Regarding the Silhouette Archetype

[LevROLL]

I began looking at the Silhouette archetype for the Psychic Warrior just recently. As I read more, I began to develop some questions I was hoping someone with more insight into the mechanics of Pathfinder itself or the inner workings of how these abilities were meant to- or meant not to- interact with one another.

I want to begin this question part by saying that all of this is from the perspective of a Brutal Slayer Stalker taking levels in the Silhouette archetype for Psychic Warrior. I'll also try to separate question strings into different posts. And sorry in advance for how long-winded this will get.

First up, I just had a few questions about Follow-up and its Shadow Talent upgrades.

Follow-up states "Once per round, when its creator misses an attack, the shadow can make an attack against the creature its creator missed as a free action if it is able to do so (even if it isn’t its turn). If the attack that missed took a penalty for being an iterative attack, this attack takes the same penalty. If the shadow’s creator possesses the Split Shadows talent, his shadows can use this ability for each others’ missed attacks as well (though each can still only do so once per round)."

This seems pretty self-explanatory; I assume that, for example, if I have two iterative attacks at +6/+1 and my second attack misses and I choose to use Follow-up then my Shadow uses its own highest BAB attack -5. However, what if I miss a non-iterative attack such as those granted by fighting with two weapons? Does it simply take the same negatives i.e. if I have attacks at +4/+4/-1/-1 when fighting with two weapons and I miss my fourth attack and choose to use Follow-up, what penalties does the Shadow take?

In the same vein, if I do possess Split Shadows, which grants two Shadows, does Follow-up allow them to make their attacks any time I miss or does the second Shadow only gain Follow-up if the first one misses? For example, if I have 3 attacks at +4/+4/-1 and I miss my second attack, triggering Follow-up, can the second Shadow use its own Follow-up should I miss my third attack? Or do they share Follow-up's "Once per round" clause amongst themselves except for when the first misses an attack, as the last line of Follow-up implies?

Next there is Twin Blades which says, "Whenever the silhouette is wielding multiple weapons, his shadow gains one additional shadow weapon that works exactly like the first. When the shadow uses its follow-up ability, it can make an attack with both of its weapons, taking the normal penalties for fighting with two weapons (in addition to the potential iterative penalties)." In conjunction with this is Follow-up Flurry which says, "Once per round, when the silhouette’s shadow hits a creature with the attack granted by its follow-up ability, the shadow can make another attack against that creature at a –5 penalty. This attack is in addition to the normal limit on the shadow’s attacks. The silhouette must have a base attack bonus of at least +6 to select this shadow talent." And Follow-up Frenzy which states the same except at a -10 penalty for another additional attack.

There's a few questions here about the interactions between everything above. First, can both Shadows make use of Flurry and Frenzy or does one using them expend the "Once per turn" clause? Second, do the penalties for Flurry and Frenzy apply to the Shadow's highest bonus or do they apply to the already penalized attack bonus they gain for you missing attacks? And finally, for this, do the Shadows make only one attack when triggering Follow-up Flurry and Frenzy or does Twin Blades allow for two attacks each time?

[LevROLL]

Now for my next few questions. Man, I really hope someone actually reads this. Anyway.

A short one, first. Shadow Skills says, " At 4th level and again at 7th level, the silhouette chooses a skill he has ranks in. His shadow can use his bonus with that skill instead of its own.." Does this mean it uses the entire skill bonus, such as ranks, proficiency, and any miscellaneous bonuses like those granted from feats?

Next is from Shadow Bond, part of which states, "A shadow possesses and can use any combat and teamwork feats its creator possesses, even if it does not meet their prerequisites..." Is this meant to just wave the normal prerequisites for feats like class and stat requirements? Or can it give the Shadow access to things it shouldn't normally have? For example, if, as a Stalker, I take the combat feat Extra Stalker Art and get Critical Edge from it, would this feat have any effect once it passed onto the Shadow? Would the Shadow gain Critical Edge or be able to pick its own Stalker Art? Or are such interactions meant to do nothing at all?

Next is the last, I think. And it's the one I've had the most difficulty with. Say I have the Piercing Thunder discipline and am in the Twin Thunder Stance, which says, "While you maintain this stance, you can wield normally two-handed weapons as one-handed weapons, and you gain the benefits of the Two-Weapon Fighting feat while using two discipline weapons in either hand (even if you do not meet its prerequisites). If you already possess the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, you may instead wield one or both of weapons as light weapons..." Say I am wielding two two-handed weapons using this stance. The Shadow, without support from Martial Training, has no way to learn this stance. However, the Shadow's Shadow Weaponry states, "A shadow can always wield any weapons its silhouette can..." Assuming this statement is absolute and the Shadow can always use its own version of whatever weapon I am wielding- in this case, two two-handed weapons- what penalties does it take for attacking using Twin Blades?

[Epic Legand]

I cannot find the Silhouette Archetype , link please?

[LevROLL]

There is a playtest on this forum for it. Psionics Augmented: Psychic Warrior. I'd provide a link but I can't yet.

I, personally, have the pdfs for Psionics Augmented: Psychic Warrior and I don't think the things from it really show up anywhere. At a quick glance, though, the Silhouette archetype from the pdf and the playtest seem to be very similar.

[Forrestfire]

Hello! Author of the product here, sorry for the delay on this. It is indeed published (Psionics Augmented: Psychic Warriors II), though I can't quite remember what changed from playtest to final product.


Follow-up states "Once per round, when its creator misses an attack, the shadow can make an attack against the creature its creator missed as a free action if it is able to do so (even if it isn’t its turn). If the attack that missed took a penalty for being an iterative attack, this attack takes the same penalty. If the shadow’s creator possesses the Split Shadows talent, his shadows can use this ability for each others’ missed attacks as well (though each can still only do so once per round)."

This seems pretty self-explanatory; I assume that, for example, if I have two iterative attacks at +6/+1 and my second attack misses and I choose to use Follow-up then my Shadow uses its own highest BAB attack -5. However, what if I miss a non-iterative attack such as those granted by fighting with two weapons? Does it simply take the same negatives i.e. if I have attacks at +4/+4/-1/-1 when fighting with two weapons and I miss my fourth attack and choose to use Follow-up, what penalties does the Shadow take?

The shadow's attack from Follow-Up would be done at its highest attack bonus (it applying any appropriate penalties to its attack roll that it qualifies for, but not inheriting your own penalties). Thus, if that fourth attack is an off-hand from Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (not quite an iterative), then it is very likely making its follow-up without the same penalties.


In the same vein, if I do possess Split Shadows, which grants two Shadows, does Follow-up allow them to make their attacks any time I miss or does the second Shadow only gain Follow-up if the first one misses? For example, if I have 3 attacks at +4/+4/-1 and I miss my second attack, triggering Follow-up, can the second Shadow use its own Follow-up should I miss my third attack? Or do they share Follow-up's "Once per round" clause amongst themselves except for when the first misses an attack, as the last line of Follow-up implies?

Each can use Follow-Up individually once per round (even to help each other). They're separate creatures.


Next there is Twin Blades which says, "Whenever the silhouette is wielding multiple weapons, his shadow gains one additional shadow weapon that works exactly like the first. When the shadow uses its follow-up ability, it can make an attack with both of its weapons, taking the normal penalties for fighting with two weapons (in addition to the potential iterative penalties)." In conjunction with this is Follow-up Flurry which says, "Once per round, when the silhouette’s shadow hits a creature with the attack granted by its follow-up ability, the shadow can make another attack against that creature at a –5 penalty. This attack is in addition to the normal limit on the shadow’s attacks. The silhouette must have a base attack bonus of at least +6 to select this shadow talent." And Follow-up Frenzy which states the same except at a -10 penalty for another additional attack.

There's a few questions here about the interactions between everything above. First, can both Shadows make use of Flurry and Frenzy or does one using them expend the "Once per turn" clause? Second, do the penalties for Flurry and Frenzy apply to the Shadow's highest bonus or do they apply to the already penalized attack bonus they gain for you missing attacks? And finally, for this, do the Shadows make only one attack when triggering Follow-up Flurry and Frenzy or does Twin Blades allow for two attacks each time?

As it's written, Twin Blades adds the TWF attack to Follow-Up, but not to Follow-Up Flurry and Follow-Up Frenzy. Flurry and Frenzy both add two extra attacks that take a mounting penalty on top of the starting attack bonus of the Follow-Up attack. If you're replacing an iterative, then you'd start with the iterative penalty (on both of the TWF attacks), then add –5 and –10 onto the Flurry and Frenzy attacks.


A short one, first. Shadow Skills says, " At 4th level and again at 7th level, the silhouette chooses a skill he has ranks in. His shadow can use his bonus with that skill instead of its own.." Does this mean it uses the entire skill bonus, such as ranks, proficiency, and any miscellaneous bonuses like those granted from feats?

Yes. It uses your bonus instead of its own, full stop. :smallsmile:


Next is from Shadow Bond, part of which states, "A shadow possesses and can use any combat and teamwork feats its creator possesses, even if it does not meet their prerequisites..." Is this meant to just wave the normal prerequisites for feats like class and stat requirements? Or can it give the Shadow access to things it shouldn't normally have? For example, if, as a Stalker, I take the combat feat Extra Stalker Art and get Critical Edge from it, would this feat have any effect once it passed onto the Shadow? Would the Shadow gain Critical Edge or be able to pick its own Stalker Art? Or are such interactions meant to do nothing at all?

It gains the combat and teamwork feats, even if they don't meet the prerequisites. This doesn't give them the ability to use feats they don't have the ability to trigger, though. They would gain Extra Stalker Art, but since they're not a stalker and don't have the stalker arts class feature, they can't add it to their list of known arts. Or possibly, they would gain one and just get it (though it might not work). This is a place where the rules are unclear, and it's not something we fully accounted for, my apologies. Though this is not, strictly, what the rules say (and should not be treated as errata), I would discuss it with your GM to let your shadows have Critical Edge as well. That is my recommendation as the author, at least.


Next is the last, I think. And it's the one I've had the most difficulty with. Say I have the Piercing Thunder discipline and am in the Twin Thunder Stance, which says, "While you maintain this stance, you can wield normally two-handed weapons as one-handed weapons, and you gain the benefits of the Two-Weapon Fighting feat while using two discipline weapons in either hand (even if you do not meet its prerequisites). If you already possess the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, you may instead wield one or both of weapons as light weapons..." Say I am wielding two two-handed weapons using this stance. The Shadow, without support from Martial Training, has no way to learn this stance. However, the Shadow's Shadow Weaponry states, "A shadow can always wield any weapons its silhouette can..." Assuming this statement is absolute and the Shadow can always use its own version of whatever weapon I am wielding- in this case, two two-handed weapons- what penalties does it take for attacking using Twin Blades?

If you can wield a weapon, the shadow can too. It doesn't matter what you needed to do to wield it. However, because it doesn't have the Twin Thunder stance, its TWF penalties may be higher than expected (because the off-hand is not a light weapon).

Hope this helps! The silhouette was a complex archetype and you seem to have found some odd bits that playtesting didn't. I'm glad you're enjoying the class, though. :smallsmile:

[LevROLL]

Glorious answers

Thank you so much for taking the time to answer. I played this just last night, actually; all in all, it looks like I got some things right and got some things wrong. I'll be sure to change the parts I had that may have been incorrect.

[Forrestfire]

How're you enjoying it, if you don't mind me asking?

[Air0r]

I put together a silhouette recently, still waiting on campaign to start to finish rolling hp. in case the dm wants to do odd things with it. conceptually, this guy would be hidden, using his shadows to do the fighting, occasionally manifesting powers as needed. the whole concept seems fun. I recall asking some questions over on the paizo forum a few weeks back, and they may have even been answered, but I don't remember.

[Air0r]

in case you want to see it: silhouette (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BD7ijaeeLUJJru3Nqc1pEX_pcIh3lSgHDPeCG36nnPM/edit?usp=sharing)