ugh - I don't understand why this bit of misinformation is so pervasive. E6 has three design philosophies:

1) Cautious
2) Gestalt
3) Lean-Up

Under the Cautious approach, no provision is made for access to fourth level spells or slots via feats.

Under the Gestalt approach it is recommended that any ability normally available to 6th level characters be made available via feat chains.

The Lean-Up approach says:

"6th level plus many feats is clearly more powerful than
6th level. Thus, it won’t be game-breaking
to allow feat chains that bring characters
from 6th level to 8th level, although this
progression should be quite slow."

If you're not playing an E6 game formatted for the Lean-Up approach, it's not just a question of "spend a feat, get a 4th level spell of your choice". There are only two spells made available as feats. The feats are:

Restoration
Prerequisites: 6th level, ability to cast 3rd-level divine spells, Wisdom 18, Healing
9 Ranks
Benefit: You can use Restoration, as the
spell (paying the material component),
with a casting time of 1 hour.

Stone to Flesh
Prerequisites: 6th level, ability to cast 3rd-level arcane spells, Intelligence 18, Craft
(Alchemy) 9 Ranks
Benefit: You can use stone to flesh, as
the spell, with an expensive and secret
magical ingredient with a market value
of 1000 gp and a casting time of 1 day

The only other provision for higher level PC magic is this:

Q: What if I want there to be a higher
level magical effect, but still use E6?

A: The rules for rituals in Unearthed
Arcana are an excellent fit for E6, to
support things like opening portals
to another dimension, higher-level
divinations, and so on. When a spell
is a 3-day event requiring 20 mages,
it’s more of a plot point than a spell
itself, and that makes it a great a
springboard for challenging the
players.

Essentially, this means higher level spells are available exclusively via DM fiat.

[johnbragg]

It does, but it shouldn't. If you're carving out everything above 6th because it doesn't fit the game, why are you adding back parts of it? If you want 4th level spells, why not just go up to 8th? If you want 5th level spells, why not just go up to 10th?

IT changes the default assumption from "Yes" to "No", or at least "not necessarily"

In both E6 and "straight" 3.5, the assumption is that Alter Self works the way the book says it does. RAW is the default. The DM can houserule, but he or she pretty much has to say so beforehand. But polymorph is another story. In straight 3.5, polymorph is in the book as a 4th level spell, you can cast 4th level spells, RAW, RAI. In E6, the RAW for polymorph means precisely jack squat. So the polymorphing, scrying, teleportation, planar binding, raising the dead or whatever effects cannot be assumed to work the same way they do in the PHB or whatever sourcebook they came from. They are only available as epic-level effects, with the UA rituals rules recommended. That gives the DM the discretion and the responsibility to determine how exactly they work, what exactly the limitations and drawbacks are.

(Notice I didn't mention non-spell abilities, because those are never the problem.)

[Godskook]

If you're not playing an E6 game formatted for the Lean-Up approach, it's not just a question of "spend a feat, get a 4th level spell of your choice". There are only two spells made available as feats.

The one point of contention I have with your post:

"All of these feats should be considered suggestions – each E6 game is different and it is always up to the individual GM what they want to allow."

There are no prescribed additional feats in the E6 ruleset that are "made available" by anything other than DM Fiat under the Gestalt or Cautious approaches.

[Gullintanni]

The one point of contention I have with your post:

"All of these feats should be considered suggestions – each E6 game is different and it is always up to the individual GM what they want to allow."

There are no prescribed additional feats in the E6 ruleset that are "made available" by anything other than DM Fiat under the Gestalt or Cautious approaches.

Immediately preceding the list of feats in the E6 publication, including the feats for those two spells, the author writes the following:

"EXTRA FEATS
I consider these feats to be necessary
even with the Cautious Approach; along
with the SRD feats, they provide for a
minimal level of continuing advancement
for E6 characters, and address issues like
removing negative levels."

Make of that what you like, but my interpretation of the author's writing is that the only way in which those feats involve DM Fiat is the same way in which all 3.5 content is subject to DM Fiat via rule zero.

EDIT: I'm also not sure where you're pulling the quoted text from. It's not in the E6 pdf published by the author. Is that from the ENWorld posts?

[Godskook]

Immediately preceding the list of feats in the E6 publication, including the feats for those two spells, the author writes the following:

"EXTRA FEATS
I consider these feats to be necessary
even with the Cautious Approach; along
with the SRD feats, they provide for a
minimal level of continuing advancement
for E6 characters, and address issues like
removing negative levels."

Make of that what you like, but my interpretation of the author's writing is that the only way in which those feats involve DM Fiat is the same way in which all 3.5 content is subject to DM Fiat via rule zero.

EDIT: I'm also not sure where you're pulling the quoted text from. It's not in the E6 pdf published by the author. Is that from the ENWorld posts?

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?206323-E6-The-Game-Inside-D-amp-D

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?200754-E6-The-Game-Inside-D-amp-D-(new-revision)

The first thread listed has my text, but not yours. The second, yours. I checked the PDF, and it only has yours.

The thread I was looking at is -newer- than yours, and by the same guy, but this could be a clerical issue.

[Mendicant]

Citation needed.

According to every ruleset I've read, adding post-ECL-6 content to an E6 is at best optional.

The monster guidelines straight-up assume that past a certain number of feats, monsters of up to CR 12 should be considered. The only way that makes sense is if an E6 character at some point becomes meaningfully equivalent with a level 7 or level 8 character, regardless of whether they're getting "post-ECL-6 content."

If you actually play out E6 for an extended period of time past 6th level, the accumulation of feats will drive player power steadily upwards. Even in rulesets that don't take the "lean upwards" paradigm, the mounded up bonuses will eventually get an E6 character to something that looks an awful lot like an 8th level character. This is especially true if that character is getting epic gear. Now, is this a lower-tier version of ECL 8? Probably, but you'll have a hard time arguing that a 6th-level barbarian with 16 bonus feats is meaningfully weaker than an 8th-level barbarian.

[Gullintanni]

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?206323-E6-The-Game-Inside-D-amp-D

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?200754-E6-The-Game-Inside-D-amp-D-(new-revision)

The first thread listed has my text, but not yours. The second, yours. I checked the PDF, and it only has yours.

The thread I was looking at is -newer- than yours, and by the same guy, but this could be a clerical issue.

Yeah, I agree. I'm not really sure it matters in the grand scheme of things. Whether or not you adopt the author's suggested feats is immaterial to the overall point that there's no clear path to paying for 4th level spells through feats on a one-to-one basis.

To the OP; I offer one specific piece of advice. It's unlikely that you'll be able to name every piece of game breaking material that gets introduced by increasing the level cap to 8 from 6. If this is for a game to be played at the table, definitely pay attention to the advice here, it's almost all good advice.

But talk to your players and let them know that you may have to make adjustments to the game on an ad hoc basis if something becomes problematic - and try to be familiar with the design goals of your players' characters, so that you can see whether or not their builds are problematic from the start. Nothing worse than investing in a character, surprising the DM, and having the DM quash your main schtick. :smalltongue:

[flappeercraft]

Celerity could be troublesome, especially if you players get access to daze immunity somehow

[Coidzor]

The one point of contention I have with your post:

"All of these feats should be considered suggestions – each E6 game is different and it is always up to the individual GM what they want to allow."

There are no prescribed additional feats in the E6 ruleset that are "made available" by anything other than DM Fiat under the Gestalt or Cautious approaches.

:smallconfused:

If you stop advancement completely and the characters no longer even get any feats as they progress, rather than just precluding certain "capstone" feats, then you're really not playing E6 anymore, at least as how the community views it.

E6 is encapsulated in the idea of, stop leveling at level 6, but you keep getting feats every so often.

Otherwise it's just... a leveling cap, there's no Epic to it.

If you meant that it's still E6 even if you don't use some or all of the cap-breaking capstone feats, then, yeah. There's still a few worth taking another look at before axing all of them as a blanket thing, though.

[Godskook]

:smallconfused:

If you stop advancement completely and the characters no longer even get any feats as they progress, rather than just precluding certain "capstone" feats, then you're really not playing E6 anymore, at least as how the community views it.

E6 is encapsulated in the idea of, stop leveling at level 6, but you keep getting feats every so often.

Otherwise it's just... a leveling cap, there's no Epic to it.

If you meant that it's still E6 even if you don't use some or all of the cap-breaking capstone feats, then, yeah. There's still a few worth taking another look at before axing all of them as a blanket thing, though.

You seem to not be understanding where my position is, so I'm just going to state it and let you re-assert:

It is normal for E6 characters to have a surplus of feats, but my position is concerning feats, not already built into normal 3.5, that allow access to content past level 6. I'm not saying anything against having 32 bajillion feats that are available prior to the cap, naturally.

[Calimehter]

Wall of Salt is another 4th level spell to watch out for that I haven't seen mentioned yet. Not because it is all that powerful in a fight, but because it can be used to create absurd amounts of wealth in any area that uses the DMG pricing for salt.

[Endarire]

E8 allows Wizard5/Incantatrix3 (or WizardX/full castingY) for party persistomancy! It technically also allows Spelldancer for personal persistomancy, but so does E6 if built that way.